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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
I'll have to give the cover rules a once over when I get home. Seems to me an obstacle could be used to describe anything preventing me from shooting a target. If it is the case, then dabber you're correct, there might as well be no large target rule.


Obstacles are defined very tightly, it's things like hedges and walls. The Large target rule isn't entirely useless... it gives the general an 18" inspiring presence range.

Besides, that aint a bad thing considering we're looking at games with a Star Dragon. Whatever benefit the Keeper gets from the rule, so does the Star Dragon. So it all evens out :)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Your responses make a lot of sense. I guess I was wondering if the eagles were necessary, or could a cheaper unit of DPs do a similar job (see your answers above) and save a few points.


How would I run this list differently? To be honest, I have no idea. There seems to be something bouncing around in my head about the similarity between the ealge nobles and the DPs that, for some strange reason, doesn't make sense to me, and I don't know why. Perhaps it's my love of themes, but I was thinking of a few flying units covering a marching wall of infantry as it advanced across the field. I initially thought that the points could be better spent elsewhere than on the NEagles and DPs, but now that I go back to the list I can't really find a better spot to use them, without fundamentally changing the list.

The spears seem fine (i'll stay out of the archer/spear debate), and can reliably act as a good anvil/steadfast unit around which the fast units can run (Dragon, NEagles and DPs). I am neurotic about the 32 (loving 35 myself), but if you handle not having full movement trays than it's OK =). I was initially thinking that perhaps 2 RBTs and a group of archers would be more beneficial to your units, but then I started thinking about the weakness of the NEagles, and the spears can help prevent the R&F guys from doing too much damage, so I went back to CC core.

Interestingly enough, I then started to think if the Great Eagles are needed, I admit that they probably can help direct dangerous units away from the more fragile infantry and help you keep the mobility advantage going for as long as possible, but can the NEagles do that? Again, I think the answer is no, they are needed, but I'm just brainstorming really. I'm rather interested in the list, and wonder what permuations there are that can act as well on the tabletop while at the same time not rely on 1200 pts in characters, but I can't really come up with any right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:26 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Keeper moving up 20 and using siren song on anything. Preferably archers. It's pretty hard to block a long line of archers from charging unless you use two eagles, which would also partially block your shooting. If nothing else, I would use Siren song on an eagle to be in combat and safe from shooting. I would also move up every other unit.


Something just occurred to me - if you siren song-ed an eagle, what's to stop it from just choosing the flee option, leaving the daemon in a very vulnerable position? Or any chaff unit that isn't in immediate risk of running off the board for that matter? I'd certainly sacrifice an eagle for a similar positioning advantage at any other point in the game.

(sorry for the mini derail)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Something just occurred to me - if you siren song-ed an eagle, what's to stop it from just choosing the flee option, leaving the daemon in a very vulnerable position?


Nothing, which is why it would be the last option I would go for :) . As discussed earlier it's pretty hard to completely block a charge from an archer unit though. The other option would be to jump the Keeper to the next cover and still be able to charge in the next turn. LoS across impassable terrain and M10 lets him do that kind of stuff.

This is also very relevant for the star dragon. Some armies sport so much shooting that running straight ahead isn't an option, he has to skip from cover to cover. Won't help vs Stone throwers, but will at least block cannon balls and make him harder to hit with bolt throwers.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:41 pm 
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@Brewmaster_D - the ETC size rules are as follows (at least this is what we're using):
Quote:
Model size chart:
0: Swarms - models of this size never block line of sight or give cover.
1: Infantry, War Beasts, War Machines
2: Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts, Chariots, Unique without the Large Target rule
3: Monsters, all Large Targets

Models "see" in their front 1/4 zone. Line of Sight is blocked by models that are equal to or larger than both the model whose line of sight we are checking and its target.

Hills are size two for each level (so a 3-step hill is size 6). Models standing on hills add the hill size to their own size. Buildings and large rocks always block line of sight completely.

Skirmishers never block LoS, and are seen/give cover in accordance with their size on the chart. Skirmishers formed up for combat block Line of Sight normally.

Cover is provided, according to the normal rules, by units that are one size smaller than both the shooter and the target (one size smaller, same size or larger in the case of skirmishers giving cover).


Impassable terrain is by default size 2. As such, a Keeper (or Star Dragon) behind size 2 terrain gets a cover save. Does this system make sense to you? Avoiding strategic modelling is the main appealing aspect for me.

@Stormie - you're correct about obstacles. Also, the inspiring presence 18" is important. Apart from this, large target isn't what it used to be.

@Tankertruck - I'm sure there are plenty of builds for a Star Dragon that doesn't necessarily involve complete mobility. For example, you could run him as the only flyer in your army backed up by heavy infantry (or cavalry) focus. Most of the time though you don't want to leave home without a mage (for magic defense) and a bsb. Even taking very cheap choices here easily run you up to at least 900 points in characters. As such, I'm investing something in the vicinity of 300 points more than I 'have to' in characters. A pure elite infantry unit replacing these points would be 20 strong. Would 20 elite infantry give this list more utility than the added points I've invested in characters? I think not, but I could be wrong.

As for going with 2RBT and Archers - I believe you'd have a serious issue against shooting lists: what do you do if your Dragon dies early? You can't outshoot a proper shooting list, at least not without an Archmage. As such, you have an inbuilt weakness (a pretty bad one, too!) against a lot of lists. As the list stands now, I can afford the Dragon dying early - assuming that its death means the other units can do their job relatively unscathed.

Lastly - great eagles. I would never leave home without them, especially not when movement domination is crucial. I would love to have even more of them but I cannot find something else to drop. If you look through my old reports, you'll see some excellent examples of their use. In particular, I'd like to highlight a couple of games against Rusty (his Treemen had a couple of really hard situations in our first game) and my latest game against Ogre Kingdoms. In the latter example, they simple speedbumped his Bulls and Deathstar respectively, giving me time to accomplish what I wanted.

@rusty - point about impassable terrain very valid! I've been considering this previously (at the time when I was evaluating the viability of this kind of list) and your point is dead on. With a flyer, I also don't have to angle him according to the terrain piece (I can just charge over it), additionally I have the Swiftstride special rule for more reliable charges.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:25 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Impassable terrain is by default size 2. As such, a Keeper (or Star Dragon) behind size 2 terrain gets a cover save. Does this system make sense to you? Avoiding strategic modelling is the main appealing aspect for me.


Makes perfect sense to me actually. A lot more so than the true line of sight nonsense that we currently have. I'm totally with you about the modelling - I don't think one aspect of the hobby should hinder or improve another. A player shouldn't be rewarded for making a dwarven slaneesh daemon as much as a player shouldn't be punished for fielding a tall dragon model.

rusty wrote:
The other option would be to jump the Keeper to the next cover and still be able to charge in the next turn. LoS across impassable terrain and M10 lets him do that kind of stuff.


This is very true for any army fielding a big nasty that you don't want to be subjected to a lot of missile fire, and extremely relevant to not only the Daemon but also the Prince, as has been mentioned.

Having said that, there's only so much terrain on the board, so the approach would be fairly predictable, given the restrictions - he doesn't want to get in combat with the lions, doesn't want to siren song an eagle or the Dragon Princes and really wants to position himself on an unblocked end of the archers. There's only 2 spots on the board he wants to be (the two ends of the archers), and he needs to be in cover the entire way there. Despite movement 10, this is a tall order with a Dragon flying around.

Even with a -2 modifier, the archers put a wound on it a turn, making it easy pickings for the prince with the talisman of loec.

Please don't mistake my zeal about the archers as being pessimistic about your list - I'm genuinely excited about how it performed. One of my first models that I painted that I was truly proud of was the High Elf dragon model, so I've just been itching for an excuse to field it. I'm merely arguing the finer points in an attempt to try to hone the most competitive list possible out of this setup.

D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Why are you guys convinced the Star Dragon can take down the Keeper? Keeper should have Torment Blade, Allure, and Soul Hunger, in addition to Siren Song.

First off, you have to pass a leadership test to attack, without the BSB (range) and at at least -2 (maybe more with spells flying around). Prince odds of attacking are 72%. Assuming he passes and activates talisman, 3 hits, 2.25 wounds, nets 2. Without Loec, you do .67 wounds a round.
Keeper swings at Star Dragon. 7 attacks, re-rolling, means 6.22 hits, 3.11 wounds (4.67 with Soul Hunger). Now the dragon needs TWO leadership tests to attack (torment and allure), so his odds of attacking are only 52%. If the Dragon does get to attack, then 3.5 hits, 2.33 wounds, 1.56 unsaved.

Accounting for the odds you can attack at all, your expected damage with Loec is 2.25 wounds, against the 4.67 taken by the Star Dragon. Assuming you pass all your attack tests, your expected damage rises to 3.56, but you are still down by 1! Charging and the ideal case means you likely wouldn't lose combat, but if anything goes wrong you are testing on a 7 or lower with no re-roll! The Prince might take down the Keeper in later rounds (assuming he keeps passing leadership), but the Star Dragon is dead round 2.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:51 pm 
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@Brewmaster_D - do you have pictures of your Dragon online?

@dabber - first of all, the Keeper didn't have those items. Second, why can't the BSB be nearby? Third, with it being my turn, chances are Shield of Saphery goes on the Dragon. Lastly, it's unlikely that I'll send in the Dragon on its own. I can flank it with an Eagle or Noble (BSB in flank gives +2 combat resolution). Also, Talisman of Loec affects the Keeper's save against the Star Dragon's attacks. Long story short - Prince on Star Dragon vs Keeper is all about context. Bloodthirster is a worse matchup though, mostly due to his ability to fly. The Keeper can be boxed in, as well as denied a charge opportunity by a single Eagle.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:07 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Why are you guys convinced the Star Dragon can take down the Keeper?


The context in which I made that claim was that the archers had already had a turn or two to put a wound on him. Even with hard cover and long range, the average is still 1 wound per turn from 54 archers.

Also, after rereading the item description for talisman of loec, what Curu mentioned about it was true - any attacks after he does a wound will need their wards rerolled. Seems to me based on the wording, this would apply to the Dragon's wounds as well. So between the prince and the Dragon, there is a good chance of doing the 4 wounds necessary to pop the keeper. If in doubt, breathe fire on him.

I think it's reasonable to assume that an experience player would position their BSB nearby for that crucial turn as well.

In the end if the 370 point dragon gets popped to take out a 500+ point Greater Daemon, I see that as a good tradeoff. Unless he can then take the Prince, he's still gotten no points from you.

I don't know enough about the Daemon army without the book in front of me, but isn't the Keeper base attacks 6? Does he get an additional hand weapon to get to 7, or is it due to one of the gifts?

D

Edit: Curu beat me to it :P

Edit 2: No, no picture, but I can certainly take one and put it up. Pretty standard paint scheme on the GW model, but hey, it was one of my first big models so at the time I was like "wow, this is the best model ever!"

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@dabber - first of all, the Keeper didn't have those items.
Ahh. Huge difference. You listed him as "various upgrades", so I assumed.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Second, why can't the BSB be nearby?
Because he either Sirened the BSB to his death earlier, or Sirens the dragon when the BSB cannot get close enough. I've seen it done. You were not making a point to keep them together, so the potential is there.
This Keeper was played too agressively for any of that though. Since you have no shooting, the Daemons likely do better in this game if they play more conservative and give their magic advantage more time to be felt.


The reality is Daemons have stuck me is situations of no good choices so often that I tend to have a negative attitude. I know they have a way out of whatever I can come up with with High Elves. I'll try to stick more to your facts in the future though, not my frustrations.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:13 pm 
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Ah of course you didn't know about his layout :) Sorry about that, thought I had included it in his army description. Fact is, it didn't matter at all ;)

As for Sirening my BSB, it won't work. I will keep my Flyers faced backwards until I'm ready to set up. The 2 Eagles will be used to block off my combat blocks, disabling song on them. In short, getting an effective Siren Song here is very hard: he might've been able to do it if he'd have gotten Turn 1 with his Keeper but that would leave him stranded and thus vulnerable to counter-charges.

As for Daemons having an answer to everything we can bring - I totally agree. The only problem they have is when we can magic dominate with BoH + BoS. Against this combination, Daemons are especially weak: any augmented combat will see them suffer horrible losses. The point is though that Daemons, like everyone else, have to follow the metagame. As such, I believe a Star Dragon list can play more effectively against it than a normal infantry-based force. If you take a look at the top ETC countries and their respective Daemons lists, you can see that they have some horribly inefficient choices against my army because of the all-comers environment they're forced to play in. Though it may seem rusty's tailoring, he's just trying to develop an all-comers Slaanesh-based list. This incidentally happens to be very powerful against High Elves giving me all the more trouble ;) As for facts vs frustrations - I understand you completely. At the moment, Daemons are definitely the most frustrating army to play against. At one point (I believe it was when the Star Dragon passed his break test on 3-) I had a really poor round of combat. I ended up wounding 4 with thunderstomp and rusty saved them all. Granted, I shouldn't complain after actually passing the break test, but this is a very typical scenario for Daemons. Essentially, it's the opposite of what we have: whereas anything can fail for us and totally ruin our plans, anything can just 'work' a lot better for Daemons, turning a bad situation around. Naturally, being on the other end feels frustrating.

My Ogre opponent hasn't replied yet so next game might be against Dark Elves on Sunday. Looking forward to facing them for my first time in 8th! Back in 6th they were the army I faced the most, but our books were very, very different back then.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:11 pm 
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I've been contemplating a few things the past couple of days (as usual). First of all, I have to work in the Amulet of Light in here somehow. As I was tinkering about with this item, I had an idea for a re-structuring. Essentially, I started thinking about the armies that present the biggest threat to my flyers. As far as I can tell, they are as follows:
- Empire
- Dwarfs
- Ogre Kingdoms
In no particular order. What I do need against these armies is reliable ways to win combat, even if my flyers are badly damaged. Against most (all?) other armies, I consider my flyers almost unkillable. Of course, there are a few threats out there, but most of the common solutions (e.g. poisoned missiles, searing doom) are highly ineffective against me.

As such I'm wondering whether to drop Cael. Naenor would thus have the following equipment:
- Dragon Armour
- Shield
- Great Weapon
- Helm of Fortune
- The Other Trickster's Shard

This saves ~200 points. With these, I intend something like the following:
- Beef the White Lions to 30 strong (costs me 105 points)
- Get a Drakemaster and give him Skeinsliver and give the DP a musician (costs 30 points)
- Put the Amulet of Light on the Guardian (costs me 15 points)
- Get a third Eagle (costs me 50 points)

I believe keeping the amount of flyers is pretty important. I also believe that redirectors are even more essential to this list than most High Elf lists, as applying force concentration and keeping desired enemy units out of combat is the key to winning. As for the Drakemaster, it's mostly a way to include the Skeinsliver. I see no other way save for dropping The Other Trickster's Shard. I view this as a fairly poor configuration as it's an expensive Skeinsliver (I don't believe the Drakemaster is worth his upgrade points here) however I see no other solution to including it. If you have any ideas - please let me know!

The Lions being beefed up is something I like very much. I feel that a weakness with my list at the moment (at least a theoretical one) is my inability to take a big, threatening unit in the face with a unit of my own while engaging it in the flank with the Dragon. This should be fairly easy to set up with my movement but neither ~30 spears or ~20 Lions perform this task very well. 30 Lions on the other hand should be capable of doing this. The units I'm talking about are as follows: Big Monstrous infantry units (e.g. Treekin, Fiends, Minotaurs, Trolls, Ogres), typical Deathstars (e.g. Bloodletters, Grave Guard) and tough cavalry units (e.g. Black Knights, Chaos Knights). The damage output difference between 20 Lions and 30 Lions per frontage is insane. I believe you'd have to see it to understand it. Lastly, increasing the number of bodies makes it easier for me to reach combat with units that are strong enough to win against Dwarfs, Ogres, Empire etc. A horde of 30 Dwarf Warriors can be a tough matchup for 23 White Lions (especially considering they could take a few hits on their way in). For 30 though, it's a lot easier.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:38 pm 
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I'm having a game against Dark Elves in a couple of hours. Against these guys I do believe that having a third flying character would be the better choice. However, this is excellent opportunity to figure out whether the intended changes also work out ok against armies where I assume the other setup would be optimal.

I expect to have a report up before I go to bed tonight ;) Stay tuned! In the meantime, my updated list:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 214
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total ::1017

32 Spears, Full Command and Flamebanner :: 323
31 Spears, Full Command :: 304

Core Total :: 627

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 705

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Army total :: 2499

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:32 pm 
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My first game against Dark Elves in 8th edition! An experience which certainly taught me a lot, both with regards to Dark Elves and with regards to my own list. My opponent was a guy I've never played before. He was also relatively new to 8th edition, having been away from Warhammer for a long time. Anyway, he was a really nice guy and we had a blast.

:: Millennia of Hatred ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard :: 214
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total ::1017

32 Spears, Full Command and Flamebanner :: 323
31 Spears, Full Command :: 304

Core Total :: 627

30 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Amulet of Light :: 510
5 Dragon Princes, Drakemaster with Skeinsliver :: 195

Special Total: 705

3 Great Eagles :: 150

Rare Total :: 150

Dark Elves (he was kind enough to provide me with his full list):

Supreme Sorceress (Shadow Magic) - lvl 4, 4+ ward, +1PD
Death Hag BSB, Cauldron of Blood
Sorceress (Dark Magic) - lvl 2, d.scroll
Master - Pegasus, Armour of Destiny, Sea Dragon Cloak, Crimson Death

27 Corsairs, Full Command, Sea Serpent Standard
16 RxB - Full Command, shields
16 RxB - Full Command, shields
6 Harpies
6 Harpies

7 Cold One Knights - Full Command, Potion of Foolhardiness
20 Black Guard - Full Command, Banner of Murder

1 War Hydra

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got Fury of Khaine and Vaul's Unmaking and swapped Fury for Shield of Saphery. His lvl 2 got Soul Stealer and Black Horror (ugh!) while his lvl 4 got Steed, Pit, Pendulum, Mindrazor (yay!). He swapped Steed for Miasma. I was at this point mostly afraid of his lvl 2.

Deployment etc: we decided to play standard Battleline. He had yet to play above 1500 points in 8th and I'm not really a big fan of the rulebook scenarios so this was fine for me, really. My goal was to overload a flank while I kept the center pinned down. To this end, I believe my deployment was fine. I got some pretty good matchups and a lot of flexbility.

Image

I rolled a 1 for starting turn. He rolled a 3 and I won the re-roll! Thank you, Skeinsliver!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Everything moved up, my flyers keeping in touch with the rest of my infantry. The idea was to give Naenor and Saerith a lot of possibilities depending on his moves while having cover against his RxBs.

Magic - 9v7. I start off with a 6D6 Vaul's which goes off with IF on his supreme sorceress. She reveals 4+ ward and +1PD. Fearing his magic way more than a defensive item, I remove his extra PD. The miscast result is a 4. Oh my, I know this one all too well. Somehow, I manage to roll that 4+ though and Olannon survives! Unfortunately, the S10 template kills 11 Spearelves and wounds a Great Eagle.

Shooting and combat is nonexistant. I'm happy with Turn 1 considering my miscast.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 1 ::

His response is relatively unexpected: passive. Putting myself in his position I'm not sure what I would've done, but I was expecting some more aggression from him to pressure my centre as soon as possible. The only unit really advancing a lot was his flanking Knights. Between their long way around the house and my Eagles, I was confident this wasn't going to be a threat. One unit of Harpies moves up to block my Spears though.

Magic - after Annulian it's 7v6. Two casts of Power of Darkness later though and it's 10v6. Soul Stealer is out of range and my only real threat is Black Horror. He casts Pendulum on Naenor but I pass my I test. He probably should've miasma'd the Spearelves and then tried to Pit them. Black Horror is then cast but I dispel it, leaving him with 2D6 which he uses to miasma my Dragon Princes -2M. What's all this Dark Elf magic people are so afraid of ;)

Shooting sees him kill 2 Spearelves from the big unit while the other RxB's kill my wounded Eagle.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Realizing his Harpies in front of the RxBs lack a model or two to properly cover his edge, I charge his supreme sorceress' unit with Naenor, needing 7 or 8+ on Swiftstride. His Stand and Shoot does nothing as I'm in cover from most of the unit and I make my roll. Saerith charges the screening Harpies, allowing him to fight twice!

White Lions advances a tiny bit and my Eagle blocks his Black Guard from flanking Saerith. The big Spears charge screening harpies. The other Spears shuffle 3" sideways, Olannon leaving them to go in cover behind the rock. Dragon Princes move up just a bit behind the Lions, not caring too much about their -2M.

Magic - 9v6. I start off with a 5D6 Vaul's on his Black Guard and I get IF again! He reveals banner of armour piercing and I destroy it. Fearing for my magic defense, I roll the miscast result... Getting a 7!! Amazing - I even moved him out of the unit so no Elves die. The magic phase ends here.

Combat: I resolve Saerith first, kill all harpies, and overrun. He challenges with his champion, Naenor accepting and properly stomping him. This challenge did ensure he had 5 models left, thus making him Steadfast (yes, those 2 characters really can bring the hurt!). Imagine this: had I not had 2 characters, he would've challenged Saerith out and Mindrazored himself next turn. Not good! With 5 models left, Mindrazor's hardly an issue.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 2 ::

His Corsairs and Master charge my big Spears (apologies for not moving his Master in the diagram T1 - he was next to the corsairs). Cold One Knights fail their stupidity test and stumble into the house (he was just outside of Cauldron range - a lesson surely learned!). The crossbows free reform to better face the center.

Magic is 6v6. I figure he's gonna cast 4D6 at 2x Power of Darkness. Again, I'm not really afraid of his level 4. I know my Spears are lost, mindrazor or no. What I'm afraid of is, again, Soul Stealer and Black Horror. He casts Power with his level 4 and I let it go. Then he casts Power with his level 2 and I dispel it with 3D6 - leaving only 2D6 for his level 2. The result was that he got Mindrazor through on his Corsairs.

Shooting: Hydra lets loose and kills 8 Lions. Panic is passed. Combat: Black Guard murders the Eagle and overrun 10" - ending up just in front of the White Lions (I had purposefully left them 10.5" away). Saerith and Naenor kill the Supreme Sorceress and remaining 4 crossbows, not having to overrun. This suited me perfectly as I reformed them both to face the Black Guard. My Spears on the other hand is another story: they kill a couple of Corsairs first and are reduced to but a handful in return. The remaining flee and aren't caught by either the Master nor the Corsairs (the latter only get to run a couple of inches before they stop in the building).

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

The Black Guard receive no less than 4 charges - Saerith and Naenor in their flank and White Lions + Dragon Princes in front. Spears fail to reform (below 25%). The other Spears (something like 17 remaining) march up into the center, mostly to get out of Corsairs' Line of Sight.

Magic: again it's 9v6. I start off with Vaul's on 4D6, which I promptly fail. I really needed Shield here, too, to protect my Lions who I intended to overrun. I probably should've spent 5D6 on Vaul's and then 4D6 on Shield, I intended 4D6, 3D6 and then 2D6 for Drain. A little too much.

Combat: The Black Guard are murdered to a man, killing 4 Lions and 1 Dragon Prince in return. I reform all units to face center, apart from the Lions who overrun into the Hydra.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 3 ::

He reforms a lot to face my centre. The Master figures the Spears probably won't stop anytime soon so flies to threaten Olannon and the Dragon Princes. Magic is 7v6. He ends up killing a few Spearelves, with his shooting, too, they're down to only 6 remaining. Panic's passed.

Combat! What's this Hydra being underpriced everyone's talking about? Time to find out: I start off hitting it 7 times, managing a breathtakingly 0 wounds after only 2(!!!) wound and he regenerates them both. In return, he kills a lot of Lions, leaving only 9 remaining. I reform them to 4 wide, maximizing attacks.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Naenor + Saerith charge his Corsairs (it was about 18" - shorter than the diagram might imply) and both make it. The Dragon Princes make a long wheel to flank his Hydra. Olannon moves out of his Master's arc. My remaining Eagle blocks his Cold One Knights who could charge Saerith and help out the Corsairs.

Magic sees me Vaul's his Corsairs' banner (he figured he should've scrolled it but tried to dispel instead). Olannon's movement saw him outside of Shield range on the Lions, unfortunately.

Combat sees me murder his Corsairs pretty bad, leaving only 6 remaining (that Star Dragon is a beast!). My White Lions managed to put 2 wounds on the Hydra this time but 7 were butchered in return, leaving only 2 alive.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 4 ::

Not much movement going on any longer, apart from the obvious. His Master flies to threaten my DP's rear. The Cold One Knights charge the Eagle. Crossbows reform to face the remaining handful of Spearelves.

Between magic and shooting 1 guy is left alive!

Combat - I can't wound the Hydra due to regeneration and his Cold One Knights beat my Eagle (but it does survive and runs away!). His remaining Corsairs die. I reform to face his Knights with Saerith and his Master with Naenor.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

The Dragon Princes deside that with 3 wounds left, the Hydra's probably too much. They move away, out of charge arc. Saerith charges the Knights and Naenor the Master.

Magic - I get drain through (was 5v3).

Saerith easily beat the Knights but the remaining 3 flee away from him. Naenor fails to kill the Master (he had 1W left) and is wounded twice in return. However, due to charge + BSB + rear, the Master fails his test and is caught.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 5 ::

Hydra charges Naenor, who flees and barely makes it! Magic and shooting kills the last Spearelf, netting him roughly 300 victory points. His Crossbows fire upon Naenor but fail to penetrate his armour!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

Saerith charges the Knights again, Naenor reforms. I don't dare to cast any spells, fearing I'll lose 180 victory points. He can't really hurt me with magic in his last turn so it doesn't matter either.

The Knights all die to Saerith.

Image

:: Dark Elves Turn 6 ::

He charges Naenor with crossbows and the Hydra, giving the Elves killing blow from his Cauldron.

Magic does nothing and it's on to combat. Unsurprisingly, Naenor falls and the game's over!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up points, it's really close. Double-checking bonus points etc from the rulebook, we find that I'm 171 points ahead! By our standards, a victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Dark Elves most certainly are a hard opponent to meet. His list was rather soft compared to the worst they can bring but between his Corsairs' attacks, the Black Guard's potential and his Hydra murdering my Lions, I definitely see why they're a few notches above us.

What did I learn about Dark Elves? Their magic holds a lot of potential but their selection isn't perfect. Their infantry backed up by the Cauldron outclasses ours and their magic items are really powerful and cheap (that corsair standard for 25 points?). Also, I made a huge mistake by underestimating the Hydra. I should've sent Saerith to help the Lions, delaying the middle assault.

What did I learn about my own list? When I play this kind of strategy - where the role for my flyers is to overwhelm a flank rather than help my infantry - I need to delay the central fights. As such, even advancing my infantry at all was a big mistake. Especially when he screened me off with his Harpies I should've simply backed off. I also learned how vulnerable our Spearelves really are. I'm so used to sending them in backed up by Life magic. Without, they simply die fairly easily, the frailty of T3 5+ save becoming painfully clear.

So, 3 major things: To beat Dark Elves, make sure you can properly concentrate your force. When using Flyers to dominate a flank, keep the infantry slow. When something targets my Spearelves, they will die rather easily.

Oh and never underestimate a War Hydra! 7 hatred attacks and thunderstomp is just brutal, not to mention its regeneration!

I asked my opponent to bring a harder list next time. In hindsight, I'm glad my first encounter was against a relatively mediocre list as I did a few mistakes and learned a lot. Next time however I want to see how I perform against a properly competitive force.

As always, C&C very welcome :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:36 pm 
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Cheers for taking the time to write it up.

Seems like your plan was a good solid idea and worked well. Does the Hydra make you think about taking a Flaming Banner on one of the elite units that can wound the beast easier?

I do like your Dragon and Eagle they work so well together and will pressure the enemy alot. I think I may have to try atleast the Eagle if not both and see how it goes.

thank you

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Another great match! This one was a real nailbiter. Incidentally, I also played my version of this list this weekend versus a Dwarf army sporting Thorek at the helm. It was an interesting match to say the least - If you don't mind I'm going to post my battle report here once I have it written up, since it so closely ties to what you're experimenting with.

A few thoughts on your match:

First, the Dark Elf Magic phase. I find there's two different strategies that you see them play most often. The first is similar to what you experienced; the player uses power of darkness off the bat to try to build up a stockpile of power dice. I find this strategy pretty easy to deal with though. Since their spell fails on a 1 or 2, and they're casting it at the start of their turn, they don't want to throw one dice at it. So it's always 2D6 per wizard. Using this method, whenever you see them roll a statistically low roll, it's a perfect opportunity to limit the extra dice they get for a phase. Worst scenario here is if they roll high on 2D6, meaning you'd need to throw 3 of your own. Typically, however, I prioritize dispelling power of darkness over other spells for the simple fact that it's the most efficient method of shutting down their phase.

The second method is the one I fear the most. It typically involves 3 or so mages, and they tax your magic defense with their cheap casting cost spells first. So you get to sit there with the choice between eating a volley of low cost/low effect spells and saving your dice to shut down power of darkness or shutting down the initial spells and letting them go power crazy and cast the big spells. Since in this strategy power is being cast at the end of the phase, the dark elf player often feels much safer attempting it on a single D6, guaranteeing them bonus dice if it is successful. It's a bit riskier, but the payoff is so huge that if I played them, this is the way I'd go. It ends up being one of the most protracted magic phases in the game, and makes you want to gauge out your eyes.

Regarding the spears waif-y nature - don't I know it! If you read my last few battle reports with my MSU list, the spears end up taking a beating in every game, rarely if ever making it to combat in any sort of fighting shape. Without getting back in to the spears vs. archers debate, this is what started me thinking "what's the point?". They are an amazing unit to buff with magic, but on their own they just fold too easily.

In the game I played, I put the banner of eternal flame on the white lions. I think this would have made a huge difference in this match. If you're going to pay for flaming attacks, you might as well give it to some troops with high quality attacks.

I can totally understand why your opponent opted for a more conservative first turn. Even with your Dragon/Eagle riders bearing down on him, he had a clear and decisive advantage with the ranged game. I don't really think his list had a good solution for your Dragon, but it can only be in one place at one time, so he could afford a turn or two of whittling down your main combat blocks with unanswered shooting.

I agree with your statement, though, about focusing a flank with the heroes. The prince could have handled that Hydra in pretty short order, keeping those white lions alive. The shooting would have been a bit more punishing in this case, but with a bit of breath weapon action to get rid of regeneration, I have faith that your heroes would have only been stalled by a turn.

D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:04 pm 
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@tundrik - The plan was decent. I wouldn't say solid, as it had plenty of flaws. However, in the end my superior mobility allowed me to claw out a victory, albeit a minor one! Flaming Banner on White Lions is a difficult proposition. For one, I believe that it's crucial for me to be able to bring them along the Dragon's path as soon as possible. To this end, the movement banner is amazing. 1" might not seem as much, but usually that's at least a 3" advantage (you march turn 1 and if you charge turn 2 you at least have that extra inch). The other problem is that if I give them the Flaming Banner I don't really have anything with which to deal with flame-ward characters, save for my own. In this match I do believe that how I handled the Hydra was the main problem. If I continue to have problem with regen-monsters, I'll have to reconsider this priority.

@Brewmaster_D - feel free to post a report here, if not in your own thread :) As for Dark Elf magic strategy, I know fairly little. Their spell selection seems to be the biggest problem though and I was particularly lucky in this game, although his Lord died very early a crucial Withering could've been disastrous.

As for Spearelves: they performed a crucial task against Daemons. In this game, I simply played them poorly and as such can't blame the unit. I must say though that against 7-wide Corsairs with a 25(!!!) point Frenzy banner, our core seems somewhat poorly priced (especially considering the Corsairs always get to re-roll hits (even against annoying I6 units and a lot of characters)) when the Corsairs are better protected! As for my heroes - Saerith definitely should've gone for the Hydra. I was just too gready, but the Lions were already down to 18 when they charged the Hydra and that's 500 very, very vulnerable points in a highly dangerous situation.

I'm yet again finding that I could've played my Dragon Princes better though. Thoughts on this particular aspect?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Couple of thoughts -

The hydra - There's no obvious solution from your list. The white lions did as good as would be expected, but I'd almost always avoid ever sending infantry against a target like that (Unless my infantry will kill a target in one turn (or it's a greater daemon I'm trying to drag down) I'd only hit the hydra with Dragon Princes (delay) or defensive mounted hero. In this case, Saerith. This would have meant a turn or two for the white lions/princes/ and Naenor to grind em down while Saerith deals with the hydra, but this would have freed up the entire flank!

But I would have also used Naenor a little differently. The combo charge was pretty spectacular. However, after the Dark Elves turn 2 (when they wipe out the unit and reform) I'd have had Naenor reform facing eastward, and flank charge the RCB's. Turn 1 you'll be facing the champion (no problem there). It should be a draw (or maybe you lose by 1). Turn 2, you kill the sorceress, and remove the threat of magic from the game. So by end of turn 3, he has no Miasma or more importantly no mind razor!

Another alternative - After turn 2 - Ignore the western flank! Blackguard are a pain at the best of times, but one the white lions can do a fair number on. This allows you to send Naenor in the crossbows and Saerith into the Cauldron! This neuters the eastern flank, and saves your spears, meaning you only have the weakened black guard and hydra left to face.

The strength of the dark elf army, from what I've seen comes from the supporting casters, the cauldron, and hydras nomming on infantry.

Still a great battle and a great win!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:36 pm 
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A Master (hero) cannot have both Armour of Destiny (4+ ward) and Crimson Death (strength 6). Was he actually a Dreadlord (lord) and thus the enemy general, or was this an army list error? If he was the enemy general, why didn't you try harder to kill him, as he would be worth a lot of points?


This ended up closer than I expected. I thought it was largely won in deployment, and confirmed by turn 1 moves. He left a weak center, but his flanks were not very able to close in. He did not do anything to keep your fliers off his big wizard. Although since that big wizard rolled horribly for spells, it ended up mattering less than I expected.

* With no shooting on your side, I really do not understand the harpy deployment. They can deploy behind something important and fly over it, with effectively no impediment to their movement ability - if he went first, the harpies didn't want to land 4" in front of you anyway. They occupied important frontage that would have been better as Black Guard or CoK.
* He fell into the trap of putting shooters on a hill, even though it does very little for them. If he had Black Guard in front of them the hill might have mattered, but with no units in the way, the hill was just a trap making them easy for you to charge.
* His right flank, with hydra and BG, are so far out they are not just missing BSB re-rolls, they are missing Cauldron buffs! Hydra with Killing Blow is even scarier.
* The Knights were not necessarily deployed badly, but the movement of his left flank made them useless. Either the infantry and knights needed to stay back, or the infantry needed to move up agressively while the knights went around the building. Keeping the infantry mostly back while sending the knights the long went ensured they did not support each other. Something needed to get into your face (even a turn 1 knight charge), or both things needed to stay back.

I think your only mistake was the positioning of the dragon after killing the Black Guard. It isn't that ignoring the Hydra was such an obvious mistake (the White Lions might have taken it down), but that there was no reason to take the risk because there was no benefit to going after the corsairs at that time. The corsairs had already earned all the VPs they were capable of earning (the few remaining spears were doomed from a variety of enemies). If you pick off the Hydra first, there may still be time to kill the corsairs later. Up to that point, you had expended your 25% core and 2 Eagles to occupy half his army while your dragon and friends (75% of your army) rampaged against the other half of his. That is a winning plan, except you let up at the last minute, which almost let the Hydra bring him back.
I think you were entirely correct up to that point - he gave you his level 4, and you should take advantage of that immediately.

I don't see a problem with the DP usage here. They are really a great 150 pt units (even though yours cost 30% more, they aren't worth more once on the table). They helped you kill the Black Guard in one phase (important), and if your White Lions had done slightly better, it would have been worth sending them in to finish off the Hydra.

On DE magic, I think starting with double Power of Darkness is a mistake. If you start with one Power of Darkness, immediately use the dice generated. Then consider casting the other one. I feel the way to defend against PoD is focussing on the spells that matter and usually ignoring the PoD, except when it impacts a spell that matters. You did that, and it worked great here. The problem is when all the spells matter - give that level 4 Enfeebling and Withering instead of Pendulum and Pit and things get problematic.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:30 pm 
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@Baeronvonbleat - The ideal solution against the Hydra is the flaming spears + Dragon. Since the Dragon, as opposed to the rest of our units, strikes after the Elves, I can benefit from the flaming effects. Failing that, a Horde of Lions full-strength should pent a dent on it, regen or no (13 attacks, 11-12 hits, 7-8 wounds before saves). However, as demolished as they were now, I should've sent Saerith with them and this would've sealed the deal. Please note that I never used my Breath Weapon in this game, bringing it to bear against a Hydra certainly would've helped things.

As for Naenor - I probably could've put the pressure on his Eastern flank a bit sooner. The Black Guard most likely would've died regardless. However, his level 2 did not have Shadow Magic so the Mindrazor threat was gone. Regardless, facing Naenor eastwards would allow me to threaten his Cauldron as well.

