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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:05 pm 
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With death's short range options, there could be some fun to be had with shadow's lore attribute to get into position. Probably a rare necessity but could add a layer of tricksy.

I'm not sure about the lone chariot. What role do you envision it playing?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
With death's short range options, there could be some fun to be had with shadow's lore attribute to get into position. Probably a rare necessity but could add a layer of tricksy.

I'm not sure about the lone chariot. What role do you envision it playing?


Indeed I've though about Smoke and Mirrors as well! 18" is quite significant and could indeed be used to set up some unforeseen possibilities. An example would be a 7v4 phase where I start with a 2D6 Miasma (lowering I, of course), using it to swap the Death mage which subsequently chucks a 5D6 Purple Sun ;)

About the Chariot - it's mostly for back field insurance. I have invested a significant amount of points in the mages and I often find that I miss something cheap and relatively effective for this duty. With the Chariot's free pivot, I think it'll excel at this role. Also, its small footprint allows it to add punch to the elites, if need be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@John Rainbow - I agree with your assessment. However, Dweller's and extra toughness is always nice. I think the main problem here is the 5 dice cap, which really tips it in the favour of Death.

Ah, the dice cap! That's what I was going to talk about. I think you nailed it in your comment though.

As for the new list, where do you envision placing the mages? I also agree that the chariot seems a little bit like an afterthought here. I would be more tempted to go for another eagle and more WLs or some other toys on your characters. I can see why you have opted for the BotWD as insurance against some silly spell i.e. Dwellers but I'm not sure its worth it as it will end up getting your SMs killed instead as they can be hit by spells (assuming the BSB goes with the WL).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:31 pm 
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The idea behind the BSB is to have him protect the expensive mages. I am wondering whether it's worth it though, seeing as he's becoming quite expensive himself and still rather squishy. Moreover, the comp allows look out, sir for one model per unit for spells like Dwellers etc. Both Reaver Bow, AoC+DS and Loremaster's Cloak are alternatives.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Just because people field the worst possible lists doesn't mean they know how to use them to their full potential, as was demonstrated repeatedly at last weekend's no comp turney.

Shadow+death=fun.
If we're talking spesific matchups, ogres are "easy" meat. Soulblight+withering+50 archers= dead gutstar. Pit+purple sun, one will get through. In fact, one large strength of your magic is the redundancy I believe. Further: You have no good target for ironblaster. Mournfang van be redirected. Dogs you can shoot. And maneaters you can shoot. Just shoot then before they snipe you. You also have flaming shooting, negating the best ogre spell. In fact, ogres should be a walkover ;).

Lizardmen. Shoot the skinks. AoE soulblight shines here. Pit and sun on temple guard. Your SM will suffer, PG is probably better in this matchup.

DE: die?
Pit on Altar and hydra. Shoot black guard. You have some problems with corsairs, redirect and flank?
Since they will be coming to you, you should be able to break up their advance.
Maybe the hardest matchup?

Skaven
Spiritleach. Burn the Abomb. Avoid all the slaves, not that I know how. Okay, probably the hardest matchup...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Quote:
About the Chariot - it's mostly for back field insurance. I have invested a significant amount of points in the mages and I often find that I miss something cheap and relatively effective for this duty. With the Chariot's free pivot, I think it'll excel at this role. Also, its small footprint allows it to add punch to the elites, if need be.


Yes the movement of the chariot can allow it to excel in protecting your back field but you also have 600 points of archers on the table. Depending on how many units that is, they could effectively perform the same task. Just a thought, I love chariots myself and am looking to get them back on the table after playing almost exclusively infantry heavy for a long time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Thanks for the input!

@rusty - I wouldn't ever consider Ogres a walk in the park, especially not as long as the Hellheart is around. As far as redundancy is considered, I believe this is a core element of any strong magic strategy. That, or Teclis. Book of Hoeth is hit-or-miss in that you don't always get the spells you want, and you frequently lose 100% potential when the mage dies (miscasts, snipes, whatnot). Lz will probably be hard, but I find that they're almost always hard anyways. DE - I should win the shooting war and the Swordmasters excel at cleaning up infantry. While corsairs are dirt cheap effective, they still die in droves to Swordmasters who hit them 90% of the time and wound them 5/6. Death helps against the inevitable pendant lord.

