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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Because he is? :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:25 pm 
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BorkBork wrote:
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
It is already difficult to wait for the report and now you made the teaser even more interesting


why do i get the picture that you are sitting almost crouched behind you pc, with shaking hands holding a sigarette and a bottle of wiskey, while the floor is littered with empty packages and you are mumbling: "battle report, battle report, i want battle report" ;)


I hope he is not doing this on a public computer and I really hope he is wearing trousers at the very least...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Sirgilly wrote:
BorkBork wrote:
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
It is already difficult to wait for the report and now you made the teaser even more interesting


why do i get the picture that you are sitting almost crouched behind you pc, with shaking hands holding a sigarette and a bottle of wiskey, while the floor is littered with empty packages and you are mumbling: "battle report, battle report, i want battle report" ;)


I hope he is not doing this on a public computer and I really hope he is wearing trousers at the very least...

Haha! Fortunately (especially for you, guys!) nothing like that had happened. Appropriate training from White Tower and some paining-meditation did help to control myself :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Seredain!

I just faced off yesterday against my local Warriors of Chaos player armed with your new list and your advice. He normally fields an all-cavalry Marauder/Knight army but this time he used largely Warriors on foot backed up with Warshrines and Tzeentchian magic. I was a little nervous about facing him as he has a track record of being undefeated!

We had Dawn Attack which played havoc with deployment, but the superior Elven mobility and good use of eagles allowed me to redeploy and apply combined arms to pick off his units.

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High Elf deployment (from L to R): chariot; archers; eagle; Silver Helms; archers and archmage; eagle; dragon princes; RBT; spears; white lions; swordmasters.

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Warriors of Chaos deployment (from L to R): warshrine; chaos warriors; hounds; chaos knights and Lord; marauders; warshrine; chaos warriors and sorceror; more chaos warriors

Managed to re-group on my left flank to smash his right flank with combined arms. Abandoned the brave archers, eagles and chariot to face the oncoming horde of chaos warriors. Eagle did great in luring the Chaos Knights & Lord up a scree slope (Dangerous Terrain killed a knight that my eagle would have had an uphill task with breaching his armour). The scree slope also had the effect of trapping the Chaos Knights for the rest of the game. Late game, the final unit of archers, placed near the board edge helped draw the chaos sorceror off the board and giving me some magic phase breathing space.

Swordmasters got really mangled trying to repulse 20+ chaos warriors from a building. Cramped confines clearly aren't good for great weapons. Lucky for them being in a building made them steadfast and prevented pursuit or else it would have been curtains. They played hide and sneak the rest of the game to save the Banner of Sorcery.

White Lions were able to take down a warshrine on their own with 50% casualties over two rounds.

The RBT did stirling work in whittling down the Knights. By Turn 2 his Chaos Knights and Lord had panicked and were fleeing, although they later rallied. :)

Archers and chariots were able to wipe out the Marauder bloc and hold up the advance of some 35 Chaos Warriors.

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Combined arms mash-up. Sweet.

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Turn 4 and 5: the High Elves regroup on the left flank and hold the line as Chaos advances. Unfortunately we were downwind of the Nurgle general on the hill. The unbearable stench finally prompted a Turn 6 charge up the scree slope.

I took my time first conquering then regrouping patiently on the left flank as the large Chaos Warrior blocs ground down my right flank and ate up the archers. Careful placement of an archer unit near the table edge allowed me to lure the Chaos Sorceror off the board in pursuit to but me a little magickal breathing space late game. The Chaos Lord and his two remaining Knights watched the carnage from atop the hill. Though I knew they stood a good chance of winning combat if allowed to freely melee, I finally charged them on the hill with my Helms and spears, but played tricksy by letting the poor spear champion challenge him (I remember my ugly match up with an Orc Warboss v the Prince last time). That contained the Lord's damage potential and allowed me to win combat. Unfortunately he passed his Break test as I only won by 4 (versus Ld10).

In the final turn the Prince faced off against the Chaos Lord in a challenge that left them both one wound down and he again passed his break test.

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The Nurgle Lord rails in pestilent defiance, but the jig is up.

End result:
I was 17 points short of a crushing victory (i.e. nearly double his Victory Points). I had only lost 2 eagles, 2 archer units and the chariot. All he had left were his Lord, 2 units of Chaos Knights (and Sorceror) and 1 warshrine. Very pleased with the result especially since this was his first defeat. Next time, he'll probably field his cavalry army.

Some thoughts on the list:

The Prince is great for carving up rank and file and elites, but its still tough for him to win challenges against brutes like a Warboss or Chaos Lord. However, the Talisman is great (and psychologically potent) and the re-rollable armour save is a gem. I find myself having to be less gallant and more crafty with the Prince, which I can rationalise somewhat given that Elves can be pompous and conniving. After all, there must be something behind wearing a talisman of the trickster god Loec, eh?

Btw, since the wound inflicted by the Talisman happens at "the end of the phase", it isn't factored into Combat Resolution, right?

Gleaming Pennant saved the spears from an embarassing panic. Swordmasters struggled with chaos armour. Life magic was steady but not brilliant due to some poor rolls or low Winds (I had Throne, Flesh to Stone, Shield of Thorns and Regrowth). Thrones consistently sucked away his Dispel dice. I took the tack of casting some ugly spells like a boosted Flesh to Stone on my spears early to intimidate him. Not sure if it worked, but it kept his Dispel Dice very busy.

Tzeentchian magic wasn't such a bother given our high Ld and luckily my elites were mostly out of range from his Sorceror for Treachery of Tzeentch (he had to content himself with archers making S3 attacks against themselves). Banner of Sorcery played a quiet but consistent role in beefing up Winds to properly service a Lvl 4 caster's needs.

The White Lions were very nice to have against the Chaos Knights and the Warshrine. High S really helped negate high armour/toughness (he was boasting 2+ saves on infantry). I would have loved to have unleashed metal magic on his army. Next time :)

Anyway, as ever I enjoyed playing with your list. It fits my model collection and play style perfectly. Thanks for the inspiration.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:13 am 
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The Cavalry Prince
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ether_drake wrote:
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Combined arms mash-up. Sweet.

This is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Nice report, Ether Drake - I enjoyed reading it. Deployment was all a bit random but you used your manoeuvreability well to take the most advantage of it. Well played.

Time I got on with my own, eh?

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Last edited by Seredain on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:14 am 
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Battle Report – High Elves vs Lizardmen

Army lists

High Elves

Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec - 281
Archmage - Level 4, Life Magic, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Protection - 290
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 300
14 Archers - Musician, Standard - 169
14 Archers - Musician - 159

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
10 White Lions - Full Command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Eternal Flame - 200
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

2 Eagles - 100
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100

= 2500 points

Lizardmen

Slann – Becalming Cognition, Focus of Rumination, Cupped Hands, some other stuff, BSB
Skink Priest – Engine of the Gods, stuff
Scar Veteran – Great Weapon, 1+ AS

30 Saurus Warriors - Hand Weapons, Shield, Full Command
42 Cohort Skinks - Full Command, 2 Kroxigor
10 Skink Skirmishers - blowpipes
10 Skink Skirmishers - blowpipes

12 Temple Guard – Standard, Musican
5 Saurus Cavalry – Standard, Musician
3 Terradons

5 Chameleon Skinks - blowpipes
5 Chameleon Skinks - blowpipes
1 Salamander
1 Salamander

Spells

The Slann got regeneration, flesh to stone, throne of vines and regrowth (no Dwellers, aha). The skink, annoyingly, rolled the Comet. Bastard.

