Ulthuan

I really should paint up the rest of my army instead of playing Skyrim.

You definitely should! Especially for that re-match and we all know that painted warriors fight way better

Seredain, I really appreciate what you have just said about magic. It might not be true about every army list but it is something worth remembering nevertheless. Good to have wise friends nearby

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Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Just a thought, if he'd not had Throne up on that 7-die spell, wouldn't Cupped Hands have saved him from the miscast? Also, would you have taken the combo-charge against T6 Saurus or not?

Agree with Swordmaster about the magic phase. I have a lesser version of this with Flames. It's a powerful spell (though not quite the game-changer that Dwellers can be) but you don't expect to get it off much. It's there to drain dice and get your smaller spells through. Or as in this game, not be cast at all in favour of dispelling RIP!

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After some research: The name of the item is Divine Plague of Protection and it gives the slann a 2+ wardsave against any kind of ranged attack. And with the discipline "becalming cogitations" (chosen wizard in 24 inches ignores 6s) the slann is nearly immune to dwellers. Don´t want to hijack this wonderful thread. Just add a little for Mallus.

Hey mate. The problem with a "smart mage" and Mr S is definately that, is they will always keep outside 24" of the Slann, BUT just within range of a TG. That means that they can cast Dwellers on the Slann unit without Becalming affecting the cast. Very shrewed huh?

I really do not want to run a solo Slann in typical games, but your idea holds a alot of merit and worth trying out. I may actually like it and drop TG completely. Who knows?

Anyway, This Saturday coming, Mr S and I are having a rematch. I want to keep my current list the way it is, but make some minute tweaks.

I think I used Cupped Hands to save my ass from the Flesh IF because I rolled a 1 to ignore with Throne . His mage was out of LOS so all I could do was ignore miscast.

Yeah, it's easy to forget this when all you can think about is seeing that mother-flippin' slann fall into a hole but, really, when you're packing an army that's full of killers (as so many High Elf armies are), utility spells and smart dispelling are so often the way to go. Not always, mind (in fact using this spell to execute powerful mages is one of its best uses), but often.


Well spotted SA! But yeah, as Mal says, the slann shrugged off a miscast a couple of turns later using the cupped hands (I kept Lecalion safely hidden behind the high-helmeted swordmasters to prevent the 'ol miscast switcheroo), so getting rid of throne at this stage would have forced a miscast, albeit slightly further down the line.

Mwuahaha!

Always remember this, High Elves! Your archmage should be more manoeuvreable than the slann and his guardians (especially if the unit he's sitting in is a big one). Remember to stay out of Becalming range and you should still be able to cast all the spells you need.

Swordmaster,

A wise friend is very helpful indeed!

The Tale of the Wise Friend

In fact, the aforementioned friend is the same bloke that started me thinking very hard about army selection back in 5th Ed. I'd only been playing Brettonians on a regular basis up to that point, and I'd built a 1700 point army (the unusual limit matched our painted models) perfectly tooled for killing knights: basically, a crap-ton of bolts, magically enhanced arrows, Vaul's unmaking and a unit of white lions to finish things off, with my first Seredain model acting as the keystone with a single rank of silver helms and a BSB riding with him. Basically, I deployed in a straight line opposite an opponent, stood still, shot the hell out the opposition for a few turns and annihilated what was left with my knights and white lions. Easy. I went through battle after battle losing maybe 2 or 3 models a game, and became convinced I was brilliant. Except I was only beating a few inexperienced players, and half of those controlled armies which mine was designed to defeat.

The wise friend, who was always pretty good at army design, not to mention a deadly shot with a rock-lobber (back when you had to guess), built an infantry-based orc horde for a 2.5K game. I rocked up, whistling, and then he absolutely steamrolled me. I made a couple of silly mistakes (like forgetting that my griffon rider had the Black Amulet and letting him get eaten by a Wyvern) but, honestly, it was a pasting. Prince Seredain, thankfully, survived, but he left a large number of dead elves behind him. From that point on, I resolved to build armies that could take on anything, and I started thinking very hard about how to do it and how to play them. Of course I've had the wise friend running scared since then...

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The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.

Wise Friends.

I think this is what i like so much about the game. The person who got me back into the game after over a decade of retirement ran a fairly hard hitting WOC list that was doing ok at the local club. Not a killer list as he, by nature is more general player who does not like using horrible combo's but a fairly competitive player so not soft by any standards.

Anyaway, Got me back into playing and after 7-8 games, suddenly could not win against me to save himself. Out manauvered, Out Magiced and out thought.

We broke it down, and got the biggest compliment i have had in the gaming world. Natural tacticition with an eye for when and where to do what and what to do it with. List writing, even when writting fluffy lists or softer list there is a synergie in the list which helps it work.

