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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:04 am 
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Hi all, I have completely overhauled my 1500 list from another thread viewtopic.php?f=67&t=34662 and taken up on a lot of sage advice from various helpful members. However, this most recent reincarnation still needs some fine tuning.

Tournament special rule: Balanced list (no cheese), no Lords, 8 power dice max per magic phase

GENERAL
Mage Lv2 High
Silver Wand and Skeinsliver 170 pt

BSB mounted 177 pts
GW, DA, Barded Steed, Shield, Helm Fortune, Talisman of Loec
1+ to shooting, 2+ AS in combat. Possible soloist to assassinate or work in conjunction with Silver Helm bodyguards to roll up the flanks

CORE
24 x Spearman with Full Command and Gleaming Pennant 246 pts
Depending on opponent, may be deployed 5 wide as normal or 6 wide if no shooting/MM is expected
Centre of my battle line, provide moderate protection for the shooting band below.

12 x Archers
Mage here perhaps, work in conjunction with RBT to remove screening units
I’m also considering swapping Option A 12 Archer+1 RBT for Option B 2x 10 archers (roughly same points value). Option A provides more hitting power against “hard” enemies but Option B provides more bodies and more resilience in combat should I find myself in a weighted flank scenario. Please comment?

SPECIAL
14 x White Lions with Musician and Banner of Eternal Flame 238 pts
Main combat unit deployed 7 wide. With covering fire from my shooters and inherent missile protection should get into combat largely intact lest they get magicked on hard.

8 x Silver Helms 184 pts
BSB to go on corner of unit especially against units with Killing Blow or other nasties.
The alternative is to give the unit a banner of Swiftness to ensure that they get to their all important flanking position. This will cost 27 pts, is it worth the extra 2” on the march?

5 x Dragon Princes 150 pts
Very tempting target for shooting and deception during the deployment phase. Workable? Or is it better to replace the 150 pts with a block of Elites, say Swordmasters?

RARE
1 RBT
Soften armoured blocks or monsters. Option to replace with 10x Archers as above.

2 x Great eagles
I imagine 1 of those will divert big bad units away from the main fighting force, buy time. The other eagle will do whatever is important at the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:01 am 
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well looking at the special rule for PD generation, i'd be tempted to take something like the annulian crystal rather than your more offensive load out.
this ensures your opponent will never get more than 7 PD, which will really hamper his phase. with your +3 to dispel you should be able to shut down anyone who doesnt just throw 6 die and hope for IF.

i'm not so sure about the RBT as this points level. it may work wonders for you, it may just be a waste of points. i'd rather drop it in favour of 4 more silver helms to give a really solid hammer, but thats just me...

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:12 am 
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Hey man thanks for the advice.

I have certainly contemplated taking the Annulian on more occasions than one but the TO did mention that it ought to be a Balanced army list, designed for fun not all out to win. Taking the annulian will do exactly what you just said, throw 6 dices and immolate themselves lol. I am tempted to take the item at the risk of being marked down for Victory Points.

Unfortunately i have no more than 8 Helm models... i can however, swap em over for Archers.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:11 pm 
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do you have any more elite combat models? investing that 100pts into more white lions or maybe even a chariot could help.
i wouldnt over build your core. a few extra s3 bows probaly wont help you as much as another 6 white lions or a chariot

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:52 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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You know what? I really like this list.

This includes the repeater bolt thrower. I'm not typically a fan of RBTs operating by themselves but, in this list (and at these points), it works well. The fact that you've chosen the spears means that a bit of ranged cover is also more important: you have fewer archers and a large unit of troops vulnerable to light missile fire. The repeater should work nicely in conjunction with your archers to give you a respectable shooting phase, covering your infantry, despite the fact that you've spent almost all your points on combat power. It's also better at penetrating armour and generally shooting a greater variety of targets than archers - I'd keep it.

Considering what you say about power dice and competitiveness, your choice of items on the mage is nice (Drain Magic should give you an edge in defence with the limited number of dice). I'd deploy him with the archers since high magic doesn't require him to be closer than 24" to combat and, frankly, he doesn't want to be much closer than that.

