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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Indeed. There's a format for everyone - as long as it doesn't lean towards everyone playing ETC, or everyone playing standard 8th edition for that matter, its all good. :3

As a way to mitigate some of the instant death threats for the Archmage, I started taking a back-up mage geared solely for defense after the Archmage dies. That worked, but it cut 175 points out of my support. Lately, I've dropped it and started taking a BSB with Radiant Gem and Death Lore - even if the enemy defeats my Archmage, there's a good chance I can remove their Lv.4 next phase.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
The Battle of the Archmages


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Do i spy prawn crackers in that photo? :P


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:02 pm 
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antique_nova wrote:
Do i spy prawn crackers in that photo?

And what's going on with the giant pear?

:shock:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:48 am 
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Reading the discussion here and in the general topics forum, I get the impression that how people feel about the top spells mainly depends on how people use them and how they are used in their local meta-game.

If, like Seredain, you use magic as a force multiplier and a back up strategy then these top spells are mainly seen as a balancing tool. In the example being discussed, Seredain didn't need to get Dwellers cast, it was a nice bonus and made the victory faster for him. But he would have (likely) gotten the mage anyway. In my opinion, this qualifies as a good tactic, with a back-up plan and enough redundancies to be reliable.

If, on the other hand, you play in an environment that basically plays Dwellers FTW, 6-dicing uber spells to win you the game you feel (rightly so in part) that these spells are overpowered and turn warhammer into a Dweller your opponent before he dwellers you game.

These 2 groups of players play a different game, which leads to a different attitude to these spells. It is basically the same as the difference between playing a gunline and playing an army with 1 or 2 warmachines. Both use template artillery, but one is boring and hard to face when playing HE. The other is balanced and challenging. But the warmachine is not at fault for either scenario.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 am 
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rdghuizing wrote:
Reading the discussion here and in the general topics forum, I get the impression that how people feel about the top spells mainly depends on how people use them and how they are used in their local meta-game.

If, like Seredain, you use magic as a force multiplier and a back up strategy then these top spells are mainly seen as a balancing tool. In the example being discussed, Seredain didn't need to get Dwellers cast, it was a nice bonus and made the victory faster for him. But he would have (likely) gotten the mage anyway. In my opinion, this qualifies as a good tactic, with a back-up plan and enough redundancies to be reliable.

If, on the other hand, you play in an environment that basically plays Dwellers FTW, 6-dicing uber spells to win you the game you feel (rightly so in part) that these spells are overpowered and turn warhammer into a Dweller your opponent before he dwellers you game.

These 2 groups of players play a different game, which leads to a different attitude to these spells. It is basically the same as the difference between playing a gunline and playing an army with 1 or 2 warmachines. Both use template artillery, but one is boring and hard to face when playing HE. The other is balanced and challenging. But the warmachine is not at fault for either scenario.

Rod


Well said mate. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:41 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
antique_nova wrote:
Do i spy prawn crackers in that photo?

And what's going on with the giant pear?

:shock:


Also new terrain seems to be in play:
1. Becks forest: any model at least partially within this terrain feature must take an initiative test or spend the next turn doing nothing apart from rolling around singing dwarf ale songs.

Can I also at least partially hijack by directing you to my limited success at a recent tourney using a 2k cavalry prince list: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=36808. Also includes a cavalry mage-knight!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:44 am 
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Seredain wrote:
'Central flank' deployments like the above really do give you a lot of flexibility- I put the chariot in these sort of positions all the time (since it tends to act as a utility unit), but there's nothing to stop you doing it with your knights and, since they're so powerful, they can really mess up your enemy's day if he doesn't know where they're going! The simple trick is to just keep your infantry units back in deployment. You can't redeploy your cavalry if you don't have the room to manoeuvre.

Indeed. What I also like about your deployment is that is adds nice variation to the options we have. I have found myself constantly deploying in refused flank formation of some sort and that is not good for a longer term. I am more predictable then, even if it often pays off to deploy this way.

