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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Southern Sentinel
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Hi Seredain!

It seems to me you are going for more defensive, counter-charge approach now. Any particular reason for that? :)

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Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Hey Seredain!

First off, let me say thanks for all of the effort you put into maintaining this thread, and diligently answering any questions that come your way. This is my first time posting in your thread, but it certainly isn't due to lack of interest. It's been more a result of not really having anything meaningful to add to it until now.

Having said that, I'm very interested in your recent change to a Forliath's Robes Archmage. Your breakdown, I feel, highlighted very well the strengths of the item. I've been running various renditions of this style of Archmage for the better part of a year now, so I'd like to share with you some of my experiences.

Positioning

A few things here. First and foremost, I rarely run both the Robes and the Talisman of Saphery for a couple reasons. Truly nasty combat characters just don't seem to be very prevalent in this edition of Warhammer (with the exception of your own :P), making the Talisman situational at best. With that in mind, using a bit of foresight, it's easy enough to position your archmage so that he avoids enemy characters, limiting the attacks on him to mundane rank and file attacks. If you're running high, you have the additional advantage of rendering combat character's weapons mundane through Vaul's unmaking.

On the flip side of things, while the robes open up lots of possibilities with regards to which units the archmage can go in, remember that without life miscast protection, miscasts in our elites can be truly catastrophic. This furthers the argument to keep the mage on the corner of the unit; it minimizes the template damage should it occur.

Weaknesses

It's fun to think about an archmage wheeling around the field without a care in the world, but remember that he's not without risks. If you choose to leave a unit, remember that even the game's worst magic missiles become a very real threat to you. Nothing adds insult to injury more than losing a 325 point model to D6 S4 hits.

Additionally, with the Archmage moving up to the front lines, you'll find that death magic sniping spells become more of a risk. These are mostly short range, so you end up doing your opponent a favour by keeping him at the forefront. Having said that, there's nothing saying that just because he *can* be on the front lines, doesn't mean he *should* be on the front lines in every given situation.

Finally, watch out for those feedback scrolls!

Synergy with lores

I believe that the robes are one of the strongest magic items around not because of what they can do individually, but because of what they can do in unison with the spells we have access to. In my own list, I pair it with the lore of light, which has powerful but typically close range buffs. Since my Archmage is up in my battle lines, I can circumvent the range weakness without risking his life. The lore and the magic item are mutually beneficial.

The lore of life also pairs very well with the robes, turning Earthblood into a very potent spell. Since the archmage isn't relying on it for his own survivability, you can toss few dice at it to draw out enemy dispel dice. I found that in many cases, the enemy would let it slip through, fearing the larger effect spells in the lore. The robes also afford the Archmage the opportunity to safely get within that 12" range for the low cost dwellers, and the lore allows the archmage miscast protection for when he's in those expensive elites.


So with that in mind, a few questions for you Seredain:

1. Given your equipment change on your Archmage, and the long(ish) ranges on most of the High Magic spells, do you think High Magic is still the right choice of lores, over your traditional choice of life?

2. I view High Magic and Light Magic as being very close to each other in overall utility. Now that your Archmage can function in a more central location, have you considered what Light could potentially bring to the table? (Yeah I know, shut up about the lore of light, D :P)

3. If you were to change the lores to something other than High, would your shooting setup change with the loss of Curse of Arrow attraction?


I think it goes without saying that I love the list, and I know it will function well as is. I just think that since you're trying out the robes, there's other lores that will get more mileage out of them than High Magic, despite High being a strong, high utility, easy to cast lore.

Looking forward to seeing how the recent changes pan out on the battlefield!

D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Brewmaster! I suckered you in at last...

I'm in the middle of catching up on your Light Coven batreps, coincidentally. Wonderful reports. Strength 7 banishment is just fiendish...

Folariath's Robe - let's not get cocky...

Good tips on the Robe. Thanks in particular for your point about freewheeling the archmage. It's too easy to think that you don't need to follow the rules just because you're packing ethereal on your caster. 1 charge from fast enemy troops and 1 unlucky leadership test, and your 325 point model is getting run over by dark riders. For sure, careful play (like keeping him within 12" of the prince or out of charge ranges), is still required.

As for enemy spells, it's a useful game mechanic that you know what spells your opponent has at the beginning of the game. Honestly, if you get your archmage, who doesn't need line of sight for most of his spells, fireballed in the face (or killed by anything needing line of sight), you've been foolish. Death magic is a more interesting challenge but, ultimately, a Robe archmage can much more easily stay out of range because his protection means he isn't bound to a unit. He can therefore dance out of range easily and, if you've taken High Magic, still be within 24" range for everything he needs to do. As for miscasts and feedback, High Magic helps because it has such low casting values: neither are much of a threat as long as I don't get foolhardy and start chucking 5/6 dice.

I'll leave your specific questions until last, if I may, since they're useful points to conclude the topic with.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Seredain!

It seems to me you are going for more defensive, counter-charge approach now. Any particular reason for that? :)

Hey Swordie! MSU going well, I see?

A bit yes and a bit no. Remember that, in most of my draft lists, I've been running 2 repeater bolt throwers. In fact, my very first tactical post, "On Repeater Bolt Throwers", was about why repeaters (although expensive) can be wonderful to hitty-but-fragile High Elves. In that sense (although High Magic is a big change), I'm going back to my roots a little.


The Return of the Reapers

On the other hand, as you say, there is a change of emphasis here from the list I've been recently running. Having made the switch to 2 eagles, I'm not likely to go back to just one. For an army like mine, which wants to take out pieces of the enemy army one at a time, having another turn of eagle-harassment is just gold dust. On the other hand, losing the 2nd repeater (for a boosted magic phase), made my life difficult in other ways. All of a sudden, enemy harassment units (especially fast cav and flyers, but also individual characters like Chaos disc-sorcerers), were spending much more time close in to my units than being blasted from the face of the earth or scared into hiding. Remember those fiends dancing into my backline and eating my white lions? I hated it. It wasn't the damage they caused (I won through in the end, and magic helped there), it was the fact that I wasn't in control of my part of the field, and it lost me models and, just as bad, movement. My archers and spears spent most of the battle stuck in defensive formation and, it was only in the last 2 turns that I was able to break them out and have them join my knights to win the game - literally in the last turn.

After that game, getting the 2nd eagle allowed me to dedicate the archers to stopping these kind of units, but the 2nd repeater bolt thrower makes it so much easier to take out such units and control board space, protecting my soft elf infantry (as well as acting as another target itself). It also, of course, helps to make holes in units (or big monsters) that I plan on killing quickly in combat. Because shooting has the greatest range of any weapon we posses, it is perhaps the archetypal 'balance tipper' and, therefore, brings a lovely amount of tactical flexibility for a High Elf army looking to go on the attack.

You mentioned 'counter-attacking', though, and you were right. Heavy cavalry is the best troop type at going forward quickly, but it's even better at leaping out at units whose advance has left them exposed. Shooting, in concert with magic, has an incredibly important role to play here. If your enemy thinks he can stand still without suffering damage, he will take up a strong position and take his chances or, if his own shooting is potent, force you to come to him. My list can do this kind of full-out attack, but the basic truth is that it is much easier to steamroll an enemy flank when it's coming towards you. You'll get there quicker, and they won't be able to rely on a board-edge to save them. So, having a decent shooting phase forces my opponent (depending on his army), to march towards me and, in so doing, to make himself vulnerable.

This is where High Magic comes in.


High on Life

I've talked lots about the usefulness of Life Magic for a list like mine - it makes up for the fact that I haven't spent much on elite infantry (by making them hard), it heals my fighting characters (where I can get the archmage close enough), and Dwellers adds a massive amount of power to my ranged potential (few enemy units want to just sit there and take a Dwellers every turn). Crucially, since I only run one caster, it also provides miscast protection.

So how does High Magic, a cheap utility lore, make up for these strengths generally and, especially, Dwellers Below?

Let's get High

The first, obvious, answer is the Curse of Arrow Attraction. Shooting is important to me, but I don't want to spend all my core points on it since the cheaper, ranked-up spearelves are the best steadfast unit I have and also the best unit for breaking steadfast alongside my hitty elites and cavalry. For a list that relies mostly on MSU-ish tactics, having one big block to work around is fantastic. Arrow Curse, then, is the shortcut to helping my shooting become amazing without spending more points on it. The repeaters, especially, benefit immensely. 100 points is not so many to spend on a machine if it's re-rolling missed hits. The arrow curse is, in effect, our engineer.

The ultimate point about Arrow Curse is the point about High Magic in general: with the right kind of units to work with, it becomes an absolute steal for its casting value. With 28 archers (including 18 flaming) and 2 repeaters, Arrow Curse becomes a deadly spell, and my archmage only needs a 3 to cast it. Vaul's Unmaking, always irritating but now deadly, with my cavalry prince rushing enemy characters (especially the dreadlord), needs 8. Whole unit combos end to this spell. Shield of Saphery, much better than a basic Earthblood with its 24" range, is another 3-up and adds a "Life-mini" kind of support to my combat units. Fury just adds to the shooting phase and helps me win that essential board control or focus down that big unit. On its own, ok, but alongside all those other missiles? Much better. Courage of Aenarion, often unloved, finds its best use in non-steadfast MSU units. Against low-stength troops, eagles gain steadfast becomes a real problem. And Flames of the Phoenix? It was good in 7th. In 8th, when we're so often facing hordes of 50 models or more, it is simply stupendous for an 11+ spell - half the price of 24" Dwellers. I need to roll a 7 to hit 50 skaven? And it's Remains in Play? Amazing. Let's also remember the issue with target restrictions and the Old Book magic spells. To my knowledge, there remains no barrier to casting Flames into combat. And, of course, the other boon of this cheapness is that more spells can be cast per phase; making up, in part, for the loss of the Banner of Sorcery. Drain Magic is just the cherry on the cake.

