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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:34 pm 
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@Brewmaster_D - You make some valid points about the Archers, yet again. It remains to be seen though, I'm definitely trying all-spears first!

As for the artillery being worth 800VP - that's plenty to win! Imagine everything I can sacrifice and still be ahead. Granted, this is all theory and a lot could happen, but if the back-lines are worth 800VP alone that's a pretty big chunk.

@Swordmaster of Hoeth - I actually haven't looked at the Dragon Prince bodies but I most certainly will. The problem here is the great weapon though. I suppose a long sword would do, the problem is that the Drakemaster's long sword is extremely fragile. Thanks for the tip though, will look into it!

@Iniesta - I'm not much of an ebay person, so thanks for the links! I've spent half an hour looking through those models and googling stuff now. It all boils down to the fact that the models are either too big, too un-mountable and with too little detail (i.e. they'd look weird next to the superbly modelled Carmine Dragon).

@Purplesounds - Wow! I definitely did not expect anyone picking up on this list so soon! It was indeed very interesting to see it in action and I believe you played it fairly well. I'll most certainly reply in your thread with relevant comments.

So this is where I'm at so far: I haven't found a single company other than Games Workshop who produce Dragons that are
a) 'cool and detailed' enough to fit along the Carmine Dragon and other High Elf miniatures
b) mountable
c) small enough to replace Great Eagle

Even the Games Workshop small Dragons can be very hard to mount. Where I'm at now is that I'll most likely buy the Young Dragons (link: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... rod1140118). The only real alternative is the Drakes (link: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... rod1140116). I don't think either of these are perfect though, but for Rare Eagles (i.e. without riders) they'll work. I really want to emphasize the Dragon theme and having 4 Great Eagles I believe would take the focus away from that.

For my 2 mounted Nobles I believe I'll be stuck with Eagles. I believe these 2 Eagles are the easiest to mount using a bit of tweaking + green stuff:
Link 1 - http://gamezoneminiatures.de/elfen/great-eagle-i.html
Link 2 - http://gamezoneminiatures.de/elfen/great-eagle-iii.html

So, to summarize: Forgeworld Carmine Dragon for my Star Dragon. Games Workshop Young Dragons for my Rare Great Eagles. Gamezone Great Eagles for my Nobles' mounts. This'll likely be expensive but hopefully worth it. This is not set in stone but I've spent a few hours looking through various modelling sites and I simply haven't found anything close to what I need.

Paint-wise I believe the Dragon will take ages. I believe I'll have the body black with the scales the same orange as my army colour. The fangs, claws etc will be normal bone-colored. The Drakes will be painted similarly. As for the Eagles, I'm very unsure. I believe a normal black-brown-white-ish theme could work well. Opinions appreciated.

Lastly I'd like to encourage you all to read Purplesounds battle report. I believe it highlights the strengths of the list and the way he played it really emphasizes my reason for bringing this list in the first place. While you're at it I suggest you also leave some comments as to how he could've played better, should you have any :) The report can be found here. Good to see the list finally being played, although unfortunately I wasn't the one to play it ;) Don't worry, I will get around to it!

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:03 pm 
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More modelling headaches: having consulted Jimmy with regards to the Gamezone Eagles it's become clear that mounting them will indeed be a very hard task, if not impossible.

I've been looking around for alternatives and come up with the following:
- Convert Pegasii using either the Bretonnian Pegasus model or separate Great Eagle wings on Elven Steeds. I haven't seen anyone do this for High Elves. Do you know of anyone who's done this? Please link here, preferably with pictures (the closest I could come was jwg20's flying lions).
- Using standard Great Eagles. I found an example in this thread (link: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30381&p=643032#p643032) and I believe that with a dynamic model it could look pretty good.
- Try out the Lord of the Rings Giant Eagle. (link: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30465&p=644081#p644081) Again, I have not seen this mounted. If you've seen it with anything Warhammer-related (e.g. not a LotR model) please link it!

I really like the pose of the LotR Eagle. It's just a little unclear how mountable it is.

As for the mounted Elves, I have the following in mind:
-Island of Blood Swordmaster Champion for my Prince. Will have to see whether to go for Silver Helm or Dragon Prince legs.
-Sigvald the Magnificent for the 'normal' Noble. I believe the mini's great and could easily look Elven. I would've tried him for the Prince but I believe the angle of his head would look weird coupled with the Carmine Dragon (they look in opposite directions and I don't think twisting the body around would work very well).
-Standard SH/DP parts for the mounted BSB. Should be fairly easy, just have to figure out how to do the banner (maybe the normal DP banner would work? It is pretty big after all).

If you have any thoughts about this and / or other suggestions please let me know!

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Ok, I haven't read the whole blog, but I've gone through the last two entries and I'm beginning to get a sense of what you're looking for. I'll address you last set of modeling questions and then I'll comment on anything else in the blog once I get to read through it.

- Converting a Pegasus: I'm working on a conversation for a GD 2012 diorama. I'm using the spare horse from the high elf chariot (I'm making a lion chariot) with the rope trimmed down to look like reigns. I'm going to mount plastic pegasus wings to the model.
- A beautiful mount for a noble on great eagle: There is a limited edition elf on great eagle on Coolminiornot.com shop. It's a pricey model, but very beautiful. It can be used as a mount for a lord from the high elf lord kit. Here's what someone else did http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/19070 ... d.html?m=2

- BSB: have you considered using the IoB Reaver Champion with the banner from the high elf lord kit. I've done this for my army and it is simply beautiful.

I hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:36 am 
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Most of this blog is actually about battle reports and tactical discussion. It's only the last couple of pages where there's been anything related to modelling etc which is due to my sudden change of heart. Long story short, I've tried 2 approaches thus far, one of which I believe has too many weaknesses while the other didn't really suit me.

Anyways - that great eagle looks terrific! I cannot spend 70$ before shipping though, especially since I need 2 Eagles. I just ordered the Carmine Dragon which, between taxes and shipping, will take a healthy part out of my pocket. I can't believe all the amazing miniatures out there that don't fit due to different reasons (e.g. Gamezone Eagles being hard to mount).

The Pegasus wings is a really good tip - I didn't know they were plastic! Makes them a lot easier to work with than Great Eagle wings. As for the BSB - he is also flying. I'll have to see how the reaver's horses fit with the wings.

So, a new summary:
- Carmine Dragon ordered and hopefully on its way not too long from now
- Going to order 2 pairs of Pegasus wings for my Nobles
- Going to order Young Dragons for my rare Eagles

Model-wise, I'm still intending to do Sigvald, a Bladelord and find out about the BSB. Will look into the Reavers!

