Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:05 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 ... 57  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:11 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Univeristy of Glasgow
I'll bet my kidney the vamp will go in the small unit ghouls positioned behind the GG. Likely the BSB in the GG and the little vamp in the bunker also. Since there is very little that can fight 30 regenerating GG with ws10 from the lord and 3+ to hit (except maybe a big block of white lions with flaming) it comes down to how fast can you kill a ghoul unit while feeding the GG junk.

_________________
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Yeah, sorry John Rainbow, but you've clearly not been playing against Netlist TM Vampire Counts armies. I envy you ;)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:38 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Shinzou wrote:
About your deployment with the chariot. Why do you deploy the chariot with the front first? If you put him with his side to the enemy line first you can then use his free reform and gain some inches right before your first movement phase. Or is it that you dont need those small boost in inches?

As the others have expressed- this isn't really my style!

Furion wrote:
Seredain,

How does your roster work against VC? The most typical VC roster in Poland / Germany look like that:
Quote:
1 Vampire Lord @ 420.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 3; Necromancy
The Master: Summon Ghouls [15.0]
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte [30.0]
The Severed: Ghoulkin [25.0]
Fencer's Blades [35.0]
Helm of Commandment [30.0]
Charmed Shield [5.0]
Dispel Scroll [25.0]

1 Vampire @ 135.0 Pts
Magic Level 1; Lore of Shadow
The Arkayne: Forbidden Lore [35.0]

1 Wight King @ 235.0 Pts
Battle Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Heavy armour; Shield
The Drakenhof Banner [125.0]

18+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 160.0 Pts
29+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 248.0 Pts
29+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 248.0 Pts

28 Grave Guard @ 439.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; FCG
Banner of the Barrows [45.0]

4+1 Wraiths @ 275.0 Pts
1 Varghoulf @ 175.0 pts


Manangeable / Easy / Hard ?

cheers
Furion

I think I'd go with 'manageable'.

Facing the Vampire Bunker

Ostensibly, this Vamp list has lots of vulnerabilities to mine. Basically, I can overwhelm a ghoul horde faster than they can defend: with shooting or magic (Dwellers goes off whenever it can along with whatever bolts and arrows I can spare from the varghulf), followed up by my characters and attacking units (eagle hits the vamp lord bunker on the turn I charge to prevent WS 10 ghouls!), then I'll dedicate them to killing the vamp lord himself (who I presume is deployed behind the hordes with the 19 ghouls). He's vulnerable to fast, manoeuvreable attack forces and, I don't reckon, has enough harassment to hold me back. Vampire lists often rely on ethereals to run this kind of harassment but, since I carry the Amulet of Light on the BSB and a magic weapon on the prince, their ability to ruin my aggressive play is greatly reduced.

Speaking more generically, the vamp list above doesn't have much in the way of deployment drops- it's very easy for me to deploy well against and target whichever flank (presumably both held by a ghoul horde) I feel is the most vulnerable. Further, scenarios which randomise deployment punish lists like this very hard. There are so few drops that, if any one of them ends up out of position, it's correspondingly worse for the controlling player. The undead not being able to march when a vamp isn't near compounds this problem.

Some qualifications to the above. If the vampire army is allowed to camp against board edges, it becomes very difficult for me to build a killer-surround and break the hordes. If I do get stuck into grinding combats, the vamps' magic (and Helm) is given longer to turn the game against me by force of attrition (assuming they get good magic phases). I have a better magic phase now, and another eagle for defence against the Helm, but I don't like grinding combats where I can help them- especially if there's a GG horde looking to get in the mix. On the GG horde, I hate it. It's scary. And it has killing blow, so it's best my prince avoid it until I can hit it with some serious force. On the plus side, a horde of 30 is pretty fragile. If I do hit it in force, I can make the number of attacks it has back pretty negligible and wipe it out on combat res.

So, 'manageable', then. I'd say 'easy', but the need for overwhelming force in each combat makes the consequences of failing a couple of charges pretty terrible- especially for a list like mine. Oh, and this is one army I'd much rather fight with the Annullian Crystal as opposed to the scroll. Everything considered, though, if I can catch an army like this out in the open, I rate my chances. I need more practice against these vamp lists, but I look forward to them now much more than I did in 7th!

EDIT: Anathir sums things up nicely- I'd also bet a kidney on the vamp going in the little ghouls!
EDIT: John Rainbow- you're right about hordes of 30 being pretty fragile. My list can gobble those up in pretty short order!


Battle report is pending.

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am
Posts: 394
God, cannot wait for this report! Absolutely loving this thread. Hopefully I'll have some time to try out my own cavalry list against someone, but with uni owning me left, right and centre, I don't have much time. I suppose it serves me right for doing a degree in physics... (oops :)). Hopefully i can get a game in and put a report or two up so i can get my own thread on a roll, but until then, these reports give me good reason to procrastinate from my work :)

Btw, said it once, I'll say it again, Seredain, you are a tactical genius :)

_________________
"They thought we had all but died out, but as we take to the skies our foes will tremble with fear, for they will know the True Dragon Princes have returned."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
Cython wrote:
I suppose it serves me right for doing a degree in physics... (oops :)).


Woo Physics!!!!! Though I went to the dark side post-grad and am now pursuing a degree in engineering.

But yeah, looking forward to the report Seredain. :D

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:56 am
Posts: 394
jwg20 wrote:
Though I went to the dark side post-grad and am now pursuing a degree in engineering.

TRAITOR!!! [-X
:D

_________________
"They thought we had all but died out, but as we take to the skies our foes will tremble with fear, for they will know the True Dragon Princes have returned."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:16 pm
Posts: 211
@Seredain

You may have answered this before, but how do you scale down your list for a 2000 pt game? I don't commonly use White Lions, but I have used my own variation of the Cavalry list at 2500 pts. Having recently played a game at 2000 with the following list, it left me wondering what you leave in or take out. For myself it led me to removing the Prince, putting the BSB on foot, removing the Bolt Thrower, keeping the Archmage, having Caradryan as the general placed in Seaguard and keeping the unit of 10 Silver Helms for an Elf Tank.

2000 Pts - High Elves Roster

Archmage (1#, 270 pts)
1 Magus Furyon, Scholar of the White Tower, 270 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)performed marvelously; Furyon was able to out cast Wurzagh all game and even healed himself of a devastating 'ead butt attack; throne enhanced my magic defense and 2 successful dwellers brought my opponents 40-50 strong unit of Savage Boyz down to about 50%; Furyon had spells 0,2,3,5,6
1 Silver Wand
1 Lifebloom
1 0. Earth Blood
1 1. Awakening of the Wood
1 2. Flesh to Stone
1 3. Throne of Vines
1 4. Shield of Thorns
1 5. Regrowth
1 6. The Dweller's Below

Noble (1#, 168 pts)
1 Absalom, Lord of Starfall, 168 pts (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Armour of Caledor
1 Dawnstone

Caradryan (1#, 175 pts)Kastor was threatening and helped place a couple wounds on an Arachnarok, but my deployment and his subsequent maneuver left him without much to do until the last two turns; a good stand in general though and a great buff for my core of Seaguard; and even though he was only strength 5, I felt his ability to cause D3 wounds offset the strength factor when combating monstrous creatures
1 Kastor, Captain of the Grim Company, 175 pts (General; Heavy Armour; Causes Fear; Magic Resistance (3))
1 The Phoenix Blade

