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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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@rusty - that's a great idea! I'll see what I can do for future reports!

@Tiralya - indeed High Elves and Dark Elves are fairly similar and as such the synergies in place also work with the other fraction when combined. The Spider was a mammoth model - we had to use quite a few proxies ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Nice battle and a great report Curu.

However as a diehard High Elf player (excusing my recent Dark Elf dallaince)

I can't believe you allied with our Dark Kin what were you thinking???


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:04 pm 
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i used to play big battles like these now and then and they are indeed great fun, but totally different from a normal 1v1 game imo. manouvering is difficult with such a crammed table, and deployment + force concentration are hugely important. the main downside to such games is that they are often decided when one flank is crushed by a combination of strong elements while the opposing team fales to redeploy/ crush the other flank in time. this often makes suchs games kind of one dimensional from turn 3 or so. seems not really to be the case in your game though with each team dominating one flank.

gratz on the win and thanks for the report :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:31 pm 
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The game does indeed look a bit cramped. That might have worked in the horde armies disfavour in this game. Curu, what do you think?

I'll make my 4"x8" table available for next time :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Is it just me, or does Saerith look surprisingly at home fighting next to our dark brethren. A sign of your true color Curu?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:28 am 
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Great game! I know I'll feel weird for writing this, but High Elves and Dark Elves demonstrate some pretty good synergy when working together. Your fighty units just utterly dominated the right flank, even when Savage Orc Big Uns came to play. Great job!

Out of curiosity, what model did you use for your dragon? It doesn't look like the standard GW one.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:47 pm 
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@Eldria - well the only way we could even remotely rationalize this alliance was to imagine a truly apocalyptic event, in which case they'd probably still be fighting eachother ;)

@de kaasboer - I guess in a way deployment is even more critical to these games and failures to properly protect / anchor a flank could result in very one-sided games!

@rusty - 8' x 4' would allow for more flanking manoevres and would thus see our cavalry and flyers have more freedom (as this game went, they were forced to charge head-om). I think the biggest problem for the horde armies was the scenery relative to their deployment: the East was very open but their 2 hardest-hitting squads were deployed fairly central, having a combined frontage of 18" (the biggest gap infront of them was 17", so with the 1" rule go figure what a cluster**** this would create).

@Baeronvonbleat - Saerith and his Caledorian forces are very ruthless when it comes to battle, as such they might seem like they have a lot in common with Dark Elves when in fact nothing could be further from the truth! I've always thought that when it comes to battle, High Elves are just as cold and unforgiving as Chaos and Dark Elves. In my opinion, the canon fluff supports this as well. Part of the reason I chose this paint scheme was to capitalize on this - in battle the High Elves can truly be relentless and brutal.

@Lord of Nonsensical Stuff - indeed High Elves and Dark Elves have a lot of synergy! There are quite a few units and items they could really benefit from having from eachother (e.g. Pendantlord, Annulian Crystal Mage, Swordmasters, Corsairs). The Dragon is indeed not a Games Workshop one - it's the Carmine Dragon produced by Forgeworld. Go back a few pages and you'll see more shots of it :)

My next league game's been arranged for next Wednesday and it's against Dwarfs. Will re-post the list shortly for discussion and analysis!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Sorry about the delay - here's the list for tomorrow's league game:

Dwarfs 2500 pts

Dwarf Lord @283 pts
Shieldbearers
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Master rune of spite
Rune of might
Shield

Dwarf thane @160 pts
Master rune of gromril
BSB
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Rune of fire

Dwarf Runelord @258 pts
Master rune of balance
Shield
Rune of cleaving
Rune of stone
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance

39 Dwarf warriors @410pts
Great weapons
Champion, Standard Bearer

37 Dwarf hammers @524 pts
FC
Master rune of Grungi

Cannon @140 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging

Cannon @145 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging
Rune of burning

Grudge thrower @170 pts
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration x2

Grudge thrower @150
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration
Rune of burning

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons

Opinions appreciated! I'm guessing that the roll for first turn will most likely be the most important one ;)

By the way - I've signed up for an ETC tournament in April so I need to tweak the list a bit. I'll voice my opinions soon enough on this matter, for now though I'm interested in hearing what you all think :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Hey Curu,

The saving grace here is that two of those warmachines are flaming. He also seems to be somewhat short on magic defense (+2 DD, Steal one power dice... lol), so there's a chance you can actually get some spells off.

Looks to me like your points are going to come from the warrior unit, his quarrellers and his warmachines. That horde of hammerers looks like something I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole unless you have the opportunity to whittle its numbers down to the point where you can take it out in a turn. It's also going to be important where he puts his heros. If he bunkers them up in the hammerers, then the choice is simple. If he puts them in the warriors, though, it'll become a bit more difficult to choose who to engage.

