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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Hey Guys!

Regarding the Doomwheel:

Typically this is run next to a chaff unit that can soak up 3 casualties a turn without noticing. Running it near a Hellpit would be bad news, as one slip up would fry your own monster. The combination of a tarpit unit + the Doomwheel is usually a good one.

I generally use the Doomwheel to create "Do not fly zones" for my opponent's large models. A good opponent knows that the Doomwheel is fully capable of incinerating any big targets, so with only random movement (3d6), getting those shots on a big guy is often easier said than done. It's true utility lies in the *threat* of incinerating big targets. It makes opponent's moves predictable, making it easy to create counter-strategies. I would expect him, upon seeing your dragon, to guard his artillery by utilizing the Doomwheel's 18" lightning range.

Also remember that it's 3 S2-10 hits with no armour saves. It's definitely something that you either need to commit entirely to taking out in one round (It does shoot when in combat, but only on its turn), or just generally avoid with your expensive models.

Some important notes:

- It's T6 with 6 wounds and a 4+ Armour save. Putting a wound or two on it with archers is an option.
- Each time it takes a wound while unengaged, it must take an "Out of Control" test - it rolls a dice for each wound, and any result of a 1 forces it to make a random direction 3d6" move. If it hits an enemy unit, it counts as charging and it does impact hits even if the unit it hits is friendly. This is best used in the first couple turns, before an out of control result could run it in to one of your own units.
- Once the charge is over and it's stuck in combat, it becomes relatively benign against infantry - 2D6 S2 attacks and D3 "Grind" hits at S6, plus 3 lightning shots on its turn. White Lions should make a mess of it pretty quickly.
- I think the real threat here is if your opponent decides to take two Doomwheels. Not sure if he know's you're rocking a Dragon list, but if I heard even an off the cuff rumour of an expensive model like that making an appearance, I'd be sure that my list had two Doomwheels and the Storm Banner. Using two in tandem, it then becomes very difficult to avoid these things, particularly when on a critical round he's robbing you of your flying movement. Again I'll say, your White Lions are your best friends here. Your horde should be able to take a Doomwheel out in two rounds of combat at the most.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
VC .... The main question I find myself asking is, what kind of an opportunity do I need to engage his bus?
The ideal version has you take out his support units, and then simultaneously expend Eagles (or archers) to block his 3 main units in order to allow you a double charge at his bus. I doubt that will work, because I think you will have to expend little units to keep him off you while you kill support units.

Curu Olannon wrote:
WoC ...What is the threshold here, in your opinion? I'm thinking that ~18 is doable while ~24 is too many.

Before ward saves, you inflict 6-7 wounds per turn, plus about 3 from thunderstomp, for about 10 warriors dead per turn. Tzeentch knocks that down to about 8. Halberds do about 1.7 dragon wounds per round. Call it 2. So you can wipe out a size 18 warrior unit for about 4 wounds on the dragon.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Dwarfs ... Again, I'm curious what you consider the threshold for the Dragon, both wounds-wise and opponent's unit-wise. I'm thinking that full-strength, I can pretty much engage anything since it's just better than being shot at. With, say, 4 wounds, the equation changes, however.

Dwarf horde gets 12 attacks a round at you, for about 1.3 dragon wounds per round. Your kill rate is the same as against warriors, so about 10 per turn. So taking out a horde of 40 takes 4 rounds of combat and costs you 4-5 dragon wounds. Challenge from the champ means you take another round to kill them, although you don't take any more damage.
However, the bigger danger is the Hammerer horde. They inflict about double the damage. You need to engage a warrior horde such that the Hammerers cannot charge in as well.
And if he brings a Dwarf Lord, no matter what, do NOT get the dragon in combat with him. MRoSteel, to cap your strength at 5, combined with a re-rollable armour save reduces your damage to near zero.
I don't think your arches should be able to do much against his machines. Although since you play systematic LOS (right?), the machines aren't hidden behind the hordes. That helps, but while I think systematic LOS is a MASSIVE improvement to the game, I don't have any experience with it to really know how much it helps your archers here.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Skaven ... One thing I'm unsure of what to handle is the Doomwheel. Initially I'm thinking that the Dragon can kill it if I get a charge off and the Lions should probably beat it pretty bad, too.
Dragon might kill it on the charge, but it is really chancy. You average a little over 5 wounds when popping the Talisman, and it has 5 wounds. But if you miss 1 wound, it lives to zap you, even in close combat (see the Skaven FAQ). Inflict a single wound first and I think charging the doomwheel makes sense, but you need that bonus wound. The Abomination is even harder to kill on the charge, but the impact of it barely surviving is less potentially severe. The danger is it swings before the dragon, so might inflict unpleasant damage even as it dies. Again, you really need to put a wound or two on it before charging.
Your Lions will wreck either one rapidly in combat, without suffering too much.

