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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Staff of Solidity

I like the list LA but surely Earthing Rod is just better? Though there's probably some tactical point I've missed here.

akielzather wrote:
I would like to draw your attention to Plague spell. Toughness test or take a wound with no armour save. Against your list this is a spell i would be looking to take over dreaded 13th everytime. Main threat of your list is the Calvary bus and this spell is allot more lethal than dreaded against calvary armies. Can be cast into combat, so if by chance slaves have been used to slow you down. And to be frank, chance's are high that he will have plenty of them. Just a heads up as equally nasty a spell and could cause you some problems.

Yep, this ignores armour saves doesn't it? Arcane Protection would have come in handy here.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Interesting list. Very good balance of offensive and defensive aspects. With 60 archers, you will be great against weakly-armored horde armies like skaven or something (especially coupled with Curse of Arrow Attraction). One main weakness, I can see is your list would be pretty weak against something with a lot of heavy infantry. Usually an RBT or two is good to deal with heavily armored things, which archers are ineffective against (though 60 shots will still cause some casualties). Right now, your only counter to heavy cav is your own heavy cav or SM, which can be effective, but can't be everywhere at once. An RBT well placed will have a good selection of targets for you (covering basically the whole board, depending on terrain), whereas your cavalry can only deal damage to something in combat on the charge.

Good idea to put the musician in the archers, as this allows them to reform and still shoot if a charge is pending (re-rank to either 3x10 for 30 attacks, or 6x5 for 10 attacks and 6 ranks if you need to stay steadfast to set up a counter-charge with your cavalry, chariots or swordsmasters (I am sure this is your plan). I like the units of 7 SM. Its small enough that many people will not shoot at them. It has no capacity to absorb casualties, though, and every one that dies will be sorely missed. Still though, they don't scream "shoot at me" which could save them.

I am a little curious about the 10 reavers. Why 10 if you don't mind me asking? What do you plan to do with them? I would like to get your insight on why use 10 rather than 2 units of 5. Or, why not give them bows to get a little extra shooting? I am not saying its wrong or bad, I just want some insight on how you plan to use them.

Also, how do you plan on using your 8 DPs? Will they be in 1 rank, or in 5+3 formation? 1 rank would be devastating against a horde or deeply ranked steadfast unit on the flank, but will be more open to counter charges if all of them are not in combat. I suppose you plan on using the musician to set up their ranks properly the turn before you plan to charge with them?

4 eagles: awesome. Those will be annoying, that's for sure. I've never used 4 in one army unless one or two were being ridden by a noble and/or a prince, so I am curious how the 4 will work together. 1 eagle is a good thing, I can only imagine what 4 can do...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:36 pm 
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I dont like RBT, their damage output is poor for the points and they are easily killed. Terrain and screens also have to be factored in, and warmachine hunters. They eat 200 points of rare, while archers are just filling core.

10 Reavers would be there for my weighted flank to hit in the rear or flank with the helms or dp. They lose no hitting power from having 2 ranks as they only have 1 attack each. I have archers/eagles/chariots to clear away small units. Bows aren't worth the points, our shooting in general isnt. I only have the archers because they have to be there, and unlike rbt/reaver bowfire they provide some ranks and numbers, and compared to spears they have the same attacks and strength.

the 8 dp would be 5 or 6 wide with some extra bodies, or maybe 4x2, depending on what I'm lined up against.

Honestly though I have little hope for the list, I can't break hordes, I can't kill monsters, I can't survive shooting, my units aren't strong enough to take template damage, have no tank character, have no tarpit and so on. Big blocks of white lions would do the job but they are slow and expensive.

I might give the list a try, or build one with a designated hammer unit, (12-15 DP with a few characters). The issue is what to use to clear up units that try to stall them (I'm liking what chariots can do though) and also how to keep them alive against a simple horde unit with great weapons (st5 or 6), or against common shooting like double doom divers/organ guns.

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 12:42 am 
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Well anyways I'll post this battle rep in here because its basically seredain's list.

I touched it up a bit:
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec - 281
Level 4 Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life - 280
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190
30 Archers, sb, m - 345
14 Archers - Musician - 159
13 Spears, m 122
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord - 222
12 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85
2 RBTs - 200
1 Eagle - 50

Changed the core a bit. It happens to fall under ETC but we didnt have any restrictions.

Come up against a guy with VC, a chill guy.

His list was more or less the standard bunker style setup.

VC lord, lvl4, master of the black arts, helm of command, opal amulet, charmed shield, feedback scroll, summon ghouls
vamp bsb, forbidden lore shadow
necromancer, scroll, something else.
35 GG, barrows, FC
30 ghouls, c
30 ghouls, c
27 ghouls, c
3x5 wolves
8 wraiths
3 fellbats.


Deployment:

Image

Was tricky, lots of terrain in the way. I left the cav for last, but I think maybe DP should've gone on the other side to help out. Chariot was on warmachine duty. BSB placement near the house was because I didn't know which way the wraiths would go, and although likely they'd go right I couldn't be sure he wouldnt make a gap between his gg and ghouls and run the wraiths up there towards my helms/lord. His deployment was standard, by the time his first block is down I know where the rest will be and planned accordingly. Because of the open space on the left I start putting my chaff on that side.

VC 1:

Image

He runs up to threaten rbt straight away with the bats, understandable. The wood is a bother. I used scroll right away to stop a winds of undeath. Don't need more ethereals right away.

HE 1:

Image

Mage and spears jump in building, bsb runs into swordmasters in wood and loses a wound to DT test. I take the rbt off the hill behind respective archers and push the chariot back, I do some damage to the bats with archers. I heal the bsb in magic and get throne off, but dwellers on his bunker is dispelled. I made sure to keep helms out of 16 of the gg (march + vanhels).

VC 2:

Image

He pushes bats into woods and screens left wolves with ghouls. Ignore the ghoul block at the bottom of the picture (his summon pile). Wraiths make way towards my elites as I hoped he would.

HE 2:

Image

Have to charge now with the helms or I take GG to the teeth, I declare on the right ghouls along with lions. Lions fail but helms get in alright, and I'm fine with that. 2+ armor goes a long way to throwing a unit into combat vs an unbreakable horde. As a bonus my swordmasters + bsb roll high enough to get into the wraiths and setup a flank into the ghouls. chariot risks the DT and goes into the bats. In magic I dweller his bunker again, he uses feedback scroll which kills the lvl4. Feedback was not something I expected, its not a common item. The mage does need a ward save. But I do manage to drop the bsb and a bunch of ghouls. Combat goes well, wraiths and fell bats are wiped and the overrunning swordmasters + helms kill all but 5 ghouls after crumble, which is enough for him really. I did lose 3 helms to ghouls. This is all with helm of commandment giving ghouls ws7, so I like that damage. I could have done a better job with the eagle redirection, but even if I was 1 inch from the gg there is no stopping him from reforming on the spot (4 wide, 10 deep) and going into helm flank via van hels. I also moved 1 rbt back onto the hill.

