Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:09 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:16 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Olannon I can't keep up with all these reports!

I haven't had a chance to go through all of them properly but, since you asked for tips on the Lizardmen game, I'll give them before I go on to read the later reports.

You put yourself on the back foot in deployment by forgetting (or refusing) to deploy in such a way that prevented the chameleons skinks from getting around your flank without finding itself in an arc of fire. By bunching all your units together in the centre, you basically surrendered all that open space to these irritating and damaging units and probably didn't make your opponent work all that hard in deploying against you. When you did go into the attack, your units weren't really supporting each other that well. Against Lizards this can be fatal as they're much better at grinding combats than we are. Cxt makes an excellent point about deploying centrally: you lose so much board control and surrender a good deal of the benefits granted by your knights' movement: gaining flanks is obviously harder if you're stood opposite the enemy centre.

Deploying centrally also encourages you to split your forces as Cxt suggested. I noticed in the game against Vamps that you again had your hammers wandering about on both sides while your spears were stuck forward in the centre to be overwhelmed. Much better to keep deploying refused flanks with this army, hammer one half of the enemy, hold with spears (as briefly as possible), turn and hammer the 2nd half. I think you need to work on focussing your forces a bit more and using your infantry to support the cavalry rather than fight independently as a battle-line unit. In principle, an army like yours doesn't want the spears to be in combat without the knights for too long: you can't rely on getting Mindrazor off all the time.

I saw there were some decent victories as well so I'll be looking to see where you went right and wrong and see if there's some sort of discernible pattern in the way your army wins games. I suspect that you'll have an easier time if you focus more on crushing flanks and use units like the archers to throw deployment more and prevent annoying scouts actions. Very enjoyable reports, though, Olannon: it's good to see Shadow working well with the knights and I'll be following the career of your phoenix guard with great interest!

Good stuff.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:54 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Yeah, I can think of a couple of obnoxious ways of declaring the Vortex Shard as well ;) The best one is probably to discard all his power dice and declare the shooting phase has begun ^^

@ Cxt - I might have been able to dominate the left flank and engage his army that way. Interesting opportunity, and probably the best choice given that side of the battlefield. However, I could choose which side to deploy on and as such, should've taken the other one. I believe you are right though, bring up the Hammers both on that flank with PG support and the Spears blocking the middle entrance.

@ Seredain - Yeah I've been busy playing Warhammer and documenting it lately. I don't expect you all to keep up with it at my pace. Still, I appreciate thoughtful input very much and I believe you're spot on in your analysis of the Lizardmen game. I re-read your Lizardmen game a couple of days ago and only then did I realize how brilliant the deployment was. Looking forward to your comments on the other games - the Vampire Counts one in particular (same general who played Lizardmen).

I'll get the revised Vortex Shard list up tonight. No major changes save for making room for the item though ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
I don't necessarily think that the choice of board edge was bad, but with that side, a more defensive strategy could have been useful. You know, as he is VC he must advance. I would have sat back and let him come to you. then, the rocks, rather than eliminating your ability to support your own units, they now split his army in half as his infantry must pick sides of the rocks to pass. This, if nothing else, opens up more support charges for you late in the game than the other side of the board would have allowed. Advancing only your eagles to be annoying and your DPs to come around the flank, you would have had him in a tight spot. He would have split his infantry around each rock (or slow his army to almost a stop).

Likely, this would have resulted in G1 going to the L of the central rock formation, and GG going to the right of it. As the advanced past the rock then, they would need to waste one turn before they prevented combo charges and closed the gap the rock created. Perfect opportunity to jump. Your PG and your SHs could have combo-charged G1 and the spears could have waited and held up GG for a turn, waiting for support from the DPs or the PG after they finish off that combat. Or, worst cast scenario, A1 could have reformed and counter-charged GG to take away his rank bonus and provided a flank, AND a charge bonus to resolution (+5 CR to you) for a few casualties (only 6 could attack the archers, so only 2 wounds taken, likely). That isn't taking into account the possibility of the archers causing a few casualties of their own. G2 would have either been limited by the rock formations and GG unit, or they could have been taken out of the game by shooting/DP flank charge/GE2 annoyance. Just a thought of how you could have taken advantage of the terrain (though I know being stationary isn't your style).

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:04 am
Posts: 414
Location: Norway
@ Curu: Are you going to Arcon this year? I`ll be there with Tomb Kings (it won`t be painted though, booo:P).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:09 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@ jwg20 - the problem with staying back is his Black Coach, his encirclement possibilities (coupled with Vanhels - deadly!) and my lack of proper threats at range. With Life and Dwellers - this might've been a possible strategy, though with his +4PD and mass healing opportunities I doubt it. I do believe the flanking approach is a viable one though: leave the Spearelves on my right flank and use my other 3 combat units to envelop his Western flank. One thing I've learned after I've played this army some games and re-read some of Seredain's battles is that I've got to be able to utilize a flanking manoevre with several units better. I did this against Skaven but have gotten a little paranoid with flank protection. Needless to say - this is something I can improve on.

@ Chayal - no I won't go to Arcon. I don't feel like participating with an unpainted army. Besides, it's 2000 points and I have no experience with that points size in 8th. Most importantly though, I probably need the week-end (all of it) un-occupied. I am very interested in playing games this summer though, are you familiar with the environment in Oslo?

So - the updated list. Aka - how do I free up 65 points?

-Drakemaster (+20 +20)
-Silver Helm Standard Bearer (+16)
-1 Phoenix Guard (+15)
+Phoenix Guard Musician (-6)

= 65!

Archmage, vortex shard
Prince, barded steed, giant blade, helm of fortune, talisman of loec, shield, dragon armour
BSB, barded steed, radiant gem of hoeth, luckstone, shield, dragon armour, lance

35 Spearelves, full command, gleaming pennant
14 Archers, musician
11 Archers, musician

8 Silver Helms, shields, musician, champion
10 Dragon Princes, musician, standard bearer with banner of eternal flame
17 Phoenix Guard, musician, standard bearer with banner of sorcery

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Great Eagles

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:13 pm
Posts: 45
Hi Curu!

Very good reports and great work you do with the compilation.

I'm interested in the use of the vortex shard, it isn't used here in Spain where we use more the book of hoeth or the "etheral" archmage. Hope to see a new report soon.

Reading your reports and seeing how you haven't able to get okkham razor i think you could try book of hoeth, not to try IF on every spells but to use in these combats you specially need it.

Cheers

_________________
PedroGZC painting blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:04 am
Posts: 414
Location: Norway
@ Curu: Yeah, I live in Oslo.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:58 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Today, I faced Daemons. An interesting game - I definitely learned a lot about how they play. Read on for the full report!

:: Denizens of the Warp ::

My new list:

Shadow Archmage, Vortex Shard
Std. Prince
Mounted BSB, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone (True Magic)

35 Spearelves, Gleaming Pennant
14 Archers, musician
11 Archers

17 Phoenix Guard, standard bearer, Banner of Sorcery, musician
8 Silver Helms, champion, musician
10 Dragon Princes, standard bearer, musician, Banner of Eternal Flame

2 Eagles
1 Repeater

His list:

Bloodthirster, dispel scroll, hatred, killing blow, 3+/5++
Khorne Herald, BSB, Stubborn Banner, 1+/5++, Killing Blow, Mount (Juggernaut?)
Tzeentch Herald, Disc, Lore of Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Loremaster

24 Bloodletters, champ
24 Bloodletters, champ
5 Chaos Furies
5 Chaos Furies
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Hounds (Flesh Hounds?)

