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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:08 am 
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No, I am sure it is 2D6 hits and I will check that when I get home today.

Nope, D6:
"All enemy units within 2D6", even if engaged in close combat, take D6 strength 4 hits with no armour saves allowed. Undead, Daemon and Forest Spirit units take D6 strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed." (LM book p.55)
You may be getting mixed up with the giant blowpipes, which fire 2D6 shots each.

Great battle report as always!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:16 am 
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tethlis the slayer wrote:
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No, I am sure it is 2D6 hits and I will check that when I get home today.

Nope, D6:
"All enemy units within 2D6", even if engaged in close combat, take D6 strength 4 hits with no armour saves allowed. Undead, Daemon and Forest Spirit units take D6 strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed." (LM book p.55)
You may be getting mixed up with the giant blowpipes, which fire 2D6 shots each.

Great battle report as always!


Gah my bad. Anyway, what's done is done.

You posted rules, you in trouble. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:15 pm 
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I really like this battle report because it was full of ideas countered by ideas which in turn were countered by some more creative thinking. No charging headlong against whoever happens to be at your path. I dare to say that this game was in a great part decided in its movement phase.

Mallas, you played as a true Lizardmen, with coldblooded efficiency and not rushing into combat recklessly. By cuntering quicker cavalry of Seredain with proper positioning of your units you definitely denied his main strangth and forced him to re-think his tactics this game. You almost got him :)

Seredain, you played your characters the way I always thought they should be played. With great flexibility. They could not achieve anything by staying with a unit so you moved them as an army-of-two and won the day. Truly stuff of legends and they way heroes should act (at least in the world of fantasy :)). I am just wondering if Mallas could do something similar, abandon Temple Guard and move Slann on its own thus preventing that charge. Would that make it a draw?

In any case thanks a lot for posting that report and taking time to make comments from both sides. This a great thing indeed! I hope we will have a rematch at some stage too :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I am just wondering if Mallas could do something similar, abandon Temple Guard and move Slann on its own thus preventing that charge. Would that make it a draw?


As long as there is TG still standing, the Slann MUST stay with them as a unit.

I've always wanted to try the Slann either by himself or inside a Saurus unit, as TG are just soooo expensive compared to Saurus. TG only have a +1 AS difference vs shooting only, 4+ save in combat (same as Saurus), +1 WS and STR over Saurus, who get a 6+ parry/ward save. The only issue is the Slann can't sit in the second rank when it joins other units, which would make him vulnerable to combat attacks and he is piss weak, WS 3, 1 attack and T3.

I just can't afford to lose models from my other units. But what I have thought about is instead of running the Scar-Vet on a cold one, I could pop him in the Saurus unit with CoC, reduce the Saurus unit from 30 to 24 models and then can afford another rank of 5 TG models to reinforce that unit.

Otherwise I am really happy with my list and the way it plays.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Mallas wrote:
I've always wanted to try the Slann either by himself or inside a Saurus unit, as TG are just soooo expensive compared to Saurus. TG only have a +1 AS difference vs shooting only, 4+ save in combat (same as Saurus), +1 WS and STR over Saurus, who get a 6+ parry/ward save. The only issue is the Slann can't sit in the second rank when it joins other units, which would make him vulnerable to combat attacks and he is piss weak, WS 3, 1 attack and T3.
The Slann is Toughness 4, and with 5 wounds and a 4+ ward save, is surprisingly hard to kill (baring killing blow). Even more so with Lore of Life, as he constantly heals himself. From what I've seen, Slanns are almost always killed by breaking him, not by hacking him down in close combat. (Or killed outside close combat, like miscasts and spells).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:30 pm 
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dabber wrote:
Mallas wrote:
I've always wanted to try the Slann either by himself or inside a Saurus unit, as TG are just soooo expensive compared to Saurus. TG only have a +1 AS difference vs shooting only, 4+ save in combat (same as Saurus), +1 WS and STR over Saurus, who get a 6+ parry/ward save. The only issue is the Slann can't sit in the second rank when it joins other units, which would make him vulnerable to combat attacks and he is piss weak, WS 3, 1 attack and T3.
The Slann is Toughness 4, and with 5 wounds and a 4+ ward save, is surprisingly hard to kill (baring killing blow). Even more so with Lore of Life, as he constantly heals himself. From what I've seen, Slanns are almost always killed by breaking him, not by hacking him down in close combat. (Or killed outside close combat, like miscasts and spells).


