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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:07 am 
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wow, saved by the bell it seems ;)

first off, thanks for the report, always nice to have something fun to read while attempting to wake up on monday :)

i do agree you made some strange decisions throughout the game, which may have made it into the close fight it was.

some random thoughts:

the archers on the far left: while not really badly positioned, they could only help you by shooting some stuff, as nothing ever came their way, or was likely to come that way. while shooting is the main task for archers (it's in the name i guess:P), an important secondary task can be to help out in combat or as redirector. by positioning them that far from where the battle was going to be fought, you ruled out this option in your deployment phase.

the initial plan:
Quote:
The Lions were placed centrally as an anchor and protector and my flyers had lots of good targets.


i think this was a good plan. when i saw the deployment picture, my first thought was; stall his right flank (so your left), use the lions to anchor this flank and take out the right flank (or well, middle). as such, the right flank was not really the refused flank after all, as your fast flyers and dragonprinces could together take out all the targets over there, while your eagles, small archers and lions kept his heavy units busy. which were nicely delayed by terrain and eachothers presence...

however, after turn one, you decide to go for the cauldron (which is more on the left) and the witchelves. i agree about the witches, and the fact that you fail that charge is rather unlucky. but what i would have done in the case was probably:
use the bsb to charge the harpies; if they flee, redirect in the witches as your did now, then probabably join him with the dragon. If the harpies hold, throw your dragon into the spears, to get a combined charge on those. i agree you propably wouldnt destroy that unit in one go, but if you did, its an instant win (of that flank atleast) and if it takes 2 turns; he had nothing to support his spears with anyway.

this way you could still have used the lions as anchor, choose to move up the princes, or keep them in reserve (vs the flying hero and chariot)

reforms in T3:
Quote:
My reform with Saerith thus sees him face the RxB

as you said yourself, the dragon reform wasnt a great move, and if you DID want to threaten the RXB unit, at least face the dragon in a way that the CoK couldnt get out of its sight either (and thus had to respond). but facing the center was probably better indeed.

Quote:
The Lions caught the breaking Warriors and overran into the flying hero as well.


why did you not reform in this case? was it just because you forgot about the eagle combat? because a few fleeing darkelf spearmen could easily have been dealt with later, and by reforming the lions to face the corsairs, the might still have died, but at least they would have killed most of the corsairs as well.
and while catching the pegasus noble is nice, it wasnt such a big threat to your lions (in the flank) as the corsairs, so could've been ignored probably.

the chariot situation:
while it didnt really matter in the end, as you destroyed the chariot anyway, i agree moving forward in the first place wasnt necessary for your princes. but once he trapped you, a possible solution might have been; charge the harpies, then overrun, and then flee from the charge of the chariot. not ideal, and i dont know if this was possible in the real situation, but its sometimes a useful way of saving their noble asses.

shooting at an 1+ save noble
not really a good option, but maybe they didnt have other targets at the moment (blackguard? to free up the archer horde sooner?)

last turn retreat:
probably the safest option. but indeed the archer could have been positioned better. (i dont know your VP system, but if fleeing units dont yield VP, and option wouldve been to move up the board and just flee the charge?)
how many witches were left? wasnt it quite safe to run them down with the dragon, or were you out or RXB range now, and not if you did that?

/random thoughts out.


Ok thats it i think. still, congratz on the first win in the league, and thanks for the report :)

cheers,

J


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:49 pm 
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@Tiralya - maybe you're right, I did have a really nice start though. Mostly I believe it was the unfamiliar situation which caused me problems. Witch Elves had a fairly easy charge in T5, the diagram is just off.

@de kaasboer - the Archers on the far left were indeed poorly placed. I was so preoccupied with the hill that I forgot that his RxB had hard cover from them (due to building and our size rules). I didn't consider this but looking over the battle it's pretty clear that this was a sub-optimal place for them. As for getting the Cauldron - it was mostly because I wanted to get rid of KB straight away, plus he couldn't counter-charge me before at least 3 rounds of combat. I still believe this was a good plan, but I should've used my Eagles to better protect Naenor. As for the Lions overrunning into his hero - indeed I forgot about the Eagle combat. As for shooting the 1+ save hero with S2 bows, I just really wanted to bring him down to 1W or 2W at worst, but he passed his saves like no problem. Between 24 shots he stands a good chance at losing a wound, besides there were no other good targets. The Witch Elves - I indeed could've charged them with the Dragon, however this would expose me to his T6 shooting in open terrain, something I did not want to risk.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Report questions (I'm picky):
When did the Cold One Knight champion die?
Eastern Eagle ran off the table when he fled the Black Guard charge?
When the Corsairs charged the incredible Eagle on turn 2, had the Eagle died/fled, would the overrun have given the Corsair flank to the White Lions?
Still no use of Power of Darkness by the enemy? (editted - useless because of league rules)