Skaven, oh Skaven... You're probably right about the Slaves. To do this properly I'll have to enable a wrap-around on one flank to collapse it. If I can combine 2 elite units they should eat a unit per combat turn, even unaided. All spells from both lores are greatly helping me here, but it is a very hard matchup indeed.

@Bolt Thrower - I know that the Archers are quite expensive, however I haven't found in my games that they're entirely reliable against semi-hard threats. The Chariot also adds speed and flexibility to cover flanks etc.

I really like the feel of this setup. The more I think about it, the more I want to playtest it! The sooner, the better ;) I am a little unsure about the chariot, as well as the BSB equipment. With the Look out, sir, it might be a little overkill. Perhaps he's better off as a combat character, or even supporting with the Reaver Bow or simply Loremaster's Cloak. As for the Chariot, I can't help but feel weak without any speed what-so-ever. So many units can dance around me without the Archers being able to truly deal with it effectively, whereas an M9 chariot presents a pretty big no-go arc for minor units.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:38 pm 
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With regards to skaven, I would think you have quite the tool in death magic alone ?.

Spirit Leech/caress/bjuna on any character/abomb/doomwheel etc. that dares enter the 24" range ? Spirit leech in particular against the skaven leaders is directly nasty with his BSB at LD6 and his Grey Seer on 7, with your AM starting on 9.

If you can find 10 points for the Mask of EEE combined with Doom and Darkness, anything caught outside the Bubblebunker should be running for the hills?, or Doom and Darkness combined with panic tests from 25 % cas. due to shooting (easy peasy with your list), or even better from friendly units dying within 6" (Mass archers combined with withering/soulblight)

Or the classical Doom and Darkness +Aspect of The DK on Eagle and charge his warmachines ? You only need to get the eagle into 22" range to force a LD4 test that should fail resulting in more tests for everything within 6" ?

As I see it, it is a question of reprioritizing the lores ? and make Death your default with Shadow being the "surport lore" ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Death magic can definitely be strong against Skaven, as well as in a plethora of other areas which you point out. Perhaps you are right and I should reconsider which lore is my primary and which is the secondary. Will have to give it some thought :)

This list by the way looks like it'll get playtested tomorrow. It's been too long since my last game, hoping to get back into it from now on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Death magic can definitely be strong against Skaven, as well as in a plethora of other areas which you point out. Perhaps you are right and I should reconsider which lore is my primary and which is the secondary. Will have to give it some thought :)


Exactly. One of the main strengths of having dual AM, would be that you aren't locked down to a single lore picked to adress the "weak link" in the army list, but rather have an awesome toolbag at disposal to choose from according to what you are facing. Kinda hard to explain in English but something like vs. this kind of army shadow is primary, vs. that kind of army death is the primary and vs. the 3rd kind a combination etc. I guess this will put a bigger tactical demand on you, but your current list certainly opens for both defensive and offensive playstyles movement wise, and then using the magic to capitalize on your opponents weakness ?

Curu Olannon wrote:
This list by the way looks like it'll get playtested tomorrow. It's been too long since my last game, hoping to get back into it from now on.

GL. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Indeed, the only thing I have to consider is where the Wand goes, i.e. which lore is overall more dependent on perfect spell selection for everything to work as I want it to ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Have you considered making the BSB a mage, for dual spirit leech? Then again, you are already spending heavily on magic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:28 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Have you considered making the BSB a mage, for dual spirit leech? Then again, you are already spending heavily on magic.


Nope, I have not. Given the circumstances I think that would be a poor investment. The way I see it, the BSB provides either a utility of some sorts, or some extra combat power. The latter is unlikely to be decisive, given the amount of S5 and S6 my elites have. As such, I'm looking to tool him up with something that really contributes to my army's versatility and performance. Examples include:
- ring of fury
- reaver bow
- loremaster's cloak
- banner of the world dragon
- the white sword + talisman of loec

While dual spirit leech would be nice, I don't think it's worth the investment. Between 9 spells from level 4 mages, I doubt I'll get to cast it like, ever. The good thing about the Ring of Fury is that it's a perfect 1D6 cast at the start of the phase. If it goes through - great! If it doesn't, you've only lost a single dice. The Reaver Bow fulfils a lot of the same role actually, except it's more reliable yet also a bit weaker.