I see two possible tactics for the archers - either focus their fire on taking down warmachines, or whittle down the big blocks so that you can take them out with your mobile elements.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Is he missing a musician with Warrior unit? Not being able to swift reform with it would be a dreadful waste. Since I have spent most of last years plaing Dwarfs my advice is to hope he doesn't tower up in some corner with all warmachines there protected with a wall of Hammerers with Lord deployed in a diagonal fasion so it prevents you from bypassing them and disabling you due to deployment of the warmachines of charging or landing behind them. His warriors go on the other flank and crossbowmen cover the centre so that you concentrate on trying to get some points out of those 660 sacreficial points while he blasts you away from his corner waiting to mop up what is left in the last two or maybe three turns. The safest place for your Dragon I belive would be to go directly for the Hammerers with characters. The model should be big enough to block some LoS towards the rest of your army.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
By the way - I've signed up for an ETC tournament in April so I need to tweak the list a bit. I'll voice my opinions soon enough on this matter, for now though I'm interested in hearing what you all think :)


Food for thought: Two of the most dangerous players at the tourney play High elves and Daemons.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 pm 
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@Brewmaster_D - flaming war machines are always welcome compared to the non-flaming ones as far as I'm concerned ;) His magic defense is as good as it can get in our rules pack, the alternative would've been to ditch the Master Rune of Balance for a scroll or two. I agree about your Hammerers assessment and it was indeed something I had in mind during the game!

@Giladis - indeed you are correct! He's lacking a musician because his list was illegal and he had to cut 5 points. He elected to drop the Musician rather than remove a model. Perhaps a poor choice, but certainly one I was very aware of. I'm not sure I understood your Dwarf advice perfectly, that was a very long and complex sentence. Regardless, the report will be up shortly so you can analyze it further from there.

@rusty - indeed I noticed the Norwegian ETC captain fielding High Elves. I'm curious as to what he'll play. Do you know if Crusade plays Open lists?

So as you probably have guessed by now the game is over. I gotta go to bed now but the report will be up first thing tomorrow as I have nothing I have to do before 1 PM. In the meantime, I'll give you a highlights to think about:
- Olannon miscasting back-to-back during 2 turns
- Great Eagles providing a living wall for the Lions
- A cannon lining up 3 eagles, of which 1 was ridden by Naenor in a single shot
- Another LD10 re-rollable test failing
- Dragon Princes showing yet again why I prefer Swordmasters
- A critical spell effect decision with the potential to drastically alter the course of the game
- The importance of winning/losing the most important role: the roll-off for first turn

So yeah, unfortunately that's it for now! Report will be up tomorrow, and I'll also re-post the VC list for my last league game (barring any tie-breakers, which might occur depending on the last matches) for analysis. Meanwhile, I'm considering how to ETC-ify my list - comments appreciated! In particular, I'm looking for advice on how to keep the Lions below 451 points - do I ditch some gear or do I drop some models?

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:49 am 
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Battle Report up!

:: Red Snow ::

My league dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

His list:

Dwarf Lord @283 pts
Shieldbearers
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Master rune of spite
Rune of might
Shield

Dwarf thane @160 pts
Master rune of gromril
BSB
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Rune of fire

Dwarf Runelord @258 pts
Master rune of balance
Shield
Rune of cleaving
Rune of stone
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance

39 Dwarf warriors @410pts
Great weapons
Champion, Standard Bearer

37 Dwarf hammers @524 pts
FC
Master rune of Grungi

Cannon @140 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging

Cannon @145 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging
Rune of burning

Grudge thrower @170 pts
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration x2

Grudge thrower @150
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration
Rune of burning

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Quite a bit of analysis preceded this match. Ulthuan's community had made me very aware of what to expect, how to get the most points and play effectively. As for standard tactics against Dwarfs - full speed ahead and go for cover would apply.

Magic saw me roll 5, 5 and I swapped one for Vaul's Unmaking (seeing as Flames will always be dispelled in his magic phase I saw little value in it) and one for the mandatory Shield of Saphery. Perfect selection against Dwarfs!

In general his characters would determine what I would do: there is no way I could engage the Hammerers with the Dragon alone if they had BSB + general support.

As we went to deployment, I was pretty confident that the mutually agreed upon terrain placement gave me at least something to work with: though I was fairly vulnerable from the get-go there was plenty of cover for me as I advanced, almost regardless of his deployment. In the end, we got the following after deployment:

Image

His General + BSB was with Hammerers, Runelord with Warriors

It came down to that all-important first turn roll, and he rolled a '2'. Hoping I could make a decisive roll here, I managed to get '4' - grabbing first turn!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Turn 1 against Dwarfs is almost always the shortest phase I play in a game (barring filler turns to clear up etc). I think I was done within 5 minutes. Basically everything marched up (save for the 14 Archers) and I got all flyers behind cover, making cannonballs way less effective. Magic was 4v7 and he promptly dispelled me. Shooting saw the 14 Archers remove a single Quarreler and that was it!

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 1 ::

His blocks wheeled to face the incoming threats: making sure the Dragon would hit a front instead of a flank. That was it for movement and we went to shooting...

The non-flaming Grudge Thrower opens up with a misfire and is unable to shoot for this turn! The second one however lands right on target and kills 6 White Lions, despite my Lion Cloaks.