VC3:

Image

He does just that and hits the helms in flank with vanhels. I catch a break and he rolls a 1-1 for second raise roll in magic, so I only have to deal with 7 ghouls, instead of potentially alot more. Left ghouls run towards the archer horde, an I like that move really, once his units move out of his bubble I can kill them off easier. I think he starts making mistakes with his wolves here, he could've been more aggressive in using them to redirect but he just leaves them within charge range of chariot. But I suppose if he moves them anywhere close to rbt I shoot them down. But why not plant the right unit in front of white lions? Helms are wiped out and GG combat reform into horde, granting them more attacks and putting white lions into their front arch. I reform the swordmasters (who are now of combat) so they'd be able to charge into the GG without hitting the prince, I also use the reform to put bsb on the other edge.

HE 3:

Image

Lions and swords charge GG. Chariot also charges the wolves. I also put eagle into vamp lord to negate helm of commandment for one round of combat. This was big as I succeeded in wiping out the GG in one single big round of combat. I was a bit lucky he didn't KB the lord, and I killed the unit out right with just a single spare combat res point.

VC 4:

Image

He wants to charge rbt with ghouls but can't because of archers blocking wheel. So he goes into archers and I maul him. Elves in horde are still elves in horde even if they are archers. Magic gives me some problems with a winds of undeath going through, then the spirit bases getting van hels-ed into the white lion. Ghouls are increased and pushed towards swords.

HE 4:

Image

I don't think its wise to go into horde ghouls with helm of commandment with the characters and a few swordmasters, so I charge the bsb into the vamp lord flank (his mistake), reform the swords, and run the prince around to try to get into the vamp lord in my next turn if bsb can hold him. I reshuffle some stuff, but fail to shoot the necro with rbt. I fail to cause a wound (charmed shield and opal amulet) while he puts one on me. I do win combat by 2 and hes got just a wound left. The pic is just after he reforms in ghouls in turn 5.

VC 5:

Image

He reforms ghouls and vanhels them into bsb, then casts winds of undeath again which kills the bsb, overrunning the block into the prince's flank.

HE 5:

Image

I put swords into ghoul flank, and also get archers to charge necro and dp to charge the (stationary) dire wolves. I chop down alot of ghouls but lose a few swordmasters. WL break but get away from spirit hosts.

VC 6:

Image

He gets vanhels off on the ghouls giving them ASF and rerolls but it doesn't matter and I wipe the unit out.

HE 6:

Reformed prince charges into vamp lord and burns talisman of loec just in case and kills the vamp at the very end.

-----------
Thoughts:
-mage needs a ward save.
-prince is a beast, hes the real damage not the helms. They're just the delivery method. Once hes in a unit he generates combat res to basically stick around against anything, especially if bsb is close. Bumping up the helms might not be so important.
-the army is very large and wide, and units didn't see meaningful action because of this (DP). Clutter is not a good thing, makes it harder to avoid, especially when many of these units can't go into the front of a horde block.
- I was a bit lucky white lions weren't redirected, and that I didn't lose the prince to KB. Either of those would have meant GG would have survived the first charge, and then after he heals them I'd be in a bit more trouble.
- I think core is just right. A big archer unit, little archer unit and little spears for holding the mage.
- Not sold on life, Dwellers needs lots of dice to get through, and I have to spend dice on throne for protection. It seems early game I didn't have much to cast and late game when I lose models I wouldn't have the dice to cast dwellers. The problem is that its so easy for the opponent to know what my priority spell is and which ones to let through.
- I was surprised at how the little elite units held up against horde gg and ghouls, who have enough attacks to hurt most stuff badly.

Thats all for now should be fun to try the list again.
-bsb setup is nice, 1+ rerollable vs shooting and 2+ rerollable in combat with a great weapon.

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:40 am 
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Nice work, so your initial RBT idea played out, they didn't seem to do a lot other than draw the bats in and scare the wolves, would you use them again?

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Congratulations on the win, Lord Anathir!

I thought you are going to post a report when you play a battle with a list you presented earlier. Why did you change your mind?

There is an opinion (at leat I was under the impression that there is) that VC are much weaker and they struggle against HE anyway. Do you think you had an advantage in this match up straight away?

What other Lore would it be better for that particular army list in your opinion?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Well I wasn't sure of my own list and I just wanted a fun game with a 'tested' list.

I have had a hard time with VC in the past especially with the blood knight bus (12 bloodknights, vamp bsb with drakenhoff, vamp with helm of commandment, vamp lord with 6st5 attacks + infinite hatred + red fury or whatever its called, potion of strength, a 1+ rerollable armor with 2+ ward vs fire (or 4+ regen from banner). And other such deathstars. Which is one reason why I'm thinking High Magic might be better, to get rid of that key item that makes a deathstar work.

Regarding RBT I will keep them for now.

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Seredain, as I believe you have a reason for fielding every model in your army, I would request that you take a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35304 I believe there can be a few interesting viewpoints about our elites there.

Also - how was your fight against Skaven?

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
Reformed prince charges into vamp lord and burns talisman of loec just in case and kills the vamp at the very end.

Bingo!

Thank you for that report, Anathir. It was nicely done and nicely played - great maps and a good read. Some interesting points worth raising, too.

The Archer Horde

Your 30-archer horde is an excellent unit. I believe Krysith has argued convincingly for the value of an all-archer core and it strikes me as being, potentially, one of our strongest setups. Applying the archer horde to my list, it certainly gives you a very excellent shooting phase, with the repeaters, while the archers themselves are actually rather good at close combat - as they showed against those ghouls you were facing, especially after a few turns of shooting followed by stand and shoot. Defensively it is a very strong unit indeed. The issues to watch out for, it seems to me, are as follows:

1- The army's width, which you noted was increased by the number of drops (I'll come to this in a minute), is increased further by fielding the archer horde, which is twice as wide as a spear column (I don't see this as being an inherent problem in itself, but it's worth remembering).

2- This unit is not able to break steadfast against many units. The list therefore loses a lot of offensive power by not being able to throw all those ranks into an enemy unit alongside the helms or princes or a unit of killy elites. You will therefore rely on these other units a lot more than is currently the case to drive home your assault, making the list's offensive abilities more brittle. The archer horde's ability to combine with other units at all in close combat is limited by its width: you'll need flank charges against most units fighting it if it looks like it's getting into trouble.