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:05 pm 
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I was just about to switch out the first post list with the new dragon list. As I was copying over, I discovered what I consider a pretty big weakness. I have no magical damage! As such, I really need to work in the Amulet of Light somehow. I want to do this while impacting the list in the least way possible. The list, for reference, is as follows:

Prince on Star Dragon, Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec - 622
Noble BSB on Great Eagle, Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness - 214
Noble on Great Eagle, Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard, Great Weapon - 191
High Mage lvl 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem - 180

Characters total: 1208

32 Spears, full command and flamebanner - 323
31 Spears, full command - 304

Core total: 627

23 White Lions, full command and +1M banner, skeinsliver - 415
5 Dragon Princes - 150

Special total: 565

2 Great Eagles - 100

Rare total: 100

Army total: 2500

I suppose the easiest way is to give it to the WL champion, drop the Trickster's Shard on the Noble and give him Skeinsliver. Of course the noble could easily carry it himself but I feel it's better on the Lions. What are your thoughts on the matter? Do I need it at all and if yes, how do I fit in the without impacting the least significantly?

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Surprise! I got a game against Rusty today! Eager to try out my new list, Rusty agreed to use a LOT of proxies. I asked him to give me a relatively hard list, bar tailoring, while not bringing the worst of the worst. He complied and I got to face what I consider one of the worst matchups: Daemons of Chaos.

The battle was long and hard-fought, which made for a lot of interesting events. Want to find out how it all unfolded? Read on!

:: Caledorian Pride ::

My dragonlist:

Prince Saerith on Star Dragon - Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Talisman of Loec :: 622
Noble Naenor BSB on Great Eagle - Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Potion of Foolhardiness :: 214
Noble Cael on Great Eagle - Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, The Other Trickster's Shard, Great Weapon :: 191
High Mage Curu Olannon - Level 2, Annulian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem :: 180

Characters Total ::1208

32 Spears, Full Command and Flamebanner :: 323
31 Spears, Full Command :: 304

Core Total :: 627

23 White Lions, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness, Skeinsliver :: 415
5 Dragon Princes :: 150

Special Total: 565

2 Great Eagles :: 100

Rare Total :: 100

Army total :: 2500

His list:

Keeper of Secrets, level 4, various upgrades, Siren Song
Tzeentch Herald, loremaster (death), flying, -2LD banner
2x Slaanesh Heralds (no songs though, he wanted to be nice (!)

2x40 Daemonettes with full command
7 Fiends of Slaanesh
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got Flames and Vaul's, swapping the latter for Shield. He got 3,4,5,6 for Keeper.

He brought exactly what I wanted to face for my first game: a relatively hard list, but not the worst around. The lack of flamers, potent magic-potential and 2 missing Siren Songs was just about perfect for a first game. His LD-bombability had a lot of potential and he was very fast. This time however, I had the speed to counter him with! I won roll-off for sides and chose to refuse a flank. My plan was as follows: Use the relatively tight Eastern flank to refuse him everything at once. Let the Lions handle the Western flank and use superior mobility to dictate the fights.

This worked out wonderfully as deployment went exactly as I'd have hoped:

Image

He had +1 to start due to finishing deployment first, however Skeinsliver made up for this. Regardless, I rolled a '5' and he a '2' so I went first.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I followed through on my initial plan, happy to get first turn. I was a little unsure of what to do with the Dragon Princes as I was afraid the centre would get a little crammed for them. I decided to move them up. The Spears also advanced, my Great Eagles protecting everything barring my flyers from Siren Song. My Flyers countered this by turning 180 degrees around, making it impossible for him to Song them.

Magic starts off beautifully with 11v6. I start off with Flames on 6D6 which he fails to dispel. Some poor rolls and lucky saves on his part (don't Daemon players just have a talent for rolling 5+??) saw only 8 Daemonettes from his central block die (the average is ~14). I followed up with Shield on my Noble, fearing his Slicing Shards and finished with Drain. Not too shabby for a level 2!

Shooting is non-existant and my first turn is complete in what must be a new record (I think I spent less than 10 minutes - very rare for an opening turn from me). I'm confident in my position and opportunities as the deployment, movement and terrain have virtually left his usual superior movement useless. Granted, he can reach me fast but he can't dance around me.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

His center Daemonettes move to let his Keeper through. This puts them at an awkward angle as his units can quickly become crammed. The other Daemonettes move up cautiously. The lone fiend takes a rearguard move to threaten Saerith and the Star Dragon, primarily to force a march leadership test.

His big unit of Fiends marches right into my Lions' face, which suits me just fine. I assume this grind will go on for some time and as long as he doesn't try anything fancy I'm better off. The Keeper moves up very aggressively, threatening my Dragon Princes. I immediately start thinking about how I can box him in and create a favourable combat - if he goes down in Turn 2 or 3, I have a very good shot at winning this game.

Magic ensues and it's a 9v6 phase. He starts off dispelling Flames on 3D6 from Keeper, which works out. He then tries Slicing Shards on my Great Eagle on 6D6, which I dispel.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I contemplate how I can lock down the Keeper. I want to get Saerith and the Star Dragon in his flank, having my Spears in his front. This will give me lots of static combat resolution to help with the killing power. To do this, I need to hold off both Daemonette units for a turn. Now, the diagram is a little unclear here since there's a lot of fine angling necessary to accomplish this: I end up having to use 2 Eagles to block his Western block while my Spears have to try their luck against his other block.

To box in the Keeper, I send Naenor to his flank. This way, he cannot pivot (as he'll be within 1" of me). I finish up by sending my Spears to his front. His only legal move is charging the spears. I champion-challenge, hold on steadfast, then charge in Saerith next turn. At least that's the plan. A problem with Saerith is that he is so far away that I cannot get clear of the Daemonettes' overrun arc. I could've probably angled the Spears to avoid this but I didn't consider them breaking in one turn at all (huge mistake on my part). Cael moves to be able to help whoever needs it.

My White Lions reform to 12+11, maximizing the frontage against the Fiends. I also want to delay this fight as long as possible and would rather have all the extra attacks than +1 to combat resolution.

Magic gives us 8v6. I start off with Flames on his central block on 5D6, which is dispelled with everything he's got. I then make a huge mistake in not casting Shield of Saphery on my Spears (I'm used to them being steadfast) but opt for Drain instead. I contemplated this a lot, but not long enough apparantly.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

It's his Turn 2 and I can't believe all that's happened already! He makes the obvious charges: however one thing I hadn't considered was the Tzeentch Herald: he has vision to my Eagles! This is a problem because there is no room for Saerith and the Star Dragon between Naenor and the Spearelves. Hence, if he kills both Eagles and overruns into Naenor, not only is my BSB toast but I cannot fight the Keeper with my Star Dragon!

Again, the diagram isn't fully representative. Angle problems means the Daemonettes can only charge the Western Eagle. This means the Tzeentch Herald must charge the Eastern Eagle to get this super-overrun to work.

So: Daemonettes charge an Eagle, the Herald the other. I however notice that the impassable terrain is so close that overruns will not work out the way he wanted it to: the Herald must either overrun first, in which case he stops in front of the rock, blocking the Daemonettes' path further. The other option is that he doesn't overrun at all, in which case he's directly in their way! I caught a lucky break here (it was intentional placing the Eastern Eagle so close to impassable terrain but I hadn't thought of this particular situation).