Anyway, His list has evolved since our early playing days(helpped by the 3 armies i have to give him different things to fight to keep list more like an alcomers list) and he now has a much higher win ratio at the the local club, without sacrificing himself to the evil combo list designs. Or crutch for players who's list will win them the game, instead of how they play them. This last comment might be a bit off but having played against a 3 horde WOC player at the club who had walked through 4 armies in arow because they could not take points off him feel this is valid point. (PS - tabled him with combined list, and after wards gave him feedback on his list). His list had evolved, cause everyone was running big blocks so thats what he needed to do as well. He now runs a more balanced list and is learning to play this quiet well and is still winning games.

Anyaway,Cheers To the Wise friends that help us evolve out lists and improve not only the list, but how we actually play these as well.

Seredain, Spell Archer, Brewmaster, Cuu, Tethlis, Ptolmy to name but a few.....Oh and cause he has made me laugh recently with his brilliant writting style - Headshot!!. makes me want to see what i can do with a shadow prince.....

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8th 2012 Tournie P12 W8 D0 L4
8th 2013 Tournie 7th Ed book P17 W9 D2 L6
Totals P29 W17 D2 L10

Characters.
Calidiane - Captian of the Silver Helms of Saphery. Death Knight of Hoeth.
Maulinerine - Archmage of Life.
Kavineer - Battle-standard Bearer

Hey Seredain, I've got a Fantasy Campaign coming up and was wondering what a 2000 list would be like. I know that you have a version on page 5, but now that you have dropped one of the Bolt Throwers would you change the list significantly?

Cheers!


Hey Malcontent,

I used to hate the idea of hacking my list down to 2K but, actually, I think there are good ways to play it. The painful truth first, though: you have to lose one of your lords. In 2000 points, I don't think you can justify them both (even if you could squeeze them in). There are nice ways around this, though. If you wanted to keep the full-on cavbus (and there are good reasons too - it becomes a correspondingly more powerful unit when your opponent has 500 fewer points to dedicate to stopping it), I'd switch the BSB to a mage knight (High Magic) and bring the Lvl 4 archmage down to a Lvl 2 mage (High Magic, Scroll). Twin Drain magics and a scroll give you good magic defence, while the spell selection of 3 gives you a pretty decent shot at hitting the good spells. Shield of Saphery is there to give you some Lore of Life-style defence.

That's where I'd start. Give me a day or so and I'll have another think on a specific list...


List Edit - the Long Walk to Happiness

I have in fact been thinking on specific lists for some days now. You all know by now how obsessive I can be over the little things. Well, since the Big Change, which saw my eagle count double, the Banner of Sorcery slide in and the 2nd repeater bolt thrower move to the exit door (on account, you'll remember, of my green archers being liberated from eagle duty), I still haven't quite settled down with things as they are. Here are the latest changes, along with some tactical thoughts which emerged from thinking about them.


Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286
Archmage - Level 4, Life Magic, Dispel Scroll - 280
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 300
14 Archers - Musician, Standard - 169
14 Archers - Musician - 159

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
11 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 205
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points


The Talisman of Protection

I flirted with it for one game because I got my archmage killed once by leaving him, like an idiot, within 24" of Mannfred von Carstein. The maths make sense: back then, if I'd had a 6+ ward, I would have had a 50/50 shot at saving the Lecalion from death (since 3 wounds exactly had been caused by one of Mannfred's Death spells). For 10 points, that chance would be have been amazing.

Generally, though, who wants to rely on a 50/50 chance to defend such a valuable model? Either be able to protect him when you put this character in mortal danger, or don't put him in mortal danger at all. A 6+ ward is never going to let me play this guy with anything but my usual level of caution, since it isn't reliable enough.

What are the alternatives? A decent bodyguard might be one. But the other, simple, solution is Earthblood. Life archmages are the best at protecting themselves and, while he's doing it, Lecalion can also be toughening up whatever bunker he's sat in (which always ends up getting hurt because the archmage attracts lots of ranged attention). Another useful spell for me to cast, then, making dispelling harder for my opponent: especially where I'm using Lecalion to throw some regeneration over one of the elite units in the early turns. I could protect the swordmasters from arrows and still have Flesh to Stone to cast, for example. Played properly with a carefully deployed archmage, this spell will be much more useful, all-comers, than Awakening.

More on that later...

The Plucker Pendant

It's back in. I know, flyers aren't that common, but the threat of the pendant, when they do come along (and they know my list), worries them. Where they don't, my prince is a deadly honey trap. And then some flying threats are pretty common: if Prince Seredain has to get stuck in against a pegasus dreadlord, I may not be killing him, but I'll be damned if he's killing me. Another common (and tempting) enemy is the chaos lord on disc - a pretty popular way to run him but one which will greatly benefit my prince for only 5 points.

