Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:14 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:31 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Just got home from a very interesting game. Needless to say, lots of miscasts occured and the Star Dragon proved to be a tough foe. I'll hopefully get the report up tomorrow, in the meantime feel free to guess the outcome!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
I made a guess during the 3th or 4th turn. I was wrong :-6

Interesting game, much more fun to watch than football.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
I'm still interested in whether you think the 2 lvl2 + sorcery is worth its points over the simple lvl1 with crystal.

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Lord Anathir wrote:
I'm still interested in whether you think the 2 lvl2 + sorcery is worth its points over the simple lvl1 with crystal.

My experience thus far has been no because this doesn't mitigate the overall problem - you still struggle to get spells off against an opponent with a level 4. However, the extra spells are nice. I will be trying the dual mage approach on Wednesday this week and running (Beasts, High).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:58 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@rusty - I agree, there are very few things indeed (if any!) who beat watching an interesting Warhammer game :)

@Lord Anathir - I've never ran a level 1 with Crystal. I do think the level 2 with Crystal is great value though. If taking 2-3 mages is better, given the fact that we have Banner of Sorcery? I don't know, for now I'm testing out the viability of the Star Coven. If that fails, the next logical step will be to try other lores. As I outlined in a former post though, I think you need a good strategy for how to get crucial spells through.

@John Rainbow - I don't see why 2 level 2's would struggle against a single level 4? The average phase with BoS is 9v4, allowing you to cast 3 spells with 3D6. Assuming all are equally important to stop, the opponent will be very hard pressed to stop them all. Granted, not all phases are like this but if you check the distribution you'll quickly see that caster bonuses do not matter that much. The trick then is achieving a magic setup which allows you to do just this - cast multiple spells on 2-4D6 which are all of equal importance (or roughly so). In addition, these spells have to impact the game enough to justify the extra cost relative to having a single mage (who frequently works wonders on his own!). My initial thoughts with regards to this is that taking High Magic on both, with Ring of Fury on one of them, allows you to do just this: not only will you get a staggering 8 potential casts per turn, but you also achieve the possibility of doubling up on Shield of Saphery - a huge spell considering its cast value! You can also swap the Ring of Fury for Seerstaff, which is just plain brutal under ETC since you can choose the spells when the game starts. This allows you to for example double up on Flames or Vaul's. Ah, the options ;)

I'll start writing the report shortly, however I thought I'd start with a pre-battle clarification: how does the Sundering Icon interact with spellcasters relative to miscasts? Based on the wording of the rules, we decided the following (which I believe is correct):
- A spell is not cast if it fails to meet its casting value. Therefore, a spell you fail to cast cannot miscast because of the Sundering Icon
- A spell is cast if it meets its casting value even if it is dispelled. Therefore, a spell which is cast and then subsequently dispelled can cause a miscast because of the Sundering Icon
Do you agree with this? Please elaborate on your answer if you do not. Based on this clarification, I decided to go for a more 'risky' approach then usual, lowering the bar from ~90% success to ~75% success. Note that this was only a general guideline and depending on the flow of the game I was willing to completely ignore this if need be. However, the thought is that with a lower chance of success, you need good casts to get the spell past its casting value, which in turn means that most casts with double 1's and 2's at least will fail. Thus, I was hoping to avoid double 3's, which I considered the only real 'threat' relative to this strategy.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:55 pm
Posts: 107
^^^ The second part of that is incorrect. It says on page 34/9 in the magic section that a spell that fails to meet the casting value is not successfully cast -therefore it can not be subject to Blue Scribes or Sundering banner or etc. . . (otherwise Blue Scribes would be auto-take in every list). I'll find the exact quote later, but as England and France are playing, well you know that would take too much time (finding the brb anyway). :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
how does the Sundering Icon interact with spellcasters relative to miscasts?

