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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Table of Contents
Pre Coven of Light Setup
1. Photos and Current List (Below)
3. A Detailed Tactics Article on Brewmaster_D's List
2. Versus Orcs & Goblins (With Shadow Archmage): Pre Match and Match
3. On Phoenix Guard and Spearmen in a lore of Shadow list: Here and here. Further discussion here
4. Versus Lizardmen (Shadow lore on Archmage): Here
5. Versus Tomb Kings (Current List): Link
6. Versus Warriors of Chaos (Chosen list): Link
7. Versus Lizardmen (Current list): Link
8. Versus Dwarves (one off battle, Current list): Link
9. Versus Warriors of Chaos (Chosen list round 2) : Link

Coven of Light
1. Preliminary formation Link
2. First match vs. Orcs & Goblins: Link
3. Vs. Warriors of Chaos (also known as when the Coven of Light goes horribly, horribly wrong): Link
4. vs. a very illegal Empire list: Link
5. Regarding the flexibility of the lore of light: Link
6. Regarding my choice to use the Invincible Archmage over the Book of Hoeth: Link
7. Why I chose to include the Ring of Corin: Link
8. Versus all comers Warriors of Chaos opponent: Link
9. Various casting strategies using the Coven of Light, brought to you by the Ulthuan community: Link
10. Versus stegadon heavy Lizardmen: Link
11. Versus a very legal Empire list: Link
12. Versus a Thorek Gunline: Link
13. A detailed tactics article on the Lore of Light: The Lore of Light and You
14. Versus a Chaos Dragon Warriors of Chaos List: Link
15. @2200 Points vs. Dual Hellpit Skaven: Link
16. Versus a Khorne Daemon Army: Link
17. Versus a Fey Enchantress led Bretonian army: Link

Tournament #1 - (2200 point list)


Game 1, vs. Ogre Kingdoms - Link
Game 2, vs. Skaven - Link
Game 3, vs. Ogre Kingdoms - Link

18. Versus Ogre Kingdoms - Link

This is the current rendition of my list:

Archmage, Level 4, Jewel of the Dusk (Lore of Light)
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (Pha's, Banishment)
Mage, Ring of Corin, Gem of Courage (Lore of Light)
Mage, Anullian Crystal (Lore of Light)

35 x Spearmen, Full Command
14 x Archers, Musician
11 x Archers, Musician

14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Standard of Balance
14 x Swordmasters, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
18 x White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Dragonhorn
11 x White Lions, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame

2 x Great Eagles

A couple photos of my High Elves so far:

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Sat May 12, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 33 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Oh, this sounds like it'll shape up to be a really nice thread with a totally different focus. In a way, I kind of wish I'd gone for the Coven of Light list since so many people are doing cavalrylists. Whatever, I'm having fun playing and hopefully my opponents would rather face heavy cavalry than S7 bolt spam.

Anyways, a few comments:

- Again, not a fan of the expensive archmage. I'd rather want him with the Archers, with just the wand. This allows you to beef the specials. This also splits your points - making it hard for your opponent to dedicate. As it stands now, the PG need to die. Expect just about everything to be thrown their way.

- Core looks good. I'm finding Banner of Swiftness isn't adding much to the way I play so I'm considering something else. I suppose your BSB will go with Spears in which case Gleaming Pennant is pointless. Anyway, solid core!

- Specials... Again, I don't believe White Lions are worth taking unless they have a clear role. In your army, I don't see this role: you have 2 anvils as is and Shadow should ensure that high strength isn't necessary. Make them Swordmasters instead - 2 units of 14 sounds about right, with no champions (single std. bearer with BoeF in one). Also, I don't like the Bladelord. Running up against super-killy characters on their own isn't that common, even with 12 you're likely to be Steadfast after 1 round (meaning you get to charge him in your turn if he wins the 2nd round of combat).

Now I suppose you weren't really looking for army advice but I couldn't help myself ;)

When does the campaign begin? Is there any teaming up etc? What thoughts do you have with regards to what units to lose/include if you lose/gain points to spend?

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Hey Curu! Loving your blog too, part of what inspired me to start up this one!

I am absolutely looking for list advice/criticism. At worst, it gives me a chance to defend my choices, and at best it will allow me to fine tune the list before or during the campaign.

Quote:
Again, not a fan of the expensive archmage. I'd rather want him with the Archers, with just the wand. This allows you to beef the specials. This also splits your points - making it hard for your opponent to dedicate. As it stands now, the PG need to die. Expect just about everything to be thrown their way.


I can definitely see your issue with this guy. The reason I like him is twofold: I already have a level 2 Mage which I need to "babysit" because he is defenseless. Having two vulnerable mages and only two non-combat blocks limits my options in terms of deployment - I can deploy the unkillable Archmage much more freely, basically putting him where he is needed as opposed to where he is less likely to die.

I also love using this guy aggressively. He has such a psychological impact on my opponents, who know exactly what he can do. Plus, bonus points to him for going against two chaos warriors players in this campaign who *must* issue challenges with their heroes. They basically are forced to ask you to render them ineffective.

Quote:
Specials... Again, I don't believe White Lions are worth taking unless they have a clear role. In your army, I don't see this role: you have 2 anvils as is and Shadow should ensure that high strength isn't necessary. Make them Swordmasters instead


This is something I would definitely consider. I have, however, learned the value of these guys versus things like a 1+ Armour save Chaos Lord that requires rerolls to wound. It's a tough call on this one, as the difference is pretty small in the end. Tell you what, I'll play one game with the lions, and if we run into a scenario where the swordmasters would have clearly outperformed them, you can give me the ole "I told you so" and I'll switch them out :P

Quote:
2 units of 14 sounds about right, with no champions (single std. bearer with BoeF in one). Also, I don't like the Bladelord. Running up against super-killy characters on their own isn't that common, even with 12 you're likely to be Steadfast after 1 round (meaning you get to charge him in your turn if he wins the 2nd round of combat).


I think the Warriors are the only army I risk seeing the killy solo lord. I know one (the fellow from my last battle report) is fond of a lord on a disc. 14 makes me much more comfortable than 12 though, so I might take a couple off the Phoenix Guard to accomodate it. Part of what I love about the Phoenix Guard as well is, like you said, everything goes in to killing them. The banner of Sorcery makes this imperative, and those guys can absorb silly amounts of damage. My hope is that people will over-commit to destroying them, and allow my smaller units to position themselves favourably.

Part of what I really like about this list is that it's difficult to determine where the threat is going to come from. Lore of Shadows allows me to transfer force around the table very quickly, and turn what look like sure bet combats for an opponent into a landslide defeat.

You never lose points in the games, so this is kind of my baseline list. You just might not have as much to add as your opponent. Adding a hundred points to this list will let me more comfortably have units of 14 of the heavy hitters, and a block of 19 phoenix guard (assuming they'll need a few more to accomplish the same thing as the game scales up). After that, I'll need to give some thought to what unit I would add - likely some more mobility, probably in the form of another unit of Dragon Princes. I'm definitely lacking in this department. Ranged firepower is also an option.

The campaign begins tonight, when we pick our capital cities etc., and issue the first challenges. Then we're scheduling the first games over the next week. Everything goes, so there will be teaming up, betrayals and everything in between. I'll try to snap a picture of the gameboard as well.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Having two vulnerable mages and only two non-combat blocks limits my options in terms of deployment -

I tried this for the first time recently and I hated it! Having one is bad enough!