The flaming cannon follows suit and downs another 2 lions. The Quarrelers on his East open up as well but finally my Cloaks prevent any damage. The West sees his cannon kill a Dragon Princes and 2 Archers while his Quarrelers kill another Caledorian, reducing them to 3. I pass my panic test on both this unit and the Lions and we're on to my Turn 2!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Dragon Princes charge the Quarrelers. I figure that if all 3 make it through S&S, I have a decent chance at winning combat and getting some juicy rear action against his War Machines. Saerith charges the Warriors and barely makes his 14" charge! The Dragon Princes unfortunately lose 2 to Stand and Shoot, leaving the Drakemaster alone. Oh dear.

The White Lions move up hard and I use Naenor and 2 Eagles as a living shield to grant them hard cover from the xbows: I can't risk losing a lot of them. The Archers stay still to perform some shooting of their own, intent on showing the Dwarfs that you don't need blackpowder to accomplish something...

Magic is 7v9 and I start off with a 5D6 Vaul's on his Hammerers which is cast with IF. I contemplate getting to work on his Lord's configuration but I decide that it's probably better to remove the banner providing virtually his entire army with a 5+ ward vs shooting as the Lions are relatively weakened and I don't think I can risk an engagement with the Hammerers at all, in which case the Lord's equipment doesn't matter. I remove the Banner and the miscast sees me roll a '4' total. While I escape the Realm of Chaos, a big blast kills 11 Archers and wounds Olannon. Panic is passed.

Shooting sees me direct everything at his non-flaming Cannon and I manage to kill it! The ensuing panic tests sees his non-flaming Grudge Thrower fail its re-rollable LD10 test - meaning it can't shoot next turn!

Combat sees my Drakemaster kill a single Quarreler before he is butchered in return. Saerith kills a champion challenger and the combat is tied.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 2 ::

Hammerers realize their wheeling mistake and come around to flank Saerith in the next turn.

Shooting sees his flaming cannon target Naenor, lining up 2 Eagles behind him. However, he fails to wound the Noble Elf (I would've had 3W and a 2+ ward save anyways) and as such the bounce stops. The remaining Grudge Thrower misses the Lions despite its rune of accuracy and does no damage. The Quarrelers try and down the central Eagle blocking their Line of Sight but only manage 2W! As far as I'm concerned, Eagles do their job just as well with 1W as with 3W, most of the time ;) The Western Quarrelers kill enough Archers from the small unit to panic them off the table. While it's not a big loss to me, that one unit has almost singlehandedly gotten him over 300 victory points with nothing but minor losses in return.

Combat sees him contemplate whether to challenge Saerith with the Runelord or not. He's hoping he can pin him down until the Hammerers come around, in which case he'll need as many models as he can. The challenge is called out, and while Saerith fails to kill him due to a 2+ re-rollable, Faeria finishes the job in style. Regardless, I lose combat by 1 but pass my break test easily.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Party time! Naenor + central Eagle charge the Grudge Thrower, East Eagle + White Lions charge Quarrelers, remaining Eagle blocks Hammerers.

Magic is 11v6 and I start off with a 6D6 Shield on the Lions, getting IF. Olannon dies along with a handful of Archers. I pass panic due to Gleaming Pennant.

Shooting kills a couple of Quarrelers and puts a wound on one of his machines.

Combat sees my Lions kill the Quarrelers and overrun into the Warriors. Between them and the Dragonlord, no less than 23 Dwarfs bite the dust before they get to hit back (11 hits from breath weapon resulting in 5 of these certainly helped) and the retaliation is weak as only a single lion dies (he rolled poor and Shield saved 2 out of 3 wounds caused). Thunderstomp comes up short but it doesn't matter - he breaks and I overrun into a war machine with Saerith, the Lions reforming to face East (that's right, I have no intention of engaging them against his Hammerers). Naenor + the Eagle kill their opposing crew and overrun as well.

Image

The game is basically over at this point. His T3 sees him charge the Eagle - which flees past the impassable terrain and as such he can't catch me. I kill his remaining units, leaving only the Hammerers alone (which I do not engage all game) as I make a tactical retreat (to the accompanying sounds of something that sounds remarkably like a chicken, naturally coming from my opponent who's having a laugh at my withdrawal).

We finish all 6 turns however simply because he wanted to move his Dwarfs a little (fairly uncommon for him ;)). At the end of T6, this is the standing:

Image

:: Victory Points ::

I lost the Dragon Princes, small Archers and Olannon for just below 500 points. He lost everything but his deathstar, which was worth roughly 1000 points. A clear victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

It was a fun and enjoyable game against an opponent I would very much like to play against again, probably trying out some list tweaks etc. For a change, it was also very fast (games vs Dwarfs tend to be, I find) which was perfect for me as we were going for a couple of beers when the games were over (2 more league games were played yesterday).

I certainly shall not complain about my luck in this game. Everything performed as I needed it to and nothing really went wrong. Indeed I believe that getting the first turn was extremely crucial here as it allowed all of my flyers to head for cover, greatly reducing his shooting potential.

