HE MSU in the Old World - Game 1 - 2000 vs Warriors of Chaos - 2024/03/04

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: MSU HE - on High Magic and Light Lore (long)

#271 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Low magic you say? :) It seems that you have already invested ~500 points in magic and it is probably 550+ with banner of sorcery as I don't think with Shadow you can have efficient magic phase relying on winds of magic alone.

The question is in what way particular magic lore can be used with a single archmage with crystal to benefit MSU army? And how to make it work? In the case of High Magic it is possible because any spell you cast brings some advantage to you. Also, with its low cost casting values you can choose between casting fewer spells with greater chance to get them through or more of them with fewer dice per spell.

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Re: MSU HE - on High Magic and Light Lore (long)

#272 Post by SpellArcher »

This philosophy, to cover defence yet retain an offensive phase with a solo Archmage is common to my army and to Seredain's also. It is no coincidence that we all run High Magic. Or that we tend towards smaller, more flexible units.

Rabidnid's Shadow phase is more expensive but has more potential to inflict damage I think.

IMHO Light would work for you Swordmaster because of the Crystal. It would not work for me. Partly due to my slightly larger units but mainly because I cannot fit the Crystal. Instead I rely on Flames and Drain, hence Banner of Sorcery to hammer these home. Seredain has his scroll, hence can get by without the Banner.

Interesting to compare points invested by each. 300, 285, 280. Very close!

:)
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Re: MSU HE - on High Magic and Light Lore (long)

#273 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Well, with bow of seafarer it is 360 now :) It is still an interesting solution as it gives something more to do for a mage than casting spells.

It is still interesting to discuss what role your wizards are to fulfill in the context of the army. Main role I see for the Archmage in mine is to disrupt enemy magic phase. Hence I take Archmage rather than level 2's, I take Crystal (although other items are good too) and last but not least I like to have that Drain Magic.

But then what this particular MSU army might need in terms of casting spells? Well, Shield is good no matter what and is easy to cast. With bows and magic bows, Curse seem to be good spell too (it was good anyway :)). Courage might help to hold the line with units which will not be steadfast due to various reasons, Fury is always good to have, Flames can thin down some big regiments which always helps to deal with them and Vauls is simply great at getting rid of some nasty items which might hurt the army if left active. However, this can be said also for other armies so it is not necessary aiding MSU better than anything else.

If I were to switch to another lore I would need to look at something that compensates the loss of Drain Magic, is still relatively easy to cast for a single archmage and aids MSU style. I think I need a review of magic lores, even if for reminder what spells can do.

What do you think? Which magic lore (other than High or Light as we have already discussed it :)) and why would be good for MSU?

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - on High Magic and Light Lore (long)

#274 Post by SpellArcher »

Have to say I've always excluded items things that don't contribute directly to the magic phase when assessing points spent Swordmaster. Similarly, Seredain excludes his 45pt Robe. I do like the idea of giving my Archmage something else to do but I've only got five points free! Maybe Dragonbane Gem and have a laugh charging Flamers or something...

That's interesting about the role of your Archmage. Seredain's attitude seems to be that his guy is there to help the rest of his army work better. I just can't focus defensively, I want to be causing mischief in the magic phase! I have to say, I think Courage is especially suited to armies with small/medium units rather than a few big blocks.

I'll have a think about other Lores...
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#275 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher,

I had another game with Bow of Seafarer and I am not happy with it on my Archmage. I have found out I want him in the open to have a clear shot while at the same time I want him hidden to keep him safe. I ended up losing him and he achieved none of the mentioned goals, he was not safe and he didn't have a clear shot. Also, with his BS 4 it is too easy to miss.

Hence I am dropping Bow of Seafarer and now I need to decide how to use these points elsewhere. What would be your suggestion? Maybe there is something I haven't tried yet?

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#276 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Foliarth's Robes and Talisman of Saphery? Thats my default equipment. You can use him more aggressively, within reason, and he becomes a good roadblock for big, non-magical gribblies. :3
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#277 Post by SpellArcher »

Good idea Milliardo. I guess Swordmaster would have to cut the Crystal to a Scroll. Alternatively he could just take the Robe, possibly adding the Opal Amulet to taste. Folariath's seems to be almost standard kit in the US for example, as far as I can tell.

Then there's simply the 4+ Ward option, or maybe Loremaster's Cloak. I guess it depends on where you see the need though Swordmaster?
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#278 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for suggestions! :)

Well, first of all I want to keep the crystal, I think it helps the army better. In that case the unkillable mage is not possible to build. Besides, even if I were to take the robes, I would not like to combine it with Talisman. Very efficient and works perfectly but I don't think people like it. Also, if I were to go for a tournament I can be sure I would be penalized for that combination, as they have a special comp system here. And in the end, I do not feel the need for such combination :)

Now, I can do something with 60 points in two ways. Either give the Archmage another toy or bring more bodies to the field.

1. Archmage

In my last game against jwg20 I saw how potent his magic is, also thanks to bound spells. So Ring of Fury could be an interesting addition and definitely useful one too.

I consider Robes as well, as despite the fact I have so many units they often need to charge in and often fast. So I could keep the mage in a regiment. Or run him alone with a little extra consideration for magic missiles.

But there are a lot of other magic items he could take and I wonder if there are any I haven't tried yet and which might be helpful. Since I have used arcane item slot already it leaves me with talismans, enchanted items and ... magic weapons. Often fencers blades are there to help the wizard in other armies. I haven't really thought about that option but I am just saying I am ready to explore completely new options :)

2. More bodies

It can be as simple as adding one more eagle or 4 more swordmasters. It can be used to upgrade one to a champion and give him Amulet of Light for example. Or get back Drakemaster with Foebane. I have 63 points to use in special section to reach the 1250 points limit for 2500 army, so this is the only thing I need to take into account.

All these options can add a little to the army. Bound spells are good to make the magic offence stronger. Cheap items on champions can give a little advantage against some regiments I might have difficulties to fight against. The same goes for Robes which give me the opportunity to stop some nasty monsters.

Which one would you choose (including the options I haven't explored yet) and why?

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#279 Post by sulannar »

I am such a bad lurker!!

This is the first time I have really got my teeth into this army blog and I LOVE IT!!

I think your army and motives are brilliant. I think along much the same lines and will more than likely stealing a few ideas from your army lists and tactics.

Keep up the good work

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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#280 Post by jwg20 »

I think the amulet of light could aid you greatly. As of now, you have reaver bow and fury of khaine if you roll it to counter etherals. While these can work, fury requires you to actually get it, and reaver bow, even if perfect, requires at least 2 rounds to drop a spirit host. As many VC players take at least 2-3 of them, you could be in trouble, as few if any of your units have the static CR to crumble it in one round (even your seaguard take 2 rounds to crumble it assuming it deals no wounds).

I also agree that ring of fury or ruby ring could be nice, as they give you a little more to counter either chaff or etherals. I think this would actually be more useful. I'd probably go for fury if you have the pts on the lord for the item, as 2D6 S4 is better than D6 S4 flaming in general. Also, nice thing about bound items is that an untimely miscast doesn't kill your magic phase as much as it would normally with only one mage.

More models per unit is good, but I don't think it would serve you as well as a bound item. You already have enough units you aren't afraid to flee with, so another eagle isn't going to do too much in most situations, and I think the addition of an item that eliminates chaff or annoying etherals would be most useful to you.

Just some thoughts. Let me know when you want another game in!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#281 Post by SpellArcher »

I run Reaver Bow and four selection dice High Magic and am adding Amulet of Light to my list. I think that altogether is enough to deal with Ethereals. You might not roll Fury but Flames will deal with most Ethereals (not Spirit Hosts I guess). Curse also helps the Bow to hit.