Lecalion did fine and got awakening, throne, stone and Dwellers. I had to choose between regrowth and Dwellers in the end... and the chance to plonk a Slann from afar was just too tempting.

Deployment

This lizardman army had a good array of light units, but the two chameleon units weren't going down until last so, in the end, I had plenty of time to watch where the infantry blocks were going and devise a plan accordingly. Indeed, Mallas had deployed his characters by the time my helms were due to deploy, so I pretty much had free reign to decide where the cavalry would attack.

To my mind (as regular readers will know), the best way to use the helms is to steamroll smaller elite units (enemy cavalry, monsters, elite infantry etc) on the flanks, before turning in and hitting the bigger blocks in conjunction with the infantry. In this instance, however, there was little room on my right to manoeuvre the knights, whereas on my left was a huge expanse of open field which I could use to move into an excellent attacking position, safe from harassment by the fast-moving hard-hitting lizardman units on the far side of the board. Further, Mallas' placing of his cavalry and monster by the building gave me an advantage in defence; blocking off charges for him and making it much more likely that my lions could do some serious damage with a well-timed counter-attack.

On my right, then, the white lions would use the building as the cornerstone of my defence, while my archers and repeaters eroded the light lizard units. The chariot would provide 'exclusion zone' cover to protect them from the skinks and salamander. To cover my left flank once the knights had vacated the space, my green archers occupied the building. No chameleons, terradons or adventurous salamander could venture by this space without getting shot.

For their part, the lizards intended to swing their powerful units through my right flank and join combat as their infantry was hitting the centre of my army. The question was, who could get there fastest?

The chameleon skinks went down on my far flanks, where I'd placed an eagle (left) and the chariot (right). Only I'd been incredibly sloppy with the chariot deployment, trying to keep a bead on the terradons, and leaving the chameleons on the right just enough room to deploy out of its line of sight. Ugh. Stupid. The terradons vanguarded up to the building, to shelter from my missiles, and it was game on.

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The armies arrayed for battle.

High Elves Turn 1

I won the roll-off and, since I didn't want my chariot to get darted to death, I was happy to take the first turn. Before anything else shifted, though, my eagle on the far left flank, safely hidden behind the forest from the enemy chameleons, burst over the trees and then swooped against the little camo lizards who, calmly, blew on their pipes, rolled three 6's and darted the poor bird to death. 1-0 Lizardmen.

This was bloody annoying but there was no way it was going to affect The Plan. My cavalry were pretty much dart-proof, so they marched forward into the open field, the princes veering left to bring the salamander into charge range (he couldn't get out of line of sight, either), the silver helms cresting the hill to stare down against the arrayed ranks of saurus and their attendant skirmishers. On the right, the chariot duly spun round and headed to the flank of the blue archers, turning outswards once in position to case an exclusion zone around the hill to discourage lizard light troops (be they skirmishers or terradons) from landing in the open field below.

I didn't get much off in the magic phase. Throne of vines went up on the archmage (which I was happy with), but the follow-up - flesh to stone on the silver helms - was dispelled. Shooting was also a bit of a non-event. I may have pinged a skink or two, but not much more than that. The terradons were well hidden behind their building, so I'd have to bide my time before filling them full of arrows.

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”It wasn't supposed to be like this...”

Lizardmen Turn 1

My opponent's movement phase was unexpected and, it was already clear, would change the entire game from the one I'd been expected. The question would now be, who would adapt the fastest? The pace of my knights had obviously startled the Slann because he immediately ordered his own fast attack units- the stegadon and saurus cavalry- pivoted and dived toward the inside of the ruined building to move toward their army's threatened right flank. The infantry wasn't keen to rush to its doom until this help was on hand, so they stood pretty still. The light troops were more active though, and advanced, especially on my left. The 10 skinks marched right into the teeth of my knights, while the nearby salamander closed in for a flank shot on the helms- the one and only shot he'd get before the princes hit him in the face. The chameleons completed the surround and moved in from behind, blowpipes at the ready. On my right, the little lizards held back slightly: if any of them came too close, they'd have a chariot in their face. Better to sit back and wait until the salamander could get involved...

In the magic phase, my opponent rolled a lot of dice and rolled them well. Throne went up (and mine went down), followed by a shield of thorns on the skinks facing the helms, but I easily dispelled Flesh to Stone on those same skinks. Those little creatures were short for this world!

Shooting - A whole array of darts pinged into the silver helms but couldn't get through the fine elven mail. The salamander, staring down the galloping dragon princes, took his chances with the helms and burned a couple to ashes. Their brethren, however, buoyed by the cries of their leader, paid no attention and rushed onward.

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The elven right flank finds itself well-covered by chariotry as reptilian light troops hover in the distance.

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On the elven left, Ulthuan's finest shrug off Lustria's primitive missiles and prepare to clear out the Lizards' right flank.

High Elves Turn 2

On the left flank, my knights lowered their lances and careered into their targets: silver helms into skirmishers and, to their left, dragon princes into the salamander. Neither unit had any chance of getting away, so they held and hoped to get lucky. To cover the cavalry as it advanced, the swordmasters and spears moved up in turn, forming a stepped formation all the way down to the lions, who now stood covering the spearelves' right flank. Behind the swords, the green archers vacated the building and faced out towards my left flank, making sure that, if the chameleons tried to move up and take pot-shots, they'd get a face full of arrows, and allowing Lecalion, who moved into the unit, to stand in range and sight of the saurus block (but out of range of the Slann's becalming), for a big juicy Dwellers. To prevent the terradons from having anywhere to land for drop rocks, my remaining eagle retreated from its hide by the ruined building and landed between the spears and white lions. My army was now a stepped wall of mutually supportive units.

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The terradons are locked out as the High Elves form a wall of advancing steel.

The magic phase started well, because I rolled a lot of dice. Then it went badly, because my Dwellers roll against the saurus, following Throne of Vines, was just embarrassing. Nuffink. At the end of it all, however, something approaching a smile passed across my lips as the skninks' shield of thorns broke uselessly against my armoured knights.

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Lady Luck makes her allegiance known.

Shooting went better, as the green archers killed a few chameleons, the repeater thudded two wounds into the salamander and the blue archers put so many arrows into the skink skirmishers that they fell back in panic.

Combat, and the force of my cavalry was too much for the skirmishing reptiles. The slamander barely had time to register its fate before its heavy body crashed to the ground, while the skink formation was utterly shattered: all were slain in a matter of moments. The dragon princes reformed to face back toward the centre and the silver helms overran, presenting their flank to the waiting saurus warriors. “What??” you cry! Well, think of it like this: saurus unit charge the flank of the helms. Caradath 'makes way' into the flank, standing behind Seredain. Now, I get a bunch of kills, the saurus have two impregnable characters to bounce off, I hold, the swordmasters take a flank charge against the saurus next turn: dead lizards. The question was, would my opponent take the bait?