Tactical thoughts:
I agree with your decision to go after the Cauldron when you did. The bad reform seems to be your only real mistake with Saerith. If you make a better reform then, you don't even notice the terrible saves earlier, as you charge into combat and should do fine. I don't like using the Breath weapon against 2+ saves, but I understand it at that point in the game.
Even if it would not have saved the DPs, I think charging the harpies was a better move there - at least you kill something before the DPs die. But charging the harpies and then fleeing the subsequent charges seem likely to work. If you hold after killing the harpies, fleeing the chariot likely takes you out of LOS from the Witch Elves, or vice-versa, and gives you decent odds of survival.

Why was Naenor not up a little further on turn 1? I feel like you need the option of sending both fliers into a single target, and by leaving him back several inches that is riskier. Super risky, as it proved.
Similarly, did the White Lions need to move up turn 1? You were not interested in mass charging the corsairs turn 2, and you would happily let Saerith engage anything else without the White Lions, so I feel you were over-eager with them.

One thing I notice is little consideration on your part to getting rid of harpies. On turn 2, could Naenor have charged the center harpies, killed them, and not be charged by warriors/black guard, either via overrun or staying put? I would have picked them as a higher priority target than the Witch Elves, especially since you could redirect into the Witch Elves if the harpies had fled.
Alternatively, why not charge those harpies with the center Eagle? A good round has you kill/break them, while a bad round might block up the warriors behind the harpies.


Rules note:
Chargers move before fleeing units in 8th. So when the Black Guard charged the archers, maximum contact would have definitely NOT been possible (likely good for the narrower BG), and the entire charge might have been impossible.


Last edited by dabber on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:27 pm 
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1. Champion didn't die until the very end. First combat round I dedicated one attack from the Prince, which he saved, then from the Dragon, which he also saved
2. Yes. I was 10.5" away and rolled 6, 6, 3.
3. Had the Corsairs overran (which they will, 9 times out of 10) they would've been far gone, perhaps even suscetible to being flanked themselves
4. Power of Darkness was of very limited use here - he already had +1PD so could only get +1 more (net sum). I'm not sure he considered it at all though

Agreed about Breath Weapon vs 2+. However, I really doubted I could engage the Corsairs. What you say about the Dragon Princes is correct. I most likely could've charge - overran, and fled a charge move. Naenor was hiding behind the Dragon from his RxB's which could've been in range otherwise. I was fairly close regardless and I didn't want to give the corsairs that off chance of catching Saerith (if Naenor was to be placed further ahead then so would he). The Lions moved to get Olannon in range of everything I wanted, besides it stalled his Cold One Knights (which worked perfectly) as they didn't dare to face them head-on. The idea was to get the cauldron and witch elves and then combo-charge the Corsairs if he dared move them up - Lions in front, Saerith + Naenor in the rear, using Eagles to block Warriors and Knights.

Indeed I underestimated the Harpies. I believe this is the first game I'm on the receiving end of something as annoying as our Eagles. I'm not sure Naenor could've charged and gotten clear though. Pictures are a bit fussy with regards to distance etc. I could have charged with a normal Eagle I guess.

With regards to chargers moving before fleeing units - I wasn't aware of that actually. Will remember it next time! I'm also unsure of what this would've meant for whether it had been successful or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
4. Power of Darkness was of very limited use here - he already had +1PD so could only get +1 more (net sum).
I forgot about that rule covering PoD. Definitely not worth ever casting.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:15 pm 
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What I gathered from this report
-Lots of fancy manouvering.
-Some uncommon dice rolls.
-Some mistakes were made.
-I need to schedule a game vs Peter before he gets any better if I'm to have a chance of beating him :wink:

Excellent report, as always :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Thanks for the batrep Curu, always great to read!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:26 am 
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Good job Curu. Need advice for the next foe now? :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Love the title, "Run for the Hills". Very fitting. What a nailbiter!