Fair enough, but if he is running in the front line I am losing a lot of attacks too. I just can't see myself running him in another unit, unless I jump him around to avoid combat like Mr S does with his Wiz.

I'll need to try it out in a few games to see how it plays outs.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:35 pm 
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You could use him in a Horde of Saurus. This would decrease the amount of models needed for a Horde (he takes up the space of 4 saurus) thus keeping the damage output efficiency.

26 Saurus deployed 6x4 gets 18 attacks. 26 Saurus deployed 3x10 (with the Slann in the unit of course) gets 32 attacks. If you stretch the first example to deploying 10 wide, you get 36 attacks. In other words, playing Saurus in Horde formation is a fairly effective way of playing the Slann - assuming you know he'll be safe. What's more, if you charge you can place the Slann strategically, denying the enemy a chance to strike at your Saurus (thus reducing combat resolution since your slann is tougher and keeping the Saurus alive longer). With Life magic, this is hardly ever a problem.

Can you killing blow a Slann without Heroic Killing Blow?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
You could use him in a Horde of Saurus. This would decrease the amount of models needed for a Horde (he takes up the space of 4 saurus) thus keeping the damage output efficiency.

26 Saurus deployed 6x4 gets 18 attacks. 26 Saurus deployed 3x10 (with the Slann in the unit of course) gets 32 attacks. If you stretch the first example to deploying 10 wide, you get 36 attacks. In other words, playing Saurus in Horde formation is a fairly effective way of playing the Slann - assuming you know he'll be safe. What's more, if you charge you can place the Slann strategically, denying the enemy a chance to strike at your Saurus (thus reducing combat resolution since your slann is tougher and keeping the Saurus alive longer). With Life magic, this is hardly ever a problem.

Can you killing blow a Slann without Heroic Killing Blow?


I'm not sure about the KB rules, but I like the idea of playing an offensive slann that way. Very cheeky indeed.

I'll have to give it a go.

I also prefer the parry ward over spears. If I went 3 x 10 with spears, it is a waste of points I think, since I am almost always striking last with I1. So I would surely expect to lose the back line against a SM/WL/SH/DP matchup. The spears would make sense to me in a 6 wide formation, as long as I am at least 5-6 ranks deep, to allow for a buffer.

Although mathammer was never my forte.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Can you killing blow a Slann without Heroic Killing Blow?
Yes. He is unit type infantry (so Saurus or TG give him "look out sir").


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Mallas wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
You could use him in a Horde of Saurus. This would decrease the amount of models needed for a Horde (he takes up the space of 4 saurus) thus keeping the damage output efficiency.

26 Saurus deployed 6x4 gets 18 attacks. 26 Saurus deployed 3x10 (with the Slann in the unit of course) gets 32 attacks. If you stretch the first example to deploying 10 wide, you get 36 attacks. In other words, playing Saurus in Horde formation is a fairly effective way of playing the Slann - assuming you know he'll be safe. What's more, if you charge you can place the Slann strategically, denying the enemy a chance to strike at your Saurus (thus reducing combat resolution since your slann is tougher and keeping the Saurus alive longer). With Life magic, this is hardly ever a problem.

Can you killing blow a Slann without Heroic Killing Blow?


I'm not sure about the KB rules, but I like the idea of playing an offensive slann that way. Very cheeky indeed.

I'll have to give it a go.

I also prefer the parry ward over spears. If I went 3 x 10 with spears, it is a waste of points I think, since I am almost always striking last with I1. So I would surely expect to lose the back line against a SM/WL/SH/DP matchup. The spears would make sense to me in a 6 wide formation, as long as I am at least 5-6 ranks deep, to allow for a buffer.

Although mathammer was never my forte.



I just realised that the 3rd rank can attack in horde without the use of spears, so ignore me. But I still prefer not to horde when I can help it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:36 pm 
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The thing with using the Saurus as a Horde is that this is when the Slann takes away the least potential, relative to the unit overall. Example: you have 30 saurus. Deploying them 6 wide with a slann gives you 12 attacks. Without the slann you get 18. That's an increase of 50% should you remove the Slann. Looking at it the other way around, if you have Saurus deployed 6x5 without a slann, they lose a third of their attacks if you include the Slann.

