Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:50 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:37 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@ dabber - thanks for the input, a couple of really good points. Let me address them one by one:

Deployment wasn't as far forward as the diagram seemed to indicate. From now I'll start including pictures as well to give you all a better view. With that being said, I could've gone further back. As for picking the other side, I believe the rocks would've split my forces too much. Since we played blood and glory I couldn't take the corners, thus a refused flank would be nigh on impossible.

The Eagle was physically blocking his unit from moving, due to the 1" rule etc. Since he charged his fly-vampire out of it, the resulting width was reduced by just enough for him to wheel around the bird, approaching my lines. I couldn't place it any better on the corner due to the wolves.

As for 6-dicing Vaul's - I don't really see much benefit to this. With a potential 4v6 left (should he scroll Vaul's - which most players would) I can still get a spell or two through (2-dicing curse, 1-dicing ring, 1-dicing miasma/drain magic). Why risk the miscast etc? Under normal circumstances, I would've gotten another magic phase without a scroll - allowing me to either withering/curse combo him or vaul's the banner.

@ Iniesta

Not replacing the character could've drastically changed the game. Since I didn't consider this either I suppose it's not anyone's fault. I guess this makes my point vs dabber's comment kind of moot. As for free reform etc giving you what you needed - maybe, but you wouldn't have been in Vanhels range of my Archers.

@ Sirgilly

The problem with the Prince vs Vampire Counts is that he can just move on his side and magic missile him to death. This actually depends a little on how you interpret the Armour of Stars vs shooting (e.g. does the first hit teleport him before the rest hit?). Vampire Counts can just Vanhels past him after that again, a seriously annoying opportunity. With that being said, I should've tried using him more like this of course. As for your point about Bats and Wolves - you're totally right: I should've marched my Eagle in front of the full-wolves, targeting Bats with my Archers. This would've given me one more turn of shooting with one of the RBT and probably would've allowed my Prince to roadblock his bus, effectively walling them in place. No need to excuse yourself for being new by the way, your logic and advice is sound here :)

@ Tethlis

As Furion has demonstrated, the Archers will time and again end up in melee. At this point, ASF pays back. The point is that our Spearelves are horribly overcosted. You either live with that, or you try another approach. For just 2 points more per model, you get a 30" ranged attack, too, while having the same statline. What's so unique for our Archers is their ability to shrug off anything short of a dedicated combat unit. Between this and the White Lions the army actually has quite a bit of meleepotential.

Point taken about the Prince. Using the Eagle to block his Wolves would've allowed me to do this better. With the bus being so far away (I believe it was 20") it's too easy for him to Gaze me and then Vanhels.

As for Lions flanking - the idea was to kill both his flanks first, then envelope around the bus. Since they have to overrun I thought I could delay a major encounter with them until the 4th turn or so. I never intended to pinch together fast.

@ Iniesta 2

Hordes - miasma, withering, curse, flames. Archers can fight in melee and win vs poor units (see my batrep vs Skaven for a wonderful example here). Vs Dwarfs and Empire, I simply don't know. Depending on the list, I must first of all decide whether I have to push or if I can stay back. If I can stay back, I think it's a very favourable matchup. Otherwise, I'd try and take out a machine or two with Archers and hope magic can help me win combats. If it's a disastrous matchup, I can go hide and hope for a draw ;) As for DE and Daemons, I have yet to try this out properly. Point taken about more magical defense. As for WoC - I have yet to experience any problems with these whatsoever.

@ Tethlis 2

The Eagle couldn't charge the Wolves due to LoS rules (we play a number-based system). Parking it right in front would've worked out wonderfully though. As for loading up on a flank - how do you do this in this setting? With Blood and Glory + terrain mocking me, both flanks on both sides, there isn't really much of a corner to go hide in.

So thanks for some wonderful feedback y'all! I noticed most of you commented on issues relating to either deployment or the list. As for deployment, I have a lot to learn of how a defensive army plays. Please come up with suggestions! For example, if you feel I should play more of a refused flank, I'd love ideas as to how exactly you would've accomplished this. I'll start providing proper photos of at least the deployment so you get a better feel of the battlefield. I believe that at the moment, this is where I can improve the most.

As for the list - I haven't nearly given up on this yet. It's a totally new playing style and I find it way harder than I thought it would be. I guess the required finesse is a few notches up from what you'd expect from the likes of a Dwarf gunline for example. Regardless, if you have any concrete ideas of how to change the list for the better, please post them!

A huge blunder in this game was not putting the Eagle right in front of his Wolves, as many of you have pointed out. This would've let me decimate his Ghouls way more, which might've allowed me to collapse both of his flanks. Had I also used Talisman of Loec to get his BSB(with a little luck) and positioned my RBT's better, I probably would've won (+800 VP for breaking him if the BSB dies). Consider this: one more turn of shooting the ghouls would've allowed my Lions to break them instantly (barring poor dice rolls) and the big Archers + BSB + other Lions could've broken his other ghouls (by statistics they would've been down to ~35-40 before combat - something 40 elves can easily deal with considering they were 10 wide.

I do understand the appeal of the White Lion horde now better than I did before I played this game. This list benefits greatly from creating holes in the enemy line, creating an opportunity for a very strong unit to cause havoc wherever I want to. For this task, the Horde Lions are a really strong unit. It might also make deployment easier, as it's one big compact unit instead of 2 dispersed ones.

So - combining the Lions, getting another Eagle. Definitely sounds tempting! It'll even leave me points to spare...

Again, thanks for all the feedback so far - keep it coming! Hopefully my next game's on Sunday, provided I can get an opponent. I'd really like to face Dark Elves to see how this list does against them.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:16 am 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
@ dabber - thanks for the input, a couple of really good points. Let me address them one by one:
Deployment wasn't as far forward as the diagram seemed to indicate.
That point kept hitting me thinking about this battle. You are really running a gunline now, and that means table edge deployment. Particularly with the Prince and Reaver Bow BSB in the list, but also with High Magic, combat is something your army HATES. Withering is nice, but White Lions don't need it, and archers aren't going to kill enough even with lower enemy toughness.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As for 6-dicing Vaul's - I don't really see much benefit to this.
Because removing the Drakenhoff doubles the damage you can do to that unit.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Under normal circumstances, I would've gotten another magic phase without a scroll
Except the speed of his army meant you couldn't play for the long term. You needed immediate impact. Additionally, in his position, I probably would have dice dispelled your Vaul's casting. With your shooting split by the hill, you weren't capable of getting that many hits on ghouls, even if most hits killed because of withering.



I suggest playing another game or two with both White Lion units instead of a single horde. By my count of your last list, you have 650 points in core, not 625. So you can lose a few archers, and a White Lion or two, to get another Eagle. Alternatively, is the Archmage as fully equiped as I think? Dropping Ring of Fury for an Eagle seems appropriate. To play defensively, I think you really need a second diverter, if not a third and fourth.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 7:46 am
Posts: 14
Regarding the range, im pretty sure i would be in range of your archers with a reform and going forward, as i remeber i could have stopped about two inches from your archers if i set full speed, even with the wheels. I did on purpose hold it back to be able to charge both that archerunit and the 1 beside it next turn if i didn`t get van hels through that round.
I`m not sure if Curu has told. But our comming tournament has 4 games, each at one of the the main scenarios, except battle for the pass and watchtower. Blood and glory scanario is not autowin if breaking the opponent, but 900p extra for breaking. The scenario that might put things in reserve doesn`t, so no delaying of opponent through that for our tournament. So comments on the armylist of his should take that into consideration :-) And its 10 points for victory, 5 for draw. And its sizebased where warmashines is set at 1, same as infantry.
How well would this list fare if it has to set up first compared to the previous list he has used? We also normally have a lot of terrain on our tourneys, that can hurt his list.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
Imo the VC cav bus + the 2 blocks of ghouls with ghoulkin is the single strongest list in warhammer. There are a few variations for example around here its played more or less the same except instead of the necro theres a vamp on foot with black arts and helm of commandment.

Its tough for any army, simply because the list is so strong all the opponent has to do is run forward and charge you. Combat lists won't beat it and the only stuff that has a chance is something like gateway or book of hoeth with metal or a really lucky dwarf shooty list. The ghouls are no pushovers and the bus itself is very fast, hits hard and highly mobile with recastable vanhels.

I cannot wait for the new year and the new VC book so this trash can be prevented. It manifests everything wrong with warhammer. As for beating it my only suggestion is hope you avoid it in a tournament, and then just play for a draw or a small loss if you do by splitting your army in half and making the bus choose which corner it attacks.