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With his elite swordsmen hovering close by, Seredain attempts to lure the saurus warriors into a trap.

Lizardmen Turn 2

Annoyingly, the skink skirmishers on my right, rallied. More annoyingly, the saurus didn't charge the helms. They elected to form line to close off their flank, spread out into horde formation and stayed on the defensive. The terradons likewise felt that discretion was the better part of valour and, with nowhere to advance, retreated behind the saurus cavalry who, along with the stegadon and their veteran leader, had moved up in line with the skink cohort. The Slann, brewing his magicks, camped safely behind with his little unit of temple guardians...

...and put most of his effort into casting Flesh to Stone on the saurus warriors to deter my knights from charging next turn. I dispelled everything else and, anyway, I wasn't about to take that charge just yet. With the silver helms, dragon princes and swordmasters all moving up on the left, I had the means to form the best horde-smashing combo-charge imaginable...

Image
The reptilian regiments move to guard their flanks and attempt to form a solid defensive line.

The lizards would have the last laugh this turn, though. The salamander, figuring it was dead anyway, marched up to the hill on my right flank and unleashed a firestorm against the blue archers, burning five to death and forcing the remainder to retreat, very nearly off the board. The repeater crew held their nerve, but the slaughter was terrible and the blue archers, meant to advance as light infantry up the right flank and pose my opponent some problems, would now find it very difficult to get back in the game.

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The archers cannot stand against the salamander's fire and abandon their post.

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End of Lizardmen Turn 2

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Last edited by Seredain on Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:11 am 
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Hi Seredain!

Good to see that postponed battle report started. :) I must admit I really like the development of the battle so far. And I admire Mallas and his patience. The trap was not that difficult to spot but then it was also very tempting to attack anyway. He had +5 to combat result before it even started. But I think he is definitely better with his rock solid battle line and the way he keeps denying you that flank attack is excellent. What is also great about his approach so far is that often changing the formation is asking for trouble. He manages to keep his units together, pushes nice pressure on your regiments and blocks easy ways of setting combo-charges.

I expect you to charge that Salamander with a chariot and hopefully get rid of it but I keep wondering how are you going to re-arrange your battle line to prepare charges next turn. Mallas is already close and might be able to charge soon if not sooner than you.

Looking forward to next turns, hopefully they will appear sooner than later :)

Cheers!

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:49 am 
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Hey Mate!
Can't wait for part 2 of the battle report! Keep up the good work!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:01 pm 
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He's alive!

:)

I too enjoyed Ether Drake's picture. Though the ancient Ork Scorcha visible on the left brought back unhappy memories for my Eldar.

Very interesting battle report so far. Some nice little moves by both players but what happens when push comes to shove?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
This is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Nice report, Ether Drake - I enjoyed reading it. Deployment was all a bit random but you used your manoeuvreability well to take the most advantage of it. Well played.


Ah, sweet memories :)

Thanks! Look forward to hearing how the Lizards get trounced! And welcome back.

@SpellArcher - btw, the Ork Scorcha was an impromptu Idol of Gork (or is it Mork) courtesy of the store's bitz box. Petrified for all eternity for unspecified crimes against Eldar...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Good to see you're still alive!

As for your game - you've got a pretty good start! From the standing now, I'm hoping you played the rest roughly as follows:

- First thing to realize is that you have the superior ranged firepower. With Dwellers going off every single turn within range of his Slann, he has to advance to keep you pressured. This gives your cavalry lots of opportunities
- Turn the Helms around and force him to come to you. The way he's currently standing means he can't bring everything forwards (they'll just get in eachother's ways!). You should capitalize on this as you have plenty of room to manoeuvre and perfect setups (cavalry on his flank, Lions threatening a potential stegadon approach)
- As he draws closer, set up the combined charges needed to collapse a flank and then roll over the rest as we're so used to seeing in this thread :D

Something tells me that this didn't go as games usually do though, but gives us the rest so we can see :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:45 pm 
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I am alive! In summary: London busy and expensive; trainee v busy; a couple of colds, a birthday (with some trips) and about 3 or 4 days of boozing (mostly, but not exclusively, birthday related).

Back to serious business, I see some interesting predictions cropping up there, boys. Curu, remember that, although I have Dwellers, my opponent has the comet. I also have a limited supply of eagles (well, one eagle) and that saurus horde just drew itself into a beautiful line, so I don't need the flank. Do a maths test and see what the helm bus, dragon princes and swordmasters do to a horde of saurus...

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I must admit I really like the development of the battle so far. And I admire Mallas and his patience. The trap was not that difficult to spot but then it was also very tempting to attack anyway. He had +5 to combat result before it even started. But I think he is definitely better with his rock solid battle line and the way he keeps denying you that flank attack is excellent.

He's wily, eh? He's built a tough nut to crack here. One of the more careful opponents I've played. He doesn't throw units away unless he thinks he can get something for the points. It's a rarer approach to battle than some people think- and can certainly poses problems when there's little room for manoeuvre.

So, let's see what happens, shall we? I'll keep the thing coming up in installments...

High Elf Turn 3

Mallas' lizards had dodged one trap but, in so doing, they were slipping into another. The new wide frontage of the saurus warriors provided me with an enormous amount of frontage in which to squeeze my best fighters. The silver helms, dragon princes and swordmasters all strode toward the saurus, weapons ready. The princes, conscious that they couldn't take a charge from the enemy, stood back slightly and stayed sheltered in the narrow gap between their fellow elites. If the saurus attempted to break out by charging the helms or swords, however, they'd present a flank. The swords weren't an option even- the saurus would abandon their flank and leave the temple guard open. The silver helms, meanwhile- led by their prince- were solid. All I had to do was make sure my troops were covered from the other lizardman units.

Cue the single best 50 points ever spent by elf: my last eagle flew forward from its station in the rear and landed right on the corner of the cohort and saurus cavalry units, blocking either from charging or even wheeling next turn and angling itself to ensure that the stegadon, if it charged, would block its allies, run harmlessly into the open and present a flank to my infantry. The lizards' left flank, which was supposed to be riding to the rescue of its right, was now stuck and, if any of its free elements leaped out into the open, they'd be set upon by an encircling ring of elven infantry. To prevent the terradons from rocking my swordmasters, the green archers moved up in their wake and blocked off any 20” landing space. Despite the little disaster on my right flank, I was beginning to feel very, very confident.

So confident, in fact, that the chariot, rather than charge the limping salamander, headed toward the centre of the field to add its strength to supporting the infantry. I figured my repeater could finish the reptile and, with the blue archers rallying, I wasn't worried about the skinks either.

Image
The most annoying eagle in the world. Also note that, once again, the terradons have nowhere to land to drop rocks.

