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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:45 am 
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Probably this are very noobish questions, but some things strike me as strange here:

O&G: In which order did you charge the nightgoblins? Did the BSB go first? it does not look like that on the picture. If the BSB does not go first, the white lions will. Did you know for sure that there were no fanatics in that unit? I can understand sacrificing a BSB to get off a decisive charge, but charging ahead into a meat grinder with 30 WLs seems odd. Did you calculate his points befor game and knew he would not have any fanatics?

Dwarfs: Why did you deploy your dragon in the open? Were you that sure that skeinsilver would allow you to move behind the hill (or the stones) befor his first round of shooting?

P.S.: I think it was a very big fault of the dwarf to not shoot anything he had on the White lions, no matter the AS and 5+ Ws.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:07 am 
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@dabber - that is of course a possibility. I do have a feeling that I will need to learn to play with fewer flyers though, as it is frequently comped. Also it gives me one less drop :)

@Paricidas - we played open lists so I knew everything. As for the Dwarf game, there was no cover available. Remember that cannonballs only stop when they face buildings, impassable terrain and obstacles now, not hills etc. Deploying in the open was my only shot at threatening him T2. As I said in my last post, T1 his firepower was directed at the Dragon. T2 st things lacked LoS to the Lions, the thrower who saw them scattered 8". Would you re-roll the scatter?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Had a game against Daemons tonight. The player was Dark Reaper (same guy who's played WoC against me the last couple of encounters) and he's very new to Daemons (this was his second game). Regardless, he has a good grasp of Warhammer basics and I feel that he plays better and better for each encounter - falling for less traps and making less mistakes himself. As the army he wields increases in power (WoC -> DoC), things will definitely get harder for me. Anyways, without further ado:


:: Cold and Ruthless ::

My dragonlist:
Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
14 Swordmasters, Bladelord with Skeinsliver :: 247

Special Total: 700

2 Great Eagles :: 100

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2500

His list:

Bloodthirster - scroll, 3+ armour, re-roll misses
Tzeentch Herald, Loremaster (Life), Fly
Slaanesh Herald, Siren Song
Khorne Herald - 3+ Armour, BSB w/Sundering Banner (guess you'd like that Brewmaster ;))
39 Bloodletters, full command +D6 charge banner
19 Daemonettes, full command, can only hold as charge reaction banner
30 Horrors

5 Furies

6 Flamers

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I rolled Fury of Khaine and Vaul's, swapping the latter for Shield.

Well I felt that I could control the deployment fairly well with a superior amount of chaff. Out of the ordinary I tried to go for a potentially game-breaking trap with my Lions - the central ruins would prove disastrous for his Letters if he didn't take care... When deployment was over I was confident that I had the better start:

Image

He won the roll for first turn but decided to give it to me. Normally, I would say this is a poor decision but to be honest he was out of range of most interesting things (careful deployment on my part) and forcing me to go first would reveal my flyers' intent as well as forcing me to close for flamers / spells rather than have him move up a turn without doing anything useful. Overall, I'd say a fairly good call to give up T1, especially since all this mobility could be crucial in the last turn (just see my last Daemons game and imagine if his Keeper would've had wings in his T6!!)

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Being forced to go first I move up cautiously, carefully measuring to ensure Bolt of Change can't hit Saerith etc. I place Eagles with their rear to the Daemons and blocking off my Archers so that Siren Song would be impossible. White Lions move up 10" and tempt him to go for them. It would be a real cluster-**** on his part if he tried this, besides it would let me totally rip apart his Eastern flank!

Magic was 5v3 and I cast Shield on the Swordmasters which he failed to dispel.

Shooting kills a couple of Daemonettes and puts a wound on a Flamer.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

His Bloodletters immediately start wheeling towards the centre (i.e. they didn't take the bait) - the rest move up somewhat cautiously while his Thirster takes a fairly safe position in the middle.

Magic is 3v3 and I dispel his magic missile targetting an Eagle.

Shooting sees the Flamers kill an Eagle.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Well I know I'm running out of Eagles, but the position on the board means that, in my opinion, I don't really need them too much longer. The one remaining I have move to block Daemonettes while both flyers make ready to take them on next turn. White Lions free reform to face the centre, effectively protecting the Archers and forcing the Thirster to re-think his actions. The Archers shuffle so that he can't land in their rear. Swordmasters make ready to counter-attack anything in the middle.

Magic is 7v6 and I cast Fury on the Flamers which manages 3 hits, no wounds.

Archers put down a couple of Daemonettes and manage a wound on the Flamers.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

He does not (!) charge the Eagle. The rest move up and his Thirster lands in my Lions' rear.

Magic is 6v6 and he throws it all at Bolt of Change on Saerith, which I dispel with double 6's.

Shooting sees him rolling miserably and only kill 2 Archers!

Image

Note - the Eagle wasn't fleeing here, I made a mistake in the diagram. See my T3

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

He Siren Songs my Eagle and I flee. The Flyers both charge the 'nettes. Lions move 5" forwards to protect the centre should he choose not to engage them. Swordmasters charge screening Furies.

Magic is 8v6 but between Sundering Banner and mediocre rolls I can't get anything through.

Shooting sees my Archers put up a wonderful display and knock down a couple of Flamers. At this point, they're no longer a threat.

Combat sees his Daemonette Champion challenge and Naenor happily accepts, slaying her where she stands. Saerith cuts down the Herald while Faeria kills a few on her own (diagram somewhat misleading here - they were rather few when I was done). Swordmasters make short work of Furies and reform to help their Lord.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 3 ::

Bloodletters flank Saerith. Thirster charges the rear of the Lions and I pass my Terror test!