The other Daemonettes charge my Spearelves. The Keeper charges my Spearelves. The Fiends charge my Lions. This game was about to be exciting!

Magic gives us 8v5 and he throws 5D6 at Doom and Darkness on Saerith, but I dispel on double 6's. This leaves him with 3D6 with which he gives his Fiends ASF + re-roll to hit against my Lions.

Combat: Eagles both die terribly. The overrun goes as described though and he can't lock Naenor! The Spearelves' champion challenges his Keeper and is killed, however I hold on steadfast due to Naenor (Saerith was LD8 due to his Herald's banner). The other Spearelves however fare much worse: I'm used to Spears being steadfast. However, only having 30 means you 'only' have 6 ranks. Against his 4, he needed to kill 7+ to bring me down beneath 5 ranks. Remember what I said about not casting Shield of Saphery? Yes, he kills 10 Spearelves, meaning I'm no longer steadfast. I break and run far, however while he doesn't catch them, he overruns into Saerith.

And things looked so good after my Turn 1...

The Lion combat however is another story: I roll a spectacular amount of hits and win combat, despite his magical augment. I think it's something like ~8 wounds each. He doesn't lose any to instability.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

First things first: analyze. Can I get out of this problem caused by my previous mistakes (failing to angle the spears, failing to pay heed to the Tzeentch Herald, failing to cast Shield on my Spearelves) or is it too late? I decide that in order for this to work, his central daemonettes must be kept away for as long as possible. The Lions seem ok against the Fiends so at least that flank's secured. I need to bring down the Daemonettes around Saerith though.

The result is as follows: Cael charges in alongside Saerith to benefit from Trickster's Shard the most. My Spears rally and I make another mistake by trying to do too much with them: I barely see the Daemonette's front and I cover a lot of room if his lone Fiends wants to be smart. The Dragon Princes reform to help the Lions if need be. Middle is too crammed for them anyway.

There's a slight error in the diagram here: Olannon moved out of the unit in the previous turn (not wanting to fight Daemonettes). I've visualized it here instead.

Magic is 7v4 and I make a mistake: I spend 4D6 at Flames, which barely goes through. He dispels with all and I cast Drain on my remaining 3D6. I should've spent 5D6 at Flames instead, which would've made his decisions very hard and probably would've seen my Flames go through. Also, I should've cast Shield on Cael.

Combat: Star Dragon loses one wound, Keeper loses one wound. Cael wounds his Herald, losing a wound in return, and Saerith along with his mount kill a heap of Daemonettes. My Lions do a great job against his Fiends and they lose badly, however rolling a '2' and a '1' for his Break test means no-one dies to instability. My Spearelves hold, again due to Naenor. His Daemonettes lose a couple to instability. However, he passes his combat reform roll, eliminating a couple of Daemonettes on his flank, thus negating my Spears' Line of Sight to them. Brilliant on his part, really poor of me not to notice this.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 3 ::

His big block cannot get into combat because it's too big! The ongoing combats are closer than the diagram suggests (it's roughly 6" from my Spears' edge to the Star Dragon). He free reforms his Daemonettes for a charge on my Spears, hoping to overrun into the Star Dragon in his turn 4 (he breaks the Spears easily with all those Daemonette ranks). I see this coming and have a plan, if we get that far.

His Fiend charges Cael and this is a big mistake in my opinion: by doing this he gives my Spears Line of Sight again. If he cannot break me or kill Cael this will greatly help me out.

Magic is 6v6. Again, everything goes towards Doom and Darkness. Again, I dispel on 6D6.

Combat and it's exciting! Lions again win over Fiends and I'm now confident they'll be fine (I believe it's something like 5 Lions vs 1 Fiend at this point), barring very poor rolls. In the central combat Cael kills the Herald. In return, he puts 1 wound past his defenses. The Daemonettes wound the Dragon three times (he rolled an insane amount of 6's, something like 6 out of 13 hits). After all the ASF-stuff is done, the Fiend attacks Cael and puts one wound on him. I fail my 5+ re-rollable and he's dead, losing me the Other Trickster's Shard too. Saerith kills a couple but I fear for combat resolution: I elect to breath fire this round to help me out. 8 hits and 4 dead Daemonettes later, along with a powerful thunderstomp, sees me barely win combat and he holds. My Spearelves put up an amazing performance, wounding the Keeper twice! This, combined with some poor rolls on his part, ensures he loses combat by 2. Having only 2W left, it's very interesting to see what'll happen next. He rolls boxcars for his break test. However, he had previously moved his Tzeentch Herald (BSB) up very aggressively, and gets another cast. This one's a 6 and he loses no wounds!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

His Keeper uses Siren Song (which he'd forgot he had in my Turn 3) to force Naenor to charge him. No matter, I would've done this regardless as he's down to 2W. I declare potion of foolhardiness as I go in.

My Dragon Princes reform to face the centre. Olannon, realizing he has a rear charge on the Tzeentch Herald, charges him (dragonbane gem and flaming attacks, mind you!). Rusty hadn't paid attention to the fact that I had a 2+ ward against flaming. This was a brilliant opportunity for me. The Spears moved wide to get a support charge for my Star Dragon in the next turn, this time ensuring no possible reform could keep them out!

Magic is 7v6 but some poor rolls sees him dispel everything.

Combat: My Lions wipe the Fiends at last and reform to face the centre. I pray for some good rolls in the other combats. I naturally start with the Dragon to get the re-rolls from Naenor, as he could very well die to the Keeper. This one's a disaster though, I roll poorly and end up losing a lot. The break test needs to be passed on 3-. I first roll 11. Then I re-roll due to Naenor. One dice comes up a 2, the other a 1! Naenor unfortunately fluffs his 4 attacks and can't even hurt the Keeper once. In return he's killed and luckily my Spears hold on LD8 steadfast. What's more, I combat reform them to being very wide. This means that for his Daemonettes to maximise, they must place themselves further East, meaning an overrun will take them into their own unit rather than the Star Dragon. My apologies for not reflecting this in the diagram! It was pretty cool seeing the spears stand something like 13 wide ;)

Olannon performs above and beyond the call of duty - putting a wound on the bsb! He thus loses by 3 (rear + charge + wound vs BSB) and needs a 6- to survive. He rolls a 10, then he rolls a 6!

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

He charges his Daemonettes into my long line of Spears. Magic is 6v7 and I dispel his 6D6 attempt at Doom and Darkness. The Spears die badly but kept the Daemonettes away from Saerith. They opt to reform rather than pursue. The remaining 4 Spearelves escape the Keeper though!