Magic: and time for Lecalion to shine. It didn't start well, with a poor roll for power dice (my third in a row), giving me 6 power dice to my opponent's 5 dispel dice. The Banner of Sorcery gleamed with power, however, and brought me back into the phase with a total of 9 dice. Flesh to Stone went up on the swordmasters to give them T7 (in case the stegadon tried anything), but once again it was all about Dwellers Below on the Slann... If I got him at this stage, the saurus would be defenceless and it would surely be game over. Lecalion, who this whole time had been hovering just out of range of the Slann's becalming, but just within range of the temple guard threw 6 dice and...

Image
Foiled again.

Damn. Still, shooting was fine. The green archers were busy supporting the swordmasters, so it was all down to the repeater, which duly skewered the salamander. Discussions started up about which bit of a salamander makes the best moccasins.

Image
The elven lord gathers his best warriors for the horde-smashing combo-charge.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:36 pm 
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From the diagram it looks like it's pretty easy for him to charge either your Helms or your Swordmasters with his Horde. Remember, all he has to do is touch your unit and you can be forced to close the door. Also, his big skinks can easily free reform past your Eagle to block the Swordmasters off.

Of course, another opportunity for him is to simply charge the Helms. Quick math shows that this combat likely won't see anyone run for a couple of turns at least, assuming neither are supported. However, the first turn could be crucial and I'm curious as to why you didn't free reform here: why would you present him with all those soft silver helms to chop at? If you're just a little bit unlucky you could lose against the Horde charging you. Reforming to 3 wide would present rock hard targets to him and you don't need that rank anyway.

So - what would I do in the Lizards place? Dual-charge the Eagle (of course). Free reform skinks to block off Swordmasters (have fun!). Move terradons to angle the Dragon Princes into the Silver Helms (an expensive move, but necessary given his situation). Next turn - your turn. You can charge the Skinks with the Swordmasters but you wont achieve anything. The Stegadon's unavailable because of the Skinks are in your path. The Dragon Princes can only charge the Terradons while the Helms can only charge the Horde - unsupported. This sets up for a great next turn for the Lizardmen player: he can combo-charge your Swordmasters with the Stegadon; combat reform skinks to allow his Cavalry to help out his Saurus Horde. Once Swordmasters die your flank will be in trouble. A solution here is to get the Lions in against the Stegadon before your Swordmasters die. Maybe Spearelves could do the same job.

I don't think your situation is horrible at all but I would've waited one more turn I believe. It appears you presented him with a couple of viable moves. Can't wait for the rest!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Lizardmen Turn 3

The lizards' response to the gathering storm was, at first, mute. The saurus attempted their break-out with a charge against the silver helms, but their heart wasn't in it and they stuttered to a halt after only 3” of movement. Unless the Slann's magic could save them, those saurus were toast, my elites and knights would move behind lizard lines to complete a deadly surround, the slann would be utterly exposed and the game would be mine.

In rest of the movement phase, the other lizards simply hunkered down: they couldn't assault my units, what with the blocking eagle (the skinks took a bit of a reform and a wiggle to move round him), so the saurus were left to fend for themselves. As for the enemy on my right, the fact remained that, if the stegadon moved out into the open, he was going to get surround by elven infantry. Until his fellows could come into play, or I threw a unit out unsupported, he would have to wait. Mallas ran a few plays to open up the board for a more active defence, then: the scar veteran charged the poor eagle and the terradons, frustrated at being locked out of the game so far, rushed forward and landed temptingly in front of the white lions.

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If the elves thought the lizardmen had no tricks left, however, they were in for a terrible, terrible surprise. The reptilian army might have been paralysed by harassment and faltering feet for this turn, but their mighty sorcerous leader was still in very fine health and was about to show me the value of humility. Mallas had been rolling well so far and, devastatingly, this phase saw 11 dice land on the table. The reptilian mages stretched their green fingers and began to unleash magical ruin on my plans. First off, the skink priest summoned a comet from the ether with 5 dice and directed it, looming massively, toward the swordmasters and green archers. The Slann had 6 dice left- 7 including his free one, and I knew exactly where they were going. Lecalion held his scroll out in preparation but, sure enough, the Slann got his spell through irresistibly, shrugged off the miscast and turned his saurus horde into solid rock. For my gathering elites, and my whole battle plan, this was a disaster.

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”No.”

I was kicking myself. Yes, I'd had the scroll to hand but, if I'd spent some power dice getting rid of the throne of vines, the Slann would have had far fewer disposable dice or, at least, I could have been looking at T6 rather than T8 saurus or the absence of a massive comet hurtling towards my army. I had gone for the killing blow with Dwellers and, when it missed its mark, I'd left my magic defence exposed. The combat phase saw a small, though wonderful, bit of payback as the eagle only took one wound from the Scar Veteran and held his ground but, frankly, this was pretty small fry. I was in trouble.

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Perhaps aware of the unfolding crisis, the eagle battles hard and holds his ground against the saurus hero.

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End of Lizardmen Turn 3

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:08 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Battle Report – High Elves vs Lizardmen
Lecalion did fine and got awakening, throne, stone and Dwellers. I had to choose between regrowth and Dwellers in the end... and the chance to plonk a Slann from afar was just too tempting.

Huh, I would have gotten rid of awakening, what was the reasoning behind this?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:03 pm 
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High Elves Turn 4

Well, first off, I obviously couldn't charge the saurus any more. They were going to be T8 for the next two combat phases so, if I took the charge, I'd have 3 expensive combat units getting tarpitted by one, and it would allow plenty of time for the stegadon, saurus cavalry, temple guard and skink cohort to move in together and crush my isolated spears, archers and archmage. If I put my helms into them, on the other hand, they'd eventually be ground out and the characters would be stuck there. The High Elves needed a Plan B.

I was proud of my eagle and everything but, honestly, he was now a bit of a pain. The easiest next plan would have been to back the cavalry off and redirect my swords into the saurus cavalry – there was still plenty of room passed the skinks – but now the bird was blocking this path. I still had the spearelves and white lions, however. With my heroes fighting alongside, they might have the muscle to break through on the right and, with my swordmasters and knights playing hold-up on the left, cut their way through to the Slann and end this thing. With only 3 turns to go, though, could it be done in time?

The chariot kicked things off by charging the terradons, running them down and (mistakenly) overrunning into the saurus cavalry (for future reference- if you hit fleeing foes, you stop and test to reform).

On the left, the moment he felt a flood of power fill the air and saw his foes turning stony grey before his eyes, Seredain let out an enormous shout and the bellowing of warhorns brought the elven knights to a shuddering halt. He left his brave silver helms with simple orders – hold them for as long as you can - and galloped, his standard bearer alongside him, toward the centre of the field. The Lizardmen were living by the Slann, they would have to die by him too. As the silver helms formed a last-ditch angled road-block against the saurus horde the swordmasters, with nowhere else to manoeuvre, moved up into the teeth of the cohort and prepared to hold their ground to buy their leaders time to lead the new attack. The spearelves, hearing the cries of their lord, surged forward in the wake of the chariot while, to their right, the white lions, axes gleaming with unnatural fire, assaulted the skinks in the building- only one falling to the hail of darts which greeted them. The dragon princes, meanwhile, backed off to buy some room against the saurus horde.