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:45 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@dabber - point taken about table edge deployment. As for 6-dicing Vaul's - he's just going to scroll it. Most people will scroll a 3 or 4 dice result as well. If I get the IF (once every fourth cast) then it can swing both ways. I'll revisit this particular issue later on. I double-checked my core and ended up @ 625. Are you sure it's 650? I might have gotten the numbers wrong, I'll re-calculate to make sure. I agree about needing another Eagle.

@Iniesta - you seem to be correct about the range (I checked the picture on the cellphone). As for the tournament being terrain-heavy etc, you've really got a point.

@Lord Anathir - I disagree entirely. If the VC cav bus was that overall powerful, it would appear way more often. There are plenty of setups it has a hard time dealing with, e.g. the standard DE lvl 4 shadow lvl 1 metal mage setup. Also the characters are vulnerable to killing blow which there are plenty of. A good cavalry bus, especially one like this with protection and re-supplying models in close combat, can really wreck a defensive army. Since you play Dwarfs, I can understand your frustration, however I believe there are LOADS of setups way worse than this. It's a one-hit-wonder which is Frenzy, meaning it's easily mislead etc.

I just got home from rusty's place. We had agreed to gather up and paint some basic colours on our armies to make them somewhat more presentable before the upcoming tourney. After a couple of hours we tired of painting and since he has a wonderful gaming room we decided to play a practice game instead. I took the same list I used last time - he took roughly the same list he's had before (40 archers, 2x6 Treekin, 2 Treemen, 2 Eagles, BSB + Archmage, 8 Dryads).

I figured this time I'd like to hear your thoughts on the deployment before I posted the battle report. The result was as follows:

Image

NOTES: my RBT's were both right behind my Eastern archers, to their right (so they had clear LoS to his entire advance range). My Prince and BSB are both in the big Archer unit, the Archmage is in the hill White Lions unit, the Shadow mage is with the other White Lions. His BSB is the one with the big, green banner. His Archmage is the one with the wings, who ended up going in the same unit as the BSB. His Eastern Treeman was an Ancient with +1 dispel dice thingy.

What do you all think of this? Who got the advantage here? He won the roll-off for choosing table edge by the way.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:14 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
I double-checked my core and ended up @ 625. Are you sure it's 650? I might have gotten the numbers wrong, I'll re-calculate to make sure.
I'm really not sure what exact list you ran. I thought I was doing correct math on the most recent complete post, but I could have looked at the wrong list or added wrong.


On the deployment picture ...

It looks like your big archers have limited LOS to their left, because of the hill. Could you not have shifted everything right a couple inches?
It seems wrong to deploy both magic bows in the big archer unit, as then they must all shoot the same target.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
I think I had a slight advantage, in that if you get first turn all my soft targets would be in hard or soft cover. Also, my advance were covered by terrain. I was wondering why you didn't spread your army out more to maximize shooting, but assumed you did it to forestall any refused flanks or leaving any archers without support from WL.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:53 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
While I await more input with regards to deployment, I'd like to discuss an issue I only just yesterday realized.

:: The Importance of Winning Combats Decisively ::

As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, this list hates being in close combat. Naturally, the Lions are geared for it, but overall that's not where my list wants to be. If you take a look at the current list, you'll notice both units dedicated to close combat are big enough to hold out for a turn or two, while not being big enough to actually kill things, at least not fast enough.

Consider the recent game I had against VC. He had ~50 Ghouls in horde formation. After some shooting they were reduced to a little over 40. What would 18 Lions do here? Well, they'd get 12 attacks, probably killing like 10. In return, 40 attacks... With 21, it looks a little better, however it's no-where near acceptable. What about a Horde of my own, of 30 Lions? Well, they'd hit on 27 attacks, wounding on ~23. That will seriously reduce the attacks back and definitely crumble them (barring very bad dice rolls).

The same applies for monstrous infantry units etc. Ogre Deathstars wouldn't care about smallish units of Lions, nor would Trolls or Hellpits. A Horde on the other hand presents a much bigger problem.

My best case scenario in these situations is holding the unit up for a turn or two. As pointed out earlier, this is not favourable.

The problem with winning combats is three-fold:
- Damage output
- Frontage
- Break tests

My current damage output is sub-optimal. Lions by default aren't the best choice here (Swordmasters are). How can this be increased? By making a single unit into a horde, the damage output per frontage is effectively increased 50%. At this point, their damage output per frontage is comparable to that of Swordmasters (who only have 33% more attacks at -1S in Horde).

Frontage is another problem: if your frontage is too big, you can't get enough attacks in. This is a problem I frequently see Chaos players struggle with when they face our small 20mm bases. Currently, I have a combat frontage of 13x20mm. The total output is 26 attacks.

Break tests: I need units to break where they are so that I can utilize my magic and shooting to its fullest potential. Against steadfast units, this isn't the same (obviously). In this case, I just need to grind them down as fast as possible.

Now you can probably see where this is going. Long story short - I can see the appeal of a big Horde of White Lions. It's not about the 'big blunt hammer' - it's about doing something crucial for this army: keeping combats short and decisive.

I'll get the battle report up either today or tomorrow. In the meantime, please continue discussing the deployment :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
Curu Olannon wrote:
@Lord Anathir - I disagree entirely. If the VC cav bus was that overall powerful, it would appear way more often. There are plenty of setups it has a hard time dealing with, e.g. the standard DE lvl 4 shadow lvl 1 metal mage setup. Also the characters are vulnerable to killing blow which there are plenty of. A good cavalry bus, especially one like this with protection and re-supplying models in close combat, can really wreck a defensive army. Since you play Dwarfs, I can understand your frustration, however I believe there are LOADS of setups way worse than this. It's a one-hit-wonder which is Frenzy, meaning it's easily mislead etc.


Except the real top versions don't use blood knights but black knights for the extra wounds, and also the KB immunity item on his lord. Black knights hit had enough with banner of barrows and helm of commandment from the foot vamp, especially when theres 15 of them. That said I think dwarfs are one of the best to deal with it with the flaming shooting and then double organ guns and anvil to slow it. As for its popularity, I always see it nowadays at tournaments.

But hey at least its going to be changed soon hopefully.

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 7:46 am
Posts: 14
I have tried a couple of times fielding a shooty TK list, backed with some ambushing units. Havent tried it enough times to get the 100% clear picture, but a wery spread out 10x archers + a more substantial bunker then might work backed with the usuall casket and 2 screaming katapults, as the burried units go up behind enemy line force the enemy to react and just not hump forward to them shooters and archers.
As said earlier its important to slow the enemy down when fielding this kind of shooty list. and im not sure if WL should be placed directly in front of your archers and that your army should be so tight together. Tight together= the enemy doesnt have to choose where to go, and when it gets there it can pretty easily kill all your units. I think this kind of list need to accept losses and minimize the troops lost for each engagement from the enemy= more times shooting and closer to the 100p+ victory you should aim for next weekend. This shooty list cant reliably table opponents and might have to play accordingly.
1: I would use the whole deploymentsone when fielding a shooty list, then try to break 1 side of his and winning by him not being able to engage all your units at once = more time shooting. As it is now you cant take advantage of taking down 1. side as your surrounded and nowhere to go in start. And maybe placing both WL in middle. Shooting entirely mostly on middle from the flank you sacrifice, hold in middle with WL and shoot the hell out of the opposite flank.
or 2: scramble in a corner IF i met an army thet need the space to manuwer. Rustys list looks like it filled most of his deploymentzone.
What if it were to scramble together in just 1 corner (except bolters?) and marching up against you in several waves? If you placed archers in front of white lions and held them there til they had to flee, and then rallied behind your WL but not off the boardedge? And the eagle also helped you.. Not sure if last use of only 1 corner was the right thing and you also have to try to bait him to get something on opposite flank. A wery denied flank would force him to come in several waves behind 1 another or walking a long way. Casting signaturespell shadow on trekin or whatever marching first one might slow it enough to shoot away the rest if the slowed unit had units behind it "w8ing in line"


I`d agree with Rusty: WE advantage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu,

My first thoughts: Advantage wood Elves. As was mentioned before, most, if not all of his units have partial cover, so your first round of shooting is going to be relatively ineffective. My fear is that he's going to get the first opportunity to do some real damage versus your shooting, and shift this to an offensive game for you. Definitely not a situation you want to be in with this list!

One question I have for you is regarding the white lions. I notice you have them in front of your archer units, which I assume is for cover? The only problem I see is that placing the lions there makes it imperative that you move them first turn to open up line of sight for your archers, which is not always advantageous. What is your plan to address that? Will they be aggressive, or shift to the side?

Looking forward to the rest of the report!

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:24 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@dabber - list can be found in the first post of this thread. My big Archers do have limited vision due to hill. Shifting everything right would've left some units in awkward positions, but I could've focused more on the right side, stretching my army out a lot more.