Seredain wrote:
If it makes you feel better, the enemy archmage was toast anyway. I had a charge on for my Turn 3 so, if he hadn't died to magic, he would have died to massive knightly charge. Ultimately, the move worked perfectly, even if it wasn't required in the end. Two methods of attack are better than one, eh?

Maybe I should not use the word "disappointment" :) Sure, if you can assure your win with more than one form of attack, then even better. Casting the spell is not automatic, even if you might have a very significant advantage. And I understand why you cast it too. He would have another chance to do something before inevitable charge of heavy cavalry and he still had some tools to hurt you.

So all good as it is also a good reminder that even if you have a good idea you can make it even better if you have some kind of plan B just in case :)

Oberon wrote:
I for one am not disappointed by your use of dwellers. It's why there are tactical nukes and your army list gives you enough tools that you have choices and redundancy. He could have deployed his Mage out of the block, knowing you had the spell. There are always risks, but a keen general mitigates those risks as best he can. In the army we have a system of composite risk management when planning operations, the same applies to this game. Well played victory.

I didn't know about this concept before. I mean "composite risk management". It sounds intriguing, I will see what I can find about it. Thanks for mentioning it! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:50 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Ether,

Thinking about Warriors of Chaos

I actually love fighting Warriors of Chaos. They have some truly brilliant strengths (their characters can be devastating, the chosen ward-block is filthy, Gateway, the hellcannon), but they have serious weaknesses too and, as far as I see it, these correspond rather well with our strengths. The major point is that their shooting, papa cannon excepted, is totally rubbish: poor range, poor ballistic skill, low quantity. Compounding this problem, their leadership isn't brilliant and, when it comes to The Battle of the Support Units, neither is their armour save. If I came across an army of marauder horsemen, I'd feel brilliant: deploy nice and tight and shoot the crap out of them. If they charge, your ASF murders them. As for those marauder infantry hordes we see a lot of, they're brilliant gate-way units for your forces. Nice wide bases (so you can cram lots of killy troops into them), little armour and low leadership all mean that you can kill tons, break steadfast and run them down. Once you get rid of all the chaff and break through into the Chaos backfield, their slow warrior blocks should find it difficult to stop you surrounding the remaining sections of the enemy army and picking them off one by one.

Some exceptions to the rosiness above. I generally like fighting enemy characters with the prince but, when it comes to Chaos lords, I live in fear of the runeshield. Tzeentch chosen and warshrines are a bitch. And if you do run into a marauder horde: before you start licking your lips, make a note of whether or not he has a hero in there. He may have the crown of command- so guard your attackers' flanks accordingly. The infernal puppet, if you haven't taken the Lore of Life, is horrid, so think very carefully before you chuck 6 dice. In principle, though, we can out shoot and/or out-manoeuvre and/or out-magic warriors and, once you've done these things, we can outfight them. As a fail safe, we have plenty of small cheap units (read 'eagles') to feed to whatever deathstar we can't handle in CC- and your opponent won't typically have the missiles to stop them doing this. Likewise they don't have the missiles to really cripple our elite infantry.

In short, we're such a tactically flexible army that I feel we have all the tools we need to handle the Warriors of Chaos. Don't make the mistake of feeding your units to their killers one at a time, dominate the board and get your killer combos rocking.

P.S. I played against a 4K Warriors army recently. It's the last set of photos I've yet to do a report for. It'll take me some time since I'll have to write the report in little pieces, but I'll get it done eventually.


Thanks for the feedback, Seredain. I'll let you know how I fare when/if I do match against our local WoC player, who remains undefeated.

On a related note, my group is about to embark on a Mighty Empires campaign, and given the opportunity to reap bonus points I was considering tweaking the core list to allow for more magic defence since I'll be facing Slann and Tzeentch sorcerors. We're playing with Character Advancement rules, meaning that characters' equipment is locked in and can only improve via the 'levelling system'.

At the moment I'm plugging for something as simple as trading in one eagle and replacing the Dispel Scroll with a Sigil of Asuryan, and making up the rest of the points by bringing the Lions up to 12 strