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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Location: Oslo, Norway
My second game from Sunday, facing Iniesta's Orcs and Goblins. Counting well over 200 models in his army, I knew I'd face a foe more numerous than ever before.

:: The Green Horde ::

His army list was roughly as follows:

Orc lvl 4 mage - hex scroll
Black Orc BSB - ??
Orc lvl 1 mage - 5+ ward save for savage orcs
Goblin lvl 2 mage - power stone
Goblin lvl 1 mage - dispel scroll

27 Savage Orcs
95 Speargoblins
80 Archer Goblins
25 Archer Goblins
3x10 squig herds (1 squig each)
2 Mangler Squigs
1 Snotling Pump Wagon
2 Catapults
2 Doom Divers
2 Bolt Throwers

My army list was a slight deviation:

Archmage, ring of fury, wand, anti-fire gem
Mage, crystal
BSB Reaver
Prince Armour of Stars, Seafarer

Standard core

30 White Lions, Banner of Sorcery + other trickster's shard
7 Swordmasters

2 RBT
2 Eagles

:: Getting ready and deploying ::

We rolled Meeting Engagement - a special version where you don't have reserves. I got to choose corner and deploy first. Magic was as follows for him:
Lvl 4 - 1,3,5,6
Orc lvl 1 - 4
Goblin lvl 2 - 1, 5
Goblin lvl 1 - 4

For me:
Metal - 2, 3
High - 1,2,4,5,6

Image

Note: Swordmasters are not shown here as I (again) failed to include them in Battle Chronicler. They were deployed behind the hill on my North flank.

I went first after he failed to roll a 6.

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Small shuffles, including getting my Archmage in turn for Flames by marching the Archers.

Magic sees Vaul's scrolled (targeted his big Spear Goblins). I get Flames through and it obliterates roughly half his unit and puts a wound on the BSB.

Shooting - not much is in range. The RBT's combine to bring the Pump Wagon down to 1W.

Image

:: Orcs and Goblins Turn 1 ::

Everything moves up, characters swapping unit. Magic 8v7. He starts off with an IF Gork's Warpath on 5D6 which fails to do much. The result draws away his remaining 3D6, meaning Flames come again next phase at S4!

Shooting kills an Eagle and a few Archers from my Archmage's bunker. Panic is passed, no worries.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

Shuffling further behind to gain a turn more worth of shooting in against him. The remaining Eagle moves close to 2 units of Goblins, drawing out a single fanatic and succumbing to the little spinner (this fanatic was the only one he had (!) and did nothing for the rest of the game).

Magic sees Flames take him down to 17 models remaining. The rest of the phase is 9v6 but I fail to impress him by failing casting rolls and him dispelling Flames on the 80 Archers.

Shooting does very little, all I can manage is to kill a mangler.

Image

:: Orcs and Goblins Turn 2 ::

An animosity roll is failed, rest move up. Savage Orcs enter the central building, pump wagon charges my Swordmasters (who are still not in the diagram - sorry!).

Magic is 6v6 - he uses power stone to move his Bow Horde and I let it go, fearing his mage-sniping spells. The rest is dispelled.

Shooting does next to nothing.

Combat - 3 Swordmasters remain after the Pump Wagon is done. They kill it and reform to face his Northmost Squig Herd.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Swordmasters charge Squig Herd.

Lions wheel to force his Savages out of the building to prevent a charge on his Archer Horde. Archmage jumps back to Archers.

Magic 12v7. Vaul's on 4D6 (Savage Orcs) is Hex Scrolled but it fails to do anything. I remove his improved ward save. Fury goes through, killing a Squid. Curse is dispelled, as is Flames.

Shooting kills a little here and there, nothing major though.

Combat - I kill his Herd and a single Swordmaster survives, overrunning.

Image

:: Orcs and Goblins Turn 3 ::

Savages move out of building. Rest move up, though 1 herd fails animosity.

Magic is 11v7. He starts off with an IF Brainbursta, dealing 1W. I dispel the rest.

Shooting kills a couple of Lions and a couple of Archers.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

I charge his Savage Orcs.

Magic 6v3 - I simply cast it all at Flames and he's powerless to defend. 42 of the Goblins burn up. What I have worth of shooting goes into the Horde, too, leaving around 25-30 only.

Combat - with Trickster's Shard I'm able to locate a lot of attacks forcing him to re-roll wards. This ensures I kill a LOT of the Savages (I believe it was like 17, leaving 10) and the Prince kills his mage in a challenge. He kills 1 (!!) Lion in return and is run down.

Image

After this, he concedes the game: both his big Hordes are reduced to next-to-nothing, his combat unit is dead and my Lions are 23 remaining.

:: Victory Points ::

As he surrendered it's a massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

Finally, a win! Having had quite a few losses recently, this felt good.

With that being said, let's analyze what happened:

First of all, as he commented himself, he could've just deployed in the opposite corner and taken a small victory by killing RBT's + Eagles. I would've been powerless against this. A lot of lists are able to do this against me, meaning that I'm having a very hard time playing Meeting Engagement - I can't just deploy close to him either!

As the game played out, I yet again find the army rather static. I don't believe it would've been better for me to create any dynamics here. Playing as I did, a static gunline, is probably optimal, given his deployment. To be honest I find this playstyle very boring - the only tactical decisions you make is how many dice to throw at what spell and what to shoot at. Movement is next to non-existant. With him being unable to deal with my Lions at range, it's a given that they'll murder anything they meet in close combat, especially backed up by Saerith.

Granted, this scenario does favour castling tactics, especially with such a tiered hill piece. Regardless, I feel that every victory I have with this list (so far) is because I play it statically and simply make the 'obvious response' moves. Granted, a win against OK would've made me feel otherwise, as in that game I dictated the movement throughout exactly as I wanted to.