I'm not sure how to rule on this one as it's in one of those grey areas of the rules. I will start by playing devils advocate though and ask why you think you are correct in that the spell has to go off successfully for you to miscast. You can miscast normally by IF without ever reaching the casting cost of the spell - it still goes off due to IF. Why then should you have to reach the casting value to get a miscast?

The rules for the banner say that 'whenever a spell from the lore of light is cast' the effect happens. Does this imply that the spell has to be cast successfully? I'm not sure.

A similar effect comes from the spell 'Pandaemonium' from the WoC book. In the WoC FAQ this is covered and simply states that the wizard must roll on the miscast on any double (or something to that effect). There is no mention of casting successfully or not. BTW, I'm not sure whether this should apply here or not.

Like I said, I'm simply trying to present the other side to this argument. I haven't come across anything conclusive on this one but I tend to think a casting roll of 1,1,2 for instance would miscast regardless of whether the spell goes off or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:13 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
How did the Vindicators perform against a Sundering Icon Daemons list?

:: Scourge of Light ::

My list:
Saerith with GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec, Star Dragon
BSB Naenor with RGoH, GW, DA
Mage lvl 2 crystal
Mage lvl 2 seerstaff

20 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames
15 Archers, Musician
10 Archers
10 Spearelves

21 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Amulet of Light
7 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Skeinsliver, Musician
5 White Lions

2 Great Eagles

Daemons' list:

Great Unclean One, Balesword, Toughness-test-if-you-wound-me
Herald of Khorne, Armour of Khorne
Herald of Khorne, Obsidian Armour
Herald of Tzeentch, Scroll

30 Bloodletters, Endless War, FC
29 Bloodletters, FC
5 Furies
5 Furies

1 Fiend
1 Fiend
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment ::

Terrain was set up in a mutually agreed manner. I won the roll-off for choosing sides so I took the one with tower + hill, rather than hill + woods. The original thought was to use the big rock in the middle to force his big blocks apart, however the amount of chaff he had would've led to a very hard deployment had I tried this I think things would quickly have gone south: effectively he 'out-chaffed' that side. Instead, I refused the flank (partially leaving his Flamers useless for a turn or two and also as a bunker for his Herald) and deployed around the Eastern hill.

I was happy with the deployment given his chaff. He cleverly waited with the blocks until the end, getting the shortest distance possible for them. Not much to do about this! Spell selection was very kind as my BSB grabbed Banishment and the Crystalmage got Pha's Protection! Woho! He grabbed Tzeentch's Firestorm and some poor spell, along with all-stats-to-1 and breath weapon from the GUO.

Image
His BSB was with the East Letters, the Endless War was on the West Letters

Rolling off for T1, I managed to get a '6' which he failed to match, giving the Elves the initiative.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Priority number one: kill that Herald. Since he was deployed directly across the Lions and Saerith, I figured that wiping these out quickly would be crucial. After this, I could use the Dragon to take on a block. The rest would have to whittle down the Greater Daemon slowly but surely while chaffing away the second block. Alrighty then, let's get to it!

Saerith moved up into charge range of the Flamers, taking care to stay outside of 18" from the Unclean thingy. The West shuffle to get better positions and the mages shift to get better Line of Sight.

Magic starts off with 8v4. He dispels the first cast of Banishment and scrolls the second. No miscasts though, and I'm fairly happy overall.

Shooting begins and I'm reminded why I hate Daemons as I manage 3W on the Great Unclean One and 1W on the Letters, only to see them all saved. If his saves would continue like this I would find myself in dire straits sooner than later.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

Well there wasn't too much to this turn, really. His Flamers backed up, taking care to be just within 24" of the Lions, meaning they had to be 19" within the Dragon. The rest of course marched full speed ahead, save for the Great Unclean One who slowed down a bit to keep a better angle, should Saerith fail his charge.

Magic saw him get an IF Firestorm, killing 7 Lions. The result? Blast template, both hits failed to wound. Not much to do here, at least I passed panic (many thanks to Naenor! I was very afraid after I rolled 11 on the first attempt).