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I know one (the fellow from my last battle report) is fond of a lord on a disc.

Single bolts are an option here if you can pick up an RBT or two.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Again, not a fan of the expensive archmage. I'd rather want him with the Archers, with just the wand.

I think this is risky, unless you're taking Life.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
The seerstaff on my metal mage allows me to pick the spells which will be most useful versus a particular opponent

My understanding is that you have to pick the spells when you write your army list.

Interesting list, I like the multiple combat units.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Ok, we've got the board set up and the first challenges issued. I ended up smack dab in the middle of the map, next to two sets of mountains. My goal is to pull off an early commanding victory and earn enough points to take one of the mountain pieces nearby and begin what I like to call "Operation Moneybags". Mountain tiles are harder to take, and I can mine up gold to start bolstering my army right away.

I got first pick of matchups, so as long as nobody else challenged me as well, I would get to dictate my first opponent. I issued a challenge to the Orcs & Goblins player, then set to work sparking a rivalry between the other players. Recently, the two Chaos Warrior players had a match to see who was the chosen of the gods. I brought up this match to the defeated Warrior from this match, and as planned, they set up another match between themselves. The lizardman then joined in on the challenge, and the Tomb Kings as well, making the matchups:

High Elves (me) vs. Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings & Warriors of Chaos vs. Lizardmen & Warriors of Chaos

The players in this campaign are all people that I've played with pretty frequently, so I have a pretty good handle on their respective styles of playing.

So what do I know about my opponent?

He favours playing all orc armies. He loves big blocks of troops - typically 6x5 - and recently has been on a chariot kick. It wouldn't surprise me to see 3 chariots on the field. He generally takes 1 level 4, then a combat hero or two to add some punch to his blocks. I'd also expect to see some trolls in there for some added punch.

So what's my plan?

Well, first weakness I see is that 4 6 wide blocks on 25mm bases takes up a huge amount of real estate. The blocks are pretty daunting looking when they're deployed, however they're also very cumbersome and slow. Refused flank is the name of the game here, allowing me to focus on one block at a time. Without much ranged threat (after all, war machines are crewed by goblins!) I'll try to hold my vulnerable flank with my steadfast block of spearmen - 7 ranks to his 5 - and punch through the other and encircle him.

The Shadow Archmage should really earn his points here. Big blocks like that make pit of shades and pendulum pretty invaluable. I'll try to punish him early and force him to move those blocks quickly and hopefully open up a hole for my flanking forces. I can also use my eagles and miasma to slow down or hinder one flank of his army to further divide them.

To deal with the chariots, I'll try to put down a suppression zone with my lion chariot and unit of dragon princes - with similar movement, it will hopefully make him a little more conservative with how he uses those.

Quote:
My understanding is that you have to pick the spells when you write your army list.


Hm. The wording is "The bearer may choose his spells, instead of rolling for them at the start of the game". To me this implies that when I would normally roll for the spells, I can just choose them instead. I could be wrong though?

I'm looking forward to this game - I haven't had a recent opportunity to test my mettle against a horde army.

Any feedback on my strategy, list or things to look out for would be much appreciated!

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Page 134 main rulebook, lower left. You must pick spells from Seerstaff when you write the list.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:29 am 
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I've given some thought to the feedback I've gotten so far, and made a couple small but important changes to my list:

Quote:
Page 134 main rulebook, lower left. You must pick spells from Seerstaff when you write the list.


Thank you very much for directing me to this! This really changes what I was hoping to accomplish with that item; I don't think it's near worth the 30 points if I don't get to choose my spells as a reaction to my opponent. As such, I'm swapping it out in favour of the Annulian Crystal, which I've had much success with in previous games. Searing Doom is always available, and provides a solution for what would otherwise be very difficult for this list to deal with: heavily armoured units.

I have also given quite a bit of thought to the difference between White Lions and swordmasters in this list. Curu posed the question of what niche the Lions filled. My first reaction was that they're more resistant to shooting, and provide higher strength attacks than the swordmasters, and were a great answer to tough, regenerating monsters.

While I still think this holds true, a couple things occurred to me:

1. While the lions are more capable of soaking up shooting, people see my swordmasters and prioritize them higher with shooting. Those lion cloaks aren't doing me much good if they're not taking any fire, which really reduces the significance of them. I might as well take the combat edge in this case, since either way they'll be shooting at swordmasters.

2. The Lions have higher strength, which can be very useful, however within the context of this list, I have several magical answers to high toughness/heavily armoured troops. If I were using lore of light, I think the lions would be a strong choice, as they are great recipients of those buffs. But as it stands, the swordmasters synergize better with the lore of Shadows in my opinion.

So, my stance changed on these guys - lions out, swordmasters in. Time to move out of my comfort zone :P

I also beefed up the swordmaster units to 14 each. I love the 2x7 formation, and didn't feel I was losing much from the Phoenix Guard, which was where I was pulling the points from. I can start beefing up the Phoenix Guard once I start collecting the gold from my planned network of mines. Trust me, it all works out in my head.

I still have 10 points to fiddle with as well.

Posted some pictures of my army as well, albeit not necessarily the exact units from this particular list.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:42 am 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
"Operation Moneybags".

8)

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Thank you very much for directing me to this! This really changes what I was hoping to accomplish with that item; I don't think it's near worth the 30 points if I don't get to choose my spells as a reaction to my opponent

Seerstaff used to be great on a Lvl2 and I've been running it on my Lvl3 under 8th but you're right, having to write the spells into your list really hurts it. Majority of games it was great, my pre-selected spells worked well but in some games I really missed the ability to roll for something different. A Lvl3 with Silver Wand or a level 4 is usually (but not always) better off without Seer IMHO.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Searing Doom is always available, and provides a solution for what would otherwise be very difficult for this list to deal with: heavily armoured units.

The Metal Mage is a bit at the mercy of the dice as I think his spells are a bit enemy-dependent. I ran a lvl1 but against many opponents Searing Doom is ineffective (though great against some). Slightly better chance with a Lvl2 I guess.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:14 am 
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Go Radiant Gem of Hoeth mage

Commander, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Lore of Metal.

This guy is almost as good in magic as the level 2 mage, but is multipurposed and cheaper.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Loving the pics by the way!

:)

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Looking forward to reading some reports. I like what you've done with the DPs. I've gone for the classical blue/white Elves but am looking for a different paint scheme for my DPs. These have given me a few ideas.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:22 am 
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I'm liking the changes you've made, very much so in fact!

For your level 2, I would humbly suggest either High Magic or Shadow Magic. The first one is an excellent lore for a support caster: It allows you to seriously put the hurt on an enemy magic phase and it provides a really cheap 5+ Ward save. These spells are also almost always useful, regardless of what you're facing. The rationale for Shadow is simply that your level 4's spell selection will be that much better ;)

I also like the pictures you've put up! Now I'm just looking forward to some battle reports which will hopefully start some interesting discussions.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Thanks so much for the positive feedback so far guys!

My game is officially scheduled for Monday, so expect to see the first report that evening.