3- Likewise the unit will not remain steadfast if tasked with holding a flank in close combat. Units which are resistant to shooting (either due to numbers, toughness or armour) are a threat to it, especially units with multiple ranks.

4- Linked to point (2), the offensive abilities of the list are affected by this core choice in terms of your ability to maneouvre in a manner which secures your elites' attack. In terms of targets charged by a combination of knights and elites (or elites and elites), the power of your attack is potentially increased by the fact that you can put a large number of arrows into the target. This is useful. The offensive capabilities of the army as a whole, however, are obviously damaged. Aside from the loss of a steadfast-breaking infantry column, the archers' abilities mean they are inherently less maneouvreable than spears. They'll be shooting every turn rather than marching so, when you commit to your attack with your elites going forward, you won't have your core choice in direct support covering the flank of the attack. A column of spears moving up with the elites can prevent a flanking move against them like that made by the grave guard against your silver helms. As you found, the prince will often save the day but, in principle, you want to avoid being flanked!

Battle Review - Anathir vs Vampires

Lord Anathir wrote:
Thoughts:
- mage needs a ward save.

Need is the wrong word, but you do run the risk of this guy taking wounds. Being a life mage, he can mitigate these by putting lost wounds back on with every cast and keeping away from combat. Now you have to decide whether removing points from another unit is worth getting a 5+ ward against stuff like the feedback scroll (even on 6 dice, it's unlikely to kill him - personally I save the points and take the risk). You can't cover every base, so this is a judgment call for you!

Lord Anathir wrote:
- prince is a beast, hes the real damage not the helms. They're just the delivery method. Once hes in a unit he generates combat res to basically stick around against anything, especially if bsb is close. Bumping up the helms might not be so important.

That's right! I love him. As you suggest, more helms are basically more wounds - they'd be a bit of a luxury at these points.

Lord Anathir wrote:
- the army is very large and wide, and units didn't see meaningful action because of this (DP). Clutter is not a good thing, makes it harder to avoid, especially when many of these units can't go into the front of a horde block.

As discussed, your archer horde makes the army wider than it might otherwise be, so clutter is more likely to be a problem for you. It also seems you were a little timid in getting your DPs forward on the flank for the first couple of turns, keeping them hanging around the wood for Turns 1 and 2.

I suspect that, if you wanted to, you could get round the flank with your knights in pretty short order. An effective way to do this is to hold the infantry back for a turn while the knights (in this case your DPs) get into position. By the time combat hits the dragon princes will be in a good position to lend a hand. In this battle, you came straight forward with the elite infantry and therefore left your knights playing catch-up. In principle, I've found it better to maneouvre into the flank with the cavalry before declaring charges with my infantry.

Lord Anathir wrote:
- I was a bit lucky white lions weren't redirected, and that I didn't lose the prince to KB. Either of those would have meant GG would have survived the first charge, and then after he heals them I'd be in a bit more trouble.

An awkward situation which had me worried while I was reading! As discussed, since you sacrificed the supporting spear column for the archer horde, you'll need to work harder to cover your attacking flank with this list. A redirector could do this for a turn- the eagle first then, after he's gone, the small spear detachment- giving you time to prepare a defence and/or move your archer horde up in support.

Lord Anathir wrote:
- I think core is just right. A big archer unit, little archer unit and little spears for holding the mage.

Yep, the archer force is potent. I'm not quite sure what the point of the small spears is. Do you just want them for the extra bodies for miscasts and panic tests? I'd probably just take 10 archers with a musician as the third unit. With the points saved you're only about 2 or 3 points off getting the standard of discipline on the archer horde - good for testing for free reforms.

Lord Anathir wrote:
- Not sold on life, Dwellers needs lots of dice to get through, and I have to spend dice on throne for protection. It seems early game I didn't have much to cast and late game when I lose models I wouldn't have the dice to cast dwellers. The problem is that its so easy for the opponent to know what my priority spell is and which ones to let through.

I know you and Life don't get along! I've spoken about Life magic earlier in this thread but I'll say here that you really shouldn't find yourself short of options in any magic phase. If you only get Throne of Vines up in Turn 1, that weakens the enemy magic phase (should they try and dispel it). 24" is also plenty of range to achieve something useful- such as buffing your fast units as they close the enemy and put themselves within range of their magic and shooting. If you roll an average number of power dice, though, you still have enough for Throne then Dwellers every turn, or Throne and a couple of buffs. The buffs especially can prove invaluable to the elites. Hold onto the lore for a bit and I bet you it'll come in handy before long!

Lord Anathir wrote:
- I was surprised at how the little elite units held up against horde gg and ghouls, who have enough attacks to hurt most stuff badly.

I'm pleased you found this. Really like your version of the list and I'll be following your further reports with great interest.

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Seredain, as I believe you have a reason for fielding every model in your army, I would request that you take a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=35304 I believe there can be a few interesting viewpoints about our elites there.

Also - how was your fight against Skaven?

Well, my fight against the skaven isn't going to happen! Turns out it's daemons again (yippee). Apparently I was supposed to get my game in yesterday, but no-one told me so we'll have to rearrange or, worst case scenario, I'll have to forfeit the round! Will keep you posted and, as soon as I fight my next battle, I'll get another report up.

Swordmasters vs White Lions

Now, as for Swordmasters vs White Lions, I don't rate either of them over and above the other. Against WS 4 T3 AS 2+ knights they both do fine but the swords do better by about a wound, when it goes up to higher toughness and armour (T4 1+), the white lions start to do better, though the swords have an advantage against enemies with WS5 - they're particularly good against daemons. White Lions have an advantage when enemies have T5 or 6 and a decent armour save, as long as they have WS4 or less - this includes plenty of the warhammer world's nastier monsters. In these situations, the Lions are ahead by about a wound before armour saves (which'll obviously favour them).

Generally speaking, then, swordmasters are better in close combat against basic units (quite a lot better against T3 WS5 troops), but white lions have stubborn - a big deal since I field small units- and the cloaks, which are very good against arrows and hydra breath. Lastly, against armour save 4+ troops, the Str6 of the lions is excellent since, by getting rid of the save altogether, you remove the chance that your opponent will fluke a bunch of 6's to save (it's a dice game- it happens).

Because of these various abilities, the lions have a little more tactical flexibility than the swords. I can use mine to fend off knights, stop monsters, join an attack or stubbornly hold a flank to protect my knights: like a large swiss-army knife, they can pretty much do anything. As for the swordmasters, they are designed only for melee (and it's what they're good at), so they tend to go in the middle of my army where I'll be able to protect them better from missiles with my shooting and, opposite which, will typically be sat the enemy infantry.

In conclusion, I'd say both types of elite have a place in an all-comers list.