I'm left with the following questions, having played most of the scenarios in the upcoming tournament:
- How do I deal with an army like this in this scenario? I can't deploy in a castle like I did this game, nor can I deploy offensively as it'll be easy for him to choose his fights, way too early.
- How do I deal with the flanks in Blood and Glory? When the width is cut down, achieving a proper refused flank and dictating movement is a lot harder, especially given my rather large footprint
- How does this army play with a lot of terrain? I believe that it'll mostly be a disadvantage for me, as firing lanes become thin and cover is abundant.

Overall, I'm seriously considering simply switching back to the cavalry approach. Having played this kind of a list has been interesting though, and taught me a few things:
- A back-up mage with a good, synergetic spell or two, is golden.
- Annulian Crystal is a must-have, it's simply way too good to be left at home
- High Magic is a very flexible lore but lacks the 'mmmph' to deal with really tough situations
- RBT's are horribly overcosted
- Archers are relatively reliable but they take a long time to actually kill something
- A big unit of Archers can sort of act as a bunker but will break easily to any dedicated combat unit
- White Lions ARE actually worth taking as they're the most forgiving elite infantry unit we have

So, here's a copy of the previously posted list which I, at the moment, consider the most likely list I'll be bringing to the tournament:


Life Archmage with Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 335
Prince on Barded Elven Steed with Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Dragon Armour, Shield - 281
Nobe BSB with Great Weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone - 168
Beasts Mage with Annulian Crystal - 140

Characters total: 924

35 Spearelves with Full Command and Banner of Swiftness - 355
12 Archers, musician - 137
12 Archers, musician - 137

Core total: 629

9 Dragon Princes with Full Command and Banner of Sorcery, Ironcurse Icon - 375
15 White Lions with Standard Bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and Musician - 253
14 Swordmasters with Musician - 216

Special total: 844

1 Great Eagle
1 Great Eagle

Rare total: 100

Army Total: 2497

As you can see it resembles my old thoughts about the cavalry prince approach more than it resembles this magic-shooting synergy list. With that being said, having tried this new approach definitely brought a couple of elements into the list which never would've made it there otherwise.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your input :)

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Congratulations on the win!
Either this shows a real luck advantage with magic, or maybe it shows the virtue of High Magic. You got off Vaul's twice and Flames twice (sort of three times with the second hit), while he got off Warpath just once. And Warpath did very little, I presume from a poor scatter? If that Warpath hits the White Lions, the game is different.
Actually, I think it just shows how valuable the Annulian Crystal and Banner of Sorcery are, plus some bad luck on his side.

His shooting also seems to have been poor. A few archers, an Eagle, "next to nothing", a couple lions, a couple archers.
Your shooting got both manglers, which was very necessary, and picked at stuff. Almost got the pump wagon.
How effective were your magic bows this game?


I think what you've seen is confirmation of what many people concluded at the start of 8th edition. Ballistic skill shooting is poor, especially ballistic skill shooting that is largely static. Skirmishers and Fast Cavalry that shoot may still be useful, but not ones that are limited to 4 or 5 inch moves. Of course, that basic concept has been true for several editions - shooting power comes from war machines, not guys with weapons.

How much has a spell synergy on the back-up mage been important? For example, he never cast a spell this game. When he had Seerstaff, and picked a couple of really really good spells, he has more regular impact, but I'm not sure that makes sense generally.
I think a second Mage is worthwhile for caring the Crystal, and he should pick a lore with a good signature spell, but you should expect him to rarely attempt it, and to get it off even more rarely.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Quote:
To be honest I find this playstyle very boring - the only tactical decisions you make is how many dice to throw at what spell and what to shoot at. Movement is next to non-existant.


=D> finally!

always loved your cavalry-list reports and couldnnt really see how you got attracted to the gunline approach so much. ofcourse its not a 100% real gunline, and its different because no-one plays HE like this (except furion) but its still mainly about getting a good deployment and then hoping you can wither down the opponent enough before he crushes you in combat.

for me, the movement phase is by far the most interesting phase in warhammer, and you basicly surrendered that phase with this kind of list...

i like you new list but i do agree with other posters that the hammer unit is kind of expensive compared to the rest of you units, and that this list is pretty character heavy.

some other thoughts:
-maybe, if you want to keep some of the ranged power, change the spear unit with a archer horde? this gives you decent shooting and they can still be effective in combat as an anchor unit.
-some players will agree and others will think i'm an idiot, but i would split the swordmaster unit in 2x7. this makes them an understimated unit instead of a feared unit, while they hardly lose effectivity, AND give you an extra drop.

anyway, congratz on the win, i think you needed it :wink: and i hope to see you go back to a more dynamic approach ^^

cheers,

J


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Nice to see a break in the clouds! Congratulations!

As far as your questions go, perhaps I can help shed some light.

As to the first, how to address him turtling away from you, you'd basically have to deploy everything on the lines and attempt to magic / shoot your way into a position where you could then charge turn five or six and try and claim some victory points. However, with as many war machines as he was fielding (assuming that he'd actually hit a reasonable amount, which it seems he couldn't this game) that can be tricky, making them a good target for your bow-fire the first couple turns if you can manage it.

As for the second, you realistically can't, and have to instead position your White Lions and Archer Anvil next to one another, in the center, with the other Archers back 4-5" and off to one side or another (castle conclave basically, but in the middle of the board). At this point, you just force him to funnel into your front by shooting at all his flank units until all he's got left is what's going to hit your Archers and Lions but this can be rough if his main combat units are in the middle: there you have to hope your Lions are high enough number that they pull through for you.

Onto the third, you deploy as far back against the table edge as possible and preferably turtled up to one side. The added terrain (especially houses) means that your opponent's army will also have a hard time bringing everything to bear so you prioritize shooting his outflankers above his combat blocks (as in Blood and Glory) and magicking his combat blocks. Again, it comes down to if your White Lions can hold, but an eagle or two can buy you time to whittle them down a bit after you've cleared out the flanks.