Phoenix Guard (14#, 272 pts)always love these guys; finished off the Arachnarok and managed to beat the remaining Savage Boyz in combat
14 The Grim Company, 272 pts (Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Heavy Armour; Causes Fear)
1 Banner of Sorcerydefinitely helped me carve an edge in otherwise average magic phases (I never had an overwhelming wind of magic)

Lothern Sea Guard (29#, 392 pts)love, love, love the versatility of this unit; took out a mangler, several Savage Boyz and then remained steadfast against the Arachnarok
29 Emerald Marines, 392 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)

Archers (10#, 110 pts)killed a mangler and some Savage Boyz
10 Starfury Sailors, 110 pts (Hand Weapon; Longbow)

Sword Masters of Hoeth (14#, 254 pts)didn't get into combat, unfortunately; mainly due to my opponent's poor maneuvering with his horde
13 Blade of the Magus, 254 pts (Always Strikes Last; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
1 Bladelord (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
1 Potion of Strengththis is meant to offset the lack of a super high strength melee

Silver Helms (10#, 254 pts)
10 The Noble Few, 254 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield)even without the noble Prince Oberon, they were still worth their weight in gold; combined charge on the right flank with my two eagles wiped out a unit of 16-20 Black Orcs
10 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)Don't leave home without them; destroyed doomdiver on turn two, general harrassment and then slew the Black Orcs
1 Zephyr, Lustrian Falcon, 50 pts (Swift Stride; Flyer; Stomp)

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)
1 Hermes, Lustrian Falcon, 50 pts (Swift Stride; Flyer; Stomp)

This army list worked well enough for me this time. Because of my enemies poor deployment and maneuver I was allowed to take full advantage of several turns of shooting and magic, before finally cutting off his rear with a charge from my Silver Helms and holding my center against his Arachnarok and Wurzagh's Savage Boyz. The Silver Helms, even without a character, are still quite deadly and resilient.

_________________
True to the End.
Prince Oberon, Hand of Tor Yvresse, Lord Admiral, Lord of Tor Lir


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Oberon wrote:
1 Absalom, Lord of Starfall, 168 pts Always Strikes Last

Just making sure you know this but you don't strike last. You still have ASF even with GWs. Check the FAQ.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:16 pm
Posts: 211
@John Rainbow

Yeah, thanks man; it was a straight text copy from Army Builder; the builder always takes note of a weapons individual characteristic. At the bottom of the normal printout it lists all the HE special rules. Good looking out for a brother though.

_________________
True to the End.
Prince Oberon, Hand of Tor Yvresse, Lord Admiral, Lord of Tor Lir


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
@Oberon
I thought as much but just wanted to be sure :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:29 am 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Battle Report continued - 2500 High Elves vs 2685 Lizardmen

We've dealt with the army lists, spells and deployment on the previous page, linked here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584&p=726401#p726401

Lizardmen Turn 1

Pretty simple, really. The blocks all came forward in a fairly even line, heralded by the kroxigor and salamander, the former looking to cover the temple guard and- at the same time- open access to the field for them. On my right, the stegadon held back, to cover the gap my knights would have to march through if they wanted to win the flank. The nearby skinks, along with their priest, closed in a little and moved to the outside of that flank. On the far side of the board, their fellow skirmishers ran through the trees toward my archers on the hill (the blues).

The magic phase was a lovely dud: my opponent rolled only 3 power dice, giving me 2 dispel dice. He tried, and failed, to cast chain lightning on my dragon princes.

Image
Lizardmen Turn 1- over pretty quickly.

High Elves Turn 1

Charges. First off, the skinks on my right flank were within 18” or 19” of my chariot. And they had an expensive priest with them. I declared the charge and...failed it. Ah well, this was a one-way bet. Even if the chariot moved 6” it wouldn't block off my knights. It moved 5” and settled by the tower. My cavalry, utterly unconcerned by the skinks, marched up at speed, the silver helms covering the dragon princes from a charge by the stegadon. As for the helms themselves, they were asking for it. He could either charge me with the dino or I'd charge him (or the saurus spears) next turn. The elf heroes readied their swords and their companions prepared to take some hits.

To prevent the saurus spears from responding usefully by turning to face my knights, my newly acquired eagle (still full of hope in believing that he wouldn't be horribly killed), flew forward and blocked off the spears and the engine steg. At the same time, I angled him in such a way so as to force the stegadon to overrun uselessly into the tower if he charged next turn. The 2nd eagle sat back in reserve (no point in throwing him away at this stage) and my infantry dressed ranks slightly; the white lions covering Lecalion as he marched to within Dwellers range of the temple guard.

Image
Seredain's knights face down the stegadon without fear, calling out the elven equivalent of “Bring it, Bitch”.

Image
The new eagle lets the side down with his baselessness, but provides a useful service nonetheless.

This magic phase was a much more potent than the last: the winds blew strong, giving me 8 power dice to my opponent's 5 dispel dice. The Banner of Sorcery glowed with power and gave me another 3 dice (hail Mary!), and archmage Lecalion had a field day. First, Throne of Vines went up on three dice (a good roll prevented my opponent from trying to dispel with dice). Then Shield of Thorns went up on the silver helms (on two dice) and my opponent let it through. If the lizards wanted to get rid of these spells, they'd have to screw their magic phase next turn. Nice. I had 6 dice left and (unsurprisingly) chucked them all at Dwellers against the Slann. My roll didn't contain any 6's but it was pretty massive: so much so that rather than risk failing the dispel roll and losing his Slann, my opponent popped a scroll.

Image
Kazam!

Shooting was much less interesting. My repeater and archers all drew their sights on the advancing salamander, wounded the thing 4 times and watch furiously as it made two saves. So much for my new 'archer force concentration'.

Lizardmen Turn 2

The stegadon wasn't going to let me have the run of the board, so thundered into the silver helms. Nearby, the ancient steg charged the far less threatening eagle, who was about to get a serious reality check about the orders given to them by elf princes. The saurus spears, unable to rotate on the spot due to clipping the eagle, simply shifted backwards 2” (much better to have charged the eagle and taken the free reform after combat).

In other moves, the salamander came within range of the spearelves while the nearby kroxigor did a bit of complicated double-wheeling to simultaneously advance and open up a gap for the temple guard to march toward. The skinks on my left marched at the archers while the other unit came round the outside of the dragon princes to get out of their charge arc. The feathered skink priest left this unit and hid behind a nearby hedge.

Image

Image

The magic phase could've been better for my opponent: he'd just cast Throne of Vines and then realised that he was just out of range to buff the stegadon fighting my knights with Flesh to Stone. Arf. On the plus side (for him), he still had the Heavens hexes. I dispelled Curse of the Midnight Wind (a bitch of a spell), but Iceshard Blizzard went off on the helms, who'd now be hitting the steg only on a 4+.

Shooting. The skinks all shot at what was closest to them, but to little effect. My blue archers lost a single elf while the dragon princes' armour was proof against the little lizards' darts altogether. The salamander took a deep breath and roasted 4 spearelves, but even this wasn't too bad. He strayed pretty close to get this shot and I'd have a charge on against him next turn.