Quote:
For your level 2, I would humbly suggest either High Magic or Shadow Magic. The first one is an excellent lore for a support caster: It allows you to seriously put the hurt on an enemy magic phase and it provides a really cheap 5+ Ward save. These spells are also almost always useful, regardless of what you're facing. The rationale for Shadow is simply that your level 4's spell selection will be that much better ;)


I'm definitely not married to the idea of taking Metal Magic on that level 2. My rationale is that it fills a void that the list would otherwise struggle with - high toughness, heavily armoured troops. I suppose, however, that lore of shadows does offer a couple great tools for dealing with things like that - pit of shades, pendulum and withering, for example. I'll give this some more thought.

Recently I've been attempting to decide what to spend that last 10 points on. True to my nature, I've fussed about it for about a day or so, and I had the idea to switch out the lion chariot for another unit of 5 Dragon Princes. My goal with those two units is to use their range to put out suppression zones that my opponent is hesitant to enter, provide longer distance counter charges, and assault the back of the enemy's lines, depending on the situation. Given that they hit similarly hard, my obsessive compulsive nature took over and I made a pro/con list:

Lion Chariot:

Pros
More maneuverable - with smaller wheels and no reforms needed, this guy definitely has the advantage when it comes to changing directions.
Smaller Frontage - Takes up less real estate and only needs a corner of a unit to lend its full support to a combat.
More staying power in combat - S6 and S5 attacks at all times, instead of just the charge

Cons
Vulnerable - With only 4 wounds, T4, a 4+ save and no lore of life support, this guy is a prime target for cannons, magic and even volume fire.
No Marching - Movement 7 and no marching, chariots really got hurt this edition

Conclusion
Chariot definitely wins in the counter charge department, able to squeeze in to most combats where the Dragon Princes could not

Dragon Princes

Pros
Faster - Movement 8 and the ability to march. No question here
More wounds - 5 v 4 and not vulnerable to attacks that cause multiple wounds
Higher Leadership - Since typically these units are off on a flank, Ld9 definitely is useful
2+ Ward against Fire and breath weapons - Banner of Eternal flame anyone?

Cons
Wider - Makes deploying them tougher, since I already have quite a few wide units, and hurts them with combo charges - pretty much need to get a flank to bring their attacks to bear
Reforming - Musicians are pretty expensive for these guys, but I guess it is an option as well.

Conclusion
Dragon princes win by a landslide for assaulting the backlines, and I'd say they tie with the chariot for zone suppression.

I'm starting to think the Lion Chariot doesn't have as much of a place in a list without lore of life - 4 T4 wounds with a 4+ armour save just isn't enough to keep it alive reliably, and 140 points definitely stings if you lose it.

Anybody have any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:13 pm 
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You're taking Lore of Shadow and as such you shouldn't worry yourself with tough enemies who also have good armour saves. These hardly exist to begin with and your list has plenty of S5. With Shadows, that's fine. As such, your lvl 2 should preferably have another Lore.

As for chariot vs Princes, the chariot is indeed M8. However, I believe the survivability is what it boils down to. I suppose it's up to personal preference though!

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:02 am 
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Here we go! Just got finished with my first battle, so I did up a report while it was fresh in my mind.

Those of you familiar with the Mighty Empires will be interested to know that my special ability this turn is "land grab" - this allows me to take tiles for one less point than usual. This makes this a huge game for me, because any points I manage to get can quickly give me the land edge and score me the bonus 100 points in future rounds for being the largest empire.

I finalized my list, with a couple new changes:

I switch the lore on the second mage to high magic. Given the very offensive nature of my army, it will be nice to augment it with a 5+ ward save, in addition to helping out my magic defense with drain magic.

I also changed the Lion Chariot for a unit of Dragon Princes. The complete list can be found in the original post.

Now, the opponent's army:

Black Orc Warboss - Armour of Destiny, Potion of Strength, Great Weapon
Savage Orc Great Shaman - Dispel Scroll
Black Orc Big Boss - BSB, Talisman of Preservation
Savage Orc Shaman - Scroll of Shielding

30 x Orcs with "Choppa & Blocka" (Hand Weapon + Sheild)
30 x Orc Bigun's with additional hand weapons
25 x Black Orcs
3 x Orc Chariots
5 x Boar Boyz
10 x Orc Archers
10 x Orc Archers

Giant

I apologize, I don't remember his exact spells, but obviously he was only missing one big WAAAGH spell between the two wizards.

My Archmage rolled Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling, Pit of Shades and Mindrazor and my Level 2 rolled Shield of Saphery and Vaul's Unmaking

Deployment

The big blocks made me pretty nervous - I had to find a way to mitigate their numbers and make the combat happen on my terms. I couldn't win a war of attrition against the big blocks, so I'd focus on isolating them.

Oh, and that's a swamp in the middle for the record.

Image

I used an "abandoned flank" style of deployment; The Dragon Princes on the left went down early, as did the eagle. The intention is to put down an easily re-deployable troop to fool your opponent into thinking you're committing to that flank. Then as the game goes on, you abandon that flank with your fast units and leave the enemy units deployed there running to catch up.

After the Bigun's and the Black Orcs go down without much chariot support, I commit to the right flank with my 3 units of elites, and the spears holding the center.

He wins the roll for first turn, and the stage is set! Or at least the sheet of plywood in my living room is. Whatever, you get the point.

Turn 1

Orcs

Image

The Orc masses advance. He gets tied up on the left flank with the building, so opts to keep his giant under cover from the waiting archers. On the right flank, he advances conservatively, wary of the charge from the Dragon Princes.

He rolls low for the winds, and my annullian crystal makes the total 3v3. Not that it matters. He throws 3 dice at Foot of Gork, and it goes off irresistably. 15 spearmen later, I'm left shaking my head. Great start. I'm also stuck listening to the rest of the spearmen complain about the smell. 5 of his Black Orcs die from the subsequent miscast

His Archers on the left shoot at my eagle, but fail to wound, and the ones on the right manage to kill one swordmaster.

High Elves

Image

After sizing up the situation on that left flank, I decide that abandoning it with the dragon princes isn't necessary. He's going to need to move up eventually, and the Dragon Princes win against either the chariot or the boar boyz. Let the bully come, I say!

The far right unit of swordmasters move at full speed towards the archers, tempting the chariot with a juicy charge.

Low winds of magic roll: 6v4. I throw all 6 at a juiced up pit of shades on his black orcs. No miscast, but it does draw out his Dispel Scroll. Got that out of the way!

Turn 2

Orcs

Image

The chariot takes the bait and charges the swordmasters. His left most unit of orcs fails their animosity test and takes a couple wounds - Not super sure about the specifics of this, I just took him at his word. The rest of the army moves forward.

Magic is 5v6 in my favour - Thank you channeling and annullian crystal! He goes for another foot of Gork, but Bubba (he still hasn't lived down last game) manages to dispel it.

The Chariot does 5 wounds on the swordmasters via impact hits, and in return they turn it into tootpicks. They reform to face the Black Orcs.

High Elves

Image

He got a little too aggressive with his Black Orcs, and the Elves don't hesitate to capitalize on it. Both units of swordmasters and the spearmen charge the Black Orcs. I also move up my eagle to intercept a charge from the unit of Bigun's. On the left, the Dragon Princes need to roll an 8 to make their charge, and thanks to swiftstride, they make it.

Magic is 7v3. The level 2 starts things off with 3 dice on a vaul's unmaking on the unit of biguns - I wanted to see what kind of nasty tricks were in store for me there. A big roll of 18 sees that go through. Not much in the way of tricks, so I get rid of the lord's 4+ ward save. Next, I throw the remaining 4 at a pit of shades and suck 7 bigun's into the void.