I do believe that if he had gotten T1, his best choice would be to direct all 4 machines at the Lions. If they go down, I simply do not have anything which can deal with him. Despite the Dragon being a juicy target, I do believe any Dwarf player should first and foremost simply kill off the Lions in this list: the Dragon cannot win alone against that much infantry and a tooled-up lord.

As the game played out, most choices were fairly obvious. I don't feel that I did anything especially good (nor bad) here, in these matchups the game tends to play itself. I was very happy with deployment though and that is always a crucial part of the game.

I think this game highlights how poor the Dragon Princes are in my already bad matchups: even going against a support unit was too much to ask from them. For 200 points, in this list, I simply do not think they're worth it. While a bus-ish approach of 9 + BSB could be viable (I wouldn't know as I haven't tried this), I am very eager to try the Swordmaster replacement some more. In particular, the threat priority they hold will be very small relative to the rest of the list, which means that they'll usually face less heat than they would in a more typical High Elf army (and we all know how deadly they can be if they reach combat unscathed).

I would like to point out 2 things: I again lost my mage due to miscasts (anyone keeping track?) and my Dragonlord didn't lose a single wound all game (how's that for facing 4 War Machines and 2 Great Weapon Hordes?) - I do believe this has never happened before with this list!

C&C welcome, as always :)

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Once again, I'm typing comments as I read ...

You preview comments about the first turn indicate you are going to win this.

I didn't realize how good the terrain was for you until I saw your first turn moves. (admittedly I didn't look that hard). Very nice.

I think at 4 vs 7 dice on turn 1 I would have just not cast. You don't have enough dice to seriously try both spells, so it is really IF or nothing.

HE 2
Bad luck on the crossbows stand-and-shoot against DPs. They average less than 1 kill. Except you should never call variance of 1, whatever the odds, as bad luck. Still a good charge at that point, as your odds are better than any other choice.
From the diagram, you wheeled the DPs inward on turn 1. If you had not done that, it looks like they could have marched past the crossbows on turn 2, and wheeled towards the artillery park. Maybe the crossbows could have reformed to stop that, but I'm sceptical. Since 8th edition charges don't measure wheel distance, it is often BAD to wheel towards your likely future target. Although I forget that all the time when in front of a table.

I really really do not understand the idea of using the Eagles as a living shield against crossbows. 10 ballistic skill shooters, cover or not, is not a big threat. The expected damage from 10 crossbows at short range is less than 2 dead White Lions!! I would much rather protect Naenor!
(This next comment proves to be wrong later, but I'll leave it in) I'm also not sure you have the Eagles angled correctly for charging war machines next turn.
Did you consider the chance of the crossbows charging? What could they have lined up on? Sending them into Naenor seems a good idea for the Dwarfs, as they will lock him up and block the White Lions behind.

Why did you cast the Vaul's Unmaking at the Hammerers, particularly if you then debated what item to negate? Maybe I'm reading too much into the order of your words, but it sounds like you cast the spell without having a target in mind. I think I would have gone for the big Stone Thrower (reduced to S3 with no scatter re-roll). Going for the banner makes some sense on turn 1, but I don't feel like you will have enough shooting phases from here on out (it's turn 2) to make that impactful.

And then taking out the anti-shooting banner immediately proves to be the right choice. Cannon dead, Stone Thrower stopped ... you should have this game won now.

I don't follow his logic on challenging with the Runelord. The White Lions cannot get to the warriors (edit - they can), so the unit should last several more combat rounds. Better to get some attacks in on the dragon and do some damage, while potentially keeping the Runelord alive for another magic phase. You have to allocate everything on the Runelord to have good odds of killing him, so challenging just trades 11 S5 attacks on the dragon for a Thunderstomp.

HE 3
Ahh, I did not understand the Eagle positioning properly. Well done. I thought your Eagles could not get out of the way of your White Lions. Which means he really should have charged the Eagles with the crossbows.

With the Runelord now dead, why 6d6 Shield? His main shooting will be dead this turn, or your main targets in combat. The only reason to preserve extra White Lions is to engage the Hammerers, but if you plan to engage the Hammerers, wrecking some character equipment with Vaul's is more important than a couple of White Lions. I think I would have done a safer 2d6 shield, forcing him to choose to allow it or allow Vaul's Unmaking. If he allowed the Shield, I'd just stop. But if you really wanted shield, start with a 4d6 Vaul's to follow the same logic, again with lower IF chance.


As expected, it is over at this point. I agree with your evaluation, particularly on the first turn being crucial.
I think his shooting deployment was flawed. The crossbow units need to be able to protect the war machines better. Their shooting does that a little, but their ability to take up space is just as important. If he castles the war machines on the hill, the crossbows belong on the flanks of the hill. Generally I disagree with putting the machines on that hill. Even with your systematic LOS, table edge deployment and trying to shoot between his units is better. If he deploys further back, your archers do not kill the cannon.
I also disagree with his character placement. The Dwarf Lord needs to be in the warriors. Against you the Runelord needs more protection, either by going in the Hammerers or by putting all characters in the warriors.