That said Ring of Fury looks like a decent pick here.
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#282 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ sulannar

Thanks! Feel free to use anything you consider worthy, there is no trademark or copyrights, so no need to steal :D

@ jwg20

The main problem with all these toys is that it is hard to have them all. :) I like Amulet, I like the Ring and I like Robes too! This time I decided to go for Archmage protection. Robes will also give me the opportunity to block some nasty monsters without magic attacks such as tank or sphinx. So it is not that selfish as it also helps the army. :) But I am also sure it is just another incarnation of the army and I will simply keep trying this and that just to see how it works. I might settle down with one particular army list but there is a chance such little changes will be present all the time.

As to the game I will let you know. I have this 3 day tournament now and so I might be busy with reports writing but we will have our rematch!

@ SpellArcher

Another way I try to look at choices I make is how flexible they are. There might be a problem with ethereal creatures but they are only in one army. It might be that this time I will fight only against vampires and I do not mind pay 15 points for cheap item that can help a lot. But it might be viable to have a look at something which can help more often and I might need that 15 points to get it. This was the case of the Robes, in order to afford it I had to forget about the Amulet.

In the end there is no right or wrong, I will simply have to check different options and see how they work.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 18.05

#283 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I took the following army to the 3 days/8 games tournament:

Archmage, Annulian Crystal, Foliarath's Robes - High Magic
BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Reaver Bow, Dragonhelm

10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician
15 LSG, Full Command
15 LSG, Full Command

10 Swordmasters, Musician
10 Swordmasters, Musician
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant
5 Dragon Princes
5 Dragon Princes
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician

Great Eagle
Great Eagle

There were no Vampire Counts and I didn't fight against Wood Elves either so magical attacks were not required this time. The Robes didn't make any difference either since there were either immediate threats which were magical in their nature that the Archmage could not avoid or there was no danger to him at all. That does not say Amulet of Light is not good addition or that the Robes are poor investment.

I am very happy with that list, however, and Reaver Bow is a great addition. BSB is very versatile now and I am definitely going to use him in this configuration while thinking about suitable conversion to represent the model in an appropriate way.

Having said that I am considering a group of Shadow Warriors as bodygouards for my characters. I can keep them behind the lines but close to provide inspiring presence. They can also march move and shoot so BSB would benefit from extra mobility. I could use them as scouts too if I wanted which also adds to the flexibility of the list. However, to do so I would need to drop something and from the special section too.

Opinions?
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#284 Post by SpellArcher »

I really like the idea of the Shadow Warriors. But indeed what would you drop for them Swordmaster? How did the double Reavers go here, as they might be an obvious place to look for a swap? The other thing is that a unit of 10 Archers can do some of the jobs of the SW's (shoot, fight light combats, temporarily bunker the Reaver BSB) and of course they are Core. There's no denying the extra options the SW's would give you though. How do you feel about the Scouting vs +1 for first turn issue?

How have the magic items on your Lions been going? I imagine the Gleaming Pennant lets this unit operate in isolation if it has to? How often does the Flaming banner help and are there occasions where it is a negative? Even if it only helps now and then I feel Amulet of Light is worth a go but of course this has to be weighed up against the desire to maximise numbers.

As you know I run an army with unit sizes the same as or a bit bigger than your own. I've now made a conscious decision to take multiple magic items that let each unit tackle certain things for me. This is great if I get the right match-ups but of course depletes numbers.

Anyway, glad the list is playing to your satisfaction!

:)
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#285 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher!

Reavers are great! That is why it would be such a difficult decision. I hope I will highlight their performance better in following battle reports but the fact I had them did help a lot. The thing is that this particular change is something I find good addition on its own but not because something does not work in the army as such. I might keep playing with the list I have just posted for a while but there is no harm in discussing some possibilities :)

+1 due to scouts for roll-off for 1st turn is hardly an issue as I deploy last anyway.

I didn't need flaming banner that much this time although there were a few moments where I didn't have to take fear test (like when fighting against Knights of Chaos). Gleaming Pennant is fantastic and does help to use this unit away from BSB bubble. Which helps a lot on "the other flank" when I might need to expose lions for a charge to force the attack and be able to counter attack.

I would very much like to add Amulet of Light and I might do it by reducing Swordmasters to 9 each. Or leave the Robes at home :) But I agree that these cheap magic items are great and might have a better impact on a game. Even if sometimes they seem to be useless. However, if I were to play in a bigger tournament then the chance to play against ethereal creatures would be higher. Also, many HE archmages do like the very fashionable Robes so that could help as well. :)

In any case I feel that I am set on the army list at the moment and it only requires to decide how to polish it off with some nice cheap items here and there.

I am as always opened for suggestions since there are many armies I haven't played against yet and maybe there are things I should consider which haven't been tried yet.

Thanks!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#286 Post by SpellArcher »

Even from your first battle Swordmaster I see what you mean about the Reavers. One unit was depleted but you had the second unit handy. The Amulet of Light could also be useful vs Ethereal Slann and K'daai.

First turn might be an issue if your opponent also has Scouts but not a huge one I feel.

I find an army almost selects itself. Gameplay shows what needs to be changed and you amend accordingly. For example Seredain likes Reavers in general but finds other units more important to the way his army works. I feel the same with Shadow Warriors.
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#287 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi SpellArcher,

Indeed, playing against certain enemies in particular may have that effect on your army that it tends to shape itself a little. I am sure that if I were to play VC I would feel at loss without Amulet of Light. Having the Robes meant I didn't have to worry that much about my Archmage being vulnerable in combat either. Speaking of which, would you include Amulet or the Robes first if you were to choose between these two?

And on the topic of cheap magic items, there are still many others which can be very useful so I will be checking these for some ideas anyway :)

As to Shadow Warriors it is at this stage more curiosity than necessity. But I see more and more often that people use skirmishers as bodyguards for their wizards. Since we do not have them in core selection and the only unit with that rule is Shadow Warriors it is just a food for thought.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#288 Post by SpellArcher »

I would take the Amulet. For my last event I was going to give it to my Swordmasters but kept Skeinsliver instead and put a magic sword on my DP champ. First game I face 2x6 Treekin! With the Amulet my unit is favourite, without it the Treekin are. Though of course it is against VC's that you really need it.

The Robe by contrast gives you more tactical options but it doesn't plug that small gap that could be fatal against VC. Once again I agree with Seredain here. I would rather take a small hit against most armies than leave myself at a grave disadvantage vs one. I intend never to face an opponent believing that I cannot win.

I do think Shadow Warriors make more sense for your list than mine Swordmaster. They unlock some of the BSB's potential in particular. Maybe you will feel at some point that another of your units is no longer so necessary. Then the SW's could be the answer.
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 12.06

#289 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I remember asking about Shadow Warriors in your army ages ago, I feel they could allow you to surround your enemies even quicker, but after suggesting them I struggled to find room for them ^_^'
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 14.06

#290 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ SpellArcher

Hm, that might be indeed a good approach. What is more I had some games where the Robes were nullified and I was lucky not to lose the Archmage. In order to accommodate the Amulet I need to drop the Robes and if I include it on the Bladelord then it would cost me 27 points. I will have 22 points to spare then. One of the options is to upgrade second unit of Swordmasters to have Bladelord too and give somebody either single 10pts worth item or 2 x 5 pts ones. There are some interesting options to choose from :)

@ Elessehta

I do remember that :) As you say, it is hard to find room for them though. And as I think I will be able to show in my other reports, two units of Reavers are really good while SW might not always be able to scout. What is more, I would be more inclined to use them as companions to BSB rather than letting them scout behind enemy lines.