My archers, who up until this point have been picking away at his archers on the right, manage to panic the unit.

Combat is... destructive. First, the noble chops down their unit champion. Then the swordmasters on the flank take out 8 of the brutes. 4 swordmasters in the front unit put 2 wounds on the Savage Orc Great Shaman. Finally, the remaining swordmasters do another 8 wounds on the black orcs, leaving only 3 left to return attacks. They manage to kill 3 swordmasters in return, and are testing to break on snakeyes. They fail their test and are overrun with the flank unit of swordmasters. The other swordmasters and the spears hold their positions.

On the left, the Dragon Princes manage to kill 4 of the boar boyz, and the remaining boy doesn't wound in return. He does, however, hold on insane courage.

Turn 3

Orcs

Image

I realize the mistake I made with the eagle almost immediately - my intention was to use the eagle as a speed bump for the bigun's, allowing them to win combat and overrun into the spearmen. However, due to the slight angle I put on it, and the wide frontage of the orcs, he declares a combo charge on the eagle *and* the spears. D'oh! I have a moment like this every game I play it seems.

His chariot loops around back to threaten the swordmasters with more impact hits.

I hold with both, and when he issues a charge with his giant on the eagle, I opt to flee. This prevents him from charging, as he needs to be in the front arc of the spears, and the biguns are taking up all of the real estate.

Magic is 8v8 with me getting 2 channels and the crystal. His level 2 throws 6 dice at 'eadbutt, aiming to take out my archmage. He gets a 28. I roll all eight of my dice in response, since I've grown kind of fond of Bubba at this point. Naturally, on eight dice he doesn't roll *any* sixes, and manages a 27. At this point, I'm not suprised when he rolls a 6 for the D3 wounds and puts the Archmage out of his misery. Good. Maybe his replacement will be competent.

In the combat with the spears, my Noble, in his final blaze of glory, puts down the troublesome mage killing shaman. My champion accepts his champion's challenge, and manages to take him out. I do 2 more wounds to his bigun's, and his lord and his company kill 9 of my spearmen in response. The elves fail their break test, and are overrun.

The Dragon Princes on the Left finish off the remaining boar boy, and reform to allow them to loop around the back of his army.

High Elves

Image

Luckily, I had a plan B. I charge the flank of the Bigun's with the Phoenix Guard, and the front with the Dragon Princes.

My Eagle flies up to redirect the chariot charge, hopefully allowing me a flank charge with my swordmasters in the process.

The magic phase is 10 v 5 - sure, now I get some good winds of magic rolls. I throw 3 dice at a vaul's unmaking on the unengaged unit of orcs, to see what he has in it. I manage to miscast and do 5 wounds to the archer unit and the mage himself. I take out his 4+ ward save on his BSB, then call it a day for magic. No sense risking losing my remaining mage and surrendering the points.

The Phoenix Guard champion bravely issues a challenge, which must be accepted by his lord at this point. They exchange blows, but the lord manages to put down the champ - however his ward absorbs all but one of the five attacks. The Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes together manage to do 12 wounds, and in return his Bigun's take out two Dragon Princes. The bigun's break and are overrun by the Dragon Princes.

Turn 4

Orcs

Image

He issues 2 charges - the chariot versus my eagle and the giant versus the Dragon Princes. The Eagle holds and the Princes flee. The giant redirects to the swordmasters, but fails his charge.

His magic is eliminated, and the archers keep plucking away at each other, so we move to combat. His chariot kills the eagle, and overruns 7" - directly in front of the swordmasters.

High Elves

Image

Nearing the end of the game, my goal shifts to collecting as many points as possible while surrending as few of my own as I can - If I can land the massacre, I'll get a huge leg up on the other players. I double charge the giant with the swordmasters and the Dragon Princes. The other Swordmasters charge the chariot in its flank.

I get 12 power dice, but neither of the spells will make much of a difference, so it's not worth risking the miscast.

The swordmasters manage to chop down the chariot, and the Giant falls to the combined forces of the two assaulting units. It just occurred to me that we forgot to make the giant fall down - That could have been nasty. I guess it's ok though, because we forgot *all* fear tests all game too. lol. Both units reform to face south.

Turn 5

Orcs

Image

At this point, I think my opponent just wanted to get the game over with haha. He reforms his remaining block to avoid flank charges, moves up his chariot and shoots a couple swordmasters.

High Elves

Image

I charge the unit of archers on the far right flank, and position my units for a final charge on his remaining block. Once again, I opt out of casting anything.

The swordmasters wipe out the remaining archers, and do an about face.

Turn 6

Orcs

Image

He moves up his chariot to block a flank charge by the Dragon Princes. That's pretty much it.

High Elves

Image

The Dragon Princes charge the chariot, and I measure up the swordmasters and phoenix guard - it's a pretty long charge, and the last thing I want is only one to get in and end up losing the unit. I sit tight with them.

The Chariot opts to flee, but the Princes actually roll 11 for their charge and manage to catch it. Sweet!


The final verdict: 1004 to 2040 for the high elves. A massacre!

Since the Mighty Empires rules were designed for 7th, our group collectively decided to change the requirements for minor, major and massacre victory - they will be over 100 for minor, 300 for major and 600 for massacre, so I actually had a bit more room to work with.



Final Thoughts:

I'm really disappointed by that eagle move that allowed him the charge on the spearmen. I made a point to use my eagles more effectively - saving them for critical moments and positioning them properly. I managed one of two goals, so I guess that's not too bad. I'm definitely going to work at thinking ahead to the next turn and going through the potential charges in my head. Clearly I can't trust my intuition lol.

My opponent definitely wasn't near as aggressive as he needed to be when aggression was called for, and was overly aggressive when he should have been a bit more conservative. For example, he pretty much gave me the Black Orcs by putting them up an inch and a half farther than they should have been. Then, on the left flank he was slow to move up his chariot and giant - these would have come in handy in some of those bigger combats.

Regardless, I'm happy with the positioning of my units in that game. Multiple small units is my clear favourite way to play high elves. It's really great when you use your smaller blocks to set up combo charges on big blocks.

I'm also really upset about Bubba. Yeah, he was goofy and often inept, but he didn't deserve to go like that. Nobody does. This one's for you Bubba!

*pours a beer on the ground*

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:30 am 
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Quote:
I realize the mistake I made with the eagle almost immediately - my intention was to use the eagle as a speed bump for the bigun's, allowing them to win combat and overrun into the spearmen. However, due to the slight angle I put on it, and the wide frontage of the orcs, he declares a combo charge on the eagle *and* the spears. D'oh! I have a moment like this every game I play it seems.


This is illegal. In 8th edition you can only declare a charge against one unit. The only way to get engaged against 2 units is if it's impossible to place your charging units, according to the rules, so that you do not end up in base contact with 2 units. From the diagram, it's pretty clear that he could easily have placed his unit in legal base contact with the Eagle without touching the Spearelves.

When I saw your deployment I wasn't sure your tactic would work, forgetting the power of Swordmasters. As the game unfolded it was clear that you executed it perfectly though - kudos!

As you noted, some of his decisions were rather poor, such as charging your Swordmasters with a single chariot or moving his black orcs too far. Regardless, we have higher movement and you positioned so that he would have had a hard choice regardless.

