Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:43 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 55  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:28 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
You don't have to worry about cluttering this thread - taking a tactical point of view from my opponents helps me and other readers of this thread to appreciate what threat my list brings.

As for Wood Elves and Great Eagles, I don't know if they have the same synergy. They don't have our blocks and are, in general, very mobile. As such perhaps the points are simply better spent elsewhere. I don't Wood Elves too good but I realize that part of why Great Eagles are so good for us is due to how our armies and units play.

I suppose there are quite a few readers of this thread who probably have questions and thoughts but haven't voiced them. Please, feel free to ask questions about anything - I assume I haven't covered everything ;)

Tomorrow, it's game on! Hopefully, Olannon will live past Turn 1 for a change...

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:03 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
So, I fought rusty's Wood Elves again - this time with actual Wood Elves in the list - this time at 2500 points! Since he's preparing for a tournament, we played with ETC rules. To all intents and purposes, this hardly affected the game save for LoS purposes in a few situations and my Banner of Sorcery being limited to +2 Power Dice.

:: Smoke and Mirrors ::

For this game, I swapped out the usual Seerstaff with Silver Wand as suggested by several members previously in this thread. This allowed me to add a Bladelord with 6+ Ward Save against War Machines. '

His list:

1 lvl 4 mage, 5+ ward save for entire unit, +1 Dispel Dice against spells cast with 4+ dice
1 BSB, Hail of Doom arrow
28 Archers (both characters went here)
17 Archers
12 Dryads
6 Treekin
6 Treekin
1 Treeman
1 Treeman

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Magic: I roll 2,3,4,5,6 and swap Penumbral for Miasma. He has Life and rolls 2,3,4,5.

He won the roll-off and chose the side where he could have his small archers in a house and the big archers on a hill. I knew my infantry would take a beating from his shooting if I got too close. I also knew I couldn't keep the cavalry in the open, either. Apart from this, I wanted to have my Prince against Treemen and the Dragon Princes against his Treekin. I was pretty sure he'd deploy in a tight manner and that I'd have to advance. As such, there was no need or opportunity for my normal deployment strategy. Regardless, I was pretty happy with the matchups.

Image

He won the roll-off and went first.

:: Wood Elves Turn 1 ::

He moves up, his Treemen blocking my Prince's approach and his Treekin taking up a central position.

Magic is weak and I dispel Throne, which is really all that matters.

Shooting sees Hail of Doom being released upon Swordmasters along with the rest of his Archers (both units). However, the BSB along with a lot of his other Archers don't see the Swordmasters very clearly and they get Hard Cover. Because of this, 'only' 8 of them die.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I advance every melee unit, making sure to keep a distance which make charges possible but unlikely. The Swordmasters however go into the nearby house, afraid to lose their Banner too soon. Olannon moves into range for Pit on his Treekin.

So, magic and I roll up 9 vs 5 dice, the Banner being capped at 2. I start off with a 2-dice Miasma to reduce his big unit's BS and what do you know: 2 6's come up for Irresistible Force. Unbelievable! I fear rolling 2-4 however the dice are co-operative: I roll a 7 and nothing major happens. The rest of my Dice are drained though and his Archers are at -2BS.

Shooting kills 3 Dryads. Because of the central woods I couldn't really target his Archers and the other unit was in hard cover.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 2 ::

He mostly moves backwards but his Treemen move forward to block and shoot my Helms. His Eastern Archers move out to get in short range of the Dragon Princes.

Magic is 5v5 dice after I channel 1 and nothing happens.

He again shoots my Swordmasters, but with hard cover and miasma, only 1 dies. The other Archers kill 3 Dragon Princes and the Treemen combine to kill 3 Silver Helms (I rolled rather poor for my 3+ saves here).

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I'm tired of losing models and I'm tired of Shadow Magic eluding me. I declare 2 charges, both from my cavalry units: the Dragon Princes against the Dryads and the Silver Helms against the Western Treeman. This meant Saerith would likely be the only one his other Treeman could attack in the event of a counter-attack.

My Eagle moved up to block his Western unit of Treekin. In his last turn, he was confident that if I broke his Dryads and overran, his counter-charge would murder me.

Magic is 9 vs 5 dice. I channeled a die but lost it because my Banner rolled a 4 and I'm capped at +2. I plan to throw out either Okkam's or Pit, depending upon what he'd rather face. 5-dice Okkam's at Dragon Princes go first, he picks up his 5, adds his extra from the item and successfully dispels it. A boosted Pit of Shades is successfully cast on 4 dice and kills no less than 5 (!!) Treekin from his Western unit!

In melee, the Treeman loses 4 wounds and kills a couple of Helms. He holds due to stubborn and BSB nearby. Dragon Princes barely break dryads (he rolled a 4 and needed 3-) and overrun into Treekin. They're now only 5 remaining though.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 3 ::

I declare Potion of Strength on Drakemaster.

Since he lost so many Treekin, there's room for his remaining, single model to charge through by like 1 millimeter. Careless placing on my part, sigh. His second Treeman charges my Prince and his Helms. His big unit of Archers wheel to target my Spearelves.

In his magic phase I dispel Flesh to Stone as I can't have my Dragon Princes face T7 Treekin. He gets Throne and Regrowth through, and I now have 3 Treekin at full health in my flank. Sigh.

Shooting kills no less than 14 Spearelves. I'm glad he's at -2BS!

Combat sees me suffer what Bretonnian players refer to as the rubber lance syndrom. I inflict a single wound between my 11 attacks, of which 3 are S8 (he made an insane amount of saves) which is doubled to 2 due to flaming. In return, I'm wiped out. His Treeman with only 2 wounds left dies to my Prince, however the other puts 2(!!) wounds past his 1+ re-rollable save after I fail my rolls badly.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

My Spearelves charge his reformed Treekin, the Great Eagle charges the ones behind. I'm hoping to get off Okkam's here and break them in dual-combat as it's my only hope pretty much at this game right now, unless I roll obscenely well with my Prince.

Magic is 8 v 5 and I start off with a 2-die Miasma on his Archers. He lets it through and they're -2BS again. I 6-dice Okkam's and get IF! The miscast result wounds me on a S6 hit.

Shooting kills a couple of Archers.

In combat, I plow through his Treekin like there's no tomorrow, his 5+ ward save this time failing to save 90% of the wounds caused. I overrun into his second unit and kill a lot here as well. In return, a couple of Spearelves die but he breaks badly. I choose to reform my Spears - intending to face his Archers - while the Great Eagle pursues with Swiftstride. He rolls 7 for his distance but I roll 6 with the Great Eagle. Wow. To add insult to injury, Saerith dies to the Treeman, having inflicted 4 wounds on him.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 4 ::

His Treekin rally and the big Archers shuffle 3 inches back, fearing my Spearelves. Magic regrows a lot of Treekin, I dispel Flesh to Stone on his Archers along with Throne of Vines.

Combat sees his Treeman kill my remaining 2 Helms.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

My Spearelves charge his Archers who Stand and Shoot to kill 2. They're now only 9 models left, including Naenor. The Swordmasters, down to 6-7 models, charge his Treeman. I fear his random amount of hits, but for no reason: only 1 dies after 2 hits only.

Magic is big as I roll 12 for Winds. I start off with The Enfeebling Foe on his Archers, reducing their Strength by 2. I follow up with The Withering on his Treeman, reducing his Toughness by only 1. He saved his dice for Okkam's, which I cast on my Swordmasters with 6 dice. A fairly poor roll, and he picks up 6+1 dice, however he rolls 5(!!!) ones and fails to dispel it.

The Treeman is cut down with ease, however I can't roll the 8+ needed to get into the Archers' flank.The Spearelves make a mess of his Archers' unit. Naenor finds himself in a challenge against his mage (which he issued due to me having more Spears in contact with him otherwise) and wounds him twice, the last wound being saved on his 5+ Ward Save from the Harp.

Image

:: Wood Elves Turn 5 ::

His Treekin charge my blocking Eagle. Magic is 8 v 4 and he gets Flesh to Stone through while I dispel the rest. Lifebloom heals his mage back to 2 wounds. In combat Naenor kills him regardless of T5 with good rolls on his Great Weapon. The rest of the Spearelves kill a couple of Archers, losing only 1 in return due to -2S.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I forget to charge my Swordmasters into the Archers, however it doesn't matter: the Spearelves and Naenor kill a lot of them and since he forgot to combat reform last turn, he doesn't have steadfast any longer. He fails to roll the required 3- and is run down.

At this point, nothing else is really going to happen. He's out of range of anything and I won't charge him with anything. We call it a game!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

Counting up, he has one unit of Treekin and the 17 Archers unit. I have the Spearelves, Swordmasters, both Archer units, the Repeater, Olannon and Naenor. A clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

For once, Shadow Magic really impressed me. My opponent, rusty, remarked upon how effective it plays with my units as I'm able to reach combat fairly quickly which is where the spells really hurt the most. Many people claim Okkam's is more of a broken spell than Dwellers. I'm not sure I agree, but having seen my 20 Spearelves plow through 9 Treekin in a single turn as if they weren't even there, I can definitely see the potential.

If I want to go with Shadow though, I believe Swordmasters are sub-optimal. Basically, Phoenix Guard will suit the list better: I will lack tough units and damage output will be covered by Shadow Magic. Granted, Swordmasters can fight well against most units without the aid of Shadow, but so can Dragon Princes and Silver Helms, not to mention Saerith and Naenor!