The final point, always crucial in my head as a one-wizard player, is the miscast issue. You'll notice that none of the above spells require more than 3 dice. I don't have Throne, then, but neither will miscasting be a big feature of a High-archmage game. On the other hand, all of these spells will, because of my variety of units, always be useful throughout the game. This makes dispelling a hard choice for my opponent or, if he's simply too afraid of Vaul's (deathstars) or Flames (cheap hordes), allow me to do anything else. Shield in particular (a wonderful spell for my cavalry), is far less likely to be dispelled when cast on my knights than Flesh to Stone. It is something of an irony that my cavalry will likely end up better protected by High Magic than by Life. The casting values also mean, of course, that I can cast more spells with each phase.

Time to come down to Earth and look at the problems with the switch, then.

Choose Life

My characters can't be healed. This makes the Talisman of Loec an inferior item, since I'll have to think much more carefully about when to pop it. The archmage himself, unless I take Folariath's Robe (see above), becomes more vulnerable and, if he's dead, you can ignore everything I've said above.

Dwellers. Yes, it's dirty and horrid. But being able to sink a Slann into the ground on Turn 2 is stupendous. The fact that I can get myself miscast protection with Throne and then 6-dice this spell makes it a killer. Flames, meanwhile, can never kill characters. On the other hand, my army is full of character-killing weapons (namely the elites and my own characters), and recently we've seen the danger in leaving them unsupported by using Dwellers in their stead (my last game with the Lizards).

Throne of Vines. Being able to force through the spell you need, on 6 dice, is a valuable gift, and Throne lets it happen. With High Magic, I'm more likely to get more very useful spells off in a turn, but I'll be reluctant to force through one that I really want for fear of miscasting.

Flesh to Stone. Because it solves their fundamental weakness, this spell is the single best friend to swordmasters. Regrowth, which can sweep my unit of 14 back to life again, compounds the problem for my opponents. How can they focus enough points to kill these terrible swords when there's a helm tank running amok? The real test of the switch to High will, I think, be whether my elite infantry can survive games with their defences down. The shield should go off reliably, but it isn't as good as T5/T7 against most troops. High will have to make up for this by making my own weapons better: enemy shooters can't hurt swordmasters if they've been Fury'd, shot to death, Flamed (shooty hordes are rare but they do exist) or drained of runes by Vaul's.

High Magic and the Robe

And so we turn to the Ethereal Archmage. Brewmaster, your point about the Robe synergising with Life Magic was spot on. Indeed, I've thought about it before but honestly, in the context of this change (the switch to High Magic came before the Robe), I hadn't even considered it. I had, however, considered the use of the Robe in the context of the whole army and, in this sense, considering I've lost Life, it fits with High Magic absolutely perfectly.

For an army that's abandoned Life magic and all its benefits, one of the best ways to protect the fragile elites is to simply hold the things that really kill them. With High Magic, shooting and all my high-strength close combat attacks, I can deal with hordes and most monsters. But what about the monsters I can't kill quick enough (ie where there are 2 or 3 of them), and who'll thunderstomp the T3 swordmasters to death? Shield helps but, as we've looked at above, a robed archmage can be a total life-saver against any stomper that lacks static combat resolution. Simply put, the swordmasters can ignore it until they're ready to flank, or until the prince has ridden in to do the job.

In this sense, you see, the Robe doesn't so much make the archmage better at what he does (as it would with Life by allowing him to get in close and cast Earthblood), rather it compensates for the defensive weakness of High Magic by giving me yet another unit (on top of the prince and accumulated missile fire), with which to neutralise 8th Edition's big beasts. The Robe doesn't help a High Magic archmage at all, then, but it helps his army immensely even as it enjoys the more versatile benefits of the new lore.

Conclusion

Brewmaster_D wrote:
So with that in mind, a few questions for you Seredain:

1. Given your equipment change on your Archmage, and the long(ish) ranges on most of the High Magic spells, do you think High Magic is still the right choice of lores, over your traditional choice of life?

2. I view High Magic and Light Magic as being very close to each other in overall utility. Now that your Archmage can function in a more central location, have you considered what Light could potentially bring to the table? (Yeah I know, shut up about the lore of light, D :P)

3. If you were to change the lores to something other than High, would your shooting setup change with the loss of Curse of Arrow attraction?

So, to conclude:

1) I do, because it helps the army manage the loss of the Lore of Life by providing another anvil for the high active-CR but low static-CR units which populate 8th edition and which can worry those small elite units. That High Magic can threaten these with Arrow Curse and Fury, and provide aid with the Shield, matches well with the Robe to keep my defense strong while also adding a bunch of weapons (or weapon-enhancers) to my anti-monster arsenal. Being able to flit around the board also means that, with 24" range on the spells, I can be throwing Fury at skirmishers in the same turn as I'm killing a deathstar's magical banner. Manoeuvreability and 24" range go very well together.

2) I have, but the specific qualities of High Magic fit so well with every element of my army that I think, for the casting price, I'd be silly not to give it a go. There's Arrow Curse for repeaters and archers, Vaul's for the prince, Shield for anything, Flames for Dwellers, Fury for board-control, Courage for MSU units, Drain Magic for improved defense (worth mentioning since I have a cheap magic phase). Finally, I never think of a magic phase without considering miscasts. To get this kind of synergy for such low casting values (and the security which follows), is something I value very highly.

3) A very good question indeed. Honestly, I'm not certain how to answer it. For sure, there will be battles where I don't roll Arrow Curse, and I'll get on just fine because the other spells slot in so well. However, it's hard to think of my shooting phase being as dangerous without it. On the other hand, my old 2RBT phase served its purpose admirably: forcing the enemy to advance, clearing light units and hammering attacking units pre-combat. I just wasn't happy then with the lack of eagles and got lured by the Banner of Sorcery (a wonderful item when you're looking to power your way thorugh to a T7 unit or Dwellers Below). Now that I've got cheap High spells, the banner isn't quite so necessary to get many spells off (remember that, by casting more spells, my opponent's dispel pool has to deal with many more '+4 to cast' bonuses from my archmage), and I still have the 2 eagles. I think the repeaters have made a welcome return, then, and this would still be the case without the Curse. Having said that, the Curse is a standout spell alongside these units. Other lores would become contenders if it wasn't there.

However, it's worth mentioning, as an afterthought, that my enduring attraction to High Magic has for a long time been about Vaul's Unmaking and not the Arrow Curse. The idea that my prince couldn't slay a dreadlord never sat well with me. No more! His role as a character-assassin is greatly improved by this spell, while my own ability to hold of 8th's filthiest combos is made much better. It's a unique, and amazing, 8th Ed spell. And only 12+ to cast!

Really excellent questions, dude. I'm glad you joined the party.


My rematch against Mallas should be coming up soon, so we'll see how I can get along against the Lizards without Slann-sniping Dwellers and stegadon-stopping Flesh to Stone. A good test of the new setup, for sure. Fingers crossed!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:58 am 
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Hey Seredain,


Seredain wrote:
Brewmaster! I suckered you in at last...


Bahaha! You know I can't resist a conversation about Forliath's Robes!

As always, well written and well explained. I like your justification for taking high in your list and agree with most, if not all of your points regarding its strengths. Swordmaster and I hashed out many of the advantages and disadvantages in his thread, and I found it to be quite an enlightening conversation - he then put his money where his mouth was and showed us how effective it can be, even with an MSU style of list.

So in that spirit, I'd like to push this conversation a bit further if I may! Let's start with one of my favourite topics - redundancy. I'm going to use headings because I've recently discovered that it makes your posts really easy to read and follow, so hopefully it helps bring some order to the chaos that can be my thoughts.

Redundancy is... redundant

For some strange reason, the word redundant has gotten a bit of a bad rap. Generally it is used with a negative connotation - likely because of people using sentences like my title phrase. However, when you're thinking about strategy, I believe redundancy is not only good, but something that should be written into any list. To me, redundancy represents the mitigation of risk, which is in it's most boiled down form what this game is about. Let's face it *^%# happens, the key is being ready to deal with it.