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I got Steed, Enfeebling, Pendulum, Pit. Great, neither Withering NOR Okkam's. I swapped Steed for Miasma. Naenor rolled a 1 for Shield of Saphery. His caster knew everything from Heavens.

A solid list indeed, but not the worst I've seen. He switches up between Lord of Change and Bloodthirster.

We rolled Meeting Engagement and I had to deploy first. I rolled a '1' for my Phoenix Guard, Spearelves and small Archer unit. Curses, why would all my crucial infantry be off the table like that? I decided to deploy defensively since I couldn't send my cavalry off on its own. He didn't roll a single '1' so got a pretty good deployment. Normally, I would've played more aggressively but I don't think that's a good idea with both infantry units lagging behind.

Image

I got first turn, him failing to roll a '6'. I was worried that I hadn't got my usual deployment advantage (quite the contrary!) and that my spell selection was very poor. Regardless, I was intending to put up a fight!

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I move up cautiously, letting my infantry follow suit. I was hoping to be able to isolate some of his units with my cavalry and engage his blocks later on with combined units. As for the Bloodthirster, I didn't really have a clear plan: I'd try to get my infantry against him for at least a round or two, then come in with charges and maybe finish him off.

Magic is 8 v 4. I try enfeebling on a block but fail on 3D6. I cast the rest at Drain Magic, which is scrolled by his Thirster.

Shooting's a bit better with 3 furies going down and a flamer dying.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 1 ::

Bloodthirster moves up on my flank and furies and flamers advance. His movement is kind of poor with his blocks being boxed in at the time being.

Magic is 5 v 4 and he casts it all at Comet, which I dispel.

Shooting puts 2 wounds on the Eagle, the cover helping out greatly against the Flamers! Truth be told, it didn't matter too much whether it had 1 or 3 wounds for the tasks I had in mind.

Overall, I was happy so far. 1 turn completed and I had a somewhat better position than after deployment, with magic and shooting having done nothing important yet.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

My Dragon Princes are 16" away from his central furies. The beauty here is that I can overrun into the Flamers, with nothing being able to counter-charge me! I figure it's a pretty good shot, it's hard for him to adapt to this situation without exposing his Bloodthirster and surrendering the central control, or his other block of Bloodletters.

Naturally, I roll a '4', '3' and '3' for a miserable failed charge. Bloodthirster coming in against me next turn you say? The Helms charge the other Furies.

Magic sees boosted Miasma on his left-most flamers (I roll a '6'!). I then cast Enfeebling on his Thirster with a very good roll on 4D6. He scrolls it.

Shooting kills a Flamer.

Combat sees my Cavalry decimate his Furies and I reform to face the middle. Tough call turning away from the Thirster, but I decided I had to keep the pressure up against his Flamers.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 2 ::

Bloodthirster charges Dragon Princes. Hounds charge my blocking Eagle. Blocks move up, Flamers trying to get out of the way. His Furies cover my Phoenix Guard, angling so that an overrun is impossible (as it stands currently).

Magic is 8 v 4. He starts with an IF Comet (see the black mark for placement). He loses a single D6 with the miscast and I dispel the rest.

Shooting kills a couple of Silver Helms, his Flamers cursing Miasma for limiting their potential.

Combat - Thirster kills 4 Dragon Princes, lose 1 wound due to dangerous terrain test. I hold on Steadfast and combat reform. I wasn't thinking clearly as I didn't ensure this reform would allow my Phoenix Guard to overrun properly.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

My Helms charge his central Flamers, since various angles etc mean no blocks can counter-charge me. Also, if I could win big enough and crumble them in 2 turns, I could reform to face his Thirster in my Turn 4! Phoenix Guard charge the Furies, the Spearelves move up to receive a pursuing Thirster. The remaining Eagle move to take care of the last angle to leave my cavalry alone.

Magic sees him dispel Enfeebling on the Thirster and I get a poor Miasma (-1) off on his Flamers again. Comet does not arrive.

Shooting does nothing, his 5+ saves proving too hard to get by.

Combat - my Dragon Princes are all killed save for 2, which flee (the Banner auto-dies). The Thirster catches them but overruns into Spearelves. The Phoenix Guard kill the Furies. I reformed the Phoenix Guard to face his Thirster. The Helms lose a couple to stand and shoot but the cavalry kill off 3 Flamers in melee. The unit is now down to the Helms Champion and the characters. He would've lost more but had a stubborn banner on his Herald which saved a lot of them from crumbling.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 3 ::

His Bloodletters charge my Eagle, his Herald charges my Cavalry from out of his block. Winds of magic are 3-3 and I choose to use Vortex as I can't afford any more advantages from him at the moment. Comet does not arrive. Shooting kills some Archers. His Hounds charge my Phoenix Guard.

In combat, my Spearelves' Champion challenge him and is promptly stomped to death. I pass my steadfast test. His Herald challenges and reveals Obsidian Armour. My Prince accepted but had activated Loec. I manage 3 wounds with Loec and he has a 1+ save to make. He fails 1, and re-rolls the other 2, failing another! He then rolls for 5+ ward, making 1. He must re-roll that one as well, and fails! Lucky catch for me ;) The Flamers die to the rest of the attacks and combat resolution, sorely missing their banner. I reform to face his Thirster. This reform however means I am just barely clipping the edge of his Bloodletters which proceed to kill the Eagle and overrun to catch my Cavalry. Ouch, poor reform: I should've turned against the Herald instead. Phoenix Guard shake off the worst of the Hounds and reform to face them.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Virtually no movement to speak of.

Magic sees me get -2S on his Thirster and Shield on the Spears. I figured it would help them more than the Cavalry since I considered them doomed anyways. Comet AGAIN does not arrive.

Shooting again doesn't do too much and we're off to combat. The Cavalry kill off a handful of Bloodletters before he shows me an amazing amount of Killing Blows, leaving no elf alive. The Phoenix Guard put up a way better display as they kill off all the Hounds and reform to face the centre. The Spearelves manage to put a wound on his Thirster and lose a few in return, though the Shield & Enfeebling saved quite a few of them.

Image

:: Daemons Turn 4 ::

His Bloodletters both declare charges: one against the Spearelves, the other against the Phoenix Guard. Magic sees him get off Harmonic Convergence. Now, he claimed this spell allows re-roll for every failed to-hit and to-wound roll, while only failed armour saves rolls of a '1' could be re-rolled. He said that he'd seen it FAQ'd. In my opinion, this sounded pretty insane but I didn't have a good argument against it so that's how we played it. Comet still did not arrive...

Shooting saw his Flamers, with the aid of Harmonic Convergence, bring down a lot of Archers from Olannon's unit, downing them to only 3 left. They passed their panic test.