Playing against Life Magic, I encountered exactly the reason why I decided to try out Shadow: it's so easy to prioritize your defense against! Granted, he didn't roll Dwellers but there was hardly a turn where I would've needed to decide between Dwellers and Flesh to Stone as most units were either engaged or not simultaneously. Quite the opposite, rusty commented on a couple of my magic phases saying "prioritizing against your spells is like choosing to get either AIDS or uncurable cancer..."

Luck-wise I think we both had our shares of good and poor luck. Without analyzing every roll I'd say it was probably pretty even. In hindsight, I don't believe luck played a very big part in this game, though some rolls were incredibly frustrating (most importantly failing 2/3 saves on a 4+ re-roll with Saerith - meaning he'd surely die against the Treeman).

So, overall: I was very pleased with Shadow, but I believe that my list can make better use of it through including Phoenix Guard. I will continue trying this list as it stands, with Shadow, for 3 more games at the very least before I make a decision.

I hope you enjoyed the report and I'd love to hear your thoughts ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Another great report!

I'll admit, I was a little bit worried about you there for a minute, but shadow magic really stole the show here. Great job using the lore both offensively and defensively to mitigate damage and turn a deteriorating situation into a victory.

I think that this game, however, makes something very apparent:

You've got two units of cavalry, a large unit of spearmen, a couple tiny units of archers, then a block of swordmasters.

In terms of enemy shooting, their choices are, respectively: Hard target x 2, futile battle, waste of energy x2 and juicy bullseye.

Add on top of that your banner of sorcery and you can be sure that any enemy ranged units are going to be passing around mugshots of each of your swordmasters before the match.

With the lore of life you can use this - it will often be very easy to decide, in the early rounds, who will be getting regrowth/flesh to stone. However, with the lore of shadow you lose this - your only tool being Miasma, which can have mixed results.

In my list, I circumvent this problem by saturating the enemy with targets; two equally large units of swordmasters, and a very important unit of Phoenix Guard carrying the banner and the Archmage. The choice of who to shoot is much harder for the enemy, and have less of an effect on me.

So having said that, I don't think Shadow is a bad lore for your army per se, but I do think the nature of your list lends itself to the advantages of life more than others.

One other thought that I had (quoting from a much earlier post):

Quote:
Dealing with individual annoyances such as mangler squigs, weapon teams, lone mages etc can be very, very frustrating. The Repeater ensures that I at least have a chance of dealing with these. I don't believe I can justify two of them when I also have 25 archers, as support is just that: support, and not a main unit. Also, the potential of putting the hurt on biggies can really be a game-breaker against certain armies.


Having put in more games at this point, do you feel this RBT has justified its presence in your list? I seem to recall it did ok versus some shaggoths, but I feel that the archers are perfectly suited to taking care of the aforementioned annoyances. Thoughts?

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:28 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
You bring up some very valid points, which I've been considering myself (hence the Phoenix Guard mention in the evaluation of the Battle Report). Still though, I don't feel like swapping out the Swordmasters for Phoenix Guard just yet as I'd really like to see how this army plays - in general - with Shadow. If I do decide to go for Shadow, I'll probably look into optimizing it. In this case, a biggish unit of PG sounds very, very tempting. What's more, in such a case I'm very tempted to mount my BSB as his added punch to the Spearelves isn't really needed. In that case, we're looking at a mounted mage knight bsb with High Magic for shield and drain magic. A rough draft of that list:

-Prince and BSB in Helms
-Shadow Archmages
-35 Spears
-14 Archers
-11 Archers
-15-20 PG BoS
- 10 DP
- 8 Helms
- 2 GE
- 1 RBT

Now, concerning the Repeater. It's a really tough choice. I believe that it's possible to make decent lists without it. It's hardly ever been vital to me, but then again it really has proven useful a couple of times. In my games at 2500 points I haven't faced that much fast cav etc - the only annoyances being Skaven weapon teams. When I think about what I can get though to amplify the army, nothing strikes me as clearly superior to the RBT for 100 points. What's that - a lvl 1 metal mage? 6 more elite infantry? Especially if I go for Shadow I believe it's nice to have. 25 Archers + 1 RBT combined with The Withering can really put the hurt on most things.

I've thought quite a bit about Shadow and its impact upon our 'poor' units. The more I think about it, the more sense the Lore makes. I mean, I had 19 Spearelves and a Noble walk through nearly 800 points worth of monstruous infantry in one round of combat as if it were butter! With this potential, anything's deadly in melee. Add to that, the Withering combined with focused fire: it's plain nasty. If you take this to the extreme, you don't really need expensive specials. Simply load up on cheap core and rare units. This is exactly what Bobo did recently and it's making a lot of sense. With Book of Hoeth you can reliably weaken things so badly it's not even funny. To have 40+ Archers and 4+ RBT target you then, when the alternative is engaging fight-in-4-ranks-S8+ infantry... I guess what I'm trying to say is that the synergy between Shadow and our otherwise inferior core units is even better than Life. This is definitely something to be worth considering when choosing your army - the core being 25% and all.

Hopefully I'll have a lot of games coming up. I'm hoping for 2 games on Sunday, 1 on Monday, 1 on Wednesday and some more the next Sunday again. By that time, I should have a pretty clear understanding of what it is I want to do, magic-wise.

Oh and by the way - rusty would very much like some feedback as well. How do you think we both deployed and played the game?

Now, if I can just stop miscasting on my very first spell...

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Not trying to hijack your thread here Curu, I promise! ;)

Quote:
ou bring up some very valid points, which I've been considering myself (hence the Phoenix Guard mention in the evaluation of the Battle Report). Still though, I don't feel like swapping out the Swordmasters for Phoenix Guard just yet as I'd really like to see how this army plays - in general - with Shadow.


You're exactly right - when you've got a list to the level of refinement that you have yours at, it's important to make sure that any change you make isn't a knee jerk reaction based on one or two games.

Having said that, I think if you're going to stick with the lore of shadows, the Swordmasters will end up taking a lot of heat due to the combination of vulnerability to shooting and the banner. Have you considered just switching the BoS and the BoEF on the Swordmasters and Dragon Princes respectively? This mitigates the risk a bit by putting that pivotal banner on a unit that at least has a much better armour save. Using the last game as an example, would you have been as keen to keep those Swordmasters out of combat if they had not been holding that banner?

Quote:
Now, concerning the Repeater. It's a really tough choice. I believe that it's possible to make decent lists without it. It's hardly ever been vital to me, but then again it really has proven useful a couple of times. In my games at 2500 points I haven't faced that much fast cav etc - the only annoyances being Skaven weapon teams. When I think about what I can get though to amplify the army, nothing strikes me as clearly superior to the RBT for 100 points. What's that - a lvl 1 metal mage? 6 more elite infantry? Especially if I go for Shadow I believe it's nice to have. 25 Archers + 1 RBT combined with The Withering can really put the hurt on most things.


I think the key here is marginal benefit. Yes, 25 archers and a RBT can put the hurt on a unit that has the withering on it, but consider two things: first, you need to get the withering on a unit, and second, is the marginal benefit of the RBT worth the 100 points? In other words, is that extra 6 shots or single bolt going to do enough additional damage to make the 100 point cost worthwhile.

For me, I find the cost of those guys prohibitive. It depends on the list, but usually I find you either need to commit to them, or leave them on the shelf.

As far as weapon teams go, can two units of archers not handle one each a turn?

A thought I had of how you might otherwise spend that 100 points is a Tiranoc Chariot - With their high movement (for a chariot), they put out quite a large suppression zone, and can also be used to support your fast moving cavalry. Seems with two units of cavalry, your goal in most games is to get into combat quickly, and one of these guys could help add a little more punch where needed.

Just my two cents ;)

Quote:
I mean, I had 19 Spearelves and a Noble walk through nearly 800 points worth of monstruous infantry in one round of combat as if it were butter! With this potential, anything's deadly in melee.


I totally agree! everyone talks about how well life synergizes with our troops, being toughness 3 across the board, but what you don't hear near as much is how well spells like Mindrazor and Withering stack with our ability to hit reliably. Strength 8 spearmen that hit with 75-89% reliability? No other army in Warhammer can make better use of these spells.

Quote:
If you take this to the extreme, you don't really need expensive specials.


Unfortunately I'm a bit too conservative to take it to this extreme. Obviously it works, but it seems pretty heavily invested in magic pulling through. However, I keep imagining situations like my last game where my archmage got 'eadbutted to death on the third turn - the turn combat really started to take hold - and I think about what that would mean for an army like that. I'm not ready to take *that* much of a leap of faith :P

Quote:
Hopefully I'll have a lot of games coming up. I'm hoping for 2 games on Sunday, 1 on Monday, 1 on Wednesday and some more the next Sunday again. By that time, I should have a pretty clear understanding of what it is I want to do, magic-wise.


Wow, busy schedule! Looking forward to some more great battle reports!

Quote:
Oh and by the way - rusty would very much like some feedback as well. How do you think we both deployed and played the game?


Tough break on the treekin with the pit of shades there rusty. I've always thought that the big spells in this edition punish low initiative units/armies too much, with multiple wound models being the absolute worst case scenario.