Well, at the moment it is about Amulet of Light and the use of points saved after selling robes which seem to be taken by almost every single archmage :)

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 14.06

#291 Post by pk-ng »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi guys!
...I will have 22 points to spare then. One of the options is to upgrade second unit of Swordmasters to have Bladelord too and give somebody either single 10pts worth item...
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 14.06

#292 Post by SpellArcher »

There's an issue here, which is that an army like mine is designed to deliver a ton of damage over a small frontage, concentration of force. To this end it spends plenty of points on magic items and a combat Prince. I don't think Swordmaster's army works like this. Instead he has more bodies and relies more on maneouvre, often enveloping the foe. Of course any army with 50 HE elites is going to hit relatively hard. The question is though, at what point do you stop adding magic items and instead buy more troops Swordmaster?

As you say, you have to buy the Bladelord to carry Amulet of Light and would have to also for Loec. Overall, I think having either a champion or a std bearer on each unit of elite infantry is a reasonable balance. The champions are useful for challenges.
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 16.06

#293 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

I think I will try to see how Bladelords, one with Amulet and the other with Talisman, are going to work with the army. Both items might not be used at all but I am curious about their impact when they do. The Archmage will be kind of naked again so I need to be careful with him again. It was a good feeling to have him immune to mundane attacks and be able to simply keep him in the units but I think it is worth trying.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - updated BR list 4.07

#294 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

High Elves MSU - observations

1. Introduction

After 30+ games with MSU (Multiple Small Units) army I think it might be good to get some summary on the observations I have made so far. I really like the concept of the army and I enjoy playing with it a lot. In fact, I have never enjoyed Warhammer as I am enjoying it now!

Bear in mind I am simply sharing my experiences. I do not aim to prove that this is the best way to play with High Elves. Please, do not treat it as a proper tactics article either. I do not have enough experience to write one. Which is good as I can always add something new! I am sure I will learn a lot with more battles and with more different opponents and armies I am going to meet.

You are more than welcome to add your thoughts and share your own experiences. I am writing this with particular army and style of play in mind but there are elements which can be used elsewhere.

2. General principles

MSU idea appeared for the first time on Druchii.net in 7th (or maybe even 6th) edition. Back then it relied on the principle that if you kill enough enemies then there will be no one to hit you back. Thanks to that a small regiment of elite warriors charging from the flank could break much larger unit of less skilled soldiers simply by the virtue of more attacks it could deliver at the same frontage.

With 8th edition a lot of new rules appeared. In particular steadfast and step up seemed to favour big hordes and nothing else. No matter how many foe small regiment can kill there always will be some more to fight, especially that it is hard to break them on the charge and after that they can reform to bring more warriors to fight. This would mean war of attrition in which small elite regiments are often doomed. It looked like MSU armies have no right to be efficient anymore.

However, MSU can still be as good approach to the game as any and what is more it can also use new rules 8th edition provides to its advantage. SmithF reintroduced the concept and I recommend his excellent topic on MSU in general as well as battle log (which he started to update with new reports again):

SmithF on MSU

SmithF - Battle Log

Here, I am going to to talk about MSU from the point of view of High Elves.

The main principle of MSU approach is that with more units you are able to use movement phase more efficiently to create much more favourable combats than just when you clash two big regiments head to head.

Example

Image Image

3 units of 10 Swordmasters can set up a trap for 30 Warriors of Chaos. By fleeing with one the other two can attack the flanks of the bigger regiment.

It is of course an ideal situation but illustrates the principle very well. Big unit of Chaos Warriors uses horde rule to maximize the number of its attacks but only to the front. Instead of engaging it head to head in bloody combat Swordmasters surround its flanks and while hitting with their full number of attacks, they robe bigger unit of its advantage. Only 3 warriors at each flank can fight, they cannot use horde and step up attacks rules and are also engaged from both flanks which means they will not be able to reform if they are not going to break first. In such situation small units would also sustain smaller amount of damage than a single unit fighting from the front. Even if big unit of warriors is going to hold after an initial attack they will melt quicker in subsequent rounds of combat.

Basically with the advantage of having more regiments it is possible to control movement phase better so that one can have an opportunity to create situations where even big and dangerous units can be defeated.

3. MSU army components

I am going to describe components which in my opinion the HE MSU army requires to have to operate properly.

3.1. Multiple Small Units

It is important to understand that “small” is a relative term. Some other armies, with access to cheaper soldiers may still have successful army lists which at the same time contain regiments with 20-30 warriors. “Small” is more connected to the point cost of a unit. Even in High Elf force one can use regiments of 20+ Spearelves in a similar fashion as with more regular forces and it will not be against the principles of MSU army.

My personal approach is to have regiments with cost 150-200 points and only with some exceptions if I feel it is justified to do so. With many, relatively not expensive regiments you do not present juicy target, you confuse the enemy as to what to attack and even if you lose some unit that loss is significantly smaller and not as crippling as it might have been in the case of bigger unit.

3.2. Characters

The same goes with characters, if I include expensive ones and/or many of them I might find out I do not have enough points left to have significantly more regiments than my opponent thus denying myself the advantage to out-deploy him. A hero in HE army, fully equipped is worth 150-200 points. It is the cost of a regiment in an MSU army.

This is not to say that you should avoid including characters. If you have a good idea for a hero then go for it! Just remember that with MSU army such an expensive target will be even more tempting for the enemy to focus on. And this is something you want avoid too.

It is also important to try and assign multiple roles for your expensive heroes. With so many small regiments some of the typical builds for characters might not be as efficient or as necessary. For example, BSB with Armor of Caledor and Dawnstone does not add that much to MSU army as he does to the unit of 35 Spearelves in a more traditional force.

My own approach is to take the minimum of characters and for me it means the Archmage as a magical defense and BSB for his re-rolls and ranged attacks (Reaver Bow). They are still expensive and fragile so it is crucial to keep them safe.

3.3. High Strength/Numerous Attacks

MSU army relies on inflicting multitudes of wounds while minimizing attacks hitting it back so it is important to include units which provide high strength and numerous attacks. Swordmasters, White Lions, Dragon Princes but also Spearelves and Lothern Sea Guard can be very useful here. If you choose to pick only one type of unit it can be as good as variety of them as long as you know how you want to use them.

Personally I go for variety so I can better use the tools I have. Sometimes it is better to send Swordmasters in, sometimes White Lions have the edge and sometimes a lot of S3 attacks LSG and/or Spearelves provide can be much more useful.

3.4. Stubborn Troops

It is quite important to have some stubborn regiments in the MSU army (since we don’t really have Immune to Psychology units I am not going to talk about it here). It is because sometimes you can force a charge from the enemy, hold it in one place and thanks to that you will be able to attack its flanks. There are many foes who can inflict 10+ wounds to our fragile elves so be careful how you use small units of White Lions. However, it is one of the very useful options when Lions get close to the enemy, block their movement or at least limit the options and force a difficult decision. To charge and suffer from 10+ ASF, S6 attacks and be flanked later or not to charge but receive the charge following turn.

3.5. Shooting

MSU army is a combat orientated one but it does benefit from some bow fire and some players like to include war machines too. It is mainly to get rid of support units of the enemy so that the control of the movement phase is better, even if MSU force usually can deal with such regiments in close combat too.

Concentrated fire on a big horde unit might seem to be a waste of arrows but it can be useful to break steadfast during incoming fights and because of that every arrow counts!

There are also targets, such as fanatics or lone models which can be troublesome (or deny victory points if not destroyed) but which can be easily finished off with 10 archers.

3.6. Support troops

As much as it is tempting to use only heavy hitters in your army with a minimum of Archers there is a great need for support regiments in MSU army. The most often use of such units is to divert powerful foe so that other units can swarm on other targets or to position it in a less favourable way.