Last edited by dabber on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Location: Oslo, Norway
Some excellent input here dabber, thanks a lot! Let me try and address each of your points:

Terrain was indeed pretty awesome. However, I do believe that with proper deployment and a suitable piece of terrain basically anywhere on the table, you shouldn't have to risk too much incoming fire. It depends on the context you're playing in, but unless you play a lot on empty tables, there's usually a house / pond / obstacle / rock to hide behind.

4v7 - I was actually hoping for IF here as I don't care if some Archers blow up and getting one spell through rather quickly can be very influential. I do agree that it's a tough decision though, in this spot it's probably not a very poor choice to simply not cast.

DPs vs Xbows: regardless of 1 or 2 dying, they're likely to lose combat. It was a risky move from me. The diagram is a bit off as there was not enough room for 3 models (+ 1" rule) to go past the Dwarfs (at least I don't think so as I would definitely have considered this as threatening his artillery was way more important!). The DP wheel was to get an effective inch more on the Hammerers, making sure they'd stay away (though to be fair, having them charge the DP would likely be a huge mistake on his part).

Eagles as living shields - at this point I wasn't sure whether I wanted to, or even could, engage the Hammerers. I also knew that the Eagles wouldn't be that important from now on and I wanted to do my best to protect the Lions, keeping them as strong as possible as long as possible to counter any potential threats. I was careful to place them so that they could all charge away, though the angles were just barely what they needed to be. As for protecting Naenor, I was restricted by my maximum movement, it might've been viable to pull this one off though. All the angles and the fact that I was at the extreme range of my movement meant that it was hard. I needed an Eagle to be furthest East to charge the Xbows while providing cover. I guess Naenor could've gone centre, in which case he could've skipped 1 Eagle to avoid the 'protection'. A marginally better position I suppose, but this is often a game of margins and they need to be considered.

Crossbows charging - honestly I don't see this as a problem. He can only redirect once and I can flee as I please and he has 0 chance of catching me. I do think the move was a good one, protect the Lions as much as possible while lining up multiple combo-charges. If anything, I should perhaps have swapped Naenor and the central Eagle for a better situation against cannonballs.

Vaul's Unmaking - honestly I didn't consider the fact that I could neutralize his amazing artillery! I simply forgot that this was due to runes and not special rules. Duly noted, I will remember this next time.

The thing is that, when I cast Vaul's I had saved 2D6 for Shield. I was expecting him to dispel it, which would leave me with a decent chance at getting Shield up. When it did go through, I initially thought that I'd go to town on his Lord's equipment but then remembered that I would probably be better off simply leaving the unit alone - especially given my very lucrative positioning to take out the rest of his army. In hindsight, perhaps disabling the big stone thrower would've been a better play. I'm not sure, I was intending to pound the artillery with the Archers for the rest of the game and a 5+ ward makes a world of difference. What do the rest of you think about this? Would it have been better to Vaul's a War Machine? As for the actual effect helping me take out the Cannon AND making his Grudge Thrower fail its panic test - this is influenced heavily by variance and can't be used as evidence. If anything, it might indicate that taking out the ward save banner wasn't a poor choice, but I think far more scenarios must be considered before we can agree on what the optimal choice would've been.

The Runelord challenge makes perfect sense to me. The White Lions could always reach his Warriors (this is impossible for him to prevent: the xbows are the only unit he has which could originally redirect - but my Eagle placement 1" apart means they cannot do this), I'm not sure why you think they couldn't? If he didn't challenge me, I would start chipping away at his Dwarfs. Assuming that he'd land some more casualties on the Lions (by far something that is possible) he'd be steadfast for at least one, maybe 2 rounds - buying the Hammerers just the time they'd need (before Eagle redirection, which he didn't consider).

Eagle positioning - was this why you thought my Lions couldn't charge his Warriors? Had he charge my Eagles, I would've fled. Naenor was positioned (if I remember correctly) so that he would be impossible to charge (2 Eagles being closer, both being impossible to wheel past). Again, he only gets 1 redirect. Getting all these angles and positions correct was a headache though, but I was very pleased with the result!

My final magic phase - at this point I didn't know yet whether I'd have to engage the Hammerers or not, though to be fair a quick analysis would've told me that this would not be necessary and if I had to do so, I'd need more Vaul's on them before it would've been a viable move. Anyway, my train of thought was to cast a really hard shield to prioritize him dispelling it, as he needs to hold out as long as possible with those Warriors to buy his Hammerers time. If nothing else, the psychological impact of Shielded Lions is hard to disregard. I wasn't counting on miscasting (it is only a 25% chance) but I could've used 4D6 and accomplished just the same I think. 2D6 could probably work as well. I guess I was too preoccupied with the mindset of 'use all the dice'. Regardless, I'll agree that 6D6 was not necessary.

I agree that his deployment gave me too much space. In a sense, it is simply too risky with just a 50-50% chance of going first (in which case he could really bring on some hurt). I also agree that his Lord should've been with the Warriors: however for some reason he thought that Hammerers were only Stubborn when accompanied by the General (I guess he mixed their rules up) in which case it makes perfect sense. The way the terrain was though, I would've swapped the Warriors and Hammerers if I were him. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Hammerers are a good anvil for Dwarfs, as opposed to playing the Hammer role (especially in a situation like this) as S6 and Stubborn should never be underestimated.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Very solid game and congrats on the win.