I think this is a case where splitting fire is a good idea. You don't absolutely need to kill either with shooting, you just need to make them reliably killable by your dragon. If the Doomwheel is roughly near your dragon, I would definitely shoot it for a wound first and then shift fire to the abomination. Otherwise I would shoot 2 (two!) wounds off the abomination and then shift fire to the doomwheel.
However, if you have archer shots at the WLC, I would shoot there first to kill the WLC, then shoot whichever monster is further from your White Lions.

@Brewmaster: I believe his league restrictions make all the Skaven rares 0-1, so no double Abomination nor double Doomwheel.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Thanks a lot for the useful input guys! My first opponent is Dark Elves so I'm not too worried about Skaven just yet, however it's good to be prepared. Of course I will spend some time going into an in-depth analysis once the lists are complete.

One thing which surprised me - the Zzzzap! rule specifically states that if targets are equidistant the owning player chooses who is hit. I take this to mean that if, say, 2 Eagles and a Dragon is engaged with the Doomwheel, I can choose to have the bolts hit the Eagles first? This creates an interesting dynamic with regards to combo-charges, Eagle-protection etc.

Oh and yeah, Skaven rares are 0-1 so no double Doomwheel :)

We do indeed play systematic LoS. I believe that TLoS is a poor implementation as it for example allows for strategic modelling. While this doesn't affect a lot of units, using special models for e.g. a Dragon really hurts you.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Does it mean the doomwheels controlling player or the controlling player of the possible targets? (I don't have the skaven book)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:29 pm 
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0-1 on the rares makes a lot of sense, and I think it's a good call. In any event, I agree with dabber's assessment 100%.

Regarding the owning player clause - it seems to me that this is in reference to the owner of the doomwheel, not the targets. My reasoning is that in a scenario where the doomwheel is in combat alongside a unit of slaves, if it were in reference to the owner of the target, then you'd be in a situation where two opposing players would have equal say who gets shot at.

Also, using a more anecdotal approach - Lightning chooses *you* as a target, not the other way around. Unless you equip your eagles with lightning rods :P

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:36 am 
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I'm still not 100% sure but I do believe they refer to the owning player of the Doomwheel. This is mostly due to the wording of the last sentence under 'Loss of Control' - "...although the owning player must still fire the doomwheel...". In this case, the owning player clearly refers to the Skaven player. As such, I assume they mean the same when they later on describe what happens when units are equidistant relative to the Doomwheel.

Regardless, it indeed would've been dangerous to combo-charge unless I could've gotten 3-4 units into melee.

So Dark Elves are up first. The player is the same one I had my very first DE match against. I'm looking forward to a rematch and I'm hoping he'll bring the nastiest list he can under the comp ;)

Oh and by the way - happy new year's all :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:27 pm 
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So... its finally 2012, and someone promised an entire year of the Star DRAGON!

I hope you have been listening to your angry music because it seems that the time is upon us!


hehehe can't wait to see some more battle reports

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:06 am 
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thelordcal wrote:
So... its finally 2012, and someone promised an entire year of the Star DRAGON!

I hope you have been listening to your angry music because it seems that the time is upon us!


hehehe can't wait to see some more battle reports


Yes indeed sir! Do you have Spotify? If yes, I'd like to hear some playlist suggestions ;)

I got the Dark Elf list today but because I need to get every list before I publish any of them I can't post it yet. However, the deadline is tomorrow so I should be able to put it up for analysis shortly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:34 pm 
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As promised - the Dark Elf list for the league:

Lords
1 Supreme Sorceress , Lvl4 (Dark), Opal Amulet, Darkstar cloak

Heroes
1 Sorceress , Lvl2 (Fire), Dispell Scroll, The Guiding Eye
1 Master , Dark pegasus, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Cloak of Hag Graef, Dawnstone
1 Death Hag , Cauldron of Blood (BSB)

Core
28 Corsairs , Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard
19 Warriors , Full Command, Standard of Discipline
19 Repeater Crossbowmen , Full Command, Shields
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

Special
8 Cold One Knights , Full command, Standard of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony
20 Black Guard , Musician, Standard, Banner of Murder
6 Witch Elves , Musician
1 Cold One Chariot

Basically I don't see any big threats here with regards to the Dragon. However, if his core + cavalry get through to my infantry, I could be in trouble seeing as his magic will likely pound on me early on. I believe that the key to winning is to use my flyers as usual to neutralize his mages / elite infantry and then wrap around towards his centre. I do not want him hitting home against my centre before I've had a chance to make an impact though. His lack of Shades and Shadow Magic gives me a lot more flexibility as far as my flyers are concerned.

So - what are your thoughts about this list?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Initial thought is that your dragon should be able to go to town on some easy backline VP while you stall his advance. How long does that bunker last vs your prince if you were to charge it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 pm 
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The problem is not the bunker in itself, but rather the champion delaying me and potentially allowing another unit to help him out - which I do not want. Getting Cold One Knights to my flank for example could be disastrous. If I can get Naenor and Saerith in together a unit of 20 should die in 1-2 combat rounds while 30 should be gone in 2-3. 2 Combat rounds is optimal as this means I get to make a combat reform with the Dragon (while the BSB chases) and then charge again since it'll be my turn. To this end, I might use the breath weapon if the first round isn't satisfying.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Since the Dark Elf list didn't generate a lot of response I'm confident that you all feel the same way I do - no major threats here.

I've decided to post the rest of the lists to get some initial input. As the league progresses I will ask in-depth about the army I'm about to face. However, for now I'll just post them so you can see what I'll be up against and maybe post your evaluations:


:: Skaven ::

Warlord
Rat Ogre Bonebreaker
Dragonhelm
Sword of Anti Heroes
Talisman of Preservation
Shield
Other Triksters Shard

Chieftain
BSB
Enchanted Shield
Foul Pendant
Ironcurse Icon
Biting Blade

Grey Seer 240 (4 spells from Ruin, 0 from Plague)
Talisman of Endurance
Scalm
Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer
Level 2
Dispel Scroll

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

5 Giant rats
Packmaster

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

40 Slaves
Shield
Command

49 Stormvermin
Command
Storm Banner

40 Plaguemonks
Command
Plague Banner

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

5 Gutter Runner
Poisoned
Slings

Hellpit

Doomwheel

Warp Lightning cannon

Sum 2499



:: Dwarfs ::

Dwarf Lord @278 pts
Shieldbearers
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Master rune of apite
Rune of might

Dwarf thane @160 pts
Master rune of gromril
BSB
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance
Rune of fire

Dwarf Runelord @258 pts
Master rune of balance
Shield
Rune of cleaving
Rune of stone
Rune of preservation
Rune of resistance

39 Dwarf warriors @415 pts
Great weapons
FC

37 Dwarf hammers @524 pts
FC
Master rune of Grungi

Cannon @140 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging

Cannon @145 pts
Engineer
Rune of forging
Rune of burning

Grudge thrower @170 pts
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration x2

Grudge thrower @150
Engineer
Rune of accuracy
Rune of penetration
Rune of burning

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons

10 Quarrellers @130
Great weapons



:: Warriors of Chaos ::

Sorcerer Lord (2#, 385 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch, 290 pts, Lvl 4 + Mark of Tzeentch
1 Disc of Tzeentch
1 Enchanted Shield
1 Infernal Puppet
1 Golden Eye of Tzeentch

Exalted Hero (2#, 254 pts)
Halberd, BSB, Mark of Khorne
1 Juggernaut of Khorne
1 Charmed Shield
1 Talisman of Preservation

Chaos Warriors (24#, 496 pts)
456 pts , Halberds, Shields + Mark of Khorne + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Blasted Standard

Chaos Marauders (38#, 232 pts)
38 Chaos Marauders of Khorne, 232 pts , Great Weapon + Mark of Khorne + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std

Chaos Marauders (40#, 242 pts)
40 Chaos Marauders of Khorne, 242 pts , Great Weapon + Mark of Khorne + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds

Chaos Hounds (5#, 30 pts)
5 Chaos Warhounds

1 Hellcannon, 205 pts

Chosen (15#, 435 pts)
1 Champion of Khorne
1 Favour of the Gods
1 Wailing Banner

Chaos Warshrine
1 Chaos Warshrine, 130 pts



:: Vampire Counts ::

Vampire Lord (1#, 455 pts)
1 Vampire Lord, 255 pts , Level 3
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 The Flayed Hauberk
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Dawnstone
1 Master of the Black Arts
1 Red Fury

Vampire (1#, 195 pts)
1 Vampire
1 The Balefire Spike
1 Book of Arkhan
1 Dread Knight
1 Ghoulkin

Vampire (1#, 225 pts)
1 Vampire (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Dread Knight
1 The Flag of Blood Keep

Vampire (1#, 200 pts)
1 Vampire
1 Blood Drinker
1 Dragonhelm
1 Dread Knight
1 Beguile

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Crypt Ghouls (40#, 320 pts)
40 Crypt Ghouls

Corpse Cart (1#, 75 pts)
1 Corpse Cart

Black Knights (8#, 283 pts)
8 Black Knights, 248 pts , Barding + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Royal Standard of Strigos

Black Coach (1#, 200 pts)
1 Black Coach

Terrorgheist (1#, 225 pts)
1 Terrorgheist

So - what are your thoughts? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:00 pm 
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I don't have much experience against dwarves or chaos. But I can offer some comments on the others:
The skaven list looks pretty usual. Loads of not much backed up by the Abomination, Doomwheel, and WLC. As far as risks to your dragon go, I'd say this list probably takes the cake. Mainly the Warp lightning cannon and the Doomwheel. If for some reason you find yourself in range of the doom wheel you can probably kiss your dragon goodbye, so it would be a fantastic idea to stay away from that contraption.

Other than that, watch the threats of the Abomination, and the doom wheel. Take out the cannon ASAP. It'll just be a regular uphill battle against skaven I think. The poisoned attacks on the Gutter runners also will make your life difficult. I can see that player looking to make short work of your Eagle noble with those guys. As far as these lists go, I would consider the Skaven the greatest threat. (Aren't they always?)

As you said, the dwarf player only has one non-flaming cannon, so hopefully you can work around that single cannon.

The Vamps also have a bit of a threat - watch the terrorgheist. With luck it'll kill both your prince and dragon in a single shooting phase. Something that will definitely throw a spanner in the works. That being said, it shouldn't be difficult to take down, just don't forget it can scream into close combat! As far as the Cav bus goes. I believe if you neutralise the threats to the dragon. AKA, the terrorgheist, and play your positioning carefully, you should be able to combo-crush the knight bus. I could be completely wrong, but with the star dragon I think you could probably pull it off. Perhaps use the breath weapon on the dragon to thin the ghouls? I imagine that one breath would technically kill half of them, which is definitely not to be sneezed at...

I apologise if you know all of this. Just giving my opinion :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Thanks Cython! I will indeed try and keep the Dragon away from the Doomwheel, however this gives me another problem - how do I take it down? If I can ping off a wound or two then I can charge it and insta-kill it before it gets to shoot.

As for Gutter Runners, Naenor isn't too worried (2+ re-rollable armour save) but the other Eagles will have to watch out. However, all-archer core should be able to keep these skirmishers at bay.

The way I see it, I have to get the Lions against the Doomwheel OR ping off wounds with Archers and then use the Star Dragon. The Lions are a hard counter to the Abomination but they're very poor against the Warlord (Dragonhelm).

As for the Vampire Counts, I have no idea how to deal with the Terrorgheist. With its flying move it's just so insanely mobile. The bus isn't that much of a problem I believe because of its lack of the Vampire Lord (he's not mounted). I have to read up on the Terrorgheist! For those of you who've faced it, do you have any tips? I have a lot of mobility available, not to mention the shooting!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Well, like you said, for the doom wheel, with your archers you should be able to nick a single wound off him, and since the warp lightning bolts only have a range of 18" you could swoop in with the prince, pop the talisman and just eat it, shouldn't cause too much issue. But those first few wounds are absolutely critical, as you said.

Against the Terrorgheist, shooting is your friend. You should be able to inflict a decent amount of damage on it purely with your archers. The trick of course is getting into range and LoS and all that business. Again, this might have to be a shoot to knock some wounds off +charge by prince. One thing to note is that its shooting attack gets weaker as it loses wounds. Don't know if you knew this, so see to taking wounds off ASAP.

As for the bus, I saw the list and immediately assumed the Vamp lord was mounted. Without him, indeed, you should be able to deal with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:38 pm 
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I keep misplacing this, so I'm storing my own link to your league rules here.

Dark Elves:
If he does NOT get Word of Pain, charge the dragon into the knights to protect everyone else from them. The chariot is also a good early charge for the dragon, since it cannot flee. Your archers should be a clear positive here. As you said, this looks very winnable.

VC:
I'm surprised. His Lord isn't a great caster, and doesn't have the Helm of Commandment. Combine that with no Drakenhoff banner means I don't see massive threat from his bus. And his lord is NOT on a horse?!?
He also has no unit champions in his ghouls, so if the Vampire Lord is in a ghoul unit, your dragon can charge the unit touching the vampire lord and kill him for the win. I guess against you he goes in the knights and reduces them to move 6 without swiftstride?
I do not understand how this list beats you. Which means it would wipe me off the table, because I don't get it.

WoC:
Basically what I expected. On the list, I think they are a real threat to you. Gateway + Hellcannon + Chosen + big units is dangerous. Yet I always find WoC more powerful on paper than they typically perform on the table, probably because they suck at manuever.
Remember that Eagles can stomp warhounds, and that makes Eagles very capable of killing dog units.

Dwarfs:
His lord is a threat to the dragon, but with just strength 4, he does minimal damage to anything else - including your BSB. You sure the Dwarf Lord does not have a shield? As listed he only has 2+ armor, but he really should have 1+ re-rollable, so I think this Dwarf Lord is kinda sucky. I'm surprised he did not take an Organ Gun, but the lack sure helps you. Only 2 big blocks instead of 3 also helps you, but those blocks are still plenty dangerous. This looks like a winnable game to me.

Skaven:
Pretty much as expected.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Hey Curu,

I totally missed that you posted the Dark Elf list! Sorry about that!

Dark Elves

The comp really tones these guys down, that's for sure! With no shades in his army, your shooting based core is going to prove invaluable. Round 1 should see you remove all of his support elements (Harpies, Witch Elves), then the following turns you can focus on neutralizing his other shooting.

I think that threatening his bunker with your fliers should keep him on the defensive, allowing your ranged superiority to really show through here. I'd aim to put him between a rock and a hard place - if he gets too aggressive, it means opening up the bunker to attack and likely losing the Sorceress and if he stays on the defensive, your archer core is going to plink away at his valuable units like the Black Guard. All of your shots directed at one of his T3 5+ units is about 9 wounds a turn, which is a tough pill to swallow with his relatively small unit sizes.

The biggest threat that I see here is killing blow on your prince. You can be almost sure that whoever he charges in to is going to get the cauldron buff, so I'd aim to mitigate the number of attacks by charging flanks.

Skaven

That Warlord is just asking to get run through by your dragon. With only one hero in base contact, he'll only be at S5 5A. 5 S5 attacks from the bonebreaker, all hitting on 4's. If your prince doesn't kill him, you can tank the hits and finish him off pretty quickly. The hellpit and doomwheel are also decent targets if you can put a wound or two on them with your shooting.

I agree that Naenor is well geared for dealing with the gutter runners - also, remember they're only Ld 7, so forcing panic tests is always a good thing. Your smaller units of archers will be great for this, freeing up the horde to focus on putting wounds on the hellpit/doomwheel.

The plague Monks are problematic. Rerolling missed hits and wounds in one round is a silly number of wounds making it through versus our low Toughness troops. I'd aim to stall this unit and focus on the stormvermin. Best long term solution for the Plague Monks is the prince, since they're only S3, however he's got more important tasks early on!

This'll be the toughest matchup in my opinion.

Vampire Counts

Wow, this guy sure does like vampires lol.

His lord with no ward save in a unit full of S3 attacks? If this isn't a target for the Prince, I don't know what is... Pop that talisman and win the game turn 2 lol. White Lions should deal with that bus with little fussing.

I agree with Cython, use the archers to put a wound or two on the terrorgheist and arrange for a meeting with the prince. Even a perfect roll from his shooting attack (12 + 6) is highly unlikely to kill the prince. It'd be 8 wounds, distributed per shooting, so 5 on the dragon and 3 on the prince. Prince still gets his ward, so you'd have to see some wonky shooting distribution to see either model die.

I see this as one of your easier matchups.

Warriors of Chaos

Lots of High Strength to worry about here. Hellcannon is a good target for the Prince, to shut it down early. He's got very little to deal with your supporting units, so as dabber pointed out, you should own the movement phase here.

Once your archers clear out those dogs, they're actually really well suited to taking on those marauders (54 shots takes off a rank a turn, + stand and shoot, + ASF - I think you'll be impressed with how they do) freeing up the lions to deal with the warriors. I see them as the best source of points for you in this list, since god knows what'll be going on with the chosen.

Dwarfs

*gulp*

Well, at least one of the cannons has the burning rune on it. So I think you've actually got a good shot here. Undoubtedly your Prince will draw most of the fire, and your white lions should be able to take on his horde of warriors with little fuss. The hammerers, being stubborn, are the unit that I would delay.

Depending on his deployment, I'd put the quarrelers or any exposed warmachines as viable targets for the archers.

With your dragon drawing the fire, barring terrible luck, you should be able to preserve an eagle or two to control his already weak movement phase. Using this, isolating a horde and popping it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Hope this helps! Good luck in the matches.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:57 pm 
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@Cython - the Terrorgheist has a fairly short range as I understand it (the shooting attack, that is). This will probably be key with regards to setting up good angles for shooting and counter-charges.

@dabber - assassinating the Vampire Lord didn't really occur to me but of course that's viable seeing as he's not mounted! I will definitely keep this in mind. With him dead though the bus might still cause me trouble so I must take care not to consider killing the Lord at all costs. I agree with your WoC assessment. The big units really have me scared, too, at least initially. However, there are some good targets for the dragon and superior mobility + firepower should ensure I can dictate what happens. As for Dwarfs, I'm positive the loadout is correct. I also agree that the blocks are really tough. I'm unsure of how to approach this. Depending on deployment, who gets first turn and how effective his first rounds of firing are, I might be able to play this at my own pace.

@Brewmaster_D - no worries :) Agreed about DE. Killing Blow is something to watch out for. By keeping the Dragon in places that allow multiple charges I reduce this somewhat seeing as it, coupled with Naenor, can kill just about anything in this list in 1 round of combat (e.g. before the Cauldron can adjust). As for your Skaven assessment, the Monks have me worried as well. The best thing is to get them with the Dragon, however he already has a LOT of things I want him to do. Failing this, they should die fairly quickly to shooting. A combined charge of DP + Naenor might be sufficient, I'll have to do some math though. Agreed about VC. WoC - Archers indeed perform very well against Marauders! Lastly, engaging the Hammerers last makes a lot of sense. It will depend a lot upon character placement etc.

Thanks for the feedback y'all! I'm quite sure I will ask for more specifics and your thoughts on my initial takes on the lists (which I will post as we get closer to the matches). I have a practice match against WoC coming up next Wednesday (provided the club is open) which I'm really looking forward to. He's a great guy and I believe he's made a very strong list - a proper test for me!

Lastly, I'm intending to order my Drakes tomorrow. After many hours, I decided on the following:
- Dragonmaster Dragon :: https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/cata ... GameStyle=
- High Elf Prince on Dragon (warmaster series) :: https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/cata ... GameStyle=
- Marauder Dragon :: https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/cata ... GameStyle=

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:50 am 
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I'll only give advice for Skavens I've had alot of games against them.

Since he does have the Storm Banner your mobility is going to be an issue.

There are a couple of targets you need to neutralise fast if you want to win the battle.
a) Doomwheel
b) WLC
c) Storm Banner.

With regards to the Doomwheel I would probably try and ping 1 - 2 wound off it and charge it with either the Dragon or WL to try and kill it off in 1 round of combat. Any longer (as previously mention) and it'll be dangerous. Note: After pinging off 1 - 2 wounds would porbably start on chaff.

With the WLC if Storm Banner burns up early you can try charging it with your eagles and / or your BSB otherwise the DPs will probably have this job of cleaning it.

Storm Banner - hope for Vauls if not hope it burns up early! Once the Storm banner is deactivated your mobility is back to you and you can control the table more. I think it'll make your life easier and you can neutralise the doomwheel and WLC faster.

I would seriously try to not get into combat will the plauge monks. Try and kill his characters and Stormvermin for points.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:02 am 
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Thanks for the Skaven input :) It'll be a very hard match I think but the advice I've gotten so far is really helpful!

Finally I will see some action again in the very near future. I'm having a practice game against WoC on Wednesday. I assume he'll bring the same list he plays in the league (by the way he lost to Vampire Counts in the first round). Also, my first league game has been scheduled for Sunday (Dark Elves).

I ordered the various Dragons so hopefully I should be getting them soon!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
I'm having a practice game against WoC on Wednesday. I assume he'll bring the same list he plays in the league (by the way he lost to Vampire Counts in the first round).
That fits with my comment about the VC list - it looks like junk, but this guy is competent, so there must be something we are not seeing. On paper I think the WoC should crush that VC list. What happened?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Looking forward to some reports.

Skaven and Chaos list looks real tough while the Dwarf and VC in particular looks pretty sub-optimal. Two combat unit really isn't enough to hold the line for that dwarf player so he will have to roll godly with his shooting or be dragon breakfast. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:41 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
I'm having a practice game against WoC on Wednesday. I assume he'll bring the same list he plays in the league (by the way he lost to Vampire Counts in the first round).
That fits with my comment about the VC list - it looks like junk, but this guy is competent, so there must be something we are not seeing. On paper I think the WoC should crush that VC list. What happened?


The player is indeed competent and one of the better ones around in our group. He also tends to make unique lists, though they frequently feature powerful elements they are hardly ever internet copy paste lists. I will have a better answer as to what happened when I talk to the WoC player on Wednesday ;)

Grumpy, I mostly agree with your assessment but the tough characters and big unit sizes have me a bit worried. I will analyse these threats more closely as the match approaches, for now I am focusing on the DE game :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Finally I got a game in! Although the vacation's been good and I've gotten around to do loads of painting and modelling, I've really missed playing the game. I recently finished a game against Warriors of Chaos and I'll get the report up as soon as possible. In the meantime, here are some of the highlights from the game:
- Infernal Gateway hitting the Dragon, causing 7 S8 hits
- Great Eagle charging Sorceror Lord to try and tie him up in combat for as long as possible
- Elf unit failing a critical LD8 re-rollable panic test
- Saerith charging a Great Weapon Horde on his own because I fail a secondary charge
- Curu Olannon miscasting twice against Infernal Puppet

To be continued, will probably take me a couple of hours to write it all up :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Damn gateway! Looking forward to the reading.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Ouch sounds like a brutal game. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
- Curu Olannon miscasting twice against Infernal Puppet
That means he survived the first one! And he probably didn't run off the table as part of the re-rollable panic test. Things must have been going great! *silly smile*


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Report up!

:: Vile Sorcery ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 216
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total :: 1019

30 Archers, Full Command and Gleaming Pennant - 360
14 Archers, Musician - 159
10 Archers - 110

Core Total :: 629

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Eternal Flame, Amulet of Light :: 505
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 700

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2498

His list:

Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord on Disc, 1+ armour save, 4+ ward
Khorne BSB on jugger, 1+ armour save, 4+ ward

40 Khorne Marauders, GW
38 Khorne Marauders, GW
24 Khorne Warriors, Halberd + Shield (ward save vs shooting banner)
15 Chosen, Halberd + Shield + full command (terror banner)
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
Warshrine

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got curse and vauls and opted to keep both, figuring curse would provide some nasty choices for his poorly armoured marauders whereas Shield is highly situational and easy to prioritize against. He got everything he wanted; treason, gateway and pandaemonium being the most important ones.

Deployment was like this: warhounds-eagle-warhounds-eagle-warhounds-eagle-warhounds-10 archers. At this point he was forced to commit a block and picked the Hill corner. From here, I simply refused that flank and due to size issues he had to put the warriors there as well.

Image

In my opinion, this is a massive advantage for me. I get to engage the Hellcannon super-fast with Saerith whereas the chosen have the worst matchup with poor support. Rolling for first turn, I get a '6' which, with my +2, gives me the initiative!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Everything moves up; the Archers and Olannon get the tower (with 3 floors it's perfect!) and Saerith goes for the Hellcannon. Lions shuffle to give Archers LoS to warhounds.

Magic is 5v4. I opt to throw it all at Vaul's but a miserable roll sees him easily dispel it.

Shooting is equally poor - the result of my 50+ shots only kills 2 Warhounds.

Image

:: Warriors Turn 1 ::

As predicted, the answer for my Dragon is a confused one. His Warriors + BSB reform to try and cover the Hellcannon as best as they can. His Eastern Marauders stay still, unsure of what to do. The rest advance.

Magic is 7v7 and this is a very hard phase for me: I know he'll be casting Treason on the Lions and Gateway on the Dragon. I decide that for now, the Lions being at full strength, I'm more worried about them. I thus stop the Treason but Gateway hits me for 7 hits at S8! The net result is 4 wounds (!) taken from Faeria and 1 from Saerith.

Shooting puts +1A on Chosen and his Hellcannon scatters off Faeria.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Saerith charges the Warhounds in front of the Hellcannon. This way, I get to overrun into it, thus being safe from Gateway in his following turn. The central Eagle moves to block the Warriors off. My Lions charge his Warhounds screening them while the Eagle here moves to block the Chosen, the Dragon Princes staying put. I have a plan with them, assuming he'll do what I think he will with his Sorceror Lord... The last Eagle moves up centrally.

Magic is 3v2 and a good cast sees Vaul's hit his Chosen and remove the Terror Banner.

Shooting is a bit better this time around but still nothing major.

Combat sees me win both easily, overrunning with Saerith into the Hellcannon and reforming the Lions to face the Chosen.

Image

:: Warriors Turn 2 ::

Warriors charge the blocking Eagle while his Chosen shuffle around the other one. Rest move up, his Lord taking refuge in the corner. Bingo - I'm fairly certain I have him trapped, despite of flying!

Magic is 3v4 and I thank the annulian... Only to see him roll IF Treason on the Lions!! 12 of them perish and panic is passed. Miscast has no effect due to puppet (base contact result).

Combat sees him kill the Eagle and reform. I kill the Hellcannon (phew!) before it strikes back and reform.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Saerith flies to a central position. White Lions charge the Chosen; the intervening Eagle charging past them to get the Warshrine. Naenor joins the Lions against the Chosen. The Dragon Princes now cover an insane amount of his escape-space. The last Eagle moves up to block the last. His Sorceror is now feeling very claustrophobic.

Magic is huge as I roll boxcars. I start off with 6D6 Vaul's, taking away his Chosen's ability to modify Favour rolls. I then cast curse on 6D6, getting IF. Puppet sees me take a S10 hit along with a small template. Olannon suffers a wound along with 2 Archers dying.

The Archers, thus far being ineffective, give thanks for the magical support by killing no less than 16 Marauders!

Combat sees me roll well and I kill all the Chosen before they get to strike back (mind you, he hadn't rolled Ward Save at this point). Naenor overruns, further complicating things for his Mage and the Lions reform.

Image

:: Warriors Turn 3 ::

His Western flank continue their slow advance, M4 being a real pain. His BSB leaves the unit since I placed Saerith to cover his Sorceror's escape paths, making use of the Juggernaught's superior movement. The Sorcerer decides to try a last ditch effort as he positions himself to Treason the Lions and Gateway Saerith. He chose the probably best place, being close to my Eagle instead of facing a cavalry/lion/dragon charge.

Magic is 6v4 after an annoying channel on his part. The Lions have served their purpose by now and I'm not worried by Treason any longer. I thus let it through on his 3D6 roll, saving my 4D6 for Gateway. The Lions however panic despite Naenor being nearby (!!) and run a full 12" away, carrying them through the Dragon Princes as well, who, luckily, pass their panic test. He then proceeds to IF Gateway on 3D6!! As he rolls for hits I can't believe how much that single, relatively innocent-looking 6v4 magic phase is starting to impact the game. He rolls 11 hits and I hold my breath as he ends up with strength of... 3!! Phew, that was close! No wounds are taken and as my opponent curses himself for not rolling the other way around (3 hits... auto-remove!) I feel lucky, though he was lucky to IF in the first place.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Saerith and the Dragon Princes (the latter being 16" away) combo-charge the remaining 23 Marauders. However, the Dragon Princes fail their charge. Luckily, my Lions at the very least rally. The Eagle charges his Sorceror Lord, Naenor moving for a rear-charge.

Magic is 10v6 and I cast Drain on 3D6, which he lets through. I discard the remaining 7D6 as I don't want a miscast with Olannon being 1W.

Shooting is next to useless, though to be fair it hardly matters at this point.

Combat sees Faeria breath fire for a lousy 3 hits, 2 kills. I still kill 11 though, taking 1W in return. She's now down to 2W, same as Saerith. The Eagle ties his Sorceror Lord since he only inflicts 1 wound! Perfect ;)

His Warshrine finally kills my Eagle and due to the Dragon Princes' failed charge my Lions are now very, very poorly placed...

Image

:: Warriors Turn 4 ::

His far flank keeps moving up and his Warshrine makes its charge against the Dragon Princes.