Magic is 4v5 and his attempt at Stonefleshing the Thirster is easily dispelled.

Shooting kills a handful of Archers (guess those Flamers are better the fewer there are of them!).

Combat - I declare Loec and just barely manage to kill the Khorne Herald. This wasn't really a question for me at all - I needed him dead and besides taking a wound here wouldn't matter too much. I need to win this fight so Faeria declares fire-breath - scoring 12 (!!) hits which results in 5 dead. The Bloodletters manage 5 hits on Saerith... Scoring 0 killing blows! Naenor kills a couple more Daemonettes for no wounds in return (they end up barely being 5 for steadfast!). The Daemons lose combat but instability rolls aren't too bad - however the 'Letters took quite a beating and are down to 23 models.

The 'Thirster is challenged by the Guardian who puts a wound on him before being thoroughly beaten. I pass my break test! They also pass the combat reform test to bring their full weight of 12 attacks to bear in the next round. Get some!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

How effective can the Swordmasters really be in the right context? I intend to find out and charge the juicy flank of the 'Letters.

Magic is 5v3 and I get Shield on Swordmasters.

Shooting kills another Flamer.

Combat - the Lions score 2W on the Thirster, losing a few in return. I pass my break test. The Swordmasters kill a handful of Bloodletters; Saerith killing a couple more. This time, his 1 (!) hit manages to score a killing blow (!!) - which is saved by Vambraces (!!!). Shield of Saphery keeps my Swordmasters safe and after instability rolls, the Daemonettes are history while there's only a single 'Letter remaining.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

His Horrors charge my Swordmasters, mostly in frustration I think.

Magic is 9v7 and he throws 3 at D6 SD6 hits on everything within 12", which I happily let through with no effect! He then tries to 6-dice Flesh to Stone but I dispel easily with my 7D6.

Combat sees the Horrors lose badly and the last Bloodletter is killed. The Thirster takes another wound and is down to 1W but the brave Lions finally break and are caught!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I charge his Horrors with Saerith and Naenor.

Magic sees me fail to get Shield through his defences.

Shooting is very pleasant as my Archer horde scores 5W on the Thirster and I'm anxiously awaiting his saving throws. The first 3+ saves turn up 1, 1, 2, 2, 5 and unless he can pull off the Standard daemon-dice-trick of only rolling 5+, this game is very much over. He fails to do this, and concedes the game!

Image

In the cold North, the ruthless Elves have won a major victory over their arch-enemy!

:: Victory Points ::

A massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

This is probably the first game against Daemons in which I have felt relatively comfortable throughout the game. My Lion play was very risky and indeed he didn't fall for the trap: all the LD8 tests they passed before finally fleeing from the Thirster was pure luck. Had they broken earlier, I don't know what I would've done (probably let him rampaged on as I was rampaging harder so to speak ;) ) but as it played out they performed excellent!

One thing he played very poorly was his last magic phase. With the Tzeentch Herald within 12" of the Thirster, I would've cast 3D6 Earthblood, 3D6 Flesh to Stone, 3D6 Throne of Vines (opposite order). There is no way I can dispel these all (2 if I'm lucky!) and Lifebloom could've been critical. With that being said, it hardly mattered at this point as he had no army left!

The Swordmasters performed excellent but I do suppose this is one of their better matchups. One of the main reasons I'm trying them out is because I believe they'll be an excellent choice (compared to the Dragon Princes) in matchups that are usually tough for me (Empire, Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms in particular, but also Daemons and Dark Elves).

I actually never missed my third Eagle, which I found surprising. I guess it has to do with how quickly I commited and how effectively I killed off his rather fearsome blocks.

As always, C&C welcome (also for Dark Reaper as he's very new to Daemons and intends to play them more!). For those of you who notice the little things - this was my 10th game with the Dragonlord. The record is now 9-1, which I'm very pleased with (especially considering what and who I've faced!). I hope to be able to continue like this and I definitely like the way it plays ;)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Fun game as usual, but there is definitely a few things in the list that I will change before our next encounter. The big horror block was almost useless (as i suspected it might be), and a unit of ten for chaff clearing is probably more viable. A few fiends to put pressure on the flanks is definitely something I will consider. I think my deployment was OK, but i would have preferred to have the Bloodletters in a more central position. I haven't used the Bloodthirster since the old Hordes of Chaos book and it was a pleasant reunion to say the least. :D I still have to figure exactly how much punishment he can take, but I am pretty sure he and I are going to be great friends.

Well played Olannon. I sincerely believe you deserved the win, but I feel I am getting a little bit closer to get something out of a game myself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:10 am 
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I can not commend much on the last game, as I have never seen a demon army that does not at least field 3 slanesh beasts, but imho the battle between the thirster and the white lions was pure gamble, for both the thirster and the WLs. Imho justice was done in the fact that this CC costed the lives of all participants :D.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:22 am 
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@Dark Reaper - indeed it was a fun game! I dread the day when I fail my crucial rolls the way you do yours ;) I agree that Fiends are an excellent choice here.

@Paricidas - by Slaanesh bests I assume you mean Fiends? My very first game against Daemons was one where he didn't have Fiends but used Hounds in a similar role. Indeed these fast creatures add a lot of flexibility!

The Lions' risk was a calculated one. Even if they had failed very early on, the Thirster would've been unable to help in the central combat. With his first move, I knew he was going to go for the Western flank as he didn't have combat support nor any good options to my centre/East.

Looking forward to a tweaked list and the next encounter :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Wonderful writeup Curu!

