Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:52 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 199
Location: caledor (louisiana, u.s.)
Just wanted to say I love to see a respected player running with a Star Dragon list. I definitely support the idea of using the Banner of Eternal Flame on your Lions. My Star Dragon list uses a block of Swordmasters with the flame banner and I feel that some sort of hard hitting unit with flaming attacks is an absolute must in a Star Dragon army. You don't want your Dragon to have to spend more than 2 rounds to kill anything unless it's at the very end of the game, so having a unit do the dirty work of clearing out regenerating enemies will free up your dragon to munch as many things as possible within the six turn limit.

_________________
Warhammer, at it's core, is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. As long as all choices in an army book fall under these categories, with their inherent strengths and weaknesses, there is balance. Imbalance occurs when the designers make a Rock that is immune to Paper. Daemon Princes, Ironblasters, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:44 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Ok, today was my last game in the Mighty Empires campaign we've had! Our success there has been mediocre - something which is mostly my fault as I've had to ditch a couple of games. Rusty's been playing well and won most of his games so I must apologize for not being a better teammates. Anyways, the last game was against Ogre Kingdoms. My opponent had 250 points more than me due to use of gold, greater empire etc. Now, I do believe that an Ogre Kingdoms army is the worst matchup for a High Elf dragon list: there are no excellent targets for the Dragon, the Ironblasters are the best cannons in Warhammer and the big monstrous infantry units don't care at all about our core, regardless of what we field (save for magic-shooting synergy lists). Was my initial assumption right or would the Lords of Caledor prevail yet again?

:: Mighty Beasts ::

His army list was roughly as follows:

Slaughtermaster, hellheart
BSB
Beasts mage

14 Ironguts (all characters went here; deployed like a horde)
10 Maneaters (poison, sniper)
4 Mournfang
2 Ironblasters

Total, 2750 points.

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 214
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total ::1017

32 Spears, Full Command and Flamebanner :: 323
31 Spears, Full Command :: 304

Core Total :: 627

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 705

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total: 2499

:: Getting ready and deploying ::

Magic was as follows: he got regen and most the other spells he wanted. Beasts got Wyssan and a spell he never cast. I got curse and courage (the worst 2 spells) and swapped curse for shield.

Scenario was Battle for the Pass. He deployed first.

The uselessness of my core against his list left me pondering what to do. I decided to use the flame-spears as an anchor on the western flank. The idea was to combine the Dragon Princes and Dragon to take out the Mournfang and the Ironblaster as soon as possible. The White Lions + Naenor would hunt the other one. Using Eagles and the Spears I intended to block the rest of his units until this was accomplished. At that point, I would evaluate whether to combo-engage him or just keep away: between 2 Ironblasters and the Mournfang I could afford to lose the Spears and Eagles and still be ahead by enough to win.

Image

He went first after I rolled a 1 and he a 4.

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 1 ::

Everything moved up. Due to my proxy for the Dragon being 50x100 both his Ironblasters could draw a proper bead on the Dragon without having to land a direct hit. They both duly hit it, the result seeing Saerith die and the Dragon take 4 wounds.

Magic was 4v6 and I dispelled his attempt at a regen-bubble.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I dual-charged Mournfang with Dragon + Dragon Princes. The Dragon was 18" away and I failed my roll, getting 1, 3 and 4. Since he was next to impassable terrain, he didn't move at all (couldn't wheel past it).

Magic saw Shield of Saphery go up on the Dragon.

Combat - princes were all wiped out and he reformed to face the blocking Eagle.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 2 ::

Mournfang charged the Eagle. The rest are fairly static as he's rather boxed in.

Magic is 6v5 and he gets regen-bubble up, Olannon unable to dispel.

Shooting sees him fluff both cannonballs.

Combat - he kills the Eagle and reforms to face my Spears.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I eye an opportunity: the Dragon has a clear overrun-path to the Ironblaster. I combo-charge the Mournfang with the Dragon and Spears. The Lions decide to march up - the Ironblaster was 13" away and I didn't want to risk them not making it. In hindsight, I should've declared the charge: I put an Eagle behind it anyway and so it would've been unable to get away.

Magic sees me get Shield up on Lions (it was 4v2).

Combat - his Mournfang lose by 3 but hold. A mistake here was me not breathing fire on his Mournfang: I was too preoccupied with having to use it in a harder combat later on.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 3 ::

Ironblaster charges the Dragon. The other pivots to face Naenor. I forgot I had placed the Eagle so close to it - with it being 1" away from him he couldn't pivot it (because he would've been within 1" of me as he pivoted around). His centre holds.

Magic is 9v7 and Wyssans gets through on his Mournfang.

Shooting sees him kill my blocking Eagle and Naenor with a grapeshot.

Combat - the Ironblaster kills the Star Dragon with its impact hits (it was down to 2W) after I fail 2 armour saves on 5+. The Spears lose badly, break and are not caught.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

White Lions charge the Ironblaster. It flees (thus refusing me a free reform) and is caught. The spear rally.

Magic 9v5 and I get both Shield and Drain through.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 4 ::

His Mournfang charge my Spears. I should've fled to refuse him a free reform but held.

Magic was unimportant as nothing was engaged save for the Mournfang who would surely beat the Spears.

Combat sees the Spears wiped out to a man.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

I move the Eagle to prevent his Maneaters from charging my Lions. The idea is to combo-charge him with the Spears + Lions. If he charges the Eagle and overruns into the Lions, the combat will not be fought until my turn - at which point I can counter-charge him with the Spears.

I fail my free reform with the Spears (I wanted to cover his escape should he try and run back) so they're left there, looking rather dumb. The Lions manage theirs and advance up.

Image

The rest of the game was as follows: he moved his Maneaters 4" behind, shot the Eagle to death and fled my charge. He lost his Ironblaster to a misfire. The result was that nothing more eventful took place.

Oh and in my Turn 5 Olannon died to a miscast, me rolling a 4 and a 3 for the result. Just thought I'd tell you since my experience with magic is pretty much always like this: you don't pick Life, you're bound to die at some point and it happens way more often than you'd think.

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up, my opponent won by 1470 victory points. Sadly, a loss for the High Elves.

:: Evaluation ::

I made a few mistakes, which, on top of the bad start, made it way harder for me. The biggest one was not breathing fire with the Star Dragon: winning that combat was crucial and an overrun into the Ironblaster could've had things looking way different - I most likely would've survived the game with it (and the Spears!). By dodging him like my initial plan was, I could've achieved a draw (the Dragon Princes were already lost).

This would've been a longshot and would've required a lot of things to go my way. However, not breathing fire certainly didn't help me. Also, failing to charge the Eastern Ironblaster with the Lions (it would've been blocked anyway and 13" is a distance I'm more likely to make than not with the +1M banner) was a poor decision.

With that being said - I do believe this is the worst matchup for me. I'm not sure if I believe this is a decent all-comers Ogre Kingdoms army, but the lack of proper 'dragon-units' (save for the Ironblasters) like Empire Knights, Dark Elf Crossbowmen, small elite infantry units etc combined with the laser-guided cannonballs makes this a really hard match for a Dragonlist. His +250 points hardly had any impact upon the game, indeed his Deathstar never saw action.

So, C&C very welcome :) I believe we learn the most from our losses and I need your help to figure out what I could've done better in this game.

Regards,
~Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 1826
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
...And that's why noone uses dragons anymore :D

No seriously. In a matchup like that, there's very little you can do. All it takes is a warmachine simply connecting with your uber-expensive Lord choice, followed by some very simple rolls, to utterly cripple your most significant combat threat. Really, it just doesn't strike me as worth it. While I think Dragons can be very solid in the right matchups (and you've highlighted some of them in your games), the bad matchups they have are really bad.

This definitely strikes me as a matchup that polishes our necessary tournament counters even further; it makes protection for an Archmage a must (there's no way most AMs could survive a round or two of shooting from that Maneater unit) while also making monstrous mounts even less viable in a take-all-comers environment.

How do you feel about the dragon list, having played this game?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:58 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Anvalous - no worries ;) Feel free to ask if there's anything else!

@Original Dragon Prince - I might consider it. Thus far, I haven't really ran into something flame-proof so to speak and I can definitely see the value. A huge downside is losing the +1M banner though, it has indeed been really good so far.

@Tethlis - I disagree: the only terrible matchup I have is Ogres. Against Empire and Dwarfs, there'll be some good targets for the Dragon. Also, they might not always have 2 cannons, indeed if Dwarfs have 2 cannons one is often flaming (almost always).

I don't think this matchup is any worse than the other High Elf lists are, relative to Puppet-WoC, Greater Daemons DoC etc. All greater daemons (bar Lord of Change) are still viable, as evident by e.g. successful ETC lists. I don't see the big difference from a Bloodthirster to a Star Dragon. If one can work, so can the other.

So basically, Ogre Kingdoms is the only really bad matchup. In this game, I was unable to use terrain at all to my advantage, I didn't get first turn, I failed an 18" charge move AND I forgot to use breath weapon. All these events could've turned the game around, at least given me a fighting chance.

So, to summarize: I knew this type of game would happen and I'm aware they'll be happening every now and then. It's a calculated risk. Until I've played Ogre Kingdoms, The Empire and Dwarf lists several times, it's hard to evalute exactly how bad the cannon-vs-dragon matchup really is. For now though, I'm still determined to make it work. If Ogre Kingdoms is the only terrible matchup, I can live with that as opposed to every DoC, Lizard, DE list being terrible matchups.

As for our mages requiring protection: be afraid, be VERY afraid. Granted, 10 Maneaters are rather uncommon and he probably brought them due to his +250 points. Still, a unit of 6-7 will make your squishy elves cry no end. The poisoned shots coupled with S4 will just murder you. Folariath's robe is a really good counter but then again, that item's useless against Mage sniping spells (Death, OnG) and all magical attacks. An option is taking the 4+ ward of course.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Posts: 1826
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Curu Olannon wrote:
I don't think this matchup is any worse than the other High Elf lists are, relative to Puppet-WoC, Greater Daemons DoC etc. All greater daemons (bar Lord of Change) are still viable, as evident by e.g. successful ETC lists. I don't see the big difference from a Bloodthirster to a Star Dragon. If one can work, so can the other.


I don't agree with that. The Daemon army, in my opinion, is much better suited to supporting a big monster than High Elves are.

A typical Daemon list can park a Greater Daemon safely in the spawn, rush forward to fight with everything else, get stuck in, have every unit on the table be point-efficient and lethal, and bring the Greater Daemon forward once threats are no longer present. They can march forward with their Core, get stuck into combat, get their abundant warmachine hunters into the backline by Turn 2, and bring the greater Daemon forward when convenient. Even without these things, the Greater Daemons themselves have lots of options to insulate them from range. Great Unclean Ones have 10 wounds, and Keepers have Siren Song to help tug a unit into combat with them on Turn 1. All of them have Ward Saves, and can call on cheap Core flying skirmishers, scouting Poisoned swarms, Movement 10 single monsters and Life Loremasters to support them.

I think we'll also see the Daemon meta involving as well. I think the Throne of Skulls TK list with 90 Poison Archers made a lot of people sit up and pay attention, and if Ogres establish themselves as a big competitor, then Ironblasters are going to be inevitable as well. This might be the army that hammers the nail in the coffin for Greater Daemons, because avoiding Empire and Dwarves (less popular tournament armies) was a calculated risk that many Daemon players could afford to take.

One thing that can really offset this, of course, is the presence of terrain. Depending on the type of terrain you expect to encounter, it isn't hard to use obstacles, buildings or other cannonball-blocking units to your advantage until you can get that big Dragon into combat.

Dragons definitely have their good matchups, but I still believe they're a calculated risk that will frequently lose big when you don't know what you'll be up against.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:19 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Maybe you're right that the Daemon army is overall better suited for a monster. However, I still believe the only huge threats to me include cannons. Against Dwarfs and Empire I'm happy when my units reach combat - same as the Daemon player.

Of course, a High Elf Dragonlord would look a lot more threatening if we had access to core such as Bloodletters. Regardless, against Ogre Kingdoms I think we're fairly even with Daemons - they don't want to get stuck against huge Irongut deathstars either.

I am curious though as to how a proper all-comers successful ogre army looks like. I imagine that a setup such as this is very vulnerable against Life lists (High Elves, MSU Lizardmen, Bretonnia primarily) and Death lists.

I'm currently considering my deployment in this game. Would it be viable to commit to the other flank? This would've allowed White Lions to support against the Mournfang and I probably could've used the Eagles to keep his Ironguts away (who were pretty boxed in anyway). Thoughts?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu,

To ease the sting of a loss, I've gone ahead and written a story of Saerith's last moments for you:

Saerith looked out over the battlefield with a steely look on his face. From his high vantage point, he had a clear view of the Ogre horde ahead.

He looked down at the elven host gathered around him. He knew each of his brethren by name, so many battles had he fought with them. There they stood, ready to follow his every order. It was a role he did not take lightly. He ordered his men to take positions, preparing for the advance of the clamouring Ogres.

With a tap of his heels, he commanded his Dragon to take up position behind a rocky outcropping. His keen elven eyes could see two strange contraptions the ogres had cobbled together - primitive, yes, but no doubt deadly. Not a threat he would take lightly.

As the Ogres approached, the ground began to tremble beneath their large, stump-like feet. Nervously, several of Saerith's soldiers looked up at him for reassurance - and they found it in his calm, steely gaze. The first glimpse they got of the creatures was as they ran, not over, but through the fence of the nearby homestead. Their approach was precisely as Saerith had predicted. He looked to his men, raised his weapon in the air, and let out a cry to rally his troops. His dragon reared up, and spread its wings wide - a majestic site - and boosted him high up in the air.

So loud was his cry, that he missed the whistling noise of an incoming cannonball.

The leaden projectile caught him squarely in the gut, and even his magical defenses couldn't stop it from shattering his innards. He dropped off the dragon, weapon still in hand.

From the dirt, he looked up to see his brave warriors fight on. He raised his hand towards the sky, and feebly said:

"not... like this..."




I think what ended up costing you the most was deployment. It seemed your primary goal was taking out those ironblasters, and while they are a threat, they're certainly not worth committing a 600 point infantry unit to it.

That horde of white lions was sorely needed on the left flank. Against an army like this, the only defense you have is offense. You said it perfectly yourself - the spears are basically useless against these guys. His lowest point unit, the mournfangs, essentially removed the spears in two rounds. The white lions, however, would pretty much eviscerate that unit. With eagle support, you can hopefully avoid taking impact his and drastically reduce his return attacks. 30 white lions are heavy cavalry's worst nightmare.

What were the Eastern spears doing on turn 1? If anything, their best target is one of those ironblasters. I haven't done the math, but even if they lose, they can still shut down the shooting for a few turns. At least at that point you're only committing 300 points, and keeping your most useful combat unit in a combat role.

This is going to be a tough matchup no matter what, and certainly the bonus 250 points didn't help. It's not your typical Ogre list either (incidentally, I play them as well :P) - a real nasty ogre list is going to have a couple units of 10 gnoblar trappers to force any aggressive hordes to lose 1/6th of their unit, and a few single model sabretusks for redirection.

They actually have some of the best chaff in the game right now, which your opponent didn't use at all, and combined with their high movement they are a real threat.

Having said that, I don't think you didn't stand a chance, I think you maybe just fell victim to what I lovingly call "Salamander Fever" - or in this case it was "Ironblaster Fever".

Thanks again for the report Curu, they're always a pleasure to read!

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 6:35 pm
Posts: 179
Another list-type question for the group based on Curu's current list...

My local gamering crew usually plays between 2k and 2.5k with a slight edge at 2200 due to me driving that point level for Adepticon each year. If I were to take this list down to 2200, do you think I could be effective running the moon dragon with a prince still decked out, or is the star dragon important enough to limit our prince to 30pts of gear?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:56 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@Brewmaster_D - nice story, I had a good read :)

As for deployment, I believe you're right. I was too afraid of his Deathstar but it was boxed in. My Lions might've been able to beat the Mournfang AND the Maneaters, with a bit of luck. Spears with Olannon were shuffling to draw his Maneaters further East. The idea here was to leave them stranded in the middle, being combo-charged. I didn't want to march the Spears up as this might've presented the Maneaters with 2 good opportunities: snipe the mage and assault the unit.

Could you list what you consider to be a fairly strong OK all-comers list? I'm just curious to see how it's put together ;)

@Anvalous - I believe you have to downgrade the Dragon. Even at 2400 it is very, very tough to get the Prince decent equipment if you want the Star Dragon. 30 points is nothing and having him somewhat protected is crucial as his offensive capabilities far outweigh the difference between a Moon Dragon and a Star Dragon. I think the setup I have here, arguably swapping out Talisman of Loec for The Other Trickster's Shard, is ideal for a Prince - also at 2200 points :)

Next game will likely be Sunday in a week and a half. I might face Dark Elves again, though I'm not sure yet.

For those of you who've tried Dragons - are there any other builds than Armour of Caledor / Vambraces of Defense that are useful?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Interesting game v Dark Elves. I agree that you should have been more conservative with movement advance in order to maximise combined arms. HE units don't often fare well on their own. Spears are pretty much steadfast support units, very expensive speedbumps, and poor tarpits.

I would reconsider having flaming banner on the White Lions, even despite the flame ward characters. Why? Most regen monsters are high toughness, which are perfectly matched to the high strength of your WLs and very poorly matched to the S3 of your spears.

Nice move to reform the WLs to 4-wide since they are steadfast anyway. But given your list as it stood, bringing the Prince over would have helped. I sent my WLs solo up against a Chaos War Altar, they did beat it, but with 50% casualties, which really should be avoided in such an elite unit. Backing them up would have resolved things quicker and with less loss of life.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:16 am 
Offline
Centurion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Posts: 3298
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I think you'll find very shortly that the dual ironblasters is restricted/comped in tournaments that run the ETC style restrictions, I read about two players that placed in the top 5 of some UK tournaments recently and both lists included them and they made a real difference.

The ability to advance under fire with the most accurate warmachine in the game and then either grapeshot or get into combat yourself is pretty tough.

Thanks for the report Curu, perhaps it was just always going to be 'one' of those games.

Certainly not a typical list (besides the dual ironblasters) though, perhaps some sabretusks for chaff and gnoblars to taste and shuffling around the ironguts with bulls.

_________________
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Curu Olannon wrote:
Yes, the house rules we play with are different. This point about the 8th edition was brought up when we started the Mighty Empires campaign at some point and it was agreed that the margin of victory needed according to the BRB was too big. As such, I'm pretty sure the house rules we're playing with means that anything above ~150 is a victory. If anyone tried to correct you due to the BRB then it's either someone new (every game I've played have calculated VP different from the BRB) or someone who just didn't want to lose :)


I don't think anyone's addressed this but its been FAQ'd. The margin for win is now 100 points more than your opponent. If you score double or more then its a crushing victory.

Btw, I'm finding it enjoyable to follow a 'classic' dragon list.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Curu Olannon wrote:
@Brewmaster_D - nice story, I had a good read :)

For those of you who've tried Dragons - are there any other builds than Armour of Caledor / Vambraces of Defense that are useful?

star dragon lord (small points allowance for items) with charmed shield, potion of toughness.but its a "one round" thing. if you dont break him then you are in trouble


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 135
Quote:
For those of you who've tried Dragons - are there any other builds than Armour of Caledor / Vambraces of Defense that are useful?

My guy has Vambraces, Charmed Shield and a lance - cheap and fairly effective, though the lack of S6 after the charge does hurt the prince. Of course, you can counter it by giving him the Ogre Blade, which fits in points-wise with the Charmed Shield/Vambraces combo - can't fit it in your lord allowance if you go Star rather than Moon dragon however. You could fit this combo:
Star Dragon, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Vambraces, Sword of Might, Other Tricksters Shard.
You get a 3+ rerollable with the 4+ ward and 2+ v flaming. The prince goes down to S5, on the plus side he has magical attacks so ethereals and forest spirits aren't a problem. And the OTS is always handy.

_________________
My Caledor Army Log - Double Dragons!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:07 pm 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: The city of Spires
I was wondering. In the batt-rep, turn 1 when the ogre cannons shoot the dragon. What was the impassible terrain the dragon was behind, and wouldn't it have stopped the cannonballs? Cannons can't bounce trough impassible terrain if said terrain would normally be able to block a cannon ball. So it might have offered some protection to the dragon.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:08 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@ether_drake - I will likely try out the flaming Lions. A lot of people have suggested it now and I'm definitely seeing it myself. This allows me to give a unit of spears the Gleaming Pennant. Since Naenor is flying I believe this can be a valuable investment, allowing me to place them on a flank with decent reliability.

@Jimmy - My initial reaction is that making Ironblasters 0-1 is pushing it too far. It's not like Ogres can take a lot of artillery, but then again it's not like they need Ironblasters to counter monsters either. One thing's for sure, it's WAY undercosted. Could you link me some of the relevant threads you were talking about? Also, a reference all-comers list would be nice :)

@zerocool - the Charmed Shield is interesting. The Potion of Toughness is unfortunately not an option - it removes Talisman of Loec and doesn't help against cannonballs.
'
@tethlis the slayer - how does Charmed Shield work with cannonballs? Does it block just the part of the hit that affects the Prince or does it block the cannonball completely? The thing I'm finding is that few people even bother attacking the Prince - between his re-rollable armour save and a 4+ ward he's just that tough. Besides, the Dragon's usually hurting more.

@Rod - the impassable terrain indeed would've stopped the cannonballs. However, a combination of the facts that my proxy was on a 50x100 base and the mobility of the Ironblasters ensured they could both trace lines to my base without being hindered by the impassable terrain. If I had been on a 50x50 base the western Ironblaster would've been blocked.

So there will be a little shuffling of points here: I'm going to give the Lions the flaming banner and review a couple of other options. The most interesting though is the Charmed Shield but how it interacts with cannonballs is crucial. A quick google search didn't reveal much. Glancing over the rules didn't convince me either. On one hand, I believe the cannonball is 'one hit' so that it would be blocked. It's hard with the special rules for monster mounts though.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu,

I think those maneaters would have been tough to draw out of position - They've got ranged weapons, so they'll be pretty happy sitting there and letting you come to them.

The new Ogre army list book is actually a really diverse book, so they have lots of effective builds. I don't have my book in front of me, but a competitive list that I would build would include the following:

Slaughtermaster, 4+/4++, stubborn crown
BSB, Defensive build
Firebelly, Hellheart

2 units of 8 ish ironguts, one with the standard of discipline
2 units of 10 gnoblars with trappers

2 units of 4 leadbelchers
4 mournfangs w/ Dragonhide banner, Ironfists (Reroll all 1's for to hit, to wound and AS on the turn they charge, as well as a S3 breath weapon that gives ASL for that turn - yeesh)

Sabretusk
Sabretusk
Sabretusk

1x Ironblasters

Something like that at least. I'm pretty sure that comes out to around 2500 points.

Essentially you've got the ironblaster to deal with big nasties, 8D6 shots per turn coming out of those leadbelchers (Also known as elf/human shredders), and a *really* hard hitting unit of cavalry. While you're trying to approach through their 5 chaff units, you're taking casualties from shooting and pesky gnoblar trappers, and when you do get there, you've got hard as nails characters and breath weapons and ASL and a hellheart blowing up your mages to deal with.

Look right to you?

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:32 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Thanks for the reference list Brewmaster! I'm contemplating making a "competitive army threat matrix" guide, basically detailing every army in Warhammer and their most common tournament build(s). I find that time and time again, I do the same job over and over when it comes to analyzing lists: I try and think of how it plays against various opponents. To do this more effectively, I believe a threat matrix would be a very valuable tool. Can't wait for christmas!

Anyways - to the list you posted in particular: even with 1 Ironblaster more I believe I would've been way better equipped to fight this. This is more 'metagame' appropriate as my flyers have lots of good targets and my Lions can go head to head against just about anything.

I'm currently contemplating minor list changes - most importantly putting the flaming banner on the Lions. I will have the revised list up shortly for your discussion!

As for modelling - I got my Carmine Dragon on Saturday, however due to an exam today I haven't gotten around to doing too much yet. I've found that a bit of cutting, greenstuff, Silver Helms legs and a Bladelord upper body will look pretty cool. The model of the Dragon is very impressive, the level of detail is insane and it most certainly does the Forgeworld pictures justice. On Thursday we're having a modelling/painting night over at Rusty's place. I might be able to get a couple of pictures then. I assume that putting the thing together could take some time as there are some details I'm not sure about and it's probably going to involve epoxy glue, pinning parts and forming greenstuff.

I believe that playing High Elves like this highlights how poor our core units really are: without magical support they're next to useless in so many situations. Though you can argue from a game-perspective that this is necessary given our magical flexibility, it most definitely does not suit well with our Lore. Granted, we have ASF and above-average stats overall, but compared to the stalwart Spearelves holding hordes of Orcs and Archers raining death on the Druchii it makes no sense. I'm becoming more and more inclined to trying out all-archer core with this setup actually, despite my initial assumptions and analysis. Will have to play more though, especially against Skaven, Empire and Dwarfs, before I make up my mind here.

Regards,
~Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 135
Quote:
how does Charmed Shield work with cannonballs? Does it block just the part of the hit that affects the Prince or does it block the cannonball completely?
Sadly, it just blocks the hit on the Prince. On the other hand, I still find it a hugely useful item - while the prince has a ward (unlike the Dragon) its still only a 4+ and with only 3 wounds any war machine that ignores armour has a pretty good chance of taking him out in one shot. The Dragon, with 6/7 wounds, I find more survivable as he can usually take a cannon ball or two and survive - and as you saw in your battle, even with just 1-2 wounds left he can still cause plenty of carnage to your opponents army. I've seen people argue the charmed shield isn't that great as it can be 'removed' by normal (BS) shooting before the war machines target him, but I personally think this is overstated - noone wants to waste shooting on something it will bounce off, particularly when an elf army with its low toughness and lightly armoured infantry has lots of juicy targets that are far more tempting. Whats more, plenty of BS shooting has 24" range, are move-or-fire weapons and so on so often can't effectively target the prince anyway due to terrain, positioning etc.

_________________
My Caledor Army Log - Double Dragons!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:36 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Are you sure about that with regardes to the Charmed Shield? Has it been FAQ'd or something?

I just discovered a list that is surprisingly similar to mine. Apparantly someone took it to the Australian Masters. The list was as follows:

Prince (599 pts)
General; Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Star Dragon; Temakador's Gauntlets; Dawnstone

Noble (226 pts)
Battle Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Shield; Great Eagle; Helm of Fortune; Guardian Phoenix

Mage (175 pts)
Level 2 Upgrade; High Magic; Annulian Crystal

10 Archers (125 pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer;

10 Archers (125 pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer;

30 Archers (365 pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Hawkeye; Banner of Eternal Flame

23 White Lions of Chrace (405 pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Guardian; The Amulet of Light; Banner of Swiftness

5 Dragon Princes (160 pts)
Musician

5 Dragon Princes (160 pts)
Musician

Great Eagle (50 pts)

Total Roster Cost: 2390

Basically I would've thought that he'd seen my list since they're extremely similar, but then again it's no wonder if two players arrive at the same conclusion with regards to an army when the approaches are based around the same central element (the Dragon). Do note however that he went for the all-archer core: I imagine that in games like the one I had against Dark Elves this is a very good setup.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Curu Olannon wrote:
Prince (599 pts)
General; Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Star Dragon; Temakador's Gauntlets; Dawnstone


Interesting load-out on the Prince. Can anyone with better mathammer tell whether a 3+ re-rollable/5+ ward is better than a 4+ re-rollable/4+ ward? The latter would be case with Vambraces of Defence. Frankly, with the spare points remaining he could buy a Dragonhelm for a bump to his armour save to get 3+/4+, Dragon Armour would be worth keeping for the protection to the mount.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:01 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Mathhammer, let's see:
Vs S3 you don't get the ward save. In this case, it's fairly equal, both save around 90%.
Vs S4 the ward kicks in and we're looking at 4+/4+/5++ - a net total of 83% saved I believe. Vambraces are 5+/5+/4++ which is somewhat worse, I believe around 73% is saved.
Vs S5 you're looking at 5+/5+/5++ vs 6+/6+/4++ - roughly 70% vs 65%
Vs S6 it's 6+/6+/5++ vs 4++ - 46% vs 50%

In other words, the Gauntlets are slightly better against S4 and S5 and losing out against S6+. It's not much of a difference though, the biggest being @S4 and frankly I don't see the Dragon fearing a lot of S4 units/attacks in general. Personally I'd rather take Vambraces. By the way, the price of these setups are identical, as such Dragonhelm wouldn't be affordable. As you mentioned, having the ward for your mount is really good, too.

The fact that this list was taken to a rather big tournament really has me intrigued with regards to the Archers. Is it possible that this setup is superior to all-out Spearelves? I've considered the few matches I've had as well - all Archer core against Daemons might've worked as I could've just stayed back. Against Dark Elves it would've been superior to the Spears while against Ogres I'm not sure.

I guess that my initial thoughts about the list was as follows:
- rush everything up the board
- get 'stuff' stuck in combat
- win decisively and go next

What I've experienced mostly in-game though is as follows:
- try and crush one flank
- hold the other flank
- use flyers to help crushing one flank first, then sweep to the middle last

In essence, I thought the army would play more aggressive than I've done, so far. I believe that the playstyle I'll mostly be playing is similar to Seredain's - in which the Prince famously combo-charges with just about everything else in the last few turns of the game.

Let's evaluate a couple of matchups:
- against Dwarfs, who mostly wield great weapons and have S5 artillery, the difference is non-existant. The extra wounds of the Spears might be better, but the Archers stand a good chance of pinging off a war machine or two before I get there
- against MSU armies, I can castle up the infantry, effectively denying any serious harassment
- against other Elves, the all-Archer core is deadly

Lastly, Olannon now has a safer place to hide and Curse of Arrow Attraction goes from useless to valuable.

I'm guessing a certain Brewmaster is fairly happy right about now, his persistence at least convincing me to playtest this! It's almost tempting to take a Shadow Seerstaff mage for Withering and Mindrazor, turning the Lions into PG and grab the Banner of Sorcery ;) All of a sudden I see a lot of potential builds with the Dragon whereas I initially only saw one. I guess that's a good thing!

First thing's first though - do you believe the All-Archer core is better than Spears or at least worth trying out here?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am
Posts: 394
Hi Curu!
I play a lot of friendly games, nothing really competitive, so take what I say in light of this... I've tried both spears and all archer core. To be honest I think that spears are better in most lists, simply because you end up with more models on the field, but the amount of firepower you can get wholly in core is quite surprising, and while it doesn't do a great deal of damage, I find the psychological effect on the opponent to be rather helpful.

In regards to your dragon list... Running all archers means you could get caught out without enough ranks to break steadfast - even in 5 ranks (assuming you go the archer horde) you 'only' have 6 ranks - less once you take casualties. Sometimes I think you may find the loss of the extra ranks hurting you, since your army now depends on breaking the opponent in as few turns as possible, I think that you need as many ranks for as long as possible. But I guess time would tell.

Consider also that there are some armies where more shooting than you currently have is not entirely worth it - think warriors, WE, and skaven.

There is also the difference in save. Whilst not amazing, there have been times where I have been thankful for at least the CHANCE to save my spearmen with their paper armour. Unless you're planning on forking out for armour on archers (Which I would recommend against) you lose the opportunity entirely.

On the whole, I would say try it, definitely. I think that it is definitely a change of pace that most high elf players should at least try once or twice.

_________________
"They thought we had all but died out, but as we take to the skies our foes will tremble with fear, for they will know the True Dragon Princes have returned."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Thanks for the Mathammer.

What I meant by spare points was that his list was at 2390, and assuming that 2400 was the limit he would have 10 points spare for a Dragonhelm.

On spears vs archers: well as Cython has pointed out, you need to weigh up how much static combat res matters to your army. In terms of killing power the spears and archers are about even (gross number of attacks possible, likelihood of killing), but of course the spears will fall like wheat to any melee attacks, especially from the front facing. The archers at least can kill without immediate reprisal.

The rest of your army is quite mobile, White Lions somewhat excepted, but all the rest are deadly. Having the weaker archers sit back may present a tempting target for points or a distracting harassment.

If you want to break steadfast with an archer army then you will probably have to rely on combo charges and ASF to do the work.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:32 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7281
Location: The city of Spires
ether_drake wrote:
What I meant by spare points was that his list was at 2390, and assuming that 2400 was the limit he would have 10 points spare for a Dragonhelm.

Except that you can only have 25% in lords. At 2400 this is 600 and the prince is already at 599.

I think the archers vs spear debate is one that can only be solved on the table. You can theory hammer about it all day and both have reasons for and against taking them. Just try and see how they work.

But, since we're theory hammering anyway, here is my oppinion.