The all-important combat phase: some good rolls on my part sees me win combat! The Star Dragon is now down to 2W! Lastly, Olannon manages to finish off the Tzeentch Herald!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

My Spearelves charge the rear of the Fiend engaged with Saerith, clipping the Daemonettes' flank as well. My Lions are somewhat cautious, as are the Dragon Princes because of the Keeper. Although he could try and get stuck in the central combat, this is blockable by Olannon and I'm afraid of losing the Lions especially. I don't dare charge the Keeper with the Dragon Princes because if he wins, he gets a free reform and with 2 turns left that means he's guaranteed to see combat. I move Olannon to the Keeper's flank.

Magic is 7v4 and my primary goal is to get shield on the Star Dragon. I thus start off with a 4D6 Flames of the Phoenix which he dispels with all his dice. The Shield goes up.

Combat: I murder lots of Daemonettes and kill the Fiend and take no wounds in return on the Dragon, many thanks to the 4+ scaly skin (Daemonettes have piercing attacks) and the Shield. He makes a really low break test however and 2 Daemonettes remain, thus denying my the opportunity to combat reform my Dragon.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 5 ::

His Keeper fails his march test on the roll of double 5's! He's thus forced to try and get stuck in the central combat, however he can't get very far ;) I breath a sigh of relief for my Lions.

His Daemonettes flank my Star Dragon. Magic is 9v7 and he gets Phantasmagoria through, since I'm very afraid of Slicing Shards on Olannon.

In combat the Daemonettes put a wound on the Star Dragon and Rusty's surprised that the thing has 7 (!) wounds! He thought it'd be dead by now! In return, I kill a lot of Daemonettes, the Spears killing the last 2 on the Eastern Flank. I win and he passes the break test. I reform the Star Dragon so he doesn't have my flank anymore and reform the Spears so they can charge past Saerith.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

My White Lions are 12" away from his Daemonettes (corner-to-corner measurement) and I intend to dual-charge his rear; making a long wheel with the Lions to allow the Dragon Princes to get at least 3 models in. However, I roll a 3 and a 1 for their charge move. The Dragon Princes however make it along with the Spearelves. He's now engaged on 2 fronts. Olannon valiantly moves to block his Keeper, keeping him out of the final, most important, fight.

Magic sees me get Shield on the Star Dragon (4v2, he failed his dispel attempt).

Combat: I win big and he fails to even wound the Star Dragon! 12 Daemonettes + Herald remains.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 6 ::

His Keeper charges Olannon, furious with the fact that he cannot aid his lesser Daemons. Magic is 11v7, him rolling box cars. He gets both Phantasmagoria and ASF + re-roll through.

Combat. It's highly exciting as we believe that VP's are awarded separately for Monster mount and rider. He manages to wound the dragon 3 (!) times. I pass 2 of the armour saves and it's down to one last roll since I have Shield up: I do what Daemon players usually do - the dice turns up a 5! I kill his Herald and a few Daemonettes and after his Break test, only 2 remain (though these 2 netted him a LOT of victory points). The Keeper obviously murdered Olannon.

Image

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up the victory points, he had 1123 remaining and I had 1494 remaining. A close look at the rules showed that points are not awarded separately for monster mount and rider, thus the final dramatic 5+ ward save roll wasn't so important after all. Had it not been the case and had the Dragon died, the points would've been amazingly 1123 remaining to 1124 remaining (we both killed the other BSB and had 1 banner each so bonus points were equal).

I was ahead by 371 points. A victory to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Wow, what a game! It was indeed very intense and had a lot of epic moments and tactical challenges. I believe both Rusty and I had some glaring mistakes (his Tzeentch Herald, my Spears failing to angle his Daemonettes) but also some brilliant moves (combat reforms spring to mind).

I pointed out most of these during the report, so here I'll just evaluate the army as a whole:
- Magic defense was solid. The Annulian really helped me keep him at bay throughout most of the game. Due to Drain magic casts he usually chucked 5-6 dice at Doom and Darkness, never once getting IF. This could've changed a lot as inspiring presence is 18" and with his Banner of -2LD most of my army would've taken Fear and Break tests on LD5 base.
- The Star Dragon was solid. I cannot believe this machine! I mean I've read about people using it and stuff but it basically just got stuck in combat Turn 2, started massacring Daemons and didn't look back! The fact that it survived a whooping 9 (!) combat rounds is amazing.
- The dual-spears were game-breaking. I do not believe this army plays well without both units: they are very essential. Basically you want solid and reliable blocks around which your heavy hitters can work. This game proved just how valuable this can be: my Spears did their job excellent and Archers would've probably lost me the game.
- The Lions did really well on the flank. The first combat I had some really lucky rolls and I believe this sealed the Fiends' fate. I imagine this is a role I'll frequently be giving them: sticking them on a flank buys me a lot of time to work my flyers around his more juicy units together with the spears. To this end, Stubborn is crucial.
- The Dragon Princes might've seemed useless for major parts of the game. However their movement provoked the Keeper; kept my Western flank safe and eventually helped me (almost!) wipe out the Daemonettes. I believe they did their job well enough. I'm glad I remembered not to charge them at the Keeper when I had the chance: giving him a free reform was too risky and he definitely would've brought the central combat to a halt. With him having 2W left it's very unlikely that I would've managed to kill him.
- Eagles and Noble flyers: I really like how these play! Cael dying shows a weakness I must be aware of: against any RnF the Nobles are vulnerable unless I can break them relatively fast. Their mobility is amazing and really lets me do what I like the most: create opportunities for yourself and lock your opponent.

I hope you liked my first game with the list and this report! It's more thorough than the last ones have been. This is deliberately done because I wanted to show you my train of thought throughout the game since this is a very new type of list for me. Also, I believe this game had a lot more tactical depth than the last handful of games I've played.

Special thanks to Rusty for bringing just the kind of list I asked for ;) I imagine that next time around, he won't make it that easy for me!

C&C welcome :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:30 am 
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Thanks for a good game. Very close, very tactical, rather epic. Next time, you're dead :twisted: :wink:


I broght the daemons on the assumption that would make the most interesting game. WE would have been outmanouvered by all the flyers. Dwarfs would either have shot the flyers dead, or lost all war machines early. VC with Van Hels spam would probably been a challenge, and one where your lack of magic defense and offense would have been sorely tested. Maybe next time.

I made some errors this game
-Fiends were probably sufficiently fast to actually bypass WL on the flank. Aiming to kill WL were a bit of wishfull thinking.
-Allowing Olannon to rear charge my BSB.
-Not using siren song on the HE BSB at the first opportunity, ie. your turn 3. I was worried about fighting both a hero and spears, and should have realized that could only play in my favour.
-Not six-dicing Doom and Darkness on the general from turn 2 onwards. I were'nt aware that all units _must_ use generals ld. With six dice, IF is roughly one in four attempts. You had to take some ld tests every turn and Ld5 (Banner of despair + Doom of Darkness) would have been a very bad day for the elves.