I don't want this to be misinterpreted as an "I told you so", because nothing could be further from the truth, but I feel like this match really highlighted the strengths of an all archer core. I'd love to see a spearmen core of any sort take out a Bloodthirster and Flamers (!!) without heavy magical support. Truly spectacular to see; this list is really shaping up to be something spectacular.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Do you say he should cast earthblood simply because he regens a wound? I am only asking a the regen save only goes on the unit the caster is with NOT the thirster. If this is what you mean then I think you are right. This would be correct way to play it as it forces you to try and dispel with less dice to stop him recovering wounds or give him the wound and save your dice for his other spells which are potentially more damaging. He could also have saved a single dice as well to do this, earthblood casts on an 8(?) so with a single dice and a Tzeentch caster there is a chance he could get it at the end of a phase with a cheeky dice roll.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:36 pm 
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@John Rainbow: Yes, casting Earthblood itself does literaly nothing, but with the Bloodthirster nearby, the lore attribute would heal a wound on the Bloodthirster, which makes it worthwhile.

Dark Reaper wrote:
The big horror block was almost useless (as i suspected it might be)
Was it that bad? It did attempt to cast Bolt of Change, which would horribly mess up the dragon. But I don't think it fits well alongside taking Life, because Life works best with Throne, and you don't have enough dice for both.

Dark Reaper wrote:
and a unit of ten for chaff clearing is probably more viable.
I don't think 10 horrors can clear much. Even if they charge, an Eagle has decent odds of holding.

Dark Reaper wrote:
A few fiends to put pressure on the flanks is definitely something I will consider.
That I think you needed. 2 Fiends and another Fury unit would be great.

What I thought was weak in the list was the daemonettes. I understand Siren Song, but you only need 10 daemonettes for that, not 20. And for Siren purposes, the one use stubborn banner is better. Or try no daemonettes at all, and take two heralds with Siren Song on steeds. They can hide early, and use their 20" march to get into good position to Siren.


For the Daemons, the Bloodthirster movement was the big problem. Turn 1 he went west, towards his worst possible target - the White Lions. And his supporting infantry hung back, instead of surging maximum forward.
Turn 2, instead of charging something, he continued to manuever, yet stayed near those White Lions. That move accomplished nothing except to delay combat with the White Lions. Charging the Swordmasters would be much better. Charging the archers would also be better. Landing between the Swordmasters and archers would be better. Best would be charging the Swordmasters, having them flee from Terror and panic the archers behind, and then redirecting into the archers. Between Terror and break test, the archers probably don't hold (admittedly the White Lions did make both those 8- tests). Also if you get into the archers, a White Lion flank charge puts only 3 White Lions in contact, instead of 4, because the archers block the extra one.


One interesting thing about this game is the standard "Daemons are brokenly powerful" aspects could easily shift it to a massacre the other way. If Prince Saeith fails his ward save against killing blow, and the White Lions fail Terror or immediately break against the Bloodthirster (both of which are about 50-50), I think this goes the opposite.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:51 pm 
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@Brewmaster_D - no doubt the Archers were wonderful here! I particularly liked the round where I put 4 wounds on the Flamers from something like 22 Archers ;)

@John Rainbow - indeed Earthblood itself would be useless, but Lifebloom would've easily been worth it. Of course he could've also cast some of the other cheap spells, the main point was spending 3x 3D6 to maximise his chance of regenerating wounds and making my dispel very hard.

@dabber - Bolt of Change has a rather short range. Maybe this block would've performed better with stronger magic phases: even the crystal has problems if the winds are double 4's or higher (doubles). As for the unit of 10 Horrors - I think he's referring to their ability to cast a cheap magic missile for chaff-clearing purposes.

As for the Bloodthirster's movement - both the Archers and Swordmasters have champions. This would lock him for long enough for me to bring in extra help (most likely) in which case he won't particularly like his situation. If he charges the Archers, he's facing 30 shots first, then a champion challenge. With the Gleaming Pennant, I am more likely to hold with them than the Lions, and a flank charge from the Lions with another challenge setting up for Saerith to help will surely break him. Overall, I think the Bloodthirster's main problem was his inability to force my hand, movement-wise, which effectively blocked off a lot of juicy targets for him.

If Saerith had failed his Ward save, he would still lose combat big. Faeria would've had a LD9 re-rollable monster reaction test and the Swordmasters would still hit his flank next turn (he lost really big, the couple of extra CR from Saerith wouldn't have mattered). Granted, if this had happened AND the Lions had fled from the charge, things might've been a little ugly ;) It would leave his Thirster with the option to charge my Swordmasters after they charge the Letters, in which case I'd challenge out and charge Naenor + Faeria into him again (complicated what-if scenario ^^) OR he could start ripping apart Archers.

Next time in such an encounter I don't think I'm likely to take such a big risk with the Lions. LD8 only goes so far and I was very lucky to pass so many tests this game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Alright guys, next league game's been decided - this Sunday I will face Skaven.

His list, for reference:

Warlord
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Dragonhelm
Sword of Anti Heroes
Talisman of Preservation
Shield
Other Triksters Shard

Chieftain
BSB
Enchanted Shield
Foul Pendant
Ironcurse Icon
Biting Blade

Grey Seer 240 (4 spells from Ruin, 0 from Plague)
Talisman of Endurance
Scalm
Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

49 Stormvermin
Command
Storm Banner

40 Plaguemonks
Command
Plague Banner

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

Hellpit

Doomwheel

Warp Lightning cannon

Sum 2499

So basically, get Lions into combat to reduce 13th and similar spells' effect, avoid Wheel with Saerith until Archers have reduced it at least a bit, try and weather the storm banner as good as I can and use Eagles to create good matchups! NB - watch out for Plague Monks with Lions ;)

Any more advice you'd like to give before this game starts?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:41 pm 
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It's a nasty list, that's for sure, and it'll probably all come down to whether you can get the dual charge off with your characters to bag his Grey Seer. Storm Banner will make it hard, but not insurmountable.