Most of my thoughts have already been mentioned here, so I only have a couple original ones for you. You mention in turn 2 that you consider charging the warriors with your two characters, but deem it too risky. I agree with you - a whiffed combat would be really bad - however my math has your two characters doing 18 wounds on average (Assuming you breathe on them), which gives you a 3 model margin for error. I might have gone for it, throwing in an eagle just to be safe. Shutting down that Dark Elf magic phase is just so critical in my opinion, even more so than taking out the Cauldron. Also, assuming you fail to break steadfast and he holds, there won't be enough models left in the unit to pose a serious threat to you the next turn, allowing you to clear him out and reform to face whatever direction his Sorceress fled to and charge her on your turn.

The way you played it definitely wasn't wrong, but the higher risk higher reward route might have saved your horde that painful magic phase later, and kept them in fighting shape for those Cold Ones.

I also agree with Dabber wholeheartedly - clear the support out, then focus the troops. Those harpies turned out to be a very annoying thorn in your side!

In a situation like this game, there's also the possibility of deploying your horde in two ranks as opposed to horde formation initially. You can always reform later when a charge is imminent, and those few extra shots might have helped take out a Black Guard or two (or Harpies :P)

As always, a great game, and I'm glad you squeezed out a victory. I want that Dragon all the way at the top of that league!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:00 pm 
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@dabber - indeed the rules of the league make this a highly situational spell to use.

@rusty - yeah I guess that's the gist of it ;) It's good that we're getting some Dark Elf players around, I intend to play against a stronger Dark Elf list, too (I fear that the comp is a little too hard on them).

@Jimmy - you're welcome mate! I'll keep them coming as I play more games

@MR. GRUMPY - Thanks! Next foe's WoC...

@Brewmaster_D - the problem with double-charging the warriors is the challenge, and the fact that I would have to use breath weapon really soon. Besides, if he holds for 1 round, he can place his Sorceress in Corsairs with CoK ready to counter-charge. Thus, I've gained 19 Warriors as opposed to 6 Witch Elves + Cauldron of Blood. The main problem is that breath fire and thunderstomp have a high level of variance so it's a bit risky indeed. I could've probably used Eagle to mitigate poor situations though, so maybe this would've been a better move. The opportunity to catch his Sorceress that early definitely was tempting. Next time I play DE I'll definitely assign someone to hunt down flyers. Horde in 2 ranks (or even 1!) would've been way better against Black Horror - I should of course have thought of this as I knew they weren't doing anything fancy in my Turn 2. I want to see this list come out on top, too ;)

My next league game is tomorrow already! It's against Warriors of Chaos - same player and army as my last practice game. Any advice will be appreciated :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:45 pm 
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PUSSY!!!!!!!!

Just saying :) - I've never trying to preserve points in a game ever.

Great to see the old book magic come out, Dark and High are two of the best lores, with Vauls really helping you out versus his magic items.

He runs a soft list very similar to my old DEs, even down to the chariot in place of the hydra. I had 30 witches in place of the black guard. It was hard hard match for him, but due to luck and a few mistakes he actually did rather well.

Nice game

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:38 am 
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Can't wait for the battle report incoming !


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:49 pm 
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@Rabidnid - I can see where you're coming from and how that can make sense in the right situation. However, leaving my Dragon in the open or charging anything here is simply poor play: I stand a very little chance of netting any more victory points and this is a league where we track winnings etc. According to the comp of the league his list could not have been a lot harder.

@pimousse771 - here you go:

Report up!

:: Veni, Vidi, Vici ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2498

His list:

Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord on Disc, 1+ armour save, 4+ ward
Khorne BSB on jugger, 1+ armour save, 4+ ward

40 Khorne Marauders, GW
38 Khorne Marauders, GW
24 Khorne Warriors, Halberd + Shield (ward save vs shooting banner)
15 Chosen, Halberd + Shield + full command (terror banner)
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
Warshrine

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

We have played eachother a couple of times before, of which 1 was with these exact lists. In our last encounter, I seriously out-deployed him in a refused flank manner to maximise my shooting potential. This time, he had learned his lesson with regards to this trick, though his lines were still rather spread out (as they need to be with his huge frontages. Magic saw me get Curse and Flames and I swapped Curse for Shield. He got neither Gateway nor Pandaemonium (!). Talk about a bad start for him! I was very relieved by this as my Dragon pretty much had a free playground.