Ultimately, of course, I must accept that big flyers aren't that common in 8th. However, the metagame may change, and my all-comers army needs to be ready for when it does. More to the point, though, if a mighty enemy hero rocks up riding a terrifying monster, Seredain needs to be able to step up. Who's going to take on the huge enemy beast if the guy on the white horse isn't willing to?

The White Lions

The Gem of Courage is out and, with the 5 points left over from the archmage's lost talisman, I can afford an extra white lion. I like the reliability of the gem but I think I prefer the extra trooper for a few reasons:

1 - It's an extra axe - with relatively few attacks coming from a unit with a 1-attack profile, this can make a difference.
2 - It's an extra wound - Even more important than the above for a unit this size. I refer you to my last battle report against the Daemons of Chaos, where I lost exactly 4 wounds from a white lion unit with 4 models left. Hard not to be annoyed by that, since I had just reduced the unit down from 12 strong.
3 - It increases the frontage of the unit. Where the white lions want to act as a bodyguard for a character (more on that below), this helps keep the character safely out of the action once the axes have swung against favoured opponents.
4 - The gem is very useful for fear tests or the odd swift-reform - both good safety-nets - but its uses are not much greater than that. The nice idea is that the stubborn white lions can test on 3 dice for their steadfast break test but, usually, a losing battle like this will see the champion sacrificing himself (see below), and the gem too.


The Lions and the Knights

I think I like the idea I used to follow more often some games back: that the white lions and silver helms make excellent companions. The lions do their job perfectly with the prince and BSB nearby and, together, both units act as a very killy hammer and anvil (either can do either). The lions' slightly-reduced frontage compared with the swordmasters makes them an easier fit in combination with the knights, too, while the combination itself makes up for the 1-attack profile of each kind of elven trooper.

Importantly, though, the lions and mounted characters are both good at killing similar kinds of enemies and, together, they can do it much more effectively. If there's a big monster marching my way; the lions can cut it down with the help of Life spells but, with the helms acting in concert, I'll trounce such beasts in very short order. By contrast, the swordmasters are better at grinding enemy infantry than the lions to the point where they can act well further toward the centre of the line without direct aid from my cavalry.

This won't always be the case- my army's units are about interoperability- but it does strike me that, generally speaking, the smaller, single-attack white lion-squad with its heavy armour (against shooting) and anvil-like qualities make the unit a perfect companion to the silver helms. I can feel comfortable about pushing them up with the cavalry and leave my opponent with the difficult decision of feeling forced to shoot the lions but leaving the softer swordmasters, standing back and threatening the enemy centre, unscathed.


The Archmage and his Bodyguard

Back to the archmage, then. As discussed, Earthblood is very useful for a small unit of lions. The lions, meanwhile, teaming up with the silver helms and maybe the chariot, are able to steamroll very powerful enemy elites very quickly. What I'm going to try to do, in short, is to get the archmage in the mix a bit more by working him in with this 'silver lion' attack. The crucial details are that:

1 - the archmage will spend much more of the game within 12" of my other characters (and potentially the chariot), giving Lifebloom much more to do and getting me much more 'bang' for each spell cast; as well as

2 - giving me a larger number of effective spells by making Earthblood much more valuable.

What about protecting the archmage? Earthblood obviously now marks itself out as an important spell to my opponent, but so does Flesh to Stone: the duplication of defensive abilities makes dispel-decisions difficult. Dwellers remains an ever-present threat, too, which any opponent must consider when choosing whether or not to dispel Lecalion's protection. This is especially true since, if he joins the white lions and moves up with the silver helms' advance, the archmage will get within short range of Dwellers - cheaper to cast - much more quickly.

At a basic level, however, the white lions themselves provide excellent protection and, here, the new '6-man' frontage matters. Against the units my white lions excel at killing (small elite units), the enemy's frontage will typically be quite narrow after the axes have done their work, or limited to only one rank of models. So, if I wanted to run the archmage with the white lions in order to bestow Earthblood upon them, I could do so much safer in the knowledge that enemy models will not be in contact with Lecalion in enough numbers to kill him, while the archmage's ability to protect my important elites will be greatly improved. If the white lion detachment runs alongside the knights, meanwhile, the archmage has even more impact (via Lifebloom) and is far less likely to be hanging around in these elite-on-elite combats, since I'll be looking to win them very quickly.

In conclusion: What better way to get the most out of your archmage than to keep him close to the troops he needs to protect? And what better way to keep him safe than have your army's best killers on hand to defend him? The trick with this tactic will be knowing just when to cut Lecalion out of these scrapes and retreat him to safety. I'm quite looking foward to seeing, however, just how aggressive I can be with a defenceless archmage!