As for the list, I like that it's moved back it's original theme while still managing to incorporate some of the new tactics. You've hit a pretty good blend here and hopefully that'll serve you well. Overall, I'm happy with it, but there are a couple things I'd suggest changing:

Firstly, since the Archmage is taking Life, you probably don't need the Guardian Phoenix. He's still going to be staying out of combat but also has access to Earthblood which, since you aren't taking Seerstaff, would be a fairly reliable swap for Fury of the Forest and would also help keep your troops alive. Moving onto the Prince, I personally would swap the Giant Blade for a simple Great Weapon and use the points saved to either get a Ward (Guardian Phoenix), making him a Mage-Knight (probably with Life to heal himself and grant Regeneration to the expensive Dragon Princes), or save the points and use them elsewhere, but I understand the reasoning.

As for the Noble BSB, I'm not a fan of the kit on this guy and would rather see him live through the game by not getting into combat than risking it for a couple more combat resolution. I'd bunker him in with one of the elites or archers, or rethink the core and add a small unit of spears to act as his bodyguard (which would help add some more misdirection to your list if need be). Finally, when it comes to the mage, I agree with Dabber that you'll want a solid signature spell that you can reliably cast on two dice. To that end, I'd suggest taking another Life Wizard as it will help keep your Spearblocks and Elites both alive if you end up having to rush a gunline list and also give you the ability to heal your characters a bit more.

The list as a whole looks good but I still feel it'll have some trouble with misdirectors and outflankers. Maybe consider squeezing a Chariot in there or a small unit of Spearmen (as I recommended above) to help protect your flanks without committing your Eagles. Alternatively, you could simply buy more eagles so that you accomplish both roles.

The list as I'd field it:

Archmage, Level Four, Lore of Life, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 310
Prince, Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, Dragon Armor, Talisman of Loec - 230
Noble, BSB - 110
Mage, Level One, Lore of Life, Annulian Crystal - 140

30 Spearmen, Banner, Musician, Banner of Swiftness - 300
10 Spearmen, Musician - 95
10 Archers, Musician - 115
10 Archers, Musician - 115

9 Dragon Princes, Banner, Musician, Champion, Banner of Sorcery - 370
18 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 298
14 Swordmasters, Musician - 216

Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50

TOTAL: 2499

Alternatively, since you're now only really using the level one for the Annulian Crystal (the Life Archmage will probably be using up most of your dice, especially when combined with Ring of Fury), you could drop him and make your Prince into a Life Mage-Knight to help protect the expensive Dragon Prince unit or even Beasts as you'd originally planned (prioritizing his cast of Earthblood over the Archmage's). Something like:

Prince, Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Annulian Crystal, Luckstone - 292

Not as good of an armor save, and you have to drop the Talisman of Loec, but you gain the ability to give the Princes regeneration, which will really help if you have to try and go toe-to-toe with Deathstars. This saves you a total of 78 points which gives you a bit of flexibility, especially when combined with the hundred points which right now are going into the extra eagles, meaning you could consider a small unit of Dragon Princes to help clear flanks for you or two Chariots which would accomplish a similar goal and give you some diversity and combination with your Cavalry. That option might look something like this:

Archmage, Level Four, Lore of Life, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 310
Prince, Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Dragonhelm, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Annulian Crystal, Luckstone - 292
Noble, BSB, Heavy Armor - 114

30 Spearmen, Banner, Musician, Banner of Swiftness - 300
10 Spearmen, Musician - 95
10 Archers, Musician - 115
10 Archers, Musician - 115

9 Dragon Princes, Banner, Musician, Champion, Banner of Sorcery, Ironcurse Icon - 375
18 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 298
14 Swordmasters, Musician - 216
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50

TOTAL: 2500


Finally, as a last option, you could swap the Eternal Flame banner onto the BSB (bunking in Archers) and take a Bolt Thrower instead of the two Eagles / two chariots. This would help you deal with Hydras and Aboms much more effectively, although you haven't been fighting against those lists recently so if you're not worried about them, you could pass. In a tournament though I feel you might have problems with opponents keeping their monsters away from your Swordmasters.

Anyway, all food for thought.

Hope that helps!

Axiem


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:07 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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@dabber - the virtue of High Magic lies in spells 5 and 6 in my opinion. I'm starting to believe that a level 2 with seerstaff, picking these spells, can be a very useful and flexible solution to a lot of our usual problems. He incidentally also receives Drain Magic for added defense! As for his Warpath, it scattered poorly and indeed would've made a big impact. Banner of Sorcery + Annulian Crystal were devastating in this game! His shooting was rather poor, indeed. A couple of misfires, bolt throwers constantly missing and good armour saves on my Lions helped out here. My magic bows were next to useless, I believe they killed a mangler squig and like 5 goblins. With that being said, they were out of range for a turn or two while the game was pretty short. Also, I had few good targets. Agreed with your reasoning behind a support mage -> see my proposed list ;)

@de kaasboer - the gunline was more about the synergy in the list rather than 'stand still and blast away'. As it turned out, I couldn't get it to work properly and didn't find it very rewarding to play (what's that? You think these are linked? No way...). It might be an effective playstyle, but I'm more comfortable with the cavalry prince I believe, at least for now. As for my new hammer - it's no more expensive than e.g. Seredain's bus, since my BSB is on foot. I don't feel that the Silver Helms really add enough punch, hence I left them at home. My infantry is still a rather dangerous proposal for most lists, meaning that the cavalry alone isn't necessarily the only thing which can win me the game. As for having an Archer horde - I believe having the potential to break steadfast is more important in this list. With regards to splitting up Swordmasters - I thought about this but it really makes Life + Beasts worse since they target single units.

@Axiem - thoughtful input, as always. This time around however I believe I disagree with quite a bit. With that being said, I'll keep your thoughts in mind for later. This list may very well see testing and tweaking before I'm happy :) I'll await a list analysis until after the tournament. I have one final game on Thursday, against Rusty. He promised to field a rather nasty Slaanesh Daemon list, which will be a real trial-by-fire!

One point I'd like to address straight away is the Guardian Phoenix: the abundance of mage-sniping things showing up (Ogre Snipers, Lizardmen Banehead, Feedback Scroll, Miscasts) I believe a hard ward save (i.e. one that doesn't require a spell to be cast) is worth its weight in gold on an expensive wizard.