Other duties such as war machine hunting, wizards hunting or fighting against enemy support troops can be performed by such units. Great eagles, Ellyrian Reavers, chariots or shadow warriors can all be used to great effect.

Units of Archers, Sea Guard and Spearelves (especially when suffered casualties in the game) can be used for that duty too. In general it is worth remembering that each unit can always have (or should have) a secondary role to play so that you are never out of tactical options and there is always a way to come up with another plan.

3.7. Magic

Main role of Magic is defensive rather. It is there to provide better chance to dispel enemy spells. From that point of view a single Archmage, who also acts as a general and inspires nearby troops (Ld9 is always better than Ld8 after all), is usually enough to provide very reasonable protection. His +5 to dispel roll is very good indeed. To further increase his abilities I add Annulian Crystal from his magic items allowance. High Elves have other very good Arcane items which can boost magical defences but I personally find the Crystal the best option. I will talk more about other items later when I am going to analyze particular army list as an example.

It is not to say, however, that a single Archmage is not able to cast spells successfully. Hence it is also important to consider Magic Lore to support your MSU army. Yes, to support. Magic can be the main weapon of the army but it is not so in MSU force. You need to be prepared for phases when magic is not strong enough to get your spells through and still be able to win. If you, however, can cast spells then it will be a nice bonus.

I think that any magic lore can be used for MSU army. It is really a matter of taste and personal approach. Of course, Life spells for example seem to benefit horde formations more but as always it is up to the player to make his tools workable. There is nothing to say you cannot have support mage and/or Banner of Sorcery in MSU army either. Just remember it is costly investment and one more mage is one less regiment.

No matter which way you choose it is important to consider how easy spells from particular Lore are cast. With single Archmage you might find it quite difficult to cast powerful spells so maybe it is a better path to go for spells of a less spectacular effect but which can be cast easier. You also need to know exactly in what way you want your magic to support your troops.

I chose High Magic because it has cheap spells to cast and any choice of spells you end up with will help. They are not as spectacular as some spells from the rulebook but I managed to use them to great effect in my games and there were a few times when they did have a huge impact.

3.8. Command groups

Some regiments have them some don’t but wherever it was possible I included musicians. They are essential for swift reforms and add greatly to the maneuverability of the army. They are the first members of the command groups I take.

Some regiments have champions. I have found out it is handy to have them here and there to stop powerful character. Champion can challenge thus ensuring the unit will remain steadfast for a turn. This can help to organize the defense better and even make a counter charge in the following turn if required or buy that extra turn for the rest of the army.

Some other units have banners. One reason is to increase fortitude points for Blood and Glory scenarios but can be useful in combat too. On the other hand I wanted to avoid too many of them as first they decrease the number of warriors and second give free victory points which are far easier earned from small regiments.

4. Army List Examples

I am going to describe the choices I took for my current Army List (which is constantly evolving) as an example. Then I will also present a different MSU army list for comparison.

4.1. My current army list

Archmage, Annulian Crystal, High Magic – 300

Army general and its only spell caster. His main duty is to provide +5 dispel bonus. To further augment his defensive skills he has Annulian Crystal which helps enormously. He is also very vulnerable so I need to be very careful with his placement.

As I have mentioned before he uses High Magic, a very versatile although less spectacular magic lore. Its strength also lies in low casting values so even with very weak winds of magic he is capable of casting some spells.

In the meantime I have also tried some additional equipment such as Dragonbane Gem (2+ ward against flaming attacks), Bow of Seafarer (bolt thrower) or Folariath’s Robes (immune to non-magical attacks). The Robes are quite useful and I might yet find out myself returning to that item. The bow was an interesting experience but his BS4 is a little too low for such a potent weapon to be used to the fullest.

There are plenty of other useful items for this character and I am sure I might try some new equipment but his main role is the same regardless. Provide magical defense, inspire nearby troops and support them with cheap but useful spells whenever possible.

Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Reaver Bow, Dragon Helm – 174

Battle Standard Bearer seems to be a must in every army and MSU force is no exception, although in this case his usefulness comes mainly for all other Ld tests and slightly less for break tests. High Elves have good Ld but they are still not immune to psychology. You might be surprised how many tests your army is forced to take in one game, especially against undead and daemons. This re-roll is very handy and you should make sure your BSB is close enough to lend it to units which need it the most. He cannot be everywhere and it is even more so in the case of MSU army, often widely spread across the battle field. That is why his initial placement and moves later in the game should be considered carefully.

Since our characters are expensive and there are few of them in MSU army there is even a greater need to use them in multiple roles. That is why BSB is equipped with a Reaver Bow. With his BS6 these 3 S5 shots per turn can be very helpful. He can wound tougher targets, he can hit obscured ones with better chance and can be the bane of lone characters too. You can treat his bow as an equivalent of a magic missile with that difference that he always has 3 shots but does not suffer from miscasts and does not take away power dice.

Great Weapon is a very useful addition but he is not to take part in combat unless absolutely necessary. Even then it can be very risky as his armour is not that great and he can be relatively easily wounded and killed. However, GW and ASF make sure that some of the enemies will think twice before they attack him or unit he joined.

2 x 10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician – 2 x 125

Very good support troops, add a little long range firepower, useful mainly in weakening lightly armoured targets so good at killing enemy support regiments from afar.

Sometimes can also be used as a flanking regiment and since they also benefit from ASF rule it can be as good option as any. They are not shock troops so do not expect them to do much against close combat specialist and it might even be a suicide. But timely charge at a flank of an enemy in narrow formation in addition to the charge to the front can give you that extra +1 from flank charge and might disrupt enemy ranks too.

In dire situation they can also be used as diverters and be sacrificed to enable other regiments to destroy the enemy unit but that is not their primary role.

Light armor might look as a waste of points but I include it due to the fact the miniatures I use do have armor and once in a while I am glad I have that 6+ armor save as there are some enemies who do strike at S3. 1 wound less might be that 1 wound difference between the victory and defeat.

2 x 15 Lothern Sea Guard, Full Command – 2 x 220

They are included for their versatility. Additional 30 bows can help in quicker elimination of support troops and is always annoying for the enemy, no matter of they really inflict any damage. However, they are not archers with better armor. They can and often should be used in combat. Or at least make a threat they can.

I really like the fact I can keep them moving and still be able to shoot. They are not going to fight on their own but their additional rank, especially when charging from the flank, can be very helpful. They are not that big unit either and are not as strong magnets to template weapons as Spearelves in deep formation can be. Although I noticed that my enemies still try to target them with such attacks.

They are not easy to use as their role is not well specified and depends a lot on the enemy they face. They even can start the game as archers to join the fight where required to turn into archers again if some stragglers need to be finished in the last turns.
Their strength lies in flexibility and I really like them in my army as there is always something for them to do. Either in shooting or movement and combat phases.

10 White Lions, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 178
10 White Lions, Musician, Gleaming Pennant - 173

First two regiments out of six heavy hitters I included in the army. Probably the most versatile units too as they are as good in attack as in defense. Due to stubborn they often are used as baits which are difficult to ignore because they can attack following turn but when charged can deal significant damage too. Banner of Eternal Flame makes them perfect monsters hunters and with many deployment drops there is always a way to position them in the right spot to do so. Gleaming Pennant is excellent if the unit needs to operate outside of the BSB range but has to perform anvil duty and stop some powerful enemy long enough for other regiments to be able to counter charge. They often occupy the center of the line (or close to it) as it is the best position to intercept enemy units and are close to help other regiments.

10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light - 183
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec - 178

The most killy units of the army and kind of its special forces. It is amazing how much fear they cause in opponents even at such a small number. I have run units without Bladelords so far but I included them to have magical attacks and Talisman of Loec is an experiment. They used to operate closely with Spearelves when I used them so that they did the killing while Spearelves added static combat resolution and together they were very good teams even for frontal attacks against some units. Now they are a junction between sea guard and lions and often these 3 units operate as a task force, supporting each other.

They are of course very fragile. Any protection they can get is good. For example I sometimes placed them behind single line of White Lions to provide additional -2 to hit penalty if the enemy wanted to shoot them while Lions benefit from their Lion Pelts protection.

As dangerous as they are they might have problems with 1+ armor save and are definitely better against anything that is not that well protected. That is why they often can operate with Lions so that sheer number of attacks prevails one way or another. Having said that small units of knights are usually equally quickly defeated by Swordmasters as by Lions. Even chaos knights and knights of Empire might be very reluctant to charge them in the frontal attack. Only Mournfangs and Demigryphs are dangerous enough to win against them in one-on-one combats (and usually on the charge) so it is important to choose fights wisely.

2 x 5 Dragon Princes – 2 x 150

Many players think cavalry has no use in 8th edition anymore. It seems some got used to the fact that knights used to break any foe in a single glorious charge. It is not that easy when infantry can be steadfast.

Some player like to field big units of heavy cavalry with powerful characters. A typical hammer unit which can indeed deal a lot of damage.

But what about small heavy cavalry regiments operating without powerful but expensive characters? I think they still have uses and can be great too. Hence 2 units of 5 Dragon Princes each instead of more Swordmasters or Lions.

Dragon Princes are still shock troops in this army but although they are not able to pack as many attacks on narrow frontage as Swordmasters and they hit with S5 instead of S6 like Lions they have the advantage of armor and charge distance. There are enemies out there which are quite dangerous to small infantry units. Chariots are very good example. Their impact hits mean ASF is less of an asset. Often the enemy can have 2 or more of them heading towards a single unit and small regiment might not even survive to hit back. Dragon Princes are good at intercepting such threats.

Since they have a longer charge range and benefit from swifstride rule their charge is more likely to hit home even at longer distance. They can perform a swift outflanking move and be ready for a coordinated charge when infantry might need another turn to get to the position.

They can be very good at destroying enemy shooters as they can withstand the fire infantry is much more vulnerable to. They can double as war machines hunters and monsters hunters, especially that the enemy beasts cannot stomp/thunderstomp them.
If I could find some points I would give them musicians too as they are even more efficient with their swift reform ability.

2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Spears, Musicians – 2 x 112

Light cavalry also seems to be less popular choice. They don’t hit as hard as heavy cavalry, are more expensive than eagles and take away points which could be spent on other special regiments. What is more with so many units do one really needs another fast regiment?

While it is all true I really like them in my army and I think the difficulty in their use is similar as with Sea Guard. On the first glance they seem like a unit which is not good at anything in particular and on top of that other regiments can do specific things better. But the more I use them (and Sea Guard too) the more I am glad to have multi-purpose regiments as they greatly add to the flexibility of my army.

First thing Reavers add is redundancy. While I have eagles to divert and hunt war machines they are often first targets for shooting and magic missiles. Reavers can do that to and it is more difficult to get rid of all of them quickly. They also hit harder than eagles thanks to re-rolls and more attacks so can be used as shock troops too. My reavers hunted down a little more resilient troops such as chariots or Razorgors thanks to their speed, spears and ASF. They are also much more efficient at destroying war machines, especially from Dwarven armies.

Flexibility is also the reason why I equip them with bows. Sometimes having only 5 shots is not great. But sometimes you only need to inflict 1 more wound and your archers might be in bad spot or simply you don’t want to waste so many arrows. Reavers are usually close enough to have that 4+ to hit after they moved and it is more difficult for the enemy to hide from them. There is also kind of psychological effect to that as people tend to make mistakes when annoyed by light cavalry shooting at them all the time. And they always can aim at the same target as other units so I can focus the fire for greater effect.

Last but not least their ability to flee and then reform and keep moving is a great asset. It can help you to bait the enemy so that they break formation and then return to the position where they cannot be attacked but which enables them to go to the rear. Their speed and maneuverability is a huge asset and a weapon in itself although not as straightforward in use as in the case of other regiments.

2 x Great Eagle – 2 x 50

The eagles are so useful for any type of HE army that there is a separate topic about tips and tricks how to use them. They are as much needed in MSU army despite its greater maneuverability. They are very handy when there is a need to trap that big, fat enemy unit so that your regiments can position themselves for a proper charge next turn. They add to the number of units which are annoying to the foe and which are much faster than any other in the army.

The only thing I would add to any way you want to use your Eagles is that I always try to position them so that they are not easy target to aim at (if possible of course). If there are no cannons having them behind heavy cavalry helps. I also try to keep them until it is absolutely necessary to use them so I do not fly them to the front of the enemy turn 1 just because I can. Reavers are much better at that as they can flee and return to the fight next turn. Eagles are too precious to sacrifice them just because they are worth “only” 50 points each. It might be that they are indeed sacrificed very often but make sure it is really for greater good. The longer the eagle is around the more dangerous it is and the better your situation can be.

This army list is not final version. I don’t think I would ever be able to have one. Things constantly change, the fact new books are released is one reason for that. Another is my growing experience with different armies. There are a lot of them which I haven’t played against yet so it might happen that I will recognize the need to include something I haven’t yet to be prepared for yet another threat. I will probably not be able to have a perfect solution for everything but at least I will find out with which tools I am most comfortable with. For comparison, have a look at the army which was suggested to me long time ago and which was the force I based my first list on.

4.2. Another example of HE MSU army

Archmage, level 4, Jewel of the Dusk – High Magic
BSB, GW, Dragon Armor, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant – High Magic

2 x 10 Archers, Musicians
2 x 20 Spears, Musicians, Standards (one with Banner of Eternal Flame)
3 x 10 Swordmasters, Musicians
3 x 10 White Lions, Musicians
2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musicians
3 x Great Eagle

Harder hitting force and more combat orientated. Other than that I leave it to you to compare two armies and find out which one you like better and what might be differences in some crucial details about their way of fighting.

5. Deployment

Assembling army list is only the beginning. Deployment of your army on the battle field is a very crucial thing and for me it is separate phase of the game. It is not rare occasion when a game is won or lost at this stage.

Deployment is very important for MSU army because it aims to out-deploy the enemy. It may seem to be easy with more regiments than typical enemy armies have but it does not mean MSU force can deploy in random order and fashion. Since it supposed to give an advantage one has to think how to do so properly. Besides with many regiment it is also easy to end up with crowded formation when units do not support each other and even stay in the way preventing charges and adding to the general confusion.

Deployment depends on many factors. Apart from the enemy army list, which is kind of obvious, there are following things I try to take into account:

5.1. Terrain.

Sounds obvious but it is important so it is also worth reminding. I try to quickly discuss each piece of terrain and its effect it can have on units or line of sight. It also makes it clear for the situations later in the game and there are no nasty surprises.

In particular I look for forests and rivers/lakes as if I can draw the enemy into combat while his unit remains in such terrain then they cannot be steadfast and cannot claim rank bonus. Very good situation for my army as it can deal a lot of wounds and win against otherwise difficult to break enemy such as horde regiment or a unit with deep ranks.

Another important terrain is the one which forces dangerous terrain test. It is good to enter such area with your infantry as it makes a good defensive position against chariots and cavalry. Sometimes you can combine effects and have also protection against shooting if you are in the forest on some kind of ruins.

I am also learning how to use buildings to my advantage, it seems obvious to put some shooters in there as they can target units around the building and have good defensive position (although sometimes it can be a trap so be warned and do not enter the building which is in the range of an organ gun!).