In Horde, the equation changes drastically by taking the minimum required for a Horde you hardly lose any potential at all (below 10%). As such, it's a very cost-effective way of fielding him. If you don't want to Horde them, you can always leave the unit with the Slann (they're not TG) or simply deploy them deep (6x5 / 5x6) and lose some attacks.

Now I'm not an expert on Lizardmen. I know that most people take a big unit of TG, sometimes Horde-big. The way you fielded your Slann last game though was a pretty big points-dump as your TG effectively did nothing all game.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
The way you fielded your Slann last game though was a pretty big points-dump as your TG effectively did nothing all game.


Agreed. But like I said, I was trying out a command bunker, which obviously did not work out against Mr S, but has been quite successful in our friendly comp that we play.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:15 pm 
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The idea of a command bunker might not necessarily be bad: if you had played it more aggressively and kept Seredain's cavalry away, they could really have threatened the middle. The only things the Elves could muster here were the Spears and Lions. The added power of the TG could easily have turned this upside down. Your huge unit of Skinks can and probably will tie up his Swordmasters indefinitely. If you dedicate the saurus block to his SHelms and use Terradons as redirectors, you could very well devastate his middle. Since you field cavalry, you most likely would've been able to catch his Archmage and rear elements as well.

Oh the beauty of diversity! Gotta love this game :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:21 pm 
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In general I agree completely that a bunker should be as small as you can get away with. This depends of course what level of shooting/magic you are likely to come up against and how effective your other units will be at screening it. It's not like our Core bunkers though because as mentioned TG are more expensive and are excellent fighters that aren't seeing combat.

My last game against Lizardmen involved a solo Slann who I'm damn sure was Ethereal. It's obviously viable and was in many of the most competitive lists under 7th edition. Whether it's got the same potential in 8th I don't know.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:30 pm 
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Agreed with Spellarcher. The question is whether the unit is a bunker; so that it's there to support the Slann, or if it's a fighting block; so that the Slann is there to support it. With a Life approach (Earthblood in particular) I believe the latter holds a lot of merit: if you're taking a small bunker, at least try and make it fight.

Another headache for this discussion is the abundance of Grey Seers who just LOVE to cast that Dreaded 13th. This is a serious threat to lots of units, but I believe few (if any?) fear it as much as a Slann in a small bunker!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Mallas wrote:
unless I jump him around to avoid combat like Mr S does with his Wiz.


Shadow's Lore Attribute may have some interesting applications here for this.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble here, boys - burning alignment only does d6 hits. For the characters running in a pair, that isn't a big deal (if it was, the archmage would've been a darn slight closer to give some wounds back, believe me!). Also remember that it only has a 2d6 range and, on the first turn when Mal should've burned (dude... ;)), the characters were just over 5" away (so 6 rounding up)- not a sure-fire hit. In any event, if I recall correctly (Mal- you'll remember this), I think the ancient steg actually chose to put the shield up on turn 4, rather than forget to do anything (I remember the bolt thrower coming up against the ward save that turn when shooting the TG's). In the circumstances it was the wrong choice but it was, at least, a choice.

Certainly, though, the white lions wouldn't have killed the steg in combat had they been buzzed once or twice. However, if Mal had buzzed them that first turn (4), I would've Flesh to Stoned them the following turn (5) instead of the swordmasters (who, let's be honest, didn't get any benefit anyway what with those krox rolling like gods), so the 2nd round of burning wouldn't have mattered very much. Forgetting was annoying for Mal, but remembering to cast burning alignment would've saved the Stegadon, not the Slann. In the end, the temple guard simply couldn't wound my characters.


Regardless of D6 vs 2D6, still would have hurt your characters, and possibly killed ur BSB, and if he got lucky, he could have killed both. Either way, though, with one of the 2 characters gone, and his steg surviving to his turn 6, a second burning ailment may have finished off the final character. You may have still gotten the slann, though maybe not. I have been burnt by burning ailment too many times to not realize its potential devastation.

Some Mathhammer: say averages rule in this scenario. Average range is 7", which hits your characters in turn 5. D6 hits is 3.5 hits average. Lets say he is below average and does only 3. He distributes 1 to Seredain, 2 to BSB (attacker chooses to distribute I believe). There is roughly a 44% chance the BSB dies in that situation, and Seredain is left alone against the TGs. With 3 fewer attacks to help Seredain, its no guarantee that seredain kills all the TG and the slann. Either way, the steg survives to turn 6 assuming the WLs took damage, and when he casts it again, he possibly kills Seredain and the WLs. Maybe the slann is alive still, maybe not. Either way, casting it twice could have potentially eliminated both of your characters, gotten their bonuses for killing General and BSB, dropped your WLs, and the steg would have survived. Thats about a 1k pt swing even if the slann doesn't survive. Quite a swing in VPs from using an item three times :D.