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:12 pm 
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if you are not sold on Life, and with so many archers, surely Shadow, would be a great thing for the army, can lower the T of the enemy you want to shoot, can lower the BS of the unit trying to shoot you, can pit stuff ,mindrazzor the archers, if not the SM,

All in all ,I think Shadow to be a great lore, and useful from turn one to six.

Just my little input.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:26 am 
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I'd also be interested in seeing Shadow used with this list as I believe it's a lore better suited to random spell selection than Life, which, in my opinion, relies upon good spell selection.

Did you try running Shadow? I mean I've seen how instrumental Life can be, but so can Shadow as well! I guess a couple of choices would have to be re-thought ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:09 pm 
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are there any mods out there, that would not mind making this a sticky, as it is very very good reading for noobs and experienced playes.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:19 pm 
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mcpolle wrote:
are there any mods out there, that would not mind making this a sticky, as it is very very good reading for noobs and experienced playes.

Polle


+1. This thread has helped myself and others tremendously. It inspired me to make my own army blog. I really hope more people will follow up on this. A few other members, most notably SpellArcher and Swordmaster of Hoeth, have their respective army development threads. However, I would've definitely liked to see some from the more 'hardcore' High Elf players with e.g. optimized competitive lists. As I said, this thread is wonderful and we need more like it. Stickying it makes sure people see it easily. For new visitors, a stickied thread with 14+ pages and over 10,000 views should be well worth reading.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:44 am 
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I really love the HE, with everything, the fluff, but have had problems making them work for me on the tabletop, but I keep coming back, mainly to check up on this thread.

It is very inspiring, for one thing to see people actually doing ok with HE, but also the insight, and the discussions.

Polle


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:09 am 
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Seredain the problem I have with blocks of spears is that they can only fight in combat, as oppose to archers who can shoot and fight. Also when faced with enemy shooting not only can archers counter-fire but when they take massed casualties (say they lose half a unit), they can still pump out 15 bowshots a turn, as oppose to 16 spears who can do basically nothing.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Lord Anathir - I think the way Seredain uses his spear elves work thou, they are not there for a hard hitting combat unit. It is there for a threat, take the hits and to break stead fast.

Overall i am with you, i prefer archers, for 2k, i ussually run with all archers. But for larger games i do switch in a 30 strong spear unit.

I am yet to run shadow, but all the reports i have read suggest shadow really boast the spears, as does life(for staying power).

It is not what core we take, it is how we use it that counts. Often we will win or lose games on how we use our core troops.

If you re-re the daemon fight posted on page(9-10) i think?, It was the core that ended up breaking the big unit at the end a sealing the win for Seredain. Conversly, I have won games because of what my archers have done before the combat starts. LSG also have won me games in by softening up one unit and taking it out in combat. Our elites are amongst the best in the game, but with out our sub prime core our armies would be far to small in numbers to take on most amies in 8th.

Do not get me wrong, our core is very weak over all, but i am a firm believer that to0 many of us over look what they do for us game in game out.

This entire thread started when some one decided to build an army with Silverhelms, arguably one of our weakest special choices , as thier hammer unit. And by the pages and pages of discussion it now clear that nearly every unit can be played effectivily. So when we reveiw what core we use remember on how to use it.

Anyway - have fun with your core.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
. However, I would've definitely liked to see some from the more 'hardcore' High Elf players with e.g. optimized competitive lists.

Give me a couple of years.

:)

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:04 am 
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Thank you for the comments everyone.

Anathir,

The Spearelf Column vs the Archer Horde

The archer horde is an excellent unit. Individually, it may in fact be a stronger unit than the 35 spears since, as you say, it can shoot and fight. I'll mostly leave alone the combative vulnerabilities of a three-rank horde unit (you won't be keeping hold of those three fighting ranks for long), and instead deal with the question of synergy. As Akielzather nicely pointed out, it was the spear column charging in with all those ranks which won me the game against the daemons. In the game against Lizardmen, too, the spears, down to about 16 models after being hit by blowpipes and Dwellers Below, were responsible for breaking steadfast (and getting 4 kills) which caused the big block of saurus spears with Scar Vet BSB to break after the swordmasters had done a load of killing.

Fighting in a column of ranks of 5, the spears can take a load of punishment and still be breaking steadfast in conjunction with the smaller elite units. For this they are naturally more effective than an archer unit deployed 10x3. There's also the question of manoeuvres. An archer unit is naturally going to spend much of the game shooting. This will prevent it from moving up quickly with the elites and either forming part of the main attack (where the spears would be marching forward to break steadfast), or advancing to cover the flank of the attack being made by the cavalry and elites (in your last game, your elite attack had no flank cover, which allowed the grave guard to get into the flank of your knights). The extra armour and fighting ranks of spears should not be dismissed (they make spears better at winning combats against large units of weak horde troops - the spears can combine more attacks with more ranks in a way archers cannot), but the usefulness of spearelves are as much about the following:

1- their formation - a column breaks steadfast more easily and allows a very large unit of spears to combo charge an enemy unit alongside another high elf unit (or two) even where it has a small frontage;

2- their manoeuvreability - the fact that they do not have to shoot means that they will be using all their movement every turn to put them in the most advantageous position to support your other units. The fact that they are 5-wide also means they are more able to thread their way around the battlefield (terrain and other units) to get to where they need to be: against the daemons, I free reformed and moved 5" literally every turn until the final charge on Turn 6.

Both of these qualities improve the army's aggressive combat qualities and are key reasons (alongside the fighting ranks and armour) for my fielding spears over archers. Finally, though, there is the defensive nature of the steadfast column. Powerful enemy units which can shrug off arrows will quickly overwhelm a 3-rank archer unit (unless you reform it and lose much of your shooting and extra rank of attacks). Against such an enemy the spear column is much more likely to stay steadfast and hold.

In summary, the spear column is the cheapest rock that a High Elf army can field and, if used properly, can make itself more useful to the rest of the army than more arrows, particularly in the attack. I do see the benefits of the archer horde (individually it's very fliexible) but, for me, the spearelves provide the ideal steadfast ally to the small elite units. The elites can provide kills but not ranks. The spearelf column is the best unit we have for providing ranks and, since it doesn't need to worry about shooting or deploying in shallow formations, can make sure they get into combat at the right time, in the right place, bringing the most ranks to bear.


McPolle and Curu,

Shadow Magic?

Shadow is excellent, especially for spears. I think it would be a very viable choice for this list. For the archer-horde version, too, withering would be excellent (as well as mindrazor). The default spell is certainly one of the best.