@rusty - agreed about you having an advantage here with deployment. Everyone else seems to agree with you. Partly, this is because you have a lot of non-commital drops, partly it's because I'm not deploying properly to use my width and refuse a flank.

@Lord Anathir - the Black Knights have no-where near the damage output the Blood Knights do. If you get a good combo-combat against these things could work out well for you. I see your point about it being a hard unit and annoying to play against regardless. Let's see what the new book brings :)

@Iniesta - good points. Problem here was he had so many more drops than me, a refused flank probably wouldn't have worked. I could've stretched my units out a lot more though. You're also correct about winning a flank - looking through Furion's reports it's obvious that this is how he most commonly crushes a strong enemy. Getting a couple of more drops makes it easier for me to pull off a refused flank, too.

@Brewmaster_D - I shared your fear! That was the reasoning for placing Lions in front: with a lack of terrain I could only use my own units for cover. My initial plan for the Lions was to shift left-right as needed and stay defensive. They also acted as a bunker from which my mages could get in range, especially in case I got first turn (2x Fury on his flank Archers + withering on Treekin could make his life hard).

I completed the deployment in Battle Chronicler. As usual, it's not inch-per-inch perfect, but coupled with real pictures you get the idea.

Image

A thing I notice with this list is that analysis of the deployment alone really brings a lot of the issues with my current list into the light. Let me elaborate:
- Being squeezed tight is a problem
- Not getting refused flank is a problem
- Not utilizing my width is a problem

Being squeezed tight is mostly a reaction to an opponent having more drops. Basically, often times it's too easy for an opponent to wait with his strong units until I've commited my army. If I don't deploy tight then, I'm left with either giving up an expensive flank or stretching out and forcing my units to move in front of eachother to help out. Not getting a refused flank is simply because I don't have the drops to do so. Against Iniesta's VC for example, he can deploy 4 units (wolves x2, bats, small ghouls) before commiting his bus + horde. I simply can't match this without commiting. The last point is simply due to inexperience with this kind of list / bad deployment. In the match against rusty there's nothing wrong with simply moving large parts of my army further East.

I also spent a couple of hours analyzing Furion's reports yesterday. What he's usually able to do is to win a flank decisively. His game against Daemons (where he killed the Greater Daemon T1) is a good example: here his White Lions are a constant threat to the entire Daemon army. From their superior position he can basically just launch himself at the centre when he pleases unless the Daemon player adjusts. A mid-sized unit of Archers and the Swordmasters are able to neutralize the refused flank for long enough - allowing his central firepower to do what they do best.

Now I don't know how he got that massive deployment advantage in that particular game. The point is, with this deployment advantage life just gets a lot easier for this list!

Combined with what I wrote in my previous post with regards to winning combats, I've arrived at the following conclusions:

- I want more drops to better my deployment
- I want another Eagle
- I want a horde of White Lions as the only dedicated combat unit
- I want more damage output (I can really see the usefulness of a small unit of Swordmasters here)

Yesterday's game highlighted another couple of issues as well. Let me type up the report and we can all get to analyzing it ;) For now though, I'd like to see your thoughts on the above reasoning, and, preferably, how you'd adapt the army to the wanted changes.

Regards,
~Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 34
Hi Curu,

Really interesting post on winning combats decisively, I couldn't agree more, the strength of the list lies in remaining unengaged with the enemy, controlling their movement, blasting them where it hurts and if required smashing an approaching threat as quickly as possible in close quarters - perhaps not a hammer, but certainly a surgical strike.

The white lions horde is brilliant, but it does make you vulnerable to armies with multiple drops who can charge block you with an eagle equivalent and attack all the squishy stuff behind. I am concerned that 2 units offers your army more protection than 1 and more threats for your approaching opponent.

Looking at your past reports there are times when the lion units are too small and get eaten over time, mainly because they cant kick out enough attacks. However in those same battles the 2 units effectively secure your flanks and stop the enemy crashing into your lines which you lose with a single unit.

Have you considered perhaps keeping the same sized units as before and switching to swordmasters? A unit of 20 swordmasters can kick out the same number of attacks as 30 white lions and at WS 6 they are rolling 3s to hit with rerolls against elite troops like chaos warriors (a definite plus). They also lose effectiveness less quickly when killed. With a white lion unit if you lose 50% of your men you lose 50% of your attacks and you are in trouble, with 20 swordmasters the loss of 50% of your men leaves you still with around 66% of your damage potential.

The white lions will need to stay in horde to be effective or lose too many attacks, wordmasters can happy reform to 5-7 wide and still cause massive problems offering more mobility.

White lions have stubborn which is a great advantage, but they need it because they may not win combat owing to doing too little damage. The sword masters rarely need stubborn as they are either winning combat and making a mess or they are dead - it would have to be a very small unit of sword masters or an extremely tough opponent to beat a swordmaster unit of any strength in combat.

The biggest benefit to lions is their 3+ save verses shooting. It is worth pointing out that in every other situation they are all toughness 3 and 5+ save but against a line of repeater crossbows this can make a difference. For this reason in a typical elite charge high elf army swordmasters are not the best option as they can be taken out quickly by small arms fire.

However your army is very different and unique. The combination of archers, bolt throwers numerous magic missiles, curse of arrow attraction and withering gives you the opportunity to pick off units of dark elf shades and archers reliably (or equivalents) allowing you to spend a turn or 2 dealing with enemy missile fire as your number 1 priority knowing that the swordmasters will terrify your opponent if the unit is still around half strength or greater. If you can deal with the small arms fire there is very little difference in the survivability of white lions and swordmasters.

2 smaller units of either sword master or white lions is better than one big unit against the big spells that hit all models in the unit and particularly spells that keep you in place. Imagine the nightmare of an opponent coming to your lines and putting the flame cage spell on the 30 lions. All of your combat potential is stuck in place and unable to support your squishy units, if they don't move you lose your archers and artillery, if they do move you suffer 30 hits, 3s to wound with 6+ save - ouch. 2 smaller units means one unit is free to run amok allowing the burning unit to either stay in place and conserve wounds or charge out with fewer casualties.

I really don't know the answer to be honest, but I thought I might give you a brain dump of everything in my head so that hopefully you can find out wahts best for me so I know what to paint more of :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu,

Just another thought regarding deployment, this one more of an abstract one.

I what you're struggling with in this list the most is deployment (feel free to correct me if I'm off base on this one). I think the difficulties you're running in to is that this is a different type of deployment for you - As High Elves, we're used to having lots of drops, including many non-committal ones, and so we're used to one style of deployment: Make the opponent reveal his plan, then react to it with our own deployment.

However, this is definitely not your typical list. You've got less drops, so it's very easy for the deployment phase to become overwhelming very fast if you try to stick to the same methods as before.

I think the solution to your problem is to deploy the terrain, and not necessarily the opponent. What I mean by this is consider the table before you, and your firing channels, which are pivotally important. Your strategy remains relatively unchanged, regardless of what comes through those firing channels, so focus on maximizing that strategy. Thinking about where and when your troops can shoot will result in you being able to put the maximum amount of high quality shots (read: no penalties) into your enemy.

When looking at your board, when I approach it from the angle of a "bowline", I see this:

Image

The areas in black being your firing channels.

Using that diagram, it becomes quite clear where you want to draw your enemy in. The Western forest is going to provide your opponent with cover more than half way across the board, so I would have placed the bulk of my points further east, almost behind the two buildings. For your opponent to get points from you (provided he can't outshoot you, which is a risk here), you would essentially force him into one of those firing channels.

When you deploy like this, you're deploying in a manner that forces a reaction out of your opponent. Here, he would have a choice - either commit directly across from you, which involves a long trek through your "kill zone" (it sounds more badass when you say it like that), or weight his troops heavily east, which still affords you some good shooting and divides his troops by means of the buildings.

All that rambling to say: Deploy the terrain, not the enemy's units.

Just some idle musing :P

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:10 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I'll get back to your replies tomorrow. For now, enjoy the Battle Report from yesterday's game vs rusty.


:: The Lost Ones ::

I used the same list as last game, with the dual Lions and teleporting Prince.

His list:

Beastsweaver - dispel scroll
BSB
Treeman Ancient - +1DD

13 Archers
13 Archers
13 Archers
8 Dryads

6 Treekin
6 Treekin

1 Treeman
1 Treeman

1 Great Eagle
1 Great Eagle

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

We rolled Battle Line. Magic: he got 2,3,4,5 - swapping out one for Wyssan's. I rolled 1,2,3,4 - missing both Flames and Vaul's.

I was anxious to see how Lore of Beasts would go with his units. I know Life can be devastating, but it can also be hard keeping the mage around, close enough for full potential.