Well fought game and thanks for the report :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Quote:
This is illegal. In 8th edition you can only declare a charge against one unit. The only way to get engaged against 2 units is if it's impossible to place your charging units, according to the rules, so that you do not end up in base contact with 2 units. From the diagram, it's pretty clear that he could easily have placed his unit in legal base contact with the Eagle without touching the Spearelves.


Looks like I learn something new every time I post here. That's great, thank you! In light of this, the eagle placement wasn't that bad after all. There was still no reason to angle it, however.

Quote:
When I saw your deployment I wasn't sure your tactic would work, forgetting the power of Swordmasters. As the game unfolded it was clear that you executed it perfectly though - kudos!


Thank you sir! What I love about this list is the tactical diversity. Yes, the units are smaller and as such give up their points much easier. I feel this is balanced out by the fact that so many hard hitting units allows me to consistently set up combo and counter charges. Most notably are the smaller units of Dragon Princes, which can project their threat across a huge amount of range.

I feel that High Elves are currently the best army at this approach - we always get our full amount of attacks due to ASF, and our rerolls gives us a reliability that few other armies have access to.

I was also impressed with how the list performed even without the Archmage present. There's enough hitting power and models there that losing my Archmage fairly early on in the game didn't effect things too much - having said that, I also managed to mitigate his casting phase by taking out his mage early as well.

Quote:
As you noted, some of his decisions were rather poor, such as charging your Swordmasters with a single chariot or moving his black orcs too far. Regardless, we have higher movement and you positioned so that he would have had a hard choice regardless.


Funny enough that he took that charge with the chariot. Two chariots and I wouldn't have been near as brash with advancing my swordmasters, probably trying to deal with the chariots with the phoenix guard or magic first. I think the threat of chariots is really amplified when they are paired. D6+1 impact hits is scary, but 2D6+2 is an unacceptable amount of risk for our pricey elites. Luckily the swordmasters were the last thing down, so he was unaware of where they were going.

I had originally only expected to get one unit of Swordmasters in on his Black Orcs, but that chariot gave me the free reform I needed to get the second unit in there too.


Now I get to choose how to spend my extra 100 points. Some ideas I've been toying with:

1. Get the Archmage back the Talisman of Saphery, or even the Loremaster's Cloak to avoid the situation I just experienced.
2. Repeater Bolt thrower to help my shooting phase along - my archers got really frustrated shooting T4 troops.
3. Add 2 more to the Phoenix Guard to get access to that third rank (or make it tougher to cut into the second rank), giving me an easier time breaking steadfast during combo charges.

Anyone have any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
1. Get the Archmage back the Talisman of Saphery, or even the Loremaster's Cloak to avoid the situation I just experienced.
I would take the straight 4+ ward against everything over Loremaster's Cloak.

Do you have to spend 25% of the extra points on more core?


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Do you have to spend 25% of the extra points on more core?


Yes, I do. :(

For 25 points, I'll probably just add to the spearmen unit. Either a couple more bodies, or a magical banner of some sort.

I do, however, have 5 points remaining from the original list still.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:15 pm 
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I agree with your analysis of the units (small, easy to get points from, but good options for comboing and countering. As for the Eagle angle, I don't know if it was possible, but you might've been able to angle it so that overrunning into the Spears was impossible.

100 extra points: If you bring the RBT, don't expect it to help in these kind of situations. For that, bodies are better. RBTs clear away annoyances and threaten big things. Apart from that, they're not really worth it. Our Archers indeed struggle, but we're not meant to tear apart units at range. Other armies do it better, simply put. Again, I believe in cheap archmages so don't see much point in stashing him up.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Greetings!

I really like this battle report. There was some discussion about the deployment and how it affects the game. I think you have just added a nice example to that topic :) At the beginning I was a little worried about your explanation of re-deployment. In my opinion it is not good idea at all as the units you want to re-position do not participate in a game for some time. Especially when you want to move behind your own lines. In your battle you did it in a different way. You kept the pressure on your enemy while moving your units and using the fact that the regiments have high mobility to send them to support your right flank. I think you would do so with Dragon Princes if needed in a similar fashion, move them but always face the enemy so they can join the fight immediately.

I think you forced some mistakes on your opponent, although he seemed to be a little too eager to get to you. You didn't have any artillery so there was no need to hurry. He was shy to approach on your refused flank since Dragon Princes parked there but had to do something to engage you before you set even more dangerous combined charges. His army was still dangerous to yours but I have a feeling he was cought off guard by your deployment and re-positioning. Hence the evidence your trick worked :)

It was really nice to observe your combined charges and then careful reforming so that your army didn't waste time to set following combats and you didn't give many opportunities for your opponent to regain the initiative. I also have to say I am intrigued by your army list and it is great to see it fights very well. Would you elaborate a little more about Phoenix Guard in your army? Speaking of which I think I would add some to their numbers with your extra points and give Talisman of Saphery for your Archmage.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:37 pm 
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At the beginning I was a little worried about your explanation of re-deployment. In my opinion it is not good idea at all as the units you want to re-position do not participate in a game for some time.


With the abandoned flank strategy, the hope is that your opponent commits more points to that flank than you do. The Dragon Princes are especially good at this for several reasons:

1. 5 bare bones princes don't cost much - 150 points
2. They have an amazing charge range and great hitting power on the charge. Opponents fear this, and often overreact to it. Using this game as an example, he advanced with two units on the left - the chariot and the boar boyz. The princes win any one of those combats, but probably not a counter charge. However, the idea of our elite cavalry crashing into his flank was enough to make him move conservatively with both, stalling his entire flank for a good portion of the game.
3. If you opt to not abandon the flank, as I did in this game, the Princes are a great stand alone unit against most typical flankers. I managed to run through the small unit of boar boyz, and loop around back.

Quote:
Would you elaborate a little more about Phoenix Guard in your army?


I'd love to!

Why I chose Phoenix Guard for my army - by Brewmaster_D

Ahh phoenix guard. Referred to by many as "the red headed elite infantry" or "the worst elite infantry", they are often scorned for their lack of hitting power.

So what place do they have in my list?

Well to understand that, first we need to look at what they do well. It certainly isn't damage, barely hitting harder than our basic spearmen. What phoenix guard does really well is stay alive. They essentially only have one true weakness - Dweller's below. Against most normal methods of pain delivery, they effectively have twice as many wounds as their numbers let on. Great, but every opponent in the game knows this and just shoots the stuff that can actually hurt them.

Enter the Banner of Sorcery and the Archmage. By having these two items in this unit, it effectively goes from being a "just ignore it" unit to a "That unit must die" type of unit. Perfect! Now they're doing their job - posing a big enough threat that your opponent has a choice:

Elminate the nasty magic phase present in the phoenix guard but waste half of their damage potential on them, or go after the softer units but let me cast with impunity.

Creating choices like this is a win/win - either way they're getting assaulted by something, whether it be combat or magic.

To make the phoenix guard earn their points in a game, you need to draw fire - unless they're taking damage, you'd always be better off with White Lions or Swordmasters.

When giving up the lore of life, it is important to have some other method of mitigating damage. Typically life magic is used to reduce losses. When choosing a more offensive lore, I feel the Guard do a great job of forcing the enemy to put damage on a unit that is inherently resilent by placing that tough choice on your opponent.