I think your list has a lot of potential for fun and fast games. Keep it up.

EDIT: I just realized: Elves on eagles are T4 because of the composite profile. You were using T3.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:25 am 
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@Rusty:
Elves as other dont get T from mounts. All you get is wounds i think. Not 100% here as i`m at work and got no way to check before i come home.
@both Olannon/Rusty: 100 vp is that enough for victory?
Sounded like a fun game :P


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:41 am 
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I loved reading this battle report. Very detailled and inspiring for a novice player as myself. Certainly gives me insight on how to manouver, think ahaed and make tactical choises.
First battle report with a dragon I've read so far. Seems like an amazing model to use in an army.

Congrats on the victory!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:59 am 
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@rusty - Iniesta's right. You only use the mount's W, not T. Specifically, monstrous beasts as mounts are treated as monstrous cavalry (which specify to use the highest W) which are treated as cavalry which specify that you never use the T of the mount but rather the rider. I wish you were right though ;)

@Iniesta - I don't believe 100 vp is enough. If I remember correctly we usually play 0-150 draw, 150 - 50% victory, 50%+ massacre. How come you ask though, I was ahead by way more than 100VP ;)

@Lagast - good to know! I'll keep posting so keep reading ;) As for the model - the Forgeworld Carmine Dragon is on its way and I have gotten most of the parts I intend to use for the conversion. I can't wait until it's all done! This game though, a Repeater acted as the Dragon :/ Hardly fitting considering all the epic combats but that's the life of proxies!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:09 pm 
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I was being corrected at the club 8 days ago and ppl pinpointed you need 50% more VP for a victory, else its a draw. Think we may have got this a bit wrong or continued some tourneyrules into ordinary play.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Yes, the house rules we play with are different. This point about the 8th edition was brought up when we started the Mighty Empires campaign at some point and it was agreed that the margin of victory needed according to the BRB was too big. As such, I'm pretty sure the house rules we're playing with means that anything above ~150 is a victory. If anyone tried to correct you due to the BRB then it's either someone new (every game I've played have calculated VP different from the BRB) or someone who just didn't want to lose :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:29 pm 
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It was Sigbjørn! :-)
He doesnt like to loose at all, claiming hatred for his bloodcrusher still lost :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Page 6 of this tread has a report against him where he claimed a victory due to house rules under similar circumstances. Link it to him and have him make up his mind ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@Lagast - good to know! I'll keep posting so keep reading ;) As for the model - the Forgeworld Carmine Dragon is on its way and I have gotten most of the parts I intend to use for the conversion. I can't wait until it's all done! This game though, a Repeater acted as the Dragon :/ Hardly fitting considering all the epic combats but that's the life of proxies!


I will keep reading them, have read a few of your other reports as well and most likely will be reading all the others as wel..
That Carmine Dragon is one hell of a beauty, those proxies will be forgotten rather fast. Looking forward on seeing the conversion. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Really nice report, good to see the Star Dragon doing well! It looked like a bigger win, but you had to lose a lot to earn every point, so a good result either way.

rusty wrote:
-Not six-dicing Doom and Darkness on the general from turn 2 onwards. I were'nt aware that all units _must_ use generals ld. With six dice, IF is roughly one in four attempts. You had to take some ld tests every turn and Ld5 (Banner of despair + Doom of Darkness) would have been a very bad day for the elves.


Actually this isn't right- it's been errata-ed that you don't have to use the general's LD, only that you may use it. So a LD8 spearmen unit within 12" of a LD10 Prince general who has been Doom and Darknessed still gets to use his own LD8 if he wants (and indeed, you must use the best LD, so he must use his own). On the other hand, another FAQ does say that if you use D&D on a unit within range of the general, then the modifier applies after they take his LD, so if you cast D&D on that same LD8 Spearmen block, they can borrow the general's LD10, but then apply the -3LD penalty, giving them LD7. Basically, it's the solution your common sense was probably telling you in the first place :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Stormie wrote:
Really nice report, good to see the Star Dragon doing well! It looked like a bigger win, but you had to lose a lot to earn every point, so a good result either way.

rusty wrote:
-Not six-dicing Doom and Darkness on the general from turn 2 onwards. I were'nt aware that all units _must_ use generals ld. With six dice, IF is roughly one in four attempts. You had to take some ld tests every turn and Ld5 (Banner of despair + Doom of Darkness) would have been a very bad day for the elves.


Actually this isn't right- it's been errata-ed that you don't have to use the general's LD, only that you may use it. So a LD8 spearmen unit within 12" of a LD10 Prince general who has been Doom and Darknessed still gets to use his own LD8 if he wants (and indeed, you must use the best LD, so he must use his own). On the other hand, another FAQ does say that if you use D&D on a unit within range of the general, then the modifier applies after they take his LD, so if you cast D&D on that same LD8 Spearmen block, they can borrow the general's LD10, but then apply the -3LD penalty, giving them LD7. Basically, it's the solution your common sense was probably telling you in the first place :)


Are you sure about this D&D and LD-related stuff? It wasn't long ago I saw the exact other opinion claiming to be true on these very forums. I don't have the newest BRB-faq nearby so can't check right now, but we played it exactly the other way. To be honest, this also makes the most sense to me but of course, if a FAQ says otherwise then that's the rule!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Awesome. I love the picture of the first high elf turn - all those white arrows really gives you an idea of how mobile this army really is.

Aside from the couple of mistakes you mentioned, I think you played this game very well. It was pretty amazing how effective a single level 2 mage was! It gives me hope that a setup like this really can work.

Regarding your after battle analysis:

Curu Olannon wrote:
Magic defense was solid. The Annulian really helped me keep him at bay throughout most of the game. Due to Drain magic casts he usually chucked 5-6 dice at Doom and Darkness, never once getting IF. This could've changed a lot as inspiring presence is 18" and with his Banner of -2LD most of my army would've taken Fear and Break tests on LD5 base.


Agreed. I think he performed admirably. Especially considering rusty was typically swinging for the fences with his casting strategy.

Curu Olannon wrote:
The Star Dragon was solid. I cannot believe this machine! I mean I've read about people using it and stuff but it basically just got stuck in combat Turn 2, started massacring Daemons and didn't look back! The fact that it survived a whooping 9 (!) combat rounds is amazing.


That thing is a tank! Pretty incredible how long it stood up. Having said that, I wonder how it would have done versus great weapon wielding troops. I imagine it's longevity was largely due to the low strength attacks.

Curu Olannon wrote:
The dual-spears were game-breaking. I do not believe this army plays well without both units: they are very essential. Basically you want solid and reliable blocks around which your heavy hitters can work. This game proved just how valuable this can be: my Spears did their job excellent and Archers would've probably lost me the game.