Harking back to an earlier post of mine, you said that your group allows you to cast 7th edition spells into combat. So getting the White Lions into combat won't protect from Scorch or Dreaded 13th, will it? If you remember, that is exactly what I was most concerned about when you guys all said it was legal and fair ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:22 pm 
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We arrange the old spells into the new categories, as such 13th is Direct Damage and cannot be cast into close combat :)

Combo-charging the Grey Seer is definitely lucrative! I'm hoping some aggressive moves can force the Storm Banner very early on

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:42 am 
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As I do not know how familar you are with skaven tricks here some advice (plz forgive me if you do not need it):

Stormvermin are not really good, they become very very unpleasant (even in very small numbers) if death frenzy is cast upon them (3 str 4 attacks).

Even if the 13th is cast as a direct damage spell, the slaves have the rule that one can fire into their close combats with ranged attacks. So I would have a word about the rulesets with your opponent befor battle.

As in many skaven games, the randomness of stormbanner and gutter runner arrival will demand some flexibility on both sides of the table. Be aware that he can get a second "You shallst not fly" effect via howling warpgale.

You have myriads of very tasty targets for the doomwheel.

Monks are frenzied (I think you knew that already :D)

Do not underestimate the range of gutter runners (30 inches, if you count in the movement, and he only needs the 6 to get poison on your eagles).

Stormbanner as per FaQ, affects ALL shooting.

Fleeing doomwheels still cast Zaap!

Doomwheels pursuit with 3d6 (not with the highest two out of 3).

Imho the main weak points in this skaven army are the lack of a bunker and the lack of slaves. The seer can only go into the stormvermin, as he is otherwise subject to frenzy or the selfdestruction rule of the slaves. As the Stormvermin will want to see CC, so does the grey seer, and he will need skitterleap to bail out of it.

Don’t forget about the d3 warpstone tokens, they can be a nasty surprise during magic phases.

Seeing the earthening rod on the seer, be prepared to see a lot of six-dicing on his side of the table. The lore of ruin has several gamebreakers to offer against your list (howling warpgale: no flight –1 to hit for archers, skitterleap for emergeny bail outs, death frenzy for stormvermin, scorch as a leaserguided str 4 stonethrower and here I am not sure but the latest skaven FaQ made the ini-test-or-die-spell a template, don’t know if Puff the magic dragon can use the ini of his rider, otherwise your prince may find himself unmounted rather quickly)

40 slaves do not block serious infantery units for as long as most skaven haters would like to tell you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Thanks a lot Paricidas - quite a few things I'll be sure to remember here ;) I'll spend a couple of hours going through his list and the Skaven book for sure. In particular, I want to learn their magic better as thus far I've mostly faced 13th spam (which in turn has mostly failed!). He doesn't have Earthing Rod though - did you mean the Power Scroll? For sure casting 13th on 13+ is insane...

I just finished writing a topic about ingame tips and tricks I use. Have a look and share your own as well - viewtopic.php?f=66&t=38217 ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:19 pm 
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I thought I noticed you getting +2 to see who goes first, what is gigging you that, I could sure use that in my army.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:41 pm 
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AsurPrince wrote:
I thought I noticed you getting +2 to see who goes first, what is gigging you that, I could sure use that in my army.
+1 deploying first, and +1 for Skeinsliver.

Edited: Thanks Curu. :3


Last edited by ~Milliardo~ on Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:09 pm 
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A leadership 6 test with re-roll will fail 34% of the time.

So... identify targets that are near the Wheel and Abom that can panic them (Giant Rat darts and gutter runners).

Flames of the Phoenix and Vauls are your best friends if you get em in this match up.

Have your archers keep pace this game - They are VERY effective at close combat against skaven and cancelling the rank will break SiN and really weaken any steadfast tests.

Kill BSB ASAP.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I'll spend a couple of hours going through his list and the Skaven book for sure. In particular, I want to learn their magic better as thus far I've mostly faced 13th spam (which in turn has mostly failed!). He doesn't have Earthing Rod though - did you mean the Power Scroll? For sure casting 13th on 13+ is insane...


Honestly, I never scored anything elsee but a massacre against HE when my grey seer entered the battlefield. The danger with this list is that he has a lvl 2 warplock engineer who will more or less make sure that he gets any spells he wants (and most of them on the seer). Although the lore of plague has the most devastating anti-elfen spell (plague, comp 18, toughness test or lose a wound, on a 5 or 6 it jumps into the next unit), the lore of ruin will give you enough things to worry about. In fact, there is not a single spell that would not be good against your army. The worst perhaps is “Howling warpgale”, it prevents flying until the casters next magic phase and gives a –1 to all non-skaven BF shooting. I think it is quite obvious that this is a spell you do not want to let through. This will be followed up by warplighning (d6 str 5 hits, neither WLs nor eagles like this spell) or scorch. Scorch is by ar my favorite spell, as it allows the skaven player to put a 3” template anywhere he wants (in the vicinity of 24 inches). Anything that is covered by the template will receive a str 4 hit. While this is most of the time used to bring spearmen blocks down to “LOL”, a unit of 30 WLs is big enough to make it a worthy target.