I've explained why I chose Life Lore earlier in the thread (check the Contents Page) but, to recap, Life is cheaper to cast (I don't have the Banner of Sorcery), has miscast protection, protects small elite units (toughness and regrowth are gold dust for them), heals my characters (allowing the heroes to be reckless and the archmage to stay cheap), and has the horde-melting spell to end all horde-melting spells (another good thing for protecting smaller units - get rid of those enemy ranks!). The fact that Dwellers also kills war machines is just a bonus.

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:05 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
. However, I would've definitely liked to see some from the more 'hardcore' High Elf players with e.g. optimized competitive lists.

Give me a couple of years.

:)

Haha, I think SpellArcher the Chariot Prince has a certain ring to it, don't you? :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:30 am 
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Seredain wrote:
The fact that they are 5-wide also means they are more able to thread their way around the battlefield (terrain and other units) to get to where they need to be: against the daemons, I free reformed and moved 5" literally every turn until the final charge on Turn 6.

I'm finding this especially with cavalry. Considered going with 6's but 5's are just better at maneouvering around the increased terrain now.

Seredain wrote:
Haha, I think SpellArcher the Chariot Prince has a certain ring to it, don't you

One day, hopefully!

I've actually considered dropping him, I have a hankering to convert a dragon. I might also be able to stretch my Helms to 7 so he could go in there. Doubt I willl do this though, it's just not as effective as the 10-strong hammer and I love my chariot too much! Considering putting the BSB in there though, cheaper and a useful unit.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:46 am 
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Hey guys,

I just took the cavalry prince set up in a battle report that's up on youtube. My opponent is relatively new to wood elves, but there it is.

Other than the cavalry, my list is very different than Seredain's. I'd like any feedback you have on my batrep!

http://www.youtube.com/user/Cadet297?feature=mhee


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Well Seredain I'm sure I speak on behalf of a lot of others when I say that we miss you already ^^ I suppose real life's keeping you occupied - as it should be, from time to time!

Anyway, the thing I wanted to ask about here.

Recently, since I'm playtesting Shadow, I've thought about the possibility of equipping the Prince with Blade of Leaping Gold instead of the Ogre Blade. Now, it's definitely not as reliable... However... 7 S10 ASF hits? Did this ever cross your mind? The way I see it - activating Loec also gives him a chance of cutting down r'n'f (even without magical support) which is umatched by our current setup. Just wanted to check if you ever considered this.

Anyways, please get back to us as soon as you can take a break from RL ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Great thread, Iv read most of it and I'm happy to have done so! Anything that is trying to play the game differently and succeeding is ace in my book! I'd love to play against this type of list with my WE. I'm hoping to have time to make a proper rundown and evaluation thread of my own after I'm done with school next week and I'd love to get your comments on it Seredain! If your interested it can be found here: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20461

A new thread with a deeper analysis where I'll list my reasoning behind the units I'm running, there eq setup, synergies and roles will be up after next week.

/Johan R


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Hi All,

I am new to the site (this is in fact my first post). I have however been lurking for about a week. I have absolutely loved readng this thread, it has been amazingly informing and has really got me thinking about an HE army.

I have been playing around in Army Builder to see what I could do with the list based on what models I have currently and how I would go about planning to build this army. I have had to make a few changes based on the models I have at present and came up with this slightly contentious version of the list:

2500 Pts - High Elves Roster

Prince (1#, 286 pts)
. . 1 Prince, 286 pts (General; Barding; Hand Weapon; Dragon Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)
. . . . 1 Giant Blade
. . . . 1 Helm of Fortune
. . . . 1 Pidgeon Plucker Pendant
. . . . 1 Talisman of Loec

Noble (1#, 180 pts)
. . 1 Noble (Battle Standard Bearer), 180 pts (Always Strikes Last; Barding; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
. . . . 1 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)
. . . . 1 Dragonhelm
. . . . 1 Dawnstone
. . . . 1 Ironcurse Icon

Archmage (1#, 280 pts)
. . 1 Archmage, 280 pts (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Dispel Scroll

Lothern Sea Guard (25#, 350 pts)
. . 24 Lothern Sea Guard, 350 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Sea Master (Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)


Archers (12#, 132 pts)
. . 12 Archers, 132 pts (Hand Weapon; Longbow)

Archers (13#, 143 pts)
. . 13 Archers, 143 pts (Hand Weapon; Longbow)
Archmage in this unit as normal

Sword Masters of Hoeth (14#, 222 pts)
. . 13 Sword Masters of Hoeth, 222 pts (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
. . . . 1 Bladelord (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)

White Lions of Chrace (12#, 214 pts)
. . 11 White Lions of Chrace, 214 pts (Always Strikes Last; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Stubborn)
. . . . 1 Guardian (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
. . . . 1 Banner of Eternal Flame

Silver Helms (8#, 208 pts)
. . 8 Silver Helms, 208 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield)
. . . . 8 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)

Dragon Princes (5#, 150 pts)
. . 5 Dragon Princes of Caledor, 150 pts (Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Dragon Armour; Shield)
. . . . 5 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)

Tiranoc Chariot (3#, 85 pts)
. . 1 Tiranoc Chariot, 85 pts (Swift Stride; Chariot)
. . . . 2 Crew (Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear)
. . . . 2 Elven Steed (Swift Stride)

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 100 pts (Repeater Bolt Thrower)
. . . . 2 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Repeater Bolt Thrower (3#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 100 pts (Repeater Bolt Thrower)
. . . . 2 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)
. . 1 Great Eagle, 50 pts (Swift Stride; Flyer; Stomp)

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition;
Game Type: Normal Game;
Army Subtype: High Elf Army;
Special Rules: Forbid Special Characters
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 566 (0 - 625)
Points of Heroes: 180 (0 - 625)
Points of Core: 625 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 879 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 250 (0 - 625)

Total Roster Cost: 2500

So at a glance the main changes were the removal of the Spearmen and the addition of the Lothern Sea Guard. I have done this purely because of the models (I own the island of blood set). What I am interested in knowing, is whether the unit of lothern Sea Guard will be able to function strategically, in a similar fashion to the Spearmen in the original list (with the added bonus of a possible extra bit of shooting).
My limited experience tells me that it should be ok, and would eventually even itself out with a few tactical tweaks (playing to the strength of the unit etc) - how would one change the existing tactics to match a sea guard set-up? I know there are 10 less models in the unit - would the rank bonus be sufficient if more survive the inevitable hail of missile and magic fire that would come there way?

I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and apologise if this newbie is trying the patience of the more seasoned members of the forum.

The Idle Vagrant.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:08 pm 
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the whole key to the spearman unit is its ability to break steadfast while taking hits, all due to its ranks!

also in your list, its down that swordmasters always strike last, they infact always strike first as do all high elves


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Ahoy shipmates!