Get to the point D

High Magic's strength lies in two key areas - low casting values, and broad range of spells. There is essentially a spell for every situation:

- Flames for hordes
- Fury for light support units
- Vaul's for Deathstars
- Drain for Magic Heavy
- Curse to boost the threat level of our otherwise overpriced Archers and Bolt Throwers
- Shield to boost the defense of our troops
- Courage to generate movement/board control advantages by creating unexpected anvils

Every one of those spells is great, and for each one of those I can think of a situation where it would come in handy. However, what I find is lacking is redundancy. There is a degree of overlap - namely curse of arrow attraction and fury of khaine - however by and large in each given turn there's going to be one spell that stands out as a clear winner, and a handful of "second bests". Let me highlight what I mean using my lore of choice, light, for comparison:

Situation 1 - The enemy has a gunline

High Magic
- Shield of Saphery will protect key troops
- To a degree Curse of Arrow attraction will aid in a counter-battery war

Lore of Light
- Pha's protection can protect either a key unit on a low value, or a large section of the army on a higher value
- Net of Amyntok can automatically disable a key piece of artillery
- Timewarp can generate the movement necessary to close the gap sooner

Situation 2 - A key combat has occurred, and your troops need a push to help tip the scales

High Magic
- Shield of Saphery will help the troops defensively
- Vaul's can situationally help out if the opposing unit has a powerful magic item

Lore of Light
- Pha's protection can reduce the opponent's hit-rate
- Speed of Light can both reduce the opponent's hit-rate and increase your own
- Timewarp can drastically improve your troop's combat abilities

Situation 3 - An outgunned unit guarding a flank desperately needs to hold to keep the enemy from overwhelming your shooting

High Magic
- Courage can make the unit stubborn, increasing the odds of holding
- Shield can protect the unit, improving it's odds of survival

Lore of Light
- Light of Battle can make the unit unbreakable
- Pha's protection can increase the odds of survival
- Net of Amyntok can prevent the opponent from moving
- Timewarp can quickly reposition your units to respond to the threat

All of that to illustrate one point - with High Magic there is usually a clear winner and a distant second. With Light, there are many options to accomplish the same thing. So while on paper I find High Magic looks like the bargain of the century, situationally it ends up being much like any other lore - the real casting value is how much you want the spell to go off rather than the number in the book. When you've got one spell that will produce a huge effect and a couple that will produce a minor effect, it becomes very easy for your opponent to prioritize his dispelling. While it looks like you can spam 2 dice spells, I have found in my experience using the lore that the lack of redundancy in utility results in a fairly predictable magic phase, and far too many "I think I'd rather not cast than risk a miscast" moments. To me, that's one of the worst situations to be in - you have resources at your disposal, but the benefit of the spell is so small that the risk of a miscast outweighs it.

At the end of the day, I think you said it best (imagine that?):

Seredain wrote:
Being able to force through the spell you need, on 6 dice, is a valuable gift, and Throne lets it happen. With High Magic, I'm more likely to get more very useful spells off in a turn, but I'll be reluctant to force through one that I really want for fear of miscasting.


I'd also like to point out that Light is not the only lore with redundancy - it just happens to both excel at it, and also be the lore I have the most experience with. Shadow, for example, has things like Miasma/Enfeebling, Withering/Mindrazor, etc. Nonetheless, just some food for thought in your upcoming matches using High Magic.

Diminishing Returns

The second problem I've found with High Magic (and I'm just splitting hairs at this point) is that several of the spells suffer from diminishing returns as the game progresses. Once again, I'll make an attempt to break it down:

- Drain Magic: Universally useful. Some situations it might lose utility, but by and large a great spell
- Shield of Saphery: Again, always has some use, given that your opponents goal is to.. well... kill you
- Curse of Arrow Attraction: Much like the archers themselves, the spell loses utility later in the game. Once combat has erupted, targets get slim, and unlike the Archers themselves, the Curse can't switch over to combat
- Courage of Anaerion: Kind of a situational spell to begin with, but it has next to no utility early game, short of some really bad break tests
- Fury of Khaine: Similar to the Archers, by mid/endgame typically units are tied up in combat
- Flames of the Phoenix: Always nasty, but as unit sizes diminish, so does its overall damage - keep in mind that at the end of the day it's only S3 with armour allowed in the turn it is cast.
- Vaul's Unmaking: Most lists I find have only a couple key magic items. Once these are gone, the spell quickly loses utility.

Once again, too many words to convey a simple thought - I've found that High Magic tends to peter out late game. Once the key magic items are gone from Vaul's, it's almost not worth risking a miscast to get rid of an ironcurse icon.

Conclusion? Yeah, it's probably time to wrap this up

I don't want to give people the wrong idea here that High Magic is a waste and should be left at home. This is definitely not the case! The lore has some tremendous and unique spells that can have a huge effect on the game. I'm just presenting a different view because... well... somebody has to ;)

So true to form, Seredain, I'll leave you with a couple questions:

1. Do you think that the situations your army typically gets in will provide situations where High Magic will produce the redundancy needed to challenge an opponent's dispel strategy? By that I mean consistently produce situations where two spells have equivalent threat level, and do so throughout the game to keep him guessing about how to distribute his dice?

2. Do you think that High Magic has the staying power to both benefit your army and provide your opponent with a challenge in terms of dispel priority in the early, mid and late game? If yes, which spells in particular do you view as especially strong in these different stages?

As always, your responses are much appreciated!

D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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I think Light's a great Lore but High Magic's our Lore, no-one else gets it. I take your point about redundancy Brewmaster and that Light may be better if there's one result from any given turn that you really want to achieve. But I've not really found this to be a problem and maybe that's because with my playstyle (fast, MSU-ish) there always seems to be a lot going on. Most of the spells are 2-die, that's a 1-in-36 of miscasting and the same of failing, I cast every time I've got the dice.

Drain. Can be great against things like Dreaded 13th and to push up the dice the other guy needs to roll. But essentially it's a sometimes-useful bonus IMHO.
Shield. A 5+ Ward is a great spell for a Lore to have as a default. 18" range Seredain :) but that's enough. Especially useful turns 2/3-6 once the combats start.
Curse. Nice, helpful buff if you've got some shooting but not essential. Good the whole game for magic bows as these tend to survive, also for RBT if your opponent fails to deal with them.
Fury. A key spell in the Lore. Having a cheap, reliable 2-die S4 missile is excellent and an advantage over otherwise great Lores like Shadow or Life. Deals with Wraiths and can be better than Flames sometimes.
Flames. This is the dice-drainer. Very often you have a target your opponent does not want Flamed and this gets your other stuff through.
Vaul's. Can be a must-dispel so again, gives the other guy a very difficult decision to make.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:31 pm 
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joey_boy wrote:
Hi Seredain!

I used a version of your Cav list in a tournament this weekend and ended up 14th out of 40 players. I was tied for first going in to the second day, but sadly a 8 dice mindrazor stopped that ;)

Anyway. I found that some of the things in the list was not really all to my liking. The lack of shooting to deal with enemy re-directors was one of the main issues I had and it made a big impact in my last game when I played against Ogres and could not kill the cats and gorgers fas enough. The second main problem I had was the lack of flexibility with the magic. I needed to cast flesh to stone on the SH-buss against a lot of opponents and it was a bit of make it or break it.

My thoughts on how to compensate for the main issues I had with the list? Well more shooting just like you seem to be doing and to mount my AM. This allows me to have 2 great buffs on the unit, +T and Reg. Both will work really well, and keep my AM close to the fight so he can heal the Characters. I also get the added bonus of being able to cast flesh to stone on another unit and Earth Blood on the Silver Helms, adding more potency to the army and it's ability to take a beating. Now I played with the Staff of Solidity this weekend and I must say it was amazing! Against the good players who dispel Throne every turn it really shined and allowed med to force spells in the following magic phase where I rolled 5-6PD vs 2-3DD. I could comfortably throw all the dice at the important spell(mostly Flesh since my Cav was in the thick of it) without bothering with the effects of miscast!

I did however really, really enjoy playing with the list and it was great fun! So I'll be getting my self a Cavalry army instead of just lending the minis from friends. It will be a great compliment to my WE who dislike being in combat :)

So this is what I have come up with after the paltry 5 games I played with the army:

Lords:
1 Prince, General, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, The Other Tricksters Shard, Barded Steed. 286 Pts

1 Archmage, lvl4, Lore of Life, Staff of Solidity, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon, Barded Steed. 339 Pts

Hero:
1 Noble, BSB, GW, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawn Stone, Amulet of Light, Barded Steed. 190 Pts

Core:
18 First Archers, Musician, Banner of the Eternal Flame. 223 Pts

10 Archers, Musician. 115 Pts

30 SpearElves, FC. 295 Pts

Special:
8 Silver Helms, FC. 224 Pts

21 White Lions, Musician, Banner of Sorcery. 383 Pts

6 Dragon Princes, Musician. 190 Pts

Rare:
1 Great Eagle. 50 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower. 100 Pts

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower. 100 Pts


Joey that list looks interesting. But why not change Solidity to dispel scroll or ring of corin.


Solidity on a Life Mage is a bit paranoid ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm 
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FriendlyFanatic wrote:
joey_boy wrote:
Hi Seredain!

I used a version of your Cav list in a tournament this weekend and ended up 14th out of 40 players. I was tied for first going in to the second day, but sadly a 8 dice mindrazor stopped that ;)

Anyway. I found that some of the things in the list was not really all to my liking. The lack of shooting to deal with enemy re-directors was one of the main issues I had and it made a big impact in my last game when I played against Ogres and could not kill the cats and gorgers fas enough. The second main problem I had was the lack of flexibility with the magic...


Joey that list looks interesting. But why not change Solidity to dispel scroll or ring of corin.


Solidity on a Life Mage is a bit paranoid ;)

Hey Joey,

That's a good list I think! The extra lions give you a nice anvil unit for your cavalry to work around. MSUish units can be a high-risk strategy if deployment or harassment goes against you, so having that extra rank can be a nice insurance policy. I'm inclined to agree with Fanatic about the Staff of Solidity. One of the things I love most about Life Magic, other than the awesome perk of character-healing, is the miscast protection Throne provides. Since we only run single casters, having that is crucial. Since you've gone Life, though, I suspect you could get on without it. On the other hand, it does allow you to comfortably 6-dice that crucial Dwellers cast even where you don't get Throne up. Something to be said for that, certainly.

I find your views on enemy harrassment and your own shooting a very good sign for your getting to grips with this kind of list. Board dominance is absolutely crucial to the way it plays (without a clear board, you can't freely manoeuvre your cavalry and gang up on enemy units). So, I don't find it surprising that you've turned to your shooting to help solve this fundamental issue (indeed, it's more important for you since you have fewer drops than me). Getting rid of 'board dominance' units is also one of the things that repeaters excel at when compared with other war machines (though shooting salamanders is always a pain in the arse...), so it's good to see them in this kind of army.

Mounting the Archmage

This is a very interesting idea! I've though about it quite often myself, but I didn't want to get the archmage too close to danger, so I always shied away from running him with my most blood-thirsty unit (apart from being afraid of Dwellers, I've never wanted to spend points just on protecting the archmage). Clearly you've been wrestling with the same issues as me, though: how to squeeze the most out of the spells you roll. Getting Earthblood up on the knights was your response and I (before I started trying out High Magic), ran the mage with the elites where it was safe enough to get Earthblood on them for some protection from shooting. I'm very curious to see how you get on with this mounted Life set up. I'll stick with robed High and we can compare notes. :)

Congratulations on your tournament showing - not bad at all!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Brewmaster D,

Thanks for the excellent breakdown of the benefits of Light Magic. If you send me the post's link, I'll put it in the contents page so people can find it easily.

Spellcasting - Redundancy of Spells vs Redundancy of Targets

In reply, I have to concede straight away that, in terms of the situational spell-redundancy you described, you make an excellent case. The Pha's Protection/Light of Battle pairing (for -1 to hit for enemy in close combat), is a particularly potent one for our fragile elves and makes up significantly for Life magic's great strength. Indeed, probably better not to be hit at all than to have to put lost wounds back on! Pha's and Net is another good one vs enemy missiles. So, Light has it over High when it comes to some specific situations (eg defending a unit of troops in a crucial combat). Protection from missiles and combat buffs are its specialty. What you may not have considered, though, is the greater number of situations High Magic can handle in any given turn and how these situations (or targets) can be used to focus ranged power and bring a different kind of redundancy.

Light, for its excellence, has problems. Unless you're taking several mages for coven-strength Banishment, the lore has little ranged aggression (Flames, you'll agree, is very potent for the cost). Although you might be able to protect your troops from ranged attacks in the early game, then, you'll struggle to actively damage an enemy at range with just a single Light archmage. As for the buffs, although marvellous for the price, they suffer the problem of all buffs: they do not stop your opponent from simply choosing to shoot something that isn't protected. Their effects are temporary, too, whereas spells like Vaul's and Flames have permanent effects and, therefore, permanently alter the game (sometimes greatly), with each cast. Other specific qualities (magic item destruction, drain magic) are, of course, available to High exclusively alongside its aggressive ranged power. In terms of the number of different things you can do in any given turn, then, High Magic has an advantage.

The best way to summarise this is perhaps to say that, where Light has the advantage in terms of spell redundancy in some specific situations (unit buffing vs shooting; unit buffing when in combat), High Magic (combined with the right troops), has the greater redundancy of the situations themselves. Further, where an army is built to take advantage of its spells, the number of situations in which a particular spell becomes very powerful increases. My army, as it happens, can take advantage of High spells rather well. In any given turn, I will be threatening the enemy with my cavalry and my shooting simultaneously. Both of these can work together very directly: most simply, for example, where my shooting targets the body of units about to be charged by the knights. In this situation, High Magic poses serious problems. Does my opponent dispel the Shield, protecting the knights about to charge; or Vaul's about to remove the protection from a character meeting my prince; or Flames, about to weaken this character's unit, or Arrow Curse, about to do likewise in conjunction with my shooting?

All these spells do very different things, then, but can achieve the same end, bringing redundancy, where the situations for which they were designed combine together. If I had no shooting, for example, an enemy wouldn't need to worry about Arrow Curse, so dispel-priorities would be clearer. As it is, Arrow Curse is very scary when I'm throwing it on enemy monsters, travelling wizards, knights or infantry buses approaching combat. Likewise, Vaul's it's much scarier for an enemy unit when there's a Str7 prince and combined-charge running at it. Flames, obviously, scares the hell out of large infantry units. Who's going to be worried about the Shield in these situations? On this basis, Shield will often go through even where opponents are looking to shoot the unit it's targeted at (within 18", ahem). Often, then, the other spells provide spell-redundancy for the shield even where they don't do the same thing at all. It is a strange irony that, since I'll get Shield off more often than I did Flesh to Stone, I'm more likely to be able to protect a unit with High Magic than with Life. Although we're looking at a lesser level of protection a 5+ ward save has an almost universal application, so the point is worth noting.

When choosing a lore, look at your army

The trick, to conclude, is to build an army which can turn these varied utility spells into killers and ensure that your opponent faces a series of bad choices when it comes to dispelling. For an army like yours, D, the bubble buffs and movement-boost work brilliantly with your massed elite infantry (as you've shown, Light has some of the most flexible buffs in the game) and, although a widespread MSU deployment can struggle to fit inside the bubble-casts, you have uber-Banishment to make up for it and bring some of the aggressive 'situational redundancy' that I like in High Magic.

For my army, though, the ability to gang up on the enemy, either by shielding the unit about to attack them, by Vauling them, or by throwing a hail of missiles, Fury and Flames at them, all for little cost, suits my one-caster cavalry-led combined-arms style. It is, effectively, a step up (in terms of variety of casts), of the old Life 'Flesh to Stone vs Dwellers' choices that my opponents have had to face previously, as opposed to a buff-focussed phase that Light would have to be for me (since the only ranged-attack spells are, for one caster, pretty mundane). I don't think there's a right answer but, ultimately, I think I can focus more power aggressively, when using my army with High Magic than with Light Magic, as well as benefitting from its unique qualities - Vaul's and Drain Magic. If I wanted to get the most advantage out of Light, I'd probably be looking at a back-up caster (Light), fewer bolters, more elite infantry and the Ring of Corin. I'm loving your army list though, Brew. Please take this wall of text as a sign that I've taken a good long look at Light Magic in response to your post!

Shooting and High Magic in the Late Game

I'm surprised you think shooting has little application in the late game though, D, because, in my experience, I have found late-game shooting to be extremely powerful. If I've done my job properly, enemy light units have been largely destroyed by this stage and this leaves the fewer remaining enemy blocks at the mercy of a shooting phase which does not need to protect itself or help my cavalry clear the board. Where I'm manoeuvering my combat units to gather against the remaining enemy blocks, then, nothing helps them out more than having my shooting withering away the remaining enemy infantry. Here, my ability to focus on the remaining enemy units with shooting while I'm gathering my last combined-charges makes High Magic hugely influential. Rather than buff my attacking units, as you do, I simply weaken the enemy instead units instead. When I do engage with these last blocks, meanwhile, there are always other things to shoot. Because of the all-or-nothing quality of victory points in 8th, lots of players take their one or two remaining models from previously-big units and retreat them away from the fight. A decent shooting phase, especially with Arrow Curse, can pick up these points and win games.

An example. I recently played against a chosen-star/marauder horde WoC list (couldn't get hold of photos, so no report) and missed a High shooting phase very greatly. At the end of the game, my opponent only had a shrine, 2 marauder horse, 1 chaos knight, a sorceror disc-lord and the chosen-star left (2 heroes + 12 chosen- it never saw combat). Few models but lots of points. Unfortunately I had, by the end of Turn 2, lost my prince and all of my knights to a 12 dice Gateway phase, a single Hell Cannon (killed 6 helms and the prince with 2 direct hits) and a Bloodcurdling Roar (which killed 4 DPs in one go!). The game couldn't have started worse. I was, however, able to pull it back with my archmage and infantry and, by end of game, there were only about 250-odd points in it (I had my single RBT, both archer units, my spears, white lions and the archmage). An extra repeater, with High Magic in support, could've taken out the marauder horse and last chaos knight much more easily and, therefore, swung the game. A late game Vaul's, taking away the sorceror lord's ward save, would have likewise made him very vulnerable on his disc- a ripe target for single bolts. Not many wounds to take out there, then, but big swings in terms of points. Shooting, with Arrow Curse, plus Fury, Vaul's and even flames, all have something to say when it comes to clearing points up. Str7 banishment would be amazing, but I've only got one archmage...

Thank you for some top-quality points, D. They certainly made me see the strengths of your playstyle very clearly. With all the elite infantry and mages you've got, the buffs and the high-strength banishments really start to rack up bad choices for your opponent when it comes to facing your multi-mage magic phase. For my cavalry prince-led, one-caster magic, combined-arms approach, though, I hope I've convinced you that High Magic has something to say.