Shooting did nothing as nothing was in range and so T1 was over with.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I figured an Eagle could block the Great Unclean One if I failed the charge. Things weren't going as well as planned either so I had no time to wait, besides killing the Herald + Flamers would greatly improve my chances! I declared the charge and luckily I made it!

His central Furies were in a poor position, but I had no units to send in front of them to block the Letters behind them. The Eagle could perhaps have done it (though it would be risky) but it was too far away. The rest shuffle again, making ready to sell their lives dearly if necessary T3.

Magic gives me the horrible box cars. This is arguably the worst result I can get, after stuff like 6+1. The result is 2 miscasts which kills Naenor (I rolled double 3's on both Banishment casts >.<) and wounds the Crystalmage as well as killing a handful of Archers. He dispels one of the Banishment casts and I manage a meager 2W on the Great Unclean One from the second. A steep price indeed!

This time the Archers fared a little better as the Daemonic protection failed 2 out of 3 wounds this time.

In combat Saerith shows why I believe in this guy's destructive potential as the Flamers were brought down to 2 or 3 wounds total before the instability test. A fairly high roll saw him go poof! and I reformed to face the centre.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

Full speed ahead! Magic is 5v4 and he manages to cast the reduce all stats to 1 thingy. Flamers kill 4 Swordmasters (panic passed). Not much more to say about this turn ^^

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith decides not to declare the charge, needing 10+ on Swiftstride. Instead, he flies up to flame them. I triple-block his Letters, intending to flee 2 units to force a failed charge. The other Letters are blocked by the remaining, proud Swords of Hoeth. The Lions charge the Fiend while the Eagle blocks the Great Unclean One.

Magic is 10v5 and the double 3's continue. I kill off the Crystalmage and leave the Seermage on 1W, dealing 3W to the Great Unclean One (luckily spell effects are prior to miscast effects, giving me S5 > S4). Shooting follows up and I bring the Daemon down to 1W. The Flame template however manages to only score 5 kills out of 18 (!!) hits.

Shooting is quite good as I bring the Greater Daemon down to 1W! In combat however I am shocked as my 9 Lion attacks manage 8 misses (!!), the last one wounds. In return, the Fiend kills no less than 4 Lions. What a disastrous combat. I hold due to Saerith being nearby.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 3 ::

The Letters charge the Lions, who flee, and then the Eagle, who flees. They're thus left stranded, 1" in front of the Spears. The other Letters charge the Swordmasters. Great Unclean One charges blocking Eagle. The 15 Archers are charged by the West Fiend.

Magic sees him fail to breach my defenses. Shooting kills a few Archers on the hill, panic is passed.

Combat - the Swords target the Herald with as many attacks as possible but fail to wound him. The reason was that I thought I'd never kill the unit and wanted to see if I could get lucky and kill him for some 'easy' points. However, 1+ armour saves are nothing to scoff at. The Great Unclean One kills the Eagle and overruns into the Lions, I challenge with the Guardian: 2 hits alter, I score 0 wounds and the proud elf dies beneath the monstrosity that is the Greater Daemon of Nurgle. I fail to kill the Fiend (what evil sorcery is this?) and he wins big, but I'm stubborn and hold and manage a combat reform.

The Swordmasters succumb to the Letters, who choose to overrun (thus killing the Lions) rather than reform (and be blocked by the Lions in their next turn). The Fiend beat the Archers who failed their steadfast break test and ran off the board.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Things weren't looking too good, but I wasn't ready to give up just yet. If I could manage to kill the Great Unclean One (currently in base contact with 2 Lions and with 1W remaining) and make an impact on one of the Letter blocks while keeping the other away, this wouldn't necessarily be that bad. Granted, a lot of things had to go my way, but as I've said a number of times you just gotta take these chances when you're in a tough spot.