In the magic phase, another looming disaster struck: the comet slammed into the ground by the green archers and erupted over an enormous 10” to hit them, the swordmasters and, running as a pair, my two fighting heroes. The characters managed to shrug off the shockwave but 5 swordmasters collapsed, blood streaming from beneath their armour, and fully 10 archers were shattered by the blast, leaving their brothers reeling from the shock. Lecalion, calling out amidst the commotion, barely held his remaining troops together.

Perhaps unable to concentrate as his citizen guards fell dying in droves, the archmage again suffered from a lack of power, but he had just enough to dispel the Slann's throne and to force up Flesh to Stone on the now desperate swordmasters, turning them from glass hammer to much-needed anvil. The repeater, with little else to do, thudded a few bolts into the temple guard but couldn't get passed the engine's shield.

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Even as the spearelves rush into the breach, urged on by their heroes, the elven left begins to bow under the weight of enemy magic.

In the combat phase, the lusty chariot crushed two saurus cavalry and was wounded once in return. Stubbornly (but fairly), the lizards held. To the right, the white lions (now re-rolling misses and wounds because of their flaming attacks), killed every single skink and occupied the ruins. The eagle, although struggling on, now couldn't stand against the scar veteran who struck furiously and tore his enemy to pieces.

Lizardmen Turn 4

The High Elves were being hammered hard but they weren't out of it yet. Indeed, the truth was that, with the white lions and elven spears rushing on toward the lizards' left flank alongside their lord and standard bearer, the Slann was now in great danger. His infantry had to get stuck in fast. The skink/kroxigor cohort charged the swordmasters, already swinging their great swords and now laughing grimly at the prospect of battle. The scar veteran, to prevent me joining fighting muscle with ranks, charged the spearelves while the stegadon rumbled into the chariot to aid the saurus cavalry. On my left, the saurus horde took the charge against the silver helms, who stood their ground and bravely prepared for death or glory.

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The noble silver helms stand against overwhelming odds.

Magic. Another 10 power dice flooded the battlefield, but at least I had 6 dispel dice to play with. The skink priest couldn't repeat his earlier glory and failed to cast the comet. Lecalion then easily dispelled throne of vines but found that, again, flesh to stone was cast irresistibly, this time on the cohort crashing into the swordmasters. The slann tapped his cupped hands to avoid the miscast but, fortunately, Lecalion was covered from sight by the swordmasters and so stood unaffected. At some stage the Slann used a couple of dice to bring down Lecalion's throne of vines.

Combat now raged across the field. The saurus shouldered their way into the silver helms and, since the knights couldn't make a single armour save (four 1's!), cut them all down and reformed to face the retreating dragon princes. In the centre, the swordmasters did poorly against the toughness 5 skinks, killing only four, and were then pummelled heavily by the kroxigor, who made all of their six attacks hit and then, wounding on a 5+, scored two wounds. With their prince and BSB nearby, the swords stuck with it but, with dice like this, they wouldn't last long without their magical toughness. On the right, the chariot was smashed to pieces by the ancient stegadon, which effectively just sat on it. The scar veteran, however, struggled to hack his way through the massed spear points of the elven citizens and could only slay one of them. The spears couldn't get passed his armour, however, and he held his ground despite the odds, delaying my troops by another valuable turn.

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As the battle hangs in the balance, Seredain finally catches sight of his target.

High Elves Turn 5

There was no time to wait for the troops, then: Seredain and Caradath sang their battle cries and crashed into the vulnerable saurus cavalry on their way to the Lizardman general. The white lions followed the sound and, upon gathering outside of the ruin, advanced a little and wheeled left to face the flank of the temple guard. The green archers, to buy their lord more time, marched toward the saurus horde to offer them another expensive sacrifice while the princes, unable to achieve anything at this end of the field, swung round and retreated toward my backline. Lecalion marched back toward the blue archers who, with nothing to shoot, had shuffled around the repeater and were now moving up to receive him.

The magic phase, which I needed to be strong for the sake of the swordmasters at least, finally saw Lecalion draw on a huge amount of power- the Banner making all the difference to give me 11 dice against the lizards' 5 dispel dice. I began by trying Throne, but saw it dispelled on 2 dice. Flesh to Stone then went up on the swordmasters to give them T5. They badly needed it, but Mallas let it through as he had to take a shot at dispelling what was inevitably coming... In the end, however, the slann was powerless to stop my 6-dice Dwellers and half of his bodyguard crashed into the ground. Where his Str4 guard fell, though, the curs'ed slann managed to survive.

Shooting saw the death of one more temple guard from the far-off repeater bolt thrower. They were now looking very fragile indeed.

In combat, Seredain and Caradath just dominated their enemy. Their flashing swords rose and fell with incredible speed and, within moments, they were charging through the gory ruin of the saurus cavalry and smashing headlong into the few remaining temple guard. Even as they saw their leaders strike right into the heart of the enemy, the spears pushed hard against the heroic scar veteran but, despite making a huge number of hits, still couldn't get passed his armour and, infuriatingly, he again held his ground. The swordmasters, toughened if not revitalised, struggled on and brought down a few enemy before, once again, they were pounded by the kroxigor, who made five hits and three wounds! Only 4 swordmasters remained, but they were in it for their prince and, with their army standard still standing tall, they weren't going anywhere.

Lizardmen Turn 5

The only charge available to the saurus horde was against the green archers, and they took it. Everything else was engaged in holding action. The skink cohort was still stuck against T5 swordmasters, so the only unit able to save the temple guard from the white lions' flank charge was the stegadon. He didn't have a charge on, but found the time to shuffle through the gap between his master and the lions, offering the elves a flank but nonetheless providing a steadfast, T6 roadblock. A good move.

In the magic phase, the slann finally got only average dice but still managed to make a bunch of casts to defend his guardians! Throne of vines and shield of thorns went up on the temple guard, both with big rolls, but I dispelled regrowth with all my dice and, finally, burned the scroll to stop the inevitable flesh to stone. My heavily-armoured heroes weren't worried about thorns and shrugged them off with ease. Fortunately for me, Mallas then forgot to buzz his engine of the gods. It wouldn't have killed the heroes (fighting as a single unit for safety), but they and the white lions were certainly grateful nonetheless!

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As the battle rages on, the fate of both armies rests on the shoulders of their mighty heroes...

In combat, on the left flank, the saurus continued to gobble up victory points and easily killed the few archers blocking their path, but they were now stranded in the open and unable to halt my attack. Although I'd lost the silver helms and archers, their impromptu holding action on the left had done its work. In the centre, though, the swordmasters seemed cursed. They rolled terribly to wound against the skinks and, a few moments later, all four of them were killed by the kroxigor, who made a disgusting number of hits and wounds and absolutely smashed them to pulp. Ugh. The cohort reformed to face my right-hand side.