5.2. Scenario

I am aware that many players do not use scenarios in their games but for those who do (and I recommend doing so, as it spices up the game and you can always modify some victory conditions to make them more “fair” :)) a few reminders.

If your are playing Blood and Glory it is obvious you don’t want to risk your banners in the same way as during Battleline so take that into account and even change the deployment order to make sure you can place most vulnerable regiments in the safe(r) place.

In the Meeting Engagement in particular and in some other scenarios it is worth remembering you are much closer to the enemy. Even if you have first turn there is a chance your opponent can steal it from you (on a roll of 6) so be prepared for that too and do not deploy in a way they you can be charged instead charging yourself.

Example

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In the game against TK I won roll-off and had a great chance to move first. I wanted to use that to my advantage and positioned Dragon Princes forward. They could attempt charges turn 1. If I failed charge rolls nothing bad happens as I can flee with them to safety and use them later on. But if I succeeded then I could potentially break through and have opened path to vulnerable artillery behind. If my opponent stole the initiative it is still ok as majority of my army is further back and cannot be engaged early.

5.3. Going second

I am used to the fact I am going second. That is why I deploy in such a way that I can take that into account. It usually means I deploy my regiments a little further than the edge of deployment zone so that the enemy shooters need to move to get into range. If possible, and with 24” range of some troops it is the most common situation, I deploy 6” away from the edge so that even if they move they are out of range anyway.

On the other hand some of my regiments could have some good targets to attack (cavalry in particular) so it pays off to consider such placement that enables first turn charges. Even if they are long ones it is worth risking as I have enough units to follow and protect the regiment that failed their charge roll while if it works it can be a surprise for the enemy. What is more, if the target of the attack is broken then cavalry can be behind enemy lines in no time too. (see example from Meeting Engagement section)

Going second affects the light cavalry too. I need to take into account the fact that if I move towards the enemy they might be in shooting range so I try to prevent that (although there were games when I did the contrary and suffered the consequences). I might vanguard them to try and draw some attention and early charges which is good as they can flee, rally and move again. Vanguard move can also position them on a good spot to charge in my turn 1 with even greater chances of success so if there is a good target for them I try to do so.

5.4. Order of deployment

I often start with deployment of Archers, LSG and Reavers because these regiments usually occupy the centre of my formation (in the case of infantry) and Reavers are going to vanguard anyway (although I do not use it to redeploy or change direction as it is quite risky and adds to the confusion). If the enemy does not have war machines such as cannons I can then deploy my eagles. If he does, I wait until he deploys them and try to position the birds where he cannot aim at them or at least where it is safer (relatively of course). I then try to make sure they are more than 6” away from other units to prevent panic tests unless the regiments are close enough to BSB to get re-rolls. But even then, if possible, I try to avoid that. Then I proceed to position my heavy hitters.

Example

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Here I made a crucial mistake. I knew I am facing doom divers which are very dangerous for my heavy cavalry but I still deployed them outside of the influence of the BSB. I lost one unit of DP who then panicked another heavy cavalry and nearby Swordmasters out of the board. It was heavy blow and I had to fight an uphill battle with 2000 point army against 2500 one. I didn’t manage to recover from that.

But it is not the rule and sometimes it even pays off to keep Archers and LSG as last to deploy as otherwise they might have no good targets to shoot at or their priority targets can be obscured, out of range etc.

5.5. Formation

With so many regiments the battle line MSU army is going to form can be wide. It helps to envelope the enemy with smaller number of units. Because of that the centre is occupied by infantry while the flanks are controlled by cavalry. Since I have 2 unit of each regiment it can even be symmetric. The advantage of that formation is that the enemy cannot say if there is any part of the formation that is more important. Placement of characters can sometimes tip the balance slightly to one side or the other but even then not so much.

Example

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Symmetric formation with strong flanks and fire base at the centre gave me the opportunity to envelope the enemy quickly, set up some traps and shoot at him without other regiments blocking line of sight. At the same time he had difficult choice to make as whether to split up his force or to keep it tight but go against one half of the army leaving the other half unchecked.

It is of course not the only way of deploying troops and often it is not even the most common one. Sometimes formation is forced by scenario such as Dawn Attack. Sometimes a form of refused or weighted flank can also be beneficial.

Example

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(Reproduced from the army list topic of Elithmar of Lothern - Link)

Suspecting that big archer unit is carrying Banner of Eternal Flame I positioned Dragon Princes in the center so that they can cover the distance to the enemy fire base quicker and with smaller chance of being intercepted. Shooting regiments took good defensive positions in the forest but are close to respond to the threat from the Eastern flank and to support other troops.

Combat infantry supports each other and 2 regiments can move swiftly to either reinforce cavalry or turn to the center to engage the enemy. At the same time other 2 units protect fire base and threaten the flank of the opposing army if it decided to attack my cavalry. Last but not least light horse can either harass enemy advance or use the forest to attack from another flank if heavy cavalry had difficulties in destroying support elements of the enemy army.


There were just 2 examples of how formation can look like, one is symmetric the other one is asymmetric. But by no means they are not standard deployments and I doubt there is even such a thing. There are a few points, however, that I have found quite important in assembling your regiments for battle. In no particular order:

- Support each other – this is true at any stage of a game (if possible of course). Try not to leave any regiments in a position that when it is charged you cannot counter attack in your following turn. A little twist here and there means that your angles are right and there is no situation when the enemy attacks and you cannot attack back because you cannot really see it although it is 2 inches away.

- Use terrain – there are usually more benefits from being in some kind of cover with unit unless we are talking about cavalry. In that case it might be better to position them relatively in the open to avoid dangerous terrain test. In all other cases you can always use that -1 to hit penalty for the enemy when your troops are in the woods or that they have to make a dangerous terrain test while attacking your unit in the ruins.

- Avoid crowd – as I have shown in one of the examples being too crowded may result in unlucky chain effect of failed panic tests or in a situation when rallied unit blocks friends from moving or charging the enemy. If possible use check board formation so that units have gaps through which to withdraw or to move forward.

- “Living Shield” – having said that you should not be too crowded there might be some exceptions when it is better to position units close together. In particular some kind of “Living Shield” can be used but fortunately without entirely sacrificing troops, merely using the ones with better protection to give some of it to their friends. For example, single rank of White Lions can nicely protect Swordmasters staying behind them from enemy shooters as they have more difficult choice. To shoot at Lions without penalties but knowing they have 3+ armor save against shooting or at Swordmasters with additional -2 to hit penalty. The same can be done with Dragon Princes and Eagles and even when you position one Reaver unit behind another it can be good as you would probably be able to save one of them. Even more so with Shield of Saphery on the front line regiment.

- Task forces – form units into task forces. They might be as small as 2 regiments or as big as half of the army. They will operate on their own then but with particular goal in mind. You can change task forces during the game depending on the situation and how quickly you achieve with them what you wanted to gain.

6. Movement

Some armies are designed to out-shoot the enemy. Some to out-magic it. MSU armies aim at gaining superiority in the movement phase. Before I start writing about my own observations in that matter I would like to draw your attention to some old articles by Machiara and Papa Elf (who basically adopted a lot of Machiara’s ideas and tried to implement them for High Elves armies in particular):

Machiara's Battle Glade

Papa Elf - Tactics - Part 1

Papa Elf - Tactics - Part 2

In one of them it is said that Movement Phase has really two purposes:

1. To create a situation when you can have uneven fights in your favor.
2. To prevent the enemy to do likewise.

Some of the ideas in the above mentioned articles are outdated due to the fact they were written for previous editions. For example, skirmishers no longer have ability to see in every direction that limits their area of influence to the front rank as every other unit.