Few points -

Your first turn movement worked perfectly, and really demonstrates the maneuverability of your army. I'm always impressed with your flying movement, and this game is just another stellar example of dazzling aerial domination.

How do you feel about the larger archer unit behind the white lions? While they do provide protection for Olannon, archer fire can be very effective in number. If you had deployed these on the west front and within 30 inches, they could have whittled your nemesis quite effectively! (the Quarrelers! Dun dun dun!!!!) I'll be posting my Tournament game I just had last night soon, and my 20 archer unit were much more effective then I would have expected.

The 3 dragon princes into the quarrelers wasn't a great call in my opinion. You're heavily depleted, dwarves always give a tougher melee fight then expected, and you're expected to lose at least 1 dragon prince on the charge. The unit wiping themselves out on your turn gives him the freedom to not have a threat on his turn. If you had moved the princes up on his flank, this would have forced his quarrelers to move to shoot at them again. The surviving prince (or princes) would still have the option of heading towards the siege hill, or acting as a redirecting unit against the hammerers. (Or if they survive, allow for a combo charge on the hammerers).

While you never got into combat with the hammerer unit, I really think dispelling the banner was less effective then dispelling the lord. Your shooting isn't that impressive, and your major archer unit was firing through cover the entire game. And as you lose archers in each round, the shooting becomes less and less important. Neutralizing the fighting capabilities of the lord would give you an opportunity to take out that hammer unit (if you were feeling daring).

And Magic!!! Once the runelord was killed, 6 dicing spells is risky, and unnecessary. I'd even say 5 dicing, with your miscast fortunes, is unnecessary. You now have the magic superiority, and on a 6 dice phase, you'll be able to dominate the magic phase. Well, that would mean a solid 5+ ward every turn, and you could pick apart his lord, allowing for a possible confrontation.

I think I would have kept Flames over taking Vauls. It's really an underestimated spell against T4 units. First round flames against hammerers kills 8 on average (22% of the unit). Once you hit turn 3 and the rune lord was gone, you could even start draining magic, and hoping he got a weak magic phase and would be unable to dispel. A second round of flames does 42% damage to a hammerer unit (which should leave the hammerer unit at 18 models, if there were no other casualties).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Eagle positioning - was this why you thought my Lions couldn't charge his Warriors?
Yeah. I thought the White Lions couldn't get past the eastern Eagle, even with that Eagle charging the crossbows. Which is silly thinking on my part, as you consistently position things to allow for such options. I think I am also used to your mentioning such detailed positioning considerations in the report, and here you only talked about providing cover to the White Lions, which I considered insignificant.

Curu Olannon wrote:
I also agree that his Lord should've been with the Warriors: however for some reason he thought that Hammerers were only Stubborn when accompanied by the General
That was true in the previous Dwarf book (6th edition), when Hammerers were considered the WORST Dwarf infantry choice. The current Dwarf army book (released just before 7th) made Hammerers the BEST choice, and 8th only made them better.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:03 pm 
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His deployment was horrible, he failed to resist the "hug that hill" sindrome. He basicaly gave you the oportunity to take the upper hand from the very begining.

I will add more later...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:16 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - the larger Archer unit worked out perfectly. The rationale behind having them behind White Lions was that I'd be able to block them up in a 5x6 fashion to provide ranks if necessary. I quickly realised that this wasn't needed. The West was smaller than the diagram seems to indicate so that would've been a terrible position for them; however if it were wider it would definitely be something to consider.

I'll revisit my pictures from T2 - maybe the Dragon Princes could've been of better use. With all 3 making the charge though, it could've been devastating.

Dispelling the Banner - maybe you're right. However the added protection makes his crew go from 33% saves to 55% saves. It did indeed work out perfectly, the reason I chose the banner was that I had no intention of engaging them. I am leaning towards dabber's solution being the best though - target the machine! In a 20-0 environment I might've gone for the lord, but we play W-L-D at the moment.

Keeping Flames... Well I can see there being an argument for it, but to be honest I think that Vaul's is simply more influential here: Flames can trickle somewhat but Vaul's is really flexible. We also have a house rule that Flames is Direct Damage, so no casting into combat.

@dabber - I should've noted my Eagle angling as it was indeed a crucial part of their move: otherwise it would've been horrible. The former rule for Hammerers makes a lot of sense with regards to opponent remembering it wrong, I'm assuming he'll get it right from now on :)

@Giladis - while hugging the hill can often lead to poor deployment, I believe it would've been hard to target the Lions otherwise with VLoS. How would you deploy?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Baeronvonbleat - the larger Archer unit worked out perfectly. The rationale behind having them behind White Lions was that I'd be able to block them up in a 5x6 fashion to provide ranks if necessary. I quickly realised that this wasn't needed. The West was smaller than the diagram seems to indicate so that would've been a terrible position for them; however if it were wider it would definitely be something to consider.