In your particular list, have you considered trying to fit in an eagle? I know there was some talk earlier of them, but I just want to throw out a specific example - Curu's Dragon Princes were advancing up, and you put the Dryads in front of the Treekin, allowing him to move through the one into the next. Imagine that was a 50 point eagle instead of the dryads. It's just one example, but I really feel that your list, without a way to reliably break steadfast like curu has with the Dragon Princes, really needs to focus on combo charges. Eagles are one great way to facilitate this.

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Curu, thanks for well played game. I learned a lot.

@Brewmaster. We discussed eagles at length. First, I don't have room for a eagle in my rare allocation at 2400 points. At 2500 I might try it. Second, treemen are my eagles. Bear with me here :) .
Treemen take care of redirection, while at the same time shooting and providing me with a near unbreakable obstacle that are also my most powerful meelee unit. They're at their best vs infantry, but as cavalry were the main threats here I felt I had to commit them.

I think the one time I could win this game was if Curu hadn't IF'd Mindrazor on the spears. In that case, I might have dispelled it on my 5+1 dice, the spears would have died and the archmage would be facing nine treekin. Throughout the game I was on the backfoot, mainly due to magic. Any of his units could kill any of mine with mindrazor, and pit, miasma and withering were all a great threat to my army. If miasma had failed once Curu would probably lost either his spears or most of his silver helms to shooting, changing the rest of the game. Also, I believe I did the right thing in dispelling Mindrazor over Pit, as Mindrazored DPs would certainly destroy the treekin, while Pit have 2/3 chance of scattering 2D6, mostly in harmless directions. (Scattering on top of my I5 archers is classified as "harmless"). In summary, Shadow synergizes well with squishy troops that hit reliably wit multiple attacks. It also work great with how this army puts the pressure on. I echo the PG sentiment though. Also, having a RBT for when you get off withering on a large monster gives you more "tools in the toolbox".

As for my army, I'm stuck with Life and mostly happy with that. WE unfortunately don't have any "extra spell" items. I've tried beast and it has it's good points, particularly vs deamons. But id doesn't work as great with my Forest spirits. Curu suggested adding another lvl1 mage, but I probably don't have the points. Will have to think about it.
Miasma showed me fully the folly of large archer units. I will revert to four units of ten from now on. That will also enable me to shot past hard cover more easily. I'm undecided the divination orb, will probably have to try it some more times, and remember to use it. HoD arrow was gold, but I was unable to capitalize and destroy the SM due to Miasma and hard cover. I still have to be more careful with placement of my BSB and spellweaver. At one point I was unable to heal a treeman with lifebloom due to sloppy placement.


PS: Curu, what do you plan to do vs Tomb Kings? Army-wide 6+/5+ KB wil hurt your characters and cavalry quite a bit.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 56
Interesting read... I want to use a RBT, but every time I do I feel let down by it. I'm also torn between Shadow and Life, so I'll be reading your reports to see how Shadow and your RBT do. What I don't like about Shadow is it is not too effective until combat begins, except for reducing their BS or T if we shoot at them. On the other hand, Life early game lets you get your remains in place spells out, or increase T on a unit like Swordmasters so they won't die so quick. But having taken your advice from my army list thread, I'm going with Shadow for a while to see how it works, and you are right about how effective it makes our combat. Thanks for the reports.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:13 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
The only tactical mistake I perceive is the targetting of the successful Pit. I would have put that into the Treekin the DPs were expected to overrun into. That would have ensured the total destruction of that Treekin unit in combat, and there was no need to hurt the western Treekin this turn because of the blocking Eagle. I'm also not sure why you powered up the Pit. The small template would hit all the Treekin on a 'hit', and it scatters less on a non-hit.

Although you deployed oddly. Why were one of your archer unit in the middle behind the forest, where their shooting was penalized at effectively all targets? Why did you deploy nothing in the building right there?

Swapping the Swordmasters to White Lions is smaller swap than into Phoenix Guard (they still hit hard), and increases their shooting defense.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 2:58 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
Thanks Curu (and Rusty!), a particularly interesting clash, even if it did seem a bit like Life v Shadow at times!

On the magic I feel Banner of Sorcery gave you an edge. Wood Elves Arcanes revolve around dispelling, is there anything in the BRB they can take to boost their offense? Mindrazor was vicious here, it's easy to see why it's dominating tournaments at the minute. I've been thinking about how to counter it but it's difficult as it affects the player's own unit. Maybe Sigil, or Crystal to syphon off the power dice.

On the RBT issue it clearly dovetails nicely with Withering but more shooting needs to target the Withered enemy unit to make it worthwhile IMHO. I've found with Curse of Arrow Attraction that often it's only a small boost to the couple of units shooting one enemy. When everything can draw a bead though it's frightening, I removed an Ogre unit in one turn this way.

I'm not so sure that dropping the Bunker is a good idea Rusty. I have a severe distrust of 10-strong units for holding wizard lords. An opponent with good shooting and magic can erase these (and the mage) in one turn. I also think the Harp is not enough protection for your light characters to fight under. In this game it looked like they had nowhere to run out to though, having a smaller unit nearby might have been handy.

The game turned into a bit of a head-on clash it seemed with magic really swinging things.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:13 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Lots of things to address!

@ Brewmaster_D - don't worry about hijacking the thread. On the contrary, I encourage this type of input as it generates valuable tactical discussions which makes us all reconsider our choices and approaches :) As for swapping the Banners, I've thought about it. The problem is that a lot of regen creatures are things I want to hunt down fast. Examples include Hell Pit Abominations and Hydra. Also, my Dragon Princes are more often killed than my Swordmasters and are generally seen as a bigger threat. As for the marginal benefit of the RBT, I'm not sure I understand you 100%. I think that swapping it out for something else is more likely to simply take away some of my tactical options rather than adding strength to another element. The benefit with Withering is, as you say, circumstantial. However, it implicitly provides a stronger magic phase as prioritizing becomes harder. Do you dispel miasma, pit, or withering?

@ rusty - against Tomb Kings I suppose I'll play like I play against Trolls in Warriors of Chaos lists: I make sure to angle my units to marginalize the attacks at my characters. S5 vomit is also nasty and way more reliable than Killing Blow. Also, my Prince is WS7 and regardless, there's no good solution to killing blow against characters. Granted, a ward's nice but 1+ re-roll is better in by far the most situations. As for my Cavalry taking Killing Blow hits - I suppose I'll just have to suck it up. No good answer here, but with Shadow buffs I'm likely to murder anything I encounter with any unit I send.

@ Cxt - I disagree. Shadow is as dangerous as Life at range - even more so often times, unless Dwellers has a juicy target. -S and -T are both remains in play, whereas the only remains in play spell you care about from the Lore of Life is Throne of Vines. As such, you have a lot of good options for Shadow at range, which, in my opinion, makes it good on the offense as well. As you noted in the end of your reply, Shadow makes any and every Elf into a combat monster, leaving less of a focus on our expensive Elites.

@ dabber - I totally agree on the Pit issue. I'll just have to blame it on my inexperience with the Lore. As for the deployment - I wanted my Archmage centrally and I wanted my Silver Helms against his Treemen. I also needed to leave my infantry clear to advance from a central position from which the trees would hopefully help them. I believe this was a fairly useful action, 14 Archers don't hurt too much on long range and having moved anyway. They can, however, play a big part in the game later on if they're in a central position. I could've deployed Swordmasters in the building I suppose, but that would've seriously hindered their ability to move. How would you have placed my units? As for swapping to White Lions, that simply isn't going to happen. As I've argued in several other threads, I don't believe White Lions serve a proper purpose in most High Elf army lists. Sure, they can speedbump, but I very rarely need that. They're still T3 5+ against anything but physical shooting (they don't even get cloak bonus against magic missiles!) and most of the time, magic is more of a problem than shooting. Besides, Shadow synergizes way better with Phoenix Guard.

@ SpellArcher - Banner of Sorcery is insanely powerful. I believe it's one of our trademark items which allows us to fight the way we're supposed to. Granted, with Book of Hoeth it becomes a little broken as you'll usually have 2 IF spells per turn. I agree that magic played a big part in this game - but then again there's been several games lately where this has not been the case. My army invests roughly 330 points in magic - which is about the same as my Swordmasters cost. Sometimes you really see them ripping through stuff as well (see the first game against Warriors of Chaos for example).

So a question for you all - how would you optimize this list for Shadow? I've been thinking that the Spearelves don't really need the added Noble punch, which allows me to mount him as a High Mage Knight BSB. Also, I definitely believe Swordmasters are better off as Phoenix Guard. Apart from this, I don't see any obvious changes. Thoughts?

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:14 pm
Posts: 85
Location: USA
Great report! I have been wondering how a big unit of silver helms and dps in the same army would fare. To me it seems like a risk because you only have high strength on the charge and your overall units/wounds in the army isn't as high. However, on the flip side they do have a high armor save and they are very mobile which lets you choose your targets easier.

I am now thinking about trying Shadow magic as well. I misused it before because I had a very shooty army and was trying to sit back and shoot things up while using shadow magic. Pit of shades was just too unreliable. In one game I cast it 5 times and only killed like 6 dudes.

I am now playing a more aggressive army and so I might give it a go again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:14 pm
Posts: 85
Location: USA
SpellArcher wrote:
So a question for you all - how would you optimize this list for Shadow? I've been thinking that the Spearelves don't really need the added Noble punch, which allows me to mount him as a High Mage Knight BSB. Also, I definitely believe Swordmasters are better off as Phoenix Guard. Apart from this, I don't see any obvious changes. Thoughts?