The biggest combat of all saw the elven heroes smash into the temple guard. To preserve them for as long as possible (and stay stubborn), the slann issued a challenge and I accepted with my BSB (I think the slann had a 3+ ward, for one and, for two, I wanted more attacks going into the guard to get rid of them as quickly as possible). In the ensuing combat, both my heroes excelled. Caradath bypassed the slann's ward completely and scored two wounds, while Seredain swung his mighty blade and cleaved four temple guard. The result was an easy victory for the elves but, naturally, the elite saurus held. I then reformed my unit and this posed a problem. In the end, we kept the BSB in contact with the slann and moved the prince over to keep the unit of 2 elves together (and maintain contact with the same number of models). I'm not sure what the protocol is for that- do you separate a unit into individual models so that one can continue to fight a challenge, or do you move one over to keep them together as a unit, even where that involves 'sliding'? Answers on a postcard please!

Lastly, on the right, the spearelves pushed hard against the scar veteran and, although unable to score any wounds, finally forced him into flight, charging after him full pelt and bringing him down. This was a big deal: a large chunk of points and the last barrier between them and the struggling temple guard was gone. Further, in their rush to kill the scar veteran they had stormed forward into easy charging distance. A killing strike was within my reach...

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The massed lizardman infantry finally forces its way through, but is nonetheless unable to prevent the high elven assault on their left flank.

High Elves Turn 6

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Charge!

Elven warhorns were met with an enormous shout as the spearelves and white lions rushed to the aid of their lord: the lions wildly assaulting the flank of the enormous stegadon and the spears crashing into the few remaining temple guard. As these charges surged hit home, Lecalion, working hard with what little the winds had given him (5 power dice, including the banner), nonetheless managed to cast Flesh to Stone (though Throne of Vines was dispelled) to bolster the small cohort of lions attacking the stegadon.

The skink priest perhaps should have challenged, though maybe he was hoping his mount would tread all over the small unit of elves and win the day. This was not to be, however. Their attack on the house had given the elite hunters a taste for violence and, having shrugged off their fear of the beast with the aid of the gem of Courage, they hacked into the stegadon with their mighty axes, killing it stone dead in one round of combat. Boom! This was more like it. Of course, Mallas had the last laugh though, as the little skink priest simply refused to give ground and rolled insane courage. Cheeky bastard!

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The white lions kill the mightiest of beasts but then find themselves stumped by a little skink who simply refuses to run away. Huh.

The white lions had been stopped in their tracks, but the slann was doomed. Even before I rolled for the spearelves, Seredain carved up the last three temple guard with ease. Caradath cut another wound out of the slann and the toad was left helpless. The spears had actually been cut out of combat but, with the heroes stacking up 5 points of combat res and the banner of discipline destroyed, the slann couldn't stand, tried to shuffle to safety but was easily ridden down. With his general dead, the skink priest doomed and no charges on next turn, Mallas called game and we finished it there. A bloody tense, nerve-wracking game had, at the last, gone my way. As his archers and remaining knights harassed the retreating saurus off the field, an exhausted elf prince slipped from his horse, sat on the slann's nearby plinth, cracked open a flagon of wine and started drinking.

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Victory to the High Elves!

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Last edited by Seredain on Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Not activating burning ailment on my engine for 2 turns really hurt me in the end. It would have devistated those white lions and given me a chance. :(

It is so late here and you took ages to post this! I will give a more in depth response in the next couple of days.

Well done anyway mate!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:28 am 
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Seredain wrote:
I then reformed my unit and this posed a problem. In the end, we kept the BSB in contact with the slann and moved the prince over to keep the unit of 2 elves together (and maintain contact with the same number of models). I'm not sure what the protocol is for that- do you separate a unit into individual models so that one can continue to fight a challenge, or do you move one over to keep them together as a unit, even where that involves 'sliding'? Answers on a postcard please!


Here's that postcard:

In a Challenge you should try "if possible" to move the two challengers into base contact. If this is not possible given other rules, then you simply assume they are in contact (p. 102). You can't split up a combined unit (of characters and characters or character and rank n' file) during close combat as that is only possible during a Movement phase and no movement is permitted for units in CC. Combat reform requires that you maintain base contact with enemy, though you can move into contact with a different enemy model (p. 55). There's potentially some shirty uses of this to evade more attacks, but that really only makes tactical sense. You were right to keep Caradath and Seredain together. While the slann needn't have moved from the back rank (unless the front rank's frontage shrank to smaller than his), what you ended up doing looked commonsensical and offered no illegal advantage to either player.

Other than that, that was a nail-biting game. Haven't seen you get caught out like that in a long time! Though at the end you did stay true to your combined arms and MSU approach, you showed flexibility in being prepared to abandon your philosophy of having a bus for your Prince in order to exploit a vulnerability in the Slann battleline. Its notable also that you could afford to sacrifice the Helms as they don't represent many points, or any given unit in your list for that matter, bar the characters.

I do have to question why you didn't try harder to avoid the comet. Was there simply no room for manouevre, or were you gambling that you'd have charged out of range by the time it would likely hit?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:03 am 
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ether_drake wrote:
I do have to question why you didn't try harder to avoid the comet. Was there simply no room for manouevre, or were you gambling that you'd have charged out of range by the time it would likely hit?


Because I placed the marker in a position to force all of his troops forward, but they were not close enough at that stage to charge. So I was basically trying to set up my own charges by placing the marker at his rear.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:38 am 
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Mallas wrote:
Because I placed the marker in a position to force all of his troops forward, but they were not close enough at that stage to charge. So I was basically trying to set up my own charges by placing the marker at his rear.


Good strategy. But I guess you needed more screening or redirecting units to tie up his charges.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:52 pm 
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ether_drake wrote:
Mallas wrote:
Because I placed the marker in a position to force all of his troops forward, but they were not close enough at that stage to charge. So I was basically trying to set up my own charges by placing the marker at his rear.


Good strategy. But I guess you needed more screening or redirecting units to tie up his charges.


I'm still kicking myself about not activating Burning Ailment. Against low toughness models, it rips them to shreds. 2D6 STR4 hits per unit within 2D6 range and no armor saves allowed. Those White lions were only a couple of inches away in the ruined building and then they had to pop outside. 2 full turns would have destoyed that unit and saved that flank. Grrrrrrrrrr...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Well done on pulling through a win! You caught a couple of breaks and him failing to use burning alignment certainly helped you out.

I was curious as to why he had the kind of army he had as opposed to a more typical lizard list consisting of skirmishers and massed poison attacks. With that being said, he played it well and looked to have the advantage at more than one point. By committing his Horde to flank protection though and it being the only devastating combat block he had, his middle was exposed and you managed to capitalize on this - though his cavalry and stegadon nearly stopped you! I'm curious as to how it would've played out had he gotten his TG in a favourable position on the right flank - far away from your cavalry with lots of easy matchups.

Anyways, well played again! Congrats on the win and thanks for the report :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Mallas wrote:
I'm still kicking myself about not activating Burning Ailment. Against low toughness models, it rips them to shreds. 2D6 STR4 hits per unit within 2D6 range and no armor saves allowed. Those White lions were only a couple of inches away in the ruined building and then they had to pop outside. 2 full turns would have destoyed that unit and saved that flank. Grrrrrrrrrr...


