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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
So basically what I want to do is block off his bus, fire on the Terrorgheist and engage his Lord's bunker as soon as possible with Saerith and maybe Naenor (he has no champion in the Ghouls though!)

You have an absolute range advantage, make use of it. Although you probably want the smallest archers with Olannon somewhat central, so they have the option of moving into 24" range of something useful on top of turn 1.

Top priority is killing the Terrorgheist. That scream is dangerous. I kinda think you hold back until you can do that. Maybe even deploy your combat units off the 12" line to ensure nothing can fly past your charge arcs if he goes first. How big a base is that thing played on? How easily can its rear end get past your front arc line?

In some ways the Black Coach is the second priority, because once it goes flying and ethereal it can pin your dragon forever. But if you can get the dragon into the Vampire Lord bunker or the knight bus before ethereal happens, the coach no longer matters.

As I look at this now, I'm less sure about avoiding his knight bus. Ram the Star Dragon into it and you kill at least one character a turn, and more if he fails to challenge. As long as you can block ghouls from jumping in to support with +5 CR (charge, flank, 3 ranks), that gets a lot of VPs.

If you try to kill his Lord with White Lions, you may very easily lose. They do not do that much damage to him, while he kills a half dozen of them a round. Unless he is already wounded, or your numbers are getting low, I think White Lions are better off whacking ghouls in massive numbers and trying to pop the Lord on combat resolution.

Things to remember:
* Fleeing charges against these older VC is largely pointless, because of Van Hel's spam.
* The Master of the Black Arts dice can only be used by the Vampire Lord. You could even urge him to put different color dice in his pile at the beginning of the magic phase for this. Don't let him throw everything into the Book of Arkhan in a low winds phase!
* Do not issue a challenge when in combat with his lord! He'll decline!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:23 pm 
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The best weapon you have in this game, I think, is going to be drain magic. It'll cut into his phase tremendously. Secondary would be Phoenix Flames (pop on a ghoul unit, and force him to dispel it on his phase). Other than that, I agree range will be your friend, and Terrorgeist and Coach are the major threats.

Do you think he'll put the lord in the ghouls? To me that looks like a full bus list, with all of the vampires with the knights. Flames of the Phoenix one of the ghoul units, and have Naenor and Saerith take out the other, while the eagles delay the bus, and archers take out the terrorgeist.

You've got the eagles to delay that bus long enough to keep him busy, and he lacks the chaffe removal system to deal with them effectively (probably around turn 4?) Hopefully you can vauls at least 2 items by then to even the odds, and the combined assault will bring them down.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:19 pm 
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According to my experiences with big ghoul blocks, poisoned attacks can make a very swift and bitter end to most plans of engaging them with dragons.
Together with ASF granted by the corpse cart, this is something I myself would give a second thought....

I cannot say too much about this list as it is so much more different than any vamp I have recently played (no zombis, no mortis). I am not sure if you should allocate fire into the gheist first turn, because there is a good chance that he will be healed back to full if he stays in heal range for the first (and second) turn.

What a pitty that he does not have zombis, getting two ranks of swordmasters in BTB contact with a horde of zombis is just so feaking mayhem...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Paricidas wrote:
According to my experiences with big ghoul blocks, poisoned attacks can make a very swift and bitter end to most plans of engaging them with dragons.


Outwardly, I agree, it does look like a counter. However, when you work it out with the Dragon's 3+ armour save (the prince is for all intents and purposes immune to the ghouls), those ghouls are going to have to do 21 wounds to take it down. I don't even want to work out how many hits they'd need even with poison, but given the frontage the dragon provides, it's for sure going to be multiple rounds of combat. Worth the risk in my opinion, when the reward is his entire army potentially crumbling.

Just my 10 cents though. It's still a gamble, but sometimes going all in is called for (I'm remembering the Warriors of Chaos game here, and how it payed off then)

D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Just my 10 cents though. It's still a gamble, but sometimes going all in is called for (I'm remembering the Warriors of Chaos game here, and how it payed off then)


Yeah, I remember that a bit too well myself. I think I will have to come down and watch your game against VC tomorrow Curu. On paper, you have a very good chance to win this, but remember (I am sure you do) to watch out for Vanhel's. It is absurdely good on the Knight Bus. On the other hand, he only has ws3 on his knights and will only hit your dragon on 5+. I also think your WLs are going to be very good in this matchup as long as you remember to dispel Curse of Years.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:57 am 
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@Brewmaster_D - The Lord without a ward save is indeed interesting! He should be fairly easy to kill with Saerith. If he sparkles then surely I cannot lose! I probably should've had a female character in that case though...

@dabber - good point about 24". Spell selection prior to the game will likely impact my deployment somewhat. I'm guessing that both Flames and Vaul's are fairly optimal spells here? The Terrorgheist is huge - 100x150mm base - so it should be possible to deny it any good landing zones. Black Coach - point taken. I also agree with your Dragon-vs-bus analysis, though I must beware of Vanhels opportunities. Lord vs Lions is also something to be careful about - if this happens I think you're right about whacking the Ghouls.

@Baeronvonbleat - Drain will indeed be interesting here. The Lord will very likely go with the ghouls because he's on foot.

@Paricidas - point taken about poison. Will need to consider a lot of things, even if I go for his Lord. Also, remember that he plays the old VC book and I play my old (i.e. Swordmaster-free list) list due to league restrictions :)

@Dark Reaper - would be cool to meet up with you before the game and discuss final analysis. WS3 Knights will be very important to remember when performing a risk assessment with regards to a potential Star Dragon charge.

I really want to win this game and just bag the division win, so I think I'm going to read the old VC book thoroughly one last time and make a custom copy of his roster with attached notes ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:59 pm 
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The last game of the league sees me face off against the old Vampire Counts book. This is likely my very last game against this book, but regardless I spent a lot of time going through various details and my opponent's army list prior to the game. My score before this final game in my division was 4-0. My opponent had a score of 2-1, but his last game is against Dwarfs so if he won both, he'd beat me as well (ties are decided by the winner of a matchup). Anyways, without further ado

:: Elements of Power ::

The lists -

:: High Elves ::

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2498

:: Vampire Counts ::

Vampire Lord (1#, 455 pts)
1 Vampire Lord, 255 pts , Level 3
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 The Flayed Hauberk
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dawnstone
1 Master of the Black Arts
1 Red Fury

Vampire (1#, 195 pts)
1 Vampire
1 The Balefire Spike
1 Book of Arkhan
1 Dread Knight
1 Ghoulkin

Vampire (1#, 225 pts)
1 Vampire (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Dread Knight
1 The Flag of Blood Keep

Vampire (1#, 200 pts)
1 Vampire
1 Blood Drinker
1 Dragonhelm
1 Dread Knight
1 Beguile

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Corpse Cart (1#, 75 pts)
1 Corpse Cart

Black Knights (8#, 283 pts)
8 Black Knights, 248 pts , Barding + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Royal Standard of Strigos

Black Coach (1#, 200 pts)
1 Black Coach

Terrorgheist (1#, 225 pts)
1 Terrorgheist

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got Flames, Courage and swapped the latter for Shield. He got:
Lord - 2, 5, 6
BSB - 3
Blood Drinker Vamp - 0
Last Vamp - 4

Thorough pre-game analysis led me to believe that I could get a huge advantage during deployment due to his lack of non-commiting drops. My goal was to get a refused flank-ish situation which would allow me to really concentrate my powerful elements into one of his vital ones (i.e. either the Lord's bunker of the cavalry bus).

To this end, I think deployment went very well. The huge combined frontage of the Ghouls would surely result in them blocking each-other as they wheeled in towards the action. I was happy with the deployment phase.
Image

Skeinsliver gave me first turn, which I opted to take: I wanted to put pressure on that knight bus ASAP so I gave up a turn of shooting to get the Lions and Dragon Princes where I wanted them.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Flyers move up on my Eastern flank, taking care to stay 29" away from the Terrorgheist. The Lions move up hard centrally while the Dragon Princes move up with my flyers. The Eagles move to central positions, ready to be useful later on. Olannon moves to within 24" with his small bunker.

Magic is 6v5 but the Coach eats 2D6. As such, he dispels both Shield (on Lions) and Drain.

Shooting does nothing.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 1 ::

Knights move up, wheeling towards the Dragon Princes. They can't get within 8" though, so I'm pretty sure this move doesn't worry me. The centre move up but already the tight space means he's having some issues. His Lord is outside of Vanhels range for the bus, which suits me just fine as the only crucial spell I have to stop is the bound vanhels (although he can't reach my Princes regardless, he will get out of Lions' LoS).

Magic is 9v7. Some poor rolls on his part and good prioritization on my part sees the only effect being Curse of Years on White Lions, which kill a couple.

The Terrorgheist screams at an Eagle, but low rolls see the Eagle survive with 1W.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I declare a triple-charge on his Bus: Saerith and Princes to the front, Lions in the flank. They all make their charges (fairly easy rolls, though I have failed easier ones before!). The 1W Eagle moves to delay his Lord's bunker while the other 2 re-position. Naenor moves to the flank, placing himself 29" away from the Terrorgheist (after a potential pivot) just to be safe.

Magic is fairly low and I simply dispel Curse of Years.

Shooting puts 3W on the Terrorgheist, much to me relief!

The combat sees Saerith declare Loec - I don't want that Blood Drinker around! I proceed to score 4 wounds, of which he saves ALL 4 on a 5+. Due to Loec, the re-roll sees him fail 2, killing him. The 9 Lions who got to attack and the Dragon Princes combine to wipe out the 8 Knights, killing off the unit. After the Vampires and Faeria had struck, there was 1 Vampire left on 1W, and I won combat by something like 10 so he crumbled. Nearly 1000 victory points to me! I reform to face the centre.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 2 ::

Terrorgheist moves towards Saerith. The rest move up, the blocking Eagle is charged.

Magic is really low (snake eyes) and the result sees the cart cast an ASF bubble (I dispelled the MotBA attempt, can't remember what he cast though).

Shooting sees the wounded Terrorgheist target my Dragon Princes and it just manages to wipe them out!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I set up my units for some Turn 4 action, ignoring the Terrorgheist.

Magic is 4v2 and I cast Flames on all dice, which he scrolls.

Shooting sees me kill the Terrorgheist AND put 2W on the Black Coach! Some good rolls on my part, indeed (or rather, poor on his part as he failed his saves like a champ).

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 3 ::

He again charges a blocking Eagle while the rest move up.

Magic is 5v4 but he fails to cast with the Lord and I dispel the Corpse Cart.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

So, let me just say it now... This is possibly my worst turn of Warhammer ever played. Let's see what happened:

I have 20 Lions left and they can charge 40 Ghouls. Due to little room, I cannot fit more than 1 flyer alongside them. Figuring I don't want to risk charging the Lions + Saerith and lose them vs his Lord and the Ghouls, I start looking for alternative approaches (for some reason, I thought they were still ASF due to the cart but reading through the notes I'm certain that I dispelled everything in his last magic phase).

The result? I charge the Dragon and the Archers into the Black Coach. It has 2W left and is only at level 3 so I figured I could kill it and be in a sweet position for T5. I was sure the Coach got Ethereal on level 6...

Magic - Winds aren't too high so I'm not too worried. Until the Coach eats 2D6 and my opponent gladly reveals that Ethereal is level 5, while FLYING is level 6. Oh my. As 2D6 are eaten, he dispel my Shield attempt easily.

Shooting does very little, and we go to combat. I'm hoping for a small miracle due to the fact that I have a +3 static combat resolution. Naturally, this doesn't happen and his coach wins combat by 1. I pass both Break tests.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 4 ::

His Ghouls charge the blocking Eagle and the rear of my 'helpful' (read: free combat resolution) Archers.

Magic sees ASF go up again.

Combat - the Ghouls murder my Archers and Saerith fails his break test and is run down by the Coach, which pursues into the Lions. Points-wise, we're almost even now...

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I have to keep the Lions alive, it is without a doubt the only way I can win this game. For this reason, I need the Coach to survive one more round of combat (it's currently blocking the Ghouls), enabling me to place Lions in the Tower in my T6 to give them the best chance possible of surviving the game. I also fly Naenor to his rear, giving him some potentially confusing choices and enabling me a couple of sweet moves (combat resolution is so insanely important against Vampire Counts): if nothing else I could charge his Corpse Cart for a few Victory Points.

Magic is 5v5 after the coach is done. I cast it all at Flames on his Bunker but he dispel with 2 6's.

Shooting kills a few Ghouls.

The all-important combat phase sees his Coach survive! The Lions are down to 20, the Coach is on 1W.

Image

:: Vampire Counts Turn 5 ::

As he's blocked off by the Coach, he simply moves the Ghouls a little closer. The other Ghouls go for my Archers, lining up for a last turn charge.

Magic is 6v4 and he heals the Coach multiple times with Invocation, however in doing so he also miscasts - the ensuing explosion kills 10 Ghouls and wounds his Vampire! Also, he no longer has ASF...

Combat sees the Coach (now without hatred re-rolls) roll horribly and lose by enough to crumble to nothing. Perfect!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

30 Ghouls and a Vampire Lord against 20 White Lions and Naenor rear-charging. This time, I do what's right and engage the Undead ruthlessly.

Magic is 7v5 and I throw 6D6 at Shield of Saphery. I get IF and the ensuing miscast simply wounds Olannon.

Shooting kills off a few more Ghouls, though it doesn't matter at this point.

The all-important combat sees my Guardian challenge out his Lord. I fail my fear test but Naenor's re-roll sees me pass it (phew!) on my second attempt. I am killed with +2 excess wounds for none in return. The rest of the Elves + the Eagle combine to kill 21 Ghouls though (amazing rolls), leaving only 9 to hit back. Only 3 Lions die, which sees me win combat by a staggering 17 (or something like that), which crumbles both the Ghouls and the Vampire!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

We didn't both counting up due to playing W-L-D and it was a clear victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Pre-game evaluation was good, deployment was really nice, first 2 turns were perfect. Then I made a horrible mistake and almost lost the game.

The decision to charge the Black Coach was a mix of poor risk management and the assumption that Ethereal was his level 6 power. Both elements are something I'm usually good at, and I have no good explanation why I failed so badly this game. Granted, if I had killed the Coach people might've praised me for a good, daring manovre paying off. The fact is that regardless of the outcome, what I did is a really poor choice, simply because it CAN work out as badly as this and I'm ahead by so many points, there's no need to take these kinds of risks!

I discussed the situation with Dark Reaper after the game, but that was under the assumption that the Ghouls had ASF. In that case, I think the optimal play would've been as follows:

Image

Given the fact that ASF wasn't up, a charge could have worked out (with Saerith challenging the Lord - Faeria's S7 + Thunderstomp go a long way to neutralizing T5 2+ re-rollable Armour Save characters) as well. I doubt I could've done much worse than I did though.

Anyways, he made some big mistakes too (T1 bus movement being the worst, in my opinion) and in the end I was able to combine this list's real Elements of Power (flyers + Lion horde) to crush his units, despite Saerith and Faeria both dying. I think that this game primarily highlights these elements' potential - the Eagles virtually trapping his Centre forever, the combined charge T2 seeing something like 1300 points worth of Elves engage his bus and Naenor + the Lions finally killing off the Lord's bunker. Also, it shows how poor decisions can be made when one's paranoid (seriously, old VC Ghouls give me nightmares) and probably a little too confident due to being ahead.

===

:: Division Finished - Some Afterthoughts & General Musings ::

I won my 5 games straight in the league. Some have been very close, some were huge massacres and a couple were way closer (not necessarily by points) than they ever should've been. Regardless, the continuous support, list evaluation, tactics input, game analysis and wonderful advice I've gotten from the community of Ulthuan saw our beloved High Elves finally triumph. Now, there is one player left in the other division who can get a 5-0 score as well (rusty), if he wins his last 2 games (Lizardmen, Empire). If he does, there will be a tie-breaker to determine the overall winner of the league. Whatever the outcome of his final games and a possible tie-breaker, I would like to thank you all for helping me get this far.

Having played all these games, I would also like to quickly address this list's limitations: as many of you know, I'm constantly encouraging other players who field competitive lists to play harder opponents. While this can (and frequently is) be misinterpreted as wanting to see other people fail, the purpose of this is to truly discover whether we have a book that is strong enough to make us competitive. The High Elf book is generally considered to be mid-tier at best, some would say bot-tier. I believe that although we have some glaring weaknesses that prevent us from being top-tier, we have at least a couple of builds that are competitively viable.

The Dragonlord probably can work in a comped environment. I can see it being a popular pick under the current ETC draft for example. I really expect to see a lot of Star Dragons at ETC '12 if the High Elves keep their current +100 points and I also expect some of them to be really powerful. In an uncomped environment though, I can't say I have faith in this list: there are simply too many insanely powerful builds that have good answers to this kind of list's crucial elements. With that being said, I will probably take the Dragonlord to an uncomped tournament in 2012 if a good opportunity presents itself, but I do prefer to play in a comped environment (next tournament lined up is ETC) simply because I believe that in this environment, this list can go to the very top.

Some people have encouraged me to play against uncomped lists though, to truly test the Dragonlord. Most likely, I will get a fair few of these games in the near future as a local tournament (being run at the same time I'm at the aforementioned ETC tournament) is uncomped and I'm going to be fielding my list against things like Dark Reaper's most nasty DE/DoC lists to give us both a lot of practice. Stay tuned to see the results ;)

As always, C&C very welcome :)

PS - I'll keep you posted as Rusty plays his last 2 games. The Lizardmen player is really good and the Empire list has a couple of hard counters to the Daemons so I'm hoping he'll simply lose one (or both!). If he does make it however, I'll be more than ready to face his evil minions again!

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 am 
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Congratulations Olannon. I have never daubted the Dragon build since in my neck of woods that build is considered overpowered and the Star Dragon is sometimes banned from tournaments. The fact mostly comes that by now all HE players currently acive in my area are 10+ years veterans of the trade.

Cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Ghoul Combat - Mathmagician style

ASF Ghoul's against 20 white lions + Saerith (White lion champion assumed alive, and challenging the vampire lord)

Ghouls - 7 wounds (10 regular hits, 5 poisoned, after AS and the like)
Vamp Lord - 3 wounds on champion

White Lions - 10 wounds
Saerith - 2.2 wounds
Faeria - 3.3 wounds (Attacks)
Faeria - 2.5 wounds (thunderstomp)
Faeria - 4 wounds (breath)

Personally, I'd just Naenor in as well. Your champ is challenging his vampire, so there's plenty of room for free combat resolution and damage.

Naenor - 1.6 wounds
Eagle - 1.5 wounds (stomp and attacks)

TOTAL - 10 wounds for ghouls
Total - 25 wounds for High Elves

CR Totals - HE - Banner, charge, BSB, rank = 4
Ghouls 1

29 - 11 = 18 CR failure. Remaining Ghouls + Vampire Lord pop.

- Sorry for the large post, but stats say to charge the vamp lord block. I think you did a terrific job of dealing with the bus, and after that, I really didn't see any solid way for the vampire to win. The black coach is always a horrible model to fight though, especially once it hits etherial. Don't be too afraid of fighting a ghoul army though, you're heroes have the builds to really devestate these units without too much danger of being hurt.


Last edited by Baeronvonbleat on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Quite a swing there from "decided on top of 2" to "uh oh ..."

The worst thing about the charge on the coach is you didn't need to kill the coach, and the second worst is you don't seem to have really accounted for the second ghoul unit.
The archers alone have a decent shot at popping the coach, with their +3 against only 3 attacks. With an average of under 2 wounds taken, if the VC roll a little bad on hit rolls, or rolls an extra 1 to wound, you pop the coach for nothing.

On your turn 3, can you explain why you moved how you did? You expected to kill the Terrogheist, which seems reasonable, but I don't see why Naenor and Saerith ended up where they did. It seems like Naenor should have come back more towards everyone else, just to increase his re-roll range, while Saerith could have flown far north going for a flanking position.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:50 pm 
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@Giladis - thanks! According to what I hear you play a pretty hefty comp though, which makes things very different. Are Bloodthirsters allowed in your meta?

@Baeronvonbleat - the math is sound, indeed. However, there wasn't room to get both characters in and a lot of our expected kills come from high-variance sources (thunderstomp, breath fire). Granted, I would be unlikely to lose the fight, and it probably would've been better regardless. As things were, without ASF it's probably better to just engage them. With ASF though I believe the optimal move is close to the diagram I posted in the evaluation. I also think that Ghoul armies will be a thing of the past now with the new book.

@dabber - indeed, quite a swing. All due to mistakes though and I can't blame anything but my own play. You are of course right about the coach, I was just thinking it would get me a pretty good position (which, ironically, was not the case regardless) and easy victory points.

T3 movement was just me being afraid of Vanhels. I could've moved Saerith up to a central North position but I was afraid of a reform and Vanhels into the Dragon. I forgot that they didn't have a musician (which effectively limits his movement by quite a bit) but overall it was mostly due to fear of Vanhels. Naenor indeed could've gone central, which would've been better. I am really glad that I don't have to face vanhels charge spam though with the new book - it is in my opinion one of the best changes as the old spell REALLY messed up mobile armies' advantages.

===

I have started thinking about ETC-ifying the list. An initial draft looks something like this:

30 Archers, FC, Flame
14 Archers, muso
Fill with Spears to 625

26 Lions, FC, AoL, +1M banner
14 SM, Champ w/Skeinsliver

Eagles

Thoughts? The Lions are probably one of the hardest choices for me simply because I can essentially take the entire unit (30 strong) though they'd have to be completely naked. I find that for every model I remove, it feels like I'm losing something that's a very effective investment of points. With that being said, I don't really want to let anything go either!

I'm of course open for other ideas, too, but I think I've become fairly confident that this is how I prefer that this list should play after over a dozen game with minor variations to the same setup. One interesting option is going down Furion's suggested road by skipping Naenor's Eagle and get a Dragon Princes bus - I just think that (especially in ETC) this is a really poor option for my poor matchups compared to Swordmasters. Regardless, it is currently the number one alternative build should I find that Swordmasters are sub-optimal in this setup.

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Giladis - thanks! According to what I hear you play a pretty hefty comp though, which makes things very different. Are Bloodthirsters allowed in your meta?


It is.

To get a feel what it is like playing warhammer in Croatia here is our current AC in Zagreb. It creates very diverse lists and inspires people to play various armies.