Combat saw my Spearelves down to 21 models, though they put another wound on the Thirster (he now had 2 left) and managed to combat reform (Steadfast!) to face the Bloodletters. In hindsight, I should've prayed for them to kill the Thirster instead. The Phoenix Guard hold their own against the Bloodletters, with a good display of 4+ rolling on my behalf.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

Olannon moves behind the hill to obtain hard cover against his Flamers. Magic does nothing useful as I try to pit his Herald but he passes his I test. Shooting takes down another Flamer, bringing them to only 2 remaining models. Comet still does not arrive, and the amount of Markers is growing pretty large.

Combat sees my Spearelves lose badly and run. The Thirster pursues them off the table with the Bloodletters reforming to face Phoenix Guard. The Wardens of Asuryan manage to win against the Letters in the meantime, and it looks like they'll all die in a turn or two if the rolls are roughly average. I'm still impressed by this unit!

Image

:: Daemons Turn 5 ::

Bloodletters charge Phoenix Guard. In the magic phase he tries to cast Chain Lightning on Olannon but I dispel it barely. The Comet arrives finally and it's quite devastating: his Bloodletters each lose a lot, leaving the smaller one at only 6 models. My Phoenix Guard lose 5 and they're down to 7 left. His Herald dies but his Thirster is off the table - lucky for him! With 2 wounds left and all those markers, he probably would've died and cost him the game.

Shooting sees his 2 Flamers target Olannon but they only manage a single wound due to hard cover.

In combat I kill off 3 Bloodletters, leaving only 3 alive. I lose 3 in return and break, though they're not run down.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

I rally the Phoenix Guard. Magic sees me try to Pit and Pendulum him to death but his 3 remaining Bloodletters just won't die. Shooting kills the last 2 Flamers (3 wounds). He says that he won't charge my Phoenix Guard so the game's over!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

The remaining points on the table were roughly 1200 to 1050 in his favour. However, due to banners and Saerith being dead, he was comfortably ahead. Sadly enough, a loss for the High Elves

:: Evaluation ::

The mission hurt me, the 1's hurt me, the magic selection hurt me. While I'm pretty sure my movement wasn't optimal, I had such a big disadvantage from the get-go that everything I tried to accomplish felt impossible. I caught a couple of breaks when Saerith killed his Herald and the Spears put a couple of wounds on his Thirster, but also made a couple of bad mistakes (Dragon Princes combat reform and Silver Helms combat reform having defeated the Flamers).

The Vortex Shard was, in this game, probably not the best item. With Silver Wand I would've almost certainly got Okkam's which would've altered the game drastically. However, being able to shut him down when I needed to was a big asset and I suppose it can be put to good use. Most of the time, a level 4's spell selection and the Lore of Shadows is enough for a really strong magic phase so this is probably the worst I could ever get.

Phoenix Guard really impressed me again. The Spearelves also did very well here. With Withering and/or Okkam's it would've been a lot better, too.

For now, I haven't analyzed my decisions thoroughly so comments regarding this is most welcome. How would you deploy given the two 1's? What do you think of my movement, placement, choice of battles etc?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
I think you did pretty well but the poor reforms you mentioned really cost you in terms of getting involved in 2 on 1s in his favour/taking combats you didn't want. I tend to find that stuff like this really costs you against a decent opponent (same happened to me v. Ogres). Like you said the magic phase you had didn't help along with getting off to a bad start. I also have not found the FAQ for Harmonic Convergence. Not sure where that's from. Anyone else?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:31 am 
Offline
Centurion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Posts: 3298
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hey Curu

Well from page 1 right to page 6 you've provided a tonne of detailed reports and analysis of the lists and post comments which is fantastic. It's taken me all morning on and off to read it but thanks for taking the time and documenting all of this because I know how long it takes so take it from me, I appreciate everything you're doing.

That was a tough loss against the Daemons, sure the vortex shard wasn't the optimal choice and I believe the Silver wand is the premiere choice for a shadowmage without a doubt.

One thing I noticed in your report that raises a question, when your Prince used the talisman of loec you noted that the daemon player re-rolled his ward saves, I was under the impression it was only armour saves? Can you clarify for me?

I'm glad you like the Phoenix Guard, I'm a huge fan of them and even though they're carrying the banner of sorcery I absolutely love running them with the banner of discipline just for the Strength 10 attacks when mindrazor goes off, situational I know but it does happen occasionally.

I look forward to watching the evolution continue and reading about more battles.

_________________
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:06 pm
Posts: 31
Fantastic battle report, thanks for sharing. It looked like a close match, and HE's don;t have alot to go up against the Thirster, a shame your Spears fled...How did you rate the performance of the RBT?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:38 am
Posts: 727
Location: Burbank, CA
Jimmy wrote:
One thing I noticed in your report that raises a question, when your Prince used the talisman of loec you noted that the daemon player re-rolled his ward saves, I was under the impression it was only armour saves? Can you clarify for me?


Re-read the item description. It says you must re-roll saves of any kind. This includes armor saves, ward saves and I believe even regeneration saves.

As for the Harmonic Convergence claim - absolutely not. There is no FAQ regarding it and the only reason I could possibly see is that the way it is worded, it could be interpreted to mean all hits and wounds, as well as armor saves of 1. Certainly not the way it is intended though. Unfortunately, Curse of the Midnight wind - which is pretty much the offensive version of Harmonic Convergence is worded in such a way that it actually strengthens the (false) Harmonic Convergence claim your opponent made. When in doubt ask to see the rules, if he can't produce them ask someone else, if that doesn't work roll for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:15 am 
Offline
Centurion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:55 am
Posts: 3298
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thanks for the clarification RogueSun, appreciate it.

:D

_________________
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

X-wing Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:31 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
John Rainbow wrote:
I think you did pretty well but the poor reforms you mentioned really cost you in terms of getting involved in 2 on 1s in his favour/taking combats you didn't want. I tend to find that stuff like this really costs you against a decent opponent (same happened to me v. Ogres). Like you said the magic phase you had didn't help along with getting off to a bad start. I also have not found the FAQ for Harmonic Convergence. Not sure where that's from. Anyone else?


Yes, a couple of poor reforms definitely didn't help. Had I been able to kill the Thirster... Then again, it would've been hard. I would've charged with Saerith and Naenor, resulting in a challenge. Naenor would've accepted to get benefits from the Lance. The next turn around, Saerith would've been in the challenge but his I is so high that I would've needed Miasma to get re-rolls to hit. Loec was gone because of his Herald. One thing's for sure - they did precious little against the Bloodletters. Same thing applied to my Dragon Princes' combat reform - I could've applied more pressure here earlier on.

Jimmy wrote:
One thing I noticed in your report that raises a question, when your Prince used the talisman of loec you noted that the daemon player re-rolled his ward saves, I was under the impression it was only armour saves? Can you clarify for me?

I'm glad you like the Phoenix Guard, I'm a huge fan of them and even though they're carrying the banner of sorcery I absolutely love running them with the banner of discipline just for the Strength 10 attacks when mindrazor goes off, situational I know but it does happen occasionally.

I look forward to watching the evolution continue and reading about more battles.


Loec has been clarified by RogueSun, many thanks! It is indeed a very powerful item. Phoenix Guard have indeed impressed me very much! So far, I've been unable to properly Shadow buff them to their true potential. A fetish for dispel scrolls, poor winds and poor spell selection have been in my way. Still, they've performed very well!

micheleantonio wrote:
Fantastic battle report, thanks for sharing. It looked like a close match, and HE's don;t have alot to go up against the Thirster, a shame your Spears fled...How did you rate the performance of the RBT?


