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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 am 
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Green Istari

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Yeah, if it was classed as 'heavy armour' or some such then it would replace mundane armour. But magic helms stack on top.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:33 am 
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

SpellArcher wrote:
'The standard of the High Elves -blazing furiously in the sunlight.'

Epic stuff!

Tiralya wrote:
I loved the little fluffy bit, and they way it worked in the game was priceless, well played Sir.

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:
Excellent game! I loved the fluffy bits too. Aenarion couldn't have done better. ;)

Cheers boys! The BSB came good, eh? Steadfast on LD7 isn't the same as unbreakable...


Battle Review - High Elves vs Warriors of Chaos

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
This is a very good example of how flexible your army is and one of the aspects I tried to use when I played with it. Your characters can dart from the unit any time and if you only remember to position the unit properly, they have a lot of opportunities to be useful with or without their bodyguards. The situation on the board changed and your units cannot make a combined charge? No worries, you can go with more individual hunt and earn some points too.

Thanks, Swordmaster.

In general terms, I think this latest report is a really good example of the flexibility of cavalry characters. We typically tend to look upon our characters as unit upgrades: effectively buff spells which can't be dispelled (but which can, annoyingly, take a cannonball to the face). This battle was a nice reminder that every character you pick is an individual unit who can do what he wants. It just so happens that, mounted on a horse, your character will be able to run individual duties much more effectively than a footslogger for the best armour save at the least possible price. Oftentimes you'll notice that my characters just stick in their silver helms and run with the bus. Occasionally, however, their ability to run solo at speed can win games. A few games ago, it pulled back me a win against lizardmen when an untimely Flesh to Stone ground my entire attack to a shuddering halt. And here, we see a single BSB catch me a boatload of points! A lot of credit goes to my combined shooting and magic phase for the dead sorcerer, though. By removing his ward save and having the repeaters on standby, I forced him to flee to cover and had my cavalry there to put his retreating options under serious pressure. As demonstrated here, repeater bolt throwers are as much about board-control as they are about the damage they actually cause.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I am not sure, however, if reforming, thus enabling marauders to move further than their normal movement allowance, counts when they wanted to enter the building. I don't have the book with me at the moment but it does not look clear to me.

I had my eye on this but, since there were a few rules quibbles this game (I only put up the ones I wasn't sure I got right), I didn't bother to fret about it. I think it was ok but, for the record, you're perfectly correct: you can reform into a building so long as no models move more than double their movement in the process of making the reform. It's a good trick to remember, anyway.

In respect of charging out of units (quibble 3)...

Nicene wrote:
I think your opponent certainly has the right of this issue about the solo character charging (whether in a unit or otherwise). According to your diagram, it seems that Seredain would indeed be wheeling (holding his left front corner still) to the left when exiting the unit.

Yes, having re-read the rules, I think this is correct. At the time, I was going by the (deceptive) picture in the rulebook showing the chaos lord charging out of his unit at an angle. The wording, though, says that, if a character charges out of a unit, normal rules for movement resume. I don't have the book on me now, but the wording is that these rules apply as he leaves. As Curu said, then this means that a character will always have to move straight out of the ranks before being free to perform other manoeuvres. Something to bear in mind.

Nicene wrote:
I can't understand the tactics of your opponent. He would have had a chance to do some damage on the east while your DPs were prancing around the building; seems like he should have been pressing forward at full speed. Isn't that what his list is designed to do?

The Tactics of the Chaos Army

Actually it isn't. His list is designed to scare the crap out of you with Gateway, Flickering Fire, Treason and/or a Hellcannon+Pandemonium, and force you into the embrace of all these beefy infantry units. Getting outshot by High Elves and losing his Level 4 just shook him up and he wasn't in a great place when it came to devising a new plan. It will be more interesting to see how it goes the next time we play: I'd be surprised if he wasn't a little more aggressive.

In this game, though, I had the east flank covered. Although they spent four turns shifting into a flanking position, I actually never moved the dragon princes after Turn 1 so that they weren't facing the centre of the board. Even so, I was deployed well back so, if the marauder bus came forward, I wouldn't have had to engage them before Turn 4 and, when it came to it, I had a combination of the two archer units (both capable of close combat kills against these marauders), the dragon princes and the white lions, possibly with another turn of harassment provided by sacrificing the small archers. If the lions had to go into the warriors (and I was moving them up on Turn 4 to do this once my missiles had taken their toll), I had enough to hold the Tzeentch marauders before bringing the lions back into the game. In short, 4 High Elf units with missile power trumps two units of Chaos.