So Mallas, moral of the story: don't forget the ability of your steg! :D.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:34 am 
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jwg20 wrote:
Regardless of D6 vs 2D6, still would have hurt your characters, and possibly killed ur BSB, and if he got lucky, he could have killed both. Either way, though, with one of the 2 characters gone, and his steg surviving to his turn 6, a second burning ailment may have finished off the final character. You may have still gotten the slann, though maybe not. I have been burnt by burning ailment too many times to not realize its potential devastation.

Some Mathhammer: say averages rule in this scenario. Average range is 7", which hits your characters in turn 5. D6 hits is 3.5 hits average. Lets say he is below average and does only 3. He distributes 1 to Seredain, 2 to BSB (attacker chooses to distribute I believe).

Jwg20,

I believe the owner of the models distributes hits across the unit, distributed as evenly as possible, then wounds are rolled. So those 3.5 hits then have to wound (on a 3+) and, on average, one misses and you have 2 or 2.5 wounds. So if, for example, three hits are caused, I get to allocate one to Caradath and two to Seredain (as my choice), before to-wound rolls are made. If these wounds go through, of course, I keep the archmage close and cast cheap spells (throne, awakening, stone), with a few dice each next turn to add on lost wounds, and/or I just redirect Flesh to make them immune. Remember, though, that the steg didn't forget to do anything on the earlier turn (buzzing opportunity number 1), but chose to activate the shield instead - presumably to protect the tiny temple guard unit from getting worn down with a bolt volley (which saved them a couple of models).

In summary, what 'should have happened' and what 'did happen' is a level of speculation which is unhelpful here, since each theoretical event would determine a different response from the other player from that which actually took place. For example: if my heroes had been threatened with death, my spell-choices would've changed and flesh to stone would have been up on them next turn instead of the swordmasters. If the white lions had been hit by buzzing and I was forced to put Flesh on the characters, I could've simply challenged the stegadon with the white lion champion, had a chance at killing the priest and preserved the unit for the draw.

On this basis, of course, we may as well say that the swordmasters shouldn't have received 6 hits in one combat phase from the Krox and then 5 in the next, because it was against averages. We may also suggest that, if Flesh to Stone hadn't gone up on the saurus because of my scroll (as was expected on averages), we'd be looking at a different game (dead saurus horde, cavalry in rear, swordmasters overrun into flank of cohort). If I'd got two Dwellers casts off, of the three or four casts attempted on 6 dice, we'd likewise, on average, be looking at a different game (dead slann): let alone the paucity of power dice I actually received in all magic phases bar one! In the end, funny things happened and both players dealt with or adapted to them to create the tense all-or-nothing standoff we saw at the end (I'll talk more about Mal's excellent redeployment move in Turn 1 a little later).

Speaking about different dice rolls in isolation, therefore, doesn't really get us anywhere, since it presupposes (wrongly) that a) one particular dice roll determined the whole game above any other; and b) that the opposing player would do nothing different in response to these theoretical threats if they had occurred. In the end, what happened happened and, as players, we had to make consequential choices.

The above consideration of the virtues of Burning Alignment is a useful one, then, but we should look at it in the context of the game as a whole and not in isolation (since the latter would grant it too much importance). Ultimately, for me this game ranks very highly in terms of the complexity of the movement phase and the slings of outrageous fortune which, combined, made it one of the most exciting games I've played. For so much of the game (mostly in the magic phase), I felt like I was fighting an uphill battle but there were, in fact, so many crucial little episodes that it's worth me going through some of them to look at the 'moves, chances and consequences' which, in the end, would have a lasting impact on the game and prove the key to victory! Battle Review coming soon...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:51 am 
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Well, firstly, you are correct about distribution. He would have had to deal 4 hits for you to have to distribute 2 to the BSB. I was mistaken there.

I did it not post to point out to you that you could have lost, but rather to point out to Mallas how important that item can be. It was a critique of his decisions and help him as a general, not to do anything to take away from your win (which was well deserved, given your luck this game).