Normally, my army has plenty of options for the Thirster. The problem here was that I didn't get either Withering or Okkam's and I spent Loec on his Herald while my RBT was out of Line of Sight. The Spears fled because they were only like 7 or so in that final combat. Up until that point they performed admirably, couldn't ask for more. The RBT in this game took out a flamer wound every now and then. Because of their lack of armour save and a 5+ ward the Archers were more effective, but this was also due to placement. In hindsight, I should've put the RBT on the hill instead of the Archmage and his bunker.

As for Harmonic Convergence - I'm now positive he was wrong about this spell. Luckily, it didn't impact the game too much as he only got it off once and at this point most combats were pretty much decided.

Vortex Shard... It definitely cost me a lot of potential in this game not to have Silver Wand. I do, however, believe that in the long run it's a very useful item. With a level 4 I have a 90% chance of getting a particular spell. That means I'll only lack Okkam's when I need it 1 out of 10 games. Most of the time, my army has answers to everything regardless and the other spells in Shadow usually combine to make a nice magic phase. Also, against certain armies and in a lot of situations the Shard can really ruin an opponent's plans. The selection I got this game was the worst possible one I can get - and even then I got something out of it a lot of the time. High Magic was useful - for a change. The only problem is that Shield is somewhat circumstantial, I can't seem to use it properly just yet. With the Shard, I might consider other lores. Heavens in particular seems interesting, though I'm tempted to go back to Beasts also (imagine that in this game!).

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 848
from his deployment it was fairly obvious reading the report that your right flank was always going to get hammered. with that in mind, i feel you could have brought some of your reinforcements in further on the right flank, using the small building to block early charges. this would have let you set up flank/rear charges on his advance or broken his encirclement manoeuvre and relieved some pressure on your central cavalry units.

_________________
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 848
you could also use your rgoh noble with shadow. in theory it could help reduce chances of not getting the right spells on your AM?

_________________
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:59 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
Magic: I got Steed, Enfeebling, Pendulum, Pit. Great, neither Withering NOR Okkam's.
And that is why the Vortex Shard is not such a good choice! I had not thought of this before, but if you really want Vortex Shard, take Shadow on the Noble wizard as well. If you miss a spell with the Archmage, the noble will get it. If you get all the good spells, double Miasma is pretty cool.

On his side, I am very surprised to see a Daemon with 12 Flamers and 10 Furies takes Heavens. He has plenty of ranged damage and plenty of ability to take out war machines. He doesn't need Comet. He also has lots of combat power and grinding ability, so Comet can be a disadvantage, as it was here. And Heavens is one of the worst lores overall.

Curu Olannon wrote:
We rolled Meeting Engagement and I had to deploy first. I rolled a '1' for my Phoenix Guard, Spearelves and small Archer unit. .... He didn't roll a single '1' so got a pretty good deployment.
That is why I hate the scenario. I think it is an awful concept that one player STARTS THE GAME with the major advantage because of a couple dice rolls. It seems like the majority of detailed battle reports that follow this scenario start with one playing gaining a major advantage from those dice rolls.

Although then you rolled really good to drop 3 Furies and a Flamer on turn 1.

Why would he scroll Drain Magic, especially on turn 1? Even if all he wants is Comet (what he cast), taking 12+ to 15+ does very little. If trying for powered up Comet, he effectively needs double 6s anyway.

I don't understand why he is having trouble moving his blocks around his furies and flamers. With 12" march moves and skirmish, the Flamers can get out of the way really easily. You drew the diagrams as if they were deployed 6 wide, but there is no reason to make them other than 3x2.


How could you have combat reformed the DPs to allow the PG to overrun into the Thirster? 2-wide facing the Thirster?

You say your spearelves reformed to face the Bloodletters on turn 4. But weren't you were engaged on one side by the Bloodthirster and the other by the Bloodletters? You cannot combat reform if engaged on two sides.

On Haromonic Convergence, I think it is bad practice to accept someone's assertion about a strange FAQ. On an unclear rule, I would accept a claim that a FAQ clarifies it, but I don't see the Harmonic Convergence as unclear. Yes, RogueSun is right that is possible to interpret the wording his way, but it is clearly a stretch. Unless you know he is almost always correct about such things, make him to pull out the FAQ and show you.



Overall, I think I would have brought my troops in further west with the goal of leaving his B2 unit too far away to matter, and letting you concentrate on something else.
But I would have run things differently on his side as well - basically using the Bloodthirster to guard the Flamers, and letting them shoot you up. I would not have sent the Bloodthirster around the flank like he did turn 1, but have put the big guy more in the middle, just out of arc from your Prince. Or I would send the Bloodthirster, plus both fury units, after your Archmage. I think you used your Eagles much better than he used his Furies.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
I had a hard time working out what the problem with his interpretation of Harmonic Convergence was, until I went back and re-read the post... he thought it meant to say to re-roll all rolls to hit and wound? Haha! Shoulda just told him "See there, it says to re-roll hits and wounds, regardless of whether they're failed or not!" if he wouldn't show you the FAQ.

On the other hand, you said the Phoenix Guard were down to 7 models, then lost 3 more before breaking (and the Standard Bearer, presumably), in which case they would have needed insane courage to rally, and I'm sure you'd have commented on such a fortuitous dice roll! So at least if mistakes were made, they balanced out in the end :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:12 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Csjarrat wrote:
from his deployment it was fairly obvious reading the report that your right flank was always going to get hammered. with that in mind, i feel you could have brought some of your reinforcements in further on the right flank, using the small building to block early charges. this would have let you set up flank/rear charges on his advance or broken his encirclement manoeuvre and relieved some pressure on your central cavalry units.


By bringing infantry in further East I would've opened up my rear to his Thirster, leaving the Archmage, Archers and Repeater very, very vulnerable. The fact that he's flying makes a huge difference. I also lose Steadfast in a forest.

dabber wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Magic: I got Steed, Enfeebling, Pendulum, Pit. Great, neither Withering NOR Okkam's.
And that is why the Vortex Shard is not such a good choice! I had not thought of this before, but if you really want Vortex Shard, take Shadow on the Noble wizard as well. If you miss a spell with the Archmage, the noble will get it. If you get all the good spells, double Miasma is pretty cool.


This is what I'm thinking, too. I'm going to need having the Noble around in the same lore to ensure better spell selection. As you noted, double Miasma is pretty good, too.

dabber wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
We rolled Meeting Engagement and I had to deploy first. I rolled a '1' for my Phoenix Guard, Spearelves and small Archer unit. .... He didn't roll a single '1' so got a pretty good deployment.
That is why I hate the scenario. I think it is an awful concept that one player STARTS THE GAME with the major advantage because of a couple dice rolls. It seems like the majority of detailed battle reports that follow this scenario start with one playing gaining a major advantage from those dice rolls.


With the implications of drops, deployment and +1 to start, I believe this scenario ruins a lot for a lot of players. The same goes for Dawn Attack. My army struggles a lot with these as I lose a lot of the advantages I otherwise have, which is part of what the army list design is about.

dabber wrote:
Why would he scroll Drain Magic, especially on turn 1? Even if all he wants is Comet (what he cast), taking 12+ to 15+ does very little. If trying for powered up Comet, he effectively needs double 6s anyway.