Anyway, I've got two games coming up: the rematch against Mal's lizards and another game against a war altar+ chosen+ 2 marauder hordes chaos list. Watch this space!

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The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.

I always feel that rolling for spells makes more sense when you want the signature spell. Earthblood is great in itself but for us I guess it's always the issue of not wanting that AM anywhere near danger. Until now it seems! This new plan sounds exceedingly hairy to me but you'll pull it off with your usual nonchalance no doubt Seredain!



It's such an obvious one on the Fighting Lord isn't it? Make him as good as possible! Quite why I leave my guy's Ward at 5+ instead of 4+ and watch him die too often is beyond me. On the 2000pt list I quite fancy two Lords in theory but yeah, maybe this just nerfs the fighter too much.

Very interesting points on the elite infantry. I've been running 10-strong Swordmasters and have been pleased with them but am now upping them to 14. No-brainer decision you might think but it isn't. As you've identified, it becomes more difficult to combo-charge once you're 7 wide. Not to mention that a 10-strong unit looks fairly inoffensive, 14-strong Swordmasters begin to look like a threat. But as you say, the 14 can fight alone if they have to and the extra killing power and sturdiness outweigh the cons in most lists I would say.

Be interesting to see whether Mallas changes his list at all. I quite fancy your guys against this kind of Warriors army but I guess we'll see!

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The core design of my list will remain the same. A few tweaks here and there will be made.

I am still tossing up what to do with my Scar-Vet. Leave him mounted with CoC, or put him on foot and use him to steadfast the Saurus block. I can always leave him mounted and have him join a unit that needs steadfast the most. Decisions decisions...

I am also going to swap Disciplines against Mr S. I think knowing all spells would be much better than trying to get within 24" to make him discard 6's.

That last game I had no Dwellers, remember. So that could have also been a game changer...

I also got a new tattoo last weekend. It says:

"REMEMBER THE ENGINE!!!"

Seredain - have you considered taking this list to a league/tournament with a relatively hard setting, i.e. a place where most people are fairly experienced and play with hard army lists?

The thing is that you've proven how capable this list is in the hands of an excellent general. However, I do believe it lacks proper testing in a tough environment. I don't believe anyone's better suited to try this out than you are, as you have more experience with the list than anybody else. Now I don't know how busy real life etc is for you, but living in the London area it shouldn't be too hard to attend a tourney if you want to? It would be great to see the Cavalry Prince smash apart anything from double-hydra shadow-DE to dual-ironblaster deathstar-Ogres. It would also provide a real challenge for you I believe and it would really put your army to the test.

Personally I really want to make something like this work. How cool wouldn't it be to show up with an army that is definitely not top-tier with a very unusual build, only to win an event? This is, without doubt, a really hard test that I believe anyone seeking to improve their game should, at some point, embark upon. That might sound extreme, but to be honest I don't see anything else providing the same kind of a challenge. Playing High Elves, and particularly with lists like this, provides us with a perfect starting point. Having played this list for well over a year know, you know very well how it works.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::

Haha, yeah I think I can make it work! Let's not pretend this is a tactic that will be suitable for taking on anything, mind. The archmage need never be fielded like this. The bottom line is that an expensive, T3, saveless model needs to stay out of danger. Getting him into protracted combats, or into base contact with elite enemy units, would be foolish.

It does help to remember, however, that the Life archmage has access to regeneration and that, against particular opponents, he need never see combat even where he's running with a combat unit. Say a unit of 5 chaos knights charges my white lions: by the time my axes have swung, the archmage will be out of base contact and just as safe as if he were on the far side of the board. Similarly, if I'm using those archmage lions as part of a combined charge (say helms + chariot) against core 1A infantry, I'll be steamrolling an enemy unit in pretty short order- 1 or 2 rounds. Parked on the edge of this formation, the archmage, especially with regen, flesh to stone or simply just Lifebloom will not be under threat from these sorts of combats. If I'm drawing a long line of combined units across the front of a narrower enemy, of course, the archmage need never be in base contact, and is perfectly safe. His improved spell selection and character-healing powers, though, will typically be of much more use: the mage will have a greater number of viable targets for a greater number of buffs, as well as improved access to a cheaper close-range Dwellers.

Ultimately, the point is that, against the right opponents, getting your archmage stuck in close can have enormous benefits for very minimal risks. The golden rule will be this: minimise or eliminate the attacks coming at your mage; both by placing him on the edge of his unit to keep him away from enemy models and/or (depending on the enemy), by applying overwhelming force to your chosen target. My army is good at this, so I think it'll be correspondingly good at protecting the mage - either by drawing a long line of units to force the mage out of base contact or by laying down so many kills that he can't be brought down by return attacks. These units, in turn, will benefit more from Life buffs which, themselves, can also just be used to protect the mage and his elite unit.