- Steadfast isn't the biggest of issues. Yes, you need a few ranks to remove steadfast. However, with the amount of kills the dragon + the rest of the army generates, I think that 2 or 3 ranks is enough (similar to what Seredain achieves with his combo charges). This then doesn't matter between spears or a bigger archer unit

- Kills. Yes, the spears will kill a bit more with 5 attacks extra (assuming you charge), but does 1 extra kill matter wen the dragon eats half the unit?

- You can't volley fire when the archers move. And moving them is something you might want to do. With all archer core at 2400 you get something like 50 archers. You don't want all of them to sit back and only shoot all game.

I tried all archer core with my dragon and I liked it. They manage to get off some wounds here and there, taking out thing like small redirectors (and one memorable OK ironblaster in 1 turn...), which can be a nightmare for your dragon support units. They don't want to get bogged down when they need to help out the dragon.

I've also been thinking about LSG in this kind of list. I know they are a bit a controversial choice. But in 600 points you can get something like 25 LSG and 20 archers (in two units of 10). This might give you the best of both worlds (instead of the worst as is sometimes the case with LSG).

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 135
While I'm sure all archers work for some lists, for me the main benefit with spears is I know exactly what I want to do with them. I don't have to worry about whether I should leave them wide to get more shots off, or reform deep to face a potential charge. I don't need to worry about whether I face them towards a good shooting target on the flanks, or keep them facing the enemy's main battleline. I don't need to think about whether it would be better to advance them (reducing or preventing their shooting) in order to threaten a flank charge or prevent the enemy turning to face my advancing cavalry/dragon, or leave them stationary. With Spears I find it much more simple to decide what I want the unit to perform - either advance them forward to support my first wave of attack (so they have to make an unwelcome decision about whether to offer their flank to my advancing infantry or my fast hitty flankers) or hold back to draw the enemy forward and hold them in place while my fast destructive elements deal with their primary targets before returning to help out the spears (where the ability to get ranks as cheaply as possible is vital, as I want them to keep steadfast and hold the enemy as long as possible).

While in terms of the number of casualties they provide over the course of the battle the archers may be superior, I'm convinced that for a mobile list that wants to get stuck in the fact the spears are purely a combat + ranks unit rather than a unit expected to perform a variety of roles really helps them shine as you don't need to be constantly compromising one of their roles in order to perform the others.

_________________
My Caledor Army Log - Double Dragons!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Curu Olannon wrote:
I'm guessing a certain Brewmaster is fairly happy right about now, his persistence at least convincing me to playtest this!


Haha! I'll be happy if it works - there's still the potential here for me to be the laughing stock of ulthuan :P

Truth is, with such a different style of list, it deserves to be at least tested. In this respect, I think you're taking the perfect approach - systematically isolating the variables and seeing how the changes effect the overall game.

Like Rod said, I think it will become very obvious once a few games have been played.

Looking forward to your next battle report!

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Brewmaster_D wrote:
I think you're taking the perfect approach - systematically isolating the variables and seeing how the changes effect the overall game.


Yup. Do it in the name of Sciencehammer, man!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:13 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Thanks for the feedback everyone. It indeed does appear that I'll have to test them both in order to make up my mind. Initially, my thoughts were that the Spears were more valuable due to their ability to put pressure along with the Dragon. What it does look like now however is that I'll mostly play a strong flank-anvil centre kind of game, in which case Archers are probably better.

So, I've decided to test all-Archer core first and see where I go from there. List modifications will come shortly. For now, I'm happy to tell you that I've assembled most of the Dragon and its rider. Some greenstuffing remains (especially with regards to the rider) but you get the general idea.

Here's the Dragon without the rider, frontal shot:
Image

Here's the Dragon from the side/rear:
Image

Lastly, the Dragon with the rider:
Image

Note: I didn't glue the wings as I'm contemplating trying to magnetize them for easier transport

I'm very happy with how the Bladelord part turned out. The Silver Helm legs, not so much (had to cut them quite a bit to make it all fit). I do believe however that some more greenstuff here (perhaps have something underneath him like a robe) and most importantly the painting will help this out.

I'm very happy with the model and I would happily recommend it for anyone else considering running a Dragon. Piece of advice though, I pinned it rather heavily during the modelling. Assembling it can be a bit of a pain and I spent several hours and quite a bit of pinning/greenstuffing to get it done. Lastly, the base is a bit bigger than 50x50mm so I had to cut off parts of it to make it fit.

Updated list will follow shortly. I'll probably play this Sunday, in which case I'll feature all-archer core :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
That's a lovely dragon. Definitely more respectable than the standard elf dragon with its stumpy forelimbs. GW dragon anatomy has been pretty inconsistent over the years.

Just wondering that it might look a bit more 'realistic' if the rider is positioned further back just over the shoulder blades as that's a more stable area anatomically (less turbulence as the dragon threshes its neck and gulps down gobbos).

Some other companies have put riding platforms on their dragons so that you can place an infantry 'rider' there too. Could be achievable with a chariot carriage and some struts if you were so inclined.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group