I won the roll for sides and he had to deploy first. I chose to force him to either face the rock separating stuff or go through the woods (where he wouldn't be steadfast). He chose the first of these 2 and I knew I was to play a game I know very well ;)

Image

His Chosen receive +1S. With a +2 to start, I promptly rolled a '5' and got first turn!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I place a number of dice 12" away from the Hellcannon, realizing that I can fly Saerith into the safe-zone. I promptly do it and spend an Eagle to deny the Warriors a charge on the Dragon. The rest move up fairly aggressively and I take care to ensure that my flyers and Dragon Princes cover a LOT of attractive Sorceror Lord spots. Magic is 7v3 after a channel on my part. The result sees Flames kill 23 (!) Marauders from his smaller unit and Lions receive Shield! A really good start for me.

The Archers follow up by killing a handful of hounds, which pass their panic tests due to BSB.

Image

:: Warriors Turn 1 ::

The first that happens is that his Warriors fail their LD8 re-rollable frenzy test and this seriously ruins his plans. Unable to charge the Dragon, they go for the Eagle instead. This forces the Chosen-blocking Warhounds to try the same (his original plan was to wheel the Warriors Westwards to free up the Chosen). However, since he has to equilize the models fighting, the Warhounds now block the Chosen's path to Saerith (they were 12" away and he rolled double 5 for charge distance). He did however declare this charge + the Warshrine on the Dragon, while his last hounds charge the DP (to make way for the Shrine). The shrine however rolled very poor but the Hounds made the Princes.

So, net result: Eagle dual-charged by Warriors + Hounds, Chosen fail their charge, Warshrine fails its charge, Warhounds vs Dragon Princes. Not too bad, especially considering that the Warriors would have to overrun and be stuck against the stone for who-knows how long ;)

Magic is 4v4 and he starts off with a flickering fire on the central Eagle, but a '1' for strength sees the bird escape any roast treatment. The last 2 go for Treason but I easily dispel with my 4D6. Flames kills off enough marauders to leave but 4 standing (they failed their free reform by the way so he gave up on them - hence the lack of flames dispel). Note: I completely forgot that Flames only works in our own magic phases, at the beginning. Instead, I thought that it worked at the end of every magic phase.

His Hellcannon misses the Lions by a mighty 8" and kills 3 Hounds. The last 1 passes its panic test!

Combat sees the Eagle killed and the Princes make short work of the dogs. I reform them to gain 2" on the Chosen while mainting LoS. The Chosen get +1A.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I consider whether to go for the big prize or not - the Dragon Princes are 15" away from the Chosen with Saerith and Naenor both having guaranteed charges. This is such a juicy charge because I can overrun into the Sorcerer Lord with Saerith and they haven't gotten the Ward yet. I check my math-hammer sheet and there's an 80% chance that my Princes will make it. I declare the charges and pray I don't get a repeat of my last match. The dice come up a '6', '4', '2' and I make it!

Magic is 11 v 6 which is big for me. I start off with a 2D6 Shield on the Dragon Princes which he is forced to dispel. As he comments, he has to have a chance to win this fight if he wants to have a chance at the game. I then follow up with a 6D6 Flames on his big Marauders which he tries (but fails) to dispel. Roughly half of them die. I fail to cast Drain with my remaining dice (poor roll).

The Archers pound on the Marauders some more and they're now down to a managable size.

The all-important combat sees the Drakemaster accept the challenge and slay the Chosen Champion with 2 unsaved wounds. The rest follow up and between the Elves, there are only 8 Chosen alive to hit back. They put 2W on Naenor, 3 on Faeria and kill all the Princes save for the Drakemaster (of course). After my Eagle fluffs its attacks, I cannot risk fluffing Faeria's 6 attacks so I declare breath fire - I promptly score 10 hits which results in -4 Chosen. After she's done attacking and thunderstomping there's 1 model left! He needs to roll fairly low, which he fails to do and auto-dies (banner). I reform Naenor, overrun Saerith into his Sorceror Lord and the Drakemaster stays still.