He won the roll-off for first turn. With lots of non-commital drops, I deployed in a centralized fashion. The deployment looked like this:

Image

Battle Chronicler version:

Image

He goes first, with a 6 vs a 2.

:: Wood Elves Turn 1 ::

He advances somewhat cautiously, though his Treemen speed up to engage me.

Magic sees the dice give us 4v4. He gets through Curse of Anraheir on my big Archers after a poor dispel roll.

Shooting kills ~10 Archers from my flaming unit. Panic passed due to Naenor's re-roll.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I intend to create good shooting positions and move my units cautiously. The aim is to take out his characters' bunker. Against my list, they're fairly vulnerable.

Magic: 10v6. I start off with Fury of Khaine on 2D6, scoring 3+1 for a value of 8. He dispels it on 2D6. I then roll 2D6 for curse, getting snake eyes. I go to Withering on 4D6, which I also fail to cast. So much for investing in magic? He dispels my ring easily with 4D6 + 4 remaining.

My shooting plucks down a single Dryad and renders his bunker kind of useless by taking down 7 Elves.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 2 ::

Aggressive moves, especially by his Treeman. Characters move to bigger unit. Magic is 5v6 and this time I'm able to stop him entirely.

Shooting kills 7 from my big Archer unit. Panic is passed.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I make some shuffling and redirecting moves to get my wanted combats next turn. The Eagle moves to block off his aggressive Treeman.

Magic is 12v7. I start off with a 4D6 Withering which is dispelled. Intending to swap Cael out through Lore attribute, I follow up with a harmless 2D6 miasma - only to snake eyes a roll again. 2D6 Fury is dispelled and he's out of dice, I have 2 left. I cast bound Fury on 1D6 and it kills 8 from his new bunker. I finish up with Shield on White Lions, just in case the Treekin make a long charge.

Shooting kills his bunker down to 1 model, leaving his Lord mage and BSB on 2W and 1W respectively. The Dryads are brought down to 3.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 3 ::

Treekin go for a long charge on Lions (13.2" away). I hold, they fail. His remaining Dryads charge my Archers. S&S kill 2. His other Forest Spirits move up to engage next turn. One of his eagles charge my RBT (forgot to move it in the diagram last turn), the other blocks my obvious Treekin charge.

Magic 7v5 - no effect though.

Shooting: My Eagle dies, along with 5 Lions from the small unit.

Combat: his Eagle kills one crew but I hold, meaning I can't shoot him in my next turn.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

At this point we took a little break to get some food etc. This suited me fine as I had quite the strategic headache. Here's a picture of the situation he left me with:

Image

I ended up with the following: I want his Treekin unable to engage my Lions together with his Treeman. I also want my Lions to be able to engage his other Treeman, should the big Lions fail to kill it fast and decisively. The solution: I charge his Eagle with the Prince and then the Lions. The big Lions rear-charge his Treeman.

As I move my chargers I realize my 5 strong Archers can't block his Treeman, they're too close to the combat unit (as per the 1" rule) due to the Prince. This really ruins my plan - an overrun with the Lions means I will have to fight the Treekin + Treeman simultaneously - hardly a good idea!

Magic is 10v7. I start with cursing his other Treekin on 2D6 which he lets through. Fury kills off his Archers. I then spend 5D6 on Withering but again get a poor roll (14). He dispels on 5D6. This leaves 1v2 which sees my Archmage get Shield through on the roll of a 6 on my big Lions.

Shooting: Lots of Archers + BSB open up on Treekin. After Reaver Bow fails to wound twice and he makes 7/8 saves against the arrows, he only loses 2 wounds. My remaining RBT targets his Lord mage, needing 5+ to hit. Unfortunately, only 1 bolt finds its target, leaving him on 1W.

Combat is disastrous. My rear-charging Lions fail to wound his Treeman once. The Prince kills the Eagle and overruns into the Treekin, the Lions restraining. His Eagle kills the RBT and reforms to face the other.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 4 ::

Diagram is a little off here - his Treekin had an easy rear charge on my Lions and took it. His Treeman Ancient went in against my other Lions, barely wheeling to get in base-to-base against Cael.

Magic is 8v8. He 6-dices Curse on my double-engaged Lions which kills his mage with the miscast.

Shooting is irrelevant and combat ensues...

My mage dies to his Ancient's 5 attacks (just barely though!). In return, the Lions put 4 (!) wounds on him!

The other Lions dish out some hurt but lose a few, being down to 12 remaining. I pass break test due to Naenor.

Saerith deals a wound and is teleported away 11" towards his BSB. His Eagle breaks my RBT and the Archers panic.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Victory is looking pretty slim now. In my magic phase there's not a lot I can do. I harass his Treekin with dual-missiles but he saves his DD for Shield. Even on 6D6 I can't get it through his non-boosted defense (7D6 though).

Shooting: I try and kill his Archers (who had moved beyond the wall by the way, giving Saerith a flank shot). I hit with the Seafarer bow but roll a 1 on my first D6. The other Archers only kill 4 and he passes panic.

In combat I kill his Ancient but only a couple of Lions are left by now, staring at some angry Treekin. The other Lions, having only 12 models left, all die to his Forest Spirits.

Image

Rest of the game: he charges my big Archers with Treekin, small Archers with Treeman. He kills them both easily. The Lions die to Treekin, Prince is shot down (AFTER killing his BSB ;)). By turn 6, I have nothing left.

:: Victory Points ::

As I was tabled it was a massacre to the Wood Elves. He'd lost:
- 1 Eagle
- 1 Treeman Ancient
- 1 Lord mage
- 1 BSB
- 13 Archers

:: Evaluation ::

Although magic was fickle, it wasn't insanely bad (I've lost my Archmage T1 several times before). Deployment-wise I didn't get the proper arcs of fire which I wanted and as a result I frequently lost a lot of shots / had to shoot through cover.

The Lions again ended up getting the shit end of things again, tasked with the hardest assignments. A Prince-charge-screwup meant this was too much for them. In hindsight, a lot of things would've needed to go differently for them to succeed. First of all - target prioritization: with my magic phases being so useless early on, I should've given up taking out his bunkers with everything, instead targeting treemen with the bigger shots.

Army-wise, I believe I need to change a few things. I experience a real lack of killing power between the two units of Lions: I can't kill things fast enough. Damage per frontage needs to increase drastically. I also find that the Shadow mage is too expensive for what he does. Granted, he was good in my game against Vampire Counts, but I believe these can be dealt with in another way. I also feel a real lack of spell selection for my Archmage. Vaul's may not have been the most important spell (though it could've taken out the scroll) but missing flames was a huge bummer (I got no doubles). I could also really use a second Eagle.

Overall though rusty deployed and played better than me. After his former 4 losses, this was definitely a deserved win as the matches have been way closer than the results might seem to implicate.

Regards,
~Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:27 am 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
First off, thanks for posting the report, even if it didn't go so well :\

To start with, you did make a few mistakes which hurt you (the archers not being able to misdirect the Treeman being the biggest) but you were also rather unlucky with many of your rolls (spell selection, winds of magic, casting values, rolling to wound etc.) which didn't really help matters. I do however feel there are a couple things you could have done differently that may have helped you overall.

As far as setup goes, it seems like you're trying to use your White Lions as both the Hammer and Anvil (your setup is indicative of this) and thus, are not being able to punch through as your taking too much hurt from turns of combat. Remember that the original idea of this list revolves around the archer Horde acting as the Anvil rather than the White Lions (in Furion's list for instance, the two are one unit and sweep around to clear whatever the Archers just held). To this end, when you deploy the Lions you may want to consider putting them both on one flank with all the archers on the other or otherwise split them up and put them on both flanks (rather than middle and flank). Something like this:

Image

This will also prevent you from getting in your own way so much and your opponent will have to swing more towards whichever flank you weight more heavily, allowing you to play all your defensive tactics properly rather than having to improvise on the fly (he won't be able to rush forward so quickly without seriously risking flank charges and thus will have to adapt his plan, rather than the other way around).

As far as the game went, why didn't the Bolt Throwers and the Lord Shoot the Treemen (or did they and am I just misreading: it seems like they were always shooting Archers?) Piercing through armor (and ignoring Wards in the case of the Bow) would have really helped to soften up the Treemen before they reached your lines (that is what they're there for after all). Even if you'd been able to take off half their wounds without killing them, you would have had a much higher chance of being able to take them out in combat before dealing with the Treekin.

As far as magic went, well that's the way the game goes sometimes: if there wasn't that chance of failing even in the face of the best laid plans, there wouldn't be a reason to play! This did really hurt you though, especially with how many points you put into magic, so you can blame much of the loss on the dice gods!

Hope that helps!