In the last game I played I used a mage prince with death against Orcs and Goblins. I took the death signature spell and he worked wonders in taking out all of his high leadership models which then made it very easy to panic his army off the board. It also gave me extra dice in my pool on a couple of occasions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 3:25 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Nithe wrote:
Great report! I have been wondering how a big unit of silver helms and dps in the same army would fare. To me it seems like a risk because you only have high strength on the charge and your overall units/wounds in the army isn't as high. However, on the flip side they do have a high armor save and they are very mobile which lets you choose your targets easier.

I am now thinking about trying Shadow magic as well. I misused it before because I had a very shooty army and was trying to sit back and shoot things up while using shadow magic. Pit of shades was just too unreliable. In one game I cast it 5 times and only killed like 6 dudes.

I am now playing a more aggressive army and so I might give it a go again.


The risk you mentioned for the Cavalry is indeed correct. However, you gain a few things: immunity to infantry-based spells (e.g. Dreaded 13th), the high armour save you mentioned, 'immunity' to fire-based things and breath weapons and perhaps most importantly: you can't be stomped nor thunderstomped. With the abundance of monsters in 8th, this can really be a game-changer. Also, M8 + Swiftstride ensure YOU dictate where and when to fight - an enormous advantage not to be taken lightly, especially not for High Elves.

Let us know how you fare with Shadow and cavalry :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:29 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
Curu Olannon wrote:
Banner of Sorcery is insanely powerful.

I like the description someone posted on Druchii.net:

"Banner of Spamming Power Dice"

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Quote:
So a question for you all - how would you optimize this list for Shadow? I've been thinking that the Spearelves don't really need the added Noble punch, which allows me to mount him as a High Mage Knight BSB. Also, I definitely believe Swordmasters are better off as Phoenix Guard. Apart from this, I don't see any obvious changes. Thoughts?


I believe there's two ways to write/play a shadow based list. First, there is a list that is written with shadow in mind to augment damage, and then there is a list that is written with Shadow in mind to produce the damage.

The list that was mentioned already composing mostly of spearmen, bolt throwers and eagles is a great example of a list that relies on Shadow to produce the damage. It takes it to the extreme, taking the cheapest, most effective troops we can to make aggressive use of spells like withering and mindrazor.

Then there is a list like the one I'm running in my Mighty Empires campaign - Multiple small, hard hitting units to saturate the enemy with targets, and shadow magic to help deal with threats and help augment combats that I feel don't favour me.

Both can work well, however the former relies on the magic to produce results. Imagine how well three blocks of spearmen and 4 bolt throwers would do vs Chaos Warriors if that Archmage died first turn. With the latter, the list still functions despite the absence of the archmage - you just need to be choosier with the combats you commit to.

I side more towards the conservative end of the spectrum, because anything can happen. Archmages die, banners get taken, spells don't get rolled and the winds of magic are fickle.

Having said that, looking at your list as it currently stands, if you intend to move the BSB, the gleaming pendant is a must on your spearmen. That block would be a shame to lose to something silly like a hellcannon shot.

I like the idea of switching the swordmasters to something else. I know you had a thread asking when the Lions were better than the swordmasters - I think we may have found that scenario :P They offer another relatively hard target for shooting, giving the opponent no clear choice of targets. They also retain some of that hitting power that the original unit had, and they do it without magical augmentation - so when your archmage gets killed 2nd turn like he seems to do a lot for you, they are still a major threat.

As far as the Radiant Gem noble goes, I'd probably leave that at home. What does a 5+ ward do that a miasma or enfeebling foe doesn't? Your key units, should you change the swordmasters, have a 2+ AS for the cavalry and either a 3+AS or 5+/4++ save and numbers for the spearmen. Given that the units are similarly tough, if you pop the ward on one, they'll simply shoot another. I'd rather see you use those dice for either putting pressure on them with pits and miasmas, or pre-emptively putting up the RiP spells for magic defense.

Quote:
As for the marginal benefit of the RBT, I'm not sure I understand you 100%. I think that swapping it out for something else is more likely to simply take away some of my tactical options rather than adding strength to another element. The benefit with Withering is, as you say, circumstantial. However, it implicitly provides a stronger magic phase as prioritizing becomes harder. Do you dispel miasma, pit, or withering?


What I mean by the marginal benefit of the bolt thrower is this: Let's take a hydra for example. You get a withering off on it, and get an average roll of -2T. You loose your 25 arrows, and land 12.5 hits. You then roll to wound, and score 6.25 wounds. Regeneration comes up with 3 saves, leaving the hydra with 2 wounds left. You fire 6 shots from your RBT, probably hitting on 3's - 4 hits, 2.66 wounds, approximately 1 after regeneration. Is that one extra wound worth the 100 points you're spending to field the bolt thrower? Even if you like the chance of getting lucky and wounding twice, consider that you have lots of tools in your list that could deal with a 2 wound hydra before it had a chance to attack back.

Also consider the nature of your list - you have fast, hard hitting units. Fast units that get into combat quickly means that your options for shooting rapidly diminish. Look at the treemen last game - big nasties that you'd want to shoot if withered. They were in combat with your Helms turn 2 (well, one was anyway :P). The effectiveness of your bolt thrower drops rapidly due to the fast nature of your list. With a chariot, however, you'd have other possibilities - another unit to cover flanks, threaten counter charges and help tip the scales of combats with minimum frontage needed. Its effectiveness increases as your game progresses.

A chariot also presents another target for shooting, saturating things even more - and an inexpensive one at that (for high elves at least :P)

Don't get me wrong here, I love the RBT as much as anyone, I just think they need to be fielded with a list that plays to their benefits.

The RBT isn't a major concern though, just playing the devil's advocate ;)

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:57 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@ SpellArcher - fitting description. Then again, between hydras, pendant and useful core units, Dark Elves shouldn't whine ;)

@ Brewmaster - I agree with your assessment of Shadow being used to either produce or augment. However, there's a fine line to walk in-between - at which point it's essential but not necessarily crucial to success. I believe this is what I'm trying to aim for. Regardless of lore, my cavalry units and the Prince in particular is able to deal a lot of damage. As such, Shadow would add potential while not being critical to my army's possibility of dealing damage to tough targets.

As for White Lions, I'm not including them. I see no purpose here, they're hardly more durable than Swordmasters. Granted, they can stand more physical shooting but as already mentioned, they're equally weak against magic which is most frequently the problem. Examples include Plague, Treason, Magic Missiles and other direct damage spells. Granted, against Dwellers they're better and most other characteristics-based tests they're equal. White Lions provide an anchor, which I don't need and I don't want to base my strategy around. As I said before, I just don't see them as killy as the Swordmasters nor as durable as the Phoenix Guard. As such, they're falling in-between. With Shadow Magic in particular, I believe Phoenix Guard are a better choice. If my Archmage gets killed early on, the Phoenix Guard are still pretty tough and can ditch out a bit of pain, although necessarily not as much so as the White Lions.

Radiant Gem BSB offers a lot of options. If I decide to go for High Magic, it makes prioritizing harder. Early on, it can help my cavalry gain a decent save against War Machines (something Shadow can't) or the Spearelves against Stone Throwers. It also gives me Drain Magic which can seriously help me get through the first couple of turns. However, I can also go for Beasts. This will make my cavalry units into real monsters and if I go for Phoenix Guard, will make these quite capable as well. It also provides redundancy - if my Archmage dies I can still cast spells AND I get +2 to dispel. Being mounted, he is still 2+ save with a re-roll. Compared to what the Spears generally receive in terms of fighting power, I believe this is a fair trade-off as their potential with Shadows is pretty huge. I'm not sure High Magic is the right choice, but I'm confident that a mounted mage-BSB works better with this list if I go for Shadows.

About the RBT vs Chariot: Chariots are unreliable. 1D6 means a lot of variance, and the support attacks are next to worthless. Also, I rarely, if ever, feel the need for extra power when I charge. The Cavalry Hammers are so strong on their own. If I were to ditch the RBT, I think 6 extra elite infantry would be the best exchange. However, at the moment I like how it plays so I'll leave it for the time being. By the way, playing Devil's Advocate is mostly a good thing when it comes to list discussion as it'll highlight concerns related to a particular choice.

I have scheduled 2 games on Sunday. One is against an elite heavy Warriors of Chaos list (same player which I played 1500 points against where I massacred his units with my Swordmasters), featuring a chosen Deathstar I believe, backed up by Tzeentch casters with Puppet. The other is against either Vampire Counts, Lizardmen or Tomb Kings. I've been told that the latter usually plays fairly strong tournament lists so this could be interesting indeed. I'll have to read up on these armies, I suppose.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:15 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi! Am I right that you played with 2500 against 2400?

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:33 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi! Am I right that you played with 2500 against 2400?


No, he expanded his army with 100 points :)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 135
Quote:
As far as the Radiant Gem noble goes, I'd probably leave that at home. What does a 5+ ward do that a miasma or enfeebling foe doesn't?

Quite a lot actually! :D

I personally think Shield is an absoloutely amazing spell for HE, and I always try to ensure that I include it in my lists somewhere. I find it does plenty that no other spell can replicate.

First of all, it provides protection against everything targeting that unit. Certainly the shadow debuffs will help neeutralise a single unit you are going to get shot by/engaged in close combat - but if your facing combo-shooting or combo charges, Shield tends to do the job much better. In addition, it protects against war machines, which none of the hexes/buffs in Shadow can manage. If you have cavalry in range of hellblaster volley guns (or infantry facing mortars) a timely casting of Shield can really save their bacon.