As for the earthening rod: He does not have one, but he took the powerscroll? The best defence against a powersroll is a dispell scroll…

If I was the skaven, I would nail your dragon down in the second round with the stormbanner and shoot him with the WLC and the doomwheel. Doomwheels do 3 hits on the nearest unit (no matter what the circumstances, no LoS etc.) which will hit with the strengh of an artillery die, causing d6 wounds per hit, I had a game where it killed a chaos giant, a general and the tzeench wizard in a single turn (the bolt jumps if it kills a unit).

If you charge a unit of 40 plague monks with WL, the best result you are looking at is a win bought by the loss of around 11 models, when your WLs are shot down to maageable size this will be much worse…


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:41 pm 
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@AsurPrince - you get +1 from finishing deployment first and Skeinsliver gives you +1, for a total of +2. Very helpful indeed ;)

@~Milliardo~ - it's important to note the difference between fewer drops and finishing deployment first! I assume you know this, just wanted to point it out for everyone else reading so that people don't misinterpret it.

@Baeronvonbleat - good point about panic tests! Will try my best to pay attention to such situations. Flames and Vaul's are indeed something I'm hoping to get, though if I only get one I think I'll keep Flames. As for Archers, I've seen them shred Skaven before and intend to do so again ;)

@Paricidas - if the Dragon is grounded he's still M6 with Swiftstride and can pivot freely, so rather mobile compared to my Eagles. I know very well how much of a problem the magic can be in this game and I'm hoping to mitigate this by casting Drain and prioritizing relative to my position. I do believe I have a deployment advantage so will do my best to get at the WLC while keeping the Doomwheel away from Saerith.

I'm headed off to bed now, will study up on some Skaven details tomorrow! Thanks for all the advice, please keep it coming if there's more :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:52 am 
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One thing on the bonebreaker:

Warlords on bonebreakers cannot get LoS! (allthough in this army -without rat ogres - there is really nothing that could at least pretend that it could do so).
Like your BSB he monst.cav., so he will have 4 healthpoints.
The bonebreaker is nothing to sniff at, it will probably go into his SV to boost their mediocre damage output, same for the BSB. While those character models are not good per se, death frenzy will turn them into rather desasterous rank and file killers.

Honestly, the whole army seems very unorthodox to me and I do not really know how your opponent will play it. From the looks it seems to me that it is game over if your dragon makes it into BtB contact with his SV unit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:18 pm 
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That's a great summary of what to look out for when playing skaven Paricidas!

One thing that I'll add is that the Grey Seer doesn't need to pick a lore until he's rolling for spells. The rules specifically state that he can freely mix between the lores, so he can go 2 on plague 2 on ruin if he so chooses. This makes them very flexible, depending on the army, and of course they can always take the dreaded 13th.

Bonebreaker looks like Dragon food to me ;)

Looking forward to reading this battle Curu! When is it scheduled for?

D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
One thing that I'll add is that the Grey Seer doesn't need to pick a lore until he's rolling for spells. The rules specifically state that he can freely mix between the lores, so he can go 2 on plague 2 on ruin if he so chooses. This makes them very flexible, depending on the army, and of course they can always take the dreaded 13th.
D


Grey seers and Rat demons are the only models that can take spells from two lores and they both have two signature spells, skitterleap and the 13th. While skitterleap can also be acquired by simply rolling a "1" on the lore of ruin tables, the 13th can only be wielded when changed for another spell. It is well worth noting in this list that he can only change ONE spell for skitterleap OR the 13th. It is quite obvious (powerscroll) that this grey seer is planing to force a 13th into the throat of the WLs, as he will only need 3 powerdice to cast it reliably, together with the warpstone tokens this will make up for at least one very strong magic phase on the side of the skaven player. High magic will surely be a nice counter to this.
Fortunatly he will need both 13th and skitterleap if he wants to play it somewhat safe and this opens a small window for him rolling bad for spells (thats probably the reason why he upgraded his Warplock to lvl2).
Skaven can bring much more to the table than just this and it is a rather tame list, I guess it is influenced by fluff or some kind of AC (ETC drafts are already online?). However, skaven are always worthy (if not cheesy) opponents, no matter what they bring to the table.
Looking forward for another interesting battle report. Wish you much luck, Curu, although I think your opponent may need it more than yourself...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:46 pm 
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@Paricidas - that is pretty much my plan - get flyers in against combat block and let them run wild! I just have to neutralize a couple of things first as well as dodging lightning bolts and magic... Phew, sounds like a lot when I say it like that ;) As for Lore - he was requested to choose when writing a list so he took 4 from Ruin. I'm guessing Drain will be vital here. If you need a link to our AC's I can get it, it's like a page of two back. Thanks for the kind wishes ;) I'll likely have a report up tomorrow night!

@Brewmaster_D - see my answer to Paricidas with regards to Lore.

The Bonebreaker should be fairly easy to take down, though with Sword of Anti-Heroes, 4W and 4+ ward I can't approach him too easily, i.e. it depends a lot upon the state of the Dragon, his unit etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Tonight's league game saw me face the dreaded Skaven. Indeed one of our worst matchups, as most of you will agree. How did the Dragonlord fare against the dreaded Ratmen? Read on!