Also, I am aware that averages don't work out in games. I merely used average as a comfortable medium rather than calculating every possibly outcome (though I can calculate that if you desire :D). It was possible that he only dealt one hit, and no wounds, but also possible that he deal 6 hits and 6 wounds. Trust me, I understand statistics perfectly well :D. I was merely using an example of what would happen 'on average' to illustrate to Mallas why I would have done things differently than he did (since I was under the assumption that the BR responses were geared to critique both of you).

Also, to say that some rolls aren't more important than others is incorrect. Your casting of dwellers with IF was easily more important than how many hits your archers got in any particular roll, and many would agree that an opponent rolling insane courage when needed is obviously more of a game changing roll than passing a steadfast LD test (though failing a steadfast leadership test is equally game changing). The sad thing is that there are often games where one or two rolls can change the entire outcome of the game, and the use of burning ailment could have been one of them. While normally I would agree that speculating an outcome given a different decision is pointless given how people can change strategy in response, an event in turn 5 allows this type of speculation, since options were limited for each player in their one remaining turn to compensate for any action. The use and roll of the burning ailment easily could have been more important than any other roll, and it was sufficiently late in the game that there would have been little you could have done to kill the slann if he got lucky. If he did it and got lucky, both of your characters could have died, which directly changes the dynamic of turn 6 (in addition to giving him a healthy helping of VPs). Maybe you would have protected them if they were threatened, but the fact of the matter is that at the moment he could have used it to hit them (his turn 5) they were unprotected, which means it was a perfect time to use that ability, and it could have had a huge impact on the game. Protecting them via magic in turn 6 after they are threatened does nothing if they are already dead.

Like I said, it was nothing of a critique for you, nor was it geared towards taking away from your win. Rather, it was geared towards pointing out what Mallas could have done differently, and the mathhammer argument after was to illustrate why I think that was a good decision.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:38 am 
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jwg20 wrote:
Also, to say that some rolls aren't more important than others is incorrect. Your casting of dwellers with IF was easily more important than how many hits your archers got in any particular roll...

Haha! Well yes there's no denying that. Perhaps better to say that "one really important roll isn't more game-changing than another really really important roll." :)

jwg20 wrote:
Maybe you would have protected them if they were threatened, but the fact of the matter is that at the moment he could have used it to hit them (his turn 5) they were unprotected, which means it was a perfect time to use that ability, and it could have had a huge impact on the game. Protecting them via magic in turn 6 after they are threatened does nothing if they are already dead.

It's a funny thing. When casting my spells on Turn 4 or 5 I had, just like Mal it turned out, pretty much forgotten about burning alignment: the engine had been putting up the shield so regularly that I'd slipped subconsciously (and dangerously) into thinking it wouldn't do anything else. The averages were with me to be sure but, up to that point, this had not been a game of averages. And if Mal had rolled 6 wounds on burning? I would have wept, raised my hands to the sky, cried out "Why, Lord, why do you hate me?!" and probably called GG.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:02 am 
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So rematch before Christmas? 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Mallas wrote:
So rematch before Christmas? 8)

You're on! Everyone knows lizards don't perform well in the cold...

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Hi Seredain! I've been following this thread intently - and usually I don't have much advice to give, but with this game you just blew me away. The way you adapted to Mallas' tactics (which were pretty amazing in themselves) was just... Amazing. :)

That was probably the most entertaining report I have ever read. Very good show, from both players.
It's a pity I live all the way down in Aus, cause I would love the chance to play a game against you, but alas, it cannot be! :?

Once again, a brilliant report.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:22 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
My last game against Lizardmen involved a solo Slann who I'm damn sure was Ethereal. It's obviously viable and was in many of the most competitive lists under 7th edition. Whether it's got the same potential in 8th I don't know.


The Slann can be immune to mundane weapons for 50 points. I have tried that one out, but it he never got attacked by mundane weapons anyways. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:23 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Mallas wrote:
So rematch before Christmas? 8)

You're on! Everyone knows lizards don't perform well in the cold...


Yeah, but my LM have central heating haha!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:30 am 
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Mallas wrote:
The Slann can be immune to mundane weapons for 50 points. I have tried that one out, but it he never got attacked by mundane weapons anyways. :D

I think if he's running solo it's a very good idea. I had Reaver Bow so could have shot him but without Seafarer or spells like Enchanted Blades it wasn't worth it.