The chosen were the weird thing. Perhaps he was worried about leaving his east flank to be surrounded, but I couldn't understand why he didn't bring them forward. Ultimately, I planned to shove the prince into them and to keep challenging or, failing that, put the robed archmage into their flank and hold with the BSB. Since the prince was busy and the BSB was too far away to provide re-rolls, using the archmage as a roadblock would have been risky so, if I were my opponent, I'd have had those chosen bombing forward as quickly as possible. At the least, this would have forced me to use my eagles to pin them rather than collecting points from dogs and keeping the Khorne marauders facing away from my BSB. Ultimately, though, with the sorceror lord dead, my cavalry characters closing in on the hellcannon and an eagle/robed archmage to hold the chosen at bay (with the BSB nearby), this particular game was going my way. This is my problem with Chosen deathstar lists: if this unit doesn't perform, the army doesn't win unless the Level 4 and the hellcannon take up all the slack. With those weapons neautralised or underperforming, I just don't think the deathstar works.

Furion wrote:
Quote:
a double-shrine Tzeentch chosen unit toting the Eye of the Gods manipulation item and the Terror banner. In this instance, the controlling player (who's actually a really cool guy and excellent player, by the way, though you might hate him for this!), deliberately chooses Eye gifts he already has (using the item), so that he can keep rolling on the Eye table until he gets what he wants (the +1 attack, +1 toughness or ward save). I've literally stood there for 5 minutes and watched him roll these dice. He knows it sucks, but apparently there's no rule against it so he's free to take advantage.


This is done perfectly by the rules. Also, if he would have Mask of EEE he would also be entitled to make the reroll for fear/terror result.

Yeah this is exactly what my opponent had done. I refer to there being a 'Terror Banner' plus an 'Eye of the Gods manipulation item' [Edit: 'Favour of the Gods', SA tells me]. The end result is the same, of course. I'm not too familiar with the names of Chaos items but, in any event, my opponent was packing the full chosen combo.

Shinzou wrote:
Seradin: Question about the A-Mage: Is it possible to take 2 lvl 2s instead? you lose the 4+ on activating spells, but still got +3 to dispell, with this you could potentialy divide your magic between 2 mages. With this you could hopefully get one mage who is more combat-oriented and one that can stay back more, to minimize the risk of losing the whole magicphase early?


Edit: Also this would give you 2 drain magic if this is necessary?

This is a really good question, Shinzou. I hadn't thought about this point until you raised it, but I've been having a good think...

High Magic: One Archmage or Two Level 2s?

For most lores, this is a no brainer: you'll pick the archmage because you need to get the big rolls for the big spells without relying on getting Irresistable Force. However since I've plumped for High Magic, which can function perfectly well for a level 2, replacing the archmage with two of them is a very serious proposition. Primarily, in terms of magic defense, it means the army can get a big boost by taking both the scroll and the annullian crystal - excellent. It also would give me access to two shields to protect my units (or have two goes at protecting one unit), and two drain magics if I wanted to dedicate myself to defense against the more expensive enemy magic phases.

There are a few reasons, however, while I'll keep the archmage. Firstly, the big one: with High Magic, a scroll and +5 to dispel, my magic defense is already very handy indeed. Because the lore brings with it a cheap magic nerf and a Remains in Play spell that your opponent will almost always want to get rid of, enemy magic phases will usually be damaged pretty handily assuming you've had any power dice to play with (and, if you didn't, you have your scroll and +5). This is a lot to be getting on with. Having said that, throwing in the Annullian Crystal on two level 2s makes my defense better, for sure. I get the 2-dice swing and (usefully), if I miss a dispel with one mage, I can still have a +3 bonus and use the scroll later in the phase with mage number 2.

Is it worth, though, improving a capability I already have for what I lose? Firstly, since I don't have the Banner of Sorcery, every power dice matters. A +2 bonus to cast is, on conservative estimates, an extra dice for important casts (or an extra dice for my opponent's dispel roll). Over the course of an entire magic phase (perhaps 3 or 4 casts from High Lore), this makes a difference. Level 2's will not pack the same punch when casting spells. This makes the other things that High Magic is good at, like Vaul's and Arrow Curse and Flames, less effective. Since these spells fit so well in my army (to me, they're more important than a 2nd Shield of Saphery), I'm not too keen to weaken my ability to force them through just for that bit more defense.

Some other things that, for my list, make a difference. Firstly, the cloak. Of course, I can equip a 2nd level 2 with the cloak but, if I do that, the only thing I'd get out of the extra caster would be the chance to cast Shield twice - not enough. Really it's all about the Crystal and, if I'm taking that, I no longer have the ethereal mage to throw infront of monsters and steam tanks. The prince can't be everywhere at once, and my only steadfast block is the spearelves. Having that extra roadblock (or unit to flank something like a shrine for the static res), is invaluable. As discussed earlier, Folariath's Robe also liberates a unit from having to babysit the archmage and jeopardise their own plans. Taking two mages potentially does this to two units - a tactical limitation I'd rather not live with (leaving aside the stress of keeping two mages alive all game).

Lastly, Leadership. It is an inconvenient truth of the cavalry prince list that, at some stage, your hard-charging knights will put themselves more than 12" away from an important infantry unit. I'm pretty good at mitigating this: the white lions are protected by their item choice and you'll notice now that my spears and swordmasters - who lack leadership protection - will often run near my knights during the initial advance. Deployment and movement options need to be flexible, however, and with that in mind, giving one of my units a LD9 upgrade is a nice safety net.