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Loosing both rolls for deployment and first turn hurt you. That said, I took step to minimize the impact if you got first turn, and I had a backup plan in case you got the other hill, where cover for my advance were much more sparse. I won't tell you the plan though, I might need it next time we meet :wink:.

@Axiems suggested deployment: That would be a challenge. I would be forced to chose between engaging your archers and WL. I only had four heavy combat units, and I need two of those to reliably take down one unit of WL. Then again, I have 8 relatively non-commital drops, the only static ones being treekin. Everybody else has the movement or the range to redeploy fairly rapidly. Curus list has two non-commital, the eagle and the RBTs. You can say that the smallest archer unit is non-commital, in that it can be dropped as a sacrifice on one flank and might get ignored, or as in this game he placed it as the first drop on the hill, reasoning that it was rather obvious. Still, Axiems deployment carries the risk that I had deployed centre/right, forcing the WLs to advance, maybe with a treeman flanking them in turn.

As for the game itself. Very hard fought, very challenging. Curu suffered from some bad rolls, but nothing spectaculary Mage-going-supernova-in-turn-one bad. Being able to move my archers with no penalty, I took care to screen them so he never had 100% use of his archers. Although he did a good job of trying. I did, as usual, underestimate the damage he could do at range when concentrating on the character bunker. If he had killed my mage in turn two I'm pretty sure the game would have swung. Losing both the scroll and +4 to dispel early would mean that his magic would have taken down one or two forest spirit units to a point where the WL could have defeated them. Learing point for later.

Doing the math, 21 WL will lose or win by 1-2 pts vs a 6 strong TK unit the first two combat turns, and be destroyed in the third while TK will still be at half strength. As long a s the TK are within BSB and general range I can be pretty certain they'll hold to complete the destruction. Also, my chances of charging in a treeman second turn are much greater than you charging in a secound WL unit. Summary: your combat units are at a disadvantage.

If you go for a WL horde there are ups and downs. With flaming and magical attacks you will kill any TK or treeman in one turn. I would have to either engage them with all my combat units at once or ignore the horde and go for the archers. I have three redirectors (dryads are too) , so I might be able to keep the horde out of combat for most of the game unless you're wise and shoot them all early. For my army, a definitive challenge.

The downside is that you're much easier outdeployed and outmanouvered. Other armies might have good answers to your horde, like sixdiceing Dreaded Thirteenth, Gateway, or 3+ ward chaos warriors. Wood Elves doesn't.

Oh, and ditch the prince. Entertaining, particulary the part where I bounce him around with arrows, but not that useful :)

Another learning point. We need to play faster. With two all-phases armies, lots of manouvering and some hard choices we spent 4-5 hours. Tournament limit is 2,5 hours.

About Magic. I think a death mage with -1 S/T and -3LD would have been more powerful in this game. Panic tests at Ld6, even with a reroll are no sure thing. Neither are stubborn Ld5 treemen. Breaking that one treeman at the point where you won that combat would have led to you flanking and breaking my treekin in the next turn, while leaving my other treekin out of the fight for one turn or two depending on how much fleeing you'd do with your archers.

For my magic, Beasts was decent this game. My mage ended up at the back, where all Life spells would have been out of range, while Curse of Anraheir still worked. I'm still considering Beasts since it has better answers to Daemons and the VC knight bus, two armies I'm pretty sure to have trouble with at the upcoming tournament. Coincidently, that's probably the two armies you will have most trouble with too - if nothing else they're the some of the best players.

For our next game, would you like to face WE again, or something else?
I'm pretty sure you'll win easily with a WL horde unless I come up with some new tactics. Were I able to charge the horde with all four heavy hitters, you would still cause ~35 wounds before I can strike. Even a flank charge is something you can reform to face in your next turn.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:47 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I updated the report with my evaluation. Now, to your replies:

@Sirgilly - thanks for the brain dump! Random musings and a complete 'screenshot' of ones thoughts can often be enough to get the wheels turning. As for simply switching to Swordmasters, I believe this is suicide as for armies like Wood Elves, Dark Elves etc (e.g. armies with decent shooting and strong combat) my melee units will get decimated before combat ensues. I am interested in using Swordmasters though, due to their insane damage output. I believe a different approach is called for, one where they typically operate in 1/2 small units. At the moment I consider 7 the ideal size for them.

@Brewmaster_D - good point about deploying the terrain. I could've gone for this in this particular matchup as I was severely behind, drop-wise. Curiously enough, Axiem's suggested deployment matches your pretty well!

@Axiem - I need to learn how to deploy more like this. I'm going to dive deeper into deployment with this list as it's currently the area where I feel I make the most mistakes (ironically enough as I always felt that I outdeployed my opponents with the cavalry list). Your suggestion here makes a lot of sense. Your point about the Archer anvil is very good - trying to make the Lions fit both of these needs often means they get an impossible role, since they can't do two things at the same time. As someone else pointed out, they have secured my flank a couple of times. But, with your suggested deployment here, is there really any flanks to worry about? One is covered by the horde, the other is expendable.

@rusty - First of all, good game, sir! As for Death magic - will consider it as soulblight is a good candidate (its amazing cast value of 9+ allows for a fairly safe bet on 3D6 with a level 2). Doom and Darkness also has a lot of potential, for sure: it helps me out with my winning combats decisively problem AND it can most definitely increase the usefulness of my shooting, what with armies taking panic tests on -3LD.

As for target priority - I should've definitely targeted the Treemen some more. If I'd have stopped and calculated a bit more I would've realized that killing his characters would've been a long shot.

So I want to finish with a suggested change of my list:

Prince as is (the AoC + luckstone is equally expensive so it's an easy swap).
Archmage - swap crystal for wand (+30 points)
BSB minus charmed shield (+5 points)
Mage - drop seerstaff for crystal (-10 points), switch to Metal

Core as is

Big Lion unit - add 9 Lions, including a Guardian with Amulet of Light (-162)
Small Lion unit - drop entirely (+293)
Add 7 Swordmasters (-105)
Add 1 Great Eagle (-50)

The result as follows:

High Magic Archmage Curu Olannon - level 4, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand, Dragonbane Gem :: 315
Prince Saerith - Bow of the Seafarer, Armour of Stars, Talisman of Loec, Great Weapon :: 262
Noble Naenor - Battle Standard Bearer, Reaver Bow, Ironcurse Icon, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon :: 169
Metal Mage Cael - level 2, Annulian Crystal :: 175

26 Archers - standard bearer and musician :: 301
15 Archers - standard bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and musician :: 190
12 Archers - musician :: 137

30 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Sorcery & Amulet of Light :: 545
7 Swordmasters of Hoeth :: 105

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers :: 200
2 Great Eagles :: 100

====
2499

The list thus adds up to 2499. I have one more drop, but most importantly that's a non-committing drop. I'm also considering shuffling the Archers around to get another drop even.

This is beginning to look more and more like Furion's list. Perhaps this is a logical evolution, perhaps I'm just influenced by him. Most likely it's a bit of both. The main points here involve the mage change (shadow -> metal) and the Lion horde. The Lion horde has already been explained further up. The mage is more interesting:
- The Withering rarely goes through when needed. I find its 18" too short to matter: usually you only get one cast, maybe 2, before combat ensues. If you boost it, you're likely too far away to do any real damage with most of your Archers. It also takes a massive bite out of my power dice, something I don't appreciate much as it's not a typical 6-dice spell. You can use it as such, of course. Perhaps this is simply what I should start doing - using more brute force when it comes to Shadow. The added benefit of getting the Wand of the Archmage is great.

Metal has a LOT of useful spells. Against most (any?) lists, 2 spells will ensure at least 1 useful cast. The Lore has 2 typical 6-dice spells (Searing Doom, Transmutation), of which one is a hard counter to a typical list weakness (e.g. cavalry bus, steam tank) and always selectable. Between Plague of Rust, Enchanted Blades and Glittering Scales, there's a very good chance for getting a good support spell or two. I believe the worst selection I can get here is rolling 4, 5 (gehenna's hounds, transmutation of lead) against Daemons of Chaos. This is a very rare case though, and a semi-thorough brainstorming did not reveal any other significantly poor rolls (due to the usefulness of the 3 aforementioned spells and always being able to select Searing Doom).