Combat saw the stegadon stamp, bite and headbutt its way into my silver helms, smashing 4 to the ground. By the end of the phase it was a pretty ragged dino, though, although Ulthuan's finest weren't quite able to bring it down (the damn iceshard blizzard encouraging me to roll terribly to hit). The beast went down to 2 wounds and won combat by 1 but, unsurprisingly, couldn't break my cavalry. They reformed to stand 3x2, opening up a flank charge for the chariot and dragon princes. I wasn't going to take any chances! Elsewhere, the eagle was quickly made to look like one of those pigeons that's just been run over by a car.

Image
The stegadon hits home like a freight train, but a combination of elven discipline and martial prowess sees the silver helms stick it out.

High Elves Turn 2

Having held the stegadon in place with my helms, it was time to finish it off. The dragon princes slammed into its flank on one side and, on the other, the chariot was just able to squeeze through the gap between the helms and the tower to hit the other. Elsewhere, the spears charged the lone salamander, looking to kill it and reform to face the kroxigor. To act as the flank hammer to this anvil (or to receive the charge themselves if necessary), the white lions moved towards the kroxigor. My other infantry units held their ground: the saurus infantry was still too far away to press them into activity.

Image
Seredain and his knights prepare to enact 'Operation Minor Extinction Event'

The magic phase gave me 6 power dice after Sorcery. I just threw them at another Dwellers cast, which went through and... failed to kill the Slann. A rank of temple guard were dragged to their deaths, though. Shooting saw my archers kill half the nearby skinks, who panicked and fled. My other archers, and the repeater, failed to do much to the kroxigor, though, only inflicting a single wound on one of them after my opponent rolled a bunch of 6's for armour saves.

Image
The Slann and his 'hat of vines' survives Lecalion's onslaught, but several members of his guard are not so lucky.

Image
A thudding volley of arrows sees off the skinks.

In combat, Seredain cleaved the stegadon apart even before I rolled for my other troops. The chariot took the overrun past the front arc of the saurus spears while the cavalry all reformed to face their flank. The saurus had no charge on against me next turn, so things were looking good on this flank. On the far side of the table, the elven spears tore through the salamander and, thrilled by their success, decided to overrun past the kroxigor (just). In the end, I'd rather hold the krox with lions than spears. I took the risk, took the move and just made it: I now had a fully-ranked infantry unit around the Lizardman flank on only Turn 2. Excellent.

Image
The spearelves break through the salamander and gain the left flank.

Lizardmen Turn 3

The kroxigor couldn't stand around getting shot, so they declared a charge on the white lions, who were eagerly waiting. It was a pretty long charge, though, and the krox failed it, shuffling forward 3”. Nearby, the skinks kept fleeing away from my hilltop archers and towards the wood.

My opponent's real concern was with my knights and cavalry characters, however. The way he saw it, the moment I got them round the back of his army, I'd be able to sandwich his lizards between them and my infantry, and all would be lost. Rather than let that happen, he dedicated as much force as he could to destroying my flank attack. The saurus spears reformed to face the flank of the chariot, then, and the ancient stegadon marched as close to my knights as it could, in preparation for Burning Alignment and chain lightning. My opponent made his intentions clear at this point (if they weren't already): there was nothing I could do other than pray he didn't get many power dice during the magic phase. The temple guard took a free reform and moved toward my knights too, to bring the Slann within buff range of the big dino and closer to being able to put wounds back on it. The hand weapon saurus kept on trucking, however, moving up to support the kroxigor and close more with my swordmasters (who were still stood well back).

Image
Charges sub-phase: the kroxigor can't find their target.

Image
The Lizardmen move to shut down the elven cavalry with magic, missiles and muscle.

Image

The magic phase was a disastrous 12 dice! Arrrgh! I made a slight wimpering noise, my opponent grinned broadly, and then he started chucking dice. Before I remembered to dispel Throne of Vines on one dice (my opponent would probably expend more casting it again), chain lightning and the engine's burning alignment ravaged my right wing. Only 2 silver helms were fried (the characters' armour saved them from some randomised hits of the lighting while the engine totally failed), but the dragon princes were ravaged (4 of 5 died) and the chariot was brought down to 1 wound. The Slann then threw Throne of Vines back up before casting Flesh to Stone on the ancient stegadon. I wasn't about to let that happen, however, and scrolled it. I then had enough dice to block Curse of the Midnight Wind from hexing the silver helms. I was damaged, then, but my characters were alive and the engine was vulnerable- its flank exposed to Seredain's unit. If I could kill it quickly, everything would be fine...

Shooting followed magic nicely for my opponent: the skinks pinged the last wound off the chariot and took it off the board. My attacking wing was now looking pretty ragged!

Image
The skink priest's chain lightning brings the pain.

High Elves Turn 3

My silver helms let out a thunderous battle cry and charged the ancient stegadon in the flank. The white lions charged the kroxigor, axes swinging. The spearelves wheeled round and marched behind the kroxigor to stare the scar-vet saurus warriors in the flank. As for the one remaining dragon prince, there was no point throwing him into the steg too since, if I didn't kill it, he'd only offer a flank charge to the saurus spears. He marched behind the tower, took cover there and awaited the chance to help my infantry fight the scar-vet saurus. The eagle also though he'd use the tower as a prop. My opponent and I were both aware that beasts can't occupy buildings, but saw no reason why the eagle couldn't use the tower as a perch. He flew up there and faced down toward the skinks and the lone skink priest.

The magic phase was a total fail. I rolled snake eyes! The Banner of Sorcery gave me an extra dice, which didn't change much, so I contented myself with dispelling the Slann's throne of vines. In the shooting phase, my poor form continued and I literally only killed 1 saurus warrior. Ugh.

Combat started much better: the white lions absolutely cleaved the kroxigor into chunks. Hitting on 3's, re-rolling misses, wounding on 2's no armour save. Not surprsingly, devastation ensued and there was only 1 kroxigor was left standing of the original 4. He killed a couple of lions but couldn't stand and fled through the spearelves. My lions tried to restrain themselves (I wanted to reform to face the saurus warriors so as to cover my archmage and archers), but they failed their test and pursued- ending up an inch short of their target (damn).

Image
The white lions crash through the kroxigor but can't quite finish the job.
A mistake here. Fleeing units can move through enemy units (and take dangerous terrain tests), but pursuing units cannot follow them: the white lions should've stopped 1" before hitting the spearelves (this would've been better for me, too!).

All eyes now turned to the showdown between my knights and the ancient stegadon. Seredain popped the Talisman of Loec and cleaved the dinosaur, inflicting 4 wounds. Caradath swung his greatsword and finished the job and, within a matter of moments, the beast had come crashing down. My silver helms finished the priest with ease and I reformed the unit to bring both saurus spears and temple guard (still far away but better safe than sorry) into their front arc. This was marvellous. If the saurus spears wanted to charge my knights, they could go ahead. With me throwing down 7 Str6/7 attacks, hitting on 3's with ASF, wounding on 2's, allowing no armour saves and with Shield of Thorns in support, they weren't going to win that one.

Image
The saurus can only watch as Seredain and his standard bearer destroy the ancient stegadon

Image
End of High Elf Turn 3.