Thus I charged Saerith into the rear of the Letters while the Spears reformed to block the other ones. The Archers took up better positions against the approaching chaff and the Seermage got vision to the Flamers.

Magic was 11v6 - a pretty horrible result given the fact that I only had Pha's and Banishment. I started with a 5D6 Pha's bubble (getting both the Lions and Saerith within its range) and managed to get two 6's this time! The miscast lost me a magic level (thus I lost Pha's) but the wizard survived at least ;)

Shooting did pretty well and I gunned down a couple of wounds from the Flamers.

Combat - Saerith unleashed his built-up rage at the destruction of his noble elves and won combat decisively against the Daemons. They reformed 7 wide (the minimum possible given the situation and combat reform rules) with the Herald in the second rank to face him, now down to ~18 models + the Herald if memory serves. The Lions managed 2W on the Great Unclean One, of which he finally missed the saves! In return I passed both toughness tests AND killed the Fiend. They were now 7 remaining and reformed to the Letters' flank, 4-wide.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

The big Letters reformed and moved towards me while the Furies blocked Lions and made ready for T5 moves, respectively. His Flamer was intent on killing the Eagle, knowing perfectly well it could ruin his day. Since he had no mages left it was straight to shooting and he managed to kill the bird. I passed both panic tests, many thanks to Saerith's 18" bubble.

Combat saw his Bloodletter champ challenge out Saerith, which was brilliant as he was still needing 5's to hit me. I rolled poorly and only managed a single wound. Against 2 ranks, a banner and BSB that meant I lost by 3. Luckily I passed the crucial 7- break test!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Lions charged the blocking Furies. Archers took up better positions with the Spears blocking the Letters.

Magic saw him get 4 dispel dice to my 7 power dice, however with only Banishment left I threw 5D6 at his Flamers, hoping to annihilate them. The casting total was poor but enough to beat the 13+ required (I boosted it to 'ensure' a poor roll would fail, thus not getting a miscast) as two 3's came up. This killed the mage and to add insult to injury, he dispelled it for no harm done to those Flamers.

Combat saw me declare Loec and I directed all Saerith's attacks on the Herald. I scored a single, crucial wound before he hit back. The result was 3 wounds on the Dragon. In return, Faeria split her attacks 50-50 and killed the Herald (who was the BSB) and a few Letters. Thunderstomp came up big and the unit was now down to ~13 models. He passed his instability test due to being steadfast. The Lions killed the Furies easily.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 5 ::

The Letters charged the Spears. Flamers killed a couple of Archers, forcing a flee due to failed panic. They were 1 model from being <25% so I could still rally on LD10 though! Furies decided not to chaff away the Lions. In combat, the Spears all directed their attacks at the Herald. 2 wounds were caused, and I was hoping for snake eyes... The first dice came up a '1' while the other was a '2'! So close :D Cries of 'ooooh' went up from around the table ;) In return the Spears lost a handful and I needed to pass a 4- test to keep them in place, which I failed by 2. They were caught and the Letters overran into Archers. Due to intervening models, he could only get 1 'Letter in base contact.

The Dragon kept doing what it does best and together, I managed to bring him JUST below steadfast. He failed his instability roll sufficiently to disappear.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

I decided to play it safe, not wanting the 3W Dragon nor the 2W Prince to suffer the wrath of a 'Letter horde for 2 turns for the chance of killing the Herald. I backed him out, together with the Lions. The Archers rallied, much to my liking!

In combat, the Archers lost 3 to his 3 attacks and broke, however he couldn't charge anything in his last turn due to distance (Lions) and front arc (last Archers).

Image

:: Daemons Turn 6 ::

He could either charge the remaining 6 Archers with the Fiend (who was within 10" - thus no S&S) or try his luck with the remaining Flamer. Since the Fiend was down to 1W, he chose the latter. He managed to kill 2, bringing me beneath 25%, but I passed the panic test and with that, the game was over!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up, I had an advantage because of bonus points: the BSB was dead, along with his General and a banner. My general was alive, the BSB died due to miscast and he hadn't captured either of my 2 banners. I was thus ahead by 523 points, a victory to the High Elves!

