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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:33 am 
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Nice job Curu, I'm at a loss as to why he took 2 blocks of tomb guard and no prince/king to pass on weapon skill? :-(

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:58 am 
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What Jimmy said. The WS buff from princes and Kings combined with a lvl 4 Hierophant with lore of light has made a mess of my Helfs on more than one occasion. Three to be precise.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Hey Curu,

With the list he was fielding, he's got the problem of generally low strength in the army. To solve this, I'd have been looking to the Incantation of Dessication (I think that's what it's called). Regardless, it's the Tomb Kings -S and T spell, and I'd be looking to beef it up to reduce the stats by D3 instead of 1 and plunk that on the dragon, then direct every single shot I had on it that turn. I don't think this is unfeasable; he has 6 spells in the lore, so getting the spell shouldn't be hard, and he has a level 4 vs your +3 to dispel, the casket adding 3 power dice and the heirotitan adding a further D3 to his casting values. 6 dice should pretty confidently blast the spell through. Righteous smiting would be a bonus, but just his standard shooting should be good for a couple wounds.

Second goal would be to get something with killing blow in combat with the prince. Sphinx isn't a terrible choice, but the spell that confers killing blow makes any block an option really.

His key problem, in my opinion, lies in the list - low mobility, little access to high strength and nobody to buff the combat abilities of the expensive blocks.

Personally, I think that 2x hordes are a terrible idea for tomb kings. In an army that has an inability to march, having two big unwieldy blocks just serves to amplify what is already one of the biggest weaknesses of the list. With one horde, you can create the imperative to engage it by also having enough ranged threat, but with two enormous blocks that can't march, it's far, far too easy to predict their movement and walk (or in your case fly) circles around them.

I also agree with Jimmy and Francis that not having a king/prince/necrotect is a bad idea too; one of the biggest advantages Tomb Kings have is that they have the ability to buff their troops without magic.

Here's an example of the list I fielded in the game that I did play:

Liche High Priest, 4++, Earthing Rod, Level 4, Lore of Nehekara
Liche Priest, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Light
Liche Priest, Lore of Light

Tomb Prince, Chariot, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm

20 x Skeleton Archers
5 x Chariots, Full Command
5 x Horse Archers
5 x Horse Archers
5 x Horse Archers

6 x Necro Knights, Full Command
2 x Warsphinx w/ Roar

Heirotitan
Casket of Souls

Essentially I'd use one Sphinx for the Lions block, and one for the dragon. The Necro Knights are also a big threat to the prince with killing blow. Shouldn't be too tough to cover the Dragon's approach by using a combination of those units to create a suppression zone.

Level 1 liche spam is also very viable with the Heirotitan, since the +D3 can effectively make them cast like a level 3 or 4 each spell.

Anyway, just some food for thought, in case you have to face the Kings again in the tournament!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:41 pm 
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@Nicene - Lizards are just generally a strong army and they seem to have an answer to everything. The reliability of the Slann coupled with the deadly poison and mass mobility is always tough to deal with. Also, Ogre lists will be very hard for me simply due to the fact that everyone fields 2 Ironblasters which will simply rape my Dragon (with move AND shoot it's so much harder to hide). Heavy Goblins could indeed be a problem, luckily they're not that popular.

@Jimmy - the idea behind his army was to use the Lore of Light to help the units out. In this case, Speed of Light negates the advantages of a Tomb King - a character which I believe is fairly sub-optimal. Somewhere along the path though he forgot the key principle - boosting with Lore of Light.

@Brewmaster_D - thanks for the comments, I'll make sure he reads it. Without any hordes though, I can be way more aggressive with the Lions: my Eagles have one single purpose (ensure the Sphinxes can only hit me when I want them
to) and the Tomb Kings won't cover enough area to force fights on their terms.

Anyways, we'll have a rematch tonight and this time his list is featuring a Light Wizard! I think that prioritizing dispels will be way harder when I'm looking at -S -T, Pha's, Speed of Light AND +1A all possibly being cast in a single turn. I will, of course, try and get the report up as soon as possible (most likely tomorrow).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:14 am 
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Hey everyone. I'm the Tomb Kings player and would like to thank you for the feedback. The game on Sunday had a bit weird list. The first draft had 2 hordes and 3 light mages, but couldn't get the points to work out. Then light mages disappeared and it all got a bit strange. The idea of two hordes was that 1 horde is quickly outmanouvered forcing someone on to one of them. Perhaps not as easy against a dragonlist

As for asking why no King/Prince? For the same price as a equipped Tomb King I can get a lvl4 Light wizard with scroll. You will see in the upcoming report how powerful it can be, placing the buffs were you want is easier than trotting a king around. You'd think charging 26 White Lions in to the front and 10 Swordmasters in the flank of Tomb Guard was a sure thing, this time it actually got interesting :)

Playing against Curu is a rather bewildering experience at the best of times. The extreme mobility of his hitting power and redirectors makes it really hard to evaluate all his options. If you try a to counter his movement, you probably just opened up 2-3 new moves for him.

Thanks again, and I'd appreciate any tips or feedback after the next battle report aswell.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Hey Strange,

Thanks for taking the time to post here! It always adds so much to the discussion when you get to hear both sides of the equation.

Just for the record - I don't think your list is a bad list. I just think that Curu's highly mobile list is a hard counter to the standard horde style of playing. Because of the lack of mobility of those blocks, he gets to choose when and where he engages them every time.