Lizardmen Turn 4

The saurus spears, having witnessed what the elf heroes had just done to their mightiest beast, decided that charging in for a taste of the same was a bad idea. Instead, they contented themselves with moving up to the tower to prevent my cavalry from moving to sandwich the temple guard in conjunction with the spearelves and white lions. With their rear secured for the next turn, the temple guard turned to face the elf infantry so the Slann could throw terrible magicks their way and, of course, to stave off the rear-charge I had on.

The scar-vet saurus had a difficult choice to make. If they hung around forever, I'd pick away at them with my missiles and I'd just have more time to surround them. Another march move, however, would only leave them exposed to a combo-charge from my spears and swordmasters. The archers were vulnerable, however, and expensive, too. I hadn't planned for the white lions failing to reform and, now, my archmage was staring down at a saurus block with a 6-attack Str5 hero in it. If combat happened, my archers wouldn't stand a chance. I'd kept my distance, mind, and my opponent needed to roll 9” to make the charge. He didn't, and the saurus moved forward about 5”. For me, the set-up was now perfect.

The skink priest, afraid of the eagle, flew toward the centre of the field, hidden (annoyingly) from my repeater by the big pink Slann. His fellow skinks ignored the bird, though, and closed in to finish the last dragon prince. On the far side of the board, the other skinks just kept running.

In the magic phase, I let Throne of Vines and Regrowth go up on the temple guard, but I dispelled Stone on the saurus warriors. Magic wasn't going to save them!

The shooting phase wasn't game-changing, either: the skinks couldn't kill the last dragon prince.

High Elves Turn 4

The bladelord drank his potion and the swordmasters and spearelves then smashed into opposite flanks of the saurus warriors while the remaining dragon prince hit the rear. Short of a miracle, those lizards were in trouble. The eagle swooped down from the tower at the nearby skink skirmishers, who fled but were caught nonetheless. The white lions charged the last kroxigor and prepared to finish him off. The silver helms, who wanted to close in on the temple guard rather than hack their way through 25 saurus warriors, took a swift reform and moved around the base of the tower to stand where the dragon prince had just been. They'd have a charge on against the temple guard next turn and were now covered from the spears looking to stop them.

Image

Image

The magic phase gave me 9 power dice after the Banner, against my opponent's 5 dispel dice. I threw up a Shield of Thorns on the spearelves on 3 dice (which my opponent let through), and then chucked 6 dice at Dwellers against the temple guard. A bunch were killed but the Slann, once again, survived. Ugh. Shooting compounded the damage to this unit and, by the end of the phase, only 4 temple guard were left standing.

Image
Thud thud thud!

Combat went as it should: my elites provided the kills, my spears provided the ranks and I absolutely crushed the saurus warriors. My bladelord's challenge saw him brutally smashed by the scar-veteran (I had him rolling two 4+ saves to stay alive and he made one of them), but this couldn't turn the tide. The saurus needed double 1's, broke and were run down by my last dragon prince. The spears and swordmaster reformed to face the temple guard. Beyond them, the white lions had completely fluffed their attacks against the krox, who'd done likewise and allowed them to win the combat by 2. The lizard broke and they finally were able to run him down, although they found themselves in the middle of a swamp for their trouble.

Image
The saurus scar-veteran wins the battle, but he's about to lose the war...

Image
...as the saurus are completely wiped out.

By this point, I'd pretty much torn my opponent's army to pieces. His saurus spears were now in totally the wrong place to protect the temple guard, who were very few in number and surrounded by my whole army. Seeing that things had become pretty hopeless, my opponent decided to spare his Slann the ignominy of being cut to pieces, and conceded.

Image
Victory to the High Elves!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:00 pm
Posts: 47
Excellent win Seredain. If memory serves me right, this was one of the breeziest matches you've had a in a while.

Can't write much due to being at work and certainly can't much time admiring the photos, a quick question regarding one of your reform moves.

Quote:
They reformed to stand 3x2, opening up a flank charge for the chariot and dragon princes.


Can non-Bret Cavalry reform into a 3 wide front, i did not think it was ever possible in 8th or 7th edition to do so.

Loving the thread, drawing a lot of inspiration from it in my current league games with some friends!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:39 am
Posts: 36
Quote:
Can non-Bret Cavalry reform into a 3 wide front, i did not think it was ever possible in 8th or 7th edition to do so.


He sure can. You can reform into any formation you like as long as you dont have less models incontact than you begin with.
The special rule Brets have is that they can count there ranks with only 3 wide.
Seredain opted to go 3 wide as mentioned in his Battle report to open up the flanks for the charges. He had already lost too many models to count having a rank bonus anyway as he would need to have at least 5 models in the back rank, So he lost nothing by reforming and gained everything :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Smart reform move on your Silver Helms.

Did your opponent REALLY have a hat of vines add on to indicate Throne was in play??


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
Well, almost nothing, reforming that way means you have no ranks to count for steadfast, so a monster or skirmishers (who have 0 ranks by definition) would eliminate steadfast against that unit. Basically, don't do it unless there is a solid purpose as there was in Seredain's case.

Anyway, good battle Seredain! I liked how you got out of that pickle on the other side of the tower. He helped u a little with his division of forces. He played right into your hands with his TG unit turning around in circles without moving much for 2 or 3 turns. Just shows how much pressure you put on him! Well done!

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 246
gratz!

I only scan readed your post, so i could be mistaken. But your opponent did not really seem to have a plan, or was he really forced to keep reacting to your moves?

_________________
BORKS WAAAGH ON DA WARPATH
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?showtopic=25246


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:30 am
Posts: 498
Quote:
Combat saw the stegadon stamp, bite and headbutt its way into my silver helms, smashing 4 to the ground. By the end of the phase it was a pretty ragged dino, though, although Ulthuan's finest weren't quite able to bring it down (the damn iceshard blizzard encouraging me to roll terribly to hit). The beast went down to 2 wounds and won combat by 1 but, unsurprisingly, couldn't break my cavalry. They reformed to stand 3x2, opening up a flank charge for the chariot and dragon princes. I wasn't going to take any chances! Elsewhere, the eagle was quickly made to look like one of those pigeons that's just been run over by a car.

That was actually an illegal move, since before it 4 man was in contact and after reform 3.

Quote:
The magic phase was a disastrous 12 dice! Arrrgh! I made a slight wimpering noise, my opponent grinned broadly, and then he started chucking dice. Before I remembered to dispel Throne of Vines on one dice (my opponent would probably expend more casting it again)


That actually would have been a horrible idea. You risk 33% to totally mess up your dispel phase. If you are at a disadvantage, doing things like that is the easiest way to make a disadvantage even greater.

Quote:
All eyes now turned to the showdown between my knights and the ancient stegadon. Seredain popped the Talisman of Loec and cleaved the dinosaur, inflicting 4 wounds. Caradath swung his greatsword and finished the job and, within a matter of moments, the beast had come crashing down.

This is a big blunder from your opponent's side, he should have called for a challenge.

Anyways, nice report, as always.

cheers
Furion

_________________
FollowFurion on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Furion wrote:
That was actually an illegal move, since before it 4 man was in contact and after reform 3.


I don't believe that's true as only 2 or 3 were in base contact, based upon the photo and width of the steg. 4 SH can be killed since extra wounds carry over to the rest of the unit (per BRB p. 51).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:30 am
Posts: 498
ether_drake wrote:
Furion wrote:
That was actually an illegal move, since before it 4 man was in contact and after reform 3.