Ignoring the western flank I think is a poor idea. The Lions are stuck against Black Guard no matter what I do. Between 22 WL + 5 DP and 20 BG + Hydra, it could easily turn into a bad situation for me. Agreed about the strengths of a Dark Elf army though!

@dabber - looked up the Master part and you're indeed right! Probably a mistake on my opponent's part that was un-intentional. I didn't expect the game to end anywhere near this close either. However, being too aggressive with the Spearelves and failing to dedicate to killing the Hydra cost me a LOT (the Hydra vs WL alone would've been a difference of 700VP!). In the end, the flying characters brought it home though.

What would you have done to keep my flyers off his Supreme Sorcerer though?

Agreed about the biggest mistake, though I do believe my Spearelves were played poorly as well. Why would I charge his Harpies? With the cautious movement on his Turn 1 and me having a free Eagle to block his Knights, I could've kept the Spears back while I killed off his BG + Hydra flank. There is nothing he could've done to prevent this; by keeping the Spearelves further behind they probably would've survived until my characters could help them out. VP-wise, this is huge (the Spears are, after all, as expensive as Saerith).

As for DP - they didn't have too much of an impact on his Black Guard. I don't feel their psychological effect was too good either. I could've used them to keep his knights at bay (with an Eagle - a fairly easy task) as he doesn't want 13 S5 ASF attacks.

Lastly - Dark Elf magic: indeed it would've been worse had he had worse spells at his disposal. Magic selection is the main problem for Dark Elves though and to compensate you either have to spend a lot of points or just be very lucky!

I might have a game tomorrow night against Ogre Kingdoms. I'm fairly certain that my opponent will field something like a HUGE deathstar of Ironguts (we're talking 18+) and dual-Ironblasters. This could prove to be really hard for me: the Ironblasters need to die as soon as possible and I don't have a whole lot of solutions for the Ironguts unless I can combo-charge them to death (thinking this'll need at least 3-4 units: WL in front, Dragon flank/rear, Spears flank).

If this ends up being the case, the general strategy will be as follows:
- Get the Ironblasters as soon as possible with my Flyers
- Try and taunt his deathstar with a juicy target (e.g. White Lions). If he goes for it, place an eagle in front and have flankers ready. If not, concentrate on killing his chaff and feed his Deathstar my chaff

Deployment-wise I thus need to be rather aggressive and try and get the flyers some good terrain and/or approaching routes. Magic-wise I'd love to get Flames as this boosts my magical defense. The Shield of Saphery is already a great tool in this matchup, and one I'm sure to be getting.

One thing I'd like to comment on - the lack of my extra Noble. Getting another drop hurts this army, however the Lions suddenly have way more hitting power. I do believe the added Noble has most merit as a chaff-clearer, character-hunter and missile troop threat (e.g. Wood Elf 10-man archers, High Elf mage bunkers etc). These are things I'm rather confident I can deal with as the list stands now. The added benefit of more White Lions and the extra Eagle gives me better tools for going head to head against other big combat blocks (a big plus) and that last redirector surely helps when I need to choose when and where to fight!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:36 pm 
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@Curu

I challenge thee, craven elfling, to a battle to your death. Thou may choose the nature of thy demise:
[ ]Bloodthirster
[ ]Great Unclean One
[ ]Keeper of Secrets
Various lesses daemons may be added to taste.

In case you haven't guessed, I'm prepping lists for next years league, but have yet to decide which. I'm inclined to try GUO to see how well large units of low-magic elves respond to multiple toughness tests. Then again, headhunting dragonlords with a Bloodthirster should prove good sport. I'll post the complete list here once you've made your choice.

Then, in case we don't have time to play prior to christmas, we can instead theoryhammer each other to death here.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Never said no to a good ol' theoryhammer, though I vastly prefer playing ;) We'll see how it turns out with my reading and all.

To the rest of you - I'm organizing a fantasy league for the local gaming club just after christmas. It features some custom comp to (hopefully) bring the armies more closely together. Rusty here's decided to bring Daemons since they're comped fairly heavy, intent on proving they can still win.

The nature of my Demise... Well, I do believe the GUO is the easiest to face and the Bloodthirster is the worst. This is all based on mobility. However, 10 wounds could really be a pain, as could his insane combat potential. It's a hard call, whichever one you'll take.

Another drawback with the Great Unclean One is the need for taking Plaguebearers (in our league each Daemon character needs to have 1 core unit of the same allegiance to be taken - thus no solo Tzeentch Herald flying solo without Horrors nor a Bloodthirster to cope with a Slaanesh list's problems with heavy armour and tough units. Interestingly, this also means that taking a Greater Daemon leaves a unit without a Herald). Personally I believe these are the worst of the Daemon core infantry, maybe second to Horrors.

If you want to follow this Slaanesh list of yours further, I advice you bring a Keeper. You can then take a min-unit of Daemonettes, 2 more accompanied by Heralds etc. This should form a fairly solid core for an all-comers list. I do see a potential problem with Dwarfs (heavily armoured; war machines against the Keeper) though, but apart from taking Bloodletters instead of Daemonettes nothing will change this (apart from re-designing the entire list).

So, I'm thinking something like this:
Keeper, semi-kitted out (doesn't need to be too expensive)
Tzeentch Herald, BSB
Min-sized Horrors
Min-sized Daemonettes
2x Daemonette blocks (25-30), both with Heralds

Don't know how many points that'll be, fill out with Flamers and Fiends as needed :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Not a bad guess. My plan was either:
Code:
1 Keeper of Secrets @ 550.0 Pts
     General; Magic Level 1
     Spirit Swallower [100.0]

1 Herald of Slaanesh @ 120.0 Pts
     Siren Song [25.0]
     Torment Blade [5.0]

1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 190.0 Pts
     Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow; Battle Standard
     Master of Sorcery [25.0]
     Spell Breaker [25.0]

30 Daemonettes of Slaanesh @ 390.0 Pts
     Standard; Musician, champion

30 Daemonettes of Slaanesh @ 390.0 Pts
     Standard; Musician, champion

10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch @ 120.0 Pts

6 Chaos Furies @ 72.0 Pts

6 Chaos Furies @ 72.0 Pts

4 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 220.0 Pts

3 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 165.0 Pts

6 Flamers of Tzeench @ 210.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2499.0


or

Code:
1 Bloodthirster @ 540.0 Pts
     General
     Immortal Fury [25.0]
     Axe of Khorne [25.0]
     Armour of Khorne [15.0]
     Spell Breaker [25.0]