Second, its ridiculously easy to cast. You have a good chance of one-dicing it with a level 2, and its range (18"), and the fact it targets your own units rather than the enemies (who are closer to your mages the vast majority of the time) means its a rare occasion when it won't be in range of the unit you want to cast it on. Withering, which achieves a similar, albeit superior, effect in close combat (an average -2 from their rolls to wound compared to a 5+ ward) is twice as hard to cast, and is RIP so - unlike Shield - can be dispelled in your opponents magic phase. Its cheap casting cost also means opponents tend to leave it alone and concentrate on dispelling more threatening spells.

Finally, I find its flexibility is great. I often find there tends to be one unit at particular risk in any given turn (whether its cavalry facing down war machines, infantry facing a difficult combat, or whatever) so while in theory an opponent can target/charge one of the units you haven't given magical protection, they are usually nowhere near such an optimal target - less units can target them, they are no immediate threat, they get cover modifiers, or whatever. If cast, it can protect your unit in combat in your turn, and protect them against countercharges or shooting in your opponents following turn. And it can protect a unit against multiple threats.

Bit of a longwinded and extensive post there! :D Still, I felt I had to put the case for SoS - its such a useful spell for the HE its always worth considering getting into a list somewhere if you can.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:50 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
tethlis the slayer wrote:
it can protect your unit in combat

This is the real strength of Shield IMHO. If you have a unit in combat and Shield it, the enemy cannot choose to attack a different unit!

Curu Olannon wrote:
they're equally weak against magic

Arcane Protection!

:)

Though I appreciate they're never going to see your gaming table anyway...

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Imagine how well three blocks of spearmen and 4 bolt throwers would do vs Chaos Warriors if that Archmage died first turn.

Well if this is Mr Alexander's Core + Rare spam list you would at least have plenty of shooting and four eagles. Not good though, I'll admit.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
if you intend to move the BSB, the gleaming pendant is a must on your spearmen

Yeah it looks pretty sensible to me.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
marginal benefit of the bolt thrower

It does give other options though. The range and armour penetration mean the opponent has to more careful what he leaves floating around.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Also consider the nature of your list - you have fast, hard hitting units.

This is a good point.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
I think the key with the 5+ save is context. It's a great spell to have around if you know for sure that a unit is going to be taking heavy damage in that turn. This assumes one of two things:

1. They are the obvious best choice for shooting/magic
or
2. They are in combat that turn

My argument is this: Curu has two units of cavalry of similar level of importance. They both fall under the category of obvious best choice for shooting/magic. Therefore in this particular list, there's going to be very few situations where the enemy is forced to shoot only one of those two units. Buff the helms, take shots on the Princes. Buff the Princes, take shots on the Helms. True line of sight makes it very difficult to present your opponent with only one option in shooting. So that's how I feel about scenario 1.

In scenario two, again, it comes down to context. If you look at Curu's list, it focuses on using maneuverability and force concentration to dictate where and when combat happens. As such, being combo charged, for this list is an extremely bad situation, and a 5+ ward save isn't going to change that much. Take, for example, the game vs. the Warriors of Chaos with the large group of warriors. In this match his Archmage died early, forcing him to abandon his normal tactics and play very aggressively. This led to his unit getting combo charged by the Warriors and Trolls. I don't think a 5+ ward save would have saved him in this situation.

In one on one combat, lore of shadows offers plenty of solutions with similar effect - reduce weapon skill to reduce chances of hitting, reduce strength to reduce chances of wounding or simply use -T or Mindrazor to do enough damage to reduce incoming attacks.

I'm not saying it's a bad spell - quit the contrary, it's very useful indeed. I just think that it's necessary to also consider the context of the list it is in.

Quote:
I just don't see [the White Lions] as killy as the Swordmasters nor as durable as the Phoenix Guard


Nor should they be - they are the middle ground. Either way you're working around a downside - Phoenix Guard are unable to pose much of a thread without magical aid, and White Lions aren't as survivable as the Phoenix Guard. I personally view the lions being stubborn like a nice perk. I do, however, agree with you that in this situation, they might not be survivable enough to make the difference you need. At the end of the day it comes down to exactly what you said - there is a fine line to walk when writing this list with Shadows in mind.

Quote:
I'm not sure High Magic is the right choice, but I'm confident that a mounted mage-BSB works better with this list if I go for Shadows.


I love the idea of this guy with the beasts default spell - he'll always be in range since he's in the unit, and he can turn that unit into an absolute nightmare on the charge. I really see your list being a "Best defense is a good offense" type of list.

Quote:
By the way, playing Devil's Advocate is mostly a good thing when it comes to list discussion as it'll highlight concerns related to a particular choice.


I really like your list, and at some point would like to play it myself to see how it goes. As such, I like to bounce my thoughts about certain units and combinations not necessarily to talk you out of them, but rather to see your justification for them, know what I mean?

In the case of that RBT, I usually adopt a policy of two or bust, but in this case I feel that you've done a great job of explaining your motivations for one. Shadow magic really does amplify the threat this guy poses significantly.

Looking forward to seeing your reports from this weekend!

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:47 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
@ tethlis the slayer - thanks for the rundown on Shield of Saphery. You pretty much described my thoughts exactly ;)

@ Brewmaster_D - at the moment the Beasts BSB-knight is the more likely option. +1S and +1T is insane and should seriously make enemies reconsider a few things. If I have 12 dice in a magic phase and it's a heavy melee going on, I can cast Beasts signature spell on 3 dice, enfeebling foe on 3 dice and Okkam's on 6. What do you choose to protect against? Even with fewer dice, the choice is still hard. Knowing Okkam's is waiting behind, letting +1S and +1T through could indeed sound like a lucrative proposition ;) As for you questioning my choices due to getting a more clear reasoning - this is perfectly fine! I suppose a lot of players who are unfamiliar with the game mechanics (especially the advanced ones) read this thread so explaining things thoroughly makes it easier for everyone to see why I've made the choices I have. Also, it forces me to re-consider if I actually made the right choice, which is usually a good thing!

As for 2 RBT - I would if I could! Simply can't find 100 points to spare.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 10:51 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
My first game against Lizardmen, and this clearly shows! I have read battle reports etc but I didn't really know how they play. I believe this is my worst played game so far, so I'd really like some feedback here as I'm sure you have a million things to comment on. Anyways, on to the Battle!

:: Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients ::

I decided before the game to try out the 'unkillable' Archmage, just for the fun of it. Since this list is just playtesting Shadows I found it ok. Besides, I reckoned it could be useful against all the Skinks. Allowing myself a tad bit of tailoring didn't seem to be too wrong since I'd never played Lizardmen before. I had to drop various musicians and some Swordmasters to afford this. Apart from this, my list was as usual.

His list:
Tooled-up Slann in 25 Temple Guard
Skink Priest - fly-item & Dispel Scroll
40 Saurus
10 Skinks - javelins
10 Skinks - javelins
10 Skinks - blowpipes
10 Skinks - blowpipes
9 Chameleon Skinks
7 Chameleon Skinks
6 Chameleon Skinks
2 Salamanders
4 Terradons
1 Razordon

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

Yikes! Quite a few units and quite a bit of shooting. As usual, I wasn't too worried about the Saurus block.

Magic sees me get Miasma, Enfeebling, Pendulum, Pit and Okkam's. I wished I could've had Withering here but can't have it all! His Slann knew everything from Lore of Life while his Skink Priest had 1 and 6 from Heavens. We roll Dawn Attack and he has to place his army first. I follow up with my normal strategy of trying to overwhelm a flank. His placement of Saurus in particular had me confident I could approach as usual.

Image

I rolled a 6 but gave him first turn. This mostly had to do with charge ranges etc. In hindsight, this was a big mistake, however 5 out of 6 times I will be going second regardless so I should learn to play this way with such a deployment advantage.

:: Lizardmen Turn 1 ::

Everything walks up, his Chameleons closing in on me. Magic sees Throne go up but he fails Shield of Thorns and the phase ends.

Shooting kills the Repeater but nothing else happens.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I advance too cautiously. My Archers turn to face a unit of Chameleon Skinks each. Magic sees me get -2S on Temple Guard and a boosted Miasma on his Razordon for which I roll a '6'. Shooting kills a couple of Chameleons.

Image

:: Lizardmen Turn 2 ::

Terradons and Skinks move into my lines, my Helms having ignored them last turn. His combat blocks move up further.

Magic sees a bunch of buffs go up. I save my dice but for no reason - Dwellers is cast with IF on Spears. Half of them die, luckily Naenor survives.

Between shooting and Terradon rocks, my Swordmasters are down to 6-7 models and my Archmage's bunker is now only 4 Archers.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I have got to get into combat and win decisively, fast. I declare Potion of Strength on Drakemaster. Luckily, he cast +4T on Saurus last turn, not Temple Guard. Charge-time! I combo-charge Javelin-skinks with Swordmasters and Spearelves. This way, I can position Spearelves for an overrun into Temple Guard (who are 12" away) or redirect, if necessary. The diagram is a little unclear here, but without the Skinks being removed (dying, fleeing) I couldn't fit both Dragon Princes and Spearelves against his Temple Guard. Anyway, he flees and I roll snake eyes for my overrun. Swordmasters are too far away as well, even with a semi-decent roll. Curses, the Dragon Princes are left on their own to the front of 25 Temple Guard. At least my flaming attacks meant that their regeneration wouldn't count for much. My Helms charge Skinks, who flee. Redirect into Razordon, who also flees.