On which subject, I finally got another game in against Mallas' Lizardmen on Friday night. I had my camera, and a battle report is on its way...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:28 am 
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Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen

Seredain's High Elves

Seredain
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Plucker Pendant - 286

Lecalion
Archmage - Level 4, High Magic, Folariath's Robe, Dispel Scroll - 325

Caradath
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command - 295
18 Archers - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame - 223
10 Archers - 110

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Ironcurse Icon - 227
12 White Lions - Guardian, Gem of Courage - 202
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points

Spells: Drain Magic, Shield of Saphery, Arrow Curse, Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix

Mallas' Lizardmen

Slann - Life Magic, Focused Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, +1 Spell, BSB
Scar-Veteran - Great Weapon, Light Armour, Dragon Helm, Crown of Command, Cold One
Skink Priest - Level 1, Cube of Darkness, Engine of the Gods

30 Saurus Warriors - Full Command, HW & Shields
40 Cohort Skinks - Full Command, 2 Kroxigor
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

10 Temple Guard - Full Command, Banner of Discipline
5 Saurus Cavalry - Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame

3 Terradons
1 Salamander
1 Salamander

Spells: Slann - Awakening, Throne of Vines, Flesh to Stone, Regrowth, Dwellers Below. Skink - Wind Blast.

The Field

The board was a nice mix of woods and buildings. On the far west was an elven waystone and, in the centre, a wyrding well. The two forests (marked with tree-crested hills on the board), both turned out to be dreadwoods (unit occupying causes fear), while the hill in Mallas' deployment zone (he won the roll to choose sides and kindly took that side), was an Anvil of Vaul. Lots of elven features for me to reconquer!

Image

Deployment

A very interesting part of the game since Mallas had plenty of throwaway drops and forced me to play some tricks before the powerful infantry blocks were down. Luckily, even without the chariot, I had plenty of units with which to do sensible things. First, of course, the eagles, then the 10 green archers, holding the woods to my left), then the repeaters and 18 archers covering both open spaces to either side of the wyrding well. On the far left, the dragon princes went down (once a sallie had been placed opposite) and, next, the white lions guarding the right flank. The swordmasters stood to the left of my missile base so that, whichever flank I chose to commit the knights to, they'd have a unit of elites on hand to support them. By this point the temple guard had already gone to the back of the lizards' left, sheltering behind the central wood and the line of obstacles between it and the building on my far right - a line well-placed to trip up my knights.

Now, though, Mallas had to start committing his infantry without knowing yet whether I planned to go left or right with the silver helms. Still unsure, the skink/krox went first and stood centrally up on the hill. My spearelves then went down opposite, confident of tearing them up. This left the saurus in a quandary. Go next to the cohort to cover the wide gap still open on the lizards' right flank, or stand to protect the Slann on their left? The problem was that, at this point, the temple guard were still wide open to assault: there was nothing stood between them and my side of the board...

I was already thinking of deploying my Helms 3-wide to leap through the gap between building and wall when Mal threw down his big saurus block right on his left flank. No way straight to the Slann, then, but I had another opportunity. I deployed the silver helms far left and now had an attack made of all my cavalry, the spearelves and the swordmasters, with only the white lions holding the right flank against the saurus. They would refuse this and my eagles would hold the lizards for as long as possible, while I attacked on the left with overwhelming force. Seeing my knights go down, and that his skinks could not stand alone against their opponents, Mal placed his engine steg on my far left, by the marsh, to cover the open ground between my body of troops and the core of the lizardman army.

Image
High Elf deployment. To the left, acting as a wyrding well, you will notice a powerful coffee can of healing.

Image
High Elf right flank.

Image
High Elf left flank (the archmage has actually deployed with the swordmasters).

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Vanguard - the terradons move up. The Lizardmen win the first turn and march on behind.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:07 am 
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That was very interesting discussion about magic you had there and I see Brewmaster never gives up and takes an opportunity to convert everybody to Light :) The only thing I could add (or highlight rather, as it was already mentioned) is that one should consider the role of magic for particular army while choosing the lore. And both your armies are very good examples of that. With more spellcasters Light is much stronger than it would be with a single wizard. I am really looking forward to seeing how True Magic is going to help Seredain and his elves this time. That being said I also believe there is no right or wrong in terms of magic lore one decides to pick as long as he knows what he wants it for. :)

As to the game itself I am wondering if you are going to use your superior shooting to get rid of skins or are they going to be ignored for targets like Salamanders or Saurus Cavalry. Both options have their merits I think. That lone engine on the flank looks vulnerable to cavalry attack and the salamander nearby might soon be a target of some knights who do not fear fire :) My bet is that you are going to be aggressive on that flank while very defensive on the other one. But I also hope Mallas will come up with some tricks on his own to make the battle even more interesting. :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
and I see Brewmaster never gives up and takes an opportunity to convert everybody to Light


I don't really see how two posts that each pose specific, different questions, and back up their queries with detailed examples is "never giving up". Regardless, my posts were intended to pose questions about the redundancy of High Magic, rather than the benefits of Light per se. There is also only certain types of list that Light works with, and I'm fully aware of that - I'm not plugging Light to Tethlis for example, because Shadow is a clear winner with his list build.

Having said that, yer darn tootin' I'm plugging lore of light! I staunchly believe it's one of the most underrated lores we have available because on paper it looks significantly less threatening than it plays out on the field. When I first started to use it, I had it pegged as a secondary caster lore only, but when I fielded it, I found I was using my level 2 Light Mage more than my Level 4 Life Archmage. I believe it needs to be played to be truly appreciated.

@ Seredain

I like it. I would agree with your statement that High Magic has the edge with redundancy of situations themselves. You've got much more experience with your list than I do (Seredain: 1457, Brewmaster_D: 0), so you're significantly more familiar with the situations that you're typically in. I see High Magic excelling in exactly the type of environment you specify - when there are multiple different threatening situations on the board for your opponent. I think the proof will be in the pudding - get some games in with High and see how it pans out. The key, I think, is going to be in your ability to create those situations where the lore excels, if you catch my drift.

Regarding shooting late game: I suppose this comes down to the style of list I have experience with. As previously discussed, one of the best places to be to really capitalize on the lore of Light is in combat, so this tends to be my focus late game. Due to this, I find that my targets are limited once turn 5 & 6 roll around because I'm typically playing cleanup at this point. Yours certainly has an advantage in this regard - at this point you should have movement superiority, and you should be lining up a final combo charge. In this situation, you're exactly right - your shooting can whittle a unit down for when you engage it, as well as create psychological pressure on your opponent; he must engage something, or risk being rendered ineffective by repeated ranged fire.

Regarding your upcoming match and deployment: Can't wait to see how this one pans out! I definitely think you've got an edge with deployment - I know that he didn't know where the bus was going when he dropped the unit, but I'm still suprised it ended up so far East.

On an unrelated note, for some reason when I read your battle reports and your cavalry bus is lining up a charge, "Ride of the Valkyries" starts to play in my head.

D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
The only thing I could add (or highlight rather, as it was already mentioned) is that one should consider the role of magic for particular army while choosing the lore. And both your armies are very good examples of that.

A very, very important consideration for anyone choosing their magic phase. Hell, I only brought back a single repeater bolt thrower and lost the Banner of Sorcery, and it caused a full-on review of both my magic lore and my playstyle. It's the ultimate rule of list design: never think about any single choice in isolation from the rest of your army!

Interesting game predictions Swordie! Let's find out...

Brewmaster_D wrote:
I see High Magic excelling in exactly the type of environment you specify - when there are multiple different threatening situations on the board for your opponent. I think the proof will be in the pudding - get some games in with High and see how it pans out. The key, I think, is going to be in your ability to create those situations where the lore excels, if you catch my drift.

D, this is a very good point to remember for anyone looking to use a pan-situational lore like High Magic.

Situations don't create themselves - it's up to the general to deploy and manoeuvre his units so that the enemy's magic defences are presented with a number of threats. Shooting and cavalry work well in this regard, though. They both have such impressive range that it's easier to combine them against a single part of the board than with infantry. Including the boon of having the cheap 18" shield to throw on the knights, High magic does seem very well designed for cavalry-led combined arms armies with a decent amount of shooting. Theoretically...

Brewmaster_D wrote:
On an unrelated note, for some reason when I read your battle reports and your cavalry bus is lining up a charge, "Ride of the Valkyries" starts to play in my head.

Yeah, it scares the hell out of Charlie! Nothing like the thought of gleaming lances, shining mail and thundering hooves. Let's see what they can do this game. I'm off work sick today so plenty of spare time: got my soup, got my paracetamol; let's get typing!

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Hey Seredain,

Looking forward to the rest of the report. I had a quick comment for your most recent list:

Seredain wrote:
Battle Report - High Elves vs Lizardmen

Seredain's High Elves

10 Archers - 110

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Ironcurse Icon - 227
12 White Lions - Guardian, Gem of Courage - 202



Why not Gleaming Pennant on the White Lions (now that it's no longer on the Spears)? It seems to be the superior item in this instance (especially since you prefer running the WL's away from the General and BSB). With no Musician, you wouldn't have to worry about 'wasting' the Gleaming Pennant on a Swift Reform.

You would have to switch the Guardian for a Standard (no small decision believe me), but your list seems a little light on those anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you currently lose a Blood and Glory if your Prince and BsB died?).

If you did decide on this you'd have some points saved for potentially a musician on the 2nd Archer unit.