:: Unspeakable Filth::

My Dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2498

His list:

Warlord
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Dragonhelm
Sword of Anti Heroes
Talisman of Preservation
Shield
Other Triksters Shard

Chieftain
BSB
Enchanted Shield
Foul Pendant
Ironcurse Icon
Biting Blade

Grey Seer 240 (4 spells from Ruin, 0 from Plague)
Talisman of Endurance
Scalm
Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

49 Stormvermin
Command
Storm Banner

40 Plaguemonks
Command
Plague Banner

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

Hellpit

Doomwheel

Warp Lightning cannon

Sum 2499

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic - I rolled a double 2 and opted for Flames, skipping Vaul's. I took a couple of minutes to decide but in the end the choice seemed to be a clear one. The other spell of course swapped to Shield of Saphery. His Warlock got Lightning and the 6th spell (ini-test something) - leaving his Grey Seer with Scorch, Death Frenzy, 13th and Warpgale.

Deployment saw me try and get the Flyers near safety as soon as possible, while taking a central position with the Lions and holding the Archers back. The Dragon Princes got a flanking role, hoping to get at the Warp-Lightning Cannon fairly soon. Overall, I was rather happy with this:

Image

With +2 to start, I got first turn and gladly took it.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Storm Banner goes up. I move up aggressively and get Saerith in cover. The rest do as much as they can but it's relatively futile with M2. Lions get a good position, as do the Princes.

Magic is 4v3 and I get a HUGE cast (value of 20 before the bonus) on Flames, which draws out his scroll.

Shooting fails to impress his Doom Wheel: Storm Banner removing literally a dozen hits.

Image

:: Skaven Turn 1 ::

Storm Banner runs out!

Rat Darts move to intercept and re-direct Lions and Princes. The rest move up and it's clear that he wants the Stormvermin into combat as soon as possible with the Plague Monks as a secondary line unit.

Magic is 4v5 and he uses his single Warpstone Token (he only got 1) to even it out and casts an IF Warpgale (the miscast does nothing significant). So much for Storm Banner running out.

Shooting sees his Gutter Runners poison an Eagle to death, put 2W on the other while his WLC kills Naenor. Sigh.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Lions and Princes charge the intercepters. I wheel the Lions so that a combat reform will allow them to completely block off any paths to Saerith, effectively keeping the Doom Wheel away.

Magic is 5v3 and he dispels my 2D6 Shield on the Lions with 3D6 of his own. My 3D6 Flames of the Phoenix on his Plague Monks get IF (sigh) and 12 of them die; Olannon suffers a wound.

Shooting sees all my Archers managing to put a total of 1W on the Doomwheel (I could not roll 6's to wound!). Test has no major significance (think he got D6 S6 hits and -1D6 movement but he suffered no wounds).

In combat I kill both redirectors and reform the Lions to block off Saerith. The Dragon Princes also decide to reform: I do this for 2 reasons - if I had rolled 11+ I would've been out of charge-arc for the WLC. By reforming I also gained a guaranteed charge (being within 10"). This would prove to be a poor decision...

Image

Diagram mistake here - his Gutter Runners panicked due to the Rat Dart being killed in combat

:: Skaven Turn 2 ::

His Warlords' Stormvermin charge the Lions, as does the Doomwheel. The Hellpit moves a mighty 15" towards the Archers. Slaves free reform and block the Dragon Princes' path. So bad of me not to consider this.

Magic is a disastrous 7v4 after he rolls double threes and channels. This is arguably the worst phase I can have with Crystal as he has a LOT of flexibility given the fact that he has multiple high-priority spells. He starts off with a 2D6 Death Frenzy and scores 14 with his +4 bonus. I simply throw everything I have at dispelling it as I cannot risk the Stormvermin gaining that bonus, even for a single round. He gets up Warpgale again and Lightning kills the full-wound Eagle with 6 S5 hits.

Shooting kills the last Eagle. Doomwheel rolls S2 and fails to impress the Lions.

Combat - the Lions go to work and kill a lot of Stormvermin (roughly a dozen) + the Doomwheel. In return, 7 of them die. I win combat but he passes his test.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Dragon Princes charge blocking Slaves. Saerith moves behind the White Lions and around them (the diagram is a little bit off here - there was clearly space to go between Lions and the rock, even with the 1" rule) to have the flanks of the Stormvermin and the Plague Monks next turn. The beauty of this is that his WLC can't easily hit me because of the bounce-nature and my proximity to combat-engaged units.

Archers reform to Horde and the 14-man unit moves to get a flank charge later on against the HPA. Another mistake, as it would turn out...

Magic is 7v6. He didn't dispel Flames last turn so it burns another few Plague Monks. They're now down to 18. I start off with a 4D6 cast of Shield, which has a result of '10' after my +2 bonus. He dispels with 3, leaving 3v4. I then cast Drain on 3D6 - scoring a total of '7' with my cast bonus. He easily dispels but Flames is still in play.

Shooting - I open up on the Hell Pit but score but a single wound.

Image

:: Skaven Turn 3 ::

Plague Monks wheel to be able to charge Lions next turn (again the diagram is a little off - this was clearly possible). I didn't mind this as I had no intention of there being a next turn for them to help out ;) Hell Pit charges Archer Horde.

Magic is 8v6 and he starts dispelling Flames on 3D6. His remaining 5D6 go into Death Frenzying the Stormvermin but I dispel with my 6D6 (phew!).

His WLC misfires and is gone! Gutter Runners target Saerith but no effect; the Elven armour and tough hide of Faeria prove resilient to the Slings.

Combat sees the Lions bring the Stormvermin down to ~20 rats, but they're drastically weakened themselves as there are only ~15 Lions remaining. Archers lose badly but hold on Steadfast.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Dragon charges Vermin (champion was dead after attack allocation last time). My 10-strong Archers charge the Hell Pit in its flank while the 14-man try to help my Dragon Princes (a flank charge would break Strength in Numbers - thank you very much FAQ!), however they fail to meet the 7+ required to make it.