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Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Hehe did some major mistakes in this battle. First not dispelling the remains in play before throwing gorks warpath and getting IF and losing the dice i was gonna dispel it with. Warpath hit against him twice, with both scattering far and in the wrong directions and ending with a 1, and he got a perfect hit on my S.Orcs. Also i should have dispelled his RIP spell and letting the rest go through, it wouldnt have hurt as much letting him pick some magic items from me. also if i should engage his WL it should be with the savageorcs in the building as i hadn`t taken them down sufficiently before engaging and a 10 vs 10 models fight wouldnt be that bad for me.
I found it too boring to stay back in this scenario, but as Curu said if it was in the tourney i would have, as his deployment so close together in a hill and a long way to walk was rather hard for me to counter. I then would have got the advantage through better range on my foot of gork boosted, than his spells AND shooting on him advancing while i stayed back and avoiding 1-3 turns of massive arrow fire. As i did win last game rather decisive i decided to lump forward and see how it fared me.

Cant agree more on this being a boring army to play against(but for a tourney thats ok), and the scenario/terrain made it horrific. I was also just bringing a tailored 2350 army i was gonna use against DOC for our campaign but as he didnt show i just filled in 150p more ng and some S.O. so i don`t consider my army for that night optimal as a tourney army.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:15 pm 
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Don't have much time today, so I'll be brief and to the point:

Congrats on your win! You certainly earned it with the hard fought battles before it. At the end of the day, though, I think you're very much like me; playing a list like this is like trying pound a square peg into a round hole. It's just not your playstyle.

The new list looks awesome, in my opinion. The only gripe I'd have is the lore choice on the level 1; I find wildform to be too difficult to cast for low end mages, and it ends up being a huge power dice sink. Might I suggest light? There are quite literally no bad rolls on that lore, and most spells you get a 2 for one deal (single target or 12" bubble or Low and High Strength versions). Worst come to worst, it gives you access to a few more flaming attacks. Metal might also be an option for dealing with heavy armour, but it also requires more dice.

Regardless, looking good! Can't wait to see it played!

D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:25 pm 
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I have a thought about your shooty army, should you wish to keep trying it.

You say you want a tactical, maneuverable shooting list with good unit synergy that can dominate the movement phase. Then it turns out that the smartest way to play your army is by hardly moving at all and playing as a static gunline, which is not only not fun or rewarding (for either player), it's clearly not as good as something other armies can do. I feel your pain, having experimented with this sort of thing too and coming to the same conclusion. But just now I thought:

Why not swap out the RBTs for reavers?
They can move 18" more or less freely among the enemies' lines, hitting on 4+ with their bows, delaying combat blocks, and finally rear-charging with the lions when the time comes.

Also, don't be afraid to exceed 25% core.
Just because our archers aren't, point-for-point on paper, the best models in the game doesn't mean you can't have more than 52 of them. I think one reason your list plays so statically is that your archers aren't combat-capable, primarily because they're in such small blocks. Yes, they get more shots that way, but they can't stand up to enemy units. You pay so many points for ASF, WS, LD, and I on your Archers; you need to use it by bulking out those units and using their quick reforms to break steadfast, grind down junk troops, or even stand up to mediocre combat troops like savage orcs, etc on their own. High elf units are flexible, and you need to use all of their strengths together to get a good result. I think that's the key to making your list play the way you originally envisioned it and letting you compete in every phase.

Without doing too much tinkering, I see a list like the following being effective (or at least more to your taste, which I gather means more to you):

archmage - 270
mage - 175
bsb - 165
30 archers - 340
30 archers - 340
10 reavers - 220
10 reavers - 220
14 SMs - 220
30 lions - 500
eagle - 50
total - 2500

on your Prince: I have used the Seafarer bow many times, and I would never take it again without Flaming Sword of Rhuin in my list somewhere. Reaver Bow is simply better. I like Reaver Bow on your BSB, but I'd stay away from Seafarer unless it's on your Archmage, and even then I think I'd rather just have 5 more Archers. I'd say a Prince is counterintuitive at any rate, since they're (debatably) good at combat and your list was supposed to be shooty.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Yes, final warm-up game before the tournament - this time against a nasty Daemons of Chaos army. I tried a variation of the cavalry prince approach. Want to find out how I did? Read on!

:: Hellspawn ::

My list:

Life Archmage, Wand, 5+ Ward, Ring of Fury
Cavalry Prince
Beasts mage
Combat BSB on foot

35 Spearelves, full command + movement banner
12 Archers, musician
12 Archers, musician

15 Lions, flamebanner
14 Swordmasters, musician
9 Dragon Princes, full command and banner of sorcery

2 Eagles

His list:

Bloodthirster, dispel scroll, hatred, killing blow, 3+/5++
Slaanesh Herald, Siren Song
Slaanesh Herald, Siren Song
Tzeentch Herald, Flying, Loremaster (Shadow)

35 Daemonettes
36 Daemonettes
6 Chaos Furies

6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Fiends of Slaanesh
1 Fiend of Slaanesh

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I didn't get regrowth. Note to self: get the Seerstaff. For Beasts I rolled 6, swapping it for Wyssans.

We rolled blood and glory and he got to choose side. The board had plenty of terrain and the tight deployment didn't suit me much: I wanted to create a favourable combat for Spears, grinding vs one unit of Daemonettes: killing the Herald in 1 turn I'm confident this is a fight I can win with superior magical support. If this could happen, the other unit could be dual-engaged by both elite infantry units, while the cavalry would handle his thirster/destroy a flank. Lastly, the Eagles and Archers would need to provide sacrifical units to keep fiends and flamers at bay. Also, at least one Eagle would be needed to block off a Siren Song.

Image

Apologies, I forgot his Flamers. They're represented by the big flame-ball

He got the first turn.

:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

His Thirster charges my Archers, who flee. I roll very high and they end up next to the edge. Daemonettes move up a bit, in range to get some nasty songs off. The rightmost unit takes care to end up out of Swordmaster charge arc. Magic is 7v7 and I prevent everything. Shooting sees his flamers kill 4 Archers. Panic is passed.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Siren Songs go off! Lions charge but don't make it. To make matters worse, I can't roll above a 3, meaning they haven't moved far enough for my cavalry to properly get past them. I hence need to reform. The Spears go in, easily making their roll.

I then try and march my Swordmasters to get engaged as soon as possible. They fail. I then try and march my Archers to give Swords cover from flamers. They also fail. I then try and reform Dragon Princes to go in the gap between the Lions and my Eagle. They ALSO fail. My army is more or less standing still relative to his moves. 1 Eagle moves to block a Thirster sniping my Archmage, the other blocks the lone Fiend. The Archers rally.

Magic is 7v3. I start off with a 2D6 Throne which he lets through. I then consider the following 3 options:
1. 2D6 Flesh -> 3D6 Wyssan's
2. 5D6 Flesh
3. 5D6 Dwellers
I figured with options 2 and 3, a scroll would come out. With option 1, I'm pretty sure he'd scroll the flesh on a high roll and dispel it on a low roll. Wyssan's on 3D6 is relatively risky and it might not have drawn the scroll out - something I considered very important.

I went for option 3. I should've gone for 2 since it would've had a way bigger impact. Regardless, I didn't catch 2 6's and so it was scrolled.

Combat - BSB attacks Herald: 2 hits, snake eyes for wounds. I then manage 2 wounds on the Herald with normal spears but he saves one. He also kills Cael and I lose combat but hold due to steadfast re-rollable.

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:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

Bloodthirster charges Saerith + DP and make it (he needed 9+ on Swiftstride). 2nd Horde charges my Spears in the flank. Fiend charges Eagle. The other Fiends charge my Archers, who flee to get them out of where I want them. This is sort of unfortunate as I forget center-to-center and they end up with a good rear charge on my DP come his next turn.

Magic: 9v6 (I miss crystal...). Result: -1S on Spears by Enfeebling.

Shooting: his Flamers kill 6 Swordmasters.

Combat: I again fail to kill his Herald as Naenor fails to wound (again). The Spears lose badly due to ASF + second charge and I break. They run a long way and escape. One unit pursues while the other reforms to face my Lions (he also clipped the Eagle with the charge, which he promptly killed).

Saerith uses Loec and puts 3W on the Thirster but dies in return. He wins combat by 1 (charge - flank - 3 wounds vs 3 wounds, banner). I hold, but fail to reform. The last Eagle breaks and flees, his Fiend restraining.

Image

The rest of the game was like this: Spears failed to reform and fled off. The Swords got a charge on the Daemonettes and killed droves (I got Flesh to Stone through on them), despite being only 8 remaining. Dwellers got off on his last Daemonettes but it mattered not: the Lions couldn't destroy them fast enough. Dp fail to hurt his Thirster any more. The Fiends get in their rear and my Lions are combo-charge in the end.

:: Victory Points ::

He scored something like 3500 victory points in a 2500 point game (general, all banners, +800 for breaking me as it was Blood and Glory). The only unit I killed was a single Fiend.

:: Evaluation ::

As far as ranged damage is concerned, I actually do believe I have the upper hand because of Dwellers. One Dwellers getting through effectively means his super-horde should lose to any of mine, assuming I can get the Herald relatively fast. I mis-judged the situation and deployed too far ahead. This, combined with the fact that he got first turn, meant Siren Song dominated me. I also wanted to use Swordmasters to hold a flank. In hindsight I should've placed them in the woods right in front of the Lions. They don't care about Siren Song as much and it would've provided a harder centre.

Deployment-wise the terrain didn't favour my cavalry and the mission meant I couldn't use the clear flanks. I made one huge mistake though: there was no reason to have my mages in the units. As it turned out, this didn't matter at all.

The Daemon army is the opposite of ours: it has a solution to anything and cheap, flexible options at its disposal. A Loremaster at less than 200 points. Did I mention he's also flying? Most of the units are forgiving and versatile whereas ours fall together like a house of cards in the wind if not played properly.

Anyway, hit me with some feedback here. I'm sure you all have some thoughts with regards to how I could've played better.

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Last edited by Curu Olannon on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Harsh, but that's Daemons. Do you guys play open list, or closed list? If it's open list and you know about the Siren Songs, then you should be able to prevent them having such a crippling effect.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Your list - like it, The DP unit not 100% sure about based on things i have tried in the past but do like it.

Mage set up, Scroll or crystal required for extra defence. One of them i believe should be included in most list for that extra protection. What to take out, not sure?

His list, now i also play daemons(my random fun list) and looking at his list its fairly nasty but could have nastier(in my humble opinion).

Think what cost you big was deploying to far forward. Sirens is a killer, but limited to a legal charge range within 20inches. So if you had made sure that who ever went first you were out of range on his first turn i think the battle would have been completly differnet as could have set up to get your double charges off, or certainly made it harder for sirens to hurt you so much. Barring that not sure what else you could have done differently except with a bit of positioning to block the forced charges with your eagle.

On a different note, dislike from a fluff point of view his list. Blood thirster!!. Keeper would have been more approriate and i think slightly nastier. But that is just me!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Tough break Daemons can just run over the top of you sometimes when the luck goes south or you make a mistake. I hate those massive units though sometimes it feels like there isn't much you can do.

Quote:
A Loremaster at less than 200 points


True but at only L2 you have a big advantage when it comes to dispelling and casting which you can really take advantage of.

Quote:
Magic is 7v3. I start off with a 2D6 Throne which he lets through. I then consider the following 3 options:
1. 2D6 Flesh -> 3D6 Wyssan's
2. 5D6 Flesh
3. 5D6 Dwellers
I figured with options 2 and 3, a scroll would come out. With option 1, I'm pretty sure he'd scroll the flesh on a high roll and dispel it on a low roll. Wyssan's on 3D6 is relatively risky and it might not have drawn the scroll out - something I considered very important.