Just some thoughts. Good luck with High Magic (I've come around to it). :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Hey Brewmaster! That was just a friendly comment, no evil intentions or undermining your well earned reputation as Champion of Light :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:22 am 
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Lizardmen Turn 1

All the lizardman infantry and cavalry moved forward behind a screen of skirmishers; the former keeping back slightly so as not to enter the 24" zone infront of my repeaters. The advance was quickest on the flanks, with both salamanders leading the way through whatever cover they could find. In the east, this meant the woods infront of my shooting base- the perfect hiding place for the reptilian skirmishers. On the western flank, the stegadon moved forward enough to stay out of charge range but threaten anything that drew close with the engine, with the salamander and skirmishers in attendance. The most drastic move of the turn was made by the terradons. Deciding that they'd have a punt at drawing out a rash charge from my swordmasters, they flew right in front of the elite elves to chuck a few javelins.

Magic was a complete dud! A 1+1 phase left Mallas with nothing to do but either try and wind blast my eagle (into the archers - not a bad idea), or put Throne up on the Slann. On the basis that my +5 to dispel might overawe the little skink priest, Mal chose the throne.

Not much was doing in the shooting phase, but the terradon riders chucked their javelins and downed two elite swordmasters! Bastards! It was time to show these savages that there was something more technologically advanced to do with missiles...

Image
The lizardmen make a tentative advance on the east flank.

Image
The ancient stegadon stands as the cornerstone of the lizards' defense in the west.

High Elves Turn 1

My elves were no fools - they weren't going to give up position by charging some terradons. I had other tools for this work. My centre held its ground and prepared to unleash ranged death. On the right flank, my white lions swung into action and moved directly backwards 2.5". Things were much more dynamic in the west, however. The dragon princes shifted left a little to cover the ground before them and to allow the silver helms to advance. They came on about 12" so that they'd have an easy charge on the steg, but were far enough away to prevent it from escaping their charge-arc. Seredain called out a challenge to the priest perched upon the enormous beast and dared him to charge.

As the knights advanced, the green archers moved up into the western wood to take cover and fire a volley against the skinks to their front. The spearelves marched alongside them and the nearby eastern eagle hopped behind the blue archers. To the west, the other eagle leaped down infront of the nearby salamander to prevent him getting a flank shot on my helms. He'd either have to back off, looking for a shot from the front (in which case I'd have charges or clear shooting on against him), or he could charge the eagle and have the dragon princes counter-charge him.

Magic saw all odds defied when I copied Mal and rolled two 1's for power dice! Lecalion contented himself with dispelling the slann's throne and then called out to his Eatainian brethren to see off these damn flyers. The repeater bolt throwers quietly swivelled onto their targets and speared all of them into the ground. Both archer units, meanwhile, focussed their bows against the western skink skirmishers and killed all but one. The little skink passed his panic test, however, and, since his fellows were lain dead all around him, this was to his credit.

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Magic fails...

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...but shooting performs.

Lizardmen Turn 2

The steg bellowed, lowered its head and charged into my knights, who spurred their horses on, lowered their lances and gritted their teeth. Across the rest of the field, the lizard infantry marched up, especially the skirmishers who were looking to get some shots off. In the west, the salamander resolved not to charge the eagle and moved round to the rear of the stegadon, facing toward the green archers and spearelves. On the eastern flank, the salamander in particular came on apace and prepared to burn my white lions.

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WHAM!

Magic saw Loec reward the Slann for his forebearance by loading him up with the full 12 power dice though Lecalion, concentrating hard, managed to channel an extra dispel dice to give me 7 to play with. The situation wasn't as bad as all that anyway - with the Slann still more than 24" away from any of my units, there wasn't much the Lizards could achieve through magic this turn and, in the end, the Slann's rolls didn't manage a lot. I dispelled Throne of Vines on 4 dice, allowed Flesh to Stone through on the unit of skirmishers moving up to provide support in the East, and finally managed to dispel Regrowth on the skirmisher unit I'd shattered, after the slann rolled poorly on 4 dice. No biggie. The skink priest had bigger business, though and triggered an explosion of energy from the engine which burst 9" outward, bring down a silver helm and 3 dragon princes. The bottom line: my knights had to kill this thing quicker than it could melt them. Step forward Seredain.

Shooting was limited to the salamander belching flames toward the stalwart white lions. I looked calm, but I knew what these babies could do and held my breath as Mal rolled... an 8 on the artillary dice. Thankfully, this saw the greater part of the flame template shoot over the lions' heads, but the tail of napalm falling to the earth hit four of them and killed three. The required panic test was taken with three dice and I thanked the Gem of Courage when I rolled a 6, a 5 and a 1. The lions, obviously a little unnerved, stood their ground. On the other side of the board, the western salamander had a crack at burning the archers (with the possibility of an overshoot into the spearelves), but could only clip them, killing two or three. With the their commander riding close, the archers easily passed their panic test.

Combat was heralded with the crash of mighty reptilian horns on shields and steel as the ancient stegadon smashed into the silver helms, inflicting the full seven impact hits! All wounded successfully and it was only by the grace of Asuryan that my knights made four successful saves on a 5+, meaning that only three of them dropped, broken, to the ground. Afraid of elven revenge, and before his enemies could close in and bring down his mount, the skink priest called out a challenge to the elven heroes. However, he was still belching out his primitive threats when Seredain quickly seized a lance from one of his companions and hurled it straight into the priest's chest. As the little corpse toppled to the earth, the elven prince redrew his sword and roared to his companions to rush on and bring down the monster before them.

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On the western flank, Seredain smites the skink priest and neutralises the Engine of the Gods.

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In the east, the Gem of Courage earns its points.

High Elves Turn 2

In answer to their lord's call, the dragon princes lowered their lances and charged into the stegadon's flank. The green archers attempted a charge on the nearby salamander but, upon realising they couldn't make it, shuffled to a halt at the edge of the western wood.

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The elven monster-hunters go to work.

On the eastern flank the white lions, unwilling to take another burst of flame from the salamander infront of them, charged it. The beast fled and the charge was a failure, but this was fine: it couldn't shoot next turn, and the lions were still far away from the saurus warriors. The warriors were less fortunate, since there was now a fleeing dinosaur blocking their advance. Excellent.

In other movement, the spears moved up out of the western wood, with the swordmasters covering their right flank, while the western eagle dived back to take shelter behind the trees.

Magic saw me get 6 power dice to Mallas' 4 dispel dice, and I began getting the most out of the bargain-price High Magic spells. First, Shield went up on the silver helms on two dice - not essential but useful in the event that I couldn't down the stegadon. Mallas let this through. Then came Arrow Curse on the cohort, also on two dice but with a big total cast of 13. Mal, it turned out, was more worried about Flames of the Phoenix and let this through too. In the end, I didn't fancy a punt at Flames on 2 dice, so I went for Drain Magic and wasn't surprised to see it dispelled. No matter - the cursed cohort were in for a rough time.

My line of archers and war machines opened up on the skink cohort and watched with great satisfaction as their missiles flew with magnetic accuracy to bring winged death to their enemies. The skinks collapsed in droves - 22 of them were removed from the board.

Combat also went the way of the elves as my knights and their leaders smashed the stegadon to the ground and ended its life. Witnessing this, and suddenly aware of its own diminutive size, the nearby salamander panicked and fled from the dragon princes. Maintaining their discipline, however, both elven units reformed for next turn's advance.

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Elven sorcery and ranged power dominates the centre of the field...

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...while the cavalry seizes control of the western flank.

Lizardmen Turn 3

Both salamanders rallied, the western one facing my knights and the eastern my lions: it's back turned to the saurus warriors who were now stuck directly behind it. The two remaining skink units both advanced to try and slow my advance and cause some damage with their weapons. To the west, they closed in to try and shatter my archers (not being able to move far enough to both block off my knights and redirect them at a useful angle) while, in the east, the white lions were once again the target. The lizardman infantry proved extremely reluctant to move at all, however. The previous turn's hail of missiles had put all of them off marching to within close range of my repeaters (although, since they were stuck the saurus warriors had little choice here), so the majority stayed put while the temple guard brought their lord closer to my units in the hope that, where muscle was achieving little, magic would succeed. The spears would be the target for Dwellers this turn.

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More skinks move up to try and even the score.

Unfortunately for the lizards, the winds of magic proved fickle and gave me a wonderful 5/1 split. I chose to dedicate four dispel dice to dispelling a good Throne of Vines cast on the slann, failed to prevent Flesh to Stone on the skink skirmishers facing the archers with my one remaining die and, finally, watched regrowth go up on the cohort. Without the slann's throne, however, the spell proved lackluster on such cheap troops, raising only 3.

Shooting saw the skinks do what was expected of them, however: all but four of the green archers were darted to death and one white lion slumped to the ground, plagued with narcotic nightmares.

High Elves Turn 3

The green archers let out battle cries and charged the stone-stiffened skinks in the west, who held before declaring their stand-and-shoot against the western eagle who joined the attack. Despite the cover provided by the trees, the skinks managed to wound the bird as it closed. Out on the flank, the dragon princes charged the salamander, which wisely fled and left them moving 5". In the east, the other eagle leapt out from behind the blue archers and charged the skinks stood before the lions, their stand-and-shoot failing to wound him even once. The lions themselves withdrew slightly again - they had no intention of sacrificing position by charging a handful of skinks. Seredain and his helms, however, were eager to advance and galloped through the gap between the dragon princes and the archer/skink combat to threaten the cohort and its attendant scar veteran next turn. To support this attack, the spears moved up, bringing their valuable ranks, and the swordmasters covered their eastern side in turn.

