Skewedviews wrote:
I was hoping that maybe before that comes round you might have time to expand on your idea of what a 3000pt version of the list might look like? I have been thinking about this for some time, based on the different versions of your list so far and the 4000pt list you posed a few pages back, I have come up with my own idea...
Skewedviews your post is eerily well-timed! I'm heading home for Easter for a week and, while I'm there, I'm throwing down against an old friend who wants to play me with his 3000 point tournie-lizardmen. So, I've been thinking hard over the last couple of weeks about what exactly I'd put in my 3K army and, for the most part, I was looking simply at putting in the things I'd toyed with in the 2.5K list but had ended up deciding to lose for the 'greater good'. Thus the chariot, Banner of Sorcery, support caster and the extra white lions all made it in and I ended up with almost exactly the list you posted above! To be specific, my most recent 3K was as follows:
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Folariath's Robe, Annullian Crystal, Dragonbane Gem - 350
BSB - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard - 190
Mage - Level 2, High Magic, Dispel Scroll
30 Spearelves - Full Command - 295
19 Archers - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 234
10 Archers - Musician - 115
10 Archers - 110
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Amulet of Light, Banner of Sorcery - 299
14 White Lions - Guardian, Standard, Gleaming Pennant - 239
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Chariot - 85
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
2 Eagles - 100
= 3000 points
Skewedviews wrote:
I was hoping to get your critique on it, but first I wanted to know in general what you think of the effectiveness of your list at different point levels, both higher and lower? Your upcoming game is a good example of what I mean, while still at 2500pts it has several "big monsters" and a "super hoard" at larger point levels I would expect these choices to be more common, do you still think the choices made in your list will be as effective? Namely MSU units, Cavalry Prince, Core composition, high magic?
Before we get into the nitty gritty of the Cavalry Prince list in bigger games, it's worth dealing with these points first - and they're good ones. The temptation in expanding any army (or indeed reducing it in size), is that you try and do the same things but on a bigger scale. As a basic example, we might say that, because I field a cavalry prince, 14 swordmasters and 12 white lions at 2.5K, I might automatically field two cavalry princes, two units of 14 swordmasters and two units of 12 white lions at 5K, or something approaching that at 4K.
Larger Games and the Combined-Arms ArmyThe dual temptations of expanding my forces (that I've found), is that I both want to make sure the army maintains the same strengths while taking the opportunity to use the extra points to make up for its weaknesses. The problem is that, while the former will tend to entail the increase in numbers of troops I already posses, the latter will require the addition of new troops or magic items. And so, this leaves me in something of a conundrum!
The 3K list you drafted, mirrored closely by the one I built recently, demonstrates this conflict nicely. Now, we have a combined-arms cavalry-led list with plenty of drops and, now, a powerful (as opposed to efficient) magic phase, with superb magic defence and guaranteed spell selection (assuming you go double on the High magic like me) and dual-Shields. So what's the catch?
Skewedviews wrote:
I was a little shocked with how few bodies were added with the extra 500pts, while some units filled out a little (White lions, Spearelves) and another drop was added... I can't help but feel a few more bodies would help in survivability, and that units such as the Swordmasters that are now much more expensive, are still no larger, and that much easier to wipe out.
This brings me back to the support mage, its a massive points sink from the extra 500pts, taking up 240pts if you include the Banner of Sorcery and the requisite Standard bearer. That is enough for another unit of 14 sword masters/ White Lions, or 7 more Swordmasters and a Lion Chariot.
So I guess my question is do you think another mage adds more to the list than the extra punch and survivability of more elves?
Exactly as you pointed out, the melee centre of the army, around which the fast elements, support units, magic and shooting all operate, stays the same size and looks both small and expensive at 3000 points. On the one hand, this might not matter all that much when the point expansion of 500 is relatively small and where deployment is considered (see below) but, if we assume the enemy army gets significantly larger and/or takes an extra powerful drop (as opposed to inflating its magic phase or adding more toys of its own), things can look a little awkward. Let's take a look at the following (very basic) example.
Army Expansion on the Field - Magic vs Swordmasters:Model 1 - Extra Magic
Extra drops added in the armies' expansions to 3000 points are shown using bright red (enemy) and pale blue (High Elves).Now, let's take deployment out of the equation slightly and assume I've been left with the limited options presented above. Here, I've spent the points on the extra magic and my opponent has bought extra troops, with which he's extended his line. Now let's assume I want to run my usual policy of smashing one of the hordes on my left and breaking inwards. I'll be looking to:
a) Hit them with the silver helms and at least one of the neighbouring High Elf infantry units, with the other occupying the attention of the other horde; or
b) Plug all three units into one horde and crush it.
In either case, I'd have a problem to solve. Option a) leaves me with a reduced capacity for swift horde-slaying. It's doable, but I'll need shooting and my improved magic phase as a back-up to weaken the target unit. Since I'm not getting that many more spells, this will still mean I'm still looking at Arrow Curse, Fury and Flames (though I'm guaranteed all three unlike with a single-archmage list). Meanwhile, option b) means that, although my main attack will be much more powerful, I'm leaving a vacuum of space in which the second enemy horde can operate. I'll need to plug this with at least one eagle and look to use my magic and shooting to wither this unit into ineffectiveness, with the chariot and an archer unit as backup to buy my main attacking units time to come to the rescue.
Both of these options are doable, but both are slightly restrictive. What if my shooting and magic want or need to be elsewhere? On this model, my right flank is hardly looking strong against the units opposite - surely arrows and bolts will be needed here or, failing that, my eagle harrassment? The simple fact is that, if these options are engaged winning me my main attack on the left, my defence on the right is weakened. The solution to this problem will be to out-deploy the enemy so that I always win myself an overlap on my left flank and use the improved magic phase to quickly tilt the balance before switching its attention to defending my army elsewhere.