Now you knew I couldn't let this one go, didn't you ;)

Let's do a thought exercise. Replace those two blocks of spears with an equivalent point archer force. 54 shots from archers puts 3 wounds on the keeper first turn. Second turn, with the eagles blocking siren song, that thing is off the board. Now they focus on the other support elements, leaving your prince and nobles free reign to support the lions, and leaving your eagles free to stall the big blocks. Supporting the lions would have busted those fiends with much fewer casualties. Once the support elements are down, the archers can start whittling away at one of those blocks of Daemonettes, making for some easy pickings for your characters.

If the daemonettes get too close for comfort, reform the archers into ranks of 5, and you've got a makeshift combat block to stall the opponent with until you can bring your heavy hitters to bear.

The eastern spears broke from combat in the first round of combat, and allowed them to get into combat with your prince to the front, allowing him to bring all of his attacks to bear. It worked out, but there were a lot of things that could, or even should have happened. The spears had a very good chance of being caught and removed from the board in the first turn. It worked out for you in the end, but I'd hardly call this a game breaking performance. They surrendered a very serious charge on your general, and it was just the fact that the incoming Daemonette attacks were so ineffective vs. the Dragon that things worked out well.

The Western spears did an admirable job of locking down that Keeper of Secrets, no doubt. The only thing better than that would have been to remove it from the board... which the archers would have done. So although they did do their job, my argument is that archers could have done it better. The fact that you had spears, and the spears needed to be supported basically allowed your opponent to dictate your first movement phase - you devoted a significant amount of energy into trying to lock down that Keeper, one of those moves resulting in your Prince getting flank charged.

This army is an extremely mobile army. While archers themselves aren't very mobile, what they are mobile with is their ability to direct their firepower wherever it is needed. This allows you to eliminate supporting units and establish movement supremacy early. In my personal opinion, this is the single most important thing to your list - dominate the movement phase. I see your spears as more of a liability. But again, that's just me. I think you did a great job of using the tools that you had, and clearly it's working for you. Just bringing this stuff up for discussion's sake.

Curu Olannon wrote:
The Lions did really well on the flank. The first combat I had some really lucky rolls and I believe this sealed the Fiends' fate. I imagine this is a role I'll frequently be giving them: sticking them on a flank buys me a lot of time to work my flyers around his more juicy units together with the spears. To this end, Stubborn is crucial.


I totally agree here. These guys are great flank protectors. They're a good matchup against something like that unit of fiends, but ideally I'd have liked to have seen a bit of character support to let you free them up a bit earlier and with fewer casualties.

Curu Olannon wrote:
The Dragon Princes might've seemed useless for major parts of the game. However their movement provoked the Keeper; kept my Western flank safe and eventually helped me (almost!) wipe out the Daemonettes. I believe they did their job well enough. I'm glad I remembered not to charge them at the Keeper when I had the chance: giving him a free reform was too risky and he definitely would've brought the central combat to a halt. With him having 2W left it's very unlikely that I would've managed to kill him.


I think their ineffectiveness was largely to do with that Keeper of Secrets boxing them in. I think I would have liked to have seen them potentially supporting the white lions, helping them take out those fiends.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Eagles and Noble flyers: I really like how these play! Cael dying shows a weakness I must be aware of: against any RnF the Nobles are vulnerable unless I can break them relatively fast. Their mobility is amazing and really lets me do what I like the most: create opportunities for yourself and lock your opponent.


I'm a sucker for the movement phase. I'm officially pumped to try a list like this myself.

Once again, keep up the good work Curu. You're going against the grain of this edition, and I love it! What type of list are you hoping to go up against next time?

D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:54 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Are you sure about this D&D and LD-related stuff? It wasn't long ago I saw the exact other opinion claiming to be true on these very forums. I don't have the newest BRB-faq nearby so can't check right now, but we played it exactly the other way. To be honest, this also makes the most sense to me but of course, if a FAQ says otherwise then that's the rule!


Actually while writing that post I had intended to say something like, "I saw someone say it worked that way in another thread, but that's not the case", but forgot to put it in [-o< I did check the FAQ as I wrote the post though, you really have to look at the FAQ and the rulebook together to make complete sense of it. It's the same as with a lower-LD general, e.g. if you have a Skaven general with LD7 and a Hellpit Abomination with LD8 (Or worse, a LD10 Giant near a LD6 Night Goblin general!), it takes LD tests on its own LD rather than the lower one. I always kinda liked the idea that a bad general was reflected in the poor quality of the other troops, but the FAQ decided otherwise.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Curu

Nice battle report and it's great to once again see the lists on Ulthuan evolve and people try out new things.

Your level 2 mage was great in turn 1 getting 3 spells off! Secondly great job of taking him out of the unit to create another headache for the opponent and make the ultimate sacrifice to the keeper to prevent him getting into the main combat, very well thought out.

Did you find a level 2 was enough magic support (I mean obviously you'd like more but was it acceptable?)

You've certainly inspired me to get the dust off my dragon at some point. That's what the High Elves are infamous for so it's great to see it getting used.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:16 am 
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@Brewmaster - appreciate the insight with regards to the Archers. However Rusty is no fool and would've kept the Keeper safe behind hard cover (fairly easy to accomplish on this board). As long as my dual-Spears remain as useful as they were this game, I'll be keeping them. I do however believe that in certain metagames actually an all-archer core with a Horde at its base could be useful. If you do give this list a try - please use Archers so we can compare and analyze :)

As for Star Dragon vs Great Weapon troops - Bloodletters would've been quite a bit worse than Daemonettes. I'm not sure what I would've done against a more typical Khorne list, or one block of letters for that matter. First of all, they don't have ASF so I hurt them a LOT more. Second, they're not as swift and don't have Siren Song. I believe I would try and hit them with at least 3-4 units at once and try to insta-gib them (with all my flyers this should be doable in 1-2 combat rounds). Against non-daemon armies, the Star Dragon kills a LOT more due to no ward save.

With regards to character support for my White Lions - my BSB initially intended to do this. Due to our house-ruled size terrain though he couldn't see over the intervening building: I intended to send Naenor into the Fiends' flank. It probably would've been better having Cael there so I wouldn't lose the re-rolls centre, however I need other trickster's shard in the Star Dragon combat. Ideally, I should've considered the free reform with my Lions a bit differently - perhaps I could've made space for the DP easier.

As for next time - I'm unsure. One opportunity is Ogre Kingdoms - he usually runs 2 Iron Blasters, 1 huge Irongut Deathstar (like 18 big, Horde before characters are taken into account) and rounds out with some Mournefang etc. Against this sort of list my primary goal is to lock down his Horde with cheap stuff and kill the rest. If an opportunity presents itself I can try for the horde (for example with a Dragon in the rear and a flyer in the front) but in general I'm more comfortable avoiding it.

@Stormie - I'll make sure rusty looks into this, considering the LD-nature of a Slaanesh list.