Evaluation will come later, in the meantime feel free to comment on this highly action-packed game :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:21 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Trains_Get_Robbed - I'm not sure what you mean here, did you read what I wrote carefully? The 2nd point concerns dispels, not casts.

@John Rainbow - Why I believe it's this way:

WoC Pandaemonium: "...all enemy spellcasters will Miscast on any roll of a double"

DE Ring of Hotek: "Any wizard ... attempting to cast or target a spell within 12" of the wearer will suffer a Micast on the roll of any double"

DoC Great Standard of Sundering: "...In addition, any spells cast from the Lore of Light will miscast on the roll of a double 1, 2 or 3."

BRB, P35, dispel: "If the Wizard was able to cast his spell ... the opposing player now has a chance to prevent the spell's effects by attempting to dispel it"

BRB, P32, casting value: "For a spell to be cast, the total of the dice rolled, added to the Wizard's level, must equal or beat the spell's casting value."

Combined, I take this to mean that a spell must meet the casting value to be cast, and even if it's dispelled it counts as being cast (it's merely its effects that are dispelled, the cast itself is not negated). I'm open to other opinions, but I haven't seen any good arguements yet ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
Combined, I take this to mean that a spell must meet the casting value to be cast, and even if it's dispelled it counts as being cast (it's merely its effects that are dispelled, the cast itself is not negated). I'm open to other opinions, but I haven't seen any good arguements yet ;)

I'll give you that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:08 pm
Posts: 1343
One thing to make sure DoC opponents play correctly. The toughness tests for wounding the GUO are taken AFTER instability and ONLY if he is still alive.

_________________
Defender of Ulthuan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:42 am
Posts: 405
Location: Merritt Island, FL USA
Curu,

How many dice were you throwing for your spells? It was unclear in the batrep, and it is very relevant to how the battle went.

Against the banner of sundering, I think the optimal spell strategy ought to be 2-dice casts of Shems followed by more risky 2 dice castings of banishment. That way your chance of miscasting is only 4/36=1/9 per cast (double 1,2,3 or 6), but you still have a decent chance of successful casting. It also makes your opponent decide between blocking the safe casts or risking the chance that you might roll high on your banishment casts. With your mage setup, you could have easily had 2 shems 1 banishment and possibly 2 shems 2 banishments. Anything above three 2-dice spells puts good pressure on your opponent's magic defense. Wasting a few dice is usually better than blowing up all your mages.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
.::Daemonic Evaluation::.
@Dark Reaper
Army Selection:
Choose Bloodthirster or KoS. I don't think the GUO works with this setup. Although Balesword is nice, catching something worth killing is hard. Also, only lvl 2 leaves you with a possible poor selection. My personal favorite is KoS with Siren Song, soul hunger, etc. It's vulnerable, but fast. And with the first turn you can force some very bad decisions on your opponent. I.e. Deploy in cover. Turn one, move 20", use siren song.

Deployment:
Your chaff (fiends and furies should deploy 6-8" forward, not on the backline. You should just make room in front of them so you can deploy your combat units (with 1" inbetween off course). Any further back and they will need more time on the advance. Also, they will be 28"-30" from the enemy deployment zone. In this matchup, you can confidently expect most of the archers to hang back, although some unit might hang up front to deploy banishment. If you're 30.5" away, you're "safe" from shooting. Also, you can deploy bloodletters in front as cover for your chaff.

With all the archers, hiding the GD behind a unit is a very viable strategy for hard cover.

Flamers should deploy more centrally. Remember, your effective range is 30" (12"+18").