Magic is 3v4 but he gets Pandaemonium through.

In combat, my Eagle refuses to die, ensuring Naenor gets a rear charge! The Warshrine fails to deal any wounds but takes 1 in return for a tied combat. Faeria and Saerith bring the Marauders down to 5 before thunderstomp. As I roll a '1' for hits, my opponent's asking for another '1', ensuring steadfast. The Gods of Chaos have abandoned him however as I roll a '2', which means he breaks. I reform to face his BSB.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Naenor charges his Sorceror Lord, Saerith his BSB. The Lions reform (yet again) to get an angle to the Shrine. My small Archers move to block off his Marauders from helping the BSB.

Magic is 5v4 and I cast it all at Vaul's (Deja Vu anyone?). This time it gets through his defences and I remove his BSB's 4+ Ward. Panda means I take a miscast but I figure it's easily worth it as I don't want to face his return attacks, fearing for Faeria. As his puppet forces another S10 hit I pray for a '1', not because I need it particularly much but because it would be the icing on the cake. I duly get it and Olannon survives!

Shooting is again in-efficient. In combat, my Dragon Princes hold their ground. Naenor challenges his Lord (denying him easy resolution from the Eagle) and we both fail to wound eachother. With a massive -4 he loses and breaks and I run him down. I activate Loec for Saerith and despite of only getting 2 hits, both wound (1 came up a '1' but Loec does the trick!). He rolls his 4+ armour save, getting a 3 and a 4. Again, Loec is what's needed as the 4 ends up a '2', killing him before he can strike back!

Image

:: Warriors Turn 5 ::

His Marauders charge the blocking Archers, which opens up for the Hounds AND the Warriors to charge Saerith. I flee them both, which takes me very, very far away.

In combat, the Marauders easily murder the Archers while my Dragon Princes hold their ground.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

The Lions charge the Shrine and Saerith rallies. I skip magic and shooting and in combat I leave the Shrine with 1W, however it passes its test due to killing a couple of Lions.

Image

In his last turn nothing's able to charge and I kill the Warshrine!

:: Victory Points ::

I lost: 2 Eagles, 10 Archers. He lost: everything save for 5 Hounds, 38 Marauders, 24 Warriors. Bonus: General, 2 Banners, BSB. A massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

First of all, deployment was HUGE this game. Everybody believes that 8th is all about huge blocks being bigger and tougher than other huge blocks, thus beating them in a 1v1 situation. It's also common internet knowledge that Marauder hordes are very cost-effective. However, when you take a Chaos army like this, you're looking at a 30" frontage from the Marauders + Warriors alone! This is extremely easy to capitalize on with an army such as mine. Note that this isn't mainly because of the Dragon, but because of the Eagles. Though he probably could've deployed better, I would've had the advantage anyway with my superior chaff and the rocks in the middle.

I've always thought that the better the player you're up against, the more obvious your mistakes are (usually because he capitalizes on them). My opponent said, at the end of the game, that he feels he doesn't really get to show what he's capable of by playing against me. Though this is partly because I consider my army a very good counter to his, I believe this shows that I also know how to use the mobility in my army to its potential.

Magic was HUGE this game. The initial blast on Faeria left me in an awkward position - basically having taken out his Hellcannon I had a very tough job prioritizing: go into another combat against a full-strength Horde unsupported or face more Gateway blasts. In the end, I opted for Gateway seeing as combat would be pure suicide. Also, as the game unfolded, this decision allowed me to box a flyer in - not an easy task by any means! Between some irregular rolls (him IF'ing 2 times on 3D6, both times in a situation where I had 4D6 for dispelling) and good spells (curse, vaul's - him getting both Treason and Gateway) I was really impressed by how much a single wizard without any support can accomplish using the old lores. Tzeentch magic in particular is incredibly devastating for its cast value. Basically, almost any Winds roll is useful as you can safely 2D6 away stuff like Treason due to +5 to cast.

With regards to magic, I must add that I've been considering an MSU-ish approach (8 Lions flaming banner, musician, rest Swordmasters in small units) . This would greatly mitigate my weakness to Treason and similar spells, however I think that the advantages of the Lion horde outweighs this benefit. The way I play this list usually means damage per frontage is a primary consideration and MSU Swordmasters are poor here as opposed to Lions in a horde when you factor in return attacks and the 1" rule in particular.

Lastly, I'd like to ask for some feedback for the Warriors player as well as myself. He's following this blog and I'm sure he would appreciate any advice you have for him :) Of course, feel free to point out things I could've done better as well, or simply leave a comment.

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Very interesting BR. How long did it take you to make those shots?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Giladis wrote:
Very interesting BR. How long did it take you to make those shots?


I'm assuming you mean the diagrams from Battle Chronicler? I was able to import both lists (pre-configured) so I guess roughly an hour. Uploading to photobucket, actually writing it all up with formatting, lists, links etc took another hour and a half for 2.5 total, guesstimate. Might be a bit less, like ~2.

Which parts in particular did you find interesting? :)

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