Quote:
2.) Army Composition

2.1 Units:
• No unit can cost over 400 points (characters and their mounts are NOT included in this limit)
• No unit can have more than 50 models
• No army can have more than 4 warmachines
• War machines may not be doubled
• Bolt Throwers of all types are 0-2
• No army can have more than 3 ranged template weapons/attacks
o Cannons are template weapons
o One use only items do not count
• No army can have more than 50 models with ranged weapons of range 24“ or more
o characters do NOT count towards this limit, no matter what ranged weapon they have (magical,
mundane...)
o Strength 3 ranged weapons with range 24"+ count as 1 ranged weapon
o Strength 4 or more ranged weapons with range 24"+ count as 1.25 ranged weapon
• No army can have more than 15 models with scout rule
• Maximum of 4 units with fly special rule


2.2 Items:
The following common items are banned:
• Folding watchtower


2.3. Magic:
• Maximum number of power dice that can EVER be used in a single magic phase is 12
• Maximum number of additional power dice that can be generated (after channeling) is 2
o This includes any and all sources of additional dice, such as Slann Rumination power, power
familiars, banners, etc…
o Dice from spells (Dark lore or Tzeentch lore) can be used to generate third extra dice
For example, if you used 1 extra dice from an item, you can generate 2 more dice with a
spell. If you did not generate any extra power dice, you can generate 3 dice with the spell
• Maximum number of additional dispel dice that can be generated (after channeling) is 3. If the army includes a level 3 and/or 4 caster then the maximum is 2
o This includes any and all sources of additional dice
• Maximum number of items that automatically dispel is 2. If the dispel item has a secondary effect, then the maximum number is 1.
• Maximum number of dice used to cast any single spell is 4 (instead of 6). No power, ability, or anything else can ever increase this to 5 or more dice.
o This includes things like Slann Rumination power, Sacrificial Dagger, etc…


2.3 Special restrictions and exceptions:
Beasts of Chaos:
• Maximum of 6 chariot models of any type
• Replace Beastmen Ambush special rule with Ambush special rule from the rulebook

Bretonnia:
• Maximum of 1 model with Heroic Killing blow per army
• Pegasus knights 0-2

Daemons of Chaos:
• Flamers of Tzeentch 0-1
• Flamers of Tzeentch max. 5 models per unit
• All banners are considered to be Magic Items (no duplication)
• If the Herald carries a banner worth more than 50 points than it is forbidden to select any daemonic gift
• No Daemonic gift may be doubled
• Bloodthirster cannot select Immortal Fury Deamonic Gift
• Banned: Siren Song

Dark Elves:
• Repeater Crossbows count as 1.25 ranged weapon
• Maximum number of Shades is 10
• Shades' Repeater Crossbows count as 1.5 ranged weapon
• War Hydra 0-1
• Dreadlord/Master on Dark Pegasus 0-1
• Banned: Pendant of Kaeleth
• No Gift of Khaine may be doubled

Dwarfs:
• Gyrocopter count as a template war machine
• Dwarf Runes cannot be doubled on the same model/unit

Empire:
• Steam Tank has T6 and counts as a template warmachine
• Steam Tank 0-1
• Repeater Handgun counts as 2.5 ranged weapon

High Elves:
• Banned: Book of Hoeth
• Banned: Star Dragon

Lizardmen:
• Salamander hunting pack unit 0-1
• Maximum of 30 Skink Skirmishers
• Scar Veteran on Cold One 0-2
• The army may include only one of the following: Focused Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones
• Stegadons of any type 0-2 [including character mount(s)]


Ogre Kingdoms:
• Maneaters with Vanguard and/or Scout special rule count as 3 scouts, if they have Sniper special rule with either of the above mentioned rules they count as 4 scouts
• Banned: Hellheart
• Ironblaster 0-1
• Mournfang Cavalry 0-1
• Max number of Leadbelcher models in the army is 9

Orcs and Goblins:
• Maximum of 6 chariot models of any type

Skaven:
• Hellpit Abomination - loses Random Movement special rule and is treated like a normal monster with movement value of 3D6", meaning it moves, charges and flees 3D6. When charging it declares a normal charge and the defending player can choose to flee. When it moves it doesn't have to move in a straight line but like a normal monster.
• All rare choices are 0-1
• Doomrocket, Death Globe and Brass Orb count as template attacks
• Skaven Slaves do not count for the minimum 25% of core units and maximum unit size is 40.

Tomb Kings:
• Banned: Neffera's Plaques of Mighty Incantations
• Warshpinx 0-2 [including character mount(s)]
• If both Hierotitan and Casket of Souls are included in the list, you can use either Spirit Conduit or Covenant of Power, but not both. The TK player decides which bonus is used at the beginning of the magic phase (before rolling for Covenant of Power, should player choose to use it)

Vampire Counts:
• All rare choices are 0-1
• Quickblood and Red Fury may not be doubled
• Spirit Host 0-2
• Max number of ethereal units (including characters) is 4

Warriors of Chaos:
• Hellcannon, Warshrine 0-1
• Chosen Champion cannot select Favour of the Gods magic Item
• Unit of Chosen Warriors cannot select Wailing Banner
• Hellcannon and Infernal Puppet cannot be taken in the same list

Wood Elves:
• N/A

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:07 am 
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hey curu! Good win! tough match there.

Deployment: Awesome! Good refused flank to get his ghouls tripping over themselves. I love doing stuff like that to big blocks. Its something elves, with our narrow bases and small units, can really capitalize upon. You put yourself in a great position to win in the 0th turn!

But then you almost threw it away turn 4 :(. I agree with what was said about the charge on the coach. Risky, and you could have done it with ranks alone! I would say remember for future reference, but it won't matter, as in the new book, it only channels in the owner's magic phase (so no "SURPRISE! I'M ETHERAL!"). But yes, in the future, dragon + lions + BSB will wipe a unit of 40 ghouls and vamp lord.

But otherwise you played well. The quick stats of knowing you can take out the vargheist was key. Many people (myself included) would have left something to deal with it just in case, worrying about other potential snipes.

The move with lions for pts denial was key turn 6!

Well played and good win! And congrats on the league win!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:15 pm 
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@Giladis - I think I've seen that rules pack before! Interesting to see how Greater Daemons are largely unaffacted in an environment that comps war machines fairly hard. Have you had a lot of Thirsters / Keepers rampaging?

@jwg20 - I didn't know that about the Black Coach in the new book! I haven't had a chance to properly read through it yet, but I most definitely will as the upcoming tournament has a lot of attending VC players ;) I assume that when you said Vargheist you meant Terrorgheist. With -3W and all my Archers lined up, I wasn't really afraid of it anymore. I should probably, as dabber suggested, moved the flyers otherwise though. What did you mean by Lions T6 action by the way? I would assume you were talking about my go-to plan of putting them in the building, but I decided to charge instead ;)

First ETC draft of the list:

Saerith with GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec, Star Dragon - 622
BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, HoF, Talisman of Protection, Shield, Great Eagle - 212
Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon - 180

Characters - 1014

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core - 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Skeinsliver, Musician - 253

Special - 703

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare - 150

Total - 2492

I could drop the Swordmaster's musician and the Ironcurse Icon to include the Gleaming Pennant on the Swordmasters. This list will probably be tested tomorrow against Dark Reaper's first draft for a tourney he'll participate in (which is uncomped!) so it'll be quite interesting!

Thoughts on the list? Feel free to share :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Another great game! Congratulations on sweeping the league. I'll be very interested to see a game of you vs. rusty if he manages the same in his division; I have nothing but respect for his playing ability, so I'm positive it'll be a good match. He's playing his Daemons I'm assuming?

I totally agree here - the first turn vampire movement was super, super risky with regards to the bus. I'm sure he was banking on a vanhel's to get him out of range of that flank charge, but that seems like an extremely shaky proposition at best. A good player like you would identify that as one of the key threats in that magic phase and eliminate it as a possibility, which I assume you did in that turn.

It's really funny to me looking at his deployment vs. the deployment of the new Vamps book that I've seen. My hat goes off to GW for creating so much more diversity in their lists, and as such more interesting games. There's so much more to the army now than plunking down 3 blocks of troops.