Of course he can always hide in a unit if necessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:53 am 
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Battle Review 2

We've had lots of great posts in the past few days so, rather than deal with them all at once in a marathon sesh, I'll take snippets at a time and go through a few of the issues piece by piece!

The Slann Bunker

I'm actually a big fan of the little TG leadership bunker. First off, though, let's look at its weaknesses.

Like any temple guard unit, once it's down, I know where the slann is going. Since I got to deploy my silver helms (and then characters) afterwards this game, I was (and typically always will be) able to account for the slann's location in deployment exactly how I please.

Secondly, size. With their low initiative and average toughness (T4, 4+ save), this unit cannot protect the slann for more than a round of combat, against serious opposition, without full-on magical buffing. Typically, if I get my knights into combat with it, it's dead. It cannot, therefore, stand in the line of battle and this will reduce the lizardman army's frontage, making its flanks correspondingly more vulnerable should it venture into the open field.

In effect, since other combat units will have to form a protective shield around it, the unit may seriously limit the army's ability to move out against manoeuvreable armies like combined-arms high elf lists. As Curu suggested during the report, had magic gone more my way, Mallas would have been in an uncomfortable position: move out against my infantry to stop me casting Dwellers every turn, potentially opening up counter-charges or a route for my units around the flanks to the vulnerable bunker, or stand in a solid defensive ring but keep suffering the casts? With a Dwellers-based magic phase rolling well, this is a very uncomfortable situation to be in. The army may find similar issues against shooty lists which also have access to some fast attack elements.

To act as the rearguard of a shieldwall of troops does, however, suit the slann bunker's strengths and these are pretty potent:

1 - The Banner of Discipline. The temple guard have access to a magical banner and this one makes the Slann the source of the best leadership in the game: cold-blooded re-rollable leadership 10? Yes please. The unit's small size, and typical location sat in the rear of the army, allows enough free movement to make sure this leadership gets within range of the units it needs to. Combined with the assets of Life Lore, and you have an army filled with anvils: even a small saurus cavalry unit turns solid when its T8 and parked near this slann.

2 - The unit is small and cheap enough to allow the slann to do his thing without overly crippling the army. I see the attractiveness of big temple guard units - they protect their master better by being able to take hits and, since they can take damage, they can much more reliably dish it out. The problem these units have, however, is that they are fundamentally schizophrenic. The slann wants to be casting spells where they are most needed and the temple guard want to be in combat: on many occasions, these aims won't match up and the lizardmen will find they are wasting points and/or tactical opportunities. The small temple guard unit brings the focus back onto the slann himself and allows him to do his thing without worrying about the number of wasted warriors he's dragging around. The unit also, of course makes a far less damaging target for Dwellers (though this is slightly academic since, if you get a chance at Dwellering the slann, you're likely to take it!).

3 - Much as my archmage does, the Life slann makes up for the weakness of his own unit. With regrowth, regeneration and flesh to stone available, a slann can often make do with a relatively small bodyguard. This keeps the TG benefits (basically unbreakable, immune to psychology, extra wounds protecting you most important model), but limits some TG weaknesses by allowing points to be spent elsewhere.

SpellArcher wrote:
Mallas wrote:
The Slann can be immune to mundane weapons for 50 points. I have tried that one out, but it he never got attacked by mundane weapons anyways. :D

I think if he's running solo it's a very good idea. I had Reaver Bow so could have shot him but without Seafarer or spells like Enchanted Blades it wasn't worth it.

Of course he can always hide in a unit if necessary.

I like this idea but, all comers, a solo slann is looking vulnerable to lots of stuff - you mentioned the Reaver Bow, SA, but there's a bunch of ranged magical attacks out there that might ping the Slann at range or hit him hard as an individual unit (eg the Comet). In these situations his floaty plinth becomes something of a liability. I see the benefit in putting him in saurus warriors against these sort of opponents, though I probably wouldn't want my expensive toad sat in the front rank as a matter of course. Opens up deployment options, though - the temple guard are always a bit of a give-away!

Fighting the Bunker - a summary

1 - Put it under enough pressure at range to force an advance. Heavy shooting or scary ranged magic (Dwellers, Pit of Shades, anti-character Death spells) will do this.

