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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@John Rainbow - it actually doesn't come with a base but the resin tree is almost exactly 50x50mm :)

@HERO - viewtopic.php?f=66&t=37604


Thanks for the link.
Looking over the restrictions, it looks like you made a good choice going for the oddball Star Dragon. It also appears that you can't take magic-heavy High Elves either...

What does your club look like for the most part? Is everyone happy with these restrictions?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:39 am 
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I'm going to play the Star Dragon throughout the entire year, but we'll see what kind of tourneys I'll attend. This league had a comp inspired by ETC and tailored according to our understanding of balance. In general it is well received but it will be revised before a second round.

I got a PM from Paricidas asking me a couple of questions about fielding a Dragon, which I would like to address as I believe they're essential to understanding how I play and how these kinds of lists can work:

Paricidas wrote:
Dear Curu,

After around one hundred lost games I just considered to include a prince on a dragon in my army. As I have absoluty no idea how to make such an army work, I thought you would be the right guy I could harras with my noob questions.

here some things that are taken as carved in stone in my gaming area:

-Dragons make good players better and bad players worse: Is this statement in your opinion true? If so, as I am mostly fighting people that have won more tourneys than I have played games, does playing a dragon makes any sence at all for me?

-Anyone who cares to deploy characters without LoS! that enter the battlefield without a 2+ ward from the charmed(?) shield will be laughed from the table. Judging from your army list, you have very different experiences, plz explain.

-Dragons are so expensive that the loss of this model will always result in loss of the game. It is better to park a dragon behind a mountain for six rounds than to risk its loss via cannons. From a points-denial-point of view I can understand that, but eeeehm...

Some additional questions:

Why does your prince have Talisman of Loec? Would not the other tricksters shard do more for you, as it also grants rerollable wardsaves for the dragon?

Is str 6 really enough? In my experience, a prince on food with a twohanded weapon often has a hard time to kill anything… Do the additional dragon attacks really up the damage output so much that you can kill a toughness 5, AS 1+, 4+ wardsave model in a single turn?

Do the wardsaves from the prince also count for the dragon? I.e.: If a dwarfen flaming cannon fires at my dragon, does he get the 2+ wardsave from the riders dragon armor?

Do you use your dragon A. rather for wheeping the battlefield from small units (like charging and breaking a unit of 10 crossbowmen) or do you B. rather use it to support your infantery in the grind? If A., how to deal with champions (I would suggest death magic, but well…).

Do you have any additional tips regarding deployment or moving phase?

If you bother to answer some of these questions, thanks a lot

Pari


First of all, I haven't played anywhere close to 100 games. Aside from the reports in this thread, I only have a handful in 8th edition.

:: Do Dragons make good players better and bad players worse? ::

Long story short, yes I believe so. Basically, to capitalize on a Dragon, you need to think several turns ahead and be able to carry out a co-ordinated plan. A Dragon needs to maximise its mobility advantage and strike where its force matters the most. To achieve this, you need to be a good player. As opposed to this, bad players tend to find unfavourable combats, thinking that T6 3+ save and S7 can beat anything. In these cases, the Dragon tends to die in prolonged combats it should never have been in, or the rest of the army is annihilated while the Dragon is tarpitted.

:: Do characters with no possibility of Look out, Sir! need the Charmed Shield? ::

As mentioned previously in this thread, not too many armies sport cannons. Those who do, you can hide behind obstacles, buildings, rocks etc. There's almost always something of this around (unless the terrain is biased to a shooting army). I do see the point though, but any army will always have bad matchups. Though multi-cannon armies are bad matchups for Dragons, they're not impossible to win. I don't view any other things (e.g. Spells, Stone Throwers) as a serious threat, at least not more so than to any other things we can field.

:: Is a Dragon better off parking behind a rock for 6 turns against cannon-heavy armies? ::

I haven't played too many matchups like this. Ogres will outflank you at some point regardless if you do this, Empire and Dwarfs will get lucky sooner or later (a Dragon is usually visible behind anything but huge stuff so a direct hit causes trouble). It's kind of the same as the last point, try and find cover. Also set up your army so that it quickly threatens the battery. When you do get in combat - try and get in one which lasts for 2 rounds (this is optimal) as you're then spared the shooting and can charge again!

If you lose the Dragon early, I think it's just about impossible to win. However, if you play a very shooty list and lose it T3, I think you can still win because the rest of your army should be free of any major damage.

:: Why does Saerith have Talisman of Loec? Surely The Other Trickster's Shard is better? ::

Personally, I believe Loec is the best loadout for this character regardless of points. However, the fact is that he's currently 622 points - with the 'shard he'd be 627 -> too expensive for 2500 points unless you want to drop the Great Weapon for a Halberd. Loec allows you to engage the worst of the worst (remember, if you wound something with the Prince that something needs to re-roll successful saves from the Dragon's hits as well) but it also confers reliability - if you get caught in a bad charge and challenged out, hoping to beat you by combat resolution, you can activate loec to reliably win big (it of course depends). Also, key challenges from tough heroes are a great spot for Loec - kill them before they can hurt the Dragon (Exalted Heroes and Vampires spring to mind).

:: Is S6 enough for the Prince? ::

Having played quite a few games with a S7 cavalry Prince, I must say that I really miss that extra +1. However, I do not think it's possible to field this on a Dragonlord as his protection will simply be too weak. The extra stats from the Star Dragon - in particular WS, S and A, help out tremendously. As for taking out a T5, 1+/4++ - it'll be hard but Loec should help. If the 1+ is re-rollable, I'm not so sure... The question is - why would you consider this case at all? If a character is this hard to kill, then most of the time you're better off disregarding it, killing Rank and File instead ;)

:: What kind of protection does a Dragon gain from Dragon Armour? ::

Dragon Armour states explicitly that the wearer's mount also receives a 2+ ward against flaming attacks and breath weapons. Immensely helpful against your run-of-the-mill Dwarf army!

:: What role does the Dragon usually perform? ::

As I said before, my goal against shooty armies is to engage in combats that'll last for 2 rounds. If the Dragon faces no serious threats, I have the luxury and mobility to apply insane force (e.g. Dragon + BSB + White Lions) where I need it to crush anything. As you will see in my reports, I usually try and take on semi-hard threats first, to eliminate my opponent's support. This includes Hellcannon, Cauldron of Blood, Mournfang etc. Half the reason I have a flying BSB is because I want to be able to engage units like Black Guard, Swordmasters, Chaos Warriors (all these are usually ~15-20 strong) and win reliably: The BSB tanks the challenge and the Dragon murders the rest. This is how I deal with most champions and if I cannot do this, then I've done something wrong. Also note that my Dragon Princes AND White Lions include champions so that, unless my Dragon is completely alone, I always have someone to take away that annoying little bugger. Even my Archer Horde has a Champion ;) I don't think Death magic would work well with a Dragon, you simply can't spend enough points to get a good magical offense. Besides it's very unreliable. I'm very fond of the setup I'm currently running - a Level 2 High Mage with Annulian Crystal. For less than 200 points, I get 3 spells, of which at least 2 are almost always useful and pretty good magic defense. It's a real bargain!

As for deployment - it's fairly standard. If I'm the shootier one, I try a refused flank. If I face serious Dragon threats, I deploy it as close as I can (to get a good chance of getting off T2 charges). Between 3 Eagles and 2 smallish units of Archers, I have enough chaff so that shootier armies must commit before me, enabling this. As for getting a refused flank - use the Archer horde as a central anvil around which you can place the heavy hitters as you please.