I don't believe that's true as only 2 or 3 were in base contact, based upon the photo and width of the steg. 4 SH can be killed since extra wounds carry over to the rest of the unit (per BRB p. 51).

Stegadon is 50x100.
Cavalary is 25x50.
Do the math ;)

Image

We can clearly see that there was no terrain features taht could potentialy block the front of stegadon.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not calling Seredain a cheater, I believe he was honestly mistaken or had a braindead during the heat of battle, which happens. I'm merely pointing out to a rules mistake.

cheers
Furion

_________________
FollowFurion on youtube for in depth WFB tactics analysis (click!)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:29 pm 
Offline
Tactician

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: USA
I love your reports, so once again I'll type as I read ...

I don't like his army list. I don't recall your campaign having significant comp limits, so the Slann should have the discard 6s power. The skink priests are pretty cruddy, and putting one on an engine is purely a liability. Certainly discard 6s is better magic defense than the flying priest with Diadem.
I don't see how 4 Kroxigor are of any value to him - HE kill them before they swing. In a skink unit the Kroxigors at least get to swing, and can kill your cavalry, but without the skink meat shields they just die.
His Slann did not deploy in the middle, which is bad. The baby stegadon is too far away and that makes your odds of killing it much much higher. And the Kroxigors are 4 wide instead of 2x2?

Then he starts out worse by attempting chain lightning turn 1. Rolling a 13 on 3 dice is not very likely. Casting Throne of Vines uses his dice better, makes use of Rumination, might consume your power dice, and allows for a second spell attempt, like awakening on an Eagle. Heck, dumping his dice into the diadem would have made more sense, since he chose to take the item he obviously think that concept is worthwhile (I don't).

hmmm, I seem to be a bit negative about your opponent. Hopefully that changes.

Looks like you set things up well on your turn 1. I think his proper answer is not to charge, but to block your Silver Helms with skinks while takes out the new Eagle. He might get lucky and hit you with the giant bow too ... I think I would actually not move that steg and shoot the bow in this position.

Turn 2:
I am pained by the baby stegadon charge. Strength 5 should not get past your armour much, and if he survives, he is out of Slann leadership range. He should kill 2 or 3 cavalry and take more than that from your characters.
Generally I don't like throwing away a Salamander for one shot like he is doing, but given your shooting, he isn't getting a second shot anyway, so that move makes sense. But he doesn't seem to have planned for the spears charging the Salamander, which may be your better move.

Well, baby stegadon rolled really well to kill 4 cavalry. d6+1 impact, plus 4 attacks, averages 6.5 hits, 2.7 kills. Even with -1 to hit, your Prince averages 2 wounds and your BSB another 1+, plus half a wound from the horses and guys. This does show the weakness of not taking a banner in your Silver Helms - with the unit banner you win on the musician and break the baby steg almost half the time.
You shouldn't have been able to reform to 3x2. Stegadon touches 2 cavalry exactly, with 2 more on the corners, for 4. You removed someone from combat.


Why charge the chariot into the stegadon? Maybe that will become clear, but my read of the battlefield is you might as well back it up for later combats.
Ahhh, as I suspected, you charged the Salamander!

Chariot overrun didn't leave it in the way of your other cavalry? That is what would have worried me for the next turn - it not having arc to charge anything, and blocking the charge path of the Dragon Princes as it sits.
Salamander charge worked perfectly. I'm doing better at anticipating your moves than your actual enemy! :)

Turn 3:
Burning alignment shouldn't do much to you. It can kill some Silver Helms, but only the characters really matter, and it won't hit them. (well, depending upon how you read the badly written distribution rules, most read it as the victim allocates).

I'm shocked you would risk dispelling Throne on 1 dice. If you roll 1 or 2, you lose your +4 for the rest of the phase.
Looks like Chain Lightning rolled really well. With just d6 hits and random odds of further hits, I think the spell is just too random to be a consistent threat. It can hurt, as it did here, but the odds are low. Let's see ... 4+ hits, bounce, 4+ hits, bounce, 3+ hits ... 7% chance.
With so few Silver Helms left, I think I would have let Curse of the Midnight Wind go and spent dice elsewhere. The characters charge out of the unit, leaving the hex behind. Although that was probably his last dice and your last dice.


How did your White Lions get through the spearelves? Fleeing units can go through things, but not pursuing units. You stop 1" away. (pg 57)

Your opponent should have issued a challenge with the Stegadon priest. That would prevent your BSB from attacking and ensure the Stegadon lives. It is about the only real virtue of the Engine of the Gods in 8th, I think.

Turn 4:
At first I thought he was wrong not to charge your characters with the Saurus block. But combined with the rest of his turn, not charging was the right move - he needs his magic elsewhere, and the primary job is just to delay your characters, not to kill them (yet).
His magic phase shows the weakness of Life - you stop Flesh to Stone and his units have to fight with no help. I'm not sure why he didn't just Dweller you once Throne was up though. You are doing it to him, why isn't he doing it back?


Good move with the characters and Silver Helms - running around the tower. I didn't think of swift reforming and then using the tower to block the Saurus.

And then it doesn't matter because your opponent has no real choice but to surrender!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
Interesting battle report, but your opponent seemed to play very casually, almost not even trying to win! For example that early chariot charge, my first reaction would have been "Free stand and shoot? Nice!" followed by rolling a tonne of 6s to poison it to death :D But it doesn't even seem like that thought occurred to either of you...

Add in a bit of Dweller action here and there from him and you should have been a lot more worried than you seemed!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:31 pm
Posts: 434
On the Chariot charge and Eagle charge, did the skinks refuse to stand and shoot, or were these flank charges? I never seem to get the luck when I charge with a chariot or eagle against skinks (especially long charges).

Stegadons against the cavalry was a bit of a daft move, cavalry runs the perfect counter to most big monsters, negating a thunder stomp and being able to save teh hits. He was better off letting the engine ruin the cavalry and dodging out of charge arcs if possible.

Excellently played, and it's impressive how much magic dominance you had the match.

Side note - While the kroxigors would flee through the spears (Taking dangerous terrain tests on the way) the lions would stop one inch short of the spears. Not a game changer in any regard, but something to be aware of. And interestingly, if you DO catch an enemy who would have otherwise been safe due to terrain or other units, you're still blocked by the obstacle, but the flee-er is eliminated anyway!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:05 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Battle Review

Furion wrote:
Quote:
Combat saw the stegadon stamp, bite and headbutt its way into my silver helms, smashing 4 to the ground. By the end of the phase it was a pretty ragged dino, though, although Ulthuan's finest weren't quite able to bring it down (the damn iceshard blizzard encouraging me to roll terribly to hit). The beast went down to 2 wounds and won combat by 1 but, unsurprisingly, couldn't break my cavalry. They reformed to stand 3x2, opening up a flank charge for the chariot and dragon princes. I wasn't going to take any chances! Elsewhere, the eagle was quickly made to look like one of those pigeons that's just been run over by a car.

That was actually an illegal move, since before it 4 man was in contact and after reform 3.

That's true! It's amazing how much attention you can pay to the little details and then miss something so obvious. Possibly a downside to playing with an opponent I'm so familiar with- we're quite informal and I swear we forget more stuff when we play together.