Magic is 8 vs 4 dice. I start off with a 2-dice miasma on TG, reducing their Weapon Skill by 1. I then go to a 6-dice Okkam's. Olannon is just within 24" of the Slann, but even with a discarded 6 the spell goes through. No help though, the Skink priest scrolls it. Slann dispels -2S on TG.

Shooting is uneventful. In combat, my Dragon Princes kill quite a few Temple Guard (think it was around 12) and lose 3 in return. Break test is passed and the combat rages on.

Image

:: Lizardmen Turn 3 ::

His Skinks envelop my now pretty much non-existing firebase. The fleeing troops rally. Saurus block charges blocking Eagle.

Magic sees Slann get up Throne and Flesh. Just what I needed!

Skinks kill my remaining bunker Archers. I reveal Folariath's Robe to much dismay as he thought Olannon was surely cornered.

In combat my Dragon Princes actually kill a couple of TG but are all butchered in return.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Silver Helms reform to face Tempel Guard, who are charged by my Spearelves. I need to kill that unit as soon as possible to have any chance at this game. Swordmasters move to block a unit of Skinks while the Eagle blocks the Razordon. The remaining unit is small, but has a rear charge. With Make Way! it's hardly worth it, I reckon. Olannon moves out of 24" of the Slann to avoid losing his 6's.

Magic - I need Shadows to work wonders. I get 9 vs 5 dice and decide to throw 6 at Okkam's. However, first things first and I reduce his TG's strength by 2. Okkam's is dispelled though, a poor roll on my part.

In combat, my Spears kill a couple and he can't kill a lot himself, being -2S.

Image

:: Lizardmen Turn 4 ::

Movement to shoot my cavalry and support main combat units. Olannon is charged in the flank, my opponent hoping to break him due to combat resolution. Saurus reform to face middle.

Magic - and he rolls snake eyes! I manage to channel 1 so it's 2v2. Despite this, he gets both regen and +2T up on his TG, me rolling very poorly on the +2T dispel attempt.

Shooting brings down most of my remaining Archers and a Silver Helm.

In combat, my Spearelves kill enough to remain steadfast by an inch! The TG are now down to 10, and my Spearelves 12 or so. Naenor was the only one in base contact with a couple so this really helped me out here, saving Spearelves from dying. Having him on -2S also helped. I pass the break test again and eye an opportunity to get back in the game.

Olannon passes his break test on LD7 (I rolled a 6 and a 1)! Game on!

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Silver Helms charge his Temple Guard in the flank. Magic AGAIN sees him dispel a poor roll at Okkam's. Nothing else important happens in the magic phase.

Shooting is non-existant. In combat, I roll very well with both Saerith and Naenor, along with the Helms: every remaining Temple Guard dies! The Spearelves manage to put a single wound on the Slann, who needs to roll insane courage. What do you know, he gets two 1's and holds. Oh my, not another turn of Slann magic...

Image

:: Lizardmen Turn 5 ::

His magic is ineffective and I breath a sigh of relief. His Terradons charge Olannon, the Saurus block get into melee with Spearelves. 2 units of Skinks also engage Spearelves and Silver Helms and his Razordon rear-charges my Silver Helms.

Olannon fails his break test but rolls two 6's and escapes - 2" from the table edge!

The rest of the game went like this: His Saurus couldn't hurt my Spearelves because they were only 4 left, and Naenor was at the end towards the Saurus' flank. This tied them up, with a 2+ re-roll proving too much. His desperate skinks were all killed, as was his Razordon.

I miscast IF Okkam's with Olannon in my Turn 5. This took a wound off of him, which made Turn 6 interesting: his Skink Priest got off Chain Lighting but rolled a '1' for hits! Olannon survived with 1 wound: in the middle I had Naenor at 1 wound, Saerith at 2 wounds (having used Loec against Temple Guard), 4 Spearelves and 2 Silver Helms left alive.

:: Victory Points ::

By the time we got this far, I had no idea of the score. I had killed his Slann, Temple Guard and Razordon. He pretty much obliterated my army but I had a lot of points remaining. I also had bonus points for killing BSB, General, and taking a banner. It all boiled down to the fact that I was something like 30 points ahead, which meant I had managed to get a tie out of this cluster**** of a match!

:: Evaluation ::

I don't know where to start. I made so many mistakes this game. First of all, deployment. I rolled a couple of 6's so I could've used these units (1 of them was the Eagle) to protect better against Skinks. I find, yet again, that I play poorly against Scouts. I really need to start thinking more about this. Also, my Silver Helms was not in a position to engage his Slann quickly enough - which showed on Turn 3. I could've played them more aggressively on Turn 1 which would've mitigated this.

Movement - I totally underestimated his Skinks. I don't know what I should've done to counter this. He could've stand and shot my Swordmasters to death. I could've deployed Dragon Princes on my other flank but this would've left his Salamanders with a clear path to my Spearelves. Fact is - I moved away from my firebase and I got totally dominated because of it. He pretty much had me enveloped. Also, my Turn 1 movement could've been much more ambitious, which would've left his flee reactions much more dangerous. I don't really fear charges by his small units so I should've moved further up. Granted, with my Spearelves rolling snake eyes for charge distance they wouldn't have hit anything regardless, but he might not've fled in the first place.

Magic - I couldn't do anything about his 'taste-my-free-power-dice' spam. A vortex shard would've been nice, but that's just wishful thinking. I couldn't roll what I need for Okkam's either, so overall magic was way in his favour. That being said, I did get a crucial -2S through and he rolled snake eyes for what could've been a game-winning magic phase: Imagine all buffs up, dispelling -2S and Dwellers on Helms. Yep!

So - I'll blame a lot of my mistakes on this being my first game against Lizardmen. I'm quite happy with a tie after the first couple of turns. The biggest mistakes are due to me not using my head though, and these include not taking the first turn (seriously..), not moving up far enough and not protecting against scouts.

I did do something right and I will give myself credits for a splendid Dragon Princes performance - keeping a lot of magical pressure away due to him fearing a charge on Saurus, his Salamanders being kept at bay pretty much the entire game (they killed a couple of archers towards the end was all). Also, my Eagles, as usual, performed as I needed them to - keeping a big combat block away until it was all but too late.

Anyways, as I said at the beginning: I'd really like some feedback here. I'm sure many of you have some thoughts about this game and a lot more experience combating Lizardmen than I do. One thing is for sure though, with all these Skinks and the Slann around, they have a very, VERY tough core.

I also played against Warriors of Chaos today. At the very least, I played way better in that game. I'm writing the report up as you're reading this, so stay tuned ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Mon May 30, 2011 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Yikes! And I thought I had it bad with the Lizardman shooting. Hats off to you for weathering the storm as best you could. As a first time versus lizardmen, this was definitely a nasty list.

In my gaming group, there's 3 lizardmen players, one of which I play on a fairly regular basis. As such, one of the habits I've gotten myself in to is trying to make sure that I either have a unit somewhere in my deployment zone to cut off scouts (applicable versus other armies too, not just lizards) and/or a solution for dealing with them when they inevitably go down.

I find that you can sometimes use scouts to your advantage - leave a tasty spot in your deployment zone, and they're almost guaranteed to go there. When you know where they're going down, you're one step closer to being able to manage them.

In this game, unfortunately, your opponent was able to start in on your firing base early with his scouts, limiting your options for dealing with all of those skirmishers.

I find the best way to deal with skink heavy lizardmen - and I failed miserably at this in my last game might I add - is to protect your firing base. Despite the penalties to hit, archers are some of the best tools we have for dealing with swarms of T2 skinks.

Quote:
I totally underestimated his Skinks. I don't know what I should've done to counter this. He could've stand and shot my Swordmasters to death. I could've deployed Dragon Princes on my other flank but this would've left his Salamanders with a clear path to my Spearelves.


Again, I think this is one of the inherent weaknesses of the Shadow lore - although it's great for amplifying the damage of our combat and shooting, I find I'm missing having a direct damage/magic missile spell to help deal with small distraction units, which your opponent had in spades. Awakening the woods would have been pure gold this game, with all of those skinks dancing around in the forests.

Quote:
Magic - I couldn't do anything about his 'taste-my-free-power-dice' spam. A vortex shard would've been nice, but that's just wishful thinking. I couldn't roll what I need for Okkam's either, so overall magic was way in his favour. That being said, I did get a crucial -2S through and he rolled snake eyes for what could've been a game-winning magic phase: Imagine all buffs up, dispelling -2S and Dwellers on Helms. Yep!


Sheesh, tell me about it :P I find the Anullian Crystal helps, but it certainly is one of the toughest magic phases in the game to deal with. When they fail a cast, I feel like I need to kiss a horseshoe or something.


But overall, it looks like the crucial problem was losing a good portion of your firing base first turn. I think you did one thing right - and this is where I failed in my last game - you assaulted that block of Temple Guard as priority one. If you take down that slann, the tide turns, as it seemed to for you.

Looking forward to the next one!

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:15 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Second game of the day, this time against Warriors of Chaos! This was a rematch against the guy I played against at 1500 points where he fielded a very elite army which got slaughtered by my Swordmasters.

:: Despoilers of the Lands ::

This time around I chose to simply use my 'standard' Shadow list. No point in an unkillable Archmage here.