I just realized that I've paid 20 points too much for the BSB, I thought the BotWD was 80 points, when it's actually 60.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Ok, analysis time (one of my favourite aspects of this game):

:: Death vs Shadow - who gets the spell selection priority? ::

I believe the silver wand should go to the mage who, most frequently, has a greater need for getting 2+ vital spells. To determine this, let's first prioritize the spells in general:

Shadow:
1. Withering. There is little to argue with here, it's a great spell during all the phases of the game. Its potential is truly devastating, it's average is easily scary and even the minor effect has an impact.
2. Okkam's Mindrazor. There are some things in this game which I simply do not have a good answer for. These include flying monsters and monstrous cavalry in particular. Even capped at S7, Okkam's greatly reduces these threats.
3. Miasma. Cheap and flexible, a perfect addition to the other expensive casts.
4. Enfeebling. I consider this better than Pit simply because PS is available.
5. Pit
6. Steed
7. Pendulum

Death:
1. Doom and Darkness. A very versatile spell, though with a few poor matchups.
2. Spirit Leech. Cheap and dangerous, potential of generating extra dice (though we're capped at +3).
3. Purple Sun. By itself a very scary spell, coupling it with Shadow sure doesn't hurt.
4. Fate of Bjuna. A real killer and a very nice counter to Dreadlords and mages, whom I expect will be plentiful around.
5. Soulblight. Very versatile, though no-where near as good as Withering because in general I'm looking to focus fire.
6. Caress
7. Aspect

Comparing these spells, the overall most important one is Withering, with D&D a close second. I consider Spirit Leech more valuable than Okkam's, however I favour Miasma over PS. I can always get both Spirit Leech and Miasma though, without expending any other spells. Still, overall there's a slight advantage to Shadow.

Let's take a look at typical hard matchups:

Ogres with Gutstar
PS is without a doubt a killer here. D&D is also very good against Ogres, as is Withering. Advantage Death.

Lizardmen with Skinkspam
PS is great against the bunker and saurus in general, and Soulblight is devastating here. Advantage Death.

Dark Elves with Lvl 4 Shadow, lvl 2 Metal and Unkillable Dreadlord.
Death is perfect for everything here: killing the mages and the Dreadlord. D&D can easily swing the tide of any battle and with the amount of S5+ infantry, Withering is unlikely to be a big factor in combat. HOWEVER, focus fire with Withering here is awesome. With Death, I can always get the important spell (Spirit Leech) guaranteed, and I have a pretty good chance of grabbing Fate of Bjuna as well, which is really all I should need in addition. However, not getting Withering would be a disaster. Advantage Shadow.

Daemons with Bloodthirster
Miasma is awesome against letter blocks, withering is incredibly powerful with the archer spam and mindrazor gives me a good option against the thirster. Advantage Shadow.

Skaven with GS + slavespam
Death, by far. Spirit Leech is amazing, as is D&D. Not getting the latter would be a disaster, however the first is guaranteed. No essential spells from Shadow. Advantage Death.

HE BoH
The mage needs to die. Miasma is good against elves, but again I'm guaranteed to get it. The more sniper spells, the better. Soulblight is awesome, as is Withering. Advantage Death due to mage-killing priorities: the more spells, the better chance of getting one through. Advantage Death.

Vampire Counts with Deathstar
If it's infantry, Withering is amazing. If it's cavalry, Okkam's is amazing. However, PS and Sniper spells are always good. Advantage Death.

Death - 5, Shadow - 2.

While I consider Shadow better in general, there are always ways to work around its weaknesses with Death: for example if I miss Withering, Soulblight will largely perform a similar duty, though obviously not quite as powerful. I believe I can work around this easier than the other way around: not getting D&D + PS is really bad against a lot of armies (OK anyone?) whereas not having Mindrazor or Withering is partially made up for by the other (not getting either is just very, very unlucky).