Image

:: Warriors Turn 2 ::

His Warshrine charges Naenor. The Marauders charge the blocking Eagle. Hellcannon decides to try and shoot the Lions so it stays still (I could've challenged his Sorceror Lord out anyways).

Magic sees him get 5v5 and it all goes to Treason the Lions. I am powerless to defend against his +5 to cast, the result sees 14 noble Elves die to each-others axes. I pass panic. Some more Marauders die to Flames.

Shooting sees the Hellcannon misfire in a spectacular fashion! Everyone within 11" suffers D6 S5 hits - which kills Naenor, the Drakemaster, the Eagle as well as a couple of Marauders, a wound on Faeria and a wound on his Warshrine!

Combat sees Saerith kill the Lord and reform to face his Marauders with BSB.

Image

After this, I charged the BSB and 1 remaining Marauder. I killed the BSB in a challenge and this left him with only the Warshrine and Warriors alive (I shot the rest of his dogs and Marauders). At this point he conceded!

:: Victory Points ::

A clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

For sure, my opponent could not catch a break this game: he didn't get gateway, my crucial magic rolls were really good (flames had a high casting value both times, as well as winds being VERY favourable between double 3's with a channel etc), he didn't get ward save on the chosen, the frenzied warriors messed his plan up... I won't go as far as to say that luck won me the game, but I do feel that he was rather unlucky here.

The supreme movement of my flyers again allowed me to pick targets as I please, while denying the others a chance to intervene. I also realized this game just how powerful high magic is with this setup - it's almost impossible for me to get a poor spell combination. In this example, only the roll of Courage + Fury is rather poor, and even then I have some options to play around with by swapping one for Shield!

Despite the game lasting less than half its full potential, Faeria took 5W and Saerith 1W (Loec vs BSB). This just goes to show how powerful the Star Dragon is - I'm way more comfortable with it taking 5W than I would've been with a Sun Dragon (of course!). This model just tanks so much damage, and observing the mighty Carmine Dragon model wreaking havoc on a big scale warms a fantasy heart ;)

A special shout-out goes to Brewmaster_D for encouraging High Risk, High Reward actions where appropriate. When I triple-charged the Chosen, I knew I could win the game there and then, barring obscene rolls. However, it could very well have turned out horribly if the Princes had failed their charge.

I must of course apologize for my mis-use of Flames. It's been a couple of games since I used it the last time and I had completely forgotten how it works! Fortunately, this hardly impacted the game at all, which I am very glad it didn't do!

Lastly, in spite of his bad luck my opponent was a very good sport here. It was an enjoyable game, although very fast, and I look forward to play him again. Again, I would appreciate input for him as well ;)

I hope you liked this game! It's been a while since I had a short game, with most recent matchups drawing out to the full 6 turns. It's refreshing to know that when things go my way, I can completely obliterate an army in a few turns, even if that army consists of 100+ dedicated close combat models.

Regards,
~Olannon

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:31 pm 
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I was looking forward to this as I drove home from work! I started typing comments as I read, but it ended so quickly they aren't interesting.

You mistyped the spells at the start. You said he failed to get Treason, but the report has him casting that twice. You should edit that to say "Gateway".

Doing Flames wrong did not really matter, since you never left it in play to hit a third time. Yes, hitting at the end of his magic phase vs the beginning of yours is different, but you can reasonably guess the damage, especially against naked Marauders. Wow, Flames seriously helped you win this game. It effectively eliminated both units!

Your 4 Dragon Princes and characters only killed 6 Chosen. The characters average 4.8 and the DPs average 3.3, so that was well below average. A little better luck and you take significantly less damage. You made up for it with the breath damage though.

Interesting that his hellcannon misfire was perhaps the best thing that could have happened, from his perspective. Killing your BSB and finishing the DPs, plus wounding the dragon. If he had gotten more power dice, and thus dispelled flames, that might have given him a chance.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Thanks for another great Batrep Curu.

The first turn was fantastic for you, magic really came through in possibly the best outcome you could hope for and no miscast!

As much as a great victory it is they are the types of games that certainly feel a little hollow due to your opponent just not getting any breaks.