With that in mind, it becomes critical to try to predict the Dragon's approach before the game even starts, and do everything you can to make that approach difficult. As an example of what I mean, here is a game I played versus a Chaos Lord on a Dragon. Essentially I was faced with a similar predicament as you - I had the ability to deal with the threat via ranged means, but his Dragon was much more mobile than the majority of my army. In response, I deployed my troops with this in mind, using intersecting charge arcs to create a huge "do not fly" zone for his dragon. No lord on a dragon wants to engage a horde early on, and certainly not alone. Doubly so when the blocks have killing blow!

In your own game, I look at your deployment, and I see the same thing Curu saw - a nice spot to land the dragon right behind that rock. Move that Warsphinx on the Eastern Side of that rock, and you've got a whole new ballgame. It's far too risky for him, even with the Talisman of Loec, to engage that sphinx early on. T8 is pretty ugly even for a S7 dragon, and the risk of killing blow is enough to deter that line of approach. This forces the Dragon to move more conservatively, and affords you more time to try to deal with it via. ranged means - the strategy I mentioned before, or with the casket of souls.

Essentially what I'm saying is that part of dealing with a dragon is using your own army to limit its mobility.

Really excited to read the upcoming report of your rematch! I really think having access to lore of light is a huge boon to the Tomb Kings, and I see it as being a critical option for them to have to circumvent some of their key weaknesses.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:40 pm 
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I will address your replies later, have no fear ;)

Last night saw a rematch between Strange and myself! This time his list featured a Level 4 Light Wizard, which in my opinion makes it that much stronger. To manage this, he needed to get rid of a few things so a couple of changes were made. I also realized I could swap the points around a little - ditching the Talisman of Protection and Ironcurse Icon to include the Gleaming Pennant on Swordmasters!

Anyways, without further ado:

:: My Might Cannot Be Matched ::

The lists -

:: High Elves ::

Saerith with GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec, Star Dragon - 622
BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, HoF, Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Eagle - 208
Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal - 175

Characters - 1005

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core - 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Skeinsliver, Musician, STD w/Gleaming Pennant - 270

Special - 720

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare - 150

Total - 2500

:: Tomb Kings ::
Level 4 Wizard - Nehekara, Earthing Rod
Level 4 Wizard - Light, Scroll
20 Archers, FC
20 Archers
20 Archers
3 Chariots
5 Horse Archers
5 Light Cavalry

35 TG, FC
30 TG, FC, Halberds

Hierotitan
Casket of Souls
Warsphinx


:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I rolled Vaul's and Curse. Pretty decent, considering my spells were all fairly useful. He originally got neither Pha's nor Timewarp, but since this was a tryout for this type of list I suggested he simply re-roll for Lore of Light spells - after all you only miss out on BOTH of those spells like 1 in a hundred games (yes, he rolled 2,3,4,5). He ended up grabbing Shem's, Pha's, Speed and Banishment. Nehekara got 0,3,4,5.

This time around, I knew Tomb Kings a lot better so I had a better idea of how to approach this. I do think his list was a lot stronger though, so it would be interesting! Terrain wasn't as favourable as last time, but I reckoned I could do ok. My goal was to force his Sphinx through a Gauntlet of shooting + magic if it wanted to reach something valuable and save my infantry for when the monster had been killed. The terrain meant that the centre would be pretty crowded but in this situation my mobility, Eagles and supreme hitting power per frontage really shine so I was confident I could handle this.

Image

As usual, my +2 ensured me first turn!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Ok so last encounter taught me that the Sphinx needs to die before I commit my Lions. As such I decided to keep both units of infantry behind my main lines, advancing the Archers to get LoS and range to the big beast. Saerith moved West, basically to force him to make a tough choice - provide me with a really good charge on the Chariots and draw him out, or pull them back and basically never have them able to interfere with my flank. Naenor moved in the same direction to provide that crucial re-roll where it mattered most. Eagles moved to waiting positions, eager to play their usual roles once I needed them.

Magic came up 7v5 - I cast Drain on a very good roll on 3D6 which he fails to dispel with 4D6. I then cast Curse on his Sphinx on another good roll and the scroll comes out. So far, so good!

Shooting sees all my 45 shots target the Sphinx. The result is 2 wounds, but he saves them both.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 1 ::

So he moves up his 2 blocks and the Sphinx fairly fast (for being Undead at least). Chariots decide to back off, after a couple of minutes worth of contemplating. I think that he really considered giving them up - this would basically force my hand and commit either both flyers (for Light of Death protection) or none to the Western flank - leaving anything happening on my Eastern flank a big gamble (LD8 terror tests...).

Magic came up 7v4 and he debuffs my big Archers with -1S, -1T. I dispel a Pha's bubble on 4v4D6.

Shooting sees him kill 6 Archers, 3+ to wound hurts!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Since Saerith's move saved the Western flank from any trouble, I move him and Naenor back to a central position. The Lions move out of the house and the Spears move up to block his light cavalry. The Swordmasters move to a flanking position while an Eagle blocks his Sphinx.

Magic is 3v3 and he barely dispels curse!

Shooting sees me put 3 wounds on the Sphinx and this time he only saves 1.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 2 ::

Sphinx charges blocking Eagle (I pass Terror due to LD10), the Light cavalry decide to test their luck against my Spears. The rest move up but it's painfully obvious that it's getting very crammed very quickly.

Magic is a huge 12v8. He starts with Smiting on the sphinx, which I fail to dispel by 1 on 3v4D6. He then debuffs my big Archers again AND gets a Pha's bubble up. I dispel Light of Death.

Shooting again kills 6 Archers and I pass my panic test.