Conclusion: Silver Wand goes to Death Mage, Shadow Mage gets Annulian Crystal.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:15 pm 
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List draft update:

Archmage lvl 4 Death, Silver Wand, Fireward - 275
Archmage lvl 4 Shadow, Annulian Crystal - 300
BSB GW DA Reaver Bow - 168

Characters: 743

18 Archers, FC, Flamebanner - 233
10 Archers, musician, champion - 125
10 Archers, musician, champion - 125
10 Archers, musician, champion - 125

Core: 608

21 WL, FC, Gem of Courage, BoS - 405
14 SM, musi - 216
14 SM, musi, bladelord w/amulet of light - 243
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

Special: 949

2 Eagles - 100

Rare - 100

= 2400

Basically traded some gear around and swapped the mages' equipment.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:14 am 
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Do you think making the WLs a horde may be a safer bunker for your BoS? With WLs it seems like once you get over 20 you might as well just up it to a decent horde size (26-28) and you can reform to a smaller 7 wide once your numbers get taken down a bit. 21 just seems an in between kind of number.. having a unit of 7 SMs and 14 SMs could still be functional. Possibly make the smaller group your ethereal hunters with the Amulet.

Just some thoughts. Otherwise, I'm excited to see some of your play testing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:40 am 
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I am a little curious about all the champs in the archers ?.

Dropping the 3 champs in the 10elf blocks would buy you another 2 archers and save you 8 points, that could pay for the ironcurse icon in the mage bunker (on the death mage) ?.

Ironcurse just needs to save one archer to pay for itself, while also giving a - granted small - chance of another save vs. cannon snipe should you fail LOS ?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:10 am 
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@Teledor - units are capped at 450 points. Thus, the Banner of Sorcery effectively prevents a bigger size. While I see your point, I think 18 is too few and prefer my Lions 7 wide. Also, having magical attacks on a bigger unit allows them to go up effectively against VC ethereal-busses (to some extent) and counter Forest Spirit effectively, among others.

@Overg - I have missed having a champion in small units so many times. With Shadow in particular, where the threat of getting caught up in a challenge, only to be mindrazored the next turn, I believe this is a worthwhile investment. I also intend to use the Archers as mage-protectors. To this end, having champions is a must as annoying flying characters can thus be challenged to the other end of the unit. I don`t really consider getting a couple more Archers a better option than this. I noticed that Pash used this setup in his recent tournament and I believe he was quite happy with it. As for items `paying for themselves` I rarely, if ever, think about them that way. Overall utility cannot be measured on a point-by-point basis as the synergy and context play big roles.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:21 pm 
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I can't emphasise enough how much I agree with that last point.

Interesting list Curu. That is a fearsome magic phase, you will hex the enemy to death. Do you see a potential problem in the Swordmasters getting shot up?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:36 pm 
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I agree that adding to the WLs would be a sub-optimal choice. I've been making this mistake recently but I think having just two combat effective units is too few - and I don't consider 7 SMs a combat effective unit. You simply need something to force your opponent to move/prevent yourself being redirected. It's far to easy for an opponent to destroy or simply block out the big lion block and take out the rest. You need another potential threat.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Here is the list I will be playing against Curu later. I just started painting a few brets and this will be the first foray into knightly glory. The army will be proxied by Curus massive collection of Silver Helms.

Lord on pegasus. HKB, heartwood lance, enchanted shield, potion of foolhardiness. Grail vow.
Prophetess lvl 4. horse. dispell scroll, life

Paladin BSB. Horse, shield, lance (allowed by local comp), gromril greathelm
Paladin. Lance, shield, mane of the purebreed, dawnstone.

12 Kotr full command banner of eternal flame
12 kotr full command
10 bowmen
10 bowmen

5 Mounted Yeomen
3 Peg knights
3 peg knigts

2x trebs
6x grail knights, full command banner of swiftness

2395 points.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:34 pm 
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@SpellArcher - with our superior base-by-base stats, removing S or T at will truly can give us what we need to win combats extremely decisively, which basically allows us to almost grind multiple combats, if magic goes well. Swordmasters getting shot up is always a problem, but I don't really what armies this would be a particularly big problem against. Perhaps the Lizardmen but with Pit and Sun flying around I feel I have a fairly decent answer to them.

@John Rainbow - Agreed. Big Lions need you to be the king of mobility to work, in my opinion. This list is far from that: while able to control the flow of the game somewhat there is no way I can dictate my enemy's movements and priority, as opposed to the Dragon list. This battle showed just that.