Magic is 9v6 and I start off with a 2D6 Shield which is dispelled. I then cast Drain on 2D6 and he lets it through. The last dice see me cast Flames on the Monks but I IF again and Olannon dies (seriously, how many times have I lost a mage due to miscasts??). The Monks are reduced to 10 rats.

In combat I declare Loec on Saerith and challenge. His Warlord accepts (he saw no other option as any other action would see his Stormvermin utterly destroyed). Due to Loec Saerith and Faeria barely manage to kill him, Saerith is left on 1W! The Stormvermin are killed down to 7 remaining by the Lions and break, but I fail to catch them. The Lions are now 11 remaining. The Hell Pit keeps killing Archers.

Image

:: Skaven Turn 4 ::

His Plague Monks manage to restrain and instead reform to face me in the next turn. Grey Seer and BSB moves out of Slave-bunker. The Stormvermin flee (6 remaining, needing Insane Courage).

Magic is 6v4. He Power Scrolls 13th at the Lions but I barely manage to dispel it with my 4D6!! The last 2D6 come up double '1' and the phase ends. Phew!

Shooting again does nothing as my armour saves are passed.

His Slaves vs Princes FAIL their LD10 re-rollable break test!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I combo-charge his Slaves with Warlock Engineer with my Princes and 14 Archers. Lions and Saerith combo-charge the Plague Monks and I manage to place Saerith on the extreme left flank - meaning an overrun can take me into his BSB.

Magic and shooting don't exist so it's straight to combat! I murder the Monks with ease and Saerith overruns into the BSB.

The Slaves lose badly but hold. My Archers are reduced to 3 and they fail the necessary Insane Courage test - leaving the Hell Pit to pursue off the table.

Image

:: Skaven Turn 5 ::

Grey Seer moves away from the BSB, placing himself behind the Lions. Gutter Runners move up.

Magic sees Scorch and 13th finally kill the Lions, he got a big phase and I was powerless to dispel both.

Shooting again does nothing, however combat sees me kill the Slaves and they explode, leaving the Dragon Princes 3 strong and the Archers 11. Saerith murders the Skaven BSB and reforms to face the Grey Seer.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

In my last turn of the game I make more mistakes than I think I ever have, relative to my options. I charge the 13th Clanrats with my Dragon Princes and they flee. I charge Grey Seer with Saerith (he is 8.5" away) and he flees and I fail to catch him. The Archers reform and move as far away from the Hell Pit as possible, meaning he'll need 16+ to catch them.

Image

:: Skaven Turn 6 ::

Grey Seer fails to rally, Hell Pit fails to catch the Archers.

However shooting sees the Gutter Runners put up a spectacular display and manage to kill the remaining 3 (!!!) Dragon Princes, netting him 200 VP! I am now very nervous as we go to calculation as I only have Saerith and the Archers left!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

A careful calculation of Victory Points sees it come down to bonuses: he has only the Gleaming Pennant banner, whereas I have Stormvermin banner, Monk banner and his BSB. This crucial 125 point bonus difference meant I was barely able to get a win: the total difference was a little below 200 Victory Points in my favour. A very closely-fought game with brilliant moves and glaring mistakes on both our parts, luckily I didn't pull the shortest straw in the end. A victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

I've never played this Skaven player before. I've seen him play a couple of times and I know he's a skilled player. However, yet again I find myself falling hard for the same tricks I use so much - redirection, angling. His use of Rat Darts and Slaves was exceptional and this was a real problem for me as I failed to consider these possibilities. The choice to engage the Doomwheel against the Lions and cast 13th on 4D6 when I also had 4D6 AND Drain up were obviously mistakes and he said at the end of the game that he'd probably be annoyed at these mistakes for several days.

On my part, I believe failing to overrun with the Dragon Princes was the biggest mistake. The chance of rolling 11+, even with Swiftstride, is fairly low and I should've seen the Slave-block coming, especially since I reformed so stupidly (there really was no need to have a guaranteed charge as opposed to having to roll like 5+ on Swiftstride). Also the last-turn charges were really poor of me - since we play a win/lose based system, there is nothing to gain for me by getting 'more points'. I should've ran the Dragon Princes away and, when his Grey Seer fled, done some calculation. In general I'm bad at properly gauging victory points toward the end of the game. Ironically enough I did the right thing in my game against Dwarfs (which was only a practice game!) and I seriously need to start doing this more.

If you think the Hell Pit killed those Archers way too fast you're right: I realized after the game was over that we played its attacks as hits (when he charged we simply forgot to roll to hit with his 3D6 attacks as he had impact hits first and then thunderstomp after). This, I believe, is mostly something he should bear in mind but of course I should know his army well enough to point out the fact that his Hell Pit has to roll to hit, not just wound ;) I very much doubt he did it on purpose, i.e. I believe it was an honest mistake. Most likely those Archers all would've died and luckily it didn't make a difference (at the end of the game the HPA had 2W left). Next time I will remember it though ;)

I'm sure there are a lot of other things to point out, but for now I just want to hear what you all think of this game. Did I deserve to win? What could I have done differently?

P.S - I'm so tired of losing mages to miscast. If I ever play magic-heavy High Elves again I swear I will try and make a Life-based list work.

I hope you enjoyed the report ;) Please leave a reply if you have anything to comment or criticise!