Movement-wise, I find it hard to summarize how I think and how I play in a few words. Basically, it's all about applying force. You do NOT want fair fights, you want overwhelming fights - bringing as many of your points to bear as possible. For example, in my most recent game I charged 15 Chosen with the Dragon, BSB and Dragon Princes (more than 1k worth of points!). The Eagles allow me to do this with impunity, blocking off just about any enemy attempt at supporting. The Lion horde can go toe-to-toe with anything but Deathstars and come out on top. This is a reliability which isn't very common in High Elf armies and the mobility of the rest of the list means that they often will get favourable matchups (everything just happens so fast that the enemy can't respond to everything!).

If you want me to elaborate further on any of these points or if you have more questions, please go ahead and ask :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:10 am 
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Thanks a lot for the reply, I am looking forward to more battle reports to come, I wonder how the dragons movement phases will look when he faces cannons, terrorgheists or kamikazee catapults with manglers and fanatics.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Paricidas wrote:
Thanks a lot for the reply, I am looking forward to more battle reports to come, I wonder how the dragons movement phases will look when he faces cannons, terrorgheists or kamikazee catapults with manglers and fanatics.


I think this depends heavily on how many he has to face and what the terrain looks like.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:40 pm 
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@Paricidas - HERO's correct. Against a Terrorgheist I have the board control as my Archers are a real threat to it. Its attack has a very, very short range. Between flyers and shooting, I should be able to dictate the flow of battle. Manglers and fanatics - see the coming report against OnG ;) Cannons - against Empire and Dwarfs it's pretty much a no-brainer - get in combat and do it NOW! However, if there's some cover to use while advancing I'll usually go for it.

@HERO - you basically summarized my answers above ;)

So today I had a practice game scheduled against Orcs and Goblins. I was unsure about a lot of his choices since I haven't played OnG very much, but I was confident in my abilities to create proper matchups. Due to a couple of exceptional dice rolls, this game was over rather quickly so I had time for another! So it was that I finally got to play vs Dwarfs, fielding a laser-guided cannon, 2 laser-guided Stone Throwers and an Organ Gun, along with 2 big GW units and a Longbeards bunker!

I'll try and get both reports up before I go to bed so stay tuned :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:42 pm 
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First game of the night - Orcs and Goblins!

:: Pride & Arrogance ::

My list:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2498

His list:

Savage Orc Shaman, lvl 4, Shrunken Head
Night Goblin Shaman, lvl 2, dispel scroll
Black Orc BSB, 2+ armour save
Savage Orc Big Boss

37 Savage Orc Big 'Uns
30 Orc Boys
40 Night Goblins

5 Wolf Riders
6 Trolls
1 Wolf Chariot
1 Boar Chariot
1 Rock Lobber
1 Doom Diver

1 Pump Wagon
1 Arachanarok Spider
1 Mangler Squig

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I was very curious to play OnG again as it's an army I have little experience again. Indeed his list has a lot of support, which I usually struggle to deal with as I can't obliterate it at range nor block it (like I do with WoC's combat blocks) easily. Also I wasn't too keen om letting the Spider get in combat with Faeria at full strength, unsupported.

Rolling for magic gave me Courage and Flames, I swapped Courage for Shield. His level 4 got NEITHER Hand of Gork (move a unit 3D6", choose new facing) NOR Foot of Gork (bane of White Lions - S6 huge template). This was huge for me as his spells were thus mostly low priority. The chances of a level 4 wizard missing 2 key spells is insanely low, I believe it's less than 2%.

Deployment saw me get a few favourable matchups, and again my opponent's deployment fails to consider how powerful a central piece of terrain is for High Elves. I know from the get-go that the building will be huge for me:

Image

His 3 orc characters joined the savage-star. His Goblin Shaman went with the Night Goblins (change to Boys fairly early).

With my +2 to start I roll a '3' but he rolls a '6' and snatches first turn!

:: Orcs Turn 1 ::

He moves up cautiously and I can almost touch the Dragonfever. I don't care too much about this as I don't intend to commit anything - including the Dragon - until he's commited himself by moving up too close to the middle tower.

Magic is 7v6 and I dispel a damage spell targeting Saerith. This sees a Nightshroud bubble go up which doesn't worry me too much as I don't intend to shoot at his blocks.

Shooting sees the Rock Lobber target Faeria but it scatters off. The Doom Diver tries to target the Dragon, too, but misfires and he rolls a '1' so it's destroyed!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I move up slowly to get in position to do what I want. Now, I do intend to get the Lions into a decisive combat so that I can punch through his middle and overwhelm one flank - 'Eagling' the other. I realize that eagling frenzied Savage Orcs is way easier so I send the Eagles there, first. However, one Eagle charges the Pump Wagon. Since I know he'll do everything to kill the Dragon I move Olannon to the Archers (no need for Ironcurse Icon), taking care to be within 24" and forward arc for Flames on Savage Orcs.

Magic sees us get a 10v6 split. I start off with a 3D6 Drain. This might seem odd, but I want to tease him into dispelling with 4D6. This will allow me to cast Flames with 5D6 (forcing a scroll) and spend 2D6 on Shield - getting a decent chance at getting it off. Since I intend to cast lots of dice at flames anyway it doesn't matter if Drain is first and the last spell (Shield) is still only 8+ on 2D6 and he has 2D6 +4 to dispel. Anyways, he doesn't dispel Drain at all so I follow up with 6D6 Flames. A reasonably strong cast (value 24 after bonus) sees him NOT scroll it but instead try and dispel - which he fails by 2! 8 Savage Orcs die and his lvl 4 takes a wound!

Shooting fails to impress his Mangler and I know it'll be a problem.

The Eagle kills the Pump Wagon (unstable helping out greatly) and overruns out of the Spider's arc. Perfect!

Image

:: Orcs Turn 2 ::

He commits his central blocks and the Savage Orcs start their long path around the building. The mangler moves up toward the Dragon Princes, spider following close behind (taking care not to be in Lions' front arc). His Wolf Riders charge Olannon's bunker. Stand and Shoot fails to impress them, sadly.

Magic is 6v5 and he starts off with a 3D6 flames dispel which succeeds. The rest 3 fail to cast due to Drain.

Shooting again sees the Lobber target Faeria but it scatters off. His Wolf Chariot's 4 bows open up on a Great Eagle - needing 7+ to hit but still scoring 2W!

Combat sees me kill all but 1 Wolf Rider and the last one fails to hurt Olannon. Annoyingly enough he passes break test on double '1's, denying me the ability to move this unit anywhere.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I charge his central Night Goblins with White Lions + Naenor (11" and 17" respectively), blocking the Boys off with an Eagle. The other Eagles both head for the Rock Lobber but I intend to use one of them for entirely different purposes. For now though, I'm happy with being away from his surprisingly accurate goblins. The Dragon Princes realize they did a huge mistake in my T1 as they wheeled a bit for arc purposes - since they're on the edge of the board this means I cannot back them off (as you must move directly backwards). A stupid mistake on my part, I reform them instead. The 14 Archers move up to deny the Spider a charge at Olannon and his unit. Saerith moves behind his lines to have a plethora of charge options in my T3.

Magic is 4v3 and he scrolls Flames.

Shooting again does very little.

Combat sees the Lions kill a lot of Goblins but they hold on Steadfast. The last wolf rider is killed.

Image

:: Orcs Turn 3 ::

His Trolls charge the Lions, although he knows they have flaming attacks he's trying to win this crucial, central combat. Mangler kills 2 DP (lucky me!!), Spider moves up to charge Olannon and Archers in his T4.

Magic is 7v6. I dispel a combat hex targeting my Lions (re-roll all '6's) which allows him to put up a Nightshroud bubble.

Shooting finally sees his Rock Lobber hit Faeria - taking 3W off her!

Combat sees me Lions perform admirably - killing 3 Trolls before they get to strike and quite a few Goblins. He kills a few in return but loses badly and both units break. I catch the Goblins but not the Trolls. I'm not too worried as they're LD4. His Boys kill my blocking Eagle with ease.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Despite of Nightshroud on his Boys, I declare a quadruple-charge (WL and Saerith being guaranteed, Archers 9" away and DP 17"). All make it but the dangerous terrain tests kill 4 Lions, 3 Archers. One Eagle charges his Rock Lobber, the other moves to block his Savage Orcs. Since they're frenzied they'll be forced to overrun into the building - effectively taking away 2 turns worth of movement! Having played extensively against Khorne Warriors lately I know how bad frenzy can be sometimes when it comes to being redirected. Naenor moves to interrupt his Western flank, if need be.

Magic is 5v4 but a terrible roll of Flames on his Savage Orcs sees him easily dispel it. Shooting again does next to nothing.

Combat sees my Eagle kill his Rock Lobber and his Boys are badly beaten (I think I caused something like 20W). I pursue with just the Dragon Princes, reforming the rest to face his Spider.

Image

:: Orcs Turn 4 ::

His Spider charges the 10 Archers, the Savage Orcs charge the Eagle. The Trolls miraculously rally! His Wolf Chariot charges 30 Archers but S&S kills it!

Magic sees him manage to snipe Olannon (I am powerless to dispel) with 6v5 dice, scoring a '5' for D3 wounds.

Combat sees his Spider + Crew kill 4 Archers before thunderstomp. He rolls a '1' however and I'm still steadfast! Rolling my test, I get a '5' and a '3'! Amazing! The Savage Orcs finish off the Eagle but stumble forward, stopping 1" away from the building and feeling very dumb.

Image

With my entire army about to charge his Spider in the rear and the hopeless situation on the Western flank, he condeded the game at this point.

:: Victory Points ::

A massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

For sure, a lot of things went wrong for my opponent. First, missing both Hand of Gork and Foot of Gork was huge as it allowed me to easily control his magic potential. His miserable rolls with the mangler vs DP, Doom Diver misfiring, Spider failing to break my steadfast (had it gotten into the big archers it might've been interesting!) made things very, very hard for him (not to mention failing to get either of the 2 best spells!). As always, there's a dozen 'what if' scenarios one could go through, but the general point here is that it denied him a fighting chance.

With his commit to the centre and the Savage Orcs splitting up, it was easy for me to utilize my mobility to its full potential and follow through with my plan. The shooting did fairly little but the Archers most certainly did enough!

I was particularly pleased with Olannon this game. The rest of the army mostly did what they usually do (a fully strong 30-man WL unit WILL rape most things in combat) but magic on a budget and my magical defense were perfect this game!

C&C welcome ;)

other report coming up very soon...

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:51 am 
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Second game of the Night - Dwarfs!

:: By My Axe! ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

His list:

Runelord. Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Stone, Rune of the Furnace, Shield. 228

Thane. BSB, Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Fire. 120

Thane. Master Rune of Challenge, Rune of Brotherhood, Rune of Stone, Shield. 117



40 Dwarf Warriors. Great weapons, full command.

30 Longbeards. Full command, shields, Master Rune of Grugni. 435

20 Rangers. Musician. 225



Canon. Rune of Forging. 125

Grudge Thrower. Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetration. 130

Grudge Thrower. Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetration, Rune of Burning. 135

34 Hammerers. Full command. 438

Organ Gun 120

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I rolled 1, 4 for magic. I didn't really care too much as his massive defense would mostly mean that I could cast Shield or nothing useful at all, however Vaul's would've been nice!

We had a friend set up the terrain and he decided to make a rather un-orthodox table (the result which I believe favoured the Dwarfs). The Dwarf player won the roll to choose sides (not that it mattered too much) and had to deploy first. Everything was pretty obvious, apart from my small Archers (who were placed awkwardly to guard against his scouts since I knew he had the master rune of 'siren song'. He ended up placing the scouts as flank protectors.

Image

His Runelord went with the Hammerers, BSB with Longbeards and 'Siren Songer' with Scouts.

With +2 to start I promptly rolled a '6' and took first turn.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Full speed ahead! I took care to be just a little over 12" away from his combat blocks, to make charges unlikely and combo-charges nigh impossible. Saerith also blocked the Horde from Naenor as they were 8" wide. I placed an Eagle to block both the Lion's and the Prince's from charging his Siren Song scouts.

Magic was 5v8 and he dispelled a Shield attempt on Saerith.

Shooting was non-existant as everything marched.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 1 ::

No movement on his part, so straight to shooting!

Laser-cannon opens up with a misfire but a re-roll sees him hit the Dragon. Faeria only loses 1W though and Saerith saves with the Vambraces! Looking good...

His non-flaming Stone Thrower follows up, showing me that it's laser-guided to by landing a hit. Faeria receives the big one and is wounded. Rolling the dice for wounds, he comes up with a '6' and she dies.

To make matters worse, his Organ Gun follows up by targeting Naenor. It misfires as well but is allowed a re-roll on its first shot and he promptly scores 10 hits, which kills the noble Elf AND panics Saerith who flees through 2 Eagles (who pass their tests, luckily).

I'm not entirely sure what his 2nd Stone Thrower did but it had no effect. He seemed to recall in T2 that he simply forgot to fire it amid the ecstacy of killing both my flying characters.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Not one to give up easily I quickly realize that to win this the Lions must go completely berserk. I march them up very aggressively. However, I need to disrupt his perfect placement so I place an Eagle to 'block' his Longbeards from charging the Lions. Another Eagle flies up in his Cannon's face (I didn't dare the 19-20" charge) while all Archers march up (the last Eagle was siren song'd but fled, leaving my DP to do as they please). Saerith rallies.

Magic is 6v8 and I throw it all at Shield on the Lions and get IF! The result is a '4' but Olannon escapes the void and instead takes a wound, killing a handful of archers in the process. I duly pass panic.

Shooting is again non-existant as everything marched.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 2 ::

Remember the blocking Eagle? He declares a charge and I flee! He seems puzzled as to why I did this but realize that it doesn't matter whether one or two units make it into the Lions - they will kill a LOT anyway and as long as they're both in my front it doesn't matter too much. He needs to roll 10+ to catch the Eagle (and thus also overrun into the Lions) which he fails to do. I pass panic with Lions. However, the damage is done and his formation is now disrupted. Also, the Longbeards are 13" away from Saerith, allowing me at least a chance at doing something useful this game. The Hammerers move to try and mitigate the situation while his scouts move to flank protect better. Due to his movement, my only viable charge is against his Hammerers.

Shooting sees him blast the Eagle to smitheerens with his Organ Gun (10 hits...). His cannon targets a Great Eagle. His one thrower with LoS to the Lions rolls a scatter of '8'. As it lands perfectly on my Archers, he doesn't dare to re-roll it (3+ save and 5+ ward on Lions anyway) in case it'll bounce off everything. A handful of archers die. The other also targets Archers and kill some more. Panic tests are passed, many thanks to Saerith being alive.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I declare the charge with the Lions against the Hammerers. Saerith declares the 13" charge on the Longbeards and makes it! I realize that the Lions need to win big and fast so I move up Olannon as an Eagle to block his Scouts, making sure an overrun takes them into no-where where I can counter-charge massively. It's a thankless situation to be in but the Lions are my only hope now. The Dragon Princes and small Archers set up against the Scouts. The Eagle rallies.

Magic is 5v8. I throw it all at Shield, thinking that if I miscast and die the Lions have a 5+ ward which should help if the scouts thus get a flank-charge. I do not get IF, however my roll is quite high! He rolls miserably and fails to dispel!

Shooting - I forget about the few shots I have, being very eager to get in combat.

Combat sees his champion challenge Saerith. I kill him twice and pass my break test (I had 3 CR vs his 3 ranks + banner + bsb). The Lions go to town and when they're done, 18 (!) Hammerers are dead. His 12 return attacks score only 1(!!!) hit and one poor Guardian bites the dust. His Runelord fails to get by Shield of Saphery.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 3 ::

His scouts charge Olannon and that's about it as far as movement's concerned.

Shooting kills more archers (no more good targets) and puts a wound on an Eagle.

Combat - I declare Loec and kill his BSB. Again, I pass my break test (just barely!). The Lions manage to JUST kill off the remaining Hammerers, leaving the Runelord trying to roll insane courage, which he fails to do, despite the re-roll from the BSB (combats were resolved opposite of how I posted now). I pursue but fail to catch him - regardless he ran off the table. Olannon kills a scout but dies in return, he reforms to defend the flank.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Lions charge the nearest war machine (a Stone Thrower). DP go back to get out of Scouts' charge range. At this point I'm happy to play cat and mouse, leaving my Lions alone. The last Eagle moves to behind the hill, out of LoS from the cannon.

Shooting sees everything open up on his Scouts - killing no less than 7 after a few good rolls! He passes panic.

Combat sees Saerith kill a couple again and pass his break test! The Lions easily kill the War Machine and reform to the flank of the Longbeards.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 4 ::

Scouts move in to totally block my Dragon Princes (there's no escape now, however I'm not worried!).

Shooting - a few more Archers bite the dust, the 14-man unit now completely gone. Panic tests are passed!

Combat - Saerith kills 3 more Longbeards but rolls a double '6' for his break test! I flee too far from the Longbeards to follow though.

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:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Lions flank the Longbeards. Dragon Princes front-charge the GW scouts while Archers flank them. 'They're only S3' he said. I don't care about their power, I just want to break his steadfast ;) Saerith rallies but the Archers are too far away to screen him. I move my last Eagle to block the Warriors' from doing something fancy.

Shooting puts a wound on his Organ Gun crew.

Combat - DP and Archers win big and he flees. I chase with both, the Archers catching him! Lions again go to town and murder his Longbeards - the remaining handful are run down.

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:: Dwarfs Turn 5 ::

He elects to back his Warriors. We do a quick calculation of victory points here and I'm ahead by a BIG margin. He needs to kill off a LOT to even be close. However, last turn's event saw his Organ Gun having a clear line of sight to Saerith...

Shooting - a cannonball sees the Drakemaster remain as the only one alive. The Stone Thrower fails to hurt anything.

The big moment comes up as his Organ Gun targets the Elf Prince. It scores 6 hits, which can go both ways! However, all 6 wound and I'm looking at 5+re-rollable followed by a 4+ ward. As my first 6 saves ALL fail, I know I'm in trouble. The second sees me save 2, leaving me with the Vambraces having to save 3. The first 3 dice dramatically come down '4', '4', '1' while the last is still spinning for what seems like an eternity... No help in this however, as it turns up a '3' and thus nets him 722 victory points!

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:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

At this point I re-calculate the points and figure that I'm still ahead by a comfortable margin, despite the Drakemaster dying. Now, having lost the Dragon T1 I really want to just win this game, so I elect to keep the Lions back (40 Warriors vs 25 Lions should see me win as I hit on 3+ re-rollable, however I just don't want to take that risk!). The Eagle however charges his Cannon.

Shooting sees me manage to kill off his Organ Gun!

Combat - the Eagle scores 1W for none in return but he holds.

Image

:: Dwarfs Turn 6 ::

He decides not to make a last ditch attempt at charging with his Warriors (it's late and we both want to go home, besides the chance of them winning against the Lions, breaking them and catching them in 1 round of combat is insanely small) so the last turn sees his flaming Laser-guided Stone Thrower target my Drakemaster. He hits, wounds, and I promptly fail my 2+ ward save, netting him another 200 points. I'm not worried though as I've already calculated this AND got the Organ Gun last turn.

The Eagle fails to kill off both crew members and the game ends!

:: Victory Points ::

He had just short of 700 points left on the table, I had just over 1000. Both BSBs and Generals were dead but I had 2 more banners than him. A comfortable margin, and thus a win to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Where to begin! Some very important rolls were definitely crucial in this game, however let's leave those aside for a moment and look at the tactics first:

My moving up T1 could probably not have been done a lot better. I'm not sure about the range of his Organ Gun but I'm pretty sure that Naenor could not have been on the hill (and thus had LoS) while being outside of its arc. Basically, T1 was fairly obvious. Had the flyers not died, I would've had a plethora of options in my T2 since all the Eagles were in so good positions!

Turn 2 saw me pull off a trick which worked admirably - the Eagle 'blocking' his Longbeards accomplished everything I could wish for! When I fled his charge, it was clear that he hadn't anticipated this nor thought about what it would imply. As it turned out, it was a real game-changer, allowing Saerith to gain 4" (from 17 -> 13) on them and thus get into combat. Also, the cat and mouse game between the Dragon Princes, Archers and his scouts started here and I believe my decisions at this early point were crucial to my eventual victory as I managed to predict his future moves and counter them - even before he made them (think of it like winning at chess late-game - sometimes you can win despite your opponent only making optimal moves!).

Turn 3 saw a necessary sacrifice of Olannon and a risky move from Saerith allow the Lions a perfect fight. Though the Lions were undoubtably the Elves of the match here (hence the title!), Saerith really put up a stellar performance - keeping the Longbeards at bay for a long time, even killing off his BSB before finally fleeing!

A note about his Warriors - they were extremely poorly placed relative to the Longbeards fail-charging up 4" and the Horde formation. He made a conscious decision early on to let them stay still. Though this might not have been the optimal move, and most certainly looks weird in the report, just imagine how much I could've blocked-fled with the big archers, not to mention the fact that it would've taken him forever with 6" marches to wheel that huge unit around to someplace useful.

Lastly I want to address some of the crucial rolls in this game. In no particular order, they were as follows:
- getting first turn
- stone thrower getting a '6' for wounds on Faeria
- Organ Gun getting 10 hits on Naenor (he only had 3 unsaved wounds when all was accounted for) and Saerith failing his sub-sequent LD10 panic test
- Saerith making a 13" charge
- Stone Thrower scattering 8" (though my Lions had a 5+ ward and 3+ armour save at this point)
- Saerith making a number of 8- and 9- break tests, holding out JUST long enough

Playing lists like this - where single events like a Dragon dying/surviving can hugely impact the game - these things are bound to happen! I don't like playing a high-variance game like this but I do believe that Dwarfs are a poor matchup for us anyway and this list changes other matchups from bad to managable or even favourable. As I just showed in this game, it's entirely possible to pull off a win despite of losing the Dragon T1. My list has the tools for it, and I do not believe that luck played a big factor here as the rolls were, in my opinion, fairly evenly distributed (you should SEE his accuracy rolls).

PS - shoutout to Brewmaster_D for convincing me to try Archers (I may have done this before!) ;) Even against Dwarfs I think they performed admirably - reducing the Rangers and killing the Organ Gun did more than I think Spears ever could've (bearing in mind how accurate his artillery was).

C&C welcome, as always :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:44 am 
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An Organ Gun cannot re-roll a misfire. It can re-roll a number, and a misfire on the re-roll is just 0 shots, but if the first roll is a misfire, it misfires.

It didn't matter here, but remember that if you catch a unit that flees from a charge, you don't move anymore. No "overrun" of a fleeing unit and continuing into another unit. So when your Eagle fled his Longbeards on turn 2, they either redirect into the Lions (and roll enough), or they cannot get in combat with the Lions that turn. If they stayed on the Eagle and rolled double 6s, they move to where the Eagle was after fleeing, killing it automatically, and then can pass a leadership test to reform. But given that you have the Eagle fleeing beyond he archers, the Eagle was untouchable by the charge anyway, so I find your comments on that bit confusing.

I don't understand why he charged that Eagle on turn 2. I feel like all he needs is to ensure two of his units fight the White Lions at once, and if he backs up, I don't think you can prevent that.

I feel he mis-used his challenge thain. He fell into the trap of "normally" deploying him with the scouts, when he makes a much bigger difference, at least in this game, in a main combat unit. Or, perhaps even better, BEHIND a combat block, so he can force Saerith to make a double 6s charge that he probably fails, and could give him another shooting round at the dragon. Or drag Naenor into a combat block. Leaving the awesome MRoChallenge out on the flank greatly reduced its value.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:42 am 
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I looked up the Organ Gun and indeed you're right.

Regarding overruns/fleeing a charge: the way we've always played it is as follows - the fleeing unit is moved first according to its roll. If the charging unit catches it, it's placed where the fleeing unit ended up. If this indeed brings it into contact with another enemy then this counts as a charge. I might have to re-read these parts as I understand your logic clearly. Can you point me to the specific pages detailing this?

As for denying me Lions fighting alone - how do you see him preventing this by moving back? I can still keep blocking his Longbeards - besides by moving his Hammerers back I can wheel out and kill his scouts instead, combo-charging with the Princes while I'm at it. Remember that if you move back you can't change facing at all so this would be a very awkward spot for him.

As for Master Rune of Challenge - he did consider where to deploy him for quite some time. I'm not sure what the Dwarf consensus is on using this trick vs armies like mine but I can definitely see a lot of opportunities.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:04 am 
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With such a commanding lead, I'm not sure how the Dwarf player lost. You're right, amid the estacy, I think he forgot to Siren Song your White Lions towards his scouts to buy another round of shooting. I think he just got really confused about target priority and threat analysis. After the Dragon died, he should of immediately re-evaluated the battlefield and noticed the next biggest threat: The White Lions. More experience and knowledge about the White Lions should of told him to concentrate all efforts into killing that unit. And the Hammerers whiffing all their attacks must of been horrendous. How do you roll 12 dice and score only 1 4. That's so... terrible.

Some minor rules blunders on his part, but overall pretty good. I think the flying circus list you have here put a lot of players with giant WTF!s over their heads. Metabreaker, mind blown.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:11 am 
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He could not force my lions to charge the scouts because the Eagle was blocking their way. I am not sure what more he could have done about the Lions given his deployment. As for his Hammerers, it was pretty insane to look at his rolls! Sort of like the opposite you expect from Daemon players ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Hey Curu,

I play my friend who plays lizardmen just about every week and we have learned that he basically has to take a suped up slann for our matches to be competitive. However, this leads me to basically always take a suped up archmage build in fear of being blown away in the magic phase. Needless to say this has gotten extremely boring. I've been ghosting on your army blog for a while and your list looked like a lot of fun to use and it had been a while since I had brought out my dragon. So, I put together a list inspired by yours. I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your blog. It has given me a lot of inspiration. I'm really impressed with how the build plays I got the star dragon stuck in a toughness 10 ancient steg swamp (beefed up flesh of stone) for the first three turns and the army as a whole was still versatile enough to last without his presence until he finally broke free. Anyways, great build!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:05 pm 
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By the way, how wide were the non-warrior units? The Hammerer block looks wider than the Longbeards in your drawings. Is that correct, or just me mis-reading?

How did the second Eagle die? One Eagle died to a point blank Organ Gun 10. At the end of your turn 2, 2 Eagles are in your rear area, having fled. The next picture only one is there.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Regarding overruns/fleeing a charge: the way we've always played it is as follows - the fleeing unit is moved first according to its roll. If the charging unit catches it, it's placed where the fleeing unit ended up. If this indeed brings it into contact with another enemy then this counts as a charge.
If you catch a fleeing enemy unit, you align to that unit, then remove that unit. Page 23.
I don't see text indicating the underlined portion, at least not exactly. To charge multiple targets with one charger, it must be impossble to contact the initial target without also touching the second target. You have to charge both at once. Page 18.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for denying me Lions fighting alone - how do you see him preventing this by moving back? I can still keep blocking his Longbeards
He shoots the Eagle. Or maybe move the scouts up to maybe block the White Lions.

Curu Olannon wrote:
- besides by moving his Hammerers back I can wheel out and kill his scouts instead, combo-charging with the Princes while I'm at it.
Who cares if you kill the scouts? They aren't worth extreme amounts of points, and they are out on the flank. If you kill them, he gets another turn to shoot you (after you kill the scouts), and lets his warrior horde go kill the big archer unit.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for Master Rune of Challenge - he did consider where to deploy him for quite some time.
The reality is I think size 20 Dwarf units, especially with great weapons (except maybe Stubborn Hammerers), are terrible. That is coloring my attitude. Putting MRoChallenge in them is much worse, because they aren't powerful enough to kill the stuff that matters, so it can only be used to create failed charges. Secondly, given your deployment, the flank position was never going to be able to pull at the flying characters, which eliminated the big value of the rune.

50 Longbeard Rangers with MRoChallenge is a potentially devastating unit, as Brewmaster almost discovered, but at size 40 even that got crushed when left by itself against the entire enemy army.



Don't get me wrong, despite my criticism of your opponent, I am still super impressed you won this game. Sacrificing Olannon was brilliant, and you did just enough cat and mouse with the scouts to obliterate them for minor loss. Prince Saerith got *just* lucky enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:09 pm 
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@ducky11 - a fully equipped Slann is no joke! If your opponent takes Life magic, then you definitely don't want to get stuck in combat as he can pretty much keep you there for as long as he pleases. As for not being blasted away in the magic phase - with my list there really is no safety against this. With that being said, the only difference between my defense and a typical HE Archmage defense is +5/+3 to dispel. In addition, I have Drain Magic, which Slann really hates.

Also, the mobility of such a list means that it's easier to avoid prolonging combats: consider that your Dragon + BSB has 2+ lucrative charge opportunities. Now, even if you fail to dispel anything, he can at best Flesh to Stone only one of them! Also, I find that much of the problem with Lizardmen is their amazing chaff which forces you to play their game - something nobody wants to do! Needless to say, flyers really help here :)

It's good to know that people find inspiration from my games. It is no secret that I spend a LOT more time analyzing, writing, thinking and debating Warhammer than I actually spend playing the game. I do believe that this is a key thing to do if you want to improve though. With regards to these points, this forum has given me so much over the years (I was mostly lurking for years, even though I had an account) so now I'm glad I can contribute as well. Additionally, I find that by simply writing up these reports I approach my decisions and the game in another way, clearing my mind and helping me see things in a different light. Add to that the fact that I get a lot of great feedback here and that I can go back and later review my games and I think it's well worth the effort ;)

@dabber - the Longbeards were 5-wide, Hammerers 6-wide, Scouts 7-wide, Warriors 10-wide (of course). In my opinion, big mistake on the Hammerers not having them 3-wide (which is the minimum allowed as per our league rules) since they're stubborn anyway but it's not like I'm going to point that out during the game ;)

I do seem to remember his cannon killing an Eagle, which was basically his best target (he didn't rate the DP much).

Thanks for pointing out the part about fleeing units. I think I understand how it's supposed to work now. We've been playing it much more similar to how it is when you break and flee from combat - if you roll high enough you catch the fleers regardless of intervening terrain etc. I see now that this is not the case with a flee charge reaction because if the flight takes you behind a friendly unit the charge cannot be completed (regardless of dice roll, assuming it's not a flyer etc). This in fact makes Eagles even better (as if they needed it!) in my opinion as a few more options open up.

If he shoots the Eagle blocking the Longbeards, he has to use something else than the cannon. This also means I will get my Lions into the Hammerers for 1 turn, unsupported. I don't think it would've been possible to use the scouts for blocking, they were quite far away relative to having 3" move. Wheels would've been impossible I think and shuffling doesn't allow you to change facing. In round 2 he could've flanked the Lions on both sides but most likely he would've lost combat still (flank + charge + banner + 2 more ranks vs my ~20 casualties (remember - this would've allowed more models to fight for me as the horde wasn't fully engaged) minus whatever he may have killed) and those 2 units weren't stubborn.

As for him sacrificing scouts - indeed he gets one more turn of shooting, however that allows my archers to flank his centre as well as my DP and Lions to co-ordinate. Yes, the shooting might've hurt. Regardless, I don't think this move was possible given the placement due to the threat of the Dragon Princes.

His experience with the 20 GW unit is that they'll draw out supporting units and obliterate them with ease - e.g. Inner Circle Knights, tough chariots, Chaos Knights etc. The unit is big enough to weather a charge and win and small enough to be expendable. I didn't want my DP going against them unsupported which slowed them down quite a bit. Indeed Brewmaster's game shows how nasty the same tactic with another unit can be!

By the way, I know perfectly well that your advice is very well meant ;) By showing me what he could've done better I'm better prepared for those times where my opponents make less mistakes - which will surely happen!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
He could not force my lions to charge the scouts because the Eagle was blocking their way. I am not sure what more he could have done about the Lions given his deployment. As for his Hammerers, it was pretty insane to look at his rolls! Sort of like the opposite you expect from Daemon players ;)


I meant this photo:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l200/ ... rd_fix.jpg

This one confused me on his next course of action :|

I mean, the scouts kinda just stood there and didn't relocate after his successful shooting and your movement of the Eagle (blocking his MRoChallenge). The movement on his units also puzzled me... why not move after the first round? If the Eagle is stopping successful movement and the opportunity to do something about those White Lions (the only real threat left on the battlefield), the ideal solution is to kill the Eagle. Basically just a bad allocation of resources after the 1st round.

Like you said, ecstatic after the successful round of shooting and not keeping his game focused on the wider game. A classic case of "when ahead, stay ahead" gone wrong.

Yeah, also, like dabber said: 20 man units of Dwarfs are just garbage unless Stubborn.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Ok, I'll try and explain. This was my turn 2. During my T1, I had moved the Eagle up to block the Lions' and the Princes' angle to the scouts, so that it would be impossible for either of them to declare a charge (without the Eagle doing so as well). As such, he could either declare the challenge rune OR leave it be. Had he left it, I would've placed the Eagle in his face, marching the DP far up with Archer support to combo-charge him in my T3. As it turned out, he decided to use the rune on the Eagle. I was sure I'd die so I fled instead. I think this was a decent decision on his part as the Eagle otherwise would've blocked the scouts, effectively obliterating them. Instead, the Eagle fled and his Scouts had some freedom to continue protecting the flank. Though they eventually failed at this, they DID keep the DP away from his machines. Also, it's very, very hard to think that far ahead. The only reason I managed to orchestrate the resulting double-charge so early was because I knew he wouldn't target the small archers (not even sure he ever could) and I know my movement very well (having played with DP extensively). Even then, there were lots of things that could go wrong.

In his T2, he charged the Eagle. I think that he thought that I intended (multi-tier poker mindset anyone?) to use the Eagle to simply prevent a dual-charge. In his mind, he had to charge it to kill it off and thus prevent a multi-turn block. I don't think he even considered that I could flee with it. When I did, he realized that I didn't care whether the Lions were dual-charged, I simply wanted those Longbeards OUT of formation (the average roll on a failed charge is 4.5" I believe, which gives Saerith a 12"/13" charge). As has been pointed out, he could've left it alone and tried to shoot it instead. However, due to the proximity of his own units the cannon stands next to no chance at hitting it, meaning he has to take the chance of either scattering his Stones on himself or spend the Organ Gun, none of which are guaranteed (by far!) to kill it. Also, another Eagle was threatening his artillery and he had to dedicate the Organ Gun to this one if he wanted to kill it.

As for his Scouts, I think he realized that there wasn't any other moves available with his Hammerers being so exposed: he either had to expose them to my Dragon Princes (to maybe try and help the middle in his T3) or stay still and protect the flank for as long as possible. I don't think the unit is garbage, I just think that this army is a poor matchup for it. With that being said, he's had some major success with it and is happy with their performance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
the Longbeards were 5-wide, Hammerers 6-wide, Scouts 7-wide
I firmly believe most infantry units should stick to 5 wide or 10 wide, and not in between. Multi-attack elite units (Chaos Warriors, some elves) are about the only things that go in between. The Hammerers going 6-wide gave you 3 extra attacks (that hit 75%) while he only gained 2 attacks (that hit 50%). Even fighting the dragon, there is no benefit in his attacks from 6-wide vs 5-wide.

Curu Olannon wrote:
We've been playing it much more similar to how it is when you break and flee from combat
That is the standard mistake - drawing comparison between fleeing a charge and fleeing from combat. They are completely separate concepts. Anytime you find yourself doing the same thing in both situations, you are likely doing it wrong. Extremely so if more than the basic 2 units are involved.

Curu Olannon wrote:
His experience with the 20 GW unit is that they'll draw out supporting units and obliterate them with ease - e.g. Inner Circle Knights, tough chariots, Chaos Knights etc. The unit is big enough to weather a charge and win and small enough to be expendable.
I guess I can see that in concept, but why not just drag those units into a big combat block?
I have no desire to field my Dwarfs in 8th edition because I've concluded there is one clear "best" list concept - basically Runelord, BSB, 3 big blocks of gw, war machines. That leaves maybe a couple hundred points of personalization factor, but spreading those points out is just as likely to make the list weaker as stronger. That list concept will not work all the time (especially with objectives), but everything I read says it works far far better than anything else. Over on Bugmans, Furgil has demonstrated that list works awesome. (of course, it might be that Furgil is just a good player, which he is).

Ouch, guess I'm in a bad mood today. Well now you know why I hate Dwarfs! Or maybe I just hate not being able to play Warhammer more than about once a month now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:46 pm 
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7th edition carry over on panic checks - Flee from the source of your panic.

In 8th edition - When you panic, you flee away from the nearest enemy model, regardless of the source of the panic.

I'm not sure what his western Warriors were doing turn 2. The Chronicler shows a charge, but the eagle was behind the unit, and the archers were definitely out of charge range. He should have shuffled them to face the center of the field, and gotten the flank charge on Saerith (adding flank to the combat.) The warriors outnumber the Longbeards, forcing Saerith to flee into the Lion fight, and the over-run brings in the necessary support for the second round of battle. He could have also declared a second challenge with the warrior champion to save his BSB.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:06 pm 
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@dabber - why go 5-wide when you want the combat to draw out to get support?

@Baeronvonbleat - Oh right another thing to remember! I didn't play much in 8th but both my opponent and onlooker (the one who setup the terrain) said it was directly away from the source. I will definitely remind him as this is pretty big for Dwarfs.