@Jimmy - glad you liked the report ;) The level 2 mage really performed terrific here! He cast a lot of crucial spells, held the Daemon magic at bay, killed the Herald, saved the Star Dragon with multiple Shields and eventually kept the Keeper away. Not too shabby for a T3 Elf without support ;) As for magic support - it was acceptable, given the nature of the list. I really did feel like having Life at a couple of points to heal the dragon but I do not believe this can be worked into the list effectively. A nice thing with High is the low casting values AND the added 3rd spell, which means you have some options when those 10+ phases hit you. With Life you're basically stuck with casting regen - to which shield is CLEARLY superior. The 1-wound heal would've been awesome though. Lastly, the chance of getting stuff like Fury, Courage, Flames and Vaul's almost always brings you something useful!

As for you trying a Dragonlist - how would you play it? I believe several approaches could work. One idea is to run a really hard Horde along with it (30 WL, +1M banner, combat tooled BSB), another is to run a noble-bus of SH (3 cheap ones, one being a BSB) among other things. What's your take?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:28 am 
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@Brewmaster D
Archers vs Slaanesh Daemons would not work.
HE Turn 1: Keeper in hard cover.
DoC Turn 1: Keeper moving up 20 and using siren song on anything. Preferably archers. It's pretty hard to block a long line of archers from charging unless you use two eagles, which would also partially block your shooting. If nothing else, I would use Siren song on an eagle to be in combat and safe from shooting. I would also move up every other unit.
HE turn 2: your one effective turn of shooting, but one archer unit is already in combat, fleeing or has blocked LoS. And archers will also have to reform to receive charges.
DoC turn 2: Charges all over, archers die.
The thing with archers is that you need a lot of frontage to use effectively. That makes them vulnerable, and harder for the rest of the army to manouvre. In short, fast daemons run straight over archers.

EDIT: FAQv.1.5 states that units _may_ use the generals inspiring presence. Oh well, I will just have to use the Masque, Doom and Darkness and Banner of Despair for a nice 6-8 penalty to Ld then...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
As for next time - I'm unsure. One opportunity is Ogre Kingdoms - he usually runs 2 Iron Blasters, 1 huge Irongut Deathstar (like 18 big, Horde before characters are taken into account) and rounds out with some Mournefang etc. Against this sort of list my primary goal is to lock down his Horde with cheap stuff and kill the rest. If an opportunity presents itself I can try for the horde (for example with a Dragon in the rear and a flyer in the front) but in general I'm more comfortable avoiding it.


When faced with a tank, bring a bazooka (sun tzu). Why not try a Seer (death) mage and throw purple sun at it til it goes away? Mount mage and send him with DPs for mobility to get into flank. Or you can Dweller the horde into oblivion. That's six ogres dead for each successfull casting, with a possible bonus of removing characters, and healing your dragon into the bargain. The downside is the very likely demise of your mage, given your standard roll when miscasting.

As you're probably aware Deathstars ogres are easy to outmanouvre. You can also use terrain heavily to your advantage. Buildings remove impact hits, and impassable terrain stop cannonballs. Your dragon can charge over impassable terrain to kill the cannons. Your spears I would deploy very carefully. Maybe behind terrain to allow them to reform and escape any ogre units, until your fast movers can set up a flank. That's all the semi-useful advice I got. Considering you got trashed by the ogres last time I reckon you need it :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Couple things I'm not clear on:

1. I was under the impression the Large Target rule denied the hard cover bonus from obstacles. He'd have to be 100% hidden as far as I understand the rules.
2. What's to stop you from placing your two lines of archers 1" apart from each other, and an eagle facing towards them 1" in front of the 1" gap between them. Seems like this would altogether prevent siren song until the problems are eliminated. Might lose 4 shots off of each unit? Is there something I'm missing? (Honest question, I don't play Daemons much, and typically not slaneesh)
3. There's more targets to shoot at than just the Daemon. The herald, the fiends, heck even whittling down the Daemonettes would be worthwhile. Even assuming the Keeper gets in combat with the archers, the archers are no worse off than spears due to his strength - he'll tear through them both with very little discrimination lol.

But Curu, you're having success with the spears, so I'll drop the subject for now. Time to put my money where my mouth is and give it a try myself :P

Looking forward to reading your next report Curu!

D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
1. I was under the impression the Large Target rule denied the hard cover bonus from obstacles. He'd have to be 100% hidden as far as I understand the rules.
The Brewmaster is correct. However, since none of those rocks look like "obstacles" to me (a specific terrain type from the rulebook), it is still likely they could provide hard cover. Or even the units of Daemons could provide hard cover. All depends upon how big the Keeper model is. Ideally the Daemon player uses a Keeper model that is only slightly taller than other Daemons, and uses very thick and dense rank-and-file Daemon models, so they can obscure more than 50% of the Keeper, but he can still see over them.

Because it only applies to "obstacles", the "Large Target" rule is 99.9% meaningless.


Curu, the idea of popping a big bloodletter unit in one round will almost never work. I charged a bloodletter horde the other day using warrior of chaos, with a Marauder horde, Khorne Knights, and two chaos characters in another marauder block. I tied combat.
Spears against bloodletters, 20 attacks, 15 hits, 5 dead. Star Dragon and Prince kill another 6. Dragon Princes kill another 4. About 15 total, including Thunderstomp. Between spears and Dragon Princes, they will kill about as many of your guys. You come out better if you can kill the Herald with ASF and remove Hatred, but there is no way you win by enough to pop 40 bloodletters in one round. Always always always assume a Daemon unit will survive.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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@rusty - although it would be fun, I will not tailor. Gotta see what this Dragonlist is worth :)

@Brewmaster_D - we play with ETC size categories. All impassable terrain is Size 2 (virtually everything on the board in this game) which means the Keeper will almost always have hard cover. Your second point: He can push the Keeper very far so that a corner-blocking eagle wouldn't be enough - due to your allowed wheel during a charge you could get into base-to-base. As such, an Eagle might have to place himself directly in front. Anyways - looking forward to seeing your go at such a list :)

@dabber - long time no see :) As for Bloodletters - it depends on a lot of things. I do get your point though, however with all the mobility I have, it should be doable. By properly engaging a lot in the flank and rear he'll lose tons of attacks: Assuming I hit Spears front-to-front, nearby his left flank. The Dragon Princes hit the left flank and the Prince hits the rear, near the left flank. Almost half his unit is rendered helpless here as they have nothing in base-to-base-contact. The other half are forced to target sub-optimal opponents (Star Dragon or Prince, Dragon Princes). Between breathing fire, thunderstomp... A lot could happen! Killing Blow and 5+ ward could definitely ruin my day though. The point is, I don't want to be locked in combat against such a unit for longer than necessary.