I've still not decided 100%, but I do believe Metal is better. With another spell on the Archmage, he can keep the trickle up fairly well on his own. If I score one or two of the more useful support spells from Metal, this is just a bonus. Mostly, it's insurance against hard counters to my list. I don't think any other Lore has a selection which, in this list context, is this forgivable for a level 2. There's also rusty's suggested Lore of Death approach, which I believe has a lot of potential.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:04 am
Posts: 169
Curu, I agree Metal is a really interesting Lore for a L2. Enchanted Blades would be an awesome spell with the archer horde you are running, and glittering robes you could easily cast every turn on something valuable. The only reason I have moved away from it is that my most common enemy right now is Skaven, and it loses its value against a horde army with little armor.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:48 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I just got home from playing 2 games: one against Ogre Kingdoms and one against Orcs and Goblins. Both were at 2500 points and I tried my new list (the last change proposal, with a slight change). A couple of things I made a note of:
- Armour of Stars needs to go. It makes the Prince too vulnerable: If I need the lions to act as a hammer unit, that means that they'll often be charging: if the Prince carries the armour of stars and receives any wounds, he'll teleport out in my opponent's next turn. This is usually disastrously dangerous, between magic missiles, direct damage spells and war machines, virtually every army has some kind of way of threatening a T3 6+ save lone guy.
- A second Eagle is a must. The versatility granted by these birds is amazing. I don't know how Furion manages with just one: I need at least a couple
- The shooting and magic part of things is highly random. S3 shots only go so far, even magically buffed
- I miss my cavalry. Even though I'm more of a fan of this setup out of principle, I really miss at least one strong, mobile element. I don't think I can make one work in this list.
- I love Annulian Crystal. It's an amazing item.
- Having a backup mage with a spell which is decent at any time is amazing. It's about having the right spell at the right time and not losing the rest of your magic potential should your first spell fail to cast.

Anyways, I'll get the report up as soon as possible. In the meantime, consider this:

Would a middle ground between my old and new list work? E.g. running a cavalry Prince with all-Archer core? I'm finding that the huge investment in magic doesn't pay off enough. Part of it is due to scenarios and terrain (short distances, lots of cover), part of it is due to its random nature. Another problem with running High Magic is the lack of things to compensate for your problems in melee, once you get there. Shield can be a lifesaver, however compared to Life and Shadow which I'm usually running, it comes up short.

So - opinions please :)

EDIT: Potential mix of this list and the former cavalry approach:

Life Archmage with Seerstaff - 290
Prince on barded Steed with Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Dragon Armour, Shield - 281
BSB with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone - 168
Beasts mage with Annulian Crystal - 140

26 Archers, Standard Bearer and Musician - 301
15 Archers, Standard Bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and Musician - 190
12 Archers, Musician - 137

29 White Lions, Full Command with Banner of Sorcery - 515
9 Dragon Princes, Full Command - 320

2 Great Eagles - 100

====
2442 - leaving some points to play around with

The reasoning is as follows:

Spears never did a lot, barring Shadow Magic to back them up. I've found the current core setup to work quite well actually. With Life, the big Archers can function well as a combat block, if needed. With all these shots and an aggressive army, there's no need for any RBT's, which are horribly overcosted compared to other races' war machines. The beasts mage is around for the crystal primarily. I've also considered High on him, but it boils down to the fact that he can help me out if Flesh to Stone gets dispelled. In comparison, Regrowth is better than Shield in most situations and Drain is situational. Wyssan's is very useful in a lot of situations and can be cast reasonable safe on 3D6 (on the Dragon Princes).

Magic-wise, I can still cast a trickle of 2-3D6 spells (throne, flesh, wyssan's) and I have Dwellers for taking out an early scroll, allowing me to properly support my combat units when needed.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:00 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Ok people, before posting the reports I'm putting up the deployment pictures from yesterday. I'd again like your input with regards to how you think I did in both these cases, deployment-wise.

First game was against Ogre Kingdoms. We rolled Blood and Glory, meaning the extreme flanks were unavailable and his Maneaters could get to my characters quicker than normal.

Rough list:
Slaughtermaster
Firebelly
BSB
8 Ironguts (with both casters)
6 Bulls
6 Maneaters (sniper, poison)
2 Leadbelchers
1 Thundertusk

The result was as follows:

Image

Second game was against Orcs and Goblins. We rolled Meeting Engagement and I got to choose a corner. I was anxious that he'd just deploy way back in his corner, outranging me with artillery. He also noted at the end of the game that in a tournament setting, he'd do exactly this to get a small victory (which he would've gotten). I'll have to be careful with this in the upcoming tournament as this can easily happen to me.

Rough list:
Orc lvl 4 mage
Black Orc BSB
Orc lvl 1 mage
Goblin lvl 2 mage
Goblin lvl 1 mage

27 Savage Orcs
100 Speargoblins
100 Archer Goblins
25 Archer Goblins
3x10 squig herds (1 squig each)
2 Mangler Squigs
1 Snotling Pump Wagon
2 Catapults
2 Doom Divers
2 Bolt Throwers

Anyways, the result after deployment was as follows EDIT - this was actually after my Turn 1. Because I landed Flames of the Phoenix on his 100-Spear unit it looks a lot smaller than it was (T3, no armor). Regardless, I had almost no movement in my Turn 1 so to all intents and purposes this was the deployment. :

Image

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Deployment vs Ogres: Decent. You're able to concentrate all fire into maneaters, which you should, and the house lets you split his advance. On the other hand, to use your WL unit you might have to block your own fire lane. And since you should decimate the ME with shooting your leaving WL far from the action. Also, your right flank is in trouble if the ogres swing one big unit around the right side of the house, and flank your line. Moved properly they will stay in cover of the house until they can charge. Good call on hiding eagles behind something hard vs cannons.

Deployment vs OnG: Very strong defensive position you got there. Just remember that OnG is a defensive army in 8th. Cheap templates and potentially very destructive magic. *Might* have been better to deploy WL max forward centre. Another thing to remember is that his army takes up a lot of space, so you can somewhat determine where he'll end up.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:03 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Not sure I understand the Ogre deployment enough to comment. For starters, he appears to have 2 Ironblaster models that you didn't include in his rough army list. Kinda large thing to forget about! Where are your characters? What spells did everyone have?

Generally I like the archer placement, but the Eagles seem too close together and I don't like the Swordmasters behind an archer unit.

If your wizards are in the White Lions, you did a great job of getting away from the Maneaters. But you have a fundamentally large problem of 24" range spells against 24" range sniper attacks. This really shows where Curse of Arrow Attraction falls short - your bows go further than the support spell, making the support spell even less useful.

Still, the big problem here is the overall matchup. Except the White Lion horde, everything he has can take on everything you have. Swordmasters can win a fight, but not if they get charged. Your need your magic bows to help out a lot, because without them he has the shooting advantage.



Against the greenskins, I think you bunkered way too much. At minimum a little archer unit should have been out on your left flank (down in the picture). I worry your White Lion horde could get caught behind the building, or have their charge restricted by it.

I understand wanting the tiered hill (no terrain like that should exist in a tournament using angled deployment), but I think you were better on the other side. Then the building could mess up his deployment/advance, and there would be fewer things messing up your firing lanes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:14 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
(I'll address your comments later)

My first game yesterday, against Ogre Kingdoms.

:: The Big Beasties of the East ::

His army list was roughly as follows:

Slaughtermaster, 4+ ward armour, sickle
Firebelly, dispel scroll
BSB
8 Ironguts
6 Bulls
1 Leadbelcher
1 Leadbelcher
1 Thundertusk

My army list was a slight deviation:

Archmage, ring of fury, wand, anti-fire gem
Mage, crystal
BSB Reaver
Prince Armour of Stars, Seafarer

Standard core

30 White Lions, Banner of Sorcery + other trickster's shard
7 Swordmasters

2 RBT
2 Eagles

:: Getting ready and deploying ::

Magic was as follows: he didn't get regen, firebelly defaulted to magic missile. No biggie there. I got Blades of Aiban + Searing Doom for my metal and 1,2,3,5,6 for high (no double missile :( ).

Scenario was Blood and Glory (modified version: first to break the opponent gets +800 VP).

Deployment-wise I felt I had an advantage - The Lions were on the flank and the big Archers firmly in the middle, flanked by lots of redirectors. I forgot to put the Swordmasters in my army in Chronicler so they're not shown. They deployed behind the small Archers to my East.

Image

He went first after I rolled a 1 and he a 6.

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 1 ::

Everything moved up. Magic was 4v6 which meant he got nothing through my defences. His Maneaters target one of my Eagles but only wound it twice! The rest of his shooting kills a couple of Archers and a Swordmaster.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

Small shuffles around. The wounded Eagle goes to block his Bulls, forcing them to overrun into the building and thus stay still for a turn, enabling me to hammer his center without fearing his flank charge.

Magic is 10v4. I fail to cast Blades on big archers on the roll of 4. Curse is then dispelled, Vaul's on his Ironguts is scrolled. I finish with a 3D6 flames on his Ironguts which is cast with IF! The result is a 3, and I promptly roll a 3, killing my Archmage Turn 1. Again.