Turn 1 and 2:
Flamers and GOU should be set up in such a way that a dragon charge would mean a GOU countercharge. That is, regardless if he gets stuck, destroys them and reforms, or overruns 7-11" you should be able to place the GOU charge arc in such a way that you could catch him. That way, you would have been able to advance both, and render the dragon unable to do anything useful for a turn. In this case, the dragon would probably fly up and flame bloodletters, but you wouldn't have lost your magic phase.

Turn 4
Bloodletters. Challenge with champion. Die. Reform five wide, with herald in second rank. Three Rank and file, musician and standard. Correct me if I'm wrong here. You now have full rank bonus and the Herald is protected. You can target the lord for 1/24 chance of killing blow, or three combat rounds. In that case you will still have the dragon to contend with afterwards. Or you can kill the dragon. 1/9 chance to wound for BL, 3/4 for herald equals 1-2 wounds every combat round, four combat rounds to kill. The dragon will kill maybe 5-7 letters each round. The dragon should just about die before the unit does, if nobody else intervenes. It's a close call, either way. But now you would have had a chance.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
.::HE Evaluation::.
Not much to add really. Lose , and there will be more to comment :-6

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
Quote:
@Lord Anathir - I've never ran a level 1 with Crystal. I do think the level 2 with Crystal is great value though. If taking 2-3 mages is better, given the fact that we have Banner of Sorcery? I don't know, for now I'm testing out the viability of the Star Coven. If that fails, the next logical step will be to try other lores. As I outlined in a former post though, I think you need a good strategy for how to get crucial spells through.


For ~250 points more it should be better, but worth more then ~16 elite infantry/3 tiranoc chariots ?

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:46 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@John Rainbow - if you find any other good arguments, let me know ;)

@Keith - reading 'Pestilent Mucus' description I'm not sure I follow. Has there been a change here, by a FAQ or something?

@krysith - I had the option of taking Shem's but I opted for Timewarp instead. The reason was that a Timewarped Dragon is just brutal, as is Timewarped Lions. Shem's would've been a 3rd magic missile, which I doubt I would need.

I mostly cast with 4D6. Remember that the Icon also deducts 2 from your casting total. With level 2 mages (or 1, in the case of the BSB) this means that I need the dice to meet 10+ (or 11+, respectively). Casting with 4D6 when you need 10+ has a ~90% chance of success. The boosted version, at 13+, has a 66% chance on 4D6. Reducing to 3D6 gives 62.5% and 26%, respectively. 2D6 is the same as praying for luck and if it gets through it's easily dispelled. As far as Shem's concerned, I could've 2-diced it but with S4 it isn't really that useful here.

@rusty - I agree that GUO is unlikely to be optimal here (though honestly I could be wrong, it takes a LOT of heat to bring down), but in this particular matchup it is probably the worst thing for me to face and I did ask for the meanest list possible. A Keeper with Siren Song is powerful, yes, but it has so many poor matchups. I believe it can work with Spirit Swallower, since this gives Daemons a really nice tool against one of their most hated matchups: Ogres. Without it, the Keeper is basically a freekill whatever he tries to do. With it, he's unstoppable if he can reach combat.

Chaff was a little too far behind, but I think most importantly they were focused too much on the Western side of things mid-game. With better help on the East, it might've been easier to get favourable combats. Flamer placement is usually not bad, but given the fact that the Tzeentch Herald had to go with them, I would've preferred a more central placement indeed. Food for thought - is it worth taking the Disc for this guy?

T1&2 - if the GUO wants to help the Flamers I kill the Sundering Icon bearer fairly quickly, leaving my mages free to do as they please. If the Great Unclean One turns away from the 'Letters, I can fly up and flame them one turn, charging the next. Also, placing the GUO like this he'll face even more heat before he gets close to me. I think that leaving the Flamers where they were, given the deployment, was a reasonable decision: I have a roughly 50% chance of making the charge and if I don't I have to spend an Eagle just to save the Prince (since he would be in the GUO's charge arc if he failed his own charge) which is not a bad case for the Daemons.