Used wisely, the aggressive Life archmage can form something of a virtuous circle for a list like mine.


Me too - I like fighting warriors. Some serious niggles will be the hell cannon (hate it), Third Eye of Tzeentch (nasty) and, of course, the altar-buffed chosen warriors. I can take them out if they don't get the best bonuses but, if they're 3+ ward and +1 attack or something, I might just have to avoid them. I could always park the prince infront of them and say 'come and have a go' but, while the eagles are still going, he'd probably be put to better use helping to kill other units. We'll see how the enemy army looks I guess!


Didn't help me, did it Mal?

I think you had a good thing going on with Comet and Flesh, to be honest. There's a chance that Dwellers will snipe a Str 4 character (if I sit in range and out of combat), but it isn't to be relied upon and, ultimately, Dwellers isn't as effective against small MSUish elven units. No reason not to take Loremaster, though: the threat of a spell is often more potent that its effects in-game. Looking forward to Saturday!


Good question Curu! The truth is that Time really is at a stretch for me at the moment. I rarely have free workday evenings and my weekends are also typically pretty full, making travel difficult. A weekend tournie in London, though? I can manage that, for sure. I await news of 2.5K tournies taking place in the new year. If I hear of them, I'll rock up and see what can be done. I actually swamped a dual-ironblaster/ gutbus ogres list when I played them the first time (my opponent was inexperienced with them, but my archmage blew up on Turn 1 so I say fair's fair ). I've also got fair experience against Slann lizards (stay out of Dwellers range until your knights hit combat); and I've got units to rush human/dwarf gunlines; I can take hordes out with movement and combo-charges... I'd say I've got a chance.

However I'm conscious, as ever, that my army book knowledge still needs improvement: there are way too many nasty surprises out there which I don't yet know inside out (classic character builds and what they do; greater daemon kits; some of the newer buzz-word magic items)- and that kind of ignorance will be punished at a tournament where your opponent isn't a cool guy who'll let you look at his book. That aside, I think I can take on most armies, as I say. Scenarios in 8th tend to reward flexible lists so, where I'm not pulling Battle of the Pass against a Dwarf gunline, I think I could give it a fair whack.

Anyway, if I enter a tournament when the opportunity arises, you'll hear all about it for sure.

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The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.

If putting your archmage on the front lines have you considered taking Folariath's robe?
I found it very effective at keeping out of harms way while still being in the thick of things to cast spells.
Earthblood is good but when you want to cast so many other spells I don't know if you will find enough dice for it?

Would you still put the AM in the lions if you dont roll throne?

We all know how much misscasts hurt when the AM is with our elites.

At most tournaments this is considered bad form. Many actually state that you should let your opponent read your book if he so requests.

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FriendlyFanatic has a really good point - miscast in our elites hurt like nothing else and you might want to consider this depending on the spells rolled / opponent played in addition to everything else. If you're playing WoC (puppet) or OK (hellheart) for example, this placement is, in addition to any other potential weaknesses, probably sub-optimal.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::

Seredain, I wanted to commend you again on all your efforts, not just with building a brilliant list, but also maintaining the level of civil discourse that you do. Both are high marks and your execution has really shined.

Oberon and my variation of Seredain's 'new model army' have really made 8th edition enjoyable and continue to confound my foes for all the reasons you have listed. Prince Oberon carried me across our league's finish line for first; I then purchased my dragon princes and switched out all my bolt throwers, and I have yet to be disappointed. My version is slightly different: instead of White Lions I prefer a block of 20 PG and I can't part with my all-purpose block of Seaguard (39).

From one Prince to another, thank you sir. Continue the effort.

Hydaspes or bust!

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True to the End.
Prince Oberon, Hand of Tor Yvresse, Lord Admiral, Lord of Tor Lir

Just put down your eagles as far forward as possible, and dupe him into thinking that you will run at him. Then, when he castles on or near his board edge, set your units up on your own board edge, out of range of his warmachines 60" range, and offer a draw.

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"I used to post original comments, but then I took an arrow to the knee." - LSV

A warrior of chaos player nearly did that to my dwarfs last time round but it saw it just in time

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For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"

At least it meant that you had to deploy slightly further forward, not on your edge.

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"I used to post original comments, but then I took an arrow to the knee." - LSV

Just a question about the 2000 point list, specifically about the Prince. What differences would there be when the list is changed? If I take a Cavalry Prince list, the prince would need top stay the same no matter what the list points limit is.