@Strange - thanks for supplying the army list, and thanks a lot for the game :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:50 pm 
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:: Chivalry, Valour, Honour! ::

Looks like I'll have to do this battle report in multiple parts. First of all, both Strange and myself were trying out new lists, so the pictures used to detail this report will contains lots of proxies. I'll do my best to elaborate on what's what, feel free to ask if anything's unclear.

The basis for this game was to try out a new comp pack, which basically is a light-comp restricting some general stuff (max. 5PD at a spell, no units above 450 points / 40 models, LoS for one character vs Dwellers etc), but leaving armies free to do as they please otherwise.

My initial thought for this comp was to go with dual-archmages. While BoH + BoS surely is a strong combo, I don't believe that it's either reliable enough nor strong enough to take on the worst powerhouses. You'll blow up and flat out lose the game too many times and you'll frequently find you have the wrong lore for the job at hand. Anyways, that's why I instead wanted to go down the dual-archmage road.

So, let's get to it! The lists were as follows:

Lord on pegasus. HKB, heartwood lance, enchanted shield, potion of foolhardiness. Grail vow.
Prophetess lvl 4. horse. dispell scroll, life

Paladin BSB. Horse, shield, lance (allowed by local comp), gromril greathelm
Paladin. Lance, shield, mane of the purebreed, dawnstone.

12 Kotr full command banner of eternal flame
12 kotr full command
10 bowmen
10 bowmen

5 Mounted Yeomen
3 Peg knights
3 peg knigts

2x trebs
6x grail knights, full command banner of swiftness

2395 points.

Archmage lvl 4 Death, Fireward, Silver Wand
Archmage lvl 4 Shadow, Annulian, General
BSB Reaver Bow, GW, DA

18 Archers FC Flamebanner
10 Archers musician/champion
10 Archers musician/champion
10 Archers musician/champion

14 Swordmasters, musician
14 Swordmasters, musician, Bladelord w/Amulet of Light
21 Lions, F.C, Gem of Courage, Banner of Sorcery

2 Eagles

Deployment: I went first and deployed a lot of chaff initially, to get a feel for what he was going to be doing. I could pinpoint his buses when his Grail Knights went down, but I had made a rather big mistake myself in closing too much space in my own zone to properly place my elites where I wanted them. I'm used to 2 units, not 3 ;) Anyways, the result was a semi-awkward placement of the Swordmasters behind each-other. Spells: I got a pretty much free choice from Shadow, with 4-4, 6-6 on the dice. I opted for Withering, Enfeebling, Mindrazor, Miasma. Death gave me an equally good throw with 1-3-3-6-6 and I chose Spirit Leech, Soulblight, D&D, Fate of Bjuna and Purple Sun. Strange got a crap selection from Life, ending up with Magic missile, regen, regrowth and dwellers.

As the Bretonnians decided to pray, I got T1. His Pegasus Knights had vanguarded up on extreme flanks, and this really caused me a headache way before I should've had one.

:: High Elves T1 ::

I immediately reacted to the Pegasus Knights with my left flank shuffling some characters around to protect them better from any charges. I also intended to magic and shoot the living daylights out of these fellows because this flank was very open, so if they died I would have a safe haven for the weak Archers + mages, if need be.

Magic saw us get a 12v6 split. I decided to start with the obvious things and cast Miasma on the Knight bus with the characters on 2D6. He let it go, for -3M. I then tried a boosted Spirit Leech on his Prophetess, which was dispelled. I then cast the Soulblight on the Pegasus Knights, which he let through. I finished up with an IF Withering on the same Knights, reducing their T to 1, but I rolled snake eyes for the miscast table... A roll of a 4 luckily saved my general from T1 oblivion, however the S10 template took out quite a few Archers and Lions.

It was all worth it in the end though as the 30 Archers + BSB killed all of the flying Knights, opening the flank completely.

Image
Description: my two units on the Eastern flank are Swordmasters, along with the Archers behind the hedge. The black knights are the KOTR with Prophetess and flamebanner, the other bus is the character-bus (dual paladin). 'My' BSB is his lord and the small group of Knights near his Trebuchets are the Grail Knights. I have both mages with the Lions and the BSB with the big archers. The dead Pegasi on the Western flank were right next to the wall.