So, the big plus? I've invested points in an ability which, since it is ranged, easily switches from one part of the battlefield to the other (dispelling enemy spells, of course, works regardless of range). The minus? A crucial part of my attack, the elite infantry, is increasingly fragile at these points and my ability to occupy and control boardspace with combat units is limited.
Model 2 - Extra SwordmastersHere's what my army would look like at 3K with those extra swordmasters:
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Folariath's Robe, Dispel Scroll, Dragonbane Gem - 330
BSB - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard - 190
30 Spearelves - Full Command - 295
19 Archers - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 234
10 Archers - Musician - 115
10 Archers - Musician - 115
14 White Lions - Guardian, Standard, Gem of Courage, Gleaming Pennant - 249
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Amulet of Light - 237
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord - 222
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Chariot - 85
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
2 Eagles - 100
= 3000 points
And here are the consequences of fielding this army with regard to the above example:
14 Swordmasters extend the High Elf line and open up more attacking possibilities on the left flank.Here, then, I have the extra swordmaster unit and can directly match the enemy army's expansion by extending my own line. Thus, without having to cast anything, I can put the silver helms, spearelves and one unit of swords into the horde on the far left and still have a powerful combat unit to occupy the interior boardspace and prevent the second horde from doing whatever it likes. Crucially, this means I no longer have to use shooting, magic and eagles to win me my main attack (though I can choose to if opportunity allows), and this greatly improves my ability to defend the right flank or work with secondary combat units (like the extra swords) to win other combats. The fact that I have the extra deployment drop, too, makes winning such an advantage that bit more likely.
The choice of extra swordmasters, then, can feel like just adding a bigger stick to the army while leaving it relatively weak in the magic phase. However, because the swords make such an effective stick, an extra unit of them allows the army's mobile and ranged units to dedicate themselves to tasks other than supporting my main combat troops early in the game. The big plus? My main attack is now very powerful indeed and can operate without magical aids and with limited shooting support. The minus? The army has greatly reduced dispelling ability compared with Model 1 and, likewise, a reduced ability to transfer my ranged powers around the board at will (since I'll have fewer dice and fewer spells to play with). Dispelling is an interesting issue. On the one hand, not having the Annullian Crystal is a very big difference. On the other, High Magic mitigates the damage somewhat. Drain Magic and Flames of the Phoenix, together, will typically drain away some 4-5 dice from enemy magic phases (assuming they dispel Flames and depending on the number of casts they try and make). The lore acts, therefore, somewhat like a large Anullian Crystal in and of itself (albeit with the usual vageeries of casting magic).
Army Expansion to 3000 points - a Summary ComparisonIn summary, looking at examples such as the above will help you think about how these decisions will affect the way the army plays on the board at increased points levels. It's also, however, worth looking at the specifics to remind yourself what each version of the army actually buys you for your points. In summary, these are as follows.
Model 1 - Banner of Sorcery, Support Caster1) + D3 power dice per magic phase;
2) A two dice swing per enemy magic phase (+scroll);
3) Guaranteed spell selection (High Magic);
4) +1 Shield of Saphery;
5) +1 Drain Magic;
6) +1 Standard (on Swordmasters)
7) Substitute caster/dispeller.
Another version of Model 1 might use a Shadow support caster instead of the extra High Magic, in which case you'd alter the above accordingly. In principle, however, you've spent 220-odd points on D3 power dice, the Annullian crystal and a couple of extra spells.
Model 2 - Another 14 Swordmasters1) + 22 attacks at str5 (assuming 7x2 formation);
2) Elite Redundancy (specifically, you have increased your elite infantry strength by 50%);
3) + 14 wounds to the army;
4) +1 deployment drop;
5) Improved ability to hold board space;
6) Gem of Courage on the White Lions (as good flank anchors, the re-roll + Gem makes up for the likely distance from the BSB).
ConclusionAt the end of the day, can a boosted magic phase contribute as much as an extra unit? For some lists, such as the Coven of Light, or lists wielding a combination of lores featuring high-powered spells (eg Shadow + Metal), magic is a potential game winner in itself. For a list like mine, however (which has already spent plenty of points on characters), is it so essential to get hold of those D3 extra dice? I'm no longer sure...
Skewedviews wrote:
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated, and again thanks for the awesome thread!
I hope the above has helped, Skewedviews, because I can honestly say that your excellent post helped me a great deal! When I first drew up the 3K list I was all fixed on Model 1. I didn't have the Banner of Sorcery at 2.5K, now I could afford it: bam, it's in. A support caster could make my magic phase comprehensive and allow me to, with double High Magic and the Crystal, completely shut down the most powerful enemy magic phases - like the Slann I'm preparing to face. Difficult to resist when I knew I could win combats.
But then your point about the number of models I was putting down made me think of the benefits of continuing to focus on what my list was good at (combat, deployment), while mitigating the fragile state of my elite units, rather than attempting to build a fragile 'jack of all trades' army. Could I not survive enemy magic with the scroll, Drain Magic, Flames of the Phoenix and the improved redundancy provided by my extra elites? What were the benefits to be had by spending so many points on more magic?
It remains the case in larger games that, once you've claimed your free 2d6 power dice per turn, magic brings you diminishing returns for the points spent unless you dedicate it as your main weapon (like the Light Coven). Indeed I recently wrote that, when deciding whether to choose the Banner of Sorcery, you have to look specifically at what it adds to your particular army. As it turns out, and as your post reminded me, this doesn't change at all when building armies at larger points.
So, many thanks for your post, Skewedviews - a real humdinger - and also for your kind comments. And yes, I think I'm going to give 28 swordmasters a try at 3K.
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).
But now, the sober reflections of many a veteran has become, 'on archers'. Period.