Secondary reasons:

Resilient to miscast wounds from an over-eager archmage
Great recipent for shadow lore buffs/hexes
Another unit that has access to ranks (especially with my newfound bonus points!) and the ability to keep them

I'm inclined to agree with you Swordmaster, I'm going to bump that unit up to 4 full ranks with my extra points.


The next round of Mighty Empires should be interested - after my Massacre plus land grab, there is going to be a huge target on my head. I wouldn't be suprised to see the players start combining forces to take me on, especially because I'm pretty central in the mighty empires map.

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Last edited by Brewmaster_D on Tue May 24, 2011 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:40 pm 
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I agree about 5 DP units in your army. Just wanted to stress out that initially I thought you are going to move them behind your lines and while performing that they would not take part in the battle. While it seems that your intention is to move them to the other flank while still be a threat to the army of your opponent when his slower units opposite DP cannot do the same for his force.

Thanks for the details on Phoenix Guard. I do not think they are useless, quite contrary. It is easy to compare them to White Lions and/or Swordmasters just because they are elite infantry. However, they are entirely different unit. I think your explanation will give some ideas for other players as to use them effectively :)

Looking forward to more reports! :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Hey Everyone!

Just got finished watching the other match last night - turned out to be a draw.

Using my "Land Grab" ability, I snagged a nearby mountain, another nearby tile and put a mine on the mountain I just took. This puts me as the largest empire, regardless of who challenges me, guaranteeing me my 100 point bonus.

Once again, I got "fool's golded" by one of my opponents, so I can't earn gold this turn. So much for my mine! For my ability this turn, I chose "All or nothing". This means that if I score a victory, I get a bonus 2 points, and if I score a loss or draw I get nothing.

The challenges were issued, and due to being the largest empire I had last pick of opponent. Who would step up to face the High Elf host?

Nobody challenged me! I got to choose my match again.

I opted to challenge the Lizardmen player, since he has the same ability I had last turn, and I want to prevent him from getting a leg up on me. I'll deal with the Chaos player that fool's golded me later. He probably thinks I'll forget. I won't.

So, next Monday look forward to my army fighting a host of Lizardmen! My last game versus him was a little shaky:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35290

So naturally I'm going to be looking to improve my performance. The salamanders were my bane, and he's been threatening to take six of them. I then threatened to kick him in the junk. I think we stalemated on that one. I'll be focusing on deploying more effectively, hopefully matching up one of my units of dragon princes against his salamanders.

It's a toss up of what lore he's going to take on his slann - he likes to switch it up quite a bit.

Any advice or comments would be much appreciated!

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Salamander Fever

Well guys, I've played my second round of my campaign, and let me just say, the results weren't so hot. My game was versus the Lizardman player, and my ability this turn was "All or Nothing" - if I didn't win, I'd get 0 empire points this turn, in addition to being "fool's golded" so that I get no gold either.

Here is my opponent's list:

Slann Mage Priest - Cupped Hands, Focus of Mystery, Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Rumination, 4+ ward save
Skink Priest - Ancient Stegadon w/ Engine of the Gods

20 Temple Guard - Full command, Sun Standard of Chotec
42 Saurus Warriors - Full Command
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

3 x Salamanders
3 x Razordons
6 x Chameleon Skinks

He took the lore of light, and the skink priest took the default heavens spell.

I took my usual lores, and got Miasma, Withering, Pendulum, Pit and Mindrazor on my Archmage and Shield, Curse of Arrow Attraction and Drain Magic on my level 2

Deployment

Image

Deployment was the start of my salamander fever. If you've read my last game versus the lizardmen, I got punished pretty hard by these guys, so I really wanted to deal with them quickly. I had two units of Dragon Princes which were well suited for the task, so they went in the flank with the two shooting units, and the bulk of my force went just right of his primary blocks.

Turn 1

Lizardmen

Image

He rolled first turn, and generally advanced forward. He forgot to move his chameleon skinks, since apparently their camouflage is *too* good.

Magic was 8v7 for the first turn of the game. He starts off with a Net of Amyntok on my spearmen. I let this go, since I don't plan on doing much with them this turn anyway. I then dispel banishmen, then let a shem's burning gaze go. He puts it on the eagle, and does 2 wounds to it. He puts pha's protection on the salamanders, then speed of light miscasts on his Saurus Warriors. My Archmage is blocked from line of sight by a big tree, so he simply ignores the miscast.

High Elves

Image

I spend a huge amount of time on this turn. The salamander fever is setting in. I position my units carefully to afford those little bastards no quarter. The hill on the right flank is really high, so his razordons are able to hide behind it, depriving me of the charge.

Magic is 7 v 4, and I start off with a shield of saphery on my unit of swordmasters with the highest chance of getting blasted by the salamanders. Through my fever hazed eyes, I cast a miasma on the salamanders to reduce their initiative, then a pit of shades. Both go off, and of course the pit scatters off them. My fever deepens.

I manage to shoot only one chameleon skink, and we move on to his turn.

Turn 2

Lizardmen


Image

Naturally, the salamanders skirmish their way into an advantageous position regardless, albeit a pretty long shot. His army starts to hook around on the left flank.

Magic is only 3 v 2 this turn. He tries to put a net on the archers, which I dispel. I wanted the archers to at least take out one of those two skirmisher units. In retrospect, this was a poor choice. He then banished my archers to kill 6 of them anyway, and then put speed of light on the saurus once again.

His skink shooting kills all but one of my poor archers, who passes his panic test. The salamanders roll their shots - 10, 10 and misfire. This lands two templates square in my unit, and 40 shots later I'm looking at 21 spearmen dead. Beads of sweat appear on my brow, and I stop speaking coherently. I manage to, through a series of hand gestures, request another beer. They panic, naturally.


High Elves


Image

In an attempt to break my fever, I try to box the salamanders in with my great eagles, as well as tie up the center of his line. He only has two units, so I don't see the eagles being critical for redirecting charges, so in they go. I charge the razordons with my Dragon Princes, who take 0 hits from his 2 artillery dice each razordon stand and shoot - they misfired 4 times between them. My swordmasters charge the skinks in front of them. My archmage leaves his unit to avoid being becalmed by the slann. The lone archer charges the chameleon skinks. Thankfully, my spearmen manage to rally.

Magic is 9 v 4. I start with a withering on his saurus warriors, which he dispels. I then do the miasma/pit combo on the salamanders, and once again scatter off for no effect. Did I mention I miscast? Small round template fails to wound the archmage, and he's off on his own, so nobody else suffers his recklessness.

In combat, the lone archer takes out a skink, but naturally they issue him two poisoned hits back. The Dragon Princes smash through the razordons, and the swordmasters through the skinks. I opt to overrun, hoping for a low-ish roll to box in the salamander. At this point I am hallucinating, the fever is so thick.

Turn 3

Lizardmen

Image

The salamanders, with few options available for movement, charge the great eagle closest to them. The temple guard charge the same eagle, and the rest of his big block turns to face incoming possible charges.

Magic is 8 v 7, and some careless positioning on my part put the archmage within 24" of his slann. He casts Banishment, which I dispel, and Shem's which I also dispel. He then miscasts on a speed of light aura and drains the rest of his pool.

He manages to shoot some more of my spearmen, leaving me with 10 and my Noble, but they hold on their panic test.

The salamanders and temple guard manage to kill the eagle, and both opt to hold instead of overrun.

High Elves

Image

So my apologies about this picture. A lot happens this turn, and I couldn't get the pictures to exactly represent things here. A lot came down to mere millimeters.