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Well played, sir! :3


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:15 am 
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Just a thought, on your turn 5 couldn't you have declared a charge on the storm vermin with your dragon lord; he would have had to auto flee and you could then redirect to charge the plague monks as planned? It seems to me you played well but the thing that turned it from a draw to a win was certainly the insane LD failur of his slaves. The more I read your battle reports the more I like your list though; I think I'm tempted to try fielding a similar list just with one or two items swapped over.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:03 am 
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Very well played sir! Loss of your mage really hurt, letting his grey seer take down your WLs. I am going to re-read this as my playing partner is Skaven and building a list somewhat structured like this. For all the problems though, you persevered.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:36 am 
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Hey Curu!

A hard fought battle! I had to take a break from reading it around the High Elves turn 3, and I'll admit in my mind I just didn't see how you could win at that point. I was pleasantly suprised at the outcome!

Regarding your questions: of course you deserved to win. In a competitive environment, a win is a win. Did you play a perfect game? No, rarely does one play a perfect game. However, you realize the errors that you did make, and those errors will stick with you and make you a stronger player.

I have a few comments about both yours and your opponent's playing. First yours:

- I think this game is a great example of using terrain to your advantage. For your Lions to face both the Stormvermin and Plague Priests at once would have been disastrous, but through clever use of the two pieces of impassable terrain, you reduced the units he could bring to bear at once. I can't help but think of the movie 300 all those troops at the entrance of a bottleneck ;)
- I know the banner and warpgale were destined to make an appearance and ground your eagles, but I still feel like committing one or two further West would have kept your options open, eliminating that cannon sooner.
- Upon reforming your White Lions after defeating the giant rats in turn 2, by the looks of things you could have reformed them so their Western tip was further south, opening up a channel for a flank charge by Faeria and Saerith. This would have likely saved you from a turn of attrition style fighting with his bonebreaker warlord, giving you the casualties you need to break steadfast

And his playing:

- Your opponent seemed very wily, but inconsistently so. For every genious move like moving the slaves to protect the cannon, there was a move that left me shaking my head - for example, what was he doing with his Plague Monks for the majority of this game?
- In the High Elf turn 5, I'm not sure why he didn't try to restrain with the hellpit. It's actually got the best leadership in the army. With 3 models left, it was unlikely the archers were rallying, and it would have left the hellpit in a good position to get back in the game on turn 6. This move, had he done it, could very well have cost you those archers and the win.

I love a close game, and this one didn't fail to deliver! Great read Curu - looks like things are looking good for you so far in the league! How long does it last?

D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:57 am 
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Deployment skaven: I would have deployed the doomwheel on the western flank and risk it frying my giant rats. Its 18 inch zaaap would have really crippled the DPs movement phases. The doomwheel charging the WLs was rather suicidal, but I cannot tell if this was a sound tactic so impact hit and zaaap (although only str 2) would bring the WLs down to manageable (13th-able) size. By the time his DW died, he had enough hammer units left, so that was probably an intentional sacrifice, but with a dragon running around, I would have probably charged it somewhere into the slaves, so that it could get into action when a. the lions are small enough to turn them to roadkill and b. the dragon starts his backline rampage...

On HPAs: I do not have the tables for HPA CC present but as far as I remember, HPAs very rarely attack in close combat. They have impact hits, they have monsterous thunderstomp and on 4 out of 6 results they simply produce more hits (1-2 ini test or lose d3 wounds to all models in contact, 3-4 2d6 hits 5-6 3d6 attacks). But even if your opponent played the 3d6 attacks like hits, the HPA would probably have eaten them archer boys for dinner. It was very polite of you to even serve the A3 archer unit as a starter ;)

Power scrolls should not be used at the start of the magic phase imho, especially if you have spells like scorch available, which will drain dispell pools quite rapidly.

I think the questionable movement phases of the plague monks can be perhaps explained by his need to shield off the slave bunker against the dragon or his unwillingness to let them run on the eastern flank. But for what they did (or did not), a mere unit of clanrats with shields would perhaps have been better, but that is a problem of the rather tame list…

About your last turn: As the additionl 13th-unit is not visible on the diagramm, it is hard to say, but I guess you had no valid charge on the grey seer with your DPs, a second charge from the dragon and you would have perhaps had a better chance to chase the seer from the table. The fact that you lost all of your DPs in the last round of shooting is more than just bad luck. The chances to kill 3 models, protected by 2+ amorsaves, with 20 poisoned shots hitting on 5+ is almost none-existant. (according to my maths, he should have scored 5 wounds, that’s 1 or perhaps 2 dead DPs at best)

Was this victory well deserved?

Well, for sure. As I have already said I think your opponents list was quite sub-par for skaven, he did some strange things with his units. I cannot understand why he was so eager to get into a CC with white lions whos flanks were protected by terrain. The early demise of both the doomwheel and the WLC gave your dragon a free ticket to kill-kill-kill-rampage and I am not sure if you really used it to its full potential (was the prince wounded so badly?, Did the WLs really need his help against the stormvermin?). In a tourney, you would perhaps had to be forced to charge the dragon into the slave bunker to score a bigger victory. Nonetheless, the sheer fact that the prince still lifes to tell the tale is success enough.
Matchwinner (or loser) clearly were the gutter runners. They did what they were taken for (killing eagles) with disturbing ease and in fact both survived the game (something my ninja rats almost never manage, they are so expensive and so easy to kill). The death of the DPs was just icing on the cake.
Due to a tame list and very close results I would not rate this victory among the best 10 ever achieved in the history of table top gaming, but as I said befor, I have never seen a HE army win against a skaven army and that alone is worth some applause.

Completely off topic: Is Trondheim heigh enough up in the north so you get this infamous 18-hours night per day?


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