If it was key to get off a spell on the spears (which I would have said it was), why use throne? Flesh to Stone benefits from very little from Throne against dameonettes. You have a 7v3 dice advantage and a plus 2 casting level advantage you could have thrown 3 dice at Flesh to Stone (with the extra casting level meaning your more likely to get it off than not) and then 4 Dice on wildform so you have the dice advantage. It's not always going to work but it is in your favour that even with a scroll you get one off. The miscast protection isn't that important for the Archmage on 3 dice not compared to the value of getting one of those spells off. By using Throne you potentially cost yourself in an important magic phase by removing the very favourable dice advantage you had IMO.

I'm really confused by your deployment to be honest. The Dragon Princes behind the White Lions doesn't really make any sense to me nor does the angling of the Swordmasters. I would have used one of the Archer units as a bunker for the Mages so you could keep them protected behind your combat units that will be in combat almost immediately (but could still advance for T1 dwellers if you got the first turn). There seems to be plenty of room to have all four combat units deployed across the front of your deployment zone. The Dragon Princes could have gone relatively wide if they have been placed where the archer unit on the hill was if using the flanks was important to you. Alternatively you could have faced your left flank with them and swung round the building turn 1 and been on that flank if you wanted to be on the same flank as the Bloodthirster.

Anyway I'm sure you learnt a lot from this game which is the point of practice games for tournaments.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:30 am 
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@Brewmaster - I'm rather happy with Wyssan's as the list stands now. As for Light, if I go for that lore I want to go all-out: taking it with both mages and loading up on magical defense (corin + crystal). I am considering it though

@Nicene - I'll keep your suggestions in mind if I return to that style of a list!

@Stormie - We always play closed lists but it doesn't take an IQ of 192 to guess that his Heralds are sporting Siren Song. Suggestions as to how to counter this, deployment-wise, are very welcome! The thought was to run from the left one with my Lions, paving the way for DP to engage and help out, leaving them out of the Thirster's line of sight. I forgot that my Mage would've been useless while running though.

@akielzather - What would you do different for the Prince's bus? My Mage already has Crystal. As for his list being nastier, it's hard in my opinion. Regardless of what you swap, yuo lose something. With that being said, I'm no expert on Daemons. I know for a fact that this was hard enough for me... How would you have counter-acted Siren Song in this particular case?

@alenui - I'd take a L2 Loremaster of Shadow any day over a level 4 with just 4 spells. Almost all of the useful spells from Shadow require 4D6 or more, in which case the difference between a level 2 and a level 4 is marginal. Besides, they can still take Lord casters -.- You're totally right about that magic phase - I guess I started off with Throne out of pure habit! Can't believe I didn't consider that option... Again - input with regards to deployment very welcome! With way more non-commiting drops than him, I could easily choose most of the matchups etc.

It's going to be interesting on Saturday, given all the hard matchups I've had recently!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:24 am 
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Ahh yes, daemons are rough. Wonder why I finished poorly in my tourney when I faced 2 daemon lists in a row?

Anyway, about what you could have done differently:

First thing to note is he is way faster than you are. Also to note, he only has 2 non-committal drops, to your 2 (4 if you count small units of archers, which against daemons, you count them :D). I think you deployed too "straight on" against an opponent like this. Granted, you were limited by the scenario, BUT you could have shifted your deployment a bit to one side. Most armies (elves in particular) simply cannot beat daemons if they deploy straight across. A straight on alignment forces you to go one on one, or forces you to try to take out his flank quickly to get around his main infantry line. Neither of those outcomes work out for our fragile elves.

So what could you have done differently?

Well, what I discovered in my tourney is simple: when facing an army that is significantly faster than you, try refused flank. I know you couldn't deploy all on one side because of blood and glory, but you still could have shifted to one side a bit more. The goal here is to get his units tripping over themselves, and to use his speed against him.

In the above battle, I imagine his deployment order was:

-Furies
-Solo Fiend
-Fiends unit
-Flamers
-Daemonette units
-Characters.

To counter you could have gone:
-Eagles
-Archer unit
-DPs on same side as flamers (but back so they can't be siren songed by daemonette unit).
-2nd Archer Unit...

NOW he dropped both daemonette blocks, so deploy your infantry to the far side, directly across from his fast and pricey unit (big fiends). He probably would have put his daemonette blocks towards center since in the above deployment order, you didn't show your hand until both units were out. Deploying as far towards the flank as you can with your infantry now means he either has to slow down the advance of his fiends while he tries to redress ranks of his infantry line (which gives you more turns to get rid of his scrolls and more time to dweller one or more of his units), OR he pushes forward and risks his fiend block being overwhelmed by your lions and spears while his infantry trips over themselves. In the latter case, a few quick combo charges and good eagle placement would allow you to get a few of your powerful units into his units at once, ending the combat in one or two phases while he is powerless to stop you (well bloodthirster could help potentially).

Granted, I don't know how deployment would work out in this case, but if you hide it well to get that type of deployment advantage, it gives him quite a bit to think about turn 1 and 2, which is half the battle against daemons (those daemon players are far too accustomed to point and click... lets be honest).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:59 am 
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I don't have the rule book on me but as I recall the person with first turn can never declare a charge. So the thirster couldn't have charged. It may just be fast cav and scouts I'm thinking of but I thought it was all units... I'll look into this later as its helpful either way to know.

Against Siren Song one of the best things you can do is deploy backwards for the first turn and then swift reform everything and move to where you want to prepare better for the demons second turn. Another way to get around this is have cheap expendable things in front of your combat blocks. Bolt Throwers, horse chariots, eagles, 10 man archer units. If you clip your own unit on the charge then you can't legally charge him thus it doesn't work. If your eagle or 10 man unit dies yes it sucks but its better than a 600 point unit getting hit and then flanked and crumbling to pieces. Also reavers are GREAT for this as with their reform on the fly rule they can turn sideways and in a rank of 1 and cover a couple of units without worrying about having to charge, No LoS. This can help to waste his songs or make him hold them until you would want to charge anyways.