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With the reptilian light units either fleeing or engaged in combat, the elven combat troops are free to move into the open field.

The magic phase saw more fickle fortune with a 6/1 split made worse by the slann channelling another dispel dice to make it seven dice apiece. I got shield up on the spearelves (who faced some possible cold one charges), but everything else was heavily dispelled.

Shooting was as reliable as ever, however, and another handful of skinks was removed from the rapidly-withering cohort.

In combat, the green archers and eagle did well against the T4 skinks and easily broke them, running them down for the loss of only one elf. In the east it was much the same story as the eagle there slew two skinks, stomped a third, broke the remainder and easily hunted them down, overrunning into the waiting salamander and provided yet another turn's hold-up for the saurus warriors, who by now must have been seething with frustration!

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The High Elves' light troops clear the field of skirmishers...

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and hold the saurus' advance for yet another turn.

Lizardmen Turn 4

Things were looking pretty bad for the lizards. The saurus were still far from a meaningful combat in the east and, worse, the depleted skink cohort couldn't hope to stand against the combined might of the silver helms and spearelves, while the saurus cavalry were powerless to help since they were completely covered by the advancing swordmasters, for whom they were no match. The only things which could turn the tide were a last stand by the scar veteran, proudly wearing his crown of command, and a good magic phase. Both would swing into action this turn.

Once the western salamander had rallied, the scar veteran spurred on his cold one and charged into the spearelves to prevent them joining the silver helms in attacking the cohort. Although the saurus cavalry may have been aware that the swordmasters had a counter-charge available against the saurus hero, they didn't feel confident in taking on this challenge and continued to hold their ground. The temple guard advanced, however, finally bringing their mage priest within Dwellers range of Seredain and his knights. The cohort, meanwhile, seeing that there was nothing for it but to face their enemy, marched right up into the knights' teeth to prevent me from simply going around them and threatening the slann directly. In the east, the saurus, unable move around the engaged salamander before them, contented themselves with reforming into horde formation.

I was praying for a weak magic phase and simply couldn't have gotten worse. Lightning streaked the sky and I found the enemy mage cackling as he gathered 12 power dice to his bosom. Sensing the danger, Archmage Lecalion channelled an extra dispel dice and whispered a prayer to the Moon Goddess. Game on.

First, the slann tossed up Throne of Vines, which I easily dispelled. If he was going to chuck six dice at Dwellers and get an irresistible force, I'd be damned if he wasn't going to suffer the miscast! On cue, the Slann gathered a huge amount of power to him - seven dice (six plus the free one), and threw them down. Only one roll of 6 emerged after all that, I expended my scroll, and suddenly the danger of this magic phase was over - I still had plenty of dice and my knights were safe. Ironically, once I'd dispelled Flesh to Stone on the cohort, the slann did manage to get irresistible force on a Regrowth for them. In the sweetest of ironies, two or three skinks came back to life as five temple guard were blown to smithereens and the slann himself took a wound. Never trust the winds of magic over arm and steel, my brothers!

In combat, the eastern salamander shrugged off the eagle's assault, put two wounds on him in reply and chased him off though, thankfully, the bird escaped. In the centre, meanwhile, the scar veteran's assault was met with a wall of elven steel. Although two elves were broken by the mighty hero, one spear point found a weak spot in his armour and wounded him! His crown shining, the saurus warrior held, however, and my knights resolved to commit to combat without the help of their citizen soldiers.

High Elves Turn 4

A blaring of warhorns brought the silver helms crashing into the ranks of the cohort, the dragon princes into the western salamander and the swordmasters into the flank of the engaged, and now besieged, saurus hero. The eastern eagle rallied, meanwhile, as the western eagle soared over the heads of the spearelves and landed right infront of the cold one cavalry and temple guard to prevent any counter-attack, should the swordmasters be unable to kill the scar-veteran and find themselves pinned. On the eastern flank, the white lions backed up again to allow their nearby allies to go to work on the saurus warriors with their missile fire. Lecalion, to lend his magical strength to the matter, marched east into the open field to bring the saurus within 24". The green archers - only three of whom remained - reasonably decided that their work was done and marched south toward the safety of the western wood.

Magic, yet again, saw Balance rule as I was granted a 12 dice phase of my own! The slann, stuck on 6 power dice after a failed channel roll, gulped and began to look nervous. As well he might: with my cheap High Magic spells, I was fully capable of casting everything I had - a very different experience from using the Lore of Life! First, Shield went up on the silver helms on two dice (to protect them from the kroxigor's axes), and was let through. Next, Arrow Attraction was cast upon the saurus warriors on two dice (a good roll of 9 for a result of 13), and likewise let through. Fury of Khaine was next, again on two dice, against the temple guard- killing two of them and leaving only three. The slann gulped and hovered to the front rank of his unit. I now had six dice against Mallas' six, Once again he was saving the bulk of them for Flames of the Phoenix, which I now targeted (since it had none of 8th's restrictions), against the engaged cohort, on three dice. Fate smiled on me as the spell went through with irresistible force and a bunch of skinks (though not that many since they were so few) were burned to a crisp, leaving barely more than a single rank plus the two kroxigor. Lecalion suffered only a wound in recompense and, even better, because he was wandering the open field in his ghost-robe, no elves were killed in the magical backlash. My remaining three power dice were, however, drained away and the magic phase was over. Fine by me.

Shooting, and all the elven longbows and bolt throwers trained upon the shuffling saurus warriors. A great volley scoured the sky and thudded amongst the lizardman ranks with terrible precision, bringing nine - practically a whole rank - down in one go. With two more turns left, the saurus couldn't expect to take on another round like this and still meet a combined assault from the lions and archers. Things were looking desperate for the lizardmen.

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The High Elves unleash hell...

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...with terrible consequences for the saurus warriors.

The combat phase sealed the deal as the swordmasters did exactly what they were trained to do. The saurus cavalry, being harassed into inaction by the damned eagle, watched powerless as their veteran chief was chopped to pieces by the elven warriors who, called on by the battle-cries of their prince, overran the fallen body of the scar veteran and slammed straight into the flank of the ragged cohort. The nearest kroxigor was cut down with ease (I dedicated a ton of attacks to him), along with a handful of skinks. Once the knights were done, only a single kroxigor (out of base contact when I allocated attacks) remained. The creature broke, fleeing from the swordmasters (who had the most ranks) and allowing the silver helms to take the pursuit move into the flank of the salamander fighting the dragon princes. Naturally, the beast died a terrible death and the cavalry were free to reform against the trapped saurus cavalry and shattered temple guard

At this stage, with all my units still alive, his centre overrun and the saurus warriors still trudging through no-man's land and now getting shot to pieces, Mallas called it.

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Crippled by shooting and harassment, the lizardmen's right flank is shattered by the charge of elven elites.

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The field - end of High Elf Turn 4.

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Victory to the High Elves!

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Last edited by Seredain on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:13 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:52 am 
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Ye gads, your shooting phase has some punch now, and Lecalion's use of High Magic made it punchier!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:28 am 
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Hi Seredain!

That was a much more difficult match up for Mallas. With more shooting (and spell augment) he had to close the distance fast only to meet your elites and cavalry. I think it was his mistake to deploy on the flank. Both armies moved on a spiral but your cavalry was much faster and while he didn't clear any units while doing so, you killed Stegadon and his skirmishers. Lizardmen attack didn't seem to be coordinated at all. In particular, Stegadon could stay at the flank and pose some threat before it was committed. I think that if Mallas wanted to go for refused flank then he should have refused it completely and have his units close to each other.

Your army became more of combined arms than entirely focused on cavalry hammer (which is still a center piece of your force). I really like the way you used High Magic but not because of the Curse (although it did help greatly) but due to the way you fooled Mallas into letting you go with other spells while he was waiting for Flames that never came. Your deployment reminds me about short Tactica section from 4th edition army book. They said back then that HE army is comprised from two elements, which seem to be contradictory. One part want to attack, the other wants to stay and shoot. You did a classical deployment, occupying the center with shooters (and small WL unit to protect them) while your close combat regiments secured the flank.

Just two things about the game:

1. Artillery dice has no "9" on it, so it must have been 8 or 10 :) But the main thing is that salamander shot over the heads of Lions :)

2. Why did you accept challenge from the skink shaman with the Prince? BSB could do the same job while the Prince could hack the Stegadon.

All in all I expected a better performance from Mallas but I guess we all have our less spectacular days :) What about best of 7 games then to give him a chance to come back? :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:43 am 
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Hi Bud,

I like your list. Its different to most things you see nowadays. Only Thing I would like to add is I would personally try and squeeze in 2 lion chariots. They can really pack a punch and could add to your list. Only thing you could really drop would be the sword masters or white lions though due to points.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:05 am 
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On High Magic, it does make some sense if you have just the one caster. In that it has a defensive buff, a good missile, a unit-hurting spell and a shooting buff, plus the fun stuff. In some ways my list is like a less efficient version of yours Seredain and while I've been tempted to try other Lores, I still think it's the best single option for this style of list.