I'll revisit my pictures from T2 - maybe the Dragon Princes could've been of better use. With all 3 making the charge though, it could've been devastating.

Dispelling the Banner - maybe you're right. However the added protection makes his crew go from 33% saves to 55% saves. It did indeed work out perfectly, the reason I chose the banner was that I had no intention of engaging them. I am leaning towards dabber's solution being the best though - target the machine! In a 20-0 environment I might've gone for the lord, but we play W-L-D at the moment.

Keeping Flames... Well I can see there being an argument for it, but to be honest I think that Vaul's is simply more influential here: Flames can trickle somewhat but Vaul's is really flexible. We also have a house rule that Flames is Direct Damage, so no casting into combat.

Largely just play style differences, and not any playing mistakes that I can see. On the flames, I was actually thinking keep Vauls and Phoenix, which may seem a bit crude (shield of saphery just has so much value), but it may have given you a shot at the hammerers. Just a personal preference (or too much Star Wars as a kid?) but when I see a deathstar, I aim to destory the suckers. It's just like bulls eye'ing a womp rat, really.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:42 pm 
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I had a query about your dragon placing. How did you manage to charge from behind the rocks when he couldn't see you? Maybe it's not clear on the diagram but how could you draw LoS to his unit?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Well done sir!

This is one of the best examples of establishing a plan in your head before a game regarding how you're going to win, then executing that plan and not getting greedy. Tactically speaking, leaving those hammerers out to dry was the right move, and considering this was a league game, there is no shame in retreating.

dabber beat me to the comments here, so all I will add is congratulations on getting first turn ;)

Step 1 to beating Dwarves: Get first turn

I realize their book actually does pretty well in this editon, but I really hope that when their book gets rewritten that they increase the tactical diversity of the army. I can't help but feel like even dwarf players must think that playing lists like these gets a little stale.

How many more games in the league Curu? Are you at the top currently?

D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:19 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - I didn't even consider Flames + Vaul's as I consider Shield a must here. However the math is sound, perhaps it would've been optimal actually! By the way, the Archers never had cover - we play VLoS so the shooting at his machines was always without penalty. As for Deathstars, I have an instinct to load all my points against them and just crush them (as I did with the Chosen in my WoC league game) but analysis showed that this is one unit I simply do not want to face unless I have to. I tried really hard not to engage them, just to prove to myself that tactically optimal decisions can overcome instincts.

@John Rainbow - Ah, the Dragon! Well, he was visible, but firing a cannon at a target directly behind impassable terrain is highly risky. He opted to take out a DP and 2 Archers instead, which I think is fairly sound. Basically, to take on the Dragon he needs to roll perfectly for his initial artillery dice - even with the re-roll this is quite hard. He could've targeted it with a Rock Lobber - without penalties what-so-ever - but I believe shooting Lions is a better choice as without them, I simply cannot win (barring insane luck). With the ETC '11 VLoS system, the Dragon is Size 3 while impassable terrain is Size 2 by the way!

@Brewmaster_D - yeah, it took a lot of mental preparation to know that I would have to leave those Hammerers alone. As I've said before, playing the really hard matchups is usually pretty straight-forward and I think this game illustrates my point very well: there were no exceptional moves or decisions and most things were decided by pre-game analysis.

As for getting first turn, I am having a big problem understanding how people can want to play an army which relies so much on getting first turn. I would be super-frustrated! I also hope that the new book gives at least a bit of flexibility for the sake of the poor Dwarf players ;)

League status: in my division I have a 4-0 score and there's only 1 game left - Vampire Counts (old book, cavalry bus). If he beats me AND wins his other game (against Dwarfs - same army as my BR) he wins the division. If I win, I win our division.

In the other division, there is only a single player without losses: Rusty. He stands with 3-0 so far and has yet to face Lizardmen and Empire. In other words, if he wins his last 2 games and I win against Vampire Counts, a tie-breaker game will determine the overall winner.

Will re-post the VC list shortly for analysis!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
As for getting first turn, I am having a big problem understanding how people can want to play an army which relies so much on getting first turn. I would be super-frustrated!
I agree. My Dwarfs have stayed on the shelf since playing a few games early in 8th edition.
That said, the combat power of 3 hordes of gw Dwarfs can get them through a lot of games when the artillery fails. What they cannot survive without artillery help (meaning first turn) is a unit that hits as hard as your White Lions, or multiple big hitters (including the good monsters). He also did not take one of the best mobility assisting magic items in the game - MRoChallenge.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Are you playing with true line of sight and all that strange rules from the BRB?
Does that mean you can hide a dragon behind a rock and if you are tall enough to look over the obstacle you can just chargewith it although the cannons cannot fire at you?
I always thought that if you are behind an obstacle, you can charge nothing as you can see nothing (obstacles have unlimited height where I play)
Forgive my noobish question but as I never played with the BRB rules, I am quite clueless. When I first read the BRB-rules of shooting and saw that you can fire cannon balls through hills and get hard cover from touching walls (wtf, 100 men get hard cover if they stand BEFOR a wall?) I decided to never play with such rules (nor do I know anybody in my vicinity who actualy does).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:13 pm 
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@dabber - MRoChallenge would indeed be nice here!