List Edit - The Other Trickster's Shard

Lastly, I mentioned during the report that I needed to get the Other Trickster's Shard in. This decision has been a long time coming, but it took me having to hack my way through an 'ol' boots' warshine to feel that, when they get good dice, units with ward saves can be a total pain. As it turns out, the only thing I was worried about (magical attacks), is easily solved by transferring the Amulet of Light onto the swordmasters. This means I don't have the flexibility of being able to deploy the BSB to counter ethereals, but the swordmasters are a good unit for tearing into them (especially the new Wraith models in VC melee units), while I still have the magic weapon in the silver helms and (almost certainly) a magic missile on the archmage. Lastly, and most importantly, the prince now has access to the Shard always and the Talisman when he really needs it, while the BSB also benefits alongside any helms allocating attacks against models in base contact with him. This cavalry unit just took a big step up in terms of killing power against some of the toughest opponents. Here's the latest list:


Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec - 281
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Folariath's Robe, Dispel Scroll - 325
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command - 295
18 Archers - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 223
10 Archers - 110

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Amulet of Light - 237
12 White Lions - Standard, Gleaming Pennant - 197
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points


Oh yeah, the Plucker Pendant's gone again (er... at least I have Shield). Boo! Also, the white lion guardian with the Gem of Courage is replaced by a standard with the Gleaming Pennant. Ostensibly, this was to get the points for the Shard, and there are problems with the cost-cutting. I lose a Str 6 attack and I lose the ability to challenge out huge characters that might stomp all over the lions. On the plus side, the Gleaming Pennant is a better item than the Gem, since you only need to use it once you've failed a test, whereas you have to guess with the Gem and, therefore, pretty much always use it for your first test (when is there a good time to fail a leadership test with white lions?). I also get the extra standard for Blood and Glory. As long as my lions don't keep running into greater daemons, then, I shouldn't miss the guardian too much. All in all, I'm pretty darn happy with the new draft. Bring on the ethereals and ward saves!

Arratak wrote:
Hey where's seradin's most recent and up to date list??

Shinzou wrote:
I think that the list on page 1 isnt the most recent one anymore so 3 or 4 pages back is where I would look.

I've let the contents page slip of late (I'll update it with a major session soon enough), but the 'Latest List' is now up there as per usual. Even if I don't add in all the article links to the contents page (and I'm about 5 pages behind), I'll usually try and keep the 'latest list' entry up to date for ease of reference.

As ever, thanks for reading.

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Last edited by Seredain on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:28 am 
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Green Istari

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I have to say I think the Chosen were too small. Even if he gets the 3+ Ward up and has those characters, it's not invulnerable. Does your opponent just not have more figures Seredain or is there a tactical reason for fielding the unit that size? On the items, Favour of the Gods is a 5 point item he can stick on the unit champ. Nice, eh?

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:36 pm 
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I'm not sure what to make of the unit's size in all - the fact that it's plumb full of characters and upgrades makes it expensive enough to be something of a white elephant if you can keep it out of combat while, if I get the prince into it alone, he stays safe while those Chaos heroes haemorrhage points (and blood, and guts). The chief reason for this unit being the way it is, according to my opponent, is that people will think that, because it's small, it's fragile. Apparently people love charging it, thinking they're going to win but actually just watch it tear their troops apart. It's a honey trap.

Also, I guess my opponent figured that, with the 3+ ward and other bonuses, plus the chracacters, there doesn't need to be a very large unit to kick the crap out of most stuff. With the two heroes, there aren't a huge number of points left over for troopers. They're in their to provide 'leadership bunker' stats to the centre of the infantry line, so the unit does something other than fight. Since fighting what it's best at, though, I'm not sure a static leadership bunker is the best use for it.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:32 am 
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I can see it might be good in some cases but for all-comers I don't trust it. It will not enjoy Dreaded 13th for example. I'm not expert on the optimal size but I'd be tempted to go maybe 20 with no characters. The troops are killy enough IMHO.

Like the look of the new list. Yet another tool in the old locker! When you start counting the troops in the game with Ward saves (Daemons, Bretonnians, Tree Spirits, Dark Elves, Chosen!) it's got to come in handy.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Hi Seredain,

Where can i find your reasoning behind dropping the banner of sorcery?
I went trough the last couple of pages but i cant find it.

thx

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Well played Sir
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It's in the contents page, on p.18

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:40 am 
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BorkBork wrote:
Hi Seredain,

Where can i find your reasoning behind dropping the banner of sorcery?
I went trough the last couple of pages but i cant find it.

thx

BorkBork - this is a good question to raise. I realise that I actually re-lost the Banner a few pages back when I switched to High Magic, and never said why!

As Tiralya says, I do give an account of why I didn't take it back on page 18, but things were slightly different then. I was still running the chariot, for one, so you'll see me compare and contrast the benefits of possessing a pre-existing combat/support unit over more power dice which, in giving perhaps one more spell per turn, can do great things but will not typically make anything happen without the support of an existing unit of troops. And now, although the specifics have changed (I no longer have the chariot), the basic problem remains the same: would I rather have D3 power dice per magic phase, or something for the points which my magic phase can't replicate?

On the Banner of Sorcery

It seems trite to say it but I do constantly find myself dwelling on the fact that the Banner of Sorcery, with the bearer needed to hold it, costs 62 points. That is a big chunk of stuff out of one of my other units. An eagle gone for good, or the best part of a bolt thrower, or Folariath's Robe. The thing is, all of those units buy me something which will always be useful and doesn't need any power dice to work. The 2nd repeater we've spoken of (off and on) throughout this thread, but it's worth reiterating that it provides something of a critical mass of shooting to a phase which might otherwise not seem that scary. Disc sorcerers, as we've seen, have reason to fear it. Because more units are more afraid of the extra shooting, since I went back to two machines (and since I switched to High Magic), I've noticed that, once again, my opponents usually have to make uncomfortable advances toward me rather than sit tight and let me do all the work.

Whether or not the Banner of Sorcery can, in itself, have such an impact upon the game depends upon how many points you've spent elsewhere on your magic phase. Some phases, noticeably the Coven of Light lists as epitomised by Brewmaster D, need this extra power to force their phase through, since a) they have access to more aggressive spells (Banishment, though Dwellers is another good example), and b) they have spent enough points on their magic phase that, if it doesn't perform, they are probably in trouble. My magic phase, by contrast, is only part of the equation- not the point of the army.

The point of the army is to use the interoperability of its different elements. In magical terms, Curse of Arrow Attraction is a good example of this: more power dice is no good if you don't have the shooting to benefit from the spell. Since I run a lot of smallish units, meanwhile, I'm likely to keep the Robe over the Banner since it offers me an anvil capability to tie up big monsters. I am also likely to favour this item to allow my archmage to run solo and release a unit to operate independently- providing the kind of tactical flexibility that, with my spell selection- D3 power dice is unlikely to manage. Likewise, an eagle can achieve things for my army both tangible (roadblocking) and intangible (deployment), which extra power dice cannot.

In summary, The Banner of Sorcery is not a 'must-take' item in an army like mine. Instead, I think that its usefulness increases with the following factors:

1) your spell selection - increasing the number of scenarios you can tackle with magic and therefore its overall utility;
2) the power of those spells - what kind of impact can you make on the game by forcing through that large spell?;
3) the casting values of your lore - do you need extra power to get an effective magic phase?
4) the amount of points you've invested in the magic phase - how important is it that the phase performs for you?;
5) the vulnerability of your forces without magical support - e.g. an army made up of swordmasters and little shooting won't do well against enemy shooting without defensive spells.

So, get in a few 'must cast' spells, another caster and have a few critical vulnerabilities to solve, and the Banner becomes seriously attractive. If, however, your magic phase is a supportive rather than a dominant part of your strategy, you may want to spend those 62 points on something which buys you an extra (non-dispellable) capability which your spells can't replicate. Remember, you get 2d6 power dice per turn for free. If you're going to spend extra points to get extra dice, make sure you're doing it for a reason!

SpellArcher wrote:
I can see it might be good in some cases but for all-comers I don't trust it. It will not enjoy Dreaded 13th for example. I'm not expert on the optimal size but I'd be tempted to go maybe 20 with no characters. The troops are killy enough IMHO.

I think this is right. Chosen are good enough at killing without characters, and more troops brings more wounds to benefit from the mega-ward (honestly, what's going to stand against 3x blessed chosen even without heroes?). i suspect that the real reason for the characters originally was the Leadership bunker to keep other units, especially the hellcannon, in check. But I don't think this is the best use of points either in terms of the fighting potential of the unit as a whole, nor the heroes in particular. Maybe this unit is a case of trying to do too much with one set of models.

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Last edited by Seredain on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:43 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:00 am 
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It is interesting to read your experiences with High Magic on a single lvl 4 caster, since i have been having the same success with this setup as well. The low casting values, while still having solid impacts on the game, combined with the 'jack of all trades' the lore provides makes for a solid setup for a list that fields only 1 caster. Everyone knows that Okkams Mindrazor, Dwellers Below, Pit of Sades, etc are gaming breaking, but i have found that Vuals Unmaking and Flames of the Phoenix can be Just as game breaking, depending on the opponent. Dark Elves arent so scary when they lose sacrificial dagger turn 1-2, and the unkillable dreadlord inst so unkillable once hes lost pennant of khaleth. Infernal Puppet, Hellheart, Cupped Hand of the Old Ones, Talisman of Preservation, Crown of Command, etc, its surprising just how many people rely on their magic items. Then Flames of the Phoenix is just a cup of tea when facing Warriors of Chaos players that are fielding 2 units of 50-60 Marauders of Khorne with Great Weapons (this is now a common setup here). If Flames of the Phoenix goes off once, one of those hordes of marauders go from a serious threat, to easily managed.

Anyways, just wanted express how interesting it is to see someone else has found the amazingness of a lvl 4 High Mage :D


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:34 am 
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There are actually quite a few armies around here that sport High Magic as their main Lore Deroga. Furion's, Swordmaster's and Curu's for example. Furion runs a Lvl4 with a Shadowseer as support. Swordmaster runs a Lvl4 with a Gem BSB (also High). Curu only runs the Lvl2 (as he has a Dragon) but it's surprising how effective it is for him offensively and the +3 to dispel and Crystal give him a very respectable defence.

I run a High Lvl3 and I've tried him both with and without Banner of Sorcery. Seredain's points about the cost and about having 2D6 (plus channelling) PD anyway are good and of course rolling fewer dice means you are less likely to miscast and blow yourself up, helping the AM to hang around longer providing magic defense for the army.

On the balance though my list needs the Banner because it does not have the combat power of Seredain's and hence must try to squeeze more out of the magic phase, even at the expense of other things. With his cavalry bus, RBT, elite infantry etc. Seredain has plenty of threat already and I hazard that to some extent the job of his magic phase is to let those things work more efficiently.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:37 pm 
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I should have said it was nice to see others having success with it as well. I knew you had been running a High mage to good effect, but wasn't aware that it is quite popular :D


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:33 pm 
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In the cold wastes north of the empire, in the harsh lands of chill known as the troll countries a malevolant evil is stirring. Hearing tales of the exploits of a shining prince of the poncy elven kind a twisted ancient evil stirs in its slumber.

Albrikt felt his master stirring. He stepped forward, his armour screeching as fifty years of rust ground against the plates. The mountain shook as below him the great drake started to move. Feeling his blood pumping again the ancient warrior turned to the cave and gathered his masters banner. Raising his standard Albrikt started to walk to the nearby maruader village which housed his chariot.

It took Galrauch little more than a day to complete gathering his horde. tricking Throgg into thinking he lead the expedition was childs play. He called upon ancient pacts binding a pair of Shaggoths to his will and set out south to crush the upstart elf. Somewhere deep in the recess of his split mind the great drake riled against the demons will, promising to undo his plans at the worst moment...

So i've managed to locate where Seredain plays and we are in the process of arranging a game. Rather than have an elf off* I decided to polish off my trolls and go for spectacle factor. so without further preamble:

Galrauch, 616

Throgg the Troll King 175

Albrikt the Exalted, Battle Standard Bearer of the Great Drake, Mark of Tzeentch, Talsiman of Endurance, Dragon Helm, Warriors Bane, Shield, Riding on Chariot 290

17 Chaos Trolls 765

5 Warhounds 30
5 Warhounds 30
5 Warhounds 30

Shaggoth: Great Weapon 285
Shaggoth: 2 Hand Weapons 275

Points: 2496

* elf offs being known to be rather silly affairs involving long pointy hats and hair extensions....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Really curious to see how this plays out... What an odd WoC list... I like it...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Haven't you had enough of Dragons Eldria?

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Deroga wrote:
It is interesting to read your experiences with High Magic on a single lvl 4 caster, since i have been having the same success with this setup as well. The low casting values, while still having solid impacts on the game, combined with the 'jack of all trades' the lore provides makes for a solid setup for a list that fields only 1 caster.

Deroga, this is a lovely synopsis of why I think High Magic is so good.

Enjoying High Magic

Every game, this lore can perform - and for a bargain price. Flames of the Phoenix is an absolute steal for the casting value, with 8th Ed's big units. The fact that it remains in play as well and dents your enemy's phase, is just fantastic. I've gone on about Arrow Attraction a lot, too, but with a couple of repeaters at your side, this little spell can be a killer. Ah, the synergy! Drain Magic deserves an honourable mention. Most enemy armies have spent more on their magic phase than me- being able to hobble it with a combination of Flames and a 1-dice DM cast is always a great help. Oh, and a decent magic missile. Oh, and a guaranteed 5+ ward. And then there's Vaul's...

Deroga wrote:
Dark Elves arent so scary when they lose sacrificial dagger turn 1-2, and the unkillable dreadlord inst so unkillable once hes lost pennant of khaleth. Infernal Puppet, Hellheart, Cupped Hand of the Old Ones, Talisman of Preservation, Crown of Command, etc, its surprising just how many people rely on their magic items.

This spell was my primary reason for switching to High Magic (though the Shield was an important compensation for the lost Lore of Life and it took the extra shooting for the Arrow Curse to finally push me over the edge). It is, as pretty much all the other spells, useful against everyone and, as you say, taking away that serious item can just completely nullify your enemy's plans. What the hell would be the point of the Cavalry Prince without his Giant Blade? How can the unkillable pegasus dreadlord work without the pendant? It's a wonderful spell. And, because they're terrified of losing their buzz item, it's a great spell for drawing dispel dice to accomplish other things. Remember this as a tactical tool: this spell only needs to work once to do its job. For the early part of the game, then, you may want to cast it early on only a few dice, knowing your opponent will use up his dispel dice and let through your damage spells. Later, you can chuck more dice at it and get it through.

Deroga wrote:
Anyways, just wanted express how interesting it is to see someone else has found the amazingness of a lvl 4 High Mage :D

So far, I'm loving it. I'm not saying there won't be times that I don't want T7 regrowing swordmasters (there certainly will be), but High Magic benefits so many more facets of my army than just the elites that it's hard to pass up, especially for the bargain casting values. An excellent lore for single-caster armies, especially when you've got no Banner.

SpellArcher wrote:
On the balance though my list needs the Banner because it does not have the combat power of Seredain's and hence must try to squeeze more out of the magic phase, even at the expense of other things. With his cavalry bus, RBT, elite infantry etc. Seredain has plenty of threat already and I hazard that to some extent the job of his magic phase is to let those things work more efficiently.

SA you put it very well - that is exactly how I see my magic phase working. You'll remember that I originally chose Life over other lores for two reasons: miscast protection for my single caster, and synergy with the vulnerable elite infantry. That was it. Dwellers is an excellent spell but, whenever it became the focus of my strategy (very hard to resist), my phase often didn't serve me as well. In any event, even back then I didn't take Dwellers for character-killing: I wanted it for horde-melting to bring big infantry units down to strength for my smaller elites - something Flames does for (much) cheaper whilst remaining in play. Synergy, not spell power, is the thing and I think overall High Magic just does it better (Flesh to Stone aside).

Eldria wrote:
Galrauch, 616

Throgg the Troll King 175

Albrikt the Exalted, Battle Standard Bearer of the Great Drake, Mark of Tzeentch, Talsiman of Endurance, Dragon Helm, Warriors Bane, Shield, Riding on Chariot 290

17 Chaos Trolls 765

5 Warhounds 30
5 Warhounds 30
5 Warhounds 30

Shaggoth: Great Weapon 285
Shaggoth: 2 Hand Weapons 275

Points: 2496

* elf offs being known to be rather silly affairs involving long pointy hats and hair extensions....

Jeesus, Eldria! Someone had their wheaties this morning.

Well, it's pretty much filled with heavy armour bogeymen. Armour-piercing vomming trolls are one of the game's best anti-cavalry weapons, and Throgg obviously makes things much worse. I know little of Galrauch, though I know he has two breath weapons (bad for helms, good for dragon princes) and that his stats are pretty good. If he's T6 (and I think he is), I reckon I can take him. T7 would be more of a pain. The fact that he's a sorcerer too (what's his level?), gives you a magic phase, but obviously that's not what the army is about, and you have no scroll, so I'm hoping to benefit from having the edge there.

Playing this list will be a question of using my medium advantages in many areas (deployment, magic, shooting), to chip away at an army with a massive advantage in one (brute force). A M6 funbus with a special character dragon should certainly be a challenge! Looking forward to it...

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Last edited by Seredain on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:23 am 
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You really should read up on Galrauch because his T does not matter. Trust me, you do not want to engage him with your prince... I do believe he is a level 4 wizard with some unique rules, after all a character worth over 600 points should be pretty good!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:47 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
You really should read up on Galrauch because his T does not matter. Trust me, you do not want to engage him with your prince...

Darn right I don't! Not unless he's full of bolts/swords/axes/lances already and I can reliably kill him in one round. A little bird has told me of the breath of change - T test or death with no dragon armour save, so that's a bitch. The T6 matters, though, because it means I can hurt him with repeaters on a 4+. Not enough to kill him, perhaps, but enough to grind him down pre-combat.

By the way, does Galrauch count as a character or a monster?


Edit: I did a little online research and discovered he's a lord choice (so I guess Throgg must be a hero). 3 breath weapons, all armour piercing (one Str4 -1 armour save, one Str2 -3 armour save, one Toughness test or death), Level 4 Tzeentch loremaster. So obviously another anti-armour choice alongside all the trolls. I actually also just found this nice little quote from a Chaos player over on Librarium:

Quote:
galrich in 8th edition is one of our best special characters. Hits like a dragon, breaths like 3 dragons and has loremaster tzeench? quite a good combination for the points. He will work well against some armies more than others (rapes high elves for breakfast)...

Haha! So there's the rub. I suspect this and a Throgg troll horde will be an interesting proposition. Eldria, you weren't by any chance trying to build an anti-high-elf-cavalry army, were you..? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:46 am 
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Pretty sure he's a character and a monster.

Of coure he lacks his 5+ Ward save from being ridden...

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:21 pm 
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At least there are no warshrines in that army.

If you think Galrauch is tough normally, try facing him with a 3+ ward save.

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Seredain wrote:

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
Eldria wrote:

Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Poor Galrauch. That's kind of where I stand on this one.