When you dropped the White Lions back 2 1/2, were you aware that you could have moved 3? Specific example given in the rulebook of this, so obviously you round up in 8th edition. I speak as a 6th edition Wood Elf player whose archers spent much of their time moving backwards!

I agree with Swordmaster (always seem to be typing that!) that with your superiority in shooting and cavalry (and the fairly open terrain), Mallas needed to get the infantry into combat quicker.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Another great game, Seredain!

This game, in my opinion, is another example of how much effect the deployment phase has on games. Clever deployment and non-committal drops resulted in his key rank and file unit lumbering around uselessly for the entire game. Your poor opponent! I can only imagine how frustrating that must have been.

Some thoughts on your match:

- Deployment is a huge advantage that High Elves have over most other armies, with a well designed list being able to retain the committal drops much longer than most. Recently I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of the opponent and run through in my head how I would go about mitigating this advantage. My thoughts are that to truly compete with the High Elf deployment advantages, the opponent must be proactive instead of reactive. For example, the Saurus block drop was reactive - he had deployed the rest of his force waiting for you to drop something that would tip him off regarding your strategy. The problem is that this plays into the advantage of the High Elves; we can usually wait longer than the opponent. I think to effectively deploy against a list like yours, Seredain, your opponent must conceptualize a deployment in their head that makes a cavalry approach difficult (I'd use the board edge to cover one flank, for example) and stick to that, as opposed to reacting to your drops. What are your thoughts on this? What do you feel is the most effective method for an opponent to deploy vs. your list?

- I'm not sure how your local gaming community has ruled on the 7th edition spells being cast into combat, but opening that floodgate sets the stage for all sorts of ridiculous nonsense. Unless it has been resolved already, I think I'd avoid setting that precedent due to us standing to lose more than we gain. Things like the Dreaded 13th into combat makes me sick to my stomach lol.

- Very flukey magic phases, but I think it really illustrates some of the shortcomings of life. You were able to prioritize effectively and keep his troops from getting effective buffs. Raising D3+1 skinks can't compete with the types of casualties your shooting was causing - could there be a better target for our S3 bowfire? Loved seeing that, it was like a hot knife through butter.

- I'm also surprised those repeaters lasted as long as they did with the amount of poisoned shots he had available. I'm guessing he underestimated the effectiveness of your shooting phase when paired with Curse of Arrow Attraction

All in all, another great match-up. I know all too well how fickle the magic phase can be, and this game really showed that a good general should be able to adapt and play on despite some critical outlying rolls.

D

@ Swordmaster - No worries! I just don't want people to interpret my bringing up the Lore as me being insistent that somebody *needs* to take it. I just love hearing people justify and back up their choices, as it typically reveals a great deal more about their strategy. ie. "I understand that X is good, but justify how it is better than Y" so to speak.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Definitely a game won in deployment. He did not even put his combat units on the 12" line, costing them a few inches of movement. I hugely disagree with putting the Engine out on the flank like that. It cannot guard a flank by itself, and its value goes down greatly when away from the Slann. Plus without nearby skinks, the Engine explosion is less useful. I think he made the whole situation worse by charging when he did.

Could the Terradon not drop rocks on something before dying? With a total of 32" of movement, they should be able to reach something, and probably reach the Swordmasters.

I'm a bit surprised you sent the DPs in to flank the Stegadon. Were they unable to go elsewhere? I expect Seredain and Caradath could take it down reliably if you pop the Talisman of Loec. Even more so if you had put one Seredain attack on the Stegadon round 1.
@Swordmaster: Mounts fight in the challenge as well. That is why the skink challenged - to prevent anyone else attacking at all.

Slann cannot throw 6+1=7 dice at a spell. The extra dice are defined as power dice, so the cap of 6 applies.

Can anyone point me to a detailed battle report where a small sized Temple Guard unit is useful? I have read several where under 15 TG are pretty much useless, and that fits my own paper thinking (my Lizardmen don't run TG).


Last edited by dabber on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Good game sir!

Deploying refused flank with M4 infantry against an army which has vastly better shooting makes no sense to me whatsoever. Additionally, sacrificing the Stegadon so early helped to really seal the deal. I second the comment about the challenge though - why not let the Prince hack apart the monster?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Awesome game Seredain, definitely a balanced, combined-arms list that looks fun to play with and against!

Dabber pointed out some of the rules items to come up from what I saw. Question for you though:

Was the Stegadon still in the challenge after the Priest died? This is an 8th Ed change, the monster stays in the challenge even if the riding character dies, until the monster (or opponent) dies/breaks/etc. I guess I figured it would still take a little longer (1-2 combat phases more) to finish it off.

Love how much damage you did to the Cohort with shooting, though I'm surprised none of the Krox had died to shooting up to that point - were you randomizing?

I hate coming off as 'that guy who points out all the rules errors while watching a game', but you seem like the type who would want to know this stuff. :)

@Mallas:

Deploying the Ancient Steg on the flank was a bold and risky manuevre, but I think you might have been able to make it work if: You'd charged the Dragon Princes - Would you say that the distance was about eqaul here (the picture of deployment showed them as closer, but I can't say it stayed that way)? I think via impact hits, Burning Alignment, and Segadon attacks, you might have been able to kill the unit - breaking through Seredains line (though not sure if he had room to flee the charge). You'd also likely be able to get that turns BA into the Silver Helms too. From there, the Bus might have to spend some time reacting to you.

Even if you didn't break through (or even failed the charge), when the counter charge from the Bus came (asumption here), you could just challenge anyway. Seredain would still probably accept with his Prince, who gains no bonuses in combat power by charging. Just an idea for you here - good luck with him next time!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:07 pm 
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GhostWarrior wrote:
Was the Stegadon still in the challenge after the Priest died? This is an 8th Ed change, the monster stays in the challenge even if the riding character dies, until the monster (or opponent) dies/breaks/etc.
Wow, I had not noticed that one, but you are correct. Page 103, for everyone else. So the Dragon Prince charge could not hurt the Stegadon, and Seredain probably should have been allocating on the Stegadon exclusively, and popping the Talisman of Loec to ensure it died before the Engine could explode again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:27 am 
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dabber wrote:
GhostWarrior wrote:
Was the Stegadon still in the challenge after the Priest died? This is an 8th Ed change, the monster stays in the challenge even if the riding character dies, until the monster (or opponent) dies/breaks/etc.
Wow, I had not noticed that one, but you are correct. Page 103, for everyone else. So the Dragon Prince charge could not hurt the Stegadon, and Seredain probably should have been allocating on the Stegadon exclusively, and popping the Talisman of Loec to ensure it died before the Engine could explode again.


Oh yeah good catch! In this case it of course makes a lot more sense to accept the Challenge with the Prince ;)

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In regards to Seredain personally fighting the Skink priest, even if the rule wasn't that, I would have done the same. 3 S6 attacks from a noble are great, but against a 2+ armor save are no guarantee. 4 S7 is far more likely to silence the Engine; that is what is important in combating an Ancient Steg, not the Steg itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Wow, excellent game, Seredain! Nice one. No victory points conceded! :)

The deployment was really good, I'm going to have to learn how to deploy properly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Oberon wrote:
In regards to Seredain personally fighting the Skink priest, even if the rule wasn't that, I would have done the same. 3 S6 attacks from a noble are great, but against a 2+ armor save are no guarantee. 4 S7 is far more likely to silence the Engine; that is what is important in combating an Ancient Steg, not the Steg itself.
No one doubts Seredain taking the challenge. With the rules clarified by GhostWarrior, the only tactical debate is him killing off the priest. Personally I would have smashed the Stegadon itself. You have two combat rounds to kill the Steg before the Engine can explode again, and 8 S7 averages almost the 5 wounds. Pop the Talisman round 2 and the Steg should go reliably down. And if Seredain rolls really bad the first round, he can just obliterate the Priest round 2. With the Slann way out of range, there is no real risk. Killing the Stegadon is what matters.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:39 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Oberon wrote:
In regards to Seredain personally fighting the Skink priest, even if the rule wasn't that, I would have done the same. 3 S6 attacks from a noble are great, but against a 2+ armor save are no guarantee. 4 S7 is far more likely to silence the Engine; that is what is important in combating an Ancient Steg, not the Steg itself.
No one doubts Seredain taking the challenge. With the rules clarified by GhostWarrior, the only tactical debate is him killing off the priest. Personally I would have smashed the Stegadon itself. You have two combat rounds to kill the Steg before the Engine can explode again, and 8 S7 averages almost the 5 wounds. Pop the Talisman round 2 and the Steg should go reliably down. And if Seredain rolls really bad the first round, he can just obliterate the Priest round 2. With the Slann way out of range, there is no real risk. Killing the Stegadon is what matters.

What would have been the tactical edge to killing off the beast in two rounds? I believe that would leave the priest in challenge with him for a third round if played per the rules GhostWarrior points out. So, regardless of who is targeted first, he'd be tied up for 3 rounds of combat typically, right? I believe the death of the steg only kills off the skink crew but not any character riding per my last reading of the LM book.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:42 pm 
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By himself, a skink priest is not Stubborn. You kill the steg, he needs insane courage or maybe a 3 to stick. The Stegadon is Stubborn and holds better than half the time.


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