Fortunately the flank charge wasn't effected at all by this. The chariot didn't score a wound on the Steg and neither did the DPs (I didn't even roll for them- the Giant Blade had done all the work by then). In any case, reducing the helms' frontage to 4 would have opened the flank charge for the DPs (if not the chariot), so the principle behind the reform was still a sound one. Thanks for pointing out the mistake, anyway- it's important to get this stuff right for when it really matters.

Furion wrote:
Quote:
The magic phase was a disastrous 12 dice! Arrrgh! I made a slight wimpering noise, my opponent grinned broadly, and then he started chucking dice. Before I remembered to dispel Throne of Vines on one dice (my opponent would probably expend more casting it again)


That actually would have been a horrible idea. You risk 33% to totally mess up your dispel phase. If you are at a disadvantage, doing things like that is the easiest way to make a disadvantage even greater.

I thought this would be controversial! Normally I'd be entirely in agreement with you. In this instance not, though. The only spell I really couldn't afford going through this turn was Flesh to Stone and, for that, I'd saved the scroll. If I had lost my +5 to dispel, then, I'd still have blocked Stone and been ok to engage the ancient stegadon. The reason I took the 3+ roll was that it was the easiest way, where my opponent had loads of dice, to drain some from his casting pool: not just the 2 dice he'd use to cast the spell, but also the extra 'free' dice which would've been attached to that cast due to Focus of Rumination. By expending 1 dispel dice, I dragged a 3-dice cast from the Slann's magic phase and, if it had gone wrong, I still had the scroll to block the all-important Flesh to Stone. Not typical behaviour from me, then (if anything I can be over-cautious) but, I thought, worth the risk in this instance.

Furion wrote:
Quote:
All eyes now turned to the showdown between my knights and the ancient stegadon. Seredain popped the Talisman of Loec and cleaved the dinosaur, inflicting 4 wounds. Caradath swung his greatsword and finished the job and, within a matter of moments, the beast had come crashing down.

This is a big blunder from your opponent's side, he should have called for a challenge.

Yeah I wondered aloud that he should be looking for a challenge but he actually said he didn't want to! His reasoning was that, if I got to attack with everything, I'd be more likely to try and take down the ancient steg rather than the priest. He was hoping the dino would tank the hits (like the last one had) and survive for another round to unleash more engine death. If he challenged, however, I'd focus all my lord's attacks on the priest since there was no way I'd kill the dino: the priest would go down and the engine with it. The engine-less stegadon wouldn't have a hope of taking out my cavalry (only 3 attacks, hitting the prince on 5's, no thunderstomp), so I guess my opponent just tried to preserve the engine at all costs? It didn't work out, obviously: the characters killed the dino and the silver helms killed the priest. The thought process is worth mentioning, though- not challenging was a conscious decision rather than an omission. If my opponent had remembered about Loec, he might have thought differently: Seredain inflicted the full 4 wounds with his attacks- brutal.

Furion wrote:
Anyways, nice report, as always.

cheers
Furion

Many thanks. Useful comments as ever. I'll blunder my way to rules-expertise in time!

ether_drake wrote:
Did your opponent REALLY have a hat of vines add on to indicate Throne was in play??

He sure did! It's in some of the photos. It was a bit of jungle terrain we found lying around and it made a useful aide memoire (I was using a coin for my archmage - much less interesting). He's actually modelled vines around the clear plastic stand the Slann sits on, too. It's a great model all round.

jwg20 wrote:
Anyway, good battle Seredain! I liked how you got out of that pickle on the other side of the tower. He helped u a little with his division of forces. He played right into your hands with his TG unit turning around in circles without moving much for 2 or 3 turns. Just shows how much pressure you put on him! Well done!

You're absolutely right about the temple guard. The moment they started marching across the board toward my helms, I felt like I had it in the bag. I've sometimes wondered if temple guard are a difficult unit to use because, effectively, they're schizophrenic: the Slann wanted to get within buff range of the units fighting my knights while the temple guard would have wanted to close with my infantry and get into combat quickly. Because of this, and because he saw things unravelling on his left flank, the TG's got redirected from their original plan ("close quickly") to a new one ("shit! stop the knights"). Ultimately, my opponent succeeded in stopping my flank attack, but it took almost his whole army to do it! Further, when I'd had enough of trying to hammer my way through there, I was able to turn my knights about and move them around the tower, leaving the saurus spears stranded and opening up another line of attack against the withered temple guard. I love cavalry!

BorkBork wrote:
I only scan readed your post, so i could be mistaken. But your opponent did not really seem to have a plan, or was he really forced to keep reacting to your moves?

Further to the above, this may be true, yes. Certainly my army had more drops than his and was much quicker than his. The problem was compounded by the fact that my most manoeuvreable combat unit was also my most powerful: it drew (as it always does) an enormous amount of attention. My opponent just didn't have anything that could pin me down except the dinosaurs, and they were at the same time both very expensive units and very vulnerable to my cavalry prince (who specialises in this sort of thing). They held me up alright, but they died doing it and hemorrhaged a huge chunk of points to no real benefit: in the end, I only lost a chariot from that attacking flank!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
Baeronvonbleat wrote:
While the kroxigors would flee through the spears (Taking dangerous terrain tests on the way) the lions would stop one inch short of the spears. Not a game changer in any regard, but something to be aware of. And interestingly, if you DO catch an enemy who would have otherwise been safe due to terrain or other units, you're still blocked by the obstacle, but the flee-er is eliminated anyway!

I also wondered what was going here. The same points as you pretty much, I didn't know how the WLs got through the spears either. In the BetRep you didn't mention how the Kroxigor ralied and it probably wouldn't be able to down at less than 25% of casualties. In which case, your WLs would catch it an insta-kill it by charging a fleeing unit (assuming they got around the spears).

Seredain wrote:
By expending 1 dispel dice, I dragged a 3-dice cast from the Slann's magic phase and, if it had gone wrong, I still had the scroll to block the all-important Flesh to Stone. Not typical behaviour from me, then (if anything I can be over-cautious) but, I thought, worth the risk in this instance.

I agree with you here. As has been discussed (here and elsewhere) Throne has a massive effect on how the LoL magic phase is played out. For some reason this spell has some weird hold on people and I would agree that chucking a dice to get rid of it would probably have been a good idea knowing that your opponent would more than likely cast again.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:13 am
Posts: 1983
Location: Illinois, USA
Seredain wrote:
I thought this would be controversial! Normally I'd be entirely in agreement with you. In this instance not, though. The only spell I really couldn't afford going through this turn was Flesh to Stone and, for that, I'd saved the scroll. If I had lost my +5 to dispel, then, I'd still have blocked Stone and been ok to engage the ancient stegadon.

Be careful here. If your AM fails a dispel attempt, he can't later use his scroll. FAQ page 5:

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Can there ever be more than one attempt at dispelling a spell per
magic phase? Can a Wizard use a scroll if it isn’t allowed to make a
dispel attempt, for example the spell was cast with irresistible force or
the wizard has previously failed to dispel a spell that turn? (p35)
A: No to both questions.

_________________
Battle Standard Bearer. Don't leave home without it.
Bolt Thrower's High Elves


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:04 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Battle Review (2)

Baeronvonbleat wrote:
On the Chariot charge and Eagle charge, did the skinks refuse to stand and shoot, or were these flank charges? I never seem to get the luck when I charge with a chariot or eagle against skinks (especially long charges).