He's in an army with ridiculously few drops, making his deployment very easy to counter.

He's got a serious case of conflicting interests - wait around too long for a combo charge or a good spot to breathe, and he's going to get pelted by bolts. Move in too quickly, and he's got a cavalry bus with boatloads of high strength attacks that bash through his scaly skin and render his 6+ ward meaningless.

Remember, at the end of the day, this guys is 600+ points, with only T6, 6 wounds and a 6+ ward. He packs a mean punch, and Eldria has designed a list with plenty of target saturation, but at the end of the day when you've got that many points in one spot that happens to be both a combat monster, artillery and your primary caster all in one, he tends to attract quite a bit more attention than he has survivability.

Having said that, he's also the reason I switched from my original magic setup to the coven of light - this guy taught me a hard lesson about not having an answer to mobile threats!

D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:15 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Haven't you had enough of Dragons Eldria?

:)


Never! Ever, ever, ever!

I love dragons and always will!

Seredain wrote:
Jeesus, Eldria! Someone had their wheaties this morning.


Rawwwwr!

Seredain wrote:
Haha! So there's the rub. I suspect this and a Throgg troll horde will be an interesting proposition. Eldria, you weren't by any chance trying to build an anti-high-elf-cavalry army, were you..? :)


As it happens no this is my 'fun' army. (Compared to the High Elves/Demons) I take it to every Throne of skulls in whatever guise points allow and while I love Galrauch my level 4 disc wizard is much much more power-dull. The big G gets out every limited chance he gets.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Poor Galrauch. That's kind of where I stand on this one.


He is not quite a unsupported as it may at first appear, but we will have to wait for the game to occur for me to display my true evil!

Unfortunate circumstances dictacte is it likely not to happen until April now :(

Yup Galrauch is a lord and Throgg a hero.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Brewmaster_D wrote:
Move in too quickly, and he's got a cavalry bus with boatloads of high strength attacks that bash through his scaly skin and render his 6+ ward meaningless.
Eldria wrote:
Yup Galrauch is a lord and Throgg a hero.

If Galrauch is a lord choice, doesn't that mean he can fight in challenges and therefore hide from a whole unit's worth of attacks? And on that note, I'm guessing that no character of mine would get a LOS save from his breath weapons when used in combat as part of a challenge?

Brewmaster_D wrote:
He's got a serious case of conflicting interests - wait around too long for a combo charge or a good spot to breathe, and he's going to get pelted by bolts... Remember, at the end of the day, this guys is 600+ points, with only T6, 6 wounds and a 6+ ward. He packs a mean punch, and Eldria has designed a list with plenty of target saturation, but at the end of the day when you've got that many points in one spot that happens to be both a combat monster, artillery and your primary caster all in one, he tends to attract quite a bit more attention than he has survivability.

This is a good point and something to cheer the heart, for sure. It's easy to think of models like this running rampant - in any single situation I imagine him in, he's extremely powerful, but he can only be in certain places doing certain things at any one time, and he can only breathe once. Also, if he's able to magic me, I'm almost certainly able to shoot him.

Brewmaster_D wrote:
Having said that, he's also the reason I switched from my original magic setup to the coven of light - this guy taught me a hard lesson about not having an answer to mobile threats!

A big reason I switched back to two repeaters. If you have inferior ranged ability, it forces you to do uncomfortable things with your movement. I don't like it!

Eldria wrote:
He is not quite a unsupported as it may at first appear, but we will have to wait for the game to occur for me to display my true evil!

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.

Eldria wrote:
Unfortunate circumstances dictacte is it likely not to happen until April now :(

Being a trainee solicitor can be a pain. Al Pacino doesn't take days off...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:32 pm 
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If you can shoot three wounds off him Seredain your Prince has a good shot at killing him with Loec before he can breathe in combat.

Are we actually witnessing (rather civilized) slap talk on Ulthuan?

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Brewmaster_D wrote:
Move in too quickly, and he's got a cavalry bus with boatloads of high strength attacks that bash through his scaly skin and render his 6+ ward meaningless.
Eldria wrote:
Yup Galrauch is a lord and Throgg a hero.

If Galrauch is a lord choice, doesn't that mean he can fight in challenges and therefore hide from a whole unit's worth of attacks? And on that note, I'm guessing that no character of mine would get a LOS save from his breath weapons when used in combat as part of a challenge?


As a Choas character not only can Galrauch fight in challenges he must challenge and must accept. Same with Throgg and the Battle Standard. Sadly the Shaggoths are not characters and can not challenge at all :(

Your entirely correct about no LOS, if someone breath attacks you in a challenge your taking them all on the chin i'm afraid.

Quote:
Q: If a model with a Breath Weapon, Stomp or Thunderstomp is in
a challenge, can these attacks hit models not in the challenge?(p102)
A: No.