I know it's been done to death already, but in reading through your report, my warhammer instincts were screaming at me to make that charge on the lord's bunker in turn 4. Killing that lord, particularly with the casualties he'd already suffered, would end the game then and there. I'm just curious if this was a close decision for you to forgo that charge?

I agree with your assessment about the list. The nature of it is going to lead to a high amount of variance when you're looking at lists capable of dealing highly mobile, high strength damage (eg. Cannons & Bolt throwers, etc). Some matches you'll roll up their artillery, and others you'll suffer heavy casualties. This is one of the side effects of having so many points in one model. Having said that, if you recognize that fact and adapt your playstyle, there's a few things you can do to help mitigate that, like creative terrain usage, so I'd say overall the list is one of the stronger ones that we can bring to the table. Particularly in a comped environment.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Quote:
@Giladis - I think I've seen that rules pack before! Interesting to see how Greater Daemons are largely unaffacted in an environment that comps war machines fairly hard. Have you had a lot of Thirsters / Keepers rampaging?


We have one Bloodthirster player, one Keeper/Unclean player, one 4xHerald player and I play with a Daemon Prince so there isn't a serious proliferation of Bloodthirsters or Keepers. They tend to die quite easily with only 5 wounds and draw to much attention early on. Most players think that only the Star Dragon and Black Dragon are worth taking as a serious combat monserous mount.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:42 am 
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Nice report!

I find it interesting that when one side of makes some huge mistake in a game, or roll very off-chance dice, the other player also tends to do the same during the same game. I've seen it before, but found it pretty funny that you both made one large mistake each. Otherwise, well played, and congratulations.

Did Ugrush(The VC player) say why he chose to move his bus into charge range of your whole army on turn one?

My daemons have a plan for dealing with Empire and Lizardmen. Whether it works out remains to be seen.. Aiming for a tie-breaker :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:09 am 
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@Brewmaster_D - Rusty is playing Daemons. I will post his list shortly. He is also going to the ETC tournament with me but he's unsure of whether to field Daemons or Wood Elves (he believes the latter is a very strong choice under the current draft, which I totally agree with). I assume there'll be some playtesting!

First turn movement makes very little sense. He was out of range for Vanhels with the Lord - meaning only the Book could do it. Now this book is a bound item so as far as I can tell it doesn't benefit from being able to cast multiple times, unlike the Lord. As such, I only have to dispel that one single spell. What I did was to simply hold on to all my dice until he spent his last ones on something else (he didn't even try casting with it). Make no mistake though, barring bad dice rolls there was no way I'd let him get that bound spell through.

Not charging the Lord - it was a pretty close decision. The deciding factor was the fact that I couldn't fit both flyers in, which was solely due to my poor movement in the preceding turn. What I probably should've done was to just challenge out his Lord with Saerith and kill him - even though Loec was gone I'm pretty confident that the combined killing power in that setup could take him out.

@Giladis - interesting, considering the abundance of Greater Daemons in other big tournaments (e.g. ETC '11). Do you consider the Daemon players as skillful as the High Elf players in your area? I see one big advantage Daemons have that we do not - the ability to take Fiends to absorb cannonball (3W and a 5+ Ward go a long way) fire.

@rusty - indeed, this is quite often the case. I think it's partially due to the fact that when a very competitive player is behind, he's that much more focused and likewise, when ahead, you're more likely to make rash decisions. Ugrush gave no reasoning as to his bus' movement, other than calling it a big mistake when the game was over. Looking forward to hearing about your last games!

Any thoughts on the revised list people?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:12 am 
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@Olannon
I will field WE for the ETC tournament. That's the army I like the most to play, and it's the also fully painted and ready to go. Doesn't hurt that comp favours WE though :twisted:
I don't think I need much playtesting, as it's the same army I played all of last year, + 100 pts. The one big decision is whether to use Beast or Life lore. I believe that with max five casting dice, and a Treeman Ancient in the list, Beast might be better. Any thoughts on the matter? Regardless, I will have to read up on some of those great casting strategy articles here on Ulthuan.

Your ETC list:
-What is HoF?
-10 spearelves looks very out of place. I understand why, and I also assume you have thought about bringing, say 25 spears and 30 archers. What were your reasoning?
-Are swordmasters usually out of range of general and BSB? I believe you need a musician here more.
-This list no longer autokills WE armies, mostly 'cause flaming is shifted to archers. Also, 26 WL might actually die to shooting, while SM will definitely die to shooting. So I'd say comp hurts you, but it hurts most other armies more. You have two very big and scary threats in your army, now one is a little less scarier.
-Your army should match well with new VC, DE and DoC. You have problems with OK, but you know that already. At least you won't face a Irongut horde.

Playtest WE/HE late march? Since it's no longer an autowin in favour of HE :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:32 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Giladis - interesting, considering the abundance of Greater Daemons in other big tournaments (e.g. ETC '11). Do you consider the Daemon players as skillful as the High Elf players in your area? I see one big advantage Daemons have that we do not - the ability to take Fiends to absorb cannonball (3W and a 5+ Ward go a long way) fire.


I would say yes and no. The main 3 HE players around are more skilled than DoC players but there are more HE players than DoC so at tournament on average DoC as a race score better than HE as a race. I don't use Fiends and the other DoC players use them as a big 5 model unit to operate on a flank and maybe an aditional 1 for diverting.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:11 pm 
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@rusty - I think WE is a good choice. Given your relative success with them last year, I believe you could very well finish no. 1 this year at an ETC event. I think Beasts is interesting, but it's hard to say as the sheer power of life (when the spells do go through) is just so huge! As far as casting strategies go, I think the magic-centered blogs are the best place to start looking.

HoF = Helm of Fortune (HE magic armour)
10 Spearelves, well the way I see it 45 Archers is a must. Since it only leaves room for 10 I'll play 10. I simply want to maximise my shots. Also, I've really gotten fond of the 30 Archers unit but I wouldn't want to have it as the only Archer unit.
Swordmasters - it's hard to say just yet, I haven't had more than a few games with them.
Agree about Lions' size and comp thoughts
OK indeed is terrible, but I think that goes for most armies. At the very least I'm not horribly vulnerable to the deathfist build as most other HE armies are.

WE/HE sounds interesting. I'm sure we'll get a match set at some point ;)

@Giladis - point taken. I guess it's a lot about the meta though. I just think that Fiends are a horribly underrated unit. If I played Daemons I would probably always take 6+1 Fiends along with a Keeper or Thirster as they're great value and synergize really well with the fast biggies.

===

I just finished my first ETC-list game against Dark Reaper playing uncomped Daemons. I will hopefully get the report up tomorrow (no time tonight), but in the meantime I'll give you something to post random musings about:
- His list was 50 Letters w/Herald, 2x6 Flamers, 2x Tzeentch Heralds w/1 scroll each, 1x Bloodthirster with Dark Insanity and Immortal Fury, 1x Fiend, 2x5 Furies. Overall, well rounded with lots of potential.
- I made a fairly beginner-ish mistake by placing Eagles at the forward line (i.e. 24" away instead of 31" away from Flamers...)
- Bloodthirster rolls 6+5 for Dark Insanity when Saerith makes the charge on him
- Swordmasters show just why people fear them so much
- Lots of interesting moves on both our parts lead to a very tactical game

Stay tuned for a report which I believe you'll find very interesting :)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:24 pm 
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First test for my newly drafted ETC list. I was facing Dark Reaper who's testing out uncomped Daemons for an upcoming tournament.