A friend of mine challenged me to try out your list at a tournament this weekend. Since I always run my Wood elves at tournaments I thought it would be fun to try something new out. And since I'm working on a HE army of my own I could not resist the chance to get some games in with a borrowed army

The tournament is comped so I'll be escaping the more classical filth. I do however feel that there will be enough top notch opponents(I think about 2/3 of the ETC team will be there) and I always enjoy playing against the boys in the team since they all seem to under value HE/WE lists and it comes back to bite them

If your interested the comp pack can be found here: http://forum.sverok.se/download/file.php?id=2644

I have modified the list a bit to fit my own play style and the comp pack(Needs a comp value of 10-15 to be allowed in). So I'll be running the following list with the comp(kp) added to the list bellow. I'll try to get some pics and see if I'm able to get a report in after the weekend.

Lords:
1 Prince, General, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, The Other Tricksters Shard, Barded Steed. 286 Pts
-12kp

1 Archmage, lvl4, Lore of Life, Talisman of Preservation, Staff of Solidity. 325 Pts
18(Archmage)+8(lvl4)+10(lore of light)+4(staff of solidity) = -40kp

Heros:
1 Noble, BSB, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Dragonhelm, Dawn Stone, Amulet of Light, Barded Steed. 188 Pts
10(BSB)+5(Noble) = -15kp

Core:
16 Archers, Musician, Banner. 191 Pts
-5kp

12 Archers, Musician, Banner. 147 Pts
-4kp

30 First SpearElves, Full Command, Gleaming Pendant. 300 Pts
-16kp

Special:
8 Silver Helms, Shields, Musician, Banner. 208 Pts
5(Silver Helms)+2(Prince)+2(Noble) = -9kp

5 Dragon Princes, Musician. 160 Pts
-9kp

1 Tiranoc Chariot. 85 Pts
-4kp

12 White Lions, Musician, Banner of the Eternal Flame. 208 Pts
-11kp

12 White Lions, Musician, Banner of Sorcery. 248 Pts
-11(White Lions)+20(Banner of Sorcery) = -31kp

Rare:
1 Great Eagle. 50 Pts
-6kp

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower. 100 Pts
-4kp

Totalt: 2498
Komp: 300-166 = 134 (13,4)

Happy New Year, all!


Yes I have! In fact, since playing a recent fortress-defence battle with 6000 points worth of High Elves (I'm trying to get hold of pics...), I fell a little bit in love with the robe. I'm working on another list edit at the moment which I'm quite excited about but which hasn't seen any games yet. More on that later. The really good thing about the robe, though, isn't protecting the mage from rank and file (unless they're the multiple-attacks kind); it's parking infront of the big stuff which minces your elves but lacks static combat res: the big monsters, steam tanks, chariot units etc. Hard to turn such capability down for an 'all-comers' list, even if you have to think about losing the Banner of Sorcery... Tweaking is just never done is it?


A very good point indeed, Fanatic. Short answer? Probably not, unless circumstances made it necessary. Against ogres I miscast (with Throne up in fact), lost the archmage and, with him, all but 3 of my lions. Not a good start! If in doubt, let your archmage blow up core troops and not elites. Life magic (or spells with low casting-values) allows you bit more flexibility in this respect, but it's an important thing to remember for sure! Losing a template's worth of elites in one go is not something I want to experience very often!


I had to think about this seriously (pretty much for the first time) recently, because a couple of friends are building up new armies and haven't made it to 2.5K yet (Warriors and Dark Elves). I'll post the lists I've thought about later (because it's late and they'll warrant a bit of explanation) but, basically, your choices are (since you have to ditch the level 4 archmage), whether to go for a cut-price defensive magic phase or try and hold on to a decent one. The quickest solution is to take a single level 2, reduce core and lose one of the smaller units- for a list which works much as the larger one but with very basic magic (take High for the ward save and drain Magic). Another alternative is to put the Radiant Gem on the BSB and go for a shield-spam +drain magic phase, hoping for another useful spell from High magic. Another alternative I've toyed with (and like the look of), is an all-archer core (horde of 30 plus 10), backed up by a bolt thrower and 2 level 2's packing High Magic; for cheap spells, Flames, shield and, crucially, Arrow Curse: forcing the enemy forward a bit to open up gaps for the cavalry. In fact, thinking about this variation started me reviewing my 2.5K list, with some interesting consequences... More on that later.

Bottom line? Don't just take the 2.5K list and make it smaller. The moment you take stuff out, it'll change the way the list plays and should affect your other choices. Since I couldn't cram in a mighty BoS archmage phase, for example I felt I needed to buff my shooting. Since I was taking 2 level 2's plus my usual fighting characters (a lot at 2K), the army would be pretty small so, suddenly, the wide-frontage of an archer horde poses less of a problem for deployment etc. For every action, a reaction...


Good luck, Joey! A skeptical friend, I wonder? Let us know how you get on.