However, there are new rules which I try to use with MSU army to my advantage:

- Random charge distance – new rules for determining charge distances mean that in theory the area of influence of your units are bigger since an infantry regiment can potentially have a charge distance of 17 inches while cavalry can attack targets at 20 inches away (with greater probability too, thanks to swift stride). It is not likely to accomplish such a fit but the enemy often has to take that into account and by threatening him with an attack you can prevent him from reaching better positions.

- Swift reform/other reforms – with musicians and high leadership you can be much faster. Instead of performing wide and cumbersome wheels you simply swift reform and move in the desired direction. Very good when you want to catch the opponent off guard and pretend you are attacking towards one part of the battlefield and then go elsewhere. Of course you have to be careful how you reform and that you do not create chaos among your own ranks but keeping the enemy guessing can be a good idea. And might force him to make mistakes too.

Another use of swift reform is to use it in order to threaten enemy units trying to maneuver around you or between your regiments. It can be tricky as you don’t want to chase faster units (or fliers) this way and simply turn your unit on the spot. But this is the option you have so you can try to use it.

Swift reform also helps regiments who defeated their enemies to quickly reinforce their companions. Reforming in general is very useful thing to do so look for opportunities and try to anticipate movements of units to choose the best option. At the same time limiting the options for the enemy to do so is very helpful. Attacking from two directions gives that advantage and if it is done from any other than front it can also mean a significant reduction in the attacks the foe can direct back at you.

Example

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Here you can see that I managed to charge with Swordmasters and Lions against Stormvermin and defeat them in 1 turn. I used combat reform after that to be in a position to counter charge next turn when Spearelves held big clanrat unit in place.

Last but not least swift reform helps your shooters to change facing and keep shooting. Deadly against light troops trying to sneak around. Also useful when you try to position sea guard to create better multi charges but annoys the enemy as you are not only threaten them with unfavourable combats but can kill that one warrior too many that might be the difference between having and not having steadfast or kill that lonely character who thought he is safe.

Example

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Vampire BSB on Hellsteed has just defeated light cavalry. He was in a relatively safe position but keen eyed elven archers spotted him. They swift-reformed to be sure they are in range and managed to get that lucky shot that finished cursed creature of the night.

- Fast cavalry – less straightforward to use but I really like it. Now and again you might find a narrow gap in enemy lines which is too narrow for other units but thanks to free reform you can get through and threaten vulnerable war machines. It is also very helpful to threaten the foe with flank/rear charges too. They might fail their Ld test due to close proximity of your unit and might not march, does not happen often but it is always good to force such a test.

Their feigned flight rule is also very handy, especially against frenzied regiments and can help you to draw them into a trap without sacrificing your own units to do so. In other cases the enemy might have to declare the charge against them first in order to redirect against another unit. First, they might fail to do so and then have to chase light horse. If not they might be still in a bad spot for a successful charge against another unit (i.e. too far to have good chance to make it) and still fail the charge. You can of course withdraw with second regiment too thus slowing down your enemy further. In any case there are a lot of opportunities to perform feigned flight and then come back to the fight, especially that you can do so by moving around enemy regiments and immediately position your light cavalry in a threatening place without losing a turn as it would be for other unit.

Example

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One of the light cavalry units performed a feigned flight move forcing a failed charge and thus the gap was created between the Dwarven units. Reavers reformed and immediately moved into it to reform again behind enemy lines ready to attack their war machines. Another unit also exploited the gap between Dwarven unit and the tower.

- Always Strike First/Initiative order – it is not exactly the rule that helps you directly in the movement phase but thanks to that you can be more aggressive with your units and be more efficient in positioning them for the best charge option. The enemy often fears even 10 Lions or Swordmasters because they will strike before them and with their high output damage it is very risky to do so if you are not attacking with big regiment or well armoured warriors or both. Thanks to that you can march with one of your regiments boldly towards the enemy, stop and inch or two, thus preventing any sophisticated movement and force a difficult decision – charge first but still suffer greatly and risk counter attack or try to move back but with possible combined charge going his way next turn regardless.

Example

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I moved my hard hitters towards the enemy but I positioned Spearelves and Swormdasters in such way that Daemonettes would struggle not to engage both units at the same time (and I always could flee from that charge). Since my enemy hesitated and didn’t charge first I could attack with 4 units against one. This example also shows how the advantage in the number of units available works to your advantage. You can outflank the enemy easier even with ranked infantry and since the opponent knows you can flee and still have units to charge he has a tough decision to make.

Apart from 8th edition rules that you can use in the movement phase to gain advantage and prevent the enemy in doing likewise there are things that are good for you:

- Multiple Small Units - This is also foundation of the whole concept. Multiple Units. Even though they are infantry in majority you can use them efficiently to overwhelm the enemy so that there is nowhere for it to hide and no matter how it turns or reforms, it will always be attacked from many directions. What is more, by setting up multiple charges you diminish the impact of the random charge range and even if some units do not get into the contact with the enemy there are enough of them to create favorable fight for you anyway.

Example

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In the course of battle I managed to position several units close enough to attempt a multiple charge on an isolated regiment of enemy ranked infantry. I sacrificed an eagle to hold gors in place and then declared the charge with 6 units. Only one failed the charge roll and combined effort was enough to destroy 25 strong gor unit with 2 characters in a single turn.

- Space - MSU army needs space to be able to be as efficient as possible. It means that in the first turn of the game you might need to clear the field from enemy support units as they can divert your regiments, block movement and be generally annoying. This is where your shooting and cavalry can shine. Shooting can wound tougher targets such as chariots or some war beasts while light cavalry or skirmishers can be destroyed by it. Cavalry can intercept faster regiments which can harm your infantry (and you do want them to be at full strength before the combat starts). Heavy cavalry is also good at attacking enemy shooters and aid light horse in war machines hunting so that your infantry does not have to worry about presenting a flank to cannon crew of your enemy. Because you have many units at your disposal you can perform all these tasks at the same time. Another great advantage of the MSU army.

- Great Eagles- Great Eagles are well known for their usefulness and they deserve a separate entry. Fortunately there is a whole topic for you to read about tricks available to any HE player so I am not going to steal the topic from the rightful owner and instead give full credit to Collinisimo and other contributors by linking this topic: Link

7. Additional Examples

There are a few more examples of interesting situations which occurred in my games I would like to share with you. I hope I will be able to update that part with more games coming.

7.1. Abomination Hunt

Skaven Abomination is powerful monster and with its special attacks it can easily eat one small regiment per turn. It was crucial for me then to come up with an idea of how to hunt it down. It is very fast with its 3d6 random movement and you cannot flee from it. It has "regeneration" special rule so it was very important to attack it with White Lions who have Banner of Eternal Flame. If I could do so from the flank then even better. Here is what I managed to achieve:

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Due to its Random Movement Abomination moved ahead of main Skaven battle line. I positioned an Eagle exactly 1 inch in front of it so that it has no other option but to charge. I moved White Lions to be 6.1 right behind the eagle so that when Abomination overruns it does not go too far for another Lion regiment to charge it from the flank. As you can see my opponent sees the danger and tries to shoot at Lions but 5 of them remains and they charge in. They do not kill the Abomination in that turn yet (I managed to finish it in subsequent round of combat) but I stopped it already.

7.2. Dealing with Frenzied Ranked units

Ranked units with frenzy can be very dangerous because they produce a lot of attacks and even if they lose combat they may still be steadfast and difficult to defeat quickly. This is one way of dealing with them:

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I positioned an Eagle in front of the Khorne Warriors regiment. I also moved 3 other units (task force) to positions and my opponent had to choose. Either to attack or be attacked. He chose to kill the eagle and had to overrun. As he entered the river he immediately lost steadfast rule and his ranks did not count to the combat resolution. Then I charged with my 3 heavy hitters from 3 sides and managed to inflict enough wounds to kill the entire regiment. However, the same would work against horde of khorne marauders for example, who would lose badly and unless they were lucky to get insane courage they would be broken easily

7.3. Multiple Charge

There are many examples of multiple charges but I chose this one because ... it didn't happen. I missed that opportunity and if I were not lucky to hold with Spearelves against Clanrats with Screaming Bell I would have lost that game badly.