T4 - if he challenges me with the Champion here he can reform 6 wide minimum (since I am in base contact with 4 normal models and the 2 remaining command must be placed in the front rank). If the Herald goes to the second rank then I can challenge him, forcing him to the front or to the back. Remember that they were weakened quite a bit from the Flame + first round of combat. Also, if he reforms this early I can rear-charge him with Archers and force his Herald to accept the challenge: leaving 6 Bloodletters capable of attacking in total.

@Lord Anathir - one can probably write pages through pages on this matter, but I think it needs to be tested before any conclusions can be reached. As I haven't tried it yet, I feel I'm not in a position to say 'yes it's worth it' or 'no it's not'. Suffice is to say that it's an interesting approach. On the points-side of things, the most you can spend on the extra mage is 185 points, which (with the Banner) weighs in at 235. However, lots of strategies revolve around the Seerstaff, in which case the added cost is 'just' 215.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:31 pm
Posts: 434
On turn 2, I'm not sure why you went for the heavy magic phase. You already have his BSB in combat, and it should be wiped that round, meaning you'll have 4 more turns of non-miscasting goodness to enjoy. I could see going for some heavy casting if the charge failed, but the combat was a surefire thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:15 pm
Posts: 442
On T6, what is your distance to the flamer/fiend?
Can you charge either with the dragon and then overrun off the board to be safe from the 'letters?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:04 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Baeronvonbleat - I assume you misunderstood: the Tzeentch Herald is not his BSB: one of the Khorne Heralds had the Icon of Sundering. I didn't have a chance to kill him until way later.

@f00ssa - We play with Simple Line of Sight and in that system you cannot see across hills. Both units were out of LoS from the Dragon.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: Cathy
Curu Olannon wrote:
@Keith - reading 'Pestilent Mucus' description I'm not sure I follow. Has there been a change here, by a FAQ or something?


FAQ. Says End of "Combat Phase"

_________________
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:43 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Thanks for the clarification :) It seems a bit weird with regards to the rules, but for 25 points it would be pretty ridiculous if it had been instantaneous.

We had a really epic siege battle yesterday. Some truly devastating home rules really impacted the game in unforeseen ways. You can check this thread for our initial thoughts, first draft of the rules, lists etc: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=40031

I'll post a more thorough description of the battle along with a few pictures (though they're sadly quite blurry and low-resolution) in a couple of days. Also, I will get an evaluation of the last Daemon game up ;)

With regards to Siege, if you intend to play it I highly recommend making your own rules for it. In a way like Storm of Magic, I find that it's highly entertaining but you can quickly tire from it. Personally I think that there's way too much focus on the first part of the game relative to a normal game of Warhammer. Perhaps this just illustrates my limited understanding of how to play these kind of scenarios, but I do believe that with a little list-tuning and home rules it can be a lot more interesting: the problem appears to be that a clear trend is evident after Turn 2 and the remaining turns is all about mopping up so to speak.

Anyways, I'll get some more stuff up soon :) In the meantime, feel free to share your opinions on the last game, special scenarios like Siege or Storm of Magic and house rules or whatever else you fancy!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:24 pm
Posts: 421
First off, let me thank you for all the hard work you have put into this thread. It is quite a thing you got here!

I have some questions regarding the deployment phase in your most recent game versus the Demons. Now I know it was a month ago, so I understand if you don't remember the details, but I would like to know them!

Seeing as your demi-coven Star Dragon list is extremely low on bodies (especially on elite bodies), I figured it would pretty much always want to castle up. Now I understand hindsight is 20/20 (trust me, I find at least 5 blatantly obvious mistakes in every game I play). I guess I say this because by rearranging everything in the first round, your archers were unefficient: moving is -1 to hit, which is 1/6 lost potential. You spent 500+ points on 30" bows, but you moved them the first turn!? So one criticism I have is that you needed recognize that castling up in the corner was the best option, especially against 2 bloodletter hordes with your main combat block being only 21 strong.