2 - Once the lizards come forward, either pick on the units lying outside of the slann's range or move around the flanks to threaten the bunker itself. Even if this only forces the slann to make himself invincible with regeneration and a T8 bodyguard, this means that the main lizard combat units will lose out on the buffs and become vulnerable.

3 - If you can, avoid running into the middle of the shield wall while the slann is sat safely behind. If he gets a good phase and you can't stop enough of his spells (like, oh I don't know... an irresistible flesh to stone on a horde of saurus...), you will find yourself running into a tough, regenerating and regrowing lizardman army with re-rollable T10 leadership. As High Elves, you don't want to be stuck in a combat grind, and grinding armies don't get much better than this.

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:41 am 
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Seredain wrote:
3 - Much as my archmage does, the Life slann makes up for the weakness of his own unit. With regrowth, regeneration and flesh to stone available, a slann can often make do with a relatively small bodyguard. This keeps the TG benefits (basically unbreakable, immune to psychology, extra wounds protecting you most important model), but limits some TG weaknesses by allowing points to be spent elsewhere.

Whenever I put a list together I'm a bit wary of stuff that needs buffing to do it's job. Firstly, that's a spell you aren't casting on your combat units and secondly if your opponent can shut the phase down (+5 and scroll?) he can really cause some pain. I guess Life is the right Lore for this approach though.

Seredain wrote:
like this idea but, all comers, a solo slann is looking vulnerable to lots of stuff - you mentioned the Reaver Bow, SA, but there's a bunch of ranged magical attacks out there that might ping the Slann at range or hit him hard as an individual unit (eg the Comet). In these situations his floaty plinth becomes something of a liability. I see the benefit in putting him in saurus warriors against these sort of opponents, though I probably wouldn't want my expensive toad sat in the front rank as a matter of course. Opens up deployment options, though - the temple guard are always a bit of a give-away!


Here's where I think the cheap skink cohorts come into play. My opponent was running 10's (and bloody annoying they were too!) but slightly bigger and that's enough bodies to keep the Slann safe for a turn. I guess you suss out your opponent's damage potential at the start of the game and keep potential bunkers close if necessary.

Some nice ideas sir, especially the Standard of Discipline!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Another possibilty would be the 2+ ward (lizardmen army book) against any kind of ranged attacks. So the slann should be safe from cannons and every spell which does direct damage (even death magic) or magic missiles. In that case you don´t need the bunker and have a lot of free points. Additional salamaders or scar-vets are allways handy against high elves.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Battle Review (2)

Gwydion wrote:
Another possibilty would be the 2+ ward (lizardmen army book) against any kind of ranged attacks. So the slann should be safe from cannons and every spell which does direct damage (even death magic) or magic missiles. In that case you don´t need the bunker and have a lot of free points. Additional salamaders or scar-vets are allways handy against high elves.

Certainly if it worked against literally anything that had a 'range', including spells, it would be pretty amazing. I'm not very familiar with this ability but, if it works like the engine, you're looking at the 2+ ward only working against actual missiles (ie shooting phase missiles), rather than spells. Worth a look.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
3 - Much as my archmage does, the Life slann makes up for the weakness of his own unit. With regrowth, regeneration and flesh to stone available, a slann can often make do with a relatively small bodyguard. This keeps the TG benefits (basically unbreakable, immune to psychology, extra wounds protecting you most important model), but limits some TG weaknesses by allowing points to be spent elsewhere.

Whenever I put a list together I'm a bit wary of stuff that needs buffing to do it's job. Firstly, that's a spell you aren't casting on your combat units and secondly if your opponent can shut the phase down (+5 and scroll?) he can really cause some pain. I guess Life is the right Lore for this approach though.

That's well said. Of course, when protected by a well-deployed front line, the TG's won't need buffing, but it's good to know that Life Lore is there as a backup. Regeneration is always a spell to get up if you've got the dice to spare, either as a last resort for combat or if you just want to allow your little bodyguard to be a bit more missile-proof. Flaming white lions make a good counter in this context, though...

Cython wrote:
The way you adapted to Mallas' tactics...

For me, the game was dominated by two events: Mallas' 1st turn moves and, of course, the irresistible Flesh to Stone on the saurus warriors.

Redeployment – non-elves can do it to!