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In the middle of the game sometimes it is hard to spot great opportunities. In this situation I saw that I am in a good position to charge Stromvermin with Swordmasters from the front and Lions from the flank. I also sacrificed Archers to slow down Clanrats with Screaming Bell. To our surprise Archers survived the charge and even managed to hold on Insane Courage! But then I was so overwhelmed with joy that I didn't spot another opportunity.

I should have charged with Swordmasters and Spearelves to the flank of that big regiment. It would pin it down again and although it is unbreakable I would be able to start killing clanrats earlier. Also, my two other regiments who defeated Stormvermin would be able to help my following turn and it would be possible to get the bell as well while in the game I didn't have enough time to finish it. What is more important, however, I would not risk Spearelves with the Archmage as I did in the game.


8. Summary

As I said at the beginning I wrote this rather long post to collect my observations on High Elves MSU. It is possible that with growing experience I will update it, especially with some more interesting examples. I would also appreciate any feedback on any part. Do you think I should elaborate on some particular subject? Maybe I missed something?

I also trust it was interesting reading despite the length. I simply decided to write everything I consider worth mentioning even if it seems obvious.

Acknowledgements

If these observations are any good (and I believe some of them may be useful :)) then it is thanks to:

Wardancer aka Eastern Barbarian - who convinced me that it is a very good idea to try out MSU approach when I was failing badly with my cavalry prince and started to doubt if I can play Warhammer at all. He patiently played game after game with variety of armies to help me to prepare to the first tournament at which I played with this army. Thanks bro!

SmithF - for showing the MSU armies can be fun to play with in 8th edition too!

Milliardo - for support and understanding the need to talk about tactics more than army list building :)

Brewmaster_D - for being stubborn and forcing me to eat my keyboard in order to defend my own way but having a great time discussing magic lores and core selections.

And all the members from Ulthuan and Warhammer.org who: disagreed with me on many matters thus helping me to try and explain my point of view better (I know I failed often in that regard); popped by and said they like the reports and the army style - that really kept me going!; all the readers - I will do my best to provide more and better quality reports so that HE MSU saga continues.

Thanks for reading!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
joey_boy
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#295 Post by joey_boy »

I love the way you structured this Swordi!

I'm going for the 80 Swordmasters backed up by 50 Archers MSU army and Iv had a lot of inspiration from your threads here and on TWF :)

I would love to have some input on my own random thoughts on WE MSU styles over at Asrai.org ( http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22678 )
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#296 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Very well written mate - I see where you've been and what you've been up to lately! :3

You've inspired me - I've been tinkering with my army lately, and I think I'm going to use your work as a springboard to make my own version of an MSU army. :3
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#297 Post by John Rainbow »

This is really cool. I can see a lot of effort went into this and it's great your putting these experiences down here. Keep it up!

My feeling on MSU is that it is less forgiving in terms of unit placement and the movement phase. With so many units to move around and the need to get those flank/combo charges it can end up being a lot to think about and more of a chess game in terms of placement and counters. I wasn't sure if this was something worth mentioning - I just feel that this type of army needs an experienced general with a bit more finesse to get the best from it. Or at least more so than an army with a couple of big horde blocks does.
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#298 Post by Arch Mage »

Awesome write up :D it has been really usefull. Even for non-MSU armies, as you said a large amount of what you have said is useful and will come into play at some point!!

Thanks a lot!! :D
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[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=40633&p=775432#p775432]if you are drowning out there as a beginner, I hope this helps.[/url][/color]

[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=40964&p=778044#p778044]my army lists[/url]
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#299 Post by SpellArcher »

Thank you Swordmaster. An excellent article distilling your work and just the kind of thing the site needs.

We do actually have access to ITP via the Standard of Balance. Expensive but I feel it might have a place in an MSU army.

I'm totally with you on multi-tasking. Our stuff is expensive but flexibility is our watchword!

:)
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Re: MSU HE - Observations - updated 7.07

#300 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for comments! I really appreciate you liked that monstrosity :)
joey_boy wrote:I love the way you structured this Swordi!

I'm going for the 80 Swordmasters backed up by 50 Archers MSU army and Iv had a lot of inspiration from your threads here and on TWF :)

I would love to have some input on my own random thoughts on WE MSU styles over at Asrai.org ( http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22678 )
Thanks joey_boy! I will definitely have a look at your topic and will try to send you some comments via PM.

80 SM and 50 Archers? That is really something pushed to the extreme! You need to give us a shout as soon as you are going to have a game with it!
~Milliardo~ wrote:Very well written mate - I see where you've been and what you've been up to lately! :3

You've inspired me - I've been tinkering with my army lately, and I think I'm going to use your work as a springboard to make my own version of an MSU army. :3
You welcome!

Yes, it took me some time in between reports and painting but I am glad I managed to finish it as it started to grow in the course of writing. Then I decided it is good to have diagrams too to better illustrate the examples (pictures are way better than whole paragraphs!).

Good luck with whatever you are going to create, be it additional army for campaign or just a new army list for its own sake!
John Rainbow wrote:My feeling on MSU is that it is less forgiving in terms of unit placement and the movement phase. With so many units to move around and the need to get those flank/combo charges it can end up being a lot to think about and more of a chess game in terms of placement and counters. I wasn't sure if this was something worth mentioning - I just feel that this type of army needs an experienced general with a bit more finesse to get the best from it. Or at least more so than an army with a couple of big horde blocks does.
I agree with the first half of your post, i.e. that MSU army has a very small error margin and that it indeed reminds chess game :) It is also important, as you said, to be careful and anticipate more to be able to create and use opportunities. It another thing worth mentioning and which I forgot to add. MSU is more about creating opportunities in addition to exploiting mistakes made by the enemy. Simply because the units are too small to win combats head on against big regiments.

As to the experience you definitely need to know the rules. Maybe that comes with games you play and it was my case for sure. Even the games I played with Cavalry Prince thought me a lot and despite some crushing defeats I learned something to play better with completely different army.

MSU is different tool than big horde units. They are more straightforward and brutal in use but as any horde unit user will tell you they have some limitations. Which is good because everybody can find something for himself and there is more variety. I still have a lot of challenges to overcome (see my recent game against Dwarves) but I think I can come up with some ideas so that at some stage I will be able to add a chapter about particular enemies and how to deal with them. :)
Arch Mage wrote:Awesome write up :D it has been really usefull. Even for non-MSU armies, as you said a large amount of what you have said is useful and will come into play at some point!!

Thanks a lot!! :D
You welcome! I hope it was worth waiting for so long :)
SpellArcher wrote:Thank you Swordmaster. An excellent article distilling your work and just the kind of thing the site needs.

We do actually have access to ITP via the Standard of Balance. Expensive but I feel it might have a place in an MSU army.

I'm totally with you on multi-tasking. Our stuff is expensive but flexibility is our watchword!

:)
Thanks SpellArcher!

I didn't forget about Standard of Balance but since I tried to talk about general ideas and only talk about specific magic items when I discussed them in conjunction with my current army list I didn't add that very useful banner.

There are so many great magic items in our book that it is not possible to have them all in one army. So it is a matter of choice but it might be good to have a review of them in terms of potential use. I will see if I can incorporate that into the whole article. It is a first draft after all and I count on you guys to give some feedback so that I can compile the ideas later on.

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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