I actually know one lizardmen player who uses this as a foundation for his strategy. Basically, he has two blocks of 30 or so saurus to tie up units, places his engine of the gods between them, and detonates it turn after turn. Works great against any high armor opponent (which is actually the same stuff that can't be brought down by his 4 units of skink skirmishers and 2 charmelion units with their massed poison darts, so compliments his army well). Last tournament, he got two massacres against daemons and bretonnians, and one loss (to my HEs). Most impressive was how he handled bretonnians. Tabled by turn 4, helped in no small part by the engine. Something to consider.

Otherwise, very entertaining game! I like your sacrifice of the archers and helms to tie up the combat block, Seredain. Good way to avoid a big unit is to give it something to kill and draw it away. Also, nice control to change strategy last minute with the saurus.

At Mallas, yeah the non-activation of the engine in the later turns really cost you the game. Detonating it probably would have killed his characters (can affect units in combat, and 2D6 S4 hits averages about 5 wounds actually, exactly enough to kill both characters, and Seredain doesn't have wards on his characters), and also would have killed the lions over a few turns as you said. Killing the general, BSB, lions, and saving your slann, TG, and stegadon would have given you a sizable win. Bet you won't forget it next time? :D

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jwg20 wrote:
Mallas wrote:
I'm still kicking myself about not activating Burning Ailment. Against low toughness models, it rips them to shreds. 2D6 STR4 hits per unit within 2D6 range and no armor saves allowed. Those White lions were only a couple of inches away in the ruined building and then they had to pop outside. 2 full turns would have destoyed that unit and saved that flank. Grrrrrrrrrr...


I actually know one lizardmen player who uses this as a foundation for his strategy. Basically, he has two blocks of 30 or so saurus to tie up units, places his engine of the gods between them, and detonates it turn after turn. Works great against any high armor opponent (which is actually the same stuff that can't be brought down by his 4 units of skink skirmishers and 2 charmelion units with their massed poison darts, so compliments his army well). Last tournament, he got two massacres against daemons and bretonnians, and one loss (to my HEs). Most impressive was how he handled bretonnians. Tabled by turn 4, helped in no small part by the engine. Something to consider.

Otherwise, very entertaining game! I like your sacrifice of the archers and helms to tie up the combat block, Seredain. Good way to avoid a big unit is to give it something to kill and draw it away. Also, nice control to change strategy last minute with the saurus.

At Mallas, yeah the non-activation of the engine in the later turns really cost you the game. Detonating it probably would have killed his characters (can affect units in combat, and 2D6 S4 hits averages about 5 wounds actually, exactly enough to kill both characters, and Seredain doesn't have wards on his characters), and also would have killed the lions over a few turns as you said. Killing the general, BSB, lions, and saving your slann, TG, and stegadon would have given you a sizable win. Bet you won't forget it next time? :D


I never took the engine to be used like you described (obvious since I FORGOT to use it haha) but you've deffinately given me ideas.

I actually built the army around a "Life" Slann. The +2 or 4 Toughness Cohort unit is not to be underestimated. They are excellent at staying steadfast against almost any unit. They are also immune to Stomp/Thunder stomp too!

I feel I was forced to change to horde formation with my Saurus block, because I knew that if I received a flank charge from the cavalry, I was deffinately doomed. Even a full front assault was going to hurt the horde, which is why I threw 7 dice at Flesh to Stone and I dont think I was lucky getting 2 6's there.

My biggest advantage was having read this thread and knowing how Mr S deploys and how he likes to match up his units. I knew that it was very easy for him to circle around with his Cavalry if I came out to play, so I used that ruin on my left as a focal point for drawing his units in. It actually worked out perfectly, but due to my forgetfulness, I forgot to use the Engine, effectively throwing away the match.

I am a very casual player, so I must admit, I do forget to do a lot of things during my matches. Be is dispelling RiP or activating things. It is just one big learning curve for me and I can't wait to have another shot against Mr S.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Yeah, very interesting game, especially the re-deployments.

Mallas, isn't 12 a little small for the TG unit protecting your Slann?

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Very interesting report, it's so rare to see High Elves beat Lizardmen... but I guess if the Lizardmen player doesn't use some of his most powerful tricks, it becomes a lot easier. From the Terradons not bothering to drop their rocks before landing in front of the enemy, to the ignored Burning Alignments... I think even I could pull a win off in such circumstances!

Quote:
Here's that postcard:

In a Challenge you should try "if possible" to move the two challengers into base contact. If this is not possible given other rules, then you simply assume they are in contact (p. 102). You can't split up a combined unit (of characters and characters or character and rank n' file) during close combat as that is only possible during a Movement phase and no movement is permitted for units in CC. Combat reform requires that you maintain base contact with enemy, though you can move into contact with a different enemy model (p. 55). There's potentially some shirty uses of this to evade more attacks, but that really only makes tactical sense. You were right to keep Caradath and Seredain together. While the slann needn't have moved from the back rank (unless the front rank's frontage shrank to smaller than his), what you ended up doing looked commonsensical and offered no illegal advantage to either player.


I have to disagree, unfortunately. The main thing is that you shouldn't take any models out of combat. In fact, the charge itself was done incorrectly in the first place, as the two characters didn't bother to maximise. This is the type of thing that so many people forget to do on overruns! From there, if the Slann challenged, if he was to move forwards, then he should have just done that, displacing the two models in front. I probably wouldn't have bothered, as he is meant to stay in the second rank. After that point, there's no need to move the two cavalrymen whatsoever, and so, in their more central position, this would have offered no room for the Spearmen to make it into the combat. The two characters being shifted to the side to make the perfect amount of space for the charge does not seem in keeping to the rules to me, and offered a HUGE, possibly gamewinning advantage to the High Elves.

While you can move into contact with a different model during a combat reform, this is only half the story of what P55 actually says, you can't take a model out of combat, and if you shift a pair of models down the line, that is what happens, even if they are only rank and file troopers, unfortunately...

I'd have liked to see if the two characters could have broken the Slann on their own- I think they'd have had a good chance to do so, instantly destroying him, personally!

Hate to be so negative again, I just know how hard Lizardmen are to beat... still, a good tactical win and none of this Dwellers rubbish killing characters wholesale :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:11 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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Battle Review - High Elves vs Lizardmen

Haha, right: let's begin with the rules quibblage!

jwg20 wrote:
Mallas wrote:
I'm still kicking myself about not activating Burning Ailment. Against low toughness models, it rips them to shreds. 2D6 STR4 hits per unit within 2D6 range and no armor saves allowed. Those White lions were only a couple of inches away in the ruined building and then they had to pop outside. 2 full turns would have destoyed that unit and saved that flank. Grrrrrrrrrr...

At Mallas, yeah the non-activation of the engine in the later turns really cost you the game. Detonating it probably would have killed his characters (can affect units in combat, and 2D6 S4 hits averages about 5 wounds actually, exactly enough to kill both characters, and Seredain doesn't have wards on his characters), and also would have killed the lions over a few turns as you said.