It's been ages, I know, but I hope you'll be satisfied if I tell you only that real life has been a time-consuming son of a gun for the last few weeks. Thanks to you guys who have posted recently: I'll have a proper look over the thread and get some replies heading your way soon. Back in the world of WHFB, then, a couple of things have happened with the ongoing mighty empires campaign and they are as follows:

My Game 2, against Daemons, was missed because someone forgot to tell me I had a game on. I had to automatically forfeit that round, then, and only won 1 campaign point. Gargh! I built a mine, which got me a little gold and promptly collapsed. I understand that elves aren't brilliant at mining, but this was annoying.

Battle Report - High Elves vs Skaven

I then played my Game 3, against Skaven. This guy had an unpainted army (so he automatically loses 250 points), but he'd made up the difference with much better luck from his mines. I didn't spend much gold this turn because, since he was at a points disadvantage (I didn't bother thinking about his mining), I figured I could take him. Fate decided to test me, however, by sending me some violent food poisoning via some bad tapas. I was about to learn that playing a game of Warhammer whilst high on codein and having not eaten for 4 days, was actually quite difficult. To improve my chances despite my befuddlement, I opted at the last minute to include the Banner of Sorcery on the swordmasters. Core allowance had to increase slightly to allow for this, so another trooper and a musician went on the small archers. Everything in my 'set' list stayed in (them's the rules), so my list was as follows:

Seredain
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286

Lecalion
Level 4 Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life - 280

Caradath
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

35 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 345
14 Archers - Musician - 159
12 Archers - Musician - 137

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
12 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

2 RBTs - 200
1 Eagle - 50

= 2578 points

My opponent had rolled the scenario "elite army" and was therefore allowed to take unlimited numbers of any special or rare unit as limited only by total rare/special allowance. He'd taken this to heart and had chosen a total of 60 gutter runners arrayed in 4 units (I'm not sure if runners are special or rare - perhaps he could've done this anyway). His list looked something like this:

Warlord- No AS weapon, 4+ Ward, AS 4+
Hero- +1 Str, +1 Att weapon
Hero- Stuff
Hero BSB- Stuff

38 Clanrats FC, spears (Lord + BSB here)
39 Clanrats FC, spears (Hero)
39 Clanrats FC, spears (Hero)

40 Plague Monks FC - Plague Banner (re-roll missed hits and wounds- one use only).
Doomwheel
15 Gutter Runners w/ 3 netters (don't know the name for the skaven equivalent)
15 Gutter Runners w/ 3 netters
15 Gutter Runners w/ 3 netters
15 Gutter Runners w/ 3 netters

Warp Lightning Cannon
Warp Lightning Cannon

Not exactly a typical Skaven list, then. No slaves, HPA or plague furnace (I was pleased not to see the latter). The volume of gutter runners was a big worry, however. Along with the warp lightning cannons I figured I'd be taking some big hits at range. On the plus side (a big plus!), this guy hadn't brought any magic at all. "Skaven magic is rubbish", my opponent said, with authority. I wasn't about to argue.

I didn't take any pictures because I was concentrating very hard on not falling over and the enemy army wasn't painted, but I have put together some maps using Battle Chronicler, which I've finally figured out. Ace.

Spells

Lecalion got Awakening, Flesh to Stone, Regrowth and then had to choose between Throne of Vines and Dwellers Below. Lots of people talk about Throne being necessary for Life to even work, but skaven are one of those armies against which you can operate without it: Flesh to Stone and Awakening don't need the boost to work against low strength and toughness ratmen. I chose Dwellers to tackle the hordes and hoped I wouldn't miscast too often...

Deployment

Image

I set up my missile fortress early around the tower until he dropped down his lord's unit, when I threw down my killy units. The dragon princes and eagle went down on the left to throw my opponent off (he dropped a horde over there) and take care of the warp lightning cannons (which had gone down early). Another important consideration was that, if I left too much of my deployment zone empty, I'd have gutter runners all over me straight away. As it turned out, my opponent had to deploy them either in the middle of the field or off-table. He chose the field. As for my main attack, the plan was to go straight for the head: kill the general, force some break tests and watch the skaven army fall apart. To this end, Seredain, Caradath and the silver helms went right opposite the skaven lord and BSB, with spears and swordmasters on hand to offer support. The white lions went opposite the wood on my right, which would inevitably hold some scouts- they had cloaks so seemed best placed to deal with them. Lecalion went with the archers in the tower. Skaven won the first turn and prepared to throw a disgusting number of sling stones my way.

Skaven Turn 1

All the hordes rush forward to try and overwhelm my tiny tiny army, heralded by the gutter runners. Then all the shooting happens. My opponent rolls very well for all his multiple shots but, even so, the results are hard to bear. Two princes fall from their horses, the eagle takes so many wounds that it basically explodes and the chariot can't make a single 5+ save to protect it from 4 successful to-wound rolls. Arse. The silver lining is that the white lions shrug off all the stones hitting them. The warp lighting cannons both focussed on the tower, since they could knock out a repeater and get 2d6 hits on the archers to force a panic test on my archmage (I'd stacked my shooters and mage up like this deliberately to discourage the cannons from shooting my knights - losing a repeater was a risk worth taking, I figured). One repeater was smashed to bits and the tower archers lost maybe 3 or 4 elves, one WLC having missed the building altogether with a long overshoot. A couple of clanrats were frazzled by the doomwheel.

Image

High Elves Turn 1

The princes charge some gutter runners, who stand and shoot but can't get past the armour. White lions charge the gutter runners in the forest and likewise shrug off a hail of stones. The swordmasters move up to cover their flank and ask some questions of the skaven infantry, while the silver helms move into charge-range of the skaven warlord-horde. The spearelves move up slightly to cover their flank.

Magic saw me generate 8 power dice (the Banner giving me 1) against 4 dispel dice. Lecalion, who'd vacated the tower and parked himself with the spearelves, throw up toughness on the swordmasters (now all my attacking units were resistant to missiles) and Dwellers on the nearest gutter runner unit. My opponent can't dispel anything and about half of the runners were destroyed but the remainder passed their panic test.

Shooting. To the left, all my archers opened up on the far-left runners, killing 4 but failing to panic them (damn). The remaining bolt thrower thudded a single bolt into the doomwheel and took 3 wounds off it - not bad.

Combat. The princes stomp all over their gutter runners and break them, but they get away. The white lions also do bloody work on their runners, but the ratmen are stubborn in the woods and hold.

Image

Skaven Turn 2

The skaven warlord, staring my prince in the face, gets cold feat and decides to hold back slightly while the two hordes to either side, clanrats-with-hero and plague monks, advance to cover him. The gutter runners sat infront of my knights and swordmasters figure they're only going to act as a bridge, so scarper out of the way toward the tower. On my left flank, the princes' runners rally and their fellows run through open ground toward my fire-base around the tower.