Shooting kills 2 Manhunters, the Archers firing well after Saerith misses his 2+ shot.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 2 ::

He moves further up, wanting to engage me soon enough. One of his Sabertusks has my smaller Archers' flank and charges, making it. The Bulls charge the Eagle.

Magic is 12v7. Since I only fear one spell (+T) there's no effect.

Shooting fails to do anything after his Maneaters fail to Snipe Cael. His cannon takes out a Repeater though.

Combat sees his Sabertusk kill an Archer, winning combat. I fail my re-rollable LD8 steadfast test and am run down. By a 21 point cat.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

The Swordmasters move in to being 15" away from his bulls (they're not in the diagram but were 6 left at this point), hoping to stall them and maybe kill a couple. The rest of my army shuffles a bit, opening up fire lanes and preparing for an engagement next turn. Though the diagram might imply it, the Lions were too far away to have a likely charge on his Maneaters. My Eagle blocks his Ironguts since I don't want him forcing me to charge them. The plan is roughly to kill his other combat units (Maneaters, Thundertusk) and then come around at their back or kill his flank (Bulls + Cannon).

Magic sees me Searing Doom his Cannon, scoring 5 hits. I only manage 1 roll of a 4+ though.

Shooting sees me fail to impress his Maneaters as much as I would like to, after I AGAIN fail to hit on 2+ with Saerith.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 3 ::

Ironguts charge Eagle. The Bulls make their long charge on my Swordmasters (needed 9+) :(

Magic is 8v7. He starts off with a 3D6 panic test @ Lions, which I let through. He then IF's his +1T boosted, increasing like ALL his units' toughness. The miscast result has no effect what-so-ever.

Shooting - his Maneaters finally kill Cael after hitting with poisoned attacks, meaning I'm left without a mage at all. The rest of his shooting kills my last Repeater.

Combat - Swordmasters do nothing after a bunch of impact hits and his +1T. They're killed and he overruns off the table. The Ironguts kill the Eagle and restrain.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

I charge his Maneaters with my Lions. Knowing I have to win decisively and carry on against the Tusk, I also declare a hard charge with my BSB. If he fails, he'll act as a roadbump, allowing a possible dual-combat since my Lions can turn around and rear-charge his Ironguts. I fail the BSB charge and a couple of Lions drop to Stand and Shoot.

Magic is non-existant, shooting does very little.

Combat - I win big against his Maneaters and overrun into his Thundertusk after he fails to roll insane courage on his 2W champion.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 4 ::

He charges my solo BSB. Magic is 7v6 but he can't get his +1T through. Shooting does fairly little.

Combat - and this is decisive. I HAVE to kill the Thundertusk to be able to turn around and engage his Ironguts who'll surely overrun into my Archers. I therefore activate Talisman of Loec. Between the Prince and Lions, I score 14 hits, needing 4+ to wound. I then proceed to only get 3 wounds, despite of Loec (Prince had 3 hits). Sigh, I'm not supposed to win this game. The Prince teleports close to my remaining Archers (not shown in diagram, but in the next one). BSB dies, he overruns into big Archers.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Prince joins up with Archers and they shoot the Cannon. Saerith AGAIN fails to hit on a 2+ and the Archers deal it a wound. Combat sees my Archers die, Ironguts reforming to face Lions, who kill off the Tusk, reforming to face his cannon.

Image

:: Ogre Kingdoms Turn 5 ::

He charges my Lions, who are now 10-12 remaining, and I flee, getting away. Magic sees him missile them, killing a handful, leaving 6-7. The left Cannon charges my Archers + Prince. I stand and shoot but Saerith still cannot roll anything but a 1 for that bow, so he makes it.

Combat - he fluffs impact hits and is killed in return! I reform to face his lines, making sure to place Saerith with good line of sight to his remaining cannon.

Image

The rest of the game went like this: Saerith actually hit the cannon on a 2+ in my next turn, wounding it on 4+ and dealing 3 wounds through D3. The Archers then managed to bring it down to 1W. In his turn, he tried to missile my Lions and panic my Archers, neither working out for him. In my very last turn, his cannon was in hard cover. Saerith somehow managed to hit it, despite needing 4+, but failed to wound. 4 Archers hit it also, but only 1 wound... The game ended with a dramatic saving throw of 4+, which he made!

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up victory points, we find that he's killed 1503 while I've killed 1126. This meant that even if I had killed the Cannon I would've lost by 200 points - enough for him to claim a victory.

Sadly, another loss for my Vindicators, making 3 in a row with this kind of list.

:: Evaluation ::

I believe I got a pretty good start, deployment-wise. I managed to create a refused flank situation from which my Lions could really dominate their side of the board, which is exactly what they did.

Last time I lost my Archmage Turn 1 against Ogre Kingdoms, I was very lucky for the rest of the game, what with my Swordmasters single-handedly killing most of his army and the cavalry finishing him off. This time however, I really didn't feel much love from the dice.

I think I played pretty well in this game. Perhaps I should've used my Swordmasters centrally as well and sacrificed Naenor to get a potential triple-charge on his Ironguts. Had I not lost the Archers to the Cat, they could've blocked his Bulls off. The end result was pretty close, not even 400 points worth of difference between us.

Anyways, let me hear your thoughts on it all :) Next report coming up is my second game yesterday, which was against Orcs and Goblins!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:22 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
The cannon-chariots are "Ironblasters", not "Leadbelchers". Leadbelchers are Ogres with a super handgun (Empire is very jealous).

Given your suicidal Archmage, I'm surprised the points came out as close as they did. If his level 4 had provided the same kindness in return, even on turn 6, you get a draw.

That said, your opponent confuses me a bit. His cannons moved up the first turn, letting your shooting get in range of them. Why not just leave them back, at least until they blow up your RBTs? He seems to have just given you points for that one Ironblaster, despite bad rolls on your part. Why no dead RBT from them turn 1? Did he misfire, or just roll horrible shots? With double roll of the bounce, those cannons are unpleasantly accurate.
Why would the Maneaters shoot your Eagles turn 1? Even though killing one Eagle is nice, he took sniper, has squishy HE Mages to target, and doesn't do it?
The one Sabretusks obviously paid for himself with crazy luck against your archers, but did it do anything afterwards, or did the other sabretusk? I expected them to stand in front of your White Lions at some point.
Despite your unluckily failing to drop it immediately, he seems to have also given you the Thundertusk by bad positioning. If it isn't in the overrun path, it gets to charge you!


I'm not finding anything you did wrong, really. I'd have the Prince in an archer unit, so shooting is easier for him. You got the White Lions into the fight properly, but the dice didn't like you. You made the enemy get lucky to kill the Swordmasters, and he did.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:28 pm 
Offline
Rhetor militaris
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:50 pm
Posts: 451
Dabber summed it up nicely, so +1 to his post, but I"ll add my two cents.

Firstly, considering the bad luck you had (and have been having unfortunately) you did fairly well to hold on as long as possible, even if your opponent didn't completely capitalize on his units' potentials, as dabber points out.

On deployment, the bolt throwers are still too close together. Baring him playing better with his Ironblasters (he could have moved his left (picture's right) Ironblaster up and possibly hit both), the two of them together like that makes them easy targets for his Dogs or a Gorger, had he had one.

Also, it seems that in your last few games, between your Prince and your Bolt Throwers, your non-archer shooting hasn't been doing a whole lot; all the big beasties are still alive and they haven't been doing anything spectacular against troops either (unless I'm misreading something?). Maybe a more reliable anti-monster solution is in order?

In response to the new list:

Quote:
Life Archmage with Seerstaff - 290
Prince on barded Steed with Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Dragon Armour, Shield - 281
BSB with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone - 168
Beasts mage with Annulian Crystal - 140

26 Archers, Standard Bearer and Musician - 301
15 Archers, Standard Bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and Musician - 190
12 Archers, Musician - 137

29 White Lions, Full Command with Banner of Sorcery - 515
9 Dragon Princes, Full Command - 320

2 Great Eagles - 100


Looks like two big Deathstars, and not a whole lot to support them. Each unit weighs in at over 600 points, once characters are included, and it's really hurting the abilities of the rest of your list. It could work spectacularly against some lists, especially the Ogres and Vampires you lost to, but against other such as Lizardmen, Skaven, Dark Elves, or the Orc and Goblin army to come, it will probably be misdirected and shot to bits without making it's points back.

Is that really what you want in your list? Looking back at your original lists, you liked to field a variety of units, including cavalry, and have a knack for making them work for you: your tactics are sound and you won nearly every game you played because you had the tools to make that happen. Now however, it seems you're thinking and worrying about too many solutions and are streamlining the list so much, to remove potential liabilities, that you're creating something which not only doesn't reflect you (which may also be affecting your luck), but it's also not terribly feasible anymore (you're looking for points to spend and are reducing the tools you have available to make that happen).