Combat sees him barely (!) kill the Eagle, despite Smiting. He elects to overrun, hoping for that 11+ to catch my Archers but only getting a '4' and a '2'. My Spears win, crumble them and reform to face the Horse Archers blocking my Lions.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith and Swordmasters into Sphinx, Spears into Horse Archers. Eastern Archers with Olannon move up for support. Central Archers reform (18 left), as do the Lions (to fit in - diagram a little misleading). I move my Western Eagle in a move which is basically meant to force him to commit and allows me to either charge the Casket (and pray I get lucky) or block something in the middle of the upcoming fight. I forgot to move Naenor this turn, which was hugely annoying.

Magic is 6v6. I opt for a 3x 2D6 casting strategy which sees Curse on his Tomb Guard get through. I could arguably have done 3+3 here, but he only really fears Drain in my opinion and he knows this.

Shooting kills a couple of Tomb Guards.

Combat sees the Swordmasters manage the crucial 4 wounds needed (even with Pha's their amazing amount of attacks gave me enough hits to score those 4 6's) and I reform them to screen Saerith, while he reform to face middle. My plan here was to see how he'd react with his rearmost Archers (they contained both casters) - the central Archers weren't too far away and they had no champion...

Spears kill and crumble all Horse Archers.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 3 ::

His Tomb Guard try and charge Saerith - they need a 10+ and promptly fail. The other Tomb Guards charge the blocking Eagle (I didn't dare letting them straight into Swordmasters - if they'd won he could've overran into Saerith and besides this gives me little flexibility).

Magic is 10v6. He starts by debuffing Swordmasters by -1S, -1T which I let through since he has Halberds anyway (thus wounding me on 2+) and there are far worse spells. He then casts a Pha's bubble on 3D6 and gets a very good roll so I let it through as well. He's left with 4v6D6 and I dispel both spells on 2v3D6.

Shooting sees his Western Archers dispatch my Eagle, unfortunately. 4 Swordmaster die as well. Combat sees his Tomb Guard kill the Eagle and overrun into Swordmasters.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Lions are 12" away from the Tomb Guard and because of +1M I need to roll a 6+ to make the charge. I have the Archers with Olannon on my other flank and they charge as well. The Lions come up just short though as I roll 5! Saerith charges the central archers (big play is revealed!) and makes it easily, needing 7+. Naenor moves up.

Magic is 3v3 and luckily I get Shield on Swordmasters.

Combat - I resolve the Prince's combat first and I elect to breath fire here to ensure I crumble them: as I score no less than 12 hits this is easily taken care of and I overrun into his juicy bunker, using my charge wheel (which, contrary to popular belief, is something you do get if your overrun brings you into contact with a new enemy) to be in base-to-base with both of his casters. The Swordmasters and Archers perform admirably and bring down nearly a dozen Tomb Guard. I lose a few in return but he crumbles badly and only has 9 left.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 4 ::

His remaining Temple Guard charge my Lions. Hierotitan moves behind his bunker (diagram shows this in my T5). Chariots move to flank Saerith.

Magic is again huge as it's 12v7. -S -T on WL dispelled on 3v4D6. This is a poor decision by me, because although it seems like a lot there are indeed far worse spells out there: he gets Pha's up on them (I realize Speed is crucial) and he casts Speed with IF on 3D6! Wow... The result wounds each mage once.

Combat sees his 9 TG die badly to Swordmasters and I reform to have them face the poor Lions and the Archers to face his bunker. Saerith kills the champion and we move to the Lions.

Now, let me tell you something - Lions aren't used to having bad one on one matchups. Against undead they expect to have roughly 2 wounds out of 3 attacks. Well, him being WS10 and me being -1 to hit and no re-roll certainly did change things! I got some very good rolls however and killed a handful which ensured that the combat was a draw! Still, Lions drawing a combat one-on-one isn't something I'm used to. More importantly, this came from the fact that he was casting something as ridiculously cheap as 6+ and 8+!!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

My remaining 7 Swordmasters charge the Tomb Guard in the flank while Naenor and the Archers assault his bunker.

Magic is 5v4 and he dispels Shield (attempted on Swordmasters) and I get Drain through.

Combat sees his Hierophant challenge, Naenor accepts so that Faeria can go to down. Predictably, I kill enough to crumble the entire unit, giving me something like 7-800 Victory Points. Naenor overruns into the Hierotitan.

The Lions aren't as lucky this time and even with help from the Soldiers of Hoeth I lose by 2. Seriously, I have 28 elite infantry Elves fighting against roughly the same amount of Undead and I lose combat by 2. The Lions break as I roll 11 for their test, however the Swordmasters pass their 8- test (Saerith was in range), though they're precious few remaining. He reforms to face my Swordmasters instead of having me in his flank.

Crumble tests are mostly mild.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 5 ::

Again crumble tests don't do too much. I really could've done with him being reduced a bit more: he did lose 2W on his Hierotitan though.

Chariots charge my Archers (it's a long charge but he makes it), hoping to assassinate Olannon which has 1W left.

Magic sees me dispel one bound while Light of Death is cast with IF - Naenor's re-roll ensures I take no damage.

Combat - Swordmasters are reduced to only a couple but I pass my test, losing by 1. Naenor kills the Hierotitan. The chariots lose a wound to Stand and Shoot but I can't wound them in melee. He scores 4 (!!) hits on Olannon but no wounds (!!!). I pass my break test.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

Saerith charges the Casket while Naenor flanks the Chariots. Annoyingly enough, my Lions fail to rally (netting him 225 Victory Points as per ETC rules). Magic is skipped as I don't believe there's any value to casting anything.