Example of combat:

D = Dragon
DP = Dragon Princes
S = Spearelves
B = Bloodletters

DP DD
DP BBBBBBBBBBB
DP BBBBBBBBBBB
DP BBBBBBBBBBB
DP BBBBBBBBBBB
SSSSS
SSSSS

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:14 pm 
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A few questions to ask if you don't mind:

1. How important do you feel the 2 supporting noble-eagles are to the dragon performing his role?
2. Do you think units of cavalry (either SHs or DPs) could perform a similar role to the noble-eagles, or do you feel it necessary to 'target saturate', and have 3 fliers (well, 5 in total with the GEs) causing havoc?
3. Do you feel the dragon offers enough to the list to justify his cost (instead of say, an eagle prince or even a cavalry prince or something similar)?

I love the mobility this list offers, yet I find myself wondering if all of it is necessary or if at some point it becomes a bit of overkill and points could be better spent on supporting infantry or something. Just trying to answer the question myself.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@dabber - long time no see :) As for Bloodletters - it depends on a lot of things. I do get your point though, however with all the mobility I have, it should be doable.
With only 4 units on your side, plus the fliers, I just don't generally agree. He should be able to keep anything except the fliers in his front. But obviously that comes down to game play, and is influenced by exactly how much stronger the Daemon list gets. Swapping daemonettes for bloodletters is a large upgrade in my opinion, but there is additional room to improve by breaking up the big fiend unit into various smaller units, and those smaller units eliminate your mobility advantage.
In this report, he also didn't get much from the strongest thing in his army - the Keeper with Siren.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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@Tankertruck - good questions! Knowing the answers to questions such as these is vital; if you cannot give reason for your choices, some of your choices are probably wrong ;)

1. The noble-eagles I feel are very crucial. They make the flying threat go from something like "This Dragon can be stopped by steadfast infantry" to "ok I can't challenge him because there's 2 of these in my face!". It lets the Dragonlord do his job, if needed. It also allows him to get help, fast, if he's in trouble. In addition to this, it allows me to snipe mages and bsb's. A lot of steadfast armies still struggle if the general and/or bsb dies - OnG and Skaven spring to mind.

2. The extra mobility you get from flying cannot be stressed enough. If you look at a Keeper of Secrets compared to Bloodthirster, it's just two different worlds. Also, what the Nobles do that the cavalry cannot is grind over multiple turns of combat. Dragon Princes and Silver Helms, while ironically not as mobile as the Eagle Nobles, are more dependent on mobility to function well. Also, being able to fight corner-to-corner is huge here: if I charge a monster in the face with a Dragon a Noble can support and still get his full potential whereas a Dragon Princes unit would just contribute with a small amount.

3. Taking the Star Dragon is about 2 things: mobility and insane combat potential. No cavalry Prince we can build comes close to the destructive power of a Star Dragon, regardless of items, as long as he's not magically buffed. He does not have the mobility either. On a general basis, I do not however believe that the Star Dragon is worth nearly 400 points. Why take him then? I believe the metagame currently is in a place where a very mobile and very destructive unit can find its effect amplified. For example, High Elf and Dark Elf elite infantry units, typically sized 14-21 strong, will really fear this unit. I can easily bring such a unit down in a single turn. If they have a champion, a Noble charges in alongside! Lots of lists also feature smallish cavalry units of 5-10 strong. Getting a charge on these with a Dragon is just insanely powerful as most of them will not stand a chance against its high T and 7W. So, although in general it's probably overcosted, I believe it's viable because of the metagame. If you take an Eagle Lord you're way more likely to get stopped by shooting (if the Prince dies the Dragon is still a force to be reckoned with) and the extra points you spend don't synergize with what you're trying to do. Effectively, the Star Dragon becomes a combat block of its own (i.e. capable of beating most units barring big GW hordes and Deathstars on its own) whereas the Eagle Prince is more of a pure Hammer (i.e. he needs support to have a chance against combat blocks). The extra points you spend on the Dragon could of course, in the Eagle Prince scenario, be spent on a secondary character (Eagle Noble?) along with a supporting unit (e.g. Dragon Princes). However, this changes the focus of the army: each element is by itself weaker. While this gives you redundancy, it lacks the force concentration capability of a Star Dragon. Which do you think a Dwarf army fears the most - A Star Dragon behind its flanks or 2 Eagle Nobles? Which would you rather charge 14 White Lions with?

If anything were to be dropped here, I suppose it would be the BSB's Eagle. By mounting him on a steed and beefing the Dragon Princes up by a model or two they would gain a lot. However, my mobility and force concentration potential would suffer, not to mention how much harder it would be to keep that vital re-roll centralized. I can see how more elite infantry (preferably a unit of Swordmasters) would be attractive with such a setup though.

Given your concern for me spending too much points in characters/mobility - how would you run this list differently?

@dabber - it all depends on the specific context; list, terrain, deployment - it all matters a great deal. Daemons are a special case though: not many units can reliably claim a 5+ save against my Dragon, cavalry, White Lions and Nobles alike! This effectively reduces my damage output by one third (statistically).

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:31 pm 
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I'll have to give the cover rules a once over when I get home. Seems to me an obstacle could be used to describe anything preventing me from shooting a target. If it is the case, then dabber you're correct, there might as well be no large target rule.

Can you link me to the relevant ETC rules Curu? I'm interested, as true line of sight is something that has always bothered me about this edition - I don't like that it discourages cool models and elaborate conversions, and encourages "strategic modeling" like the example dabber mentioned. The closest thing I could find was this:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=78142

But most of the rules I see there actually make it easier to shoot large targets.

Regarding the archers being ineffective versus a Slaneesh army (yeah yeah, I know I said I'd drop it lol) - The archers do a very key thing here. They make the opponent extremely predictable. Having that kind of firepower at your disposal means that your opponent will be very predictable with where they go. The archers wouldn't be the only element to the army - there's also a prince on a dragon who is perfectly capable of dealing with that Daemon. You know the Daemon is going to go after your archers and try to siren song them, and you know he doesn't want to match it up versus the white lions. Using those two tools, it shouldn't be tough to co-ordinate a second turn Prince charge to coincide with any siren song-ing that might be going on. The Eagle trick makes it even easier, as there's only a couple spots on the board where the Daemon could position himself to force a charge.

Movement phase supremacy has three elements - having fast moving units of your own, removing his fast moving support units, and forcing predictable moves from your opponent. The first allows you more freedom of movement to plan offensives, and the latter means that you can plan very easily for your opponents moves. Both are equally as effective at controlling the movement phase (Furion's list is a great example of using ranged force to make an opponent's movements predictable)

In summary, I think (again, untested and very possibly totally out to lunch) that while the list is going to be mobile regardless of your core selection, it's the control that the archers afford that shows their true benefit. Very few armies are going to want to sit back and take 54 bowshots a turn. This imperative to get into combat would be a tool that can be used to your advantage.

I can appreciate that the spears did well. I do, however, think that regardless of how well something performs, the question of "could they, or anything else have performed better".

I'm loving this discussion - even though it's clear that you're sticking with the spears, having to defend my choice to field archers to your various points is very helpful to me. It's all stuff I'll (hopefully) remember when I actually field my own version of the list.

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