I suppose it had to do with his interpretation of Harmonic Convergence.

dabber wrote:
How could you have combat reformed the DPs to allow the PG to overrun into the Thirster? 2-wide facing the Thirster?


He was in my flank so only in combat against 2. I could've reformed to have 3 in contact with him, with the bases aligned towards the Phoenix Guard.

dabber wrote:
You say your spearelves reformed to face the Bloodletters on turn 4. But weren't you were engaged on one side by the Bloodthirster and the other by the Bloodletters? You cannot combat reform if engaged on two sides.


Are you sure about this? I can't remember having seen it anywhere.

dabber wrote:
On Haromonic Convergence, I think it is bad practice to accept someone's assertion about a strange FAQ. On an unclear rule, I would accept a claim that a FAQ clarifies it, but I don't see the Harmonic Convergence as unclear. Yes, RogueSun is right that is possible to interpret the wording his way, but it is clearly a stretch. Unless you know he is almost always correct about such things, make him to pull out the FAQ and show you.


In our club people don't try and cheat their way to victory. If someone claims something his word is mostly enough. He looked up his source afterwards which turned out to be an old and odd ruling for a random tournament. Regardless, it didn't impact the game too much.

dabber wrote:
Overall, I think I would have brought my troops in further west with the goal of leaving his B2 unit too far away to matter, and letting you concentrate on something else.
But I would have run things differently on his side as well - basically using the Bloodthirster to guard the Flamers, and letting them shoot you up. I would not have sent the Bloodthirster around the flank like he did turn 1, but have put the big guy more in the middle, just out of arc from your Prince. Or I would send the Bloodthirster, plus both fury units, after your Archmage. I think you used your Eagles much better than he used his Furies.


Yeah, west would've been an option to try and draw him away. It just felt so impossible to manoevre properly with the Spearelves and Phoenix Guard falling so far behind.

Stormie wrote:
On the other hand, you said the Phoenix Guard were down to 7 models, then lost 3 more before breaking (and the Standard Bearer, presumably), in which case they would have needed insane courage to rally, and I'm sure you'd have commented on such a fortuitous dice roll! So at least if mistakes were made, they balanced out in the end :)


Yes, we simply both forgot about this. The Phoenix Guard would've indeed run off the table! They were 7, lost 3 + Bearer and thus were only 3 left - way below 25%.

As several of you have suggested I think I'll try Shadow with the Noble to better my spell selection. How do you roll though? Do you start with the Archmage or the BSB?

I just realized I just finished my 10th game with this army. Although minor changes have been made throughout these games, the army's essentially the same. I feel this is a good time for a proper reflection upon the various units, the army as a whole and its overall potential. I'll need some time to put my thoughts down properly. Rest assured, I have discovered and learned a lot about how it plays, its strengths and weaknesses and hopefully, how I can make a really strong list out of this basis. Stay tuned, I'll try and get the post up before I go to bed tonight ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:23 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
Curu Olannon wrote:
dabber wrote:
You say your spearelves reformed to face the Bloodletters on turn 4. But weren't you were engaged on one side by the Bloodthirster and the other by the Bloodletters? You cannot combat reform if engaged on two sides.
Are you sure about this? I can't remember having seen it anywhere.
Bottom right of page 55.

Curu Olannon wrote:
As several of you have suggested I think I'll try Shadow with the Noble to better my spell selection. How do you roll though? Do you start with the Archmage or the BSB?
You have to do the Archmage first. You generally want the Noble to have Miasma. Yes that risks having an important spell stuck with just +1, but you will still have the important spell, and that is the gain you are after. The point is that if the Archmage rolls well the Noble is useful with Miasma, but if the Noble rolls first and rolls junk, he cannot default to Miasma without negating the purpose of his taking Shadow.


Last edited by dabber on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:18 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
:: Army Evaluation ::

I've played my first 10 games at 2500 points with this army now. Granted, there's been a few changes and my opponents have been of varying skill level. Regardless, I feel it's time for a little evaluation. The record so far is 7 wins, 1 tie and 2 losses. Not too bad considering I only have a couple of games before in 8th before I started using this army at 2500 points.

Most of you who follow this thread will probably not be surprised by anything here. Regardless, sometimes it's good to take the time and write down your thoughts. At the very least, you can review them later on and remember your own reasoning.

So - I'll start with looking at all the elements individually. I will then address synergy and army design issues. Lastly, I will share my thoughts about how I believe High Elves can play competitively.

:: Individual Elements ::

Archmage: As predicted, somewhat random. The nature of magic means that this will always be the case. I've done what I can to mitigate it by including a second mage and the Banner of Sorcery. Most of the time though, he's easily worth his cost. He's probably the last choice I'd part with, not necessarily because he's been the most essential to me, but because I don't think High Elf armies can work as well without a level 4 Wizard.
  • Best game: Vs Kholek: constantly healing Saerith and Naenor, getting Dwellers off on the Marauder horde, providing Flesh to Stone and Regrowth as needed.
  • Worst game: Vs Warriors of Chaos / Ogre Kingdoms where he disappeared Turn 1.
  • Overall performance: 9/10

Prince: Reliable, fairly cheap, provides something I couldn't get otherwise. The only downside is the cost associated with running him. The Silver Helms do cost quite a few points but rarely achieve anything save for getting this bad guy into combat.
  • Best game: Vs Kholek: Defeating Trolls and Marauders and sealing the victory with Talisman of Loec when Throgg charged him.
  • Worst game: Vs Vampire Counts: Accomplished next to nothing.
  • Overall performance: 9/10

BSB: The standard build on foot with Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone and Great Weapon is simply amazing. The mounted BSB haven't, as of yet, been this instrumental but I regard him more as insurance than a cornerstone now. The Spears are equally deadly with Okkam's with or without him and have performed very well on their own as well. The re-rolls he provides are so insanely crucial it's not even funny. Combined with my natural high leadership across the board, I rarely encounter panic etc.
  • Best game: Vs Wood Elves: Helping to kill the Dryads and finishing off the Lord Mage was crucial to the massacre. The re-rolls were sorely needed as I rolled a few 11's and 12's with my Silver Helms and Saerith for Fear tests etc.
  • Worst game: Vs Vampire Counts: horrible deployment and poor play meant he didn't do much useful.
  • Overall performance: 9/10

Archers: I find these way overpriced for what they do. That being said, I wouldn't leave without them as I need to be able to hurt stuff a little bit at range as well. The option is taking 2 blocks of Spears. While certainly dangerous, this leaves me with precious little options with regards to dealing with annoying things, thinning out numbers where needed and providing a bunker for my Archmage.
  • Best game: Vs Skaven: taking out weapon teams, providing Olannon with a nice firebase, defeating a unit of 30 Clanrats straight up.
  • Worst game: Vs Lizardmen.
  • Overall performance: 6/10

Spears: This unit has pretty good potential. Most of the time, they don't do anything fancy on their own, but provide a nice and solid block which reliably gives me something to use my hittier units around. With Okkam's, they're a constant threat.
  • Best game: Vs Wood Elves: pretty much single-handedly won me the game, heavily assisted by the Archmage.
  • Worst game: Vs Vampire Counts.
  • Overall performance: 7/10