Great use of the Eagles, everyone can certainly take away lessons from eagle placement in reading that battle report.

Onto your friends list if I can make a few suggestions from purely an observers view of WOC, also I know you haven't listed the magic item layout so I'm purely playing around here.

The Level 4 on the disc is a solid choice however I'd possibly outfit him in another way. Giving him the Golden eye gives him a very good ward save against shooting attacks and lets face it the only level 4 that should be in combat is possibly the Ogre Kingdoms slaughtermaster. Infernal puppet is great in an all comers list however I'm unsure what his intentions are in that regard. Bloodcurdling roar or Death's head are great for this model, get in close and cause some damage with him.

You can even replace the Jugger bsb with the Tzeentch one using third eye to nab some spells off the opponent which can always create nightmares. Jugger BSB is good although I think it would work much better in a unit of trolls to really dish out the pain, the advantage here is if they make two successful regens they get a roll on EOTG table making them potent by the time they hit combat.

No knights? I think your friend is putting himself at a huge disadvantage by not having these. A single unit of 5 nurgle knights with the banner of rage turns into a real killer and can be capable of running down a flank on it's down dishing out 15 attacks.

I think warriors work best in units of 18 going 6 wide. I'm a bit of a sucker for fluff so I like the Khorne marked warriors to have extra hand weapons to dish out 24 x S4 attacks but I completely understand that Halberds with that S bonus can be critical.

Chosen are very expensive for what they do so another unit of warriors would be better in my eyes. HW/Shield with mark of Tzeentch can make for an annoying 5+ parry save which helps them stick.

Another warshrine would go a long way to making units more potent. Throw favour of the gods on the BSB for that modification.

Hope some of this helps.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:43 am 
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@dabber - thanks for the spell notification, it's been fixed now! Although I understand it doesn't make for the best of reports, having short games can be really good sometimes as it just confirms that you and your list are capable of really bringing on the hurt.

@Jimmy - although it's kind of hollow as you said, it doesn't feel as hollow as if this had been a test game. It's kind of like, when it counts it doesn't matter - a win is a win sort of. I guess I'm very competitive by nature. As for your Eagle comment - thanks ;) I can't even imagine playing another army at the moment, missing out on those great Drakes. I will look into your WoC comments, too. One thing tells me that this is kind of an internet wisdom-y list, which has a lot of strong stuff but lacks the means to deal with e.g. chaff, spell selection, mobile armies etc. I don't know how WoC can overcome these things but I will look through their book more closely.

My next game will likely be on Sunday, however it won't be a league match. I guess it'll be a practice game against Orcs and Goblins, though I'm not sure yet. I would really like to try the Dragonlist against something else (Skaven and Dwarfs coming up in the league at some point!) as there's been a lot of WoC and DE lately. I dread meeting OK with dual-Ironblasters again though...

Tomorrow I'm arranging a painting night here at my place, hopefully there'll be a smartphone around with a decent enough camera to show off the Dragons, the prototype White Lions, the Dragon progress (now with magnetized wings and all!) as well as Naenor fully painted and a tentative army shot ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:39 am 
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I agree that the short games can be something to boast about but it doesn't really let either player learn anything about how their lists work or anything. I once had a similar situation where a player conceded on his turn one. My T1 I took out his BSB and half the escort, his T1 his L4 blew up and took half his unit with him! I don't blame him for giving up but neither of us learnt anything from it

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:26 am 
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I don't think that this game was so short that it showed nothing nor that nobody learned anything. For example, I again feel that deployment played a big part. Though he got a better starting point than last time, his deployment is still very compact and wide-spread. This is in big part thanks to the nature of his list. I also experienced first-hand just how powerful Chosen can be, and I dread to even think of them with a 3+ ward save (though to be fair, the other trickster's shard would've mitigated this somewhat). There's a difference between having lost at T1 and losing by T3 - especially when ultra-mobile lists are involved.

As for losing games T1 - this has happened to me plenty of times. I don't give up though (as the BR's show) but essentially, with a major loss like BSB + L4 in T1, the game is mostly over. From the top of my head I can only remember winning one of these games, but that was pure luck (with that being said, I came very close to winning another...).

Now, I'm not sure if you were trying to insinuate that I posted this BR simply to boast, but that was never my intention. As anyone who follows this thread knows, I post every game I play here regardless of outcome.