With that being said, despite your less than ideal deployment situation, why move the archers at all? Given how sparse that flank was, I figured you could have kept the archers stationary and moved your white lions in a way to support them, rather than the other way around.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:35 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
First of all, apologies for the extreme lack of activity recently. This summer's been a blast but the internship and social activities related to it have forced me to take a break from Warhammer.

Tomorrow I'm headed back home and hopefully I'll get painting and playing again before too long :) I'll also try and post up the promised stuff from my last post within a couple of days.

@Jaith - thanks a lot for your input. The game is indeed a long time ago, but I think I remember it quite well, regardless.

Deployment was made to try and force him to leave the big blocks in a central postion, so that I could commit against one horde at a time. To fruther enhance my position, I wanted the Lions on the opposite flank of his second horde, so that his 'most dangerous horde' would be in a weak position unless he could neutralize the Lions. To this end, the Archers had a somewhat poor spot, relative to shooting. I think that if I had tried to corner up, he could've positioned both of his blocks better and additionally I would've had a harder time redirecting and chaffing him away. Essentially, by semi-castling or refusing a flank instead of going out-all Dwarf-style, I lose some ballistic efficiency but gain a positional advantage along with superior mobility choices.

I don't view the Archers as a 500+ point shooting-investment, although they do grab a few casualties here and there their ability to provide bodies for the mages as well as decent combat power are just as important. I of course agree that ideally I would have them stay still to maximise their damage output as well, but in this matchup I don't think it would be possible. If you see how I could've completed the deployment with the advantages discussed above without having to move the Archers, please share :) The problem is the amount of chaff which the Daemons brought to the table here. The main reason I had to move them was to get into that corner and thus chaff away the 2nd horde. I think I managed this quite well and am not sure I would've succeeded without moving them.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12725
Location: Otherworld
Nice to see you're still alive Curu...

:)

Following the ETC?

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:42 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Thanks, SA :) I'll be active on a more regular basis from now on.

As for the ETC - thanks for reminding me! I really have been so busy that I completely forgot about it. Not sure where I can get live info: the best I could get right now was an update from this morning with the top 5 tables. Will be interesting to hear what the various teams and players think about the tournament when it's all over! I did get a quick look at the lists earlier this summer and indeed a lot of interesting HE combinations. Naturally the unqiue context of this tournament allows for some rather wacky builds, but nevertheless it all boils down to two players facing off with two armies ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:22 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12725
Location: Otherworld
Your timing is excellent Curu, Rod's just gone on holiday!

Poland leading after 4 rounds, then Germany, Austria, England I think. I'll post up a useful link in Warhammer Fantasy but Twitter is the best place I guess.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 800
Location: San Diego, CA
Glad to see you back Curu. I was beginning to miss your fantastic reports and analysis.

_________________
My Plog - Tele's Torpid Painting Log


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:36 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Hamburg - Germany
After reading your blog twice already I really hope for more to come. :D It has been a long time since I was inspired by an army concept. My next tournament will feature a very similiar list.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@SpellArcher - yeah Poland took it home, no surprises there. England made a very strong appearance though! Unfortunately there were no HE in the top 3, I'm very excited to see the fraction-based results though I fear that HE will, again, be relatively poor.

@Teledor - thanks, hopefully I'll get a game going within a couple of weeks. I'll try and post up the missing stuff from the last couple of events before that, though :)

@Gwydion - Twice? That's quite an endeavour! When is your next tournament and what list do you intend to field?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:36 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Hamburg - Germany
Yours. Exactly. :lol: (not the Star Coven) But I think that Furions Dragon list is really good as well. I will try yours and a Variant of Furions (his two Tiranocs are quite ace I think) and then I will see where this will lead to. I´m painting my dragon at the moment (nearly 40hours now and not even 50 % finished - next tourney is in three weeks :? ).


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group