Elite Infantry: The Swordmasters are very chop-choppy, but against the tougher armies they struggled to get where I needed them to make a difference. Carrying the Banner of Sorcery makes them an absolute primary target, which my opponents have exploited time and again. The Phoenix Guard have seriously impressed me. Most games I haven't been able to magically assist them as I pleased, but regardless they've been one of my best units.
  • Best game: Vs Ogre Kingdoms: the central Swordmasters dished out a world of hurt and didn't die before he had lost too much. For Phoenix Guard: Vs Wood Elves: defeating Treekin and threatening his Archers, BSB and Lord Mage was crucial to my success.
  • Worst game: Vs Lizardmen.
  • Overall performance: 8/10

Silver Helms: The Silver Helms have actually disappointed me. I would've thought the difference between them and Dragon Princes would be less than I've experienced it to be. The extra WS, I, A and LD is often missed. Now that I'm running the BSB mounted, upgrading them to Dragon Princes would only grant +3 attacks (assuming I keep the champion, that is). I can't really seem to justify spending 50 more points to get +3 attacks though.
  • Best game: Vs Lizardmen: keeping the central combat running, the Prince safe and standing tall at the end of the game allowed me to Draw.
  • Worst game: Vs Vampire Counts. My inability to make proper use of the terrain meant that the Silver Helms pretty much just sat there behind my lines for far too long.
  • Overall performance: 6/10

Dragon Princes: They hit very hard, but they're also quite expensive. Now that I've removed the Drakemaster that shaves off 40 points (quite a bit!). Their real strength lies in their ability to combo-charge and hunt down regenthings.
  • Best game: Vs Skaven: Taking out the Abomination in one turn and then receiving and eventually winning against a full unit of Clanrats.
  • Worst game: Vs Daemons: their failed charge meant they couldn't do anything useful what-so-ever.
  • Overall performance: 8/10

Repeater: I don't know what to say about this little thingy. Some games, it works wonders. Others, not so much. Most games it does a bit here and there but nothing vital.
  • Best game: Vs Skaven: helping to take out weapon teams and thinning the Clanrats to a manageable size saved me a lot of headaches.
  • Worst game: Vs Lizardmen.
  • Overall performance: 5/10

Great Eagles: Simply put, wonderful. Their possibilities are endless and I feel like I'm really getting a lot out of these 100 points. They never disappoint!
  • Best game: Vs Warriors of Chaos: charging his Sorceror Lord and disabling his Horde to help him out when needed was very crucial to my victory.
  • Worst game: Vs Skaven: they practically did nothing but I didn't need them either given his tight deployment and everything else going rather well.
  • Overall performance: 10/10

As usual, I'd like to hear your thoughts as well about this evaluation. Do you agree with my assessments?


:: Synergy and Army Design Issues::

I feel that the list synergizes very well with Shadows. In a hard environment, I do not believe cavalry lists can work with Life. This is simply because the units are too small and tougher armies can obliterate one element at a time - at will - rendering Life too weak. As I've discussed before, Life is also easy to prioritize against. I'm not saying Life is bad, I just don't think it can work with these kind of lists. I know Seredain probably disagrees with me on this particular point, but in my opinion he has yet to face really hard lists from really good opponents.

While on the subject of magic, I haven't been able to get the effect I was hoping for when I decided to go with Shadows. The abundance of dispel scrolls means that crucial spells are often shut down. That being said, I find that Miasma, Enfeebling and Withering are far more powerful and frequently go through than I thought. This is the real strength of the Lore - not Okkam's. Without these spells, prioritizing would be easy and the Lore would be much worse. Pit also adds to this, of course, though I have yet to play against the lists where it's a real threat (dual-Hydra Dark Elves, Kholek, Tomb Kings...).

The units work very well together and I'm frequently able to use them in tandem to destroy tough targets. I was afraid I was lacking damage output when I first designed this list (even with Swordmasters) but this has yet to prove to be a problem. I also feel that I have just the amount of support that I need between the Archers, the Repeater and the Eagles for my main units to accomplish what they're looking to do. According to my own principles of redundancy, I believe my list copes well with most kinds of losses: I've started games with losing half the Spearelves, almost all the Swordmasters, the Dragon Princes and even the Archmage and managed to win.

Looking at what I can do from here, I'm not sure yet. I'm curious how this list plays without the Repeater. First of all though, is the Vortex Shard tryout. Against most tough lists (Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos) a single magic phase can make or break the game. The ability to really ruin this combined with my fast and hard-hitting units is something I believe is easily worth the cost. I'm also unsure of whether I believe having all this cavalry is the way to go. The Prince performs admirably but the Helms seem overpriced. The Dragon Princes have very good damage output but are too often easy to neutralize. Against tougher lists I haven't yet been able to use the cavalry as I please, due to a number of reasons. As such, I'm not sure if I'll stick to it or switch to a more traditional infantry-based list.


:: High Elves in a Competitive Environment ::

Obviously, Teclis is a no-brainer and our most powerful choice. The Book of Hoeth is a close second. These choices have 2 things in common: they have a tendency to be banned and they tend to lose you friends. Leaving them aside, let's look at what other options we have:

Shadow/Life Archmage & heavy infantry with optional support from Dragon Princes. Typically these lists feature 14-21 strong units of Swordmasters and White Lions. Occasionally they have an anvil of Phoenix Guard. These builds are tried and tested and are probably the most obvious choice.

Shadow Archmage & Phoenix Guard heavy. I know that some time ago, a member of this forum featured 2 relatively big units of Phoenix Guard backed by a Shadow Archmage. I can really see this working and it's an untraditional build which is probably fun to play. What's that? Durable High Elves? Equip a combat Prince with stuff and a BSB with standard kit and you're not even that reliant on magic to deal damage! Banner of Sorcery in one, Flame Banner or Razor Standard in the other.

Light Archmage & White Lions heavy. This is RogueSun's usual build and one I believe has extreme potential. White Lions are probably the elites we have that benefit the most from Lore of Light. This list also has the option of adapting the Coven strategy for Banishment spam as well.

Shadow Archmage & Core heavy. A recent build consisted of NO special units what-so-ever, 3 units of Spears and 3 units of Archers, backed by 4 Repeaters and 4 Eagles. It did really well in a rather tough tourney, finishing 6th overall out of ~100. This is way better than average High Elf placements, as far as I know. I do believe this list relies too heavily upon Book of Hoeth though, as S3 isn't going to do too much unless magically assisted.

Now, as for our famous cavalry builds. Can they work? I don't know. I believe and hope so, but there are a lot of obstacles. The most annoying thing I've faced lately is the inability to charge as I want. Let's take a look at some typical builds:
- Daemons often have Siren Song to draw you out, losing you the charge. Bloodthirsters are fairly frequently seen as well, and flying beats your cavalry's mobility.
- Vampire Counts can Vanhels you to death.
- Lizardmen can provide a screen of expendable units, angling or fleeing to deny the perfect charges
- Wood Elves and other shooty lists can simply advance to a point where you either have to move within their probable charge range or stand beyond it. If you choose the latter, they can simply shuffle back 3", obtaining status quo.