Bolt thrower are great because they can't charge so he has to kill it and over run into your block. Kind of sucks for cav as you'll loose your spear/lance bonus but then your generally fighting frontally on your terms instead of being in a chaos sandwich.

I agree that was a pretty solid list and he played pretty well. (also demons are forgiving with their wicked good movement) I do think you made some pretty poor deployment decisions but a song demon list you kind of have to know what your doing. Play against song enough and you'll know all the little BS tricks you have to pull to keep them out of your expensive blocks.

Love reading your reports though so keep them coming.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:02 am 
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Hi Curu!

I have two questions:

1. What was the reason to position White Lions in front of Dragon Prince?

2. Did you expose DP flank to Bloodthirster's charge on purpose?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:22 am 
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Quote:
I'd take a L2 Loremaster of Shadow any day over a level 4 with just 4 spells.


It's certainly another strength with Daemons being able to get such a good mage so cheaply leaving lots of points available elsewhere. My point is it does give a you some tactical advantages having +3 to dispel/+2 to Cast over him. As I demonstrated with your key magic phase. Your right that when more dice are thrown the Casting levels count for less there isn't much you can do regarding his spell casting (but your plus 3 is still significant). but with your own casting there are opportunities to maximise your benefit.

Quote:
Again - input with regards to deployment very welcome! With way more non-commiting drops than him, I could easily choose most of the matchups etc.


If you don't want to get Siren Song first turn then on option is to deploy further back if your behind the 9 inch line normally () or 6 inch line for Blood and Glory (27 +17 = 42) this keeps your infantry out of charge range turn 1. I'm not always a massive fan of this as it can leave your opponent a lot of room for manoeuvre. What I would look to do is to use the Eagles (facing backwards possibly it depends if you need to charge them out of the way to make your own charges, if forward facing you can at least draw out one Siren Song on an Eagle) each Eagle can block off two of your units assuming they are deploying an inch apart. So your two Eagles can block off your 4 combat units. With Flamers etc this won't work for long so you need to work out how to get into favourable combats as quickly as possible. In terms of match ups you need to use magic as much as possible to your advantage to let your infantry have a decent chance of grinding down the Daemonettes. So it's about getting Dwellers or Flesh to stone off regularly. I would mainly keep my mages in the archers behind the combat units to keep them safe (they are bunkers first and archers second IMO). The Cav you want to get into the big Fiend unit as they should go through it pretty quickly and then it can swing round.

The problem with this match up is if he plays the Thirster even half decently you don't have a way of dealing with it in your list so that should give him the win unless you get lucky with magic to be able to take off his Daemonettes quickly or you could just try Dwellers and hope you roll a 6 [-o< . That's a problem with the list it has fairly little threat against big nasties there isn't much you can do in game if he then uses the big nasties well.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:39 am 
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Note from the Daemon player: He asked for a nasty list, and got it :twisted:
I believe this is one of ther nastier all-round DoC lists. To make it more rounded I should probably swap one Daemonettes w/herald for a bloodletter horde with firestorm, BSB, Juggernaut herald.

@Olannon

I think you made two crucial mistakes. Failing all your ld tests in your first turn, while you still had some options left, didn't help.

Deploying too far forward. My army have insane speed (12"+) and it was a far chance I would get first turn and advance. Siren song range is 12" march + 17" max possible charge range on your units = 29". Although I would not have used it before I was in shorter range to force either a successfull charge, or a flee off the table. Also, Had you got off two dwellers, your infantry would have beaten my infantry. More space would also have let you use eagles successfully.

As it happened, I got two free and easy charges with my bloodthirster for no gain to you, and I was in range to position my daemonettes in a way that gave me max use out of Siren song. Also, your eagles died for no gain, even though they could really have messed up my plan, or at least force me to dedicate forces to destroy them.

The other mistake, off course, was agreeing to face daemons..
I believe you are a somewhat better player than me, so army books definetively played a part.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:48 am 
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@jwg20 - yes, I've always claimed Daemons are among our worst matchups. Most people don't seem to agree though, I wonder why. As for Refused Flank, I could've refused the other one (I kinda weighted my western flank). This might have been better, despite all the terrain on the eastern flank. I hate Blood and Glory denying me the edges of the board!

As for deploying infantry vs Fiends - is this really a good idea? They have 21 wounds, 28 attacks and 7 stomps. Because of I6 I don't get re-rolls, meaning they'll decimate any infantry unit I can send their way. I may have been a little too fearful with regards to them, which affected which flank I would refuse. Also - which unit would you use as your western-most unit, given a refused flank in which I refuse the west flank? I imagine the Spears need to go here, otherwise the thirster will have a field day.

@Purplesounds - I read the rulebook and couldn't find anything about this. If you do, please reference us the section/pages :) I probably should have deployed further back, yes. Even with the normal 24" apart, I would've been in a lot of trouble if he marched like 10" and used Siren Song to drag me out to an unlikely 14-15" charge. My intention was to get an Eagle in front of my unit but I was obviously too late for this. Agreed that, again, my deployment was my worst mistake.

@Swordmaster of Hoeth - I didn't want Siren Song to pull my Princes out to the open no-where. There was no good place to put them due to terrain and I just didn't have enough space to put them between the Lions and the house. As has been already pointed out, I probably should've deployed them on the other flank, refusing the West. As for the Bloodthirster charge - this was due to my failed free reform. You have to reform them first, then roll the test. Because of this, they were left with an impossible role. Had I made the roll, he would not have had the opportunity of charging me.

@alenui - naturally I have an advantage, since he only had a level 2. Could you imagine how much more powerful our magic could be if we could take Loremaster on a level 2 though? Point about deploying further back taken. I agree that the Thirster is causing me a lot of pain. The list has a weakness against these kinds of threats. Will need to consider this more closely, thanks for pointing it out!