1 Herald of Slaanesh @ 120.0 Pts
     Torment Blade [5.0]
     Siren Song [25.0]

1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 165.0 Pts
     Magic Level 2; Lore of Shadow; Battle Standard
     Master of Sorcery [25.0]
30 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 415.0 Pts
     Standard; Musician, champion
     Icon of Endless War [25.0]
30 Daemonettes of Slaanesh @ 415.0 Pts
     Standard; Musician, champion
     Siren Standard [25.0]

10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch @ 120.0 Pts

5 Chaos Furies @ 60.0 Pts

5 Chaos Furies @ 60.0 Pts

3 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 165.0 Pts

4 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 220.0 Pts

6 Flamers of Tzeench @ 210.0 Pts

Total Army Cost: 2490.0


Lots of chaff and three big hammers. I'm leaning towards adding Khorne for flexibility. As you showed in our previous game I lack multiple high strength, and lack of wings means the KoS can be boxed in. The nice thing about KoS is that he is self healing once in combat, letting magic aid the the rest of the troops.

In that capacity, I'm wondering whether to bring 1+6 or 3+4 Fiends? 6 with buff/hex is a hammer. 1 is a redirector/cannonball catcher for the Greater Daemon. 3/4 are two independent threats, but won't be able to go it alone.

Torment blade on the herald is for that one time a dragon or hydra won't be able to attack at all, for 5 pts.

I'll agree that Bloodthirster is probable the most dangerous in this comp environment. What would you do to counter it (and the rest of the army)?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
What would you have done to keep my flyers off his Supreme Sorcerer though?
Put the Black Guard in front of the Supreme's unit, leaving you no place to land. That buys a couple turns. Keep the Hydra nearby as a threat, as cauldron killing blow should get your Prince.


If you haven't faced an Irongut death-star previously, remember your recent Hydra lesson. The internet wisdom that they hit incredibly hard and are difficult to kill is very true. They don't have the "underpriced" label of the Hydra, but Irongut deathstars are really really effective at preserving points and smashing things.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:12 pm 
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@rusty - Khorne list looks stronger. To handle a Bloodthirster - a Star Dragon is probably my best bet: between Loec and the combined attacks a Bloodthirster should be very weakened, if not dead. The Lion horde should also be able to put some hurt on it.

The rest of the list is fairly typical Daemon-handling: use mobility to choose fights, apply proper force concentration to bring things down as fast as possible while feeding the other units chaff. Combined charges and flyers are key words here.

@dabber - 20 Black Guard isn't that much of a threat for a Dragon. I charge in, breath fire and thunderstomp. Without doing the math, I'm fairly certain that should kill well over half the unit. If I charge in Naenor as well, he'll surely die in 2 rounds of combat. If I want to, I can even triple or quadruple charge it with eagles, just to get those extra S4 attacks and stomps to ensure he goes down in 2 rounds. Granted, if I'm a bit unlucky with the first rolls and he gets Mindrazor off, I'm in trouble. To reliably do this though he needs a bigger block, like the corsairs. That pretty much lets me pick off the rest of his list, one unit at a time. I do agree with the principle, I just don't believe Black Guard are capable of performing this task: a Star Dragon is insanely destructive and if I really want a unit of Elven elites to go down, breathing fire helps me out immensely.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The ideal solution against the Hydra is the flaming spears + Dragon. Since the Dragon, as opposed to the rest of our units, strikes after the Elves, I can benefit from the flaming effects. Failing that, a Horde of Lions full-strength should pent a dent on it, regen or no (13 attacks, 11-12 hits, 7-8 wounds before saves). However, as demolished as they were now, I should've sent Saerith with them and this would've sealed the deal. Please note that I never used my Breath Weapon in this game, bringing it to bear against a Hydra certainly would've helped things.


I'm not sure about the spears in this equation - With 16 attacks, and the Hydra's armour save, they're only doing 1 wound a turn. Hardly what I'd call a sure thing. In return, you afford the hydra a nice juicy target to apply those S5 hits and Thunderstomp to. I think this move would be riskier than just sending in the Dragon, which is a relatively hard target for it.

This, of course, is barring the hydra getting buffed with killing blow. Then you probably need call Von Helsing or something.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:44 pm 
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It's not a sure thing, but it's the best I've got. I'm very reluctant to put the Flamebanner on my Lions - they're the only tough combat block I've got and that could seriously be a disadvantage for them. By having it on the Spears I give my Dragon that extra chance of having their regeneration negated. Alternatively I could Loec it to death, I suppose a lot of Dark Elf armies don't have plenty of good Loec targets :)

Next Dark Elf encounter will surely be interesting, that's for sure! I'm fairly certain I'll face a harder list. The good thing is that now I know how they work ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Hey Curu,

Quick question on the Dragon/Eagle BSB/(potentially 3rd flier) list...

You are using white lions here, I assume as a formidible multipurpose threat (stubborn for anvilish-ness and S6 for the choppy bits). Have you considered using one of the other elite infantries? I've been thinking that swordmasters might actually add a level of overwhelming threat to further draw fire from the dragon. They certainly aren't as stable, but once into a combat, they should perform admirably.

Further, it could add a nice thematic element - star dragon and co with a dragon prince cohort and a high mage with his swordmaster support. Hmm...

Also, any thoughts on going with Life for the mage for the occassional lifebloom?

Thanks, in advance, for the consideration!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:34 pm 
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The White Lions have a built-in advantage to my main problem, namely gunlines. Their cloakes make them way more resilient than Swordmasters. Since they are in Horde formation as well the extra attack the Swordmasters possess does not matter too much. Granted, by taking Swordmasters I could field them 2*14, which offers more flexibility. If I end up feeling like I need more damage output, this is a likely change to try out.

I thought about Life, but concluded as follows:
- Having 3 spells is golden in strong phases, giving me lots of flexibility
- Having a chance of getting Vaul's is amazing
- Shield is vastly superior to Earthblood
- The Dragon is frequently too far away to benefit from the healing

Did this answer your questions sufficiently or would you like me to clarify some more?

;)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:44 pm 
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Covered like a pro. Thanks!


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