I do believe he tried a charge with his Warriors, although it may just have been a normal move. I was something like 12.5" away from him so he needed 10+, if I remember correctly (might've been more). The champion wouldn't have saved the BSB though as I killed him in the second round of combat - the Warriors would've met combat in the third round at the best and in that case I could've blocked-fled with the Archers. The huge size of the horde means they're very unwieldy.

EDIT: just talked with my opponent - Warriors tried to charge Lions T2 as they had a flank opportunity but they needed 9+ or 10+ to make it!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@ducky11 - a fully equipped Slann is no joke! If your opponent takes Life magic, then you definitely don't want to get stuck in combat as he can pretty much keep you there for as long as he pleases. As for not being blasted away in the magic phase - with my list there really is no safety against this. With that being said, the only difference between my defense and a typical HE Archmage defense is +5/+3 to dispel. In addition, I have Drain Magic, which Slann really hates.

Also, the mobility of such a list means that it's easier to avoid prolonging combats: consider that your Dragon + BSB has 2+ lucrative charge opportunities. Now, even if you fail to dispel anything, he can at best Flesh to Stone only one of them! Also, I find that much of the problem with Lizardmen is their amazing chaff which forces you to play their game - something nobody wants to do! Needless to say, flyers really help here :)

It's good to know that people find inspiration from my games. It is no secret that I spend a LOT more time analyzing, writing, thinking and debating Warhammer than I actually spend playing the game. I do believe that this is a key thing to do if you want to improve though. With regards to these points, this forum has given me so much over the years (I was mostly lurking for years, even though I had an account) so now I'm glad I can contribute as well. Additionally, I find that by simply writing up these reports I approach my decisions and the game in another way, clearing my mind and helping me see things in a different light. Add to that the fact that I get a lot of great feedback here and that I can go back and later review my games and I think it's well worth the effort ;)



Actually the 180 pt mage with high magic did wonders. I was able to get on average a spell off a turn ( thats with my opponent having both a slann and the engine of the gods) and most turns that spell was drain magic. I also was able to stop a spell a turn which meant that early on I stopped dweller and he would fail on one other spell due to drain magic, and once I killed the damn engine he was really only getting one spell off. I was amazed that while he did eventually pop a dweller that killed 15 of my 25 remaining WL it wasnt until turn 4 when I had his slann locked into a losing battle with a dragon in the rear, and two eagles on the flank. You were completely right, for 180 pts a level 2 with high magic does one hell of a job.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@dabber - why go 5-wide when you want the combat to draw out to get support?
3-wide makes sense as a reform turn 2, but I would not deploy that way. I was more making a point that 6-wide is purely bad here.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:09 pm 
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@ducky11 - I believe that Drain Magic and +3 combined with the Crystal is just as good - if not better - than a Lvl 4 with Crystal and another lore. The problem with High Magic is (at least) two-fold: do you dispel Shield or Drain? One will keep our elites more survivable while the other will really hurt offensive options. Add to that, if you have Flames you're looking at a Remains in Play spell as well!

Mostly when you dispel you throw one more dice than your opponent. Most people tend to use 3-4 dice/spells - in which case you'll throw 4/5 for dispelling which means that the difference between +3 and +5 is of less importance.

@dabber - agreed about 6 being sub-optimal! He couldn't reform without moving T1 though as his war machine was 1" behind him.

It's funny how the Dwarf battle has generated so much discussion! Beforehand, I would've thought that Dwarfs would be a much more 'easy-to-play-optimal' matchup than Orcs and Goblins. Of course, a lot of other factors matter here, which just goes to show how diverse this game can be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:35 pm 
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You made the Orc&Goblin game look easy. Greenskin magic is not exactly impressive, and without those two useful spells, he cannot exploit that possible weakness in your army. Combine that with the Doom Diver blowing up turn 1, leaving him nothing to take out Eagles, and the Mangler failing to wipe the DPs (2d6 S6 AP hits kills only 2?!?), and there does not seem to be much anyone could do on his side of the table.

The Dwarf discussion is because you lost the game on Dwarf turn 1, as his artillery hit before your fliers could do anything. Except you didn't lose. That isn't supposed to happen, so it must be analyzed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 pm 
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I agree, there was never a point in the OnG game that I felt your opopnent had the upper hand. The cluttered field really controlled his movement, and he didn't seem to have the damage to threaten anything.

The dwarven game was his to lose. He took out a fifth of your army in turn 1, and lost.

Looking at the match, his choice of sides and such seems odd. He left himself very little LOS for his eiege weapons. Were the stones in the middle of the field impassable? If so, his best starting position would be the lower right corner. It's open field to reach him, with a funnel point through the building, or wide open terrain to the west.

How thick was the forest? Could his cannon get LOS to the lions through it? Once Saerith and Naenor were dismounted/killed turn 1, I'd have focused down the white lions, as at full strength they're the greatest threat, but anything under full and he has a chance.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Great reports Curu although here I am trying to play games with my Tomb Kings and the more I read your reports the more I'm keen just to drop them and get back on the High Elves bandwagon! :)

Both great games and thank you so much for sharing them as they're always a pleasure to read and make me want to play High Elves every game.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:05 am 
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@dabber - I guess you're right, however I would've thought someone had something to say about the first game as well. I suppose that the other game just puts it in the shadow. Your comment made me laugh hard, despite of the fact that I'm all by myself. Consider yourself sigged ;)

@Baeronvonbleat - all stones were impassable. His LoS decision was a calculated one - he only wanted to shoot the big things, with a couple of possible angles to the Lions. This means my Archers couldn't shoot him back. We play size-based LoS and the system also have woods as always look-through. I don't think he could've taken that corner though because you lose steadfast in woods. I might've misunderstood which corner you meant, however I think he chose the best one as there was no cover for my Dragon and he could bubble up pretty well with LoS everywhere.

@Jimmy - although I encourage people to play what they want - regardless of book strength - I always prefer people choosing High Elves ;) I guess it's like meeting a stranger and discovering you both like the same book/movie/whatever ^^ Anyways, good to know you enjoyed them! Both games were highly enjoyable, though the Dwarf game was probably the best as my opponent was a really good sport and we had another guy watching for the first half, which encouraged some friendly chatter along the way.

A fairly innocent comment on Warseer made me think... Comment was roughly as follows: "what do your Dragon Princes usually do?" Now, that unit is almost 200 points. That might not sound like much to High Elves, but to put things in perspective, that's a decently sized unit of elites.

So I went back and looked over every game I've played with the Dragonlist. Though the Dragon Princes certainly have had their moments (chosen-charge being top of the list), I don't think they're the optimal choice for me. Granted, some points go straight to the Skeinsliver which I consider a must, however I still think there are better ways of doing things.

I then went to look for the battles where I've had problems. Disregarding the Ogre game (where I don't think any choice would've mattered at all), the very first game against Daemons and the most recent game against Dark Elves stand out. The main problem here has been that I simply do not have enough chopping power. As I've discussed previously, the rationale for fielding Dragon Princes instead of a third flying noble is their 11 attacks, compared to his 3. However, what if we could double those attacks?

oh no he didn't...

Enter one of High Elves' most hated/loved units:
14 Swordmasters
Deployed 2x7 these guys are strong enough to give most elites a run for their money and will cleave their way through basic infantry like nothing else. They sport a staggering 21 attacks if full strength, which usually hits at 3+ re-rollable. "But" you say, "twice of 11 is not 21! Is your math that much off Olannon?". Of course not, I still need that little item - which means I must take a Bladelord ;) Now I assume you haven't calculated the cost already, so let me just tell you straight away that this unit is exactly 52 points more expensive than the current Dragon Princes. Now, I've been growing very used to my Eagles, but at the very least it's an interesting thought (besides, plenty of people/comp rules aren't too happy with 5 flyers).