I'm not suggesting that you go back to what you were playing before but instead of worrying that you can't take Swordmasters because they'll be a liability against shooting, and you have to take 100% of your core as Archers because they're better than Spearmen, and you can't take Silver Helms because they don't do as much damage as Dragon Princes, you take what you enjoy playing and make it work for you. Yes, the sound conclusions of others certainly hold water, but they shouldn't force you to play something which you'd rather not, even if mathematically they'll be more successful.

To that end, I'd suggest rethinking the White Lion horde. It's a large portion of your army and so far, it hasn't been doing proportionally as much as it should. Maybe breaking this up into two units of Elites, possibly one of Swordmasters, or dropping it all together and adding in Spearmen and more Cavalry, would help your list more.

Hope that helps!

Axiem


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
However if you have the support units to clear your opponents chaff and get your lions stuck into a favourable unit they can do alot of damage.

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
I'll go ahead and provide another +1 to Dabber's comments, and a +1 for Axiem's as well.

While I agree with your thoughts about damage per frontage being a necessary tool in the High Elf arsenal, there's a point where if you try to cram too much damage into one spot, it becomes more of a liability. The reason for this is that as Axiem alluded to, you've spent a huge budget of points on the unit, and have in doing so assigned it the imperative that it try to earn its points back. This makes the unit predictable, and it also makes your opponent's job of using his redirectors very, very easy.

The other weakness I see with the horde is its maneuverability. As mentioned before in your post about hitting power per frontage, the imperative the high elf army has is to deal enough damage that the damage coming back is mitigated. Another great way to mitigate damage incoming is to get on the opponent's flank. This is part of the reason (in fact, probably the only reason :P) my MSU list works - get them on the flank using eagles as positioning tools, and you can greatly reduce the amount of damage your units take. Now, I realize that your list has a drastically different playstyle, but fielding a horde is basically surrendering this option right off the bat.

I do think a list like this has potential - I did field one similar to this a few weeks ago - however I think it's going to have some armies which are going to be an uphill climb at best: Armies that can quickly neutralize your shooting, or mitigate it by closing the distance quickly and efficiently.

D

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:50 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
First, for your replies:

@rusty - Maneaters were definitely my target, with the metal mage having an excellent choice of Searing Doom on his Ironblaster to secure my flank. This would allow the Lions to dominate the movement part, engaging as I please, where I please. I don't believe my right flank would have ever been in trouble: turning his Ironguts around to the other flank, between redirectors and the long distance (it's a big unit, 1" rule + wheel would've taken them ages) they might have seen 2 combats, at best. In return I would've obliterated Maneaters w/BSB + Ironblaster for the loss of maybe 2RBT, 2 Eagles and the Swordmasters. With regards to OnG, I agree. It can be hard trying to play the shootier part, especially when the range of the table is HUGE diagonally.

@dabber - The ones I called Leadbelchers were Ironblasters. My bad there! Swordmasters behind Archers was to protect them from Maneaters. As for overall matchup, you're right. I don't see it as a big problem though. Under normal circumstances with my Archmage alive I should be able to handle this without any severe problems. A couple of rounds of Fury of Khaine + Flames of the Phoenix would've made the Ironguts weak enough for my Lions to win a head-on fight. I don't get your point about bunkering way too much, unless you're talking about the risk of having him deploy his entire army in the other corner and outshooting me. Between the terrain and the distance, I could easily split up his advance as I please.

As for your game comments: I believe he played too aggressively as well. He misfired a couple of times, losing a couple of shots. Sorry for not including this in the BR, got stressed out during the game because he was trying to squeeze in 2 games @ 5-6 hours. As for Maneaters targeting Eagle: My Archmage was out of sight (poor diagram) being on the extreme flank behind an Eagle. The other mage was in cover, though arguably a better target. The sabertusks didn't do anything apart from taking out that small archer unit. They were shot at some point (I believe the diagrams reflect this correctly). The Thundertusk placement was thoughtless indeed and almost allowed me to get back in the game.

As for Prince in White Lions - having him closer meant I could move and still hit on 2+ (not that it mattered). Besides, I wanted to have a big shot (S6) potentially targeting an Ironblaster without wasting S3 shots. I never intended to march much with the Lions anyway and I (correctly) assumed I would be needing his melee-boost mid-game.

@Axiem - glad to hear your critical comments. Your worries are similar to mine: are two deathstars really a way to go or am I theorizing and streamlining too much? As for a more reliable anti-monster solution: my rolling with the magic bows have been terrible. I don't know what more reliable solutions we have available. When I can't hit 2+ / 3+ rolls it doesn't really matter what choices I have. Also, losing the Archmage early really hampered my magic options, which in turn weakens my shooting.

@Lord Anathir - my point exactly. This is also what Furion manages to do again and again. I find that with two smaller units, this is a lot harder.

@Brewmaster_D - are you talking about the current setup or my best-of-both-worlds theoretical list? I believe that the reasoning for this list echo a lot of what's been said for Furion's list. That includes the Lion horde. As for engaging flanks - this list setup doesn't really have the means necessary to play MSU-style I believe. Looking at my Lions' move in this here game, it's easy to see that they dominated a flank easily. I nearly had them rear-charging his Ironguts as well.

Lastly - rethinking the Lion horde: with the current setup, I'm confident it's the way to go. It makes deployment a lot easier and the damage per frontage is just vital. If I do go back to a cavalry-approach though, I'll see what I end up doing. I might include Spears and simply have 2 smallish units of Archers, I might split the Lions. I'm still undecided with regards to what I'll be taking to the tournament. Though I have played some tough lists and good opponents lately, my track record with the Furion-inspired approach is pretty horrible.

I'll try and get the OnG battle report up fairly soon :) Thanks for all your replies, keep them coming! After that report goes up, I have a lot of questions to which I'd really like some input before deciding on my tournament-list.

Regards,
~Olannon

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:14 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I've thought about your comment Axiem and re-read a lot of my old reports to see how I played, how difficult situations were handled etc. In a way, I believe the cavalry approach can work if augmented by stronger infantry and better magical defense + offensive flexibility. As such, I devised the following list:

Archmage - 335 (Seer, Ring of Fury, Dragonbane Gem - I'm considering Silver Wand + Guardian Phoenix for this one)
Prince - 281 (Standard cavalry)
BSB - 168 (Standard infantry)
Mage - 140 (Beasts lvl 1 + annulian)

Core 625 (can be anything but usually 2 units of Archers + big spears)

Rare 100 (2 Eagles)

Total: 1649 so far, leaving 850 for specials.

9 DP full CO BoS - 370 (fairly obvious pick, a strong hammer for my Prince)

18 WL - 270 (a good and stable unit)

14 SM - 210 (killy-killy)

Total: 2499

So - a couple of thoughts:

Compared to my old cavalry approach, this has way better magical defense, more infantry and a strong bus. Offensively, it sports Dwellers and Ring of Fury. Hopefully, this can draw out the inevitable scroll before combat ensues. At this point, getting either Wyssan's or Flesh to Stone off should be fairly easy.

My biggest concerns with this list:
- No High Magic leaves me less flexible (Vaul's, Flames, Drain) but less prone to miscasts (Throne)
- Way less shooting means I often have to play the aggressive part. With that being said, my former reports show that this might not necessarily be a bad thing as I tend to play better, both deployment-wise and movement-wise, compared to this defensively styled list
- Dwellers is inherently bad against Daemons, especially Khorne oriented ones. Both Bloodletters and Flamers are S5 base. This means it can be really hard drawing a scroll out before combat is started. With Daemons frequently sporting 2 scrolls, this can indeed be very tough

I suppose shuffling some points around to get at least musicians for the elites is necessary, probably also adding flamebanner on White Lions. The Spears will be taking the mandatory +1M banner to better keep up with the Bus I suppose.

So - do you feel this is a more flexible and stable approach where I have plenty of tools available for various situations? Would you think this is a better candidate for tournament play, considering the scenarios, terrain etc?

EDIT: Refined list suggestions

Life Archmage with Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury - 335
Prince on Barded Elven Steed with Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Dragon Armour, Shield - 281
Nobe BSB with Great Weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dawnstone - 168
Beasts Mage with Annulian Crystal - 140

Characters total: 924

35 Spearelves with Full Command and Banner of Swiftness - 355
12 Archers, musician - 137
12 Archers, musician - 137

Core total: 629

9 Dragon Princes with Full Command and Banner of Sorcery, Ironcurse Icon - 375
15 White Lions with Standard Bearer with Banner of Eternal Flame and Musician - 253
14 Swordmasters with Musician - 216

Special total: 844

1 Great Eagle
1 Great Eagle

Rare total: 100

Army Total: 2497

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group