Combat - the Swordmasters die and he reforms to face Naenor + the Archers. His casket dies but nothing's in range save for Saerith, which takes no damage. Naenor and Archers kill the Chariots and reform to face the Tomb Guard.

Image

:: Tomb Kings Turn 6 ::

Crumble sees his Tomb Guard drop to 16 models. He charges Archers and if I flee, he'll redirect into Naenor and I pretty much have to flee with him as well. Since he needs 7+ I decide to take my chances and Stand and Shoot, killing 2. He makes the charge and kills enough to safely win the combat. I fail my break test and he runs me down!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

While his last unit of Tomb Guard - ending the game like 12 strong (with the West Archers being 9 strong!) - took a lot of points, he basically had nothing left. Despite lots of my units being terribly out of shape, I had lots of points left on the table (big archers + saerith + naenor) and so I won by roughly 1000 victory points (as per ETC calculation, barring the -10%). A 16-4 victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

This sure was an interesting game to play! I believe I could've taken some more points and managed close to a 20-0, given my good position after his Sphinx died. What prevented me from managing this? It's hard to point at one thing in particular, but after my Spears and central Archers really did what I needed them to do early on, I failed 100% at using them supportingly when I really could've used their aid. My Eastern Archers with Olannon truly showed their worth as they charged in and saved my Swordmasters. They are Elves after all and WS4 ASF attacks is actually somewhat useful against poor infantry. I think that at the moment, this is where my play can improve the most: properly using the core to aid my specials. Back when I first ran the Cavalry Prince, I was pretty good at doing this but T7 Spears with a hard-hitting BSB is quite different from naked Archers. I feel I'm getting better at this, but I think I must try and read the future of the game somewhat better to be able to use it now: in this game I anticipated the Swordmasters being charge by Tomb Guards and I moved my Archers early enough to tip this combat in my favour: if I had somewhat managed the same in the centre I might've been able to grab a 20-0 here.

Tomb Guard with Light backup sure is scary. As I anticipated, the spells from Lore of Light complement these REALLY well. Between the Nehekhara spells and these, there are simply too many high-priority things to take care of. Bear in mind that I did sport the Annulian this game. Armies that only have a dispel scroll will truly struggle as the magic strategy is trickle-based. I am very unsure of how best to utilize this synergy though, but I do believe it's one of the better builds for Tomb Kings. One thought I had was to include a Necrotect with Armour of Silvered Steel: when they're in horde formation he can be placed on the extreme flank so it's hard to allocate against him.

The question then remains - how do you build such an army? 1 Sphinx, 2 Guard units? 2 Sphinxes, 1 Guard unit? Can you afford to drop the Hierotitan when his +D3 to cast REALLY shines with this strategy (boosting -S, -T takes it to 22+ in which case a level 4 could really use +D3, not to mention the casting value on Birona's Timewarp Bubble). I'm sure Strange would appreciate any and all input here. My personal thoughts at the moment, if points permit, are as follows:

- 2x20 Archers
- 2x5 Horse Archers
- Chariots to fill core
- 2x35 TG, FC
- 1 Sphinx
- 1 Hierotitan
- 1 Casket
- 1 LVL 4 Nehekhara, 4+ ward, earthing rod
- 1 LVL 4 Light, scroll
- Necrotect w/2+, luckstone

I hope you enjoyed the report :)

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:29 am 
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The HE killing machine marches on :). Nice report.

@Strange
I'm wondering if 35 isn't a bit small for TG. They can't easily be healed, and die quickly. But I think you're onto something here. Keep trying. The dragon list isn't exactly the ideal opponent for TK.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:19 am 
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Exciting report! What was the reasoning behind charging the Spears with the light cavalry? I don't know their stats but it seems like it was just suicidal and also set the other unit of cavalry up for death as well. Did they have a realistic chance of winning?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:09 am 
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Cavalry WS2, S3, T3, I2, Ld 5
Horse WS2, S3, T3, I2, Ld 5

10 Spearmens have a good chance of killing them.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:16 am 
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@rusty - You might be onto something here. Given the ease with which TK can boost (especially with Lore of Light), perhaps a single, large unit is better? I'm thinking 49 + Necrotect, what are your thoughts?

@Nicene - it was an exciting game too ;) His reasoning was that it would be impossible to get them away and he might as well try and get the bonus from charging to avoid instacrumbling. I guess he didn't consider that I would get a free reform by winning and thus wipe out the Horse Archers without using the Lions.

@pk-ng - I failed my fear test actually but I still killed them rather easily.

I don't know when or what my next game will be, the next couple of weeks are really tight. I'll let you know though, in the meantime I'll post up some musings and evaluations with regards to the current list draft.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:09 am 
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TG:40-49 w 'tect. Use spare points, if any, on a catapult to encourage the enemy to come to them.

I find it a general problem in army composition that two of something big and good, does not equal better. One powerful horde, supported by characters, magic, chaff and shooting can be very good. Two hordes means you don't necessarily have the points for the necessary supporting units that make the big unit good.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:57 pm 
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I strongly believe that Sphinxes are an amazing value for what they do, and I'm going to cast my vote in the "two sphinxes" category.

Two opens up a whole new plethora of possibilities, and adds the redundancy you need in case of things like cannons etc.

When I look at tomb kings, I think about what they do well and what they don't do well. They absorb damage well (T8 models, ability to raise back wounds), they can produce some staggeringly effective combat units and they have the most powerful magic phase so far out of the 8th edition books (They're the only ones that can reliably produce more power dice, for example).