Stormie wrote:
For example that early chariot charge, my first reaction would have been "Free stand and shoot? Nice!" followed by rolling a tonne of 6s to poison it to death :D But it doesn't even seem like that thought occurred to either of you...

Thanks for reminding me! I think the reason there was no SaS was that the blowpipes only had a range of 12", and the failed charge didn't bring the chariot within range. I'll edit that in.

As for the eagle, it was stood atop the tower when the skinks were liable to stand and shoot, so it had a -2 to hit modifier from the tower's battlements. I think the idea was to flee, escape, rally and force the eagle to keep hunting the skinks for another turn rather than allow it to run harassment on the more valuable saurus spear block.

Stormie wrote:
Interesting battle report, but your opponent seemed to play very casually, almost not even trying to win!
I think 'distracted' is a better description! My knights really got inside his head once that first dinosaur died. People get used to their big monsters sticking around without really thinking about what two tooled-up elf characters can do to them. Once things start to unravel, it can be hard to keep your focus.

Baeronvonbleat wrote:
Stegadons against the cavalry was a bit of a daft move, cavalry runs the perfect counter to most big monsters, negating a thunder stomp and being able to save teh hits. He was better off letting the engine ruin the cavalry and dodging out of charge arcs if possible.

One of the reasons I chose a cavalry prince build in the first place!

Stormie wrote:
Add in a bit of Dweller action here and there from him and you should have been a lot more worried than you seemed!

Yeah I would've been chucking Dwellers at my archmage as often as possible! But this was the great advantage of applying really heavy pressure on the right flank: my opponent was convinced, with good reason, that he couldn't hold my helm hammer without the aid of all the buffs and hexes he could get his hands on. While he struggled to block and kill off my knights, there was simply no power left for Dwellers Below. Not as easy a decision as you might suggest, though: do you try and kill the deadly mage or the unstoppable warrior?

dabber wrote:
I love your reports, so once again I'll type as I read ...Nice commentary! Let's do this thing...

I don't like his army list. I don't recall your campaign having significant comp limits, so the Slann should have the discard 6s power. He used to run this ability, but it isn't too difficult for my archmage to stay more than 24" from the Slann and render the ability useless. This problem is compounded by the temple guard, who slow the Slann down significantly when compared with a High Elf mage deployed back- I can always leave the archers once I've cleared nearby skinks. I think Loremaster and free power dice with every cast makes the Slann pretty potent. The skink priests are pretty cruddy, and putting one on an engine is purely a liability. I'm pretty sure that an Engine of the Gods requires a priest to work it. No priest, no engine. My opponent knows he's a target, mind, which is why he's only a Level 1. Certainly discard 6s is better magic defense than the flying priest with Diadem. Yeah I don't rate the diadem: all well and good getting yourself an awesome dispel phase, but the Slann's all about casting so really you want to use all your power dice where possible.
I don't see how 4 Kroxigor are of any value to him - HE kill them before they swing. In a skink unit the Kroxigors at least get to swing, and can kill your cavalry, but without the skink meat shields they just die. This was his all-comers list (plus 185 points), and he's got pretty good service out of his kroxigor. They die hard against High Elf elites, though (which is why I placed my lions opposite them). I don't rate the mixed cohort: I simply replace the white lions with spearelves and score a ton of kills from the skinks, breaking steadfast. I prefer krox by themselves, but you're right about running them 2x2. Makes them a much better support unit for the saurus infantry.
His Slann did not deploy in the middle, which is bad. The baby stegadon is too far away and that makes your odds of killing it much much higher. Agreed. You need that Slann in buff range of any unit that might need it. And the Kroxigors are 4 wide instead of 2x2?

Then he starts out worse by attempting chain lightning turn 1. Rolling a 13 on 3 dice is not very likely. Casting Throne of Vines uses his dice better, makes use of Rumination, might consume your power dice, and allows for a second spell attempt, like awakening on an Eagle. Heck, dumping his dice into the diadem would have made more sense, since he chose to take the item he obviously think that concept is worthwhile (I don't). Agreed on all counts. Always tempting to chuck a chain lightning at an army like mine (lots of little units), but this wasn't the best move. Hmm... maybe he got 4 power dice instead of 3? Instinct says 3, which makes it a worse move as you say.

hmmm, I seem to be a bit negative about your opponent. Hopefully that changes.

Looks like you set things up well on your turn 1. Yeah, I have lots charges on and plenty of units to clear the skinks if I have to but, in any case, my helm bus is happy to receive a charge as well as make one, so the level of harassment here is pretty minimal (my opponent can't flank me or anything). So, there's little the skinks can do here to ruin the party. I think his proper answer is not to charge, but to block your Silver Helms with skinks while takes out the new Eagle. He might get lucky and hit you with the giant bow too ... I think I would actually not move that steg and shoot the bow in this position. Not a great move- I'll have an easy charge on it and, since the eagle's blocking the saurus spears, there's nothing to run to the rescue if I don't kill it in 1 turn (which I might with all those lances thrown into the mix). Better (I think) to retreat the dino, use the saurus spears as cover and set up a countercharge with the steg. Have the spears charge the eagle and take the reform to face the helms. Either way, charging the steg straight in wasn't going to work, as you say.

Turn 2:
I am pained by the baby stegadon charge. Strength 5 should not get past your armour much, and if he survives, he is out of Slann leadership range. He should kill 2 or 3 cavalry and take more than that from your characters. Relying on a good kill count and a stubborn cold-blooded break test. Possible but way too risky considering how far away the Slann is. The dino got lucky, really.
Generally I don't like throwing away a Salamander for one shot like he is doing, but given your shooting, he isn't getting a second shot anyway, so that move makes sense. But he doesn't seem to have planned for the spears charging the Salamander, which may be your better move.

Well, baby stegadon rolled really well to kill 4 cavalry. d6+1 impact, plus 4 attacks, averages 6.5 hits, 2.7 kills. Even with -1 to hit, your Prince averages 2 wounds and your BSB another 1+, plus half a wound from the horses and guys. This does show the weakness of not taking a banner in your Silver Helms - with the unit banner you win on the musician and break the baby steg almost half the time. I never miss the banner because I always kill enough, but here's a perfect example on why it can work. I won't spend 16 points on it, but it could've been golden here!
You shouldn't have been able to reform to 3x2. Stegadon touches 2 cavalry exactly, with 2 more on the corners, for 4. You removed someone from combat.We've discussed this above. I can't quite understand how we managed to miss that, to be honest.


Why charge the chariot into the stegadon? Maybe that will become clear, but my read of the battlefield is you might as well back it up for later combats.To make absolutely sure that it dies! Overly cautious in hindsight. Didn't need it and shouldn't even have been able to charge it in what with the reform rules error. The DPs would have still got in, mind.
Ahhh, as I suspected, you charged the Salamander!

Chariot overrun didn't leave it in the way of your other cavalry? That is what would have worried me for the next turn - it not having arc to charge anything, and blocking the charge path of the Dragon Princes as it sits.If it had stayed put it would've blocked off my silver helms, so I took the overrun as a lesser evil. In the end it turned out to be another form of harassment for the saurus spears and something else for the skinks to shoot.
Salamander charge worked perfectly. I'm doing better at anticipating your moves than your actual enemy! :)Yeah that was good work! The sally was just a gateway into the flank. A great opportunity for the spears.