C&C welcome, both with regards to deployment, my T1 and thoughts about what the Bretonnians should do :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:17 am 
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I guess elves would be my primary concern, vis a vis shooting.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:12 am 
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Your deployment is what it is, you said it yourself that blocking out your own SMs was a mistake but you did pretty well to match your elites v. his knights for the most part. The problem here is that your opponent has the advantage in mobility. Can he use it though?

I can't see this game going anywhere for the Brets unless your eagles die pretty soon. I had though of a couple of ways the Brets could make some headway into your lines by using the Peg. Knights and maybe even the Peg. Lord to block the movement of your SMs/another unit. That is assuming they survive your next turn, but then you can counter any moves he makes with eagles to protect your flanks/weak units. I would be targeting the eagles, with the WL/characters as a secondary target.

The more I think about it (and see it as I play Brets fairly often), this is a really hard match-up for the Brets. Even if they get rear or flank charges on your SMs/WLs it's tough for them to beat you in combat even with the bonuses this brings. They just don't have anything, bar good rolling of ward saves, that can really let them go toe-toe with our elites. To cap it all off, your opponent's pretty pathetic magic selection isn't going to do him too many favours either.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:00 am 
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After looking at your list and seeing turn one. I felt that it would be good to bring up a tactical option I use myself. Right now I have started to call it a go between unit for my characters. I would opt in adding a small unit of spears to you core. The reasoning is that on turn one most of your spells require u to advance some what to max your ability to cast per power dice usage. As noted with heavy casting IF will happen. The end result was the destruction of some of your special units.

A small unit of spear spread wide will negate IF casters hitting other casters as well as character. The tactical option here is that you can take advantage of mis placed characters for or againts your deployment. Having long bodies of units ie archers allows for greater travel of character placement. I haved used this option many time now to support flanks with character power. Unit of knights coming down my flank takes me a turn at best maybe two to join the unit with the bsb or prince.

Basically your using the spears to advance up the middle a bit to get in spell range. Or if the bsb is in the unit he is keeping the units ahead of him in place. I think fo re-the most part you got the idea. The only thing you would need to do now is break up and even out your archer units.

Small block of spears
2x units of archers witha BoEF.

I will set some time aside for a tactical report on this option.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:38 am 
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@SpellArcher - Elves likely don`t have as much shooting power as me. Exceptions include Wood Elves and very shooty-oriented lists. They are few and far between. As for Wood Elves, they should fear Death and Shadow quite a lot, as anything from Soulblight to Pit of Shades will devastate them.

@John Rainbow - I was really not hoping to have the Swordmasters stand alone against e.g. a bus and the Lord. I haven`t done the math for this, but I believe they`ll likely break against the massive combat res. While an Eagle can delay this for a turn, the nature of my split elites means that he will likely have another go at it. The remaining Pegasi present a similar threat as a potential combo-charge can be devastating. While Strange`s spell selection was unfortunate, Dwellers is still very powerful.

@Tarval - I don`t think spears are a good idea. The Archers can do the very same job and also provide some ranged power. In this particular matchup I couldn`t advance anways because of his mobility advantage. Between Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling, Spirit Leech and Soulblight there are enough spells to put pressure at him from a distance as well. It was poor of me to have the characters with the Lions, but this was due to poor deployment, nothing else.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:19 pm 
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The WE build considered strongest here is MSU shooting with no big trees. Dark Elves can do this slightly less effectively. I'm often seeing Hydras left at home now and lacking big targets like this Shadow is less effective. The HE bowline would be the other one I guess. There are no mounted troops in your list Curu, which is fine so long as you can win the ranged war.

But if these armies are not common where you play then no problem I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:23 pm 
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With thw lenght of a archer unit, you can join and move a great distance to change poor deployment. Ie if,your in the spear block or archer block. You can leave that unit, travel 9" to join another long block of troops. Placing om the front room another 9" away because the block is 10 men wide. I guess a tactical report would better explain it. Also the forward unit allows the bsb to transfer units to keep back and forward units in place.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Your units of SMs should be 5 wide in CC against him? You'll do 6W (or 7) with hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's. He is then left with half his unit remaining (or none if it's grail knights). He's then hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's with what, 7 attacks? He therefore does 4W and it's up to the horses to make up for it and actually beat you.

With characters it'll likely swing the other way (just) but you have the champ to challenge with and he has to accept or lose his ward (is this correct?).


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