His list:
Disc Lord
Disc Hero
18 Warriors w/Exalted Hero BSB
40 Marauders
40 Marauders
5 Knights, Mark of Nurgle, Frenzy Banner
2 Hellcannons
5 Marauder Horsemen
5 Warhounds

:: Pre-battle thoughts & deployment::

I'm not too worried about his list. Only thing which bugs me is the presence of puppet. I assume I can out-deploy him in my usual way and handle his units at a time and place of my own choosing.

For magic, I roll Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling Foe, Pit, Okkam's. He gets every spell since he has a level 2 and a level 4. The Scenario is Battleline. I win the roll-off and let him pick sides as they're fairly equal as far as I can tell. I want to maximize my deployment advantage so let him place first.

Image

He goes first, with a 6 vs a 3.

:: Chaos Turn 1 ::

Everything walks up, his Marauders taking on a flanking role. Magis is 2 dice vs 1, he gets +1 from a revealed power familiar. He manages to get pandamonium through.

Shooting - both Hellcannons land a hit on Silver Helms. A moment later, 6 knights are dead (I can't roll 4+ to save my life). They pass panic and it's my turn.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 1 ::

I advance cautiously yet again, making sure to keep charges unlikely. Saerith moves into the Dragon Princes (first time ever if I remember correctly!) for protection. Eagles move up to disturb and be ready to interact when needed. Small Archers move down from the hill, allowing the others to see clearly.

Magic - I get a slight advantage from Banner of Sorcery. First - panda goes away. Can't keep that around, no way! The result of the rest is a boosted Miasma on his Warriors. I roll a '6' for the D3 effect - enjoy slugging along!

Shooting sees all my units target the middle Marauders, killing 10 in total. Shooting phases like this, where I can target T3 troops without armour saves, almost make me want to play Wood Elves ;)

Image

:: Chaos Turn 2 ::

Everything moves up, although his Warriors probably feel like march-blocked Dwarfs at the moment. His Warhounds turn to face my Eagle.

Magic is 10 v 7. My main priority is Infernal Gateway on Dragon Princes, which is promptly dispelled. In return, Treason is cast on Swordmasters (5 die), Panda goes up again and a helm dies to Flickering Fire. Annoyingly, the Swordmasters panic even with Naenor nearby. They only run 3" however, which is not too bad.

Shooting kills my remaining Helms and 2 Dragon Princes - his Hellcannons again proving accurate (he targetted both at Dragon Princes but one scattered right on top of Silver Helms).

Image

:: High Elves Turn 2 ::

I contemplate my Dragon Princes' charge for what must have been an eternity. Eventually, I decide to decimate the central unit of Marauders: this will keep Saerith in a good position and I can probably Miasma/Eagleblock his Warriors for as long as I need. The Spearelves and Dragon Princes combo-cross-charge them, so the Cavalry can reform against the other Horde later on.

Swordmasters rally, my Western Eagle blocks his Horde from countering me and the Archers turn to face the flanking marauders.

Magic is 8 v 4. I dispel Panda, cast boosted Miasma (a '6' again!) on Warriors. Rest is dispelled (think I tried -T on Marauders).

Shooting sees the Archers kill all but 1 Marauder Horseman, allowing the Repeater to focus on the remaining Horde, killing 3.

Combat - my Cavalry go to town: before the Marauders can strike back, 24 (!!) of them are dead. The remaining 6 manage to kill a couple of Spearelves and Dragon Princes. They fail to roll snake eyes. I combat reform both units (he was below 25% - never rallied), the Spearelves facing the Warriors' approach. Due to 8th edition charge rules, this was barely a useful move as he could almost have wheeled to get to me (infinite range etc).

Image

:: Chaos Turn 3 ::

He charges my pesky Eagle, I hold. His Warhounds start an impossibly long flanking manoevre. His Warriors pretend to be Dwarfs again, advancing 2". His Knights find themselves in an awkward position, unable to intervene when needed the most.

Magic sees gateway go through on Dragon Princes. I hold my breath, but to no need: 3 hits at S4. Only 1 wound, which I save. Treason is dispelled.

Shooting sees a Hellcannon misfire and die, while the other lands yet another hit, killing 2 Dragon Princes.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 3 ::

Swordmasters and Dragon Princes combo-charge his Horde. My remaining Eagle finds itself in a good opportunity - I charge his Sorceror Lord. I'm hoping to not die in 1 round of combat, so I can charge with my Spearelves next time. The Spearelves free reform to get up on the Tzeentchian wizard lord.

Magic - I need to ensure my Eagle can hold out: for this, I have the perfect tool in The Enfeebling Foe. I get 9 dice vs his 4: I start off with -S on his lord, getting -1. Hopefully, it will suffice. Miasma on Warriors again, and they're -1M this time. -T on Marauder Horde is dispelled, however. Hopefully, my Elites can deal enough damage regardless.

Shooting kills the lone Horseman and a couple of Warriors.

Combat sees my kill a lot of marauders, but not nearly enough. He gets a lot of return attacks and kills quite a few Swordmasters (they're down to 3). He still loses though and needs to roll 7- on his Steadfast LD out of General/BSB range. He rolls a 6 and a 2. Strangely enough, my Dragon Princes are now the biggest unit and thus they run to the Western table edge. Both units pursue, my Dragon Princes catching them. They park straight infront of his Knights, the Swordmasters close to the Warhounds. My Eagle takes 1 wound from his Lord, but I have charge + flank. He holds.

Image

:: Chaos Turn 4 ::

I declare Potion of Strength on Drakemaster. Between this and Saerith, it's not the most obvious of charges, yet he makes it. The Warhounds charge the Swordmasters. His Hellcannon fails its test and tries to charge Saerith as well, however he can't reach him. His Warriors fail their march test (even with BSB!) and move forward 3".

Magic is 10 v 5. Treason and Gateway kill 10 Spearelves. The rest is dispelled.

Combat: Saerith declares the use of Loec, however between him and the Drakemaster 'only' 3 knights die (he rolled well for his armour saves). In return, 2 Dragon Princes are killed, leaving only the Drakemaster and Saerith. My steeds finish it off by killing a knight! Break test is passed. Swordmasters kill the dogs. His Lord fails to wound my Eagle.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 4 ::

Naenor and the Spearelves charge his Lord, furious over his magical assault. The Swordmasters advance to counter-charge the Hellcannon next turn.

Magic sees me debuff his Warriors again - giving them -1M and -2T. Shooting proceeds to kill 6 of them.

His Lord loses badly due to static resolution and is run down by my Eagle. Saerith kills the remaining knight, and they reform to face the Hellcannon.

Image

:: Chaos Turn 5 ::

Hellcannon charges my Cavalry. His Warriors try to line up a turn 6 charge on my Archers.

Magic is ineffective, shooting is non-existant.

Combat sees Hellcannon kill the Drakemaster and take 2 wounds in return. The combat is a draw.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 5 ::

I charge Hellcannon with Swordmasters. Eagle blocks the Warriors' Turn 6 charge and my Spearelves free reform for a potential rear charge.

Magic - I cast Okkam's at the Eagle and Miasma on the Warriors (hehe).

Shooting kills a couple of Warriors - they're now down to 10 (including the BSB).

In combat, his Hellcannon is left with 1W and properly kills the Swordmasters. 3 casualties vs 2 wounds + charge means it's a draw.

Image

:: Chaos Turn 6 ::

Not too keen on charging my Eagle, he turns around instead to face my Spearelves, taunting me.

Magic sees pandamonium go through.

In combat, Saerith finally kills the Hellcannon.

Image

:: High Elves Turn 6 ::

I know the battle is won, however my opponent and the remaining observer taunt me into charging the Spearelves into the Warriors. I figure I'll still win even if they die so whatever. The Eagle charges in as well, hopefully adding to the combat resolution.

Magic is weak and I cast a 5-dice Okkam's - getting a double. I forgot about pandamonium, ARGH! As I pick up 2D6 I can visualize Olannon dropping into the Warp with his Archers while my Spears lose combat... The dice come up a total of '5' though - disaster averted! He does however manage to dispel Okkam's and the rest of my dice are drained.

In combat Naenor challenges his BSB and properly slays him! The other Spearelves kill a few Warriors but a LOT of them die in return. My Eagle pitches in with 2 casualties (1 from stomp!) so I win, but not very big. He passes his break test on a very low roll and that's it!

Image

:: Victory Points ::

We didn't bother calculating: I had 3 Banners + his BSB and General, along with a lot more points killed. A clear massacre to the High Elves!

:: Evaluation ::

It was so good to have this game after my Lizardmen game. This game, everything went pretty much as planned and I don't think I made any major mistakes (if you feel I did - please point them out!).

I feel pretty confident playing against Warriors of Chaos - I know most of their tricks and how to counter them. After all, I've faced them the most times now. In this game, my opponent was very frustrated simply because he felt he didn't know how to play better (ie he felt that his moves were good etc and the deployment is kind of unavoidable). To be honest, I don't know what I would've done myself if I faced my army with his. I'm sure he'll appreciate feedback also ;)

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Last edited by Curu Olannon on Mon May 30, 2011 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:48 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12715
Location: Otherworld
That Lizardman list looked a tricky match-up for you to me, as your shooting is only average against all those skinks and the Slann is a problem for your AM. I think I'd have tried to bunch up and punch a hole with my hardest units which looked like what you did but you were a bit unlucky with your charge dice.