Thank you, Oberon, that's very nice of you to say so. I like the 20 PG's: a good anvil units to work alongside knights and, since you have them, there's less need for you to have the spear column, so your switching in of the static seaguard bastion makes more sense than it would in my kind of army. It's always tempting just to lose the bolters, but I've missed having 2 in my army. Combined with some serious archer power and sympathetic magic, there's nothing better for opening an enemy army up to your cavalry by giving your opponent a reason to move against you. Repeaters can be a key element in that. And then, of course, there's the flaming archers+ bolters for taking down the regenerating gribblies...

Any clues yet on where my list-design thoughts have been going, boys?... I've had a couple of games recently but wasn't able to take pictures (Mallas and I haven't sorted our rematch yet, btw - hopefully in a week or two!), so I'm relying on others to forward me photos. Not a guarantee- they were both good games!

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The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.

I really think it's unecessary to further protect your archmage with equipment like the robe. After playing a number of games with a very similar list and losing my archmage several times, but still winning, I conclude he's not essential to victory. He does make that path much easier. Lore of life on a naked archmage does seem to be one of the better lores to take, because of the lore attribute alone.

I have been toying with opening up some points to use 2 mages, high magic, instead of the lvl four and see how that works after reading Swordmasters and Giladis' battle reports of late, but I like the way my list runs ATM. The changes I am going to try in our winter league is cutting the swordmasters down to 2 units of 5 and adding 5 reavers. I really like how Swordmaster has used them to open up huge maneuver traps and pressure on warmachines.

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True to the End.
Prince Oberon, Hand of Tor Yvresse, Lord Admiral, Lord of Tor Lir

Sword Masters are great MSU style ^_^

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.

I guess you're going more shooty.

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"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor

I like reavers too! Hard to snipe with cannons and very fast. If I ever get some painted I might give them a try, though probably (at this stage) only in larger point games as I have such a hard time getting everything I want in as it is that, if I added a new unit to the mix, I'd probably go totally mad.
As for High Magic, there's a lot to be said for it. When you have an army built to take advantage of it (Fury, Shield and Flames are always good, but a fighting lord also loves Vaul's (for killing enemy magic armour), and a decent shooting phase loves Arrow Curse), the whole lore becomes useful and each spell, bar Fury, is a steal for the points. Drain Magic is a nice touch, too. But more on that later - I'm going to be running High soon and I'll put up a little "High vs Life" comparison shortly. For now, though, let's talk about the Robe.


With regard to protecting the archmage as a standalone aim, I pretty much agree with you, Oberon: I can protect the archmage just fine by deploying and moving him properly. But to focus only on this is to forget Warhammer's law of unintended consequences! Although I'm not 100% sold on the Robe (to take it I'd probably have to lose the chariot), here are some of the major plus points of this unique item.


The Benefits of Folariath's Robe


1 - Safety First

Obviously it goes in this list that most things can't hurt your archmage. Few armies run ethereal units so few of your opponents will have many weapons against it. As a consequence your mage is more likely to stay alive and this is obviously a good thing!

2 - Finding Targets

It also makes your mage a better caster, however. How nice to be able to have your model leave units and move 10" in any direction, however he chooses, or stand with the combat troops and march forward safe in the knowledge that he's, well, safe. The freedom to move without pain of death means that you are far more likely to be able to ensure that all of your important spells are in range. Freedom of movement gets you freedom of magic.

3 - Leadership

Since the archmage can stand in combat units with impunity, one of these units will get Leadership 9. For defensive units such as spearelves, this is a nice bonus and you pay nothing extra for it. Think of the cloak as costing 30 points but coming with a free Banner of Discipline.

4 - Using the Guards

Because he has the freedom to move about (unless you're fighting daemons or a bunch of magic missiles), you will not be bound to worry about having a bodyguard unit run with this character throughout the game. Effectively, all your units will be free to do as they please without having to worry about making sure that the archmage is both safe in and range for his spells. For 45 points, you protect the mage, but you also by the freedom of the bodyguards to do what they're best at. In my army, for example, I might no longer need to drag an archer unit around the board: I can instead use them more usefully as part of my shooting base, or as a flanking/harassment unit, and therefore make better use of their points.

5 - You Shall Not Pass!

High Elf generals all over Ulthuan are fretting, at the moment, about the number of big beasts stomping around the Warhammer world. They thunderstomp, they're tough and our soft infantry doesn't like them at all. There are a myriad of partial solutions to these monsters which, when combined properly, work very well. Cavalry characters, for example, don't get thunderstomped and hit very hard. Magic can make our troops killers (Shadow) or tough enough to outlast the monster (Life). A decent shooting phase, backed up by sympathetic magic (especially Arrow Curse and Withering), can fill them full of holes and easily allow your ASF attacks to finish the job before the stomping starts.