:: Rage-fuelled Khornites ::

My list:
Saerith with GW, AoC, Vambraces, Loec, Star Dragon - 622
BSB Naenor with Sword of Might, HoF, Talisman of Protection, Shield, Great Eagle - 212
Olannon with Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon - 180

Characters - 1014

30 Archers, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flames - 365
15 Archers, Musician - 170
10 Spearelves - 90

Core - 625

26 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light - 450
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Skeinsliver, Musician - 253

Special - 703

3 Great Eagles - 150

Rare - 150

Total - 2492

Daemons' list:

Bloodthirster, Dark Insanity, Immortal Fury

Tzeentch Herald, Scroll, Loremaster (Tzeentch)
Tzeentch Herald, Scroll, Loremaster (Shadow)
Khorne Herald, 3+ AS, BSB, Banner of Sundering

49 Bloodletters, Icon of +D6 first charge
5 Chaos Furies
5 Chaos Furies

6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got courage and fury (arguably the worst selection possible in this matchup) and swapped the first for Shield.

I wasn't really too worried about his list. I knew my chaff would have a hard time but I was confident I could use the terrain and combo-charges to crush his powerful elements. I didn't have a plan for his flamers, furies and fiends, other than to hopefully let them do their thing without interfering too much.

Deployment was good I think, barring a couple of noobish mistakes:

Image

Apologies, I forgot a Fiend on his East. He had it right infront of the Herald (this was the Tzeentch Herald)

We both rolled a '5' for first turn and since he finished first, we had to re-roll. On this roll, I got a '5' again but he managed to score a '6' and gladly took the initiative!


:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

He moves up aggressively and it's obvious to me that it's been too long since I've played against Flamers: deploying Eagles on the line instead of 7" behind (making it 31" to Flamers) is just a silly mistake.

Magic is 8v7. He starts off with a BS miasma on big Archers, which I dispel on 2v3 D6. He throws his other 6D6 at a Bolt of Change on Saerith which I am powerless to dispel: Faeria takes 2W and Saerith 1W.

Shooting sees his Flamers kill an Eagle each. Far from a perfect start...

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

He had placed his Furies to cover the Herald. However, as Furies are Skirmishers, they have to form into a compact unit once they're charge. As such, I charged these with Naenor and his Herald with Saerith, since the first charge would open for the second (by engaging his Western-most Fury I would force him to leave a corner-to-corner space for Saerith). They both needed a 17" charge and unfortunately Saerith failed his.

The Spears immediately moved to a speedbump-duty while the rest of my forces stayed cautious. Despite him having complete control on the Western flank, I was confident that it would be more crucial to wait him out a bit longer.

Magic was 4v3 and a decent roll of Fury on his Herald saw a scroll come out.

Shooting saw my 30 Archers roll miserably and only put 2W on the Fiend. The other 15 Archers rolled better and also scored 2W on a Fiend.

Combat saw Naenor perform very well and kill all Furies (after combat resolution), overrunning into the Herald.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

His Bloodthirster charged my Archers, who failed their terror-test and ran off the board. The Letters charged my speedbumpers and I held since he could redirect into Saerith. The rest moved up.

Magic was 8v7 and he started with a D6 SD6 thingy from his Tzeentch Herald, which only hit Naenor so I let it through. S3 meant it had no effect. He then tried a boosted Miasma on 3D6 which he failed to cast and I dispelled his last spell easily.

Shooting had no effect - cover helping me out greatly.

Combat saw my valiant Spears kill 2 Letters before they died. The Letters overran, stopping 1" away from the Lions! Naenor killed the Herald and reformed to face the centre.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Lions backed up 3" and I used the Eagle to speedbump the Letters, should they want to do anything, while Saerith and Naenor moved to their backs.

A curious situation arose here - The Swordmasters were blocked by the Fiend but due to the Letters' overrun, they couldn't properly close the door so that the Fiend would have to do it - meaning an overrun would bring them into the Letters' flank (the resulting angle of the Fiend would mean that it no longer redirected them). However, the reason I couldn't close the door was because the Letters were in my way and they were too wide because of combined movement trays (leading to a 3/4" gap in the middle of the unit). As this was a practice game, we decided to play as though the Letters were closer to the centre, thus allowing me to close the door. In a tournament setting, I probably would've insisted on playing it differently (as I likely would've broken his Letters instantly with a triple-charge from Lions + Swords + Naenor) but in this case that would be pointless. Regardless, lesson learned for Dark Reaper: watch out for potential effects of overruns etc when placing redirectors, and make sure those movement trays are properly constructed ;)

Magic was 3v3 and a really poor roll from me (combined with Sundering) meant no effect.

Shooting was another story though as I placed the flame from Faeria to touch a LOT of letters. This, combined with the Archers' shooting, produced a ridiculous 21 wounds, of which he managed to save 10 (!). Regardless, taking out 11 would be huge and I knew it.

Combat saw the Swordmasters kill the Fiend and reform to face the Letters.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 3 ::

He contemplated what to do for quite a while. In the end, he decided to charge the Thirster into the Lions, and I held. The Letters free reformed to face my Flyers.

Magic was 6v7 and this allowed me to dispel miasma (3v3) and enfeebling (3v4) for a net result of no effect! The Flamers did next to nothing thanks to cover.

Combat saw his Dark Insanity Thirster perform somewhat sub-par as he only killed 6 Lions (after thunderstomp) for 2W in return.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Naenor charged Flamers, Saerith charged Thirster.

Magic was again ineffective for me as I failed to roll high enough (three 2's and a 1 saw him easily dispel).

The Archers killed another few Letters and the huge unit was now down to a more managable size of 30.

Combat saw me declare Loec and he wisely challenged. Despite the influence of the Trickster God, Saerith only managed one wound on the Beast. In return, he rolled 11 (!!) attacks, adding the +2 for a total of 13. He decided to direct them all at Faeria... After hits, he managed 6 wounds, leaving me 6 saves of 6+ in order to save the noble creature. Knowing the odds of 6D6 IF very well, I knew I was in bad shape. As I saw the first die come up a '6' though, I held my breath but to no avail - I couldn't roll another so she died before she could do anything.

Naenor failed to deal a single wound to the Flamers as well. This was not good for me, and I knew it.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

Bloodletters turn around yet again, the rest move up towards me. Magic is 10v7 and he starts with a boosted miasma on Swordmasters on 4D6, which I let through for -1 stat reduction. He throws the rest at Enfeebling Foe which I dispel.

Combat sees Saerith fail to wound the Thirster and die in return. Naenor performs better though, putting 3W on the Flamers.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

To delay as long as possible the last Eagle blocks the Letters, forcing them to spend even more time doing useless stuff (I would imagine they were pretty tired of being played by now, however as long as there's an Eagle left I wasn't intending to stop!).

Magic is 9v6, I start off with a 4D6 Fury on the Letters (reasoning being that if I could bring them down sufficiently, I might kill them with SM) however he let it through and poor rolls resulted in only 1 casualty. Shield was then dispelled on 5v6 D6. Shooting killed another couple of 'Letters and we were down to combat.

Lions put another wound on the Thirster, bringing it down to 1W. In return, they were slaughtered down to 8 remaining. Now, if I could kill him in his turn, I could combo-charge his Letters with the remnants of the WL + SM.

Naenor won combat again but this was taking far longer than expected due to the ridiculous nature of Daemonic Instability coupled with re-rollable LD9.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 5 ::

Letters charge Eagle.

Magic is 3v3 and I breath a sigh of relief. However he manages to cast Enfeebling WITH IRRESISTIBLE FORCE! Oh my, on top of that he gets the crucal 3+ roll to make me 6+ to wound him. 2 Horrors die to the miscast.

Shooting is again in-effective (cover!).

Combat sees me challenge with the Guardian (a crucial move, he was out of contact from the start of the combat and I had deliberately saved him for a desperate situation - surely now was the time!) and the noble elf dies but preserves his 7 breathren. Naenor wins again and the Letters overrun into Swordmasters.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Movement wasn't important so straight to magic: 9v6 saw me dispel Enfeebling and cast IF Shield on Swordmasters! A few Archers died for my troubles but I didn't care - this was a crucial phase and the Archers were unlikely to go below 25% with only one turn remaining.