One of the more common problems I see with many Tomb Kings lists is that they're written similar to the "standard" warhammer list. I feel they should take a much different approach, given the nature of their army. I'll use an analogy to describe it - think of the enemy like water. They're faster than you, and if you let them, they'll just envelop you. Take this match, for example. Curu's fast moving army just surrounded the army and enveloped one unit at a time. Given, Curu's army is particularly good at doing this, but it's not a stretch of logic by any means to say that most armies could accomplish something similar against an army that is by and large moving 4" a turn.

So getting back to my water analogy, I feel that the sphinxes act as tide breakers. They're hard, immovable objects that stop the flow where you need it stopped. Essentially it allows you to divide the enemies force into manageable elements. Two sphinxes gives you more versatility in this, and with two you also have the option of going on the offensive - very little can survive a head on assault from two of these things, and the risk of crumbling is very low with the damage output from two.

I also agree with Rusty that the way to go is one big unit if you're going TG horde. As we've witnessed twice now, their lack of movement makes it too tough to get two units engaged at the same time.

Strange - I love the addition of the lore of light here. When I've fielded Tomb Kings in the past, I've gone the route of multiple level 1's on the lore of light with the Heirotitan. I find that his ability to add D3 to each spell makes it possible for level 1's to actually cast effectively, and having disposable level 1's makes me feel more confident putting them in more risky spots to get more use out of the bubble versions of the spells. Have you considered taking this route at all, as opposed to the 2x Lvl 4 you fielded here? It also gives you more chances to channel, which has worked well for me in the past, as well as giving you a mini-coven type of threat level if one should get banishment.

Some food for thought.

D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback. I see know that all questions you guys have can be answered by that my other army is Dwarfs :lol: (I'm the one who killed the dragon and BSB but still lost btw). I'm not used to having monsters, chariots, cavalry or magic. I'm used to sitting tight and blasting things down.

First on the charging of spears. Epic overestimation of what mounted skellies can do, plain and simple.

@rusty. Size matters it seems. When trying to have two TGs the points just were not there.

@Brewmaster. Very understandable analogy with the water and sphinxes. I've played two of them before against Dark Reaper. Don't place them in front of a Chaos Knight bus with a BSB that conveniently has strength 7 I learned from that.

Mini coven, I don't feel convinced. I can see the merit of three lvl 1s but the cost is excessive I feel. Though two lvl 2s are the same price as a lvl 4. How many were you actually thinking of?

I'll continue cluttering Curu's thread with another army list based on the latest talk here:

Liche High Priest
Earthing Rod, Lore of Nehekhara, Wizard Level 4

Liche High Priest
Dispel Scroll, Lore of Light, Wizard Level 4 ---> 2 lvl2s (and scroll) for the same cost

Necrotect Armour of Silvered Steel, Luckstone

19x Skeleton Archers

19x Skeleton Archers

3x Skeleton Chariots

3x Skeleton Chariots

5x Skeleton Horse Archers

Khemrian Warsphinx Fiery Roar

Khemrian Warsphinx Fiery Roar

40 Tomb Gaurd Musician, Tomb Captain, Standard Bearer
Standard of the Undying Legion --> maybe better spending points elsewhere?

Casket of Souls
Hierotitan

Thanks again :D


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Now that list is something to worry about!

Regarding the level 1's vs the level 4 - It's really up to you on how you want to set it up, but personally I think the next time I field TK's, it's going to be a Level 4 Heirophant w/ Earthing Rod and 3 level 1 light mages, one of which with a dispel scroll. The advantages I see are as follows:

- 6 turns in the game, 2 magic phases per turn, so when I account for channeling, I assume each mage I bring will net me 1 bonus power dice and dispel dice at some point throughout the game. This helps me visualize the bonus I get from fielding multiple mages vs. one big one. In this case, taking multiple small ones would net you 2 extra power dice and 2 extra dispel dice at some point.
- 3 low level light mages gives you the possibility of magic missile spam if you're going up against dark elves, lizardmen or wood elves - watch their jaws drop when you manage 3 shem's burning gazes with 3 dice (totally feasible with the +D3 from the heirotitan)
- If you should roll Banishment (Slightly higher than 50% percent chance of this), you've landed a downright terrifying spell, particularly against a list like Curu's. This goes from being "meh whatever" on your level 4 to a mandatory dispel with the multiple mage setup
- Given the short range of many of the lore of light buffs, disposable level 1's let you do things like put one in the Tomb Guard without risking too much of your overall strategy.
- If you want better magic defense, you have the arcane slots to fit in something like a feedback scroll if you need it.

Then, obviously, there are downsides:

- The hellheart. Seriously, how did this item make it through playtesting?
- Lower overall casting rolls, and little chance of getting off the boosted timewarp as opposed to a great chance with the level 4.
- Overall, a slightly higher point cost

It's a close call, but the chance for S6 banishment I feel outweighs the boosted timewarp, as it gives you a solution to mobile monsters should you roll it.

Sorry for the thread hijack Curu! It's just that your list seems to have reached a level of refinement that I don't have much to add to it :P

D

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:55 am 
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@Curu
Your BSB, would there be any point fielding something similar in an army with a different composition from yours?

The reason I'm asking is the WE BSB. He can be given amber pendant (3++ vs non-magical), dragonhelm and an eagle.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:55 am 
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@rusty
if you can take him for free, I honestly see no reason not to do it. :P

On a more serious note. What is it that he does that something else in your army cannot do? You said you believed that Daemons were the hardest matchup for your WE and I believe that the BSB could be useful here if you get him into flamers. If you cannot for some reason get him into the flamers, he will die quickly with no save to speak of. What do you see him doing in other matchups? I think that one of the main strenghts with Curu's BSB is that he can take challenges that the dragon rider doesn't want to get stuck in. You might use your BSB with similar effect together with your Treeman Ancient, but he lacks the mobility that the dragon has for picking his own combats.