I issue the following charges - The swordmasters that just finished killing the skinks on his unit of saurus, the Phoenix Guard on his salamanders, the great eagle on his salamanders to get him out of the way, and the swordmasters on his salamanders to later threaten the temple guard. Finally, the spearmen with the noble charge the stegadon.

My plan was to run the combat with the salamanders first, and blast them, then overrun into the second combat with the Saurus Warriors to help the swordmasters. More on this later.

Magic is 12 v 5, and I throw 6 dice at mindrazor on the phoenix guard. My plan was to wither the saurus warriors after, to have both the swordmasters and phoenix guard wounding on 2's, but I miscast for the second time this game on the mindrazor. Phoenix guard are S9, but magical feedback puts a wound on both of my wizards and drains the rest of my pool.

In combat, the noble manages to put a wound on the skink priest, and the spearmen bounce off their armour. The stegadon kills the noble in return, but the unit still wins combat. He holds. Darn.

The S9 phoenix guard rip through the salamanders, breaking my fever. I emerge from the grips of delerium to see my error. Because I placed the eagle on the far left during the charge, only he is able to overrun into the saurus. The Phoenix Guard would clip the edge of the swordmasters first, rendering my plan useless. Instead, I reform to face the approaching Temple Guard, and hope for the best with my swordmasters.

With speed of light on the Saurus Warriors, not only was I down my rerolls, but also with 4's to hit. Despite this, the swordmasters manage 9 wounds on the ugly blue lizards. His high weaponskill, however, allows him to put 9 wounds back on the swordmasters, and despite the flank bonus from the eagle, they still lose combat. The swordmasters break, and he pursues right in to my next unit of swordmasters. Yikes.


Turn 4

Lizardmen


Image

The Temple Guard declare a charge on the nearby fleeing eagle. They didn't want to face the mindrazored Phoenix Guard apparently. The eagle rolls low and his charge is successful. He charges out of line of sight of the phoenix guard.

I also correct a small mistake from last turn. The chameleon skinks took some bowfire and panicked. This turn, they actually rally where they are, with the charge bringing the slann into range to confer his bonuses.

Magic is 5 v 4 - He casts shem's burning gaze to capitalize on me forgetting to move my archmage. I then point out to him that it's a magic missile, and that he needs line of sight. The spell is wasted :D

He goes for another speed of light, but I manage to dispel it. He then rolls very high for a Timewarp on his saurus warriors. Crap.

Combat goes pretty much as I expect it. I lose my rerolls again due to him now having ASF as well. I put another 8 wounds on the unit, and he takes out 7 of the swordmasters. The remaining swordmasters fail their -4 break test and he overruns into the Dragon Princes.

High Elves

Image

The phoenix guard see the ancient stegadon hanging out there unguarded, and issue a charge. He rolls a huge 11" for his flee distance... and the Phoenix Guard roll boxcars. They match his distance, and manage to catch him! The archmage moves into the nearby unit of archers.

Magic is 9 v 5 - I throw 6 dice again at mindrazor on the Dragon Princes. What do you know? Miscast # 3. This one rolls a 7 and pops three archers in the unit he just joined, making him very popular among his new unit.

The Dragon Princes, due to good rolls and mindrazored steeds, manage to kill 7 Saurus Warriors, and they kill 3 in return. The princes hold.

Turn 5

Lizardmen

Image

At this point the game turns into a game of cat and mouse. He knows he's won if he can just hold on to his remaining units. He puts all of his shooting on the archers killing 6 of them. He puts another timewarp on his saurus, then miscasts a speed of light. This drains his pool and kills half his unit of temple guard.

Needless to say, the saurus wreck the remaining dragon princes, and turn to face the final incoming unit.

High Elves

My notes get a bit sketchy here, because I was getting pretty in to the game :P

Image

Instead of charging the supersauruses, which would have been a fool's errand, I move around their flank, and position myself to threaten either them, or the temple guard.

In magic, I cast a powered up miasma with three dice on his temple guard, in an attempt to hold them in place - and of course, miscast again. #4 for those keeping count. The temple guard receive -2 to their stats and my archmage rolls magical feedback again. This kills the level 2, and leaves him with 1 wound left. It also drains the remaining pool. Can I catch a break here?

Turn 6

Lizardmen

Image

His temple guard scoot as far forward as their miasma'd legs will take them, and the remaining chameleon skinks move to divert the phoenix guard. His remaining saurus warriors reform, and block the dragon princes from charging the temple guard.

For magic, he rolls 3, which I steal 1 for 2 v 3. I also manage to channel, making the total 2 v 4. Now we're talking! He puts it all into a banishment, which I dispel easily.

His shooting kills all but 3 archers, and they pass their panic test.

High Elves

So many things to do, so few turns.

Image

I charge his unit of saurus with the dragon princes, and the flank of the same unit with the archers. Here goes the desperate gambit!

In magic, I manage to cast a withering on his saurus with, you guessed it, irresistable force. This one, of course, kills my archmage. I do, however, manage to reduce the saurus' toughness by 3.

This allows me to do enough wounds to miraculously break them in combat. I pursue with both, and catch them.

My phoenix guard obviously take the chameleon skinks, and that's the game!

End result: Major Loss for the High Elves :(


Final Thoughts:

Wow. 5 miscasts. One each turn but the first. I'm actually a bit suprised my idiotic archmage managed to last as long as he did...

That aside, I'm disappointed at my positioning in the center during that crucial turn. No doubt that cost me the game right there.

So what I'd like to do is pose you all some questions in light of this round - I'm now without points, cash and the ability to generate cash this round. I'll also lose my biggest empire bonus against most, so I'm in a tough spot.

1. It was clear that my opponent wrote this list specifically to combat high elves. Mine is an all comers list. Do you think I should stick to my guns by using the same list, or fight fire with fire and start writing mine to combat my opponents?

2. How do you normally combat salamanders? These guys always seem to find a way to get out of my line of sight and blast me, despite my best efforts at positioning my units.

3. Do you think a different lore (on either the level 2 or level 4) would have more success with this list? Miscasts really do seem to be plagueing me and limiting my phases.


And of course, any other input would be more than welcome. I expect you guys to thrash me on this one, because I feel that this was one of my worst played games in a long time.

Having said all of that, the list didn't do *too* badly against an opponent who was gunning for me. If you take away all those miscasts, which were responsible for killing both of my mages, this match was a draw - he won by about 450 points, and my mages cost a combined 490 points.

Thanks for reading!

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Thanks for the report! Too bad you lost though.

I'm very curious about your deployment here. You have way more drops than he did, yet you place your Spearelves on your flank, relatively unsupported. This allows his Salamanders to target them - and they're by far the most juicy unit to target here. Placing your units like you did, you achieve 2 things:
- his Salamanders can move centrally, in front of his blocks, to fire at your units. This means you have to take them out, which means combined charges are next to impossible to pull off
- Your right flank units will be delayed for too long when your combat blocks need help

Both these things proved to be true in this game - you did not get to combo-charge him and the fights were hardly ever in your favour from the get-go. As for your PG/Eagle placement - I'm surprised you didn't see the clipping when you placed the chargers. I'm not sure if it had been possible, but it looks like you could've placed the Eagle on the other corner of the Salamanders, which probably would've let your PG through? Your Dragon Princes were also away from the crucial fighting for far too long.