On another note, I just realized that this is the first game in which my Dragon Princes played a crucial and central role. Most games, they're guarding a flank or running down chaff, while here they were absolutely vital to my success. I view this as particularly interesting because I find Odinki's Star Dragon approach (which is backed up by a multi-Noble bus) very promising. As I've said before, I intend to dedicate 2012 to the Star Dragon. If this build turns out to be sub-optimal, that's one of the builds I'm most likely to try out (something like 3 Nobles in 7 Helms).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Wow... are you sure you didn't field a 40k list accidentally? It looks like a bomb went off on his side of the field!

Congrats on the win Curu, one step closer to first place! In a competitive situation, you're absolutely right - a win is a win. Your opponent certainly has his fair share of poor rolls, but this is also a great example of a failure at the list writing level to account for outlying situations. For example I don't see a scroll in his list to protect those vulnerable hordes from things like Dwellers or in this case Flames of the Phoenix. Once again I'll say, I don't think traditional lists are prepared to deal with the kind of mobile hitting power you present.

Glad to see you saw that opportunity to go all in and take out the cornerstone of his army in one fell swoop. I firmly believe part of playing this list well is knowing when to put all your chips on the table and just go for broke. I don't think there could be a better example of this - Chosen that will almost certainly become undefeatable later, and all of his magic offense and defense parked right behind them.

Not much else to say - short game, well executed.

Who's the next opponent?

D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Yeah it definitely felt like the air cavalry ;)

A scroll cannot be taken with Puppet - league restriction. I think the mistake is mostly with the list structure though, I do not believe that so many big blocks can be effective. At the very least, they'll struggle against a lot of lists - especially since they're frenzied.

Next opponent is OnG - but that's a practice game. League-wise I'm not sure yet, I'm quite far ahead of schedule ^^

As promised, some pictures for you all. Again, apologies for the poor quality. Once I get this army completed I will get hold of a proper DSLR etc to take good shots :)

First - Naenor. I had to hold him in my hand because he recently broke from his base.

Image

Image

I've also finished about half the Lions (if you count the unit fillers). They'll stand out pretty well thanks to the heavy usage of grey/white:

Image

Image

Here are the Dragons I've been talking so much about (who now act as Great Eagles):

Image

Image

Scale purpose shot:

Image

Today I finished the 14-man archer unit. I used the Wood Elf horn for my musician, which I think works pretty well with regards to making him stand out from the rest of the unit:

Image

Talking about the Wood Elf sprues, I found a couple of these back home during Christmas so I decided to model the smallest unit of Archers a little differently, for the sake of diversity:

Image

I really like the hoods and bows!

Lastly, the progress on Faeria, including the magnetized wings:

Image

Image

Image

There's a LOT of work left on that Dragon and some on the rider as well. For now though, I'm a bit tired of big things so I mostly paint the infantry. One thing's for sure, that dragon looks so much cooler with the wings on :D The smaller Dragons are in my opinion somewhat sub-optimal from a modelling point of view but I couldn't find anyone else that I liked. I believe that once they're painted and appear to be coherent with the rest of the force, they'll look a lot better. Speaking of which, I can't wait to see this all fully painted ;)

C&C welcome!

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Curu, the super wide pictures make the whole page massively wide, making the
previous posts largely unreadable. I'm pretty sure that is not a problem
specific to me, but something that happens to everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Yes, I'm aware of this. For some reason, although I scaled them down in photobucket, there's a delay here. It's happened before. The pictures are all at 800x600 (ish) now and hopefully they'
ll adjust to this sooner rather than later!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Very good Curu. Great dragon model.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:09 am 
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I'm worried. My BSB looks very similar to yours, and my white lions also have lion unit fillers.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:22 am 
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I love Great Eagles. Vs. WoC especially, I think they're one of the greatest units to have.

Sucks for your opponent though, ce la vie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:09 pm 
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I never answered your question on why I like the effect on your BSB Curu!

He just looks great. The winged horse, the standard, the cloak, the whole shebang!

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:18 pm 
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@Jimmy - thanks man! Have you seen the Carmine Dragon in real life?

@Elf_And_Safety - do you have any pictures? I'd love to see them :) I do believe my BSB is rather unique as far as High Elves go, did you mount yours on a Pegasus as well? Using a White Lion as a unit filler is very standard I believe.