The point is, I think the idea has merits, but I think you need a clear role for the BSB and you need to do some playtesting to see how he works for you.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:10 pm 
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I'm still not seeing the point in TG without a King in it, even if you take lore of light.

That said I have not used TG yet with the 8th TK book, I plan to just a block of 30 in horde with a king and necrotect (keeping a nectotect alive will present it's own problems though!)

Also one of TK major issues is killing high toughness units and monsters (hell blasters, dragons, greater daemons) you have to have at least one Catapult in there, though no good against Dragon Armour, it's still good against other armies.

It's good to see you taking a Dragon though Curu, but I've not read 3 of your reports and all 3 lists look tailor made for your Dragon to play against, I'm sure you have played a lot more but i've not read them yet.

Gonna look through and see how you do against Ogres, Skaven, Empire etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:57 pm 
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First of all, I want to say that I do not mind at all that you guys are 'cluttering' the thread with TK army list talk or anything else for that matter. The discussions here hold a high level of quality and are all derived from my games so they add a lot of value when it comes to understanding my army and its performances as well. As long as people don't come here posting randoms lists etc asking for advice, I truly encourage these kinds of discussions ;)

Now, I have a few comments to address - some of which go back to before my most recent report:

@Strange - thanks for chipping in :) I agree that it adds a lot to the report when the opposing player takes the time to post his side of the story. I completely agree that a King is poor value for his money and I believe Light is the way to go. I guess my list isn't the best one to represent a run-of-the-mill opponent, but then again that's half the point I'm running it!

@Brewmaster_D - I fear that in the first game, commiting the Sphinx behind the rock is a terribly weak move: it thus becomes very easy for me to redirect it and isolate his central elements. Anyway, you have a lot of interesting feedback which I think Strange has considered before composing his most recent draft!

@rusty - Good point about support. I would be wary of creating a Deathstar though - TK does not do this very well so it's important to remember to keep the balance.

@Brewmaster_D II - I think I'm siding with the 'two sphinxes' myself, it makes a lot of sense and I believe in this case it's more important to have redundancy here than in the TG unit. Good water analogy, it's an interesting take on the game.

@Strange II - I can imagine playing anything but Dwarfs can be really challenging when you're used to sitting in a corner all game. In fact, you should give my list a try at some point ;) I believe that playing ultra-mobile teaches you a thing or two you'd never otherwise understand about Warhammer. The merit of the mini-Coven is the duplicated ranged threat: S6 Banishment and Light of Death (hard to dispel both, each turn...). It also allows you to grab another arcane item or two, should you please. I really like the list but am unsure of whether I'll have time to play it :/

@Brewmaster_D III - Agree with your assessment. Given your expertise with the Coven, could you please provide an example mini-Coven TK list which you think would be good? It would be interesting to see how you would manage the points available.

@rusty II - Long story short; yes. He does need to fulfil a role, however. Again, we're down to utility: what are your toughest matchups and how can he benefit you here? I would say Daemons are probably still among your hardest counters, in which case I consider him hard to play correctly (see how long it took my BSB to kill off Flamers vs Dark Reaper last time we played) but can really pay off (again, see the same game). Try and list the hardest matchups you have and evaluate how you think he'll perform here. The synergy with the Ancient as pointed out by Dark Reaper is a very interesting and unique trick.

@Dark Reaper - Good assessment, I agree: one problem though is the 3++ which is useless against Daemons (kind of the same reason why I believe the HE Ethereal Item is a very double-edged choice).

@Lordy - If you've found a way to master TK, please share it with us! As far as I know, the only list having anything close to success is the Khalida Archer Horde. Short of that, every TK list seems to be steamrolled by stronger books, which is unfortunate but an undeniable fact.

As for the opposition I face - I will agree that Beastmen and Tomb Kings are likely to be among the easiest armies for me to face. Fact is though that I play a wide variety of opponents, both with regards to player skill, cheese-level(lists) and power-level(books). I do make it very clear for everyone that I always play to win and I'll employ this list (I link them this thread in advance of the game). I would like to face tough armies as well but sometimes it's not that easy to always arrange super-competitive games. Given the amount of games I've played recently, some of them are bound to be less interesting.

The armies you list are my hardest opponents (though Dwarfs was not mentioned), simply due to the fact that they have so many things which easily counters my strong elements. If you take the time to read this thread, you'll see similar discussions detailed on multiple occasions. Long story short, the conclusion is that these matchups aren't necessarily as bad as they seem, and I believe the inherent advantages of not running a Lvl 4 Shadow based list or similar outweigh these bad matchups.

I will post the most recent revision soon complete with rationale and notes from my recent experiences :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:30 am 
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Draft 2 ETC 12 will be used for crusade:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 18&t=99844

Interesting. Your thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:34 pm 
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@Strange
I would drop the Banner of the undying legion. You already have plenty of places to spend your power dice. Excepting that, the list looks rather more dangerous. If possible I would try to shoehorn in a SSC, but realize you probably won't be able to, given your other "essential" choices. Trying out a Light mini-Coven could probably be done in exchange for the banner of the Undying legion?