Shooting. The sling stones of outrageous fortune find they've drained a little of their luck from Turn 1, failing to kill more than a couple of archers and failing to take out the repeater, who takes only 1 wound from 4 successful hits (about right). The warp lighting cannons are the really worry, however. One blasts a line right through my spear column (again I kept it in this formation to provide a tempting target), killing 6. The other doesn't take the bait, however, and draws a line through my prince. For the first time I fail a Look Out Sir save and I can only take more painkillers as my prince is blasted from his horse. This is bad. Shit.

Image

High Elves Turn 2

Despite the loss of their general, there's no altering the plan now: the High Elves launch themselves into the heart of the skaven army. Swordmasters and silver helms charge the skaven hero-horde next to the wood, eager to avenge their lord (he'll be alright: the best reason to take a Life Archmage is that you have a good medic on hand when someone's arm gets blasted off ;)). The princes re-charge their gutter runners again, aiming to finish the job. The spears more-or-less stay where they are, ready to hold the plague monks in place while my killers go to work. Lecalion moves out of the spears, as far to the right as possible and taking shelter from the WLC's by hiding behind my units.

Magic. The Banner only gives me 1 dice so I get 8 against 4. That's more than I need, however. Toughness goes back up on the swordmasters and Dwellers goes off on the warlord clanrats, killing 22 rats (woohoo!) but leaving the warlord and BSB unscathed (damn). Dwellers causes a miscast but I've used all my dice so the resulting drain has no effect. The archmage takes a wound, however.

Shooting is pretty mundane. My repeater can't repeat (geddit?) the feat of wounding the doomwheel, but my archers manage to successfully plug a few more gutter runners.

Combat, and my silver helms and swordmasters absolutely go to town on the clanrat horde. Caradath challenges out the skaven hero and cuts him to pieces while his fellow elves devastate the ranks of rat spears. They can't put any wounds on the heavy knights and only manage 2 on the T5 swords, meaning I have 2 full ranks, break steadfast and run them down like rats. The swords move into the flank arc of the warlord/BSB clanrats while the knights plough right into their front. To the right, the white lions make a mess of their runners, who finally break but get away (I've lost 3 lions to combat by this point). On the left flank the princes successfully run down their runners and gallop on toward the corner wood.

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Skaven Turn 3

The gutter runners close to the tower charge my repeater and the plague monks annoyingly make a long charge into the spearelves, who hold. The third rat horde continues to make its way across the battlefield to come to the warlord's aid. The doomwheel trundles along not very fast. I think something goes wrong with it (maybe a lightning cannon misfire?) but I can't quite remember what.

Something definitely goes wrong with one of the warp lightning cannons, however, which blows itself to pieces. The other rolls poorly for strength and fails to do anything useful. The gutter runners of outrageous fortune strike again, however, wiping a whole rank from my flanking archers. They pass their panic test, but are now in real trouble.

Combat sees me discover that the plague months are carrying a banner which allows them to re-roll missed hits and missed wounds. They absolutely tear into the spears, break steadfast (the warp lighting shot from earlier made the difference here) and run them down. I make a mental note that this banner exists and resolve to either divert the monks in future or hit them with heavy armour. The combat in the centre sees Caradath throw 2 wounds on the skaven warlord, who fluffs his rolls to hit and only manages one wound in reply. The silver helms, meanwhile, sweep away the best part of a rank of clanrats and lose none of their own. The rats have only one rank left and can't hold even with their BSB. They break and (frustratingly) get away.

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High Elves Turn 3

The silver helms run down the fleeing warlord and his rats, reforming to face back into the field, while the elite infantry forms a new battleline on the right flank to face out against the last clanrat horde and the plague monks. Lecalion joins the lions. The princes march around the wood and within easy charge-reach of the warp lightning cannon.

Magic sees me get 2 extra dice from the Banner and throw toughness back on the swords and regrowth on the lions, raising them back to full strength. There's nothing my opponent can do- his dispel rolls are poor.

Shooting is a bit hazy to me. I think my tower archers shoot at the doomwheel and kill it: either that or it somehow blew itself up next turn. I can't remember what happened to it, exactly, but it didn't play a part in the rest of the game (the map has it moving next turn and blowing up, but actually I can't remember it getting that far, so I think that's wrong). My remaining flanking archers, only 7, fail to kill a single gutter runner from the unit closing them down fast.

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Skaven Turn 4

The last clanrat horde makes a long charge into the swordmasters (with gutter runners in support on the flank) and the other gutter runners make their charges: the large unit charging the flanking archers and the small unit assaulting the tower. The plague monks swing round and move toward the white lions.

The warp lightning cannon thought long and hard about shooting the princes and forcing a panic test to save itself. In the end, though, it tried its luck at picking off the archmage stood in the white lions. All for nothing - the shot was strength 2 and couldn't wound anything, the archmage passing his LOS save in any event.

In combat the large runners completely wipe out my flanking archers, but the small unit has worse luck and is easily pushed back from the tower and brought down to one rat. The clanrats' hero challenges out the bladelord, who fluffs it and is killed. The swordmasters clear a rank of rats and wipe out the gutter runners, however, and are completely protected by their stone flesh. The clanrats lose but are steadfast and hold.

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High Elves Turn 4

The princes charge the WLC while the silver helms gallop at full speed toward the rear of the clanrat horde fighting the swordmasters. The white lions move up to cover the swords' flank against a charge from the plague monks. Lecalion leaves the lions and stands near the swordmasters.

Magic sees me get the full 12 dice (the Banner giving me 2) to my opponent's 5 dispel dice. I chuck 6 dice at Flesh to Stone on the white lions, which my opponent lets through. I then throw 6 dice at a long-range Dwellers against the plague monks, who melt to half strength (or just over) when my opponent fails to dispel - with the difference of D6+4 he just can't deal with my magic phase.

In combat the swords bring the skaven hero down and kill a bunch more rats. They only lose 3 of their number in reply but the steadfast skaven (barely) hold again. The princes easily smash aside the crew of the warp lighting cannon and overrun into the centre of the field along the skaven table edge.

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Skaven Turn 5

The plague monks charge the white lions and the large runners assault the archers in the tower. Shooting is all done so it's straight to combat and the High Elf troops really show their quality. Before their enemies have a chance to strike the white lions rip the heart out of the plague monks' formation and, without the sheer mass of attacks granted by their formation at full strength, the monks can't reply in kind even with their re-roll banner. Flesh to Stone seals the deal, the plague monks easily break and are run down. The swordmasters continue to tear into the clanrats, though the rats hold their own and manage to stand. With the silver helms galloping to their rear, however, they're doomed. Presumably because they can see the enemy army dissolving, the archers in the tower fight hard and hold their position.