@HERO - indeed Great Eagles are our best friends ;)

@SpellArcher - thanks for the specifics, I was a little unsure about a couple of things to be honest but I like him more and more as I get used to seeing him!

Again I must apologize for the pictures being too wide. It makes the post in particular and this page as a whole a lot harder to read than it should've been. I don't know why photobucket buffers the original size (I resize before I link here).

Yesterday one of the participating painters brought along his Grey Knight Paladings on some custom resin bases. Now, I've seen these models before but the bases really made them stand out! I asked where he got them from and he replied Micro Arts Studios. I went on to spend a couple of hours looking through their various fantasy resin bases and ended up buying 70 euro's worht of them ^^ Hopefully they'll arrive in not too long. I decided as follows: the small Archers will get temple ruins, the big Archers will get Ancient ruins, Naenor will get a forest base (to match Saerith), the cavalry will get Ancient ruins and lastly one of the Drakes will get temple ruins!

This does leave a few units without custom bases but I don't think it'll be a problem as 'normal' basing will thus stand out. Besides, I intend to check a local hobby shop for some resources. I was very inspired by BrianMage's basing techniques (see the Painting and Modelling section for his painting blog!) and I hope to do something similar myself!

Alright, enough painting and modelling talk for this post! Let's have a look at upcoming games:

The first game I have now is a practice match against Orcs and Goblins. It's the same opponent I played my 2000 point game against and he's now gotten a few more games so that he's used to 8th edition. He was kind enough to post his list beforehand since mine's openly available. It's roughly as follows:

Great Shaman w/Shrunken Head
Black Orc BSB w/Razor Standard
Night Goblin Shaman w/Dispel Scroll

36 Savage Orc Big 'uns
40 Night Goblins
5 Wolf Riders
30 Orcs with HW/Shield

6 Trolls
1 Goblin Chariot
1 Orc Chariot

1 Rock Lobber
1 Doom Diver
1 Mangler Squig
1 Pump Wagon
1 Arachnarok Spider

Basically, a few blocks around which a plethora of heavy hitters and supporters can work. From an Eagle point of view, this is a nightmare as I cannot hope to block off all the supporting bits. What I can do is use my movement to engage the support bits while the Eagles keep the blocks busy. Also, I need to read up on the Arachnarok. His shooting isn't too terrible, which will allow me to bide my time to ensure good combats.

My next league match (I don't know when I'll play it but it'll probably be a couple of weeks at least) is against Skaven. He is the one I fear the second most, after Dwarfs (2 big GW hordes with rock hard characters and maxed out war machines...). However, having seen his list in action I'm not too worried. A friend also played a practice game against him using my exact list and only lost 1 (!) great eagle! His list was posted earlier in this thread but I'll repost it here:

Warlord
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Dragonhelm
Sword of Anti Heroes
Talisman of Preservation
Shield
Other Triksters Shard

Chieftain
BSB
Enchanted Shield
Foul Pendant
Ironcurse Icon
Biting Blade

Grey Seer 240 (4 spells from Ruin, 0 from Plague)
Talisman of Endurance
Scalm
Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

49 Stormvermin
Command
Storm Banner

40 Plaguemonks
Command
Plague Banner

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

Hellpit

Doomwheel

Warp Lightning cannon

Sum 2499

As we've concluded before, the only real threats are his Doomwheel vs Dragon, Cannon vs Dragon and Plague Monks vs Lions. However due to my superior shooting and chaff I believe I can force a very favourable starting position.

As always I'd appreciate your input whether it regards the pictures of the models, your thoughts on custom bases, how to combat the Green horde or how to annihilate the Ratmen :)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Didn't realise that the Carmine Dragon is on a piffling small base! That's a pretty sweet bonus.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Also, Curu, I think your list is just super good vs. WoC because of the deployment numbers and flying units. Most WoC armies these days just can't handle such a thing.. especially when you consider the popular configuration of units and the Frenzy associated with it.

I still haven't found the restrictions you're playing under and I went through several pages :(

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:31 pm 
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@John Rainbow - it actually doesn't come with a base but the resin tree is almost exactly 50x50mm :)

@HERO - viewtopic.php?f=66&t=37604

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