@Curu
I gave the matter of a WE Eagle BSB some thought, and it has uses.
-Counter charger. +3-4 static (charge, BSB, side/rear). Works best if the enemy isn't steadfast. Won't take much return damage.
-Warmachine hunter. Will kill even dwarf WMs over two combat rounds.
-Killer of light units: skinks, shades, sabretusks, etc.
-Mobile rerolls for spread out treekin and treemen.
-Tieing up flaming units(very dependent on open or closed lists), or monsters/chariots with few attacks, like ogre cannons.
-Using the offensive augment from Lore of Beasts.
It's actually very useful vs DoC since it's a hard counter to flamers, horrors, heralds of tzeentch and the Keeper of Secrets. All have flaming attacks. It won't be able to cause much damage, but could force break tests. Also, tieing up flamers as opposed to them deleting one unit each shooting phase is a fair deal as fair as I'm concerned.
Downsides:
-Skaven shooting.
-Non-Tzeentch Daemons
-Dwarf runed WM without flaming rune.
-Non-flaming magic missiles.
In those cases it's probably best to stay out of range.

Still undecided whether it's worth 100 pts, but I think the idea is viable.


@ETC rules, draft 2.
Having read these properly now. Radical.
Life as a big monster is much simpler now. Fewer cannons, fewer warmachines. Death and shadow is capped at 4PD to cast, less chance that those killer spells can be forced through.
Ogres and Vampires have been limited. There is much discussion on whether Vampires have been sufficiently limited. Having some kind of strategy for countering a Black Knight bus is probably wise.
Anyhow, my treemen are very happy.


@2D6 Crusade tournament
7 VC, 7 HE, 5 Empire. Wonder how many dragon lists we'll se.

I'll make a quick prediction: Curu's army will place 5. to 15., my WE will place 10. to 20. out of 56 players. Willing to bet any beers on the outcome? :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Hey curu! Good wins against TK. TK are a little weak, but TG hordes are not easy.

First, about the lists I mentioned above: I do think lizards can be rough. Cheesed-out lizards are not easy, and while they may not have much to deal with your dragon, an oldblood will tie him up for a few rounds. most good lizard players would just try to avoid/delay/hold up your dragon with cold blooded units while he deals with the rest of the list (realize with cold blooded, they get insane courage 1/12 times, so not as unlikely as one would like, and I think one of many reasons lizards are broken, since insane courage is often one of those game-changing rolls and they do it 3x more often than any other army). Salas against your hordes or lions would be horrible (-3 to AS means lions get almost no save, and S4 means they will kill 2/3 things they hit, combined with a unit getting 2-3 templates). Also realize that 40 poisoned shots at your dragon will average 2 wounds on the big lizard after saves. As many lizard armies pack 40-60 poisoned shots/turn or more, AND they are quick to fire, skink spam could really hurt your dragon if he focuses on him (which he should, as the dragon is one of the main things he has to counter).

About TK, I find the prince/king in a unit of TG to be great for a few reasons: 1) It reduces the reliance on magic (for an army that relies on magic heavily already, its nice to try to minimize that as much as possible), 2) The king or prince is the only way in a TK army to get multiple S6+ attacks (why a sphinx is only S5 is beyond me). It also reduces the influence of crumble with a LD 10 bubble. Basically, it counters some of their main weaknesses. it is pricey, though, so its a bit of a steep tradeoff. I don't know the right answer to taking one/not taking one. I think if anyone did know the answer there, then TK would be a better army. The book as a whole is poorly designed, and everything big is about 10-15 pts overpriced at least, and a lot of the stuff doesn't do what its designed for well enough to rely on (Necrosphinx being the biggest one: they are designed to be best against monsters, but in reality they are best at character hunting, but a bunch of the units don't behave like they were designed to).

Oh, about lists to face Curu, if you are interested in testing stuff out and don't mind playing online, then feel free to PM me for a game on Universal Battle sometime! I have every book and I like using different lists to get insight on how the army functions so I do better against them with my elves. I'd be up for a game in April after my thesis is in (its due March 30th). I would be more than happy to face you with ETC ogres, VC, or lizards to give you a taste of what they are like (I could do skaven to give you a taste of a horrible skaven list with ur dragon, but I hate using them). I feel we could both learn a lot from it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:30 am 
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@rusty - the newest ETC draft doesn't hurt my list in any way while others are hit (Dwarfs, Empire and Ogres in particular). Of course this is good for me ;)

With regards to your flying BSB, I guess it boils down to whether you can find the points without sacrificing a crucial part of your army. The synergy with Beasts is very powerful, though he can definitely work well with Life, too (3W and Lifebloom).

@jwg20 - I agree that TK is a weak army. Next game will likely be against a stronger book (looks like Daemons at the moment). As for Lizardmen, I see your points but I don't know how it'll play out in a real game. I would send my flyers to kill off his dangerous units (Chameleon, Salamanders) and save my infantry. Coupled with 45 Archers this shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. I guess we'll know soon enough ;) I'm not a big fan of playing Warhammer online unfortunately, otherwise I definitely would've liked to test a game or two :)

The latest list (likely the last draft) is as follows:

Prince Saerith with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, Talisman of Loec, Star Dragon - 622
BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Shield, Dragon Armour, Great Eagle - 208
High Mage Curu Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal - 175

Characters :: 1005

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core :: 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Full Command, Skeinsliver, Gleaming Pennant - 270

Special :: 720

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare :: 150

Total :: 2500

:: Rationale ::

The characters have pretty much been playtested with a variety of configurations. In the end, I found that having magical attacks on Naenor is a necessity for flexibility. While giving extra strength magical weapons is generally ineffective for High Elves due to our great weapons, I find that S5 is crucial. I've also found that the extra point of armour save in close combat is crucial. Saerith has the best configuration for taking on the very toughest enemy models and getting the job done. Since I expect a competitive environment to field a variety of hard choices (Bloodthirster, Black Knight bus, Stone-tough Dwarf Lords) I need the flexibility from Loec. Olannon is pretty much just a streamlined choice which has impressed both me and the readers of this thread with his efficiency and effectiveness with regards to both magical defense and offense.