I'd swap an archer for a spearelf, making the spear unit 25 (5x5), without needing the character to make up the numbers. In principle, field spears as deep as you can - you have other units in your army providing good attacks- this is the only unit in your army which can cheaply field ranks. If it were me, I'd also want that extra silver helm with your BSB's unit to make it a full 2 ranks. Since you're taking them in large numbers, you might as well take that one extra model- this forces your opponent to do something about that second rank and makes it, of course, more durable for the big combat. Find the points!

The two eagles provide really nice anti-war machine capability. At these low points, two is perhaps a bit of a luxury. There's no denying their miriad uses, but I'd be tempted to lose one to get the points for the extra helm, a Guardian on your white lions and an item for him - like Gem of Courage, Amulet of Light or something. On the other hand, eagle No. 2 gives you excellent harassment and target satuartion - both good things working in conjunction with your cavalry. If you can find those 23 points anywhere else, then, I'd do it.

As to your DPs, I'd keep them since you've spent most of your core points on spears rather than archers. If you swapped the DPs out for infantry elites, your army as a whole would be slower and much more vulnerable to shooting & harassment, meaning you'd need to take core archers to compensate in order to keep your list balanced. This selection would, in turn, leave your Silver Helm bus slightly stranded and a much more obvious target. Since you've got a nice steadfast unit in the spears (providing an excellent anchor for your attacking cavalry wing), a killy infantry unit in the lions, I'd take the DPs to add a bit of pace and armour that you're lacking elsewhere. You don't want to waste your big cavalry bus units chasing small units away from your infantry. They also, of course, can work well in conjunction with your silver helms, providing cover from harassment or extra damage against large enemy units. You've highlighted the benefits in deployment already. 5 DPs are, in short, very good value for their points, and work very well for your list.

All in all, I think it's an excellent combined-arms list. Good steadfast / powerful infantry and a very powerful cavalry wing to pivot around them, with excellent eagle harassment, decent shooting support and a nice number of drops to make deployment work in your favour. Any changes I'd make (basically revolving around that extra helm), are minimal. Good job.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:21 am 
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Thanks for the glowing feedback. Now it's a matter of studying the art of waging war with HE thoroughly before the tournament.

I've made the minor changes in Core as suggested and dropped 1 eagle to include the 9th Helm and bolster the WL unit with an additional body, champion and the Potion of Foolhardiness. In case they get the charge, that's an extra 1 Str6 attack , equivalent to a Noble with GW.

I have submitted my list with said changes to the TO which was well accepted, however he told me that the minimum core required is 50%. What the hell? And even pointed me to p134 of the book. He must have read the section on Special which caps selection to 50%. I'm pretty sure my list is legit and there was no special tournie rule regarding percentage selection.

To be honest though, i feel a little naked without the 2nd eagle. Typically our opponents will have one big nasty block/monster which we would rather not deal with. Let’s use the weighted flank scenario as an example: I will want my primary force consisting of WL, Helms and DP say, to overwhelm one part of the enemy force unmolested. To that end, I would position the eagles to disrupt/slow down the other wing’s advance thus prevent the consolidating of his forces, buying valuable time for the strike force to finish off their job. This in theory should stall units on the other side for a good 2-3 turns by which time the strike force will have time to eliminate their targets and reposition to counter the remaining enemies units. This will also give me one extra drop during deployment although it may reduce my chances of going first turn despite the Skeinsliver.

The alternative is therefore to retain the 2nd eagle and the 9th Helm but get the points by dropping the Talisman of Loec, keep the WL at 14 bodies with only Musician and Guardian/Standard only (loosing 1 body, champion, flame banner and potion). All else the same. I will have a long hard think about this last set of alternative, though your input on this matter is much sought.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:55 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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You can live without them but that doesn't mean that eagles are not brilliant.

On balance I think the 2nd eagle is good for you. I'd probably get rid of the Skeinsliver, then, if it was the last thing getting me those 25 points for that last knight (and a shield for your BSB). You've got a lot of drops (especially with the 2 eagles), and not that much shooting, so you can live without it. Other than swapping out an archer for a spearelf, then, the list is ace.

Oh, what you say about the tournie organiser telling you that High Elves need 50% core... well, that's mental. It's 25% like everyone else. As you say, he's got his rules wrong. That little quibble aside, let us know how you get on!

And keep the flaming banner on your lions!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Can't thank you enough for the input. I will post here after next Saturday how i went. In the meantime i will have to runs some tactical simulations. Started pulling together an assortment of 1500 lists from other faction's forums and will use them for studying purpose.

P.S. Got it sorted out with the organiser, he stuffed up on Army Builder and is perfectly Ok with my list, commented that it was definitely in the spirit of the tournament.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:16 pm 
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I went into this tournament on Saturday expecting to struggle having never used this list apart from playing it out in my mind many times. I only expected to win 1 or 2 battles out of 4 at the most but the results totally surprised me.

Long story short, I managed 3 massacres and 1 minor (nearly major) victory with this list and managed to come 2nd overall. First place went to a Skaven player who managed to trounce every other player who came across him.

Unit of the day award goes to: The Silver Helms lead by the BSB. They did exactly what they were intended to do in almost every battle, breaking the enemy's flank unit in a single turn then continuing on to wreak havoc in their disorganised line.

Particular mention to Seredain for his Calvary Prince thread from which I drew inspiration. The 3 principals espoused in the thread were applied in every battle which resulted in 4 victories: 1) Deploy your opponent causing him to deploy the bulk of his army in the wrong place. 2) Concentric ranged attack by Magic, archers and RBT to weaken critical areas of the opponent's line. 3) Finish off by flanking his battle line with Calvary using their high maneourability to steamroll the opponent's line.

I'm working on the 4 battle reports and will post photos for illustration :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:39 pm 
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I think this list is really solid! I don't think I would change anything, save for removing the Spearelf champion (I find they're not worth their points).

Do you mind if I use your list as an example in an article I've written about High Elf list design? See the link in my signature for info.

Regards,
Olannon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Thanks for the plug Curu, feel free to share it. I wouldn't have came up on it if it weren't for Seredain's pointers.

On a side note, i probably haven't made much mention of the eagles in the report write up i have done so far but they are by far the silent achievers in the game, being a hindrance to the enemy and saviour of the more valuable troops.

I kept the champion in the Spears in case they get into a combo charge with the Helms+BSB so he can accept any unwanted challenges on the BSB, so he can be left in peace to do his work. Speaking of which, in game 4 the BSB was forced to solo flank charge a solid block of Dwarf warriors with FC and a Thane. He went in cahllenged the Thane and held him and the whole unit there for 3 rounds of combat until he finally killed the Thane and my WLs arrived to dispatch this full unit of 20 Warriors.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Yeah that makes perfect sense, but it's kind of circumstantial I suppose. It's not like one champion is a lot of points, anyways.

I wrote about your list in the other thread as well, take a look and see if you agree :)

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:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Curu your comments were fine and rounds up the purpose of this army well. I have since updated the above list and the final cut that made it to the tournament was as follows which you may like to update in your thread.

GENERAL
Mage Lv2 High
Silver Wand 145 pt

BSB mounted 177 pts
GW, Dragon armour, Barded Steed, Shield, Helm Fortune, Talisman of Loec

CORE
25 x Spearman with Full Command and Gleaming Pennant 255pts

11x Archers 121pts

SPECIAL

14x White Lions, Guardian and Standard Bearer
Banner of Eternal Flame
244 pts

9 x Silver Helms 207 pts

5 x Dragon Princes 150 pts

RARE

1 x RBT
2 x Great eagles

TOTAL POINTS: 1500


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:55 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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Dude, 2nd place in your first tournie is quite an achievement! Congratulations. I like the sound of the tanking BSB holding up the enemy block while the white lions came to the rescue - that sounds pretty spot on. Really looking forward to the reports.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:35 am 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Updated my post :)

How do you think the mounted bsb performs? It appears to me based on battle reports I've seen with these lists that he often ends up too far away from the main fighting body and as such is kind of a waste.

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:56 am 
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As you will see in my reports shortly, the BSB gets plenty of action in all my 4 games, in fact i can almost say he has made profit on his points in each game. He only died once because i forgot that he had Dragon armour and got shot by a Dwarven fire rune cannnon :(

My army serves to ensure the BSB and the Helms gets into the thick of it where it will hurt the enemy the most. There are so many competing threats on the board presented to my opponent that they don't usually view the "weak" Helms as the most powerful threat. In fact, i like to mention that i heard several bystanderes murmur how Scary the Dragon princes are, nobody was ever intimidated by the Helm+BSB which gives rise to their success IMO.


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