Combat sees my Lions fail their re-rollable LD8 test (though this is the first time!) for Fear, but they still score 2W before saves! His 6+ armour save fails to block either of them, and his 5+ ward only blocks one: finally the Daemon is dead! The Swordmasters score no less than 19 (!!) wounds on the Letters, of which he saves 8. In return, he kills 6 Swordmasters.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 6 ::

Furies move to block Lions. Flamers are finally in range of the vulnerable Archers. Magic is 7v7 and a crucial Flickering Fire kills 1 Lion -> bringing them below 25% and netting him 225 victory points! I stop his attempt at hexing the Swordmasters easily.

Shooting sees the Flamers kill a lot of Archers but I pass panic.

Combat - Swordmasters hack apart quite a few Letters for a few losses in return. Both units are now very weakened. Naenor finally kills off the Flamers, LD9 and the re-roll being long gone. I reform to face Horrors.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

Naenor charges the Horrors and the Lions charge the Furies. The Archers wheel to catch LoS to the Fiend.

Magic is scrolled and we go to shooting: the remaining Archers manage to get that last wound off the Fiend!

Combat - Swordmasters bring the Letters down to 4 models remaining but are cut down to 1 model themselves - the Bladelord standing proud. I fail my break test but he fails to run me down! Naenor kills the Herald and an insane roll of 12 for his Break Test brings the Horrors down to 2 models - netting me another 60 victory points! The Lions easily kill the Furies.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

Due to me getting used to ETC we played a 20-0 score game and I was curious to see what the score would be. I was pretty confident that I was ahead after the last turn in which I killed the Herald of Tzeentch and Furies AND brought the Letters AND Horrors beneath 25%. Dark Reaper guesstimated a 12-8 victory to me, which proved to be accurate: I was ahead by 351 victory points - meaning a 12-8 victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

A very interesting game with lots of good moves, a few mistakes and some crucial dice rolls! I think we both learned a lot. I'm sure that given the complexity of the various fights, you have a lot of thoughts as well which I'm hoping you'll share. Here are my main evaluation points:
- One big block of Bloodletters is easily distracted and played around with when I have a mobile list. Even losing 2 Eagles before I could move I pretty much had them do what I wanted to throughout the game. His lack of a third solid combat unit meant I could totally dominate this aspect of the game.
- Placing Eagles anything less than 31" away from Flamers is pure stupidity. Do not try again
- 2 Swiftstride charges of 17" + is quite a risk. Look for better opportunities when it's not crucial to get them through. One charge of 17" + is acceptable most of the time, 2 is pushing it unless you're in a hard spot.
- Saving the Champion for a challenge when needed can be crucial against big beasts
- 10 Spears are somewhat useful: they can be a sacrifical drop and be both a speedbump and mage-bunker. I doubt I'll increase their size

A special note should go to Naenor. In this game, he performed spectactularly:
- killed Furies
- killed Herald of Tzeentch
- made Lions pass Terror test vs Bloodthirster charge
- killed Flamers
- made Lions pass 2x Fear tests vs Bloodthirster
- killed Herald of Tzeentch
- brought Horrors to beneath 25% of starting strength

Hope you enjoyed the report ;)

EDIT: Dark Reaper's looking for input as well. This is only his third game using Daemons and he tried a couple of things he knew was experimental, in particular the dual-Heralds, the Dark Insanity and the one big block of Bloodletters.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Good game!

I liked the early game maneuvering, you took control of the eastern flank very quickly, and that helped give you the control you needed.

I'm not sure I agree with your turn 3 charges though. At that point you had a very easy combo charge on the letters. Saerith and Naenor in the front, swordmasters in the flank, and an eagle in the rear (charging the same corner the swordmasters were touching). The swordmasters only face 4-6 attacks back (you should wipe a rank with the ASF attacks), and Faeria's not facing a great many attacks, so she'll get her attacks and thunderstomp in. Even the lone eagle should survive (maximum 4 attacks on her, if not all of the letters attack the swordmasters.) I'm assuming there's a champion which might allow Naenor to challenge, otherwise he could survive on his own skill.

You'd nearly wipe the unit on the charge, with a few left over for clean up on his phase, giving you clean charges on your turn 4. And the lions are really suitable for surviving and beating the blood letter on their own as it is. The only unit I'd really want to see added to that combat would be the swordmasters (lone heroes are succeptable to challenges as you saw). The swing would be 725 points for the letters, and you'd save Saerith (though you may lose Naenor).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:15 pm 
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In my turn 3, the Bloodletters had 37 (!) models remaining in the unit, if you count the Herald. Now, what I could've done would be to place Saerith in base contact with his Herald to hopefully kill him - losing the 'Letters their hatred. However, Naenor is almost always going to die and Saerith stands a good shot at dying himself, considering he'll get 12 attacks against each of them. With 37 models they're also strong enough to weather one, maybe 2 rounds of combat without too horrible casualties (remember 5+ ward...).

With that being said, the Bloodthirster combat was just insane. He is NOT supposed to be able to do that against a rear-Dragon charge with only 3W remaining. With only 1 less hit, my chances of survival would increase drastically, in which case he'll die (we rolled the dice just to see 'what if' - anyways statistically he isn't supposed to live through this).

I think in this case, charging the Letters is way more risky than charging the Thirster, especially considering their potential of killing my characters. I was confident that slowly reducing them and saving the Eagle would allow for a devastating combo-charge later on. Had I killed the Thirster, this would've happened for sure, in which case he would be facing WL + SM + Saerith at the same time (the remaining Eagle could easily have ensured this matchup, given his position and facing).

Perhaps I'm (again) a little paranoid. 37 Bloodletters is just such a strong unit: I'd have to kill off 15 with the Elves' to seriously reduce his hitting power against me and, since I'd likely have to spend Saerith's attacks on killing the Herald this would've been very unlikely. 14 Swordmasters are indeed powerful, especially in the flank, but I don't know if they're that powerful.

What do the rest of you think about this?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Just coming back from a long break I am in no position to give comments, all I can say is that I really enjoy your rapports :) .

One thing I am a little curious about though:, the placement of Curu within the archer unit itself where he apears to be placed to the right within the unit rather than the left (or center), that would have given him better overall range to influence to course of battle ?


Last edited by Overg on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Unless ETC changes this, the Daemon Loremaster power cannot be applied to the Lore of Tzeentch. The wording in the book is about the 8 lores, and the Daemon FAQ confirms this.

I don't understand the reasoning behind your turn 1 double charge attempt. Firstly, skirmishers always form up around the center of the front rank, not the model charged. Dumb, but that is what the rules say. This can make some absurd situations where the charge is in range before the form up but fails because of the form up. Or is ETC ambitious enough to change that?

Ignoring that, why charge the dragon in when you can overrun Naenor into the BSB, as actually happened? Furies with no general and BSB in range are the only thing you can expect to pop in one round. If you do a single wound (with 5 attacks plus stomp), they need insane courage or they die.

When the Bloodthirster terror'd your little archers off the table, did he attempt to redirect anywhere? It seems like adding him to the spear slaughter would be useful, as it would force the bloodletters further west. Or just taking a shot at terror-ing the White Lions off.

I think you were completely right not to charge the bloodletters on turn 3. The expected 5+ kills from the archers matter, and taking out the bloodthirster would probably be a win.


I have seen the one huge block of bloodletters be very very effective. It requires keeping the Flamers, Fiends and Furies (perhaps more furies) close with it at all times, so they can clear out stuff. I have seen a block of 60-70, with no greater daemon and no other strong combat unit, be highly effective.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Good game!