Core is pretty much kept to a bare minimum with the amount of Archers maximised. I would prefer to take even more but ETC won't allow it. As I don't think there's any big difference to what 10 and 20 Spearelves can accomplish I see no point in reducing the Archers to make the Spears bigger. In my opinion, 30 is the very minimum you can take Spears at and expect them to do anything save for clearing chaff. The Banner of Eternal Flames on the big Archers is because most 2+ ward-vs-fire stuff won't be their target while putting that wound on a Hell Pit or Hydra can be crucial.

Special sees my Lions maximised while squeezing in the toys I consider crucial. I really would've preferred to see them 30 strong as I really miss the last 4 in surprisingly many situations, but 26 will have to do. The Swordmasters are simply superior to any other special choice in this army: with the Dragon and Lions it's hard to focus them and their damage output is insane. I consider the Skeinsliver a mandatory item with this list and the Gleaming Pennant allows me to play them somewhat less dependent on Naenor.

Rare is pretty easy - Eagles are our best friends. While I have tried playing with 2, I consider 3 a vast improvement. I rarely feel the need for a 4th, besides I wouldn't know where to find the points.

So there it is - the likely last draft of the list prior to the Crusade Tournament. As many of you know this is a result I've landed on after many hours of analysis and playtesting and I really think it fits my playstyle.

Comments and questions are, as always, very welcome ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:38 am 
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I think the list is very elegant and powerful. Well done!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Quote:
The Swordmasters are simply superior to any other special choice in this army: with the Dragon and Lions it's hard to focus them and their damage output is insane.


Quoted for truth here. They add high volume, high quality attacks. The more I think about it, the more I agree that this switch is pure gold. You've got the target saturation in your mobile elements, so I really see these guys paying dividends in a list that is so character heavy. Essentially their high volume of attacks helps to make up for the lack of bodies on the field, if that makes any sense.

Here's hoping that your tournament goes better than mine did!

Is fully painted a requirement? Looking forward to seeing the finished product on the hobby end of things too.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:03 pm 
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I've been really busy lately with school and work! It's been a lot of fun but unfortunately not too much time for Warhammer. In one way, I believe I could've used a bit more playtesting before Crusade, in another I think it's ok to just relax and let the impressions and analysis just sink in.

@Nicene - thanks! Looking back at the list now, I kind of agree that it looks elegant ;)

@Brewmaster_D - I think the clue to Swordmasters in this list is exactly that: target saturation. While I've only had a few games with them, I have already discovered that they are absolutely deadly when they get into combat relatively unharmed.

Fully painted is a requirement. I have a LOT of work to do during Easter. I might have to take a shortcut or two, will have to see how much time it'll take (trust me - there really are quite a few things left to do...).

Strange's evolving TK list played against another High Elf player recently and he absolutely massacred him. He went for the dual-Sphinx, single-TG approach and it allowed him to tie up what he needed to do while killing off the rest. Also, the combination of Light and Nehekhara buffs proved to be impossible to defend against.

Tomorrow I have a practice game against either Rusty or Dark Reaper. I don't know who I'll face yet but it'll most likely be an Elf list (WE or DE, respectively).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:03 pm 
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I have a question. I'm building a Star Dragon list, but I'm not sure what to do with the BSB.

I don't have another eagle model to mount him (I have two in the list) so I can either leave him on foot or mount him and put him a unit of Silver Helms.

Star Dragon Lord is 622 points
Lv 2 w /AC
Core is 30 Spearmen and 3 units of 10 Archers.
2 Eagles.

I was thinking either

a) foot bsb with a unit of white lions, and two smaller Swordmasters.
b) Mounted BSB with a unit of 9 Silverhelms rest of army can be a mix of White Lions/Swordmasters/Silver Helms/DP's.

If he is mounted he as a better chance of stay close to the Dragon, but then the rest of the army is without the BSB cover.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I think any good Tomb King list should be based around 2 sphinx, 2 SSC, CoS, and 6-8 levels of casters. Add in a few flankers (3 Chariots/NK) and a few redirectors (Horseman/Carrion) and you have the points left over to build a hammer or two.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:45 am 
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If you want to have your BSB on a horse I would put him with Dragon Princes rather than Silver Helms: I find that Silver Helms are only really better when there are at least 2 characters in the unit - having a single character in a unit of Dragon Princes doesn't really impact their output that much.

On a horse the BSB will compliment the overall hitting power a lot more, whereas your rear elements can often find themselves outside of his bubble. Whether you consider this tradeoff as overall positive or negative depends on your playstyle and preference. If you have him on foot however I would probably field him with the Spears.

I had a game against Rusty's ETC Wood Elves recently. I will get a battle report up soon, it should be an interesting read :)

In the meantime, I've decided to start working on an overall Star Dragon tactica type of thread / post. Because of that, I would like to ask you what kind of questions you have about choosing the army elements and playing the Star Dragon. Input is vital here as I want to address what people do not understand / want to have better explained primarily. So - what would you like me to elaborate about with regards to playing with a Star Dragon? ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
So - what would you like me to elaborate about with regards to playing with a Star Dragon? ;)


How to kill the damn chicken!

Or at the very least, how to neutralize it.

Regards, frustrated footslogger.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Well played Sir
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7798
Location: Queensland, Australia
An ETC practice match, Asur vs. Asrai, sounds awesome!

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


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