@Paricidas - we play ETC '11 VLoS in which impassable terrain is size 2, large targets size 3. Thus, I can be seen and shot at and I can charge over intervening terrain. However, if a cannonball bounces into impassable terrain, it stops (as per the BRB, which goes regardless of LoS system).

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Great job Curu, thanks for the battle report and congratulations on another splendid victory. Everytime I read your reports I get a tiny glimmer into your analytical mind and when you put it into focus on the battlefield amazing things happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:09 am 
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Quote:
@Giladis - while hugging the hill can often lead to poor deployment, I believe it would've been hard to target the Lions otherwise with VLoS. How would you deploy?


Since it is VLoS then it is even better.

I would start my deployment with putting down all my warmachines in the top left corner diagonaly so they are facing towards the centre of the battle field in this formation:

----GT----
CN-GT-CN
(just rotate it by 45* counter clockwise)

Making sure there is exactly 1" between the warmachines I would prevent any enemy landing in that corner. With warmachines covered I would deploy the Quarrellers (both units) on the hill. Hammerers would be drawn 14 wide diagonaly infront of the warmachines blocking any approach beacuse the enemy would have to kill roughly 20 Hammerers before anything could theoreticaly land behind them either trying to charge the Warmachines or just landing in hope of charging the next turn. BSB and Runelord would go with the Hammerers. The last unit to be placed would be GW warriors with the Lord prefereably in a 5x8 formation to ensure steadfast and ready to intercept the White Lions that I guess you would be aiming at breaking the Hammerers in support with something.

That covered you would have to do someting about killing Warriors and Quarrelers if you want to win the game. GT's can fire indirectly, while Cannons can shoot L2+ stuff. So non flaming WM target the Prince, flaming cannon targets Eagles and flaming GT targets the Lions. Quarrellers target what every present itself as opportunity. During the first two turns I position the warriors in such a fashion that if shooting wittles you down enough I can reform them as another 10 wide formation infront of the hammerers and the Lord would be free to either stay in the unit or if needed move out to pin down you white lions if suffiecient number of them would still be coming my way. T5 1+ re-rollable and 4+ ward should keep him in the game as he kills 2-3 Lions a turn, I would just need to be careful to keep him within 12" of the BSB.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:48 am 
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@Jimmy - thanks! To be honest though, in this matchup most of the analytical work was done beforehand and a lot of it came from you guys :) The thing is that although I felt that I played well, I didn't feel that I did anything outstanding, compared to say my WoC league game in which I completely out-deployed and destroyed him. I guess most games against Dwarfs tend to be like this (though the last was an exception with a couple of crucial moves).

@Giladis - By deploying like that you essentially leave the Lions free to do as they please. There is hardly anything which can seriously threaten them. The Eagles are still protected by the rocks and the Dragon can deploy and move up just as I did - getting cover from the cannons. By failing to counter the Lions, another option appears: I can directly engage the Hammerers with full-strength Lions (which won't be pretty), using Eagles to block the rest of his army.

I see what you're saying though, and in general I think this is a fairly sound plan. It's just that in this case, it leaves the High Elf player with too many options (also remember that it's W-L-D based, not 20-0 VP).

===

The last list in the league is Vampire Counts. It plays with the rules from the old book and is as follows:

:: Vampire Counts ::

Vampire Lord (1#, 455 pts)
1 Vampire Lord, 255 pts , Level 3
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 The Flayed Hauberk
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dawnstone
1 Master of the Black Arts
1 Red Fury

Vampire (1#, 195 pts)
1 Vampire
1 The Balefire Spike
1 Book of Arkhan
1 Dread Knight
1 Ghoulkin

Vampire (1#, 225 pts)
1 Vampire (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Dread Knight
1 The Flag of Blood Keep

Vampire (1#, 200 pts)
1 Vampire
1 Blood Drinker
1 Dragonhelm
1 Dread Knight
1 Beguile

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Corpse Cart (1#, 75 pts)
1 Corpse Cart

Black Knights (8#, 283 pts)
8 Black Knights, 248 pts , Barding + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Royal Standard of Strigos

Black Coach (1#, 200 pts)
1 Black Coach

Terrorgheist (1#, 225 pts)
1 Terrorgheist

So basically what I want to do is block off his bus, fire on the Terrorgheist and engage his Lord's bunker as soon as possible with Saerith and maybe Naenor (he has no champion in the Ghouls though!).

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Wowie. That's a lot of vampires. And a combat vamp lord with no ward save too. I wonder if they sparkle? (I'm sorry, I had to lmao!)

Chomp Chomp.

This game could be pretty much over turn 2 if you play your cards right.

I think you've got the strategy down here. Totally agree regarding every archer shot on the Terrorgheist - every wound you plink off that guy reduces the effect of his scream.

Realistically, your list is a nightmare for this guy, since you have the tools and ability to engage his lord fast, and end him in one round of combat.

;)

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