Sorry to burst your bubble here, boys - burning alignment only does d6 hits. For the characters running in a pair, that isn't a big deal (if it was, the archmage would've been a darn slight closer to give some wounds back, believe me!). Also remember that it only has a 2d6 range and, on the first turn when Mal should've burned (dude... ;)), the characters were just over 5" away (so 6 rounding up)- not a sure-fire hit. In any event, if I recall correctly (Mal- you'll remember this), I think the ancient steg actually chose to put the shield up on turn 4, rather than forget to do anything (I remember the bolt thrower coming up against the ward save that turn when shooting the TG's). In the circumstances it was the wrong choice but it was, at least, a choice.

Certainly, though, the white lions wouldn't have killed the steg in combat had they been buzzed once or twice. However, if Mal had buzzed them that first turn (4), I would've Flesh to Stoned them the following turn (5) instead of the swordmasters (who, let's be honest, didn't get any benefit anyway what with those krox rolling like gods), so the 2nd round of burning wouldn't have mattered very much. Forgetting was annoying for Mal, but remembering to cast burning alignment would've saved the Stegadon, not the Slann. In the end, the temple guard simply couldn't wound my characters.

Stormie wrote:
The two characters being shifted to the side to make the perfect amount of space for the charge does not seem in keeping to the rules to me, and offered a HUGE, possibly gamewinning advantage to the High Elves.

I'd have liked to see if the two characters could have broken the Slann on their own- I think they'd have had a good chance to do so, instantly destroying him, personally!

Seredain gets 3 TG kills, Caradath gets 1 wound on Slann, plus standard: that's a victory of +5. Slann's testing on Ld 4. I'm taking it. :)

Edit: also remember the alternative: with a charge and two rounds of combat waiting for me, I could've simply put the spears into the skink cohort and left the heroes to it. The spears would have certainly beaten them by game's end (with possible rundown). That's a combat I'm winning, since spears trash skinks and the krox, who were bound to miss eventually, would not be able to make up the difference over 2 rounds. In the end, the heroes were perfectly able to handle the last few temple guard and, really, the spears could have seen good service hitting the steg in the rear (as they might have done if the white lions had been a few models short from burning), or moving into the skinks and winning a combat by themselves. Since I had the opportunity and luck was turning my way, I took the safest option, but it wasn't necessarily the best.

jwg20 wrote:
Otherwise, very entertaining game! I like your sacrifice of the archers and helms to tie up the combat block, Seredain. Good way to avoid a big unit is to give it something to kill and draw it away. Also, nice control to change strategy last minute with the saurus.

Thanks. The act of a desperate man but it really showed the advantage in having your heroes mounted: wonderful speed. The swords, too, showed that, although a small unit, they will typically kill eneough enemy to keep them in contention and so serve some useful purpose as a defensive unit, especially with the prince and BSB bearby.

Stormie wrote:
Very interesting report, it's so rare to see High Elves beat Lizardmen... but I guess if the Lizardmen player doesn't use some of his most powerful tricks, it becomes a lot easier. From the Terradons not bothering to drop their rocks before landing in front of the enemy...

You've missed some tricks here Stormie. First, remember that, at no point in the game were the terradons able to fly over one of my units to drop rocks and land on the other side. If you go back and re-read the relevent bits (and look at the pictures), you'll see that I constantly kept that 20" landing zone filled with units along any path that allowed the terradons a flight move over any elves (especially the swordmasters). In the end, with my army closing in, Mallas thought he'd take a gamble drawing me out with the terradons and, given the circumstances, there are worse things he could've done with them.

Stormie wrote:
I have to disagree, unfortunately. The main thing is that you shouldn't take any models out of combat. In fact, the charge itself was done incorrectly in the first place, as the two characters didn't bother to maximise. This is the type of thing that so many people forget to do on overruns!

This is true! On that basis though (since I was planning ahead with the spears), I simply could have maximised my characters on the left hand side to give my spears room to get in (with the stegadon dead, at least!). When the Slann challenges, then, he simply moves into contact with my BSB and the prince stays put. I'll remember this little scenario in future, though, for sure. Still at least the insane courage skink priest didn't totally ruin my day!

Stormie wrote:
still, a good tactical win and none of this Dwellers rubbish killing characters wholesale :mrgreen:

Thank you, though not for want of trying! My magic this game was upsettingly poor compared with Mal's. Even with the Banner I only got Throne off once, Flesh off three or four times and Dwellers off once (failing to kill the Slann). That's five or six successful casts in the whole game. When the comet hit me and the irresistible T8 saurus nearly ended my game, I was a little demoralised, for sure!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:08 am 
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Stormie wrote:
While you can move into contact with a different model during a combat reform, this is only half the story of what P55 actually says, you can't take a model out of combat, and if you shift a pair of models down the line, that is what happens, even if they are only rank and file troopers, unfortunately...


I see what you mean. The wording is a little convoluted.

P. 55 - Reforming from Victory:
Quote:
There is one special restriction on a combat reform, however - it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made. The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish.


Thus, I take it that you're reading it as that you are anchored to the enemy model you're in initial base contact with, but pivoting on that anchor can bring you into contact with more models or different ones. More but never less.

I read the first sentence, esp. "...out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before..." as meaning that reform can't be used to disengage with the enemy unit as such. As long as the model ends up in contact with an enemy model that it was previously in combat with, the model at no time leaves the combat. If shifting was legal it wouldn't take them out of combat with the unit, just away from particular models in that unit. But the qualifier "it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy" means that engaged models on both sides are 'sticky' in combat and can't be disengaged via reform.

You are right about Seredain not maximising the initial charge of the heroes and they shouldn't have shifted down the line with the reform. The reform from victory should be about changing one's facing or bringing models in from other ranks to maximise contact.

Thanks.

Since I'll probably be facing Slann sometime soon, does anyone want to be be definitive about whether the challenged Slann should step forward or not? By rights the challenger wouldn't normally be able to strike into the second rank, so stepping forward makes sense. Plus, it can also matter in that the number of Temple Guard available to make attacks (or even the number of their opponents) may be reduced by the 40mm wide Slann since the challenge is insulated from the rest of the melee. Thus the number of non-challenge casualties can be affected by the presence of the Slann in the front rank.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:10 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble here, boys - burning alignment only does d6 hits.


No, I am sure it is 2D6 hits and I will check that when I get home today.

Yes, yes I am a noob and made some bad decisions. But playing a vet like you has taught me a lot.

BTW about the drop rocks issue. I never had a chance to drop rocks because Mr S always positioned his units in the movement phase to prevent it.

Mr S is a master at the movement phase.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:15 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Yeah, very interesting game, especially the re-deployments.

Mallas, isn't 12 a little small for the TG unit protecting your Slann?


Oh and I run so little TG because I am trying to run it as more of a command bunker/support unit. That is why it is deployed behind the bigger blocks.

It is still a learning curve for me and I like to play with my own style instead of taking cookie cutter builds. Most LM players don;t take cavalry, but I just love them to bits and it is my type of style.


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