If, however, these weapons are busy fighting other things, or if you've rolled terrible dice or, indeed, if the enemy has taken a lot of these big monsters (or you're looking at a steamtank and you don't have Metal or Shadow), the Robe Archmage is your final solution. These big monsters have no static combat res: if you hit them with the Robe archmage, then, they'll be stuck there. This isn't a temporary fix, either. You've spent 45 points on an anvil which a 175pt+ monster can't break. Since your mage can still cast all his buffs and hexes in combat unaffected, that's a big win on points. Get a flank or rear-charge in there with your robed mage and you may even break some of these beasts (don't try it with Abominations, mind: they might be magical).

Other hard-hitting units with low static combat res are also good targets if you keep some decent leadership close. In this battle here, Tethlis performs a lovely move by charging his archmage out and pinning a whole chariot unit for as long as he needs for the dragon princes to come riding to the rescue. Such a move is an absolute steal for 45 points and I can just imagine the frustration those tomb kings must have felt!

6 - Combined Charges

Closely related to 5. Remember that, if you can successfully pin a unit with the Robe, you can take all the time in the world setting up a charge against it. As long as the enemy doesn't have a lot of static combat res (no fully ranked units then), and you keep your BSB (and prince) nearby, you can charge the mage in and, with your other units, close in for the kill while the enemy unit is pinned. For cavalry in particular, the chance to get a free flanking move against a static enemy is gold.

Conclusion

Really, then, your 45 points buys you an enviable amount of utility over and above the safety of your main caster. The question for me now is, do I want this brand of utility (plus a couple of extra white lions) over that granted me by the chariot? Only time, and some play-testing, will tell. In any case, here's the list I'll be trying out for my next game (unless I baulk at the last minute and reach out for my beloved chariot anyway)...


You're maybe looking at two anvil units, there.


High Magic and the Cavalry Prince

Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Folariath's Robe, Dispel Scroll - 325
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command - 295 (archmage here)
18 Archers - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 223
10 Archers - 110

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Ironcurse Icon - 227
12 White Lions - Guardian, Gem of Courage - 202
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points

If I did decide to keep the chariot (it's utility in defense of my shooting base or in offense alongside my cavalry is simply wonderful for an all-comers army); I'd be losing the Robe, 2 white lions and 10 points' worth of toys to get it back in. I'll see how the above looks and plays on the field, though, and report back when I next get a game in. In any event the big change, as you see, is the switch to High Magic...


Bingo!

As ever, thanks for reading.

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The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.

Hi Seredain!

I used a version of your Cav list in a tournament this weekend and ended up 14th out of 40 players. I was tied for first going in to the second day, but sadly a 8 dice mindrazor stopped that

Anyway. I found that some of the things in the list was not really all to my liking. The lack of shooting to deal with enemy re-directors was one of the main issues I had and it made a big impact in my last game when I played against Ogres and could not kill the cats and gorgers fas enough. The second main problem I had was the lack of flexibility with the magic. I needed to cast flesh to stone on the SH-buss against a lot of opponents and it was a bit of make it or break it.

My thoughts on how to compensate for the main issues I had with the list? Well more shooting just like you seem to be doing and to mount my AM. This allows me to have 2 great buffs on the unit, +T and Reg. Both will work really well, and keep my AM close to the fight so he can heal the Characters. I also get the added bonus of being able to cast flesh to stone on another unit and Earth Blood on the Silver Helms, adding more potency to the army and it's ability to take a beating. Now I played with the Staff of Solidity this weekend and I must say it was amazing! Against the good players who dispel Throne every turn it really shined and allowed med to force spells in the following magic phase where I rolled 5-6PD vs 2-3DD. I could comfortably throw all the dice at the important spell(mostly Flesh since my Cav was in the thick of it) without bothering with the effects of miscast!

I did however really, really enjoy playing with the list and it was great fun! So I'll be getting my self a Cavalry army instead of just lending the minis from friends. It will be a great compliment to my WE who dislike being in combat

So this is what I have come up with after the paltry 5 games I played with the army:

Lords:
1 Prince, General, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, The Other Tricksters Shard, Barded Steed. 286 Pts

1 Archmage, lvl4, Lore of Life, Staff of Solidity, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon, Barded Steed. 339 Pts

Hero:
1 Noble, BSB, GW, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawn Stone, Amulet of Light, Barded Steed. 190 Pts

Core:
18 First Archers, Musician, Banner of the Eternal Flame. 223 Pts

10 Archers, Musician. 115 Pts

30 SpearElves, FC. 295 Pts

Special:
8 Silver Helms, FC. 224 Pts

21 White Lions, Musician, Banner of Sorcery. 383 Pts

6 Dragon Princes, Musician. 190 Pts

Rare:
1 Great Eagle. 50 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower. 100 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower. 100 Pts