Your comments:

1. I'm not so sure this is an anti-elf list. What is so different compared to your run-of-the-mill lizardmen lists? Your list as it is should be capable of dealing with it, without too many problems, in my opinion
2. Deploy so that they can't both get an advantageous position and blast the most juicy targets. Send cavalry for them ASAP.
3. If you dislike miscasts, there are only 2 options: magic items (staff of solidity, earthing rod) or lore of life.

On an end note, I believe you should re-consider your magical priority. In turn 3, you had 12 dice and started with 6-dice Okkam's. Why? It's much better to get the little things off first - if he dispels it you can even shave off a dice from okkam's and use it for something else. I think I would've throwed a 2+4+6 strategy here, starting with drain magic (or shield of saphery), then withering. No reason to start with a 6-dice spell as miscasts can ruin your phase. The other way around, miscasts are unlikely to have such a big effect.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Quote:
I'm very curious about your deployment here. You have way more drops than he did, yet you place your Spearelves on your flank, relatively unsupported. This allows his Salamanders to target them - and they're by far the most juicy unit to target here. Placing your units like you did, you achieve 2 things:
- his Salamanders can move centrally, in front of his blocks, to fire at your units. This means you have to take them out, which means combined charges are next to impossible to pull off
- Your right flank units will be delayed for too long when your combat blocks need help


First off, let me tell you that I definitely wasn't playing in my normal frame of mind. I'm not normally influenced by emotions, but with all my points this round on the line, I really let those silly salamanders get to me. As such, I definitely tunnel visioned on them. My deployment was largely dicatated by that - I wanted to take out those shooting units early, so I committed my knights over there. My thinking was that I could stall the other flank long enough to take those two units of hunting packs and surround that flank.

In hindsight, I'm majorly facepalming. What you are saying is exactly true - He just snuck in front of his big block and used the threat of counter charges to limit my options to surround him. In the future, I'm also thinking of using miasma to simply limit their movement. Part of what makes them so slippery is the 12" march move, so cut that off and their options drop drastically.

Quote:
Both these things proved to be true in this game - you did not get to combo-charge him and the fights were hardly ever in your favour from the get-go. As for your PG/Eagle placement - I'm surprised you didn't see the clipping when you placed the chargers. I'm not sure if it had been possible, but it looks like you could've placed the Eagle on the other corner of the Salamanders, which probably would've let your PG through? Your Dragon Princes were also away from the crucial fighting for far too long.


Haha yeah, you're spot on again. It was a lot tighter than it looked, but I believe that the PG could have been into combat if I'd have switch their position with the eagle. It's really tough to tell from my photos, but I think so.

Quote:
1. I'm not so sure this is an anti-elf list. What is so different compared to your run-of-the-mill lizardmen lists? Your list as it is should be capable of dealing with it, without too many problems, in my opinion


He told me it was ;) He normally doesn't pick lore of light, that many hunting packs or the huge block of saurus. Regardless, I think you're right. Given the opportunity, I think I could take this list.

Quote:
3. If you dislike miscasts, there are only 2 options: magic items (staff of solidity, earthing rod) or lore of life.


Well... they're good for a laugh at least. My super aggressive casting is more at fault than anything. I was sloppy in this game, with the magic phase being the most sloppy. Agreed, and points taken ;)

I've made such a big deal about playing the same list throughout to everyone in this campaign - I'm going to stick to my guns I think. I'm scared to think of what the Tomb King player can come up with though. 80 archers pumping out 160 shots a turn with magical aid? Good god lol.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Greetings!

I really liked this battle report. Having 5 IF's was indeed interesting, are you sure your dice are not loaded? :) I know players who after such performance immediately buy a new set of dice :)

I have two questions at the moment:

1. Did you consider deploying your Spears in 2 or 3 ranks? Since you didn't want them to move and let the enemy come to you it might have reduced the number of hits received by very lucky Salamanders barrage.

2. Do you think you would be in a better position without charging Swordmasters against Salamanders in turn 3? It looks to me as an overkill on Salamanders while without Swordmasters you could overrun into his Saurus and maybe even finish them in a single combat? You would have a huge advantage fighting from the flank with a ranked unit. Even without Mindrazor you had a chance to inflict enough damage to break them. I understand that Temple Guard was a problem here.

In general I do not think you played that bad and the difference was not that huge. It was really unfortunate that you lost your Archmage in the last round. You could play safe and do not charge the big Saurus unit but it would mean a similar outcome I guess. I would do the same, especially having a chance to charge a flank of enemy unit with my Archers :)

As to your questions:

1. There are probably as many reasons to stick with the same army as to tailor that to particular opponent. No better option here really. It really comes down to what you find more fun with. :)

2. I thought you did well to hunt them down although they definitely occupy too much of your attention :) Killing them is important but do not forget about the rest of his army :) I have never played Lizardmen so I am afraid I am in no position to offer you more detailed advice.

3. I am wondering why do you use Shadow in the first place. Not that it is not fitting your army, as Shadow make your Phoenix Guard even more terryfying. I like High Magic on level 2, as it supports your army nicely. However, what about Life Lore on both of them and taking Staff of Solidity instead of Silver Wand? You can have all spells from the lore and get slightly stronger banishment. I like the area spells of that lore and I think it would help your army too.

Thanks again for a very interesting battle report!

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
1. Did you consider deploying your Spears in 2 or 3 ranks? Since you didn't want them to move and let the enemy come to you it might have reduced the number of hits received by very lucky Salamanders barrage.


Hey SwordMaster!

This could have really helped for sure. I'll consider it for next time, although I feel like I can achieve similar effects by just deploying my troops more effectively. However, if it looks like I'm going to be in a pinch, I'll keep this in mind. The musician reform makes this very possible.

Quote:
2. Do you think you would be in a better position without charging Swordmasters against Salamanders in turn 3? It looks to me as an overkill on Salamanders while without Swordmasters you could overrun into his Saurus and maybe even finish them in a single combat? You would have a huge advantage fighting from the flank with a ranked unit. Even without Mindrazor you had a chance to inflict enough damage to break them. I understand that Temple Guard was a problem here.


Yeah, this was a gross miscalculation on my part - I didn't take the time I should have to analyze and walk through in my head how that multi-charge was going to pan out. It was fairly complicated, with 4 units charging, so running it through in my head it looked like it would all work out, but in the end it didn't. You live you learn right? If I could play it over, I would have done exactly what you were saying - without charging those swordmasters in, I would have set myself up for a perfect counter charge with the swordmasters and dragon princes after his overrun.

Thanks so much for the feedback guys! I think this game was really good for me, despite being a loss - my next games I'm going to be very cognizant of two things:

1. Casting priority, order and dice distribution. As Curu mentioned, my casting was far too aggressive, far too early in the phase. I had a spell in mind that was very important in most phases, and I didn't want to risk a miscast on a lesser spell and draining my pool. In the future I'll try to put my opponent into tough positions when I have lots of dice at my disposal - Do I want a withering or a pit of shades to go off? Incidentally, my opponent did a great job of this, usually forcing me to pick between speed of light or timewarp on his unit(s), crippling my hitting power.

2. Watch my positioning, and work out charges in my head before I commit to them. No more salamander fever, I promise :P

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Can you send me the link to the battle report so I can include it in my collection? Seems we both need to study and learn more about combating Lizardmen...

When's your next game and who are you playing?

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