So, what are your thoughts on this? Are the DP an optimal unit for me or are there better configurations out there? If there are better choices, is this one of them? Why / why not?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:55 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
14 Swordmasters
Deployed 2x7 these guys are strong enough to give most elites a run for their money and will cleave their way through basic infantry like nothing else. They sport a staggering 21 attacks if full strength, which usually hits at 3+ re-rollable. "But" you say, "twice of 11 is not 21! Is your math that much off Olannon?". Of course not, I still need that little item - which means I must take a Bladelord ;) Now I assume you haven't calculated the cost already, so let me just tell you straight away that this unit is exactly 52 points more expensive than the current Dragon Princes. Now, I've been growing very used to my Eagles, but at the very least it's an interesting thought (besides, plenty of people/comp rules aren't too happy with 5 flyers).

So, what are your thoughts on this? Are the DP an optimal unit for me or are there better configurations out there? If there are better choices, is this one of them? Why / why not?


A useful thing about your current unit of dragon princes is that they are currently tough, and can provide a challenge for your dragon lord more readily (because they have the movement to keep up with him). The problem though is that they are kind of stuck between two worlds, the classic unit of 5 with a musician (160 pts) is probably as expensive as we elves are willing to get for a support/expendable unit.

But because you want/need skeinsliver, and the drakemaster offers another option to take challenges for your lord, the extra 35 points justifies everything, and I can still classify your Dragon Princes as an expendable support unit with plenty of threat. It might not be optimal, but your Dragon Princes seem to me as the perfect balance of utility, threat and expendability.

The 14 Swordmasters are very different from 5 dragon prince and an eagle. They won't be supporting your dragon, but are simply another threat by themselves. So your losing essentially 2 support/chaff units (albeit one is inefficient at this but has 11 S5 attacks on the charge) but you are getting that choppy power you crave.

On a final note, I would like to say that I have a great deal of paranoia when it comes to putting Banner of Eternal Flame on my main combat unit. Almost every army has a unit with Banner of Eternal Flame because of the universal hate on Hydra's and Hellpits and I have seen an increasing trend where people will try to exploit this:
They will buy a cheap hero and give him Dragonhelm or Dragonbane gem (and sometimes even give him crown of command) a 2+ ward Stubborn character that costs less than 150 points is exceedingly frustrating when he is tar-pitting your white lions.

It is also worth noting that your Dragon Princes can exploit this little loophole in Warhammer's current meta state.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:42 am 
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Whew! Nothing like a double header.

Let's start with the Orcs & Goblins game. Nothing too crazy here - Your opponent was faced with the standard 25mm base problem: Too much frontage, not enough enemies. It happens quite a bit in my local gaming group, and it always makes me chuckle. Some people just seem married to that 12" line, even if it means putting a huge point sink of a unit on the opposite side of a building.

I agree with the previous sentiments that this match has garnered less comments due to it being relatively straightforward. In fact, let me boil down the High Elf strategy for dealing with horde armies into a mathematical formula:

Great Eagles + Large Footprint units = 2000 points of High Elves vs. 1400 points of enemies

In this regard, you pulled it off spectacularly, keeping his deathstar completely out of the game. Still a great game, and a great read though!

Now the Dwarf game. Ahhh, Dwarves - I see you completed the critical first step to defeating Dwarves - get the first turn. Like so many said to me about my recent victory versus the Dwarves, imagine you didn't get first turn? I hate playing games where you have to seriously ask yourself this.

I think this match was a case of the even more dreaded "Reverse Dragon Fever". As has been already mentioned, he popped the Dragon first turn, and it seems like he forgot he had the rest of the game to play. Let's take the Warriors for example - you mention he made a conscious decision to not move them at the start of the game. Now I'm not positive what's going on on the second turn (is that actually a charge on your archers?), but I'm fairly certain with some musician reforming, he could have been in a position to threaten the approaching masses in the East.

After Turn 1, you effectively had one unit left that could win you the game - the White Lions. He then proceeded to do everything *but* deal with that one unit. On Turn 2, it even looks like he has a juicy flank shot on the lions with the cannon. That unit rapidly loses effectiveness with every casualty, and I feel like he failed to realize this. This cost him the game, and it cost him the game in a spectacular manner. Not only did you come back from a HUGE first turn deficit, you made it look easy. Now THAT'S scary ;)

Your redirects in this match were also absolutely brilliant. Poor little fellas have a tough enough time moving without your eagles and mages tripping them up :P

Keep up the good work Curu - every time I read your reports I get jealous that I don't get to fly a Dragon around in my own list!

Quote:
PS - shoutout to Brewmaster_D for convincing me to try Archers (I may have done this before!) ;) Even against Dwarfs I think they performed admirably - reducing the Rangers and killing the Organ Gun did more than I think Spears ever could've (bearing in mind how accurate his artillery was).


Aw shucks :oops:

I'm glad to see these guys are working out for you though! I'd have felt pretty stupid if I had pushed that hard for the change only to see it go down in smoke lol. I suppose that's the price of admission if you start offering up advice though.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:44 am 
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@Jaith - the fact that the Dragon Princes are tough is almost as much of a liability as it is an advantage, it instead makes people focus on my Lions - which I do not want. Also, Swordmasters have twice as many wounds per point and most things will focus the Dragon regardless.

As for supporting the Dragon, I do believe infantry can do this fairly well. If an army has any decent chaff to speak of, this'll easily deny the Dragon Princes a proper supporting role as well. What I usually do is tag-team him with the BSB - in this way he works without unit support.

Paranoia for Flame Banner duly noted. However, with my mobility, chaff and excellent chaff-clearing options, I doubt it'll be much of a problem.

@Brewmaster_D - agreed about 25mm armies! As for getting first turn, with +2 to getting it I'm fairly happy with my chances. Indeed there would be no point in playing had I not won the roll for first turn, assuming everything else had performed the same. This is part of the reason why I don't get why people play Dwarfs at all - they always end up relying on a few crucial dice rolls to win.

Reverse Dragon Fever, a.k.a. forgetting the power of the Lions: he only had 1 turn to shoot them. In this turn, 1 Stone Thrower lacked Line of Sight, as did his Organ Gun and Cannon. In other words, just a single war machine could target them. In addition, they sported a 3+ (reduced to 4+ vs his S4) armour save and 5+ ward. When he landed an 8" scatter perfectly on top of my Archers, he didn't dare re-roll it but rather took the 9 or so hits he got. Even if he'd have managed a hit, only a couple of lions would fall on average. It was mostly his deployment relative to my Lion movement that prevented him from focusing them. Of course, the odd terrain certainly helped (i.e. lack of hills in deployment zones).

By the way, his Warriors didn't try and charge my Archers but rather the Lions where I have the red arrow on them. I think they had a flank charge but needed to roll something like 9+/10+ which they failed to do.

I have a practice game tomorrow against Dark Reaper (who I've faced with his WoC a couple of times and DE once). Since I won't be facing Daemons in this round of the league, I believe I'll try out the Swordmaster unit approach. Daemons, especially ones with Greater Daemons, are still a hard matchup and Swordmasters can really shine here. However, the Flamers can really ruin their day and in addition, I have a feeling that I'll miss my third Eagle.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:09 am 
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Why take 14 Swordmasters and one less Eagle when you could take 10 Swordmasters and keep the Eagle?


In general, I don't really *like* your Dragon Prince unit for being too expensive. I think you need one or two fewer drops for Skeinsliver to really be worthwhile. BUT, given your desire for Skeinsliver, I think the DPs are the best choice.,


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