@Curu
Did pretty good. I think you did right in attritting Bloodletters, instead of charging early on. Worst case: characters are KBed, BL reform to face SM and kill them next turn.
Losing two eagles turn one probably cost you a lot later on.

@Dark Reaper
This might hurt a bit ;)

Deployment-wise I wonder if a defensive reactive strategy would have been wiser. Flamers and magic missiles could force the elves onto you. That would also remove some of the movement advantage Curu had. It would also reduce the deployment disadvantage you got here. Finally, you could use flamers as a reactive shooting shield. With T4 and skirmish they can stand in front of the rest of your army. And if the archers move into range, the flamers can move up and shoot back.
@Curu, what would you do if the Daemons deployed castle-like in the centre?

Games-wise I'm not really sure what you could have done differently, since you played Curu's game and came at him screaming.

About your army list, I'm not so sure. All the pieces look dangerous, they're daemons after all. However, do they fit together in an overall strategy?

Dark Insanity: compared to scroll, 3+ AS, Killing blow. Unreliable, expensive and doesn't do anything extra. Scary though.

Banner of Sundering. How much does this help you, compared to not having it?

Magic. Shadow lore doesn't synergize with the army. Mindrazor is usually the best spell in the deck, but you don't have a unit that can use it effectively. Same with withering, you already have lots of high-strength attacks. Very nice with flamers, off course. Since you have Loremaster, and limited number of dice I would not bother with two heralds. Instead, I would suggest one loremaster with either light, life or beast. Light works perfectly with bloodletters, and also has great shooting defense, and magic missiles. Life heals your greater daemon and any large fiend units. Beasts can do many cheap tricks and is always useful.

Bloodletters. Always good. You might consider two large (30-40) instead of one huge unit. I see others have good experience with one unit, but it leaves you vulnerable to redirectors.

EDIT: Dabber makes a good case: "I have seen the one huge block of bloodletters be very very effective. It requires keeping the Flamers, Fiends and Furies (perhaps more furies) close with it at all times, so they can clear out stuff".


Furies and fiends. Necessary to get the right combats. but do you need all four? Again, you only have two units that can kill things, and they can't be everywhere.




Flamers. They are exceptional, but do they work with the army? In this game, they failed to clear the way for your bloodletters. I would consider a large Fiend unit instead of one flamer unit. Flamers can be ignored in a "grin and bear it" way, but 6 fiends marching 20" up a flank warrants attention. If not taken care of, they will either kill something vulnerable (mage bunker), or flank an important ongoing combat.


Hope that didn't come across as too harsh, as you still managed a draw :).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Couple things pop in to my mind reading this report.

In your turn 1, you move your speedbump unit of spears up slightly, and angle them to direct the Bloodletters into your lions. I understand your reasoning here - letters kill the spears, suffer a few casualties, then overrun into the lions whereupon in the next turn the swordmasters join the fray in the flank. Archers put their shots on the fiend to clear it out, preventing a redirect. However, what happened in this case is that the archers failed to kill the fiend during the shooting phase, rolling lower than average. This created what could have been a potentially game losing situation; his fiend then moved up to block the charge attempt on the SM, leaving the lions isolated for a full turn. Had those letters made the charge all the way into the lions, that could have been disastrous for you (combat works out to about 13 wounds for you vs 19 for him without his character factored in... yeesh). Second round of combat should have finished the lions off.

What I'm getting at here is a point that I preach fairly often: Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Your plan, although a very good one and very plausible, required a chain of events: 1. Kill the fiend with shooting/magic 2. Bloodletters overrun into the lions 3. Swordmasters get the flank charge. Interrupt the plan at any point in that sequence, however, and you're left in a rather compromising situation.

I'm thinking in this situation, if you wanted to go for that plan, that Saerith should have charged that fiend in order to have a 100% chance at elminating it as a redirecting threat. This also gives you a reform option with the prince to potentially add him into the mix vs. the letters on the flank.

So the option you picked turn 1 was:

- Go for the high gain option of charging both characters in to take out the furies/herald combo
- Leave shooting and magic to deal with the fiend
- Set up the spears to direct an overrun into your lions and set up the swordmasters to flank charge

What I might have done to account for variance is:

- Charge Naenor into the furies
- Charge Saerith into the Fiend
- Set up the trap, per above
- Put a round of shooting into the herald, to hit modifiers be damned.

This way the critical plan - forcing the bloodletters into a losing combat - is cemented in, and the high yield but lower importance objective of taking the herald is left up to the non-critical elements.

It'll still be a bloodbath no matter how you cut it though. Ideally that block of letters gets whittled down before you engage it, so I'd even say simply redirecting it that turn in order to get a round of shooting on it before engaging is an option.

Hope that makes sense!

D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:37 pm 
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@ Curu - For an example of why bloodletters are not as dangerous as we would assume, take your turn 5's combats.

5 - Swordmasters at full strength did 19 wounds, but he saves 8. Your wounds were on par exactly with the average damage output, his saves were a bit high (you should be getting 12-13 wounds through). He did 6 wounds back (With full attacks and support ranks). He's actually got 8 letters in contact, plus the supporting ranks. If he only had 3 letters in contact, he'd do maybe 1-2 wounds, which is a loss of 2 attacks for the swordmasters.

Math for Naenor - 9 attacks from bloodletters, 5 hit, 2 wound, .75 are KB, rest are likely saved anyway. This one's a bit of a gamble, but you have a ward save.

Saerith - This is a bit of a toss up. I'd assume he'd focus on Saerith, and Faeria's going to survive regardless. Same numbers, except Saerith has a better ward save.

Assume you lose a character to KB, he's got herald, banner, a rank, and 5 wounds to your 10 from Swordmasters, charge, flank, rear (if you charge the eagle in, should save a swordmaster if it contacts the right flank), +6 wounds (average wounds caused by two eagles, dragon, and 2 heroes is about 8 unsaved total, so playing conservative here).

So 16 blood letters dead in combat

Daemons - 8 CR
HE - 22 CR.

To me, there are two risk factors: The threat of losing Saerith, and the threat of losing Naenor. Faeria will survive regardless, and if you break the Daemons, there's no threat left on the board.

However, everyone else feels the letters are too dangerous, so maybe the math isn't correct?


@ Dark Reaper -

There were a few clear mistakes. The western furies in my opinion should keep up with the blood letters (moving up on their western flank, to prevent a cross charge). These are your diverting unit, use em to keep eagles at bay, or to block the combo charges, and give you some movement control. You can force some angled charges and really leave the high elf units out to dry.

The eastern furies should have been angled to prevent the over-run into the Herald. It was a solid cover, but it didn't serve it's purpose.

I would have also used the Eastern fiend to threaten his archer unit. Turn 3 where you block the swordmasters (a good move to prevent the combo charge, but this could have been done by the western furies) the Fiend could move to threaten the flank of the archer unit. They have to either react (saving your letters from being shot), or get flank charged (allowing you to attack the vulnerable mage! Fiends are terrific in this regard). With charge, stomp and attacks, you should actually beat his 2 static CR easily, pinning them in place rather well.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Thanks for the input guys. It is good to see that we all have experienced the same game. There were a few things I was wondering about with regards to the list. Some things worked ok, while others did not work at all.

@rusty: I wanted to try Dark Insanity, but I will probably not use it again. (even though it was amazing rolling 13 attacks on the dragon :D) The BT will be carrying a scroll from now on, and I will only have a single Herald on Light. I will probably have to be a little more careful with him though. I also need a few more combat threats and I think having a bigger unit of Fiends would help me tremendously.

Anyways, the game was a blast, and even though I made a couple of really big mistakes I felt that I played a decent game and that I am still improving for each game. Just watch out Olannon, I will get you one day! :twisted:

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