The first was an excellent move by Mal which straight away made the game more competitive. Had he followed his (presumed) original plan and committed his steg and cavalry around the ruined building on my right, I could have blocked off that advance with relative ease, using the building as a charge-blocker, harassing with eagles and, latterly, the blue archers, and using the building as a launch-pad to put the white lions through the gap in lizardman lines. Meanwhile, I could have simply bulldozed forward with the rest of my troops much quicker and gone to work against the two infantry blocks with my right flank secure. That Mallas decided to turn inward with his fast units was a shrewd move: it held my spear column and white lions back in order to cover the centre of the board, reducing the frontage of my attack to a a degree with which his Life magic was more easily able to deal, and preventing an overrun of the slann's position. This 'delaying' tactic may have given me more time to keep casting Dwellers - a stand-off would have been in my favour with a series of good magic phases - but, as turned out here, magic is unreliable and troops are not: the Turn 1 shift in tactics was a good play from Mal. As Swordmaster put it:

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I think he is definitely better with his rock solid battle line and the way he keeps denying you that flank attack is excellent. What is also great about his approach so far is that often changing the formation is asking for trouble. He manages to keep his units together, pushes nice pressure on your regiments and blocks easy ways of setting combo-charges.


Image
The High Elf centre holds back from the threat of monsters, so makes do with covering the left flank as it advances.

In the end, I was able to make the new situation work for me. Sure, my spears and white lions were both held back but, as they stood, they were able to prevent, with the threat of counter-charges, an advance by the lizardmen elites and stegadon across to my attacking left flank. The surviving eagle, in the end, was likewise able to pin the lizardman centre in place so that, by turn 4, I had secured a charge on against the saurus horde with my swordmasters (T7 from Throne and Stone), helm hammer and, sheltering safely between the two, dragon princes). Without the toughness buff, the unit was dead and three of my most powerful units would be in the rear of the lizardman army. With a dispel scroll in my hand, I felt very, very confident.

A 7-dice Slann casts Flesh to Stone: High Elves nearly lose

That things didn't work out is as planned had as much to do with over-confidence as with luck. In the end, I got greedy. In my defence, if Dwellers had gone off and killed the Slann that turn, we'd all be saying "well of course you went for Dwellers - why wouldn't you?" And if I had scrolled Flesh, as was likely, we'd all (rightly) be praising the game-changing potential of this cheap little item. Technically speaking, it is not likely that Mallas would roll an irresistible force on a 7-dice cast of Flesh to Stone. Any other case would have been scrolled and those saurus would have been toast.

But it wasn't that unlikely: there are very few better chances to get irresistible force than chucking 7 dice at a spell. Mal was no fool - he knew he needed that spell to save his saurus warriors - and I knew it too- but I was too keen to Dwellers away rather than secure my defence. For those of you facing similar situations in future (you've got Throne up; so does your opponent; you have a massive charge on), here's what I should have aimed to do:

1 - Dispelled the slann's throne of vines with power dice in my turn.
2 - Dispelled the casting of throne of vines on the slann's turn.
3 - Scrolled Flesh to Stone.

Without Throne up already, the slann has to cast it again and has fewer dice available for Stone and Comet. Either it becomes far more likely that I can successfully scroll Stone and kill the saurus or, if it does go off irresistibly the saurus only get T6 and the slann suffers a miscast. In either situation, with 2 or 3 fewer dice for chucking at big spells, the comet likely doesn't go off at all (by killing almost half the unit it led directly to the death of the swordmasters). By throwing all my power dice at Dwellers, I left Throne up and basically allowed the Lizardmen as much power as they needed to cast their best spells with impunity (albeit they got a big load of dice), and completely hammer me with magic the following turn.

The Problem with Dwellers – Army Synergy and the Magic Phase

Now in normal circumstances, I'd still often go for Dwellers, but the lesson here can be best summarised by a what a wise friend said to me when I told him this little story. He thought for a bit and said: "You've built an army that's full of weapons. First off, your magic needs to make sure they can do their job, not just act as yet another weapon." This was something that I forgot this game: magic is there to work with your army, not independently from it. In this battle, I engineered the best possible horde-smashing combo-charge but, being greedy for the quick kill, I used my magic irresponsibly and critically undermined it against a magic-heavy opponent who knew what he was doing.

Moral of the story: if you've got a killing strike in the bag, focus your efforts and make it count - don't go for another killing strike. In this case I went for two strikes neither worked, and it nearly cost me the game. Sometimes it's good to remember that I chose Life primarily for its healing abilities. Lesson (re)learned!

Image
A charge this good doesn't need Dwellers Below.

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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