Warriors game much smoother. He had a decent list too!

:)

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 7:46 am
Posts: 14
Hi. The lizardmenplayer that played you yesterday here.
Good analysis as always.

As some minor comments on yesterdays game i think that:
1. It was not very sportsmanlike to swap to etheral magelord after you saw the skinks on the table. I spent a lot of my shooting to get to your mage.
2. I had a bad hang over so forgot to use the boundspell forcing tougnestest(no armoursave) on one of your chars till u died or passed.
3. Agree with you totally that you did some mistakes but it was wise to keep more than 24" from my slann.
4. I did a major mistake twodicing shield of thorns, not my first game i have failed casting 5 on two dice. I`m getting a bit greedy sometimes trying to get most spells off. An on top of that not baving moved my skink priest forward so i could use my last 7-8 dice on his spells. (6 on chainlightning on your helms)
5. think that i could and should have intercepted a flank charge from the dp`s in turn 3 by wasting something, i think i should have been able to march some of my skirmishers in between and made the angle off the TG. So that was bad from me. It would have even been worth it wasting my (flying) skink priest for that if all the other units did fail their march test. Any i should also have keept the numbers up more on TG.
6.Agree that your not taking 1. turn was a bad call and that you should have played second turn charges better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:14 am 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
Iniesta wrote:
Hi. The lizardmenplayer that played you yesterday here.
Good analysis as always.

As some minor comments on yesterdays game i think that:
1. It was not very sportsmanlike to swap to etheral magelord after you saw the skinks on the table. I spent a lot of my shooting to get to your mage.
2. I had a bad hang over so forgot to use the boundspell forcing tougnestest(no armoursave) on one of your chars till u died or passed.
3. Agree with you totally that you did some mistakes but it was wise to keep more than 24" from my slann.
4. I did a major mistake twodicing shield of thorns, not my first game i have failed casting 5 on two dice. I`m getting a bit greedy sometimes trying to get most spells off. An on top of that not baving moved my skink priest forward so i could use my last 7-8 dice on his spells. (6 on chainlightning on your helms)
5. think that i could and should have intercepted a flank charge from the dp`s in turn 3 by wasting something, i think i should have been able to march some of my skirmishers in between and made the angle off the TG. So that was bad from me. It would have even been worth it wasting my (flying) skink priest for that if all the other units did fail their march test. Any i should also have keept the numbers up more on TG.
6.Agree that your not taking 1. turn was a bad call and that you should have played second turn charges better.


1. The Ethereal mage lord decision was taken before I got to the club yesterday. I would never alter my list after having seen my opponent's list, as I agree this is poor sportsmanship. Apologies if this was not clear, it was not my intention to make it seem like I did some last minute tailoring, which was not the case: I knew you'd field a lot of Skinks, just not quite as many as you did (which competitive Lizardmen lists do not?).
2. I guess the Slann carries this? Could've changed the game completely.
3. Discarding 6's is a pain, indeed
4. Many members have advocated never to cast Throne on 2 dice when you start off a magic phase as 1 out of 12 times you'll fail and lose the rest
5. With angled skirmishers, the middle would've looked a lot worse for me
6. Agreed completely, but as I noted I'll usually be going second so I should be able to play it this way, too

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Yikes! And I thought I had it bad with the Lizardman shooting. Hats off to you for weathering the storm as best you could. As a first time versus lizardmen, this was definitely a nasty list.


I would've preferred less Skinks and a Stegadon. Surprised he didn't bring any, thought they were quite normal for strong all-comers lists.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
In my gaming group, there's 3 lizardmen players, one of which I play on a fairly regular basis. As such, one of the habits I've gotten myself in to is trying to make sure that I either have a unit somewhere in my deployment zone to cut off scouts (applicable versus other armies too, not just lizards) and/or a solution for dealing with them when they inevitably go down.

I find that you can sometimes use scouts to your advantage - leave a tasty spot in your deployment zone, and they're almost guaranteed to go there. When you know where they're going down, you're one step closer to being able to manage them.


Though Dawn Attack made it a little harder, I should've been able to do the same. Hopefully, next time will be better.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
In this game, unfortunately, your opponent was able to start in on your firing base early with his scouts, limiting your options for dealing with all of those skirmishers.

I find the best way to deal with skink heavy lizardmen - and I failed miserably at this in my last game might I add - is to protect your firing base. Despite the penalties to hit, archers are some of the best tools we have for dealing with swarms of T2 skinks.


I guess you're right. It's just that every turn spent dealing with the Skinks is another turn I have to weather the Slann. I can't really split my army too much either. I think, to accomplish this, I need to deploy better: that would've made a big difference.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Quote:
I totally underestimated his Skinks. I don't know what I should've done to counter this. He could've stand and shot my Swordmasters to death. I could've deployed Dragon Princes on my other flank but this would've left his Salamanders with a clear path to my Spearelves.


Again, I think this is one of the inherent weaknesses of the Shadow lore - although it's great for amplifying the damage of our combat and shooting, I find I'm missing having a direct damage/magic missile spell to help deal with small distraction units, which your opponent had in spades. Awakening the woods would have been pure gold this game, with all of those skinks dancing around in the forests.


With Life I would've taken Seer as I need those 4 spells - Awakening is not among them. Still, point taken about the importance of being able to deal damage at a distance.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Quote:
Magic - I couldn't do anything about his 'taste-my-free-power-dice' spam. A vortex shard would've been nice, but that's just wishful thinking. I couldn't roll what I need for Okkam's either, so overall magic was way in his favour. That being said, I did get a crucial -2S through and he rolled snake eyes for what could've been a game-winning magic phase: Imagine all buffs up, dispelling -2S and Dwellers on Helms. Yep!


Sheesh, tell me about it :P I find the Anullian Crystal helps, but it certainly is one of the toughest magic phases in the game to deal with. When they fail a cast, I feel like I need to kiss a horseshoe or something.


Annulian might've mitigated it somewhat, but I almost never take defensive magic items.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
But overall, it looks like the crucial problem was losing a good portion of your firing base first turn. I think you did one thing right - and this is where I failed in my last game - you assaulted that block of Temple Guard as priority one. If you take down that slann, the tide turns, as it seemed to for you.

Looking forward to the next one!


Yes, I've never lost my entire fire base before. Even if I had deployed correctly, I don't know how to keep them all away while getting to the Temple Guard fast enough. There are just so many Skinks! Shooting could solve some of it, but I'd still have to dedicate something to it. A unit of 5 DP would've been perfect, but dedicating a Hammer seriously limits my options with regards to engaging his combat blocks.

The lack of a Stegadon just allowed so many models on the table. I suppose this works well against poorly armoured, expensive troops. Poison really shines and his shooting hurts.

Next game's up - if you hadn't noticed already ;) Tonight, I'm playing against Wood Elves again!

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:27 am
Posts: 579
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Now the Warriors game certainly was more like it!

Great job combining your units to generate enough damage that you reduce the number of hits coming back at you. This is key with high elves (especially shadow magic weilding ones), and you did it here in spades.

Only one thing I would comment on in this match - In turn 4, I would have probably split up the drakemaster and the Prince. Let the prince tank the hellcannon (he's so well suited for this it isn't even funny) and run off with the drakemaster to preserve the points for the entire unit of Dragon Princes. In this game it didn't matter, but in other games this move might enable you to get a massacre where you otherwise wouldn't have!

A couple comments for the Warrior player too:

To me hellcannons are a big risk. S5 templates are badass, no doubt about it, however the hellcannons are by far the most expensive way to get one. I think the grudge thrower with S5 and a reroll on the scatter dice is 130 someodd points? Part of the problem is that you're paying for monster stats as well. This puts hellcannons in a weird in-between stage - should they be attacking or shooting? With so many points invested in Hellcannons, it becomes imperative that they do significant damage, however their relative inaccuracy (nothing to mitigate scatters) and unreliability in the form of a brutal misfire table makes it difficult to achieve this. I find they're all or nothing - they'll either win big or lose big. The more of them you take, the more this becomes true.

The other point I'll make is regarding the Marauder hordes. I'm sure it became painfully clear during this match just how cumbersome hordes can be, especially on those 25mm bases. Marauders can pack a lot of punch in horde formation, but at the end of the day this doesn't matter if you can't bring that force to bear. Too many times I've played versus the Warriors players in my local group and seen one of those hordes struggle to do anything effective due to the ease at which an opponent can block charges and prevent wheels. The other problem is that with such a wide frontage, they really open themselves up to a ton of incoming damage. A block with 10 ranks instead of 10 wide could have easily held on steadfast versus the dragon prince charge, but the horde formation allowed punishing combo charges, which were made especially effective by ASF, high initiative elves. Finally, when one of these massive units falls, it leaves a huge hole in your battle line. In this match, Curu punched your block, then successfully put two of his own units in the middle of your battle line and divided your army. This led to more combo charges, and so on and so forth.




Looking forward to your match tonight Curu! Is it the same wood elf player?

_________________
There is nothing do fear but fear itself... well, that and Toughness tests.

Check out my Army Blog for tactics, battle reports and general ramblings: Brewmaster D's Coven of Light Army List Blog
The Art of Deployment
Writing Army Lists


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Posts: 204
Yes :D

The report will show whether I learned from our previous engagement. Suffice to say, so far it looks like I have a capable team-mate for the club campaign.

_________________
Army blog: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=43579


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 1627 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 55  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group