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High Elves Turn 5

Caradath and the silver helms crash home into the rear of the clanrats to bring them swift death. The white lions advance towards the tower to get within charge range of the gutter runners assaulting it, Lecalion moving up behind them to get within Awakening range of the last gutter runner from the nearest unit. The princes also hasten toward the tower over the open ground in the centre of the field.

In the magic phase Lecalion duly blasts the lone gutter runner with Awakening to claim the points for the unit. The archers in the tower open up on the last skaven gutter runners but, exhausted and with only 4 models left, they can't find the mark.

Combat goes as expected and the swordmasters and silver helms devastate the remaining clanrats. With only some gutter runners on the field (and within charge range next turn of some vengeful white lions), my opponent concedes and the game is over.

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Victory to the High Elves!


Battle Review- High Elves vs Skaven

Well, technically it all went like clockwork: I deployed my best units together having used some tricky deployment to get my opponent to throw down a horde and the doomwheel onto the wrong part of the field, combined my best fighters together and unleashed a storm which skaven infantry are just ill-equipped to handle. My opponent's fighting characters, designed to provide some killing power to the hordes, were not able to counter the amount of damage I was throwing down. My opponent's hordes, meanwhile, were not large enough to handle the amount of damage I was able to cause in a single round of combat, even when I'd lost my chariot and my prince. They're cheap enough - skaven players may as well field their hordes in units of 50 strong to give them a chance of holding on the steadfast. As it was, having their general and BSB nearby wasn't enough to hold the rats in place and, once I'd steamrolled that first horde and overrun into the warlord's unit, the skaven were in trouble. Even if I hadn't got Dwellers off on that unit, the swordmasters were ready to flank next turn and, with the knights, would torn the rats up in any event. My opponent counted on being able to grind me down with steadfast infantry units but in hordes of 40 they just weren't able to cut it.

Plague Monks and the Plague Banner

The great exception to this were the plague monks. When I saw them go down without a furnace, I didn't think much of them. A steadfast spear-column would hold them in place while my knights and elites tore through the clanrats. That banner they were carrying was a real revelation, however, and isn't something I'll forget. My opponent never told me the name of it (I will say, briefly, that he wasn't pleasant to play against- lots of winging extra inches out of skirmisher movement, rolling dice without saying what for, rules lawyering (often without knowing the rules)- it was quite an exhausting game), but I intend to find out and will assume that, wherever I see a horde of plague monks, they will be carrying this flag. Losing my spears was definitely a downer.

In future, if I can't redirect them, I'd maybe just throw a tank infront of those monks (Caradath would be perfect since, without the furnace, they can't handle armour) and use the spear column to break steadfast alongside some elites.

Edit: Lord Anubis (below) has cleared up the mystery of the flag: it's the Plague Banner - only one use only but watch out for it!

Magic

Maybe the biggest single difference between the lists was in the magic phase, though. Even if my opponent had brought a cheap caster with a scroll he would've made life harder for me but, as things were, I could drastically alter any combat in my favour by either toughening my units or using Dwellers below to melt a horde into inefficiency. In one turn I was able to secure the doom of 2 hordes by casting Flesh to Stone on the swordmasters (which proved the key to breaking steadfast on the first clanrat horde), and Dwellers on the warlord clanrats, which allowed my helms to overrun and single-handedly run that unit down despite the two fighting characters stood with it. Dwellers likewise ensured the doom of the plague monks, who had no chance against T5 white lions when only fighting in a single rank (as they were after the lions' attacks). Magic was an absolute game winner.

Shooting

My opponent was remiss in not bringing at least some magic defence, but his shooting phase was very scary. 120 sling stones flew at my army during the first turn, with tremendous effect, and the warp lighting cannons made me very nervous even before they knocked my prince out. This is the first battle I've fought where I really wasn't able to use my shooting to take out enemy harassment or swing the big combats (magic had to step up here). Instead my shooting base spent the whole game trying to just hang on for dear life. Skaven gutter runners are elite units: if you see them in quantity, it may be sensible to change up your game plan. In hindsight, since I wasn't able to count on my support elements surviving long enough to dictate the movement phase (I had nothing to redirect those plague months, so I lost the spearelves), in future I'd maybe deploy more of my forces together, so that my archers can provide more support if my eagle and chariot both snuff it.

As for losing the prince... Well that sucked hard, but you just have to take strokes of bad luck like that on the chin and keep going. You will fail 2+ rolls occasionally! In any case, Caradath did an excellent job of picking up the slack: in fact my silver helms and both units of elites really showed their quality.

An interesting game, then, if not exactly a typical (or especially enjoyable!) one. Next up are the Warriors of Chaos, who I should be getting a game against at some point within the next 10 days. My mines have been kinder to me this turn and, although one of the two I built collapsed (argh!), I have a mighty 220 points to spend on expanding my forces. Not sure how much I should spend at this stage but I think we're looking at least at getting the Banner of Sorcery back in and an extra eagle...

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Hey Seredain,

I've been enjoying your thread immensely despite not playing High Elves (or Warhammer at all right now), so it is good to see you back and posting again.

Anyway, I read your battle report agains the Skaven with interest. But I am a little confused. There is a Skaven banner that gives Plague Monks the ability to reroll failed hits and wounds - The Plague Banner. But is is a one use item and only affects that phase, not to mention that it only costs 30 points. Is there another magic banner that has a similar effect?

I just thought I should mention it. Good luck with the next game.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:48 pm 
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Hi Anubis,

I'm not at all surprised to hear that - my opponent was not particularly cool. He didn't know the rules very well and, in the absence of knowing rules, tried to make them up in his favour. Exhausting. In this instance, he allowed himself to use that banner during the first round of every combat. Other players at the games club call him "Cheaty ____" and several refuse to play him. This sort of thing is, I suppose, the reason.

Anyway, thank you for clearing that up! I'll edit the report and remember for next time...

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Glad to see you're back! Good to know it was nothing serious but only real life stuff keeping you away ;)

As for the battle - it was a good read. While your opponent might not have been the most honest of people, he was definitely not very clever. Neither his list nor his tactics played very well here. Still, between killing off your Prince and routing your Spearelves he did manage to make your job a little harder. How do you feel the general skill level of your fellow players are? Do you feel that you often dominate the various aspects of the game (as it seems you did here) or do you often meet people who are equally good as you, or better?

While you've been away I've tried my best to keep the Cavalry Prince approach busy (5 games now at 2500 points). I have 3 games lined up in the next 2 days as well. At the moment I'm trying out a somewhat different magical approach, come Tuesday I'll decide whether to stick with lore of Life or alter my army to capitalize on other strengths.

When's your next game and what race are you facing?

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