@rusty - first of all, thanks for the game! I indeed did ask for a nasty list, and I got one! Deployment-advice taken. As for player skill, I think you're being too modest: in all our encounters I do not believe I've played overall better than you do. We've had quite a few now as well ;)

So, learning points:
1 - deployment (again!)
2 - refuse the right flank, don't be overly afraid of terrain or semi-hard units (in this case: fiends)
3 - work out how to counter things like flying monsters

Thanks for the feedback y'all!

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:57 am 
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Scouts or units that move with vanguard can never declare a charge first turn if they go first.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Correction: 6 Fiends have 18 wounds, initiative 4 , 21 attacks to the front, 3 stomps and armour piercing. I think your cavarly could take them down hard, although at a cost. Deploying cavalry opposite flamers would also threaten flamers, you could simply run them over, or at least use DP as cover for other units. Off course, you would have to sacrifice something to get the charge on fiends, and in that case I would move the fiends elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:23 pm 
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That is about what happened the first time I played Daemons in 8th - the game was effectively over turn 2.
You've got to be willing to do the table edge deployment with most of your army, and deploy front line things facing backward so you won't charge turn 1. The furies and lone fiend are going to be a problem, but you have to hope your archers can take out one of them. Hopefully the Bloodthirster takes some time to get through the Dragon Princes. This is a case where the Giant Blade probably hurt you - the tank Prince would hopefully tie up the beast longer, although he needs to ward save a killing blow.

With Lore of Life, instead of Shadow, you really have no answer for a Bloodthirster. And not much answer for other powerful monsters, except trusting your Prince can kill them before they kill the Prince. Certainly that works on some of them, thanks to the Talisman of Loec, but killing blow gives DE and TK reasonable odds of taking down your Prince with a monster.

The Daemon Herald is so awesome because he produces a good offensive magic phase with a scroll for just 150 points. (this one had flight instead of a scroll, with the scroll on the bloodthirster). We spend 400 points for a good offensive magic phase (Archmage plus BoS), and while we certainly get more with those 400 points, do we really get 250 points more?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:31 pm 
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rusty wrote:
Correction: 6 Fiends have 18 wounds, initiative 4 , 21 attacks to the front, 3 stomps and armour piercing.
Correct except they have initiative 6. The DPs can take the fiends, but it will effectively wipe them out. You can kill 2+ Fiends on the charge, and they kill 2+ DPs. After the charge the Prince does most of the damage, and the Fiends slowly wipe out the DPs. You won't get through them quickly, if at all.

Just as importantly, the odds of getting the charge on the Fiends is not great. Move 10+2d6 vs 8+swiftstride is about a push. Without the lances to kill off an extra model plus, the DPs are likely to be wiped out.

Fighting Fiends with DPs means the Flamers can run around and gun down whatever they want, or the Bloodthirster can crush infantry with bonus Thunderstomps.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:42 pm 
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7x3 = 21. Although only 6 Fiends were in a unit, I'd still have to face a potential 7 of them. As for a tank Prince, I believe this wouldn't work any better - he still got loads of wounds through. Without a magical weapon, I'll get a 2+/2+/4++ at best. This means I can still lose wounds easily besides killing blow, and even getting the 4+ from the killing blow is no sure thing.

As has been pointed out, Fiends can also just move to wherever they want with their insane mobility.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:46 pm 
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For a swift reform you test first then Reform. Just checked in the rulebook not sure where any confusion comes from it makes the order clear. Was there an FAQ that changed anything?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:01 pm 
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You've got to work for the charge on the fiends it's true but if he is trying to rush you you'd have a decent chance. On the charge the Dragon Princes and Lord should land 9 wounds for the loss of 2 maybe 3 Dragon Princes on average. There should hardly be any fiends left after the first round. So next turn you should finish them off get the charge and you should be fine. Even without the charge I recon you should grind them out but you will lose quite a few knights in the process.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Oh ok, well that changes a few things... We didn't check it thoroughly, will definitely remember next time! You are forced to do a reform though, right?

As for Fiends - I suppose they should on average be gone in 2 turns, IF I get the charge. Big if, considering he's M10. Regardless, refusing that flank probably would've been better!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:02 pm 
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alenui wrote:
On the charge the Dragon Princes and Lord should land 9 wounds
My math doesn't produce that. 4 front rank DPs plus 5 rear-rank DPs is 13 attacks, 11.5 hits, 7.7 wounds, 5.1 unsaved. Lord is 3.5 hits, 2.9 wounds, 1.9 unsaved. Total damage 7 wounds, not 9.
With 4 attacks each, Fiends have 15 attacks back. 7.5 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 dead DPs. You do win by a good margin, so you might get more damage from combat resolution, but you should never assume that against Daemons.
Second round your DP damage is down to about 2.2 wounds, and the Prince still does his 1.9, netting about 4. Fiends kill another 2 DPs. Unless you get an extra wound, for 2 models removed in round 2, leaving just 2 Fiends, you won't have enough DPs left to count as a rank by the end.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Fiend vs Dragon Prince + Lord - Rounding to nearest 10th

Round 1 - (A/H/W/Unsaved)
Prince - 4/3.6/3/2
DP's - 13/11.6/7.7/5.1
Fiends - 15/7.5/5/2.5
Horses - 5/2.5/.8/.6

Elves - 7.7
Fiends - 2.5
Charge, banner - -7 test for fiends.

Round 2 - 7 DP's, 4 fiends
Prince - 4/3.6/3/2 (3rd fiend dies)
DP's - 11/9.8/3.3/2.2 (11.9 wounds total by elves, assuming successful daemon test, 4th fiend dies)
Fiends - 8/4/2.7/1.3
Horses - 5/2.5/.8/.6

Elves 4.8
Fiends - 1.3
Banner, rank - -5 test for fiends

Total non leadership wounds caused:
Elves - 12.5 (5 dp's and lord left)
Fiends - 3.8 (2 fiends left)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:00 pm 
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alenui wrote:
For a swift reform you test first then Reform. Just checked in the rulebook not sure where any confusion comes from it makes the order clear. Was there an FAQ that changed anything?


I'll have to check my rulebook and FAQs tonight. If there's any mistake here the fault's mine.

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