From the corebook faq version on page 9.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920636a_FAQ_Warhammer_Rulebook__V1_5.pdf

Seredain wrote:
Brewmaster_D wrote:
He's got a serious case of conflicting interests - wait around too long for a combo charge or a good spot to breathe, and he's going to get pelted by bolts... Remember, at the end of the day, this guys is 600+ points, with only T6, 6 wounds and a 6+ ward. He packs a mean punch, and Eldria has designed a list with plenty of target saturation, but at the end of the day when you've got that many points in one spot that happens to be both a combat monster, artillery and your primary caster all in one, he tends to attract quite a bit more attention than he has survivability.

This is a good point and something to cheer the heart, for sure. It's easy to think of models like this running rampant - in any single situation I imagine him in, he's extremely powerful, but he can only be in certain places doing certain things at any one time, and he can only breathe once. Also, if he's able to magic me, I'm almost certainly able to shoot him.


Too true, you have plenty of things he does not want to fighting. Chances are i'll take extreme lengths to keep him away from Seredain and content myself munching on archers/bolt throwers. You never know though I might get crazy if I see a good chance...

Seredain wrote:
Brewmaster_D wrote:
Having said that, he's also the reason I switched from my original magic setup to the coven of light - this guy taught me a hard lesson about not having an answer to mobile threats!

A big reason I switched back to two repeaters. If you have inferior ranged ability, it forces you to do uncomfortable things with your movement. I don't like it!


Uncomfortable? Only if your plan doesn't start at "CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" People shooting when you plan to rush over and eat things rarely changes that initial plan

Seredain wrote:
Eldria wrote:
He is not quite a unsupported as it may at first appear, but we will have to wait for the game to occur for me to display my true evil!

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.


Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head

Seredain wrote:
Eldria wrote:
Unfortunate circumstances dictacte is it likely not to happen until April now :(

Being a trainee solicitor can be a pain. Al Pacino doesn't take days off...


Indeed not!

spellarcher wrote:
Are we actually witnessing (rather civilized) slap talk on Ulthuan?


Well of course, and it has to be cvilised. This is Ulthuan after all.

I believe that my big beasties will chow down happily on the sparkly elves of seredain, and they will not mind in the least that the elves are likely to slightly vomitty at that point ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Seredain wrote:

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
Eldria wrote:

Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


Sigged! :lol:

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Seredain wrote:

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
Eldria wrote:

Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Eldria wrote:
Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head

Excellent plan! Seredain won't know what's hit him!

But what will the trolls do?

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Driving back from Throne of Skulls (a 140 player event) which I won! With a 2000 point Troll army.

Suddenly my fun army seems a bit good... Weeeee!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Fantastic!

:)

Be afraid Seredain, be very afraid...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:20 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Eldria wrote:
Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head

Excellent plan! Seredain won't know what's hit him!

But what will the trolls do?

:)

Hah! Eldria if you vomit on me I will be miffed.

I'm wise to the danger of extra-headed trolls. A useful mantra for fighting chaos trolls is "hit them with everything or don't bother, unless it's on fire". This is true of the packs of 6 or so that I've come across in my travels, so I'm bloody convinced it'll be true of 17 trolls led by Throgg. Yes indeed.

Eldria wrote:
Driving back from Throne of Skulls (a 140 player event) which I won! With a 2000 point Troll army.

Suddenly my fun army seems a bit good... Weeeee!

All the more glory for me!

Seriously mate, well done- that's a great result! I can see why your trollstar army would do well in 8th (the fact that you take it for fun is just a bonus) - just so many big blocks for them to munch on and, as core choices, with good leadership and stupidity nullified, they're an absolute steal for the points. Normally I like fighting deathstar lists - I outdeploy and outmanoeuvre them. These armies tend to have M4 deathstars, though. In this instance, all your units are both fast and tough, and all of the major units have either stomp, impact hits or thunderstomp. These traits combined are very bad not just for infantry-heavy 8th Ed lists, but MSUish elven armies like mine (we hate all forms of auto-hits) - especially where my typical advantage in heavy armour is nullified by vomit and breath weapons. The fact that my horses are slower than your dragon is just another pain, though slightly made up for by the fact that no model is fast as a shower of arrows. :) That is unless one of your tricks is to hide the dragon behind larger shaggoth models!

You obviously know what you're doing, Eldria, so I think this particular army, depending on luck of course, is going to be a real challenge. For sure, if I let all your units get in amongst my forces at or near the same time, I'm likely to be torn to pieces. Hopefully, I can overcome you with layered defence and pick you apart in sections. A tough call when all the sections are at least T5 or regenerating, but probably my best shot. I won't be any more specific than that, lest I blow my game plan, but I'll draft a battle-plan before the game for posting once we've played. I'm quite curious if the game turns out anything like I've planned...

Looking forward!

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Last edited by Seredain on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Congratulations, Eldria! Please, share a little bit more of your glory and write some kind of report too :)

Since you are going to play your game a little later than previously planned it gives me a little time to try and do some theoretical about the possible approaches. Now, where is my crystal ball ... :)

I must admit I am really looking forward to this game, so hire some scribes and paparazzi to have enough material for battle report :)

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