I'm hoping that we can face really tough lists and emerge victorious, or at the very least put up a good fight. While High Elves are not top-tier anymore, we have some trusted builds which frequently place quite well. If Cavalry oriented lists are to have their place among accepted competitive builds, we need to prove their viability. Though I already have my doubts and fears about their limitations, I'm not going to give up on the approach until I've exhausted all the viable options I can think of.

As I said, I don't know how this summer's going to be gaming-wise. My Daemon player opponent from yesterday is apparantly going to stay close-ish to where I'll be living this summer and hopefully Chayal and some others can fill me in on the opportunities in the area. It probably won't be the 3-4 games per week frequency which I've had recently, but I should be able to get a game every now and then :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Solid analysis and I can't really fault it (It being 1 am won't help my judgement though).

Have you considered moving the BSB back to the spears, and fielding two units of Dragon Princes? That makes two threats to deal with for the opposition. I don't really consider silver helms much of a threat without characters.

I strongly believe in the principles of redundancy, which you have achieved very well in this army. One common theme I see across armies are that units are either to big to shoot/break easily, or they're small but so hard and/or fast that trying to shoot/charge them is futile. When such an army is set up together it's pretty hard to figure out where to begin. There's no obvious place to start if you want to tear the army apart.

In your army swordmasters and archers are the obvious targets. I still think you need archers for the reasons you mentioned, but phoenix guard is probably your best bet as elite infantry in this army.

As for different builds, I'd be interested in seeing you using a Phoenix guard themed army.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Hey Curu,

And a hard fought, well earned 7 victories they were! What I love about your list is that regardless of the outcome, the battle itself is always gripping!

I'll try to give my thoughts on your analysis, but I fear that I might peter out half way through, so this might be a two post response :P

Quote:
Archmage: As predicted, somewhat random. The nature of magic means that this will always be the case.


I agree about the randomness. I do, however, believe that with our arcane items, you have the opportunity to decide which you want to be more random: Offense or defense. Seeing as you only have one arcane slot in your list, you have to choose between them. Silver wand gives you offensive predictability; you have a guaranteed chance of getting at least one of the crux shadow spells that you need to augment your offensive capabilities.

Then there is the Vortex Shard, which gives you a much more predictable magic defense; choose the turn which you are going to mount your offensive, and eliminate your opponent's chances to manipulate it through magic.

I think it really comes down to which one you weight higher in importance. In my opinion getting the tools you need to take down your enemy is more important than hindering your opponent. Your list is extremely offensive and fast, and I think the daemons game really showed what happens when you a) don't get the required tools to pull off your plan (spells) and b) don't get to be fast due to scenario rules. The wand also has the fringe benefit of being much cheaper in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, the Vortex Shard is a *very* interesting idea, however in the long run I see you running into lots more situations where you wish you had *that* spell.

Quote:
Reliable, fairly cheap, provides something I couldn't get otherwise. The only downside is the cost associated with running him. The Silver Helms do cost quite a few points but rarely achieve anything save for getting this bad guy into combat.


Nothing saying he has to be in a unit of helms! The Dragon Princes suffer when they have two or more characters in the unit, but if it's just the prince in there, you're only sacrificing two S5 attacks to get 4 S7 ones. If you have two mounted characters and two units of princes, put one in each and I'd say you're fine. It'd be tough finding the points for that, however. But it is something to think about.

Quote:
The standard build on foot with Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone and Great Weapon is simply amazing. The mounted BSB haven't, as of yet, been this instrumental but I regard him more as insurance than a cornerstone now. The Spears are equally deadly with Okkam's with or without him and have performed very well on their own as well. The re-rolls he provides are so insanely crucial it's not even funny. Combined with my natural high leadership across the board, I rarely encounter panic etc.


This is my main concern with mounting the BSB - to use the movement effectively, that reroll bubble is usually only applying to that cavalry unit. The Gleaming Pendant helps, definitely, but I've tried games with no BSB this edition and man, did I ever wish I'd brought one. Fear tests, panic tests, break tests... they all add up!

Have you thought about putting him in the Phoenix Guard? With him in there, that unit turns into a scary unit on it's own, let alone with with the shadow buffs!

Quote:
Archers: I find these way overpriced for what they do. That being said, I wouldn't leave without them as I need to be able to hurt stuff a little bit at range as well. The option is taking 2 blocks of Spears. While certainly dangerous, this leaves me with precious little options with regards to dealing with annoying things, thinning out numbers where needed and providing a bunker for my Archmage.


You nailed it. Overpriced, and I hate them, but they're a necessary evil. Without them, we'd be overrun by skirmishers, fast cavalry, fliers and birds. At least I assume they're shooting at birds most of the time, based on how much mine seem to hit.

Quote:
Spears: This unit has pretty good potential. Most of the time, they don't do anything fancy on their own, but provide a nice and solid block which reliably gives me something to use my hittier units around. With Okkam's, they're a constant threat.


These guys are also one of your only ways to break steadfast early. Don't forget that one! I'd give them one more point, just on that basis alone.

Quote:
Elite Infantry: The Swordmasters are very chop-choppy, but against the tougher armies they struggled to get where I needed them to make a difference. Carrying the Banner of Sorcery makes them an absolute primary target, which my opponents have exploited time and again. The Phoenix Guard have seriously impressed me. Most games I haven't been able to magically assist them as I pleased, but regardless they've been one of my best units.


I really have a soft spot for those Phoenix Guard. They provide such a strong foundation - 4+ ward, Fear, High Initiative and Leadership. Our elite infantry is one of the main draws to me for this army. The versatility of each one of them (I know you hate the lions :P) is so great that I constantly find myself in new situations where I find new ways to use them. Check out my makeshift conga line (a non-cheesy version) with the white lions to hold a crazy unit of chosen in place to get combo charged by two units of swordmasters in my latest battle report!

Quote:
The Silver Helms have actually disappointed me. I would've thought the difference between them and Dragon Princes would be less than I've experienced it to be. The extra WS, I, A and LD is often missed. Now that I'm running the BSB mounted, upgrading them to Dragon Princes would only grant +3 attacks (assuming I keep the champion, that is). I can't really seem to justify spending 50 more points to get +3 attacks though.


I can appreciate the concept - the cheapest, heavily armoured, fast moving wounds we can buy to use as a delivery mechanism for some punchy heroes. I can't seem to, however, get past the fact that these guys are 23 points each and have the same stat line as a spear elf. As far as I'm concerned, these guys have, and always will belong in our core section, and they have the stats to prove it. I hate that they steal points away from other, better special choices.

Hell, without life magic, they don't seem to last long for you anyway - maybe you should just make this a unit of ellyrion reavers lol. They'd still get your combat characters into melee.


Ok, bed time. I'll continue with my thoughts tomorrow!

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Brewmaster_D wrote:
This is my main concern with mounting the BSB - to use the movement effectively, that reroll bubble is usually only applying to that cavalry unit. The Gleaming Pendant helps, definitely, but I've tried games with no BSB this edition and man, did I ever wish I'd brought one. Fear tests, panic tests, break tests... they all add up!

Have you thought about putting him in the Phoenix Guard? With him in there, that unit turns into a scary unit on it's own, let alone with with the shadow buffs!


Well put. Curu, if you go back to spears with movement banner, phoenix guard with Sorcery banner and two Dragon prince units, with A BSB on foot and a mounted lord, you will have two places to store both characters, and more worry for your opponent. I think the BSB is better off in infantry since you usually don't need rerolls with the cavalry when you're charging, and after that your infantry moves up.