Turn 3:
Burning alignment shouldn't do much to you. It can kill some Silver Helms, but only the characters really matter, and it won't hit them. (well, depending upon how you read the badly written distribution rules, most read it as the victim allocates).Why helms make better bodyguards for characters than dragon princes- numbers matter. I'm interested to hear your definition of allocating hits: normally we randomise successful hits (in this instance it was 1-4 hits helms, 5 hits BSB, 6 hits prince).

I'm shocked you would risk dispelling Throne on 1 dice. If you roll 1 or 2, you lose your +4 for the rest of the phase.I covered this in response to Furion's post. In short, I had the scroll for Flesh to Stone, so I thought it was worth the gamble using 1 dispel dice to drain 3 power dice (2 plus the free one) from my opponent's phase on a 3+ (I knew he'd want Throne up and so have to cast it again on 2 dice). It worked out rather well in the end.
Looks like Chain Lightning rolled really well. With just d6 hits and random odds of further hits, I think the spell is just too random to be a consistent threat. It can hurt, as it did here, but the odds are low. Let's see ... 4+ hits, bounce, 4+ hits, bounce, 3+ hits ... 7% chance. Yeah, that spell was shocking. Literally, arf.
With so few Silver Helms left, I think I would have let Curse of the Midnight Wind go and spent dice elsewhere. The characters charge out of the unit, leaving the hex behind. A very crafty idea, but too risky here. If the steg lives through the next combat phase, that engine is buzzing my characters without them having any cover. I didn't want to leave the helms unless it was really necessary. Nice idea, though: I've never thought about moving specifically to ditch hexes before: I'll remember that. Although that was probably his last dice and your last dice. Yeah I think it was.


How did your White Lions get through the spearelves? Fleeing units can go through things, but not pursuing units. You stop 1" away. (pg 57)Good shout. I thought this was the case, but wasn't sure and, instead of checking the book, I asked the audience. The ruling was that, if the pursuit took you at least half way through the friendly unit, you'd move to the other side. Plain wrong but, as has been said, not a game-changer. Another mental note made.

Your opponent should have issued a challenge with the Stegadon priest. That would prevent your BSB from attacking and ensure the Stegadon lives. It is about the only real virtue of the Engine of the Gods in 8th, I think.Agreed. The plan was to keep the priest alive by encouraging everything to attack the steg in the hope that it would tank the hits. It didn't work! I've looked at this in more detail in the post above.

Turn 4:
At first I thought he was wrong not to charge your characters with the Saurus block. But combined with the rest of his turn, not charging was the right move - he needs his magic elsewhere, and the primary job is just to delay your characters, not to kill them (yet).Yeah. I was net up on units at this point and completely dominating the centre. Expending magical capital in keep the saurus spears alive against my characters would have left the temple guard completely exposed. And obviously I'd have pinned the spears in place indefinitely: and my opponent needed them in the centre more than I needed my silver helms, since I already had dominance there even without them.
His magic phase shows the weakness of Life - you stop Flesh to Stone and his units have to fight with no help. This spell was made too important by the fact that I was just outmatching him in combat on the right flank. An obvious dispel. Having the Heavens hexes in support provided good backup, though. The skink priests have some value in this context, I think. I'm not sure why he didn't just Dweller you once Throne was up though. You are doing it to him, why isn't he doing it back?Too busy scrambling to stop my silver helms: all those dice are going on buffs and hexes. My small units make Dwellers a less attractive option too but, for sure, I was glad not to see it. A big Dwellers cast is one reason to take a scroll!

Good move with the characters and Silver Helms - running around the tower. I didn't think of swift reforming and then using the tower to block the Saurus.Cheers man. Just goes to show that a Ld10 BSB-toting cavalry unit with a musician really is one of the most flexible units in the game. Left the saurus spears stranded and useless but still gave me a charge on the temple guard. My most valuable musician by far, that one.

And then it doesn't matter because your opponent has no real choice but to surrender! Nothing to be done, really. Definitely beer o'clock.

Ace review, Dabber.

Bolt Thrower wrote:
Seredain wrote:
I thought this would be controversial! Normally I'd be entirely in agreement with you. In this instance not, though. The only spell I really couldn't afford going through this turn was Flesh to Stone and, for that, I'd saved the scroll. If I had lost my +5 to dispel, then, I'd still have blocked Stone and been ok to engage the ancient stegadon.

Be careful here. If your AM fails a dispel attempt, he can't later use his scroll. FAQ page 5:

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Can there ever be more than one attempt at dispelling a spell per
magic phase? Can a Wizard use a scroll if it isn’t allowed to make a
dispel attempt, for example the spell was cast with irresistible force or
the wizard has previously failed to dispel a spell that turn? (p35)
A: No to both questions.


Shit!! Wow, that's good to know. Good catch, BT: that will be important to remember... Lucky I rolled a 4, eh? :)

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:01 am
Posts: 1532
It's an interesting discussion though- a 2/3 chance of dispelling the Throne and leaving the magic phase hindered somewhat. Still, with, what was it, 12 power dice and probably +4 from Focused Rumination, he probably should have made you suffer more even with the success! I don't think the 1/3 chance of failure would have ruined things, just made the game a bit tougher. As it was, it worked perfectly and a 67% chance of success isn't a bad move at all :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 109
Furion wrote:
ether_drake wrote:
Furion wrote:
That was actually an illegal move, since before it 4 man was in contact and after reform 3.


I don't believe that's true as only 2 or 3 were in base contact, based upon the photo and width of the steg. 4 SH can be killed since extra wounds carry over to the rest of the unit (per BRB p. 51).

Stegadon is 50x100.
Cavalary is 25x50.
Do the math ;)


Ah, yup. Forgot about the adjacent base issue.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:23 pm 
Offline
The Cavalry Prince
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 1022
Location: London, England.
Stormie wrote:
It's an interesting discussion though- a 2/3 chance of dispelling the Throne and leaving the magic phase hindered somewhat. Still, with, what was it, 12 power dice and probably +4 from Focused Rumination, he probably should have made you suffer more even with the success! I don't think the 1/3 chance of failure would have ruined things, just made the game a bit tougher. As it was, it worked perfectly and a 67% chance of success isn't a bad move at all :)

Quite right! He who dares, wins. :)

Still, now that I know about the scroll being denied by a failed dispel, I still think I'll be chucking 2 dice in future!

_________________
The Cavalry Prince - List Design, Tactics, Battle Reports

It just ain't cool if your chrome don't shine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:31 pm
Posts: 434
S&S doesn't require range actually, as the order is declare charge, declare reation, resolve reaction, finish declraing all charges as such, then resolve all charges - SS is assumed to be shot as soon as a target is within range (so even though the charge failed ultimately, the shot would hav been taken.

And eagle on the tower! So many questions arise there :P Obviously friendly environment, but if he charged the eagle? Is it considered charging the building, etc?

Sorry for rulemongering, I've just had bad experiences with roaming skink groups taking out my eagles and chariots when I try to counter charge and get rid of em >.< Skink shooting always get me all riled up. And don't get me started on the damage a solid chameleon strike can do to your bolt thrower at a measly 2 wounds >.<


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1695 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 ... 57  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group