Please try the shard, particulary against LZ, DE, VC. I expect you'll find the performance too situational, but it'd be great to see it in action.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 6:39 am
Posts: 9
Curu Olannon wrote:
Bloodthirster, dispel scroll, hatred, killing blow, 3+/5++
Khorne Herald, BSB, Stubborn Banner, 1+/5++, Killing Blow, Mount (Juggernaut?)
Tzeentch Herald, Disc, Lore of Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Loremaster


Quick question, but isn't this an illegal list with 2 dispel scrolls?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
bramhaze wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
Bloodthirster, dispel scroll, hatred, killing blow, 3+/5++
Khorne Herald, BSB, Stubborn Banner, 1+/5++, Killing Blow, Mount (Juggernaut?)
Tzeentch Herald, Disc, Lore of Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Loremaster

Quick question, but isn't this an illegal list with 2 dispel scrolls?

It's the Daemon army book - everything is better than you think it should be. In detail, Daemons don't use "magic items", they use "Daemonic Gifts". They can duplicate gifts.

Removing the ability to duplicate gifts was one of the easiests nerfs that sometimes got applied to Daemons in 7th. Gifts get duplicated less in 8th, and Daemons are not as brokenly more powerful than everything in 8th, but they are still a really strong army.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:20 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
For those of you suggesting changes, for example making 2 units of Dragon Princes: I'd love to see concrete ideas of altered lists. This includes showing the points' math to make it all add up. I've been toying around with various changes myself but it all boils down to having to shave off too many points for my liking (I can't cut something out which I'm comfortable leaving behind). The most drastic change I've considered go as follows:

- Ditch the Silver Helms, place the characters with the Dragon Princes. Bring back the DP champion. This gives me +3A in the front rank compared to what I have with the helms. It does however, obviously, drop one of the Cavalry Hammers. However, as I've noted I haven't been satisfied with the Helms' performance compared to their cost. Are the Dragon Princes worth all the extra points of the upgrade? Between 3 attacks, WS5, I6 and LD9 (okkam's) I believe they are. Note that they're also immune to fire - a great difference in many cases.
- This leaves me with ~240 points to play around with. I could ditch the Repeater which frees up points for 21 Swordmasters, for example. I don't really think a smaller unit of Swordmasters would accomplish anything. Interestingly enough, 14 White Lions could indeed be worth taking a look at. This doesn't even require the Repeater to be dropped.

As for de-mounting the BSB - the problem then is that I need another mage.

dabber correctly replied with regards to Daemonic Gifts. It's been said that the Daemon book re-defined the word 'broken'. In a lot of ways, I agree.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:54 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12757
Location: Otherworld
It's frustrating playing Daemons as they are so strong but I love it as they are so colourful and characterful. Despite them being my hardest opponents by some way I always look forward to playing them.

The other thing is that with the right build and tactics I think we have some tools to have a go at them. They're not an army it's impossible to plan against.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Continuing where I left off:

Quote:
They hit very hard, but they're also quite expensive. Now that I've removed the Drakemaster that shaves off 40 points (quite a bit!). Their real strength lies in their ability to combo-charge and hunt down regenthings.


Their ability to quickly move to where they need to be, as well as their quite potent hitting power makes these guys a very tactically diverse unit. As with all of our cavalry, however, they do require support when it comes to prolonged combat. Shadow magic pairs great in this situation, with okkam's or withering picking up the slack after the charge. Their 2 attacks each really amplifies the effects of these spells.

Quote:
Repeater: I don't know what to say about this little thingy. Some games, it works wonders. Others, not so much. Most games it does a bit here and there but nothing vital.


I guess I've said my piece before on this guy, but I still view it as highly situational. With your fast, hard hitting army, and access to a lore that is full of ways of taking down big nasties, I see this unit as potential fat to trim from your list. I'm not saying it's useless, I just feel that since it costs 100 points, it's role needs to be clearly defined and justified (100 points really is a lot for that thing). I have a hard time with this list.

Quote:
Great Eagles: Simply put, wonderful. Their possibilities are endless and I feel like I'm really getting a lot out of these 100 points. They never disappoint!


Don't leave home without them! The only thing yours are lacking is names.

Quote:
I feel that the list synergizes very well with Shadows. In a hard environment, I do not believe cavalry lists can work with Life. This is simply because the units are too small and tougher armies can obliterate one element at a time - at will - rendering Life too weak. As I've discussed before, Life is also easy to prioritize against. I'm not saying Life is bad, I just don't think it can work with these kind of lists. I know Seredain probably disagrees with me on this particular point, but in my opinion he has yet to face really hard lists from really good opponents.


I agree to an extent. I think your margin for error is small - one slip up, wrong angle or bad deployment costs this list dearly. I also think the list really has a tough time with scenarios that mess with our deployment, but I also think this holds true for many high elf lists. Question is, would you enjoy playing a "hard" list just to be competitive in a hard environment? Me personally, I'd love to field a list like the one I'm currently running. Any win I got in that environment would be hard earned and well deserved!

Sure there are lists out there that can really give these cavalry lists trouble - I can think up some skaven lists that would just be ugly - but the point is that they're fun to play! That's why we're doing this, isn't it? :P

Quote:
For those of you suggesting changes, for example making 2 units of Dragon Princes: I'd love to see concrete ideas of altered lists.


Do I dare? I do. Here we go :P

Lords
Archmage, Level 4, Silver Wand, Lore of Shadows - 270
Prince, Standard build - 286

Heroes
BSB, Same build as currently - 188

Core

14 Archers, Musician - 159
11 Archers - 121
35 Spearmen, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant - 345

Special

9 Dragon Princes - Standard, Musician, Banner of Ellyrion - 315
9 Dragon Princes - Standard, Musician, BoEF - 310
16 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery - 320
Tiranoc Chariot - 85

Rare

2 Eagles - 100

Total: 2499

Something like that? Just throwing ideas out :P
You could also drop the chariot and beef up the Phoenix Guard. I just like the zone suppression the chariot provides.

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:37 am
Posts: 17
Location: Sweden
Curu Olannon wrote:
:: Army Evaluation ::

Silver Helms: The Silver Helms have actually disappointed me. I would've thought the difference between them and Dragon Princes would be less than I've experienced it to be. The extra WS, I, A and LD is often missed. Now that I'm running the BSB mounted, upgrading them to Dragon Princes would only grant +3 attacks (assuming I keep the champion, that is). I can't really seem to justify spending 50 more points to get +3 attacks though.
  • Best game: Vs Lizardmen: keeping the central combat running, the Prince safe and standing tall at the end of the game allowed me to Draw.
  • Worst game: Vs Vampire Counts. My inability to make proper use of the terrain meant that the Silver Helms pretty much just sat there behind my lines for far too long.
  • Overall performance: 6/10



How well would a smaller SH buss work? If I remember correctly Seredain had enough bodies to get rankbonus when charged into something. but if you feel that the buss is only for taking you to the enemy, wouldn't it be better to just shrink the buss and use the points elsewhere?
I don't know the values in my head but take away say two helms and use the points to upgrade the buss to DP or buy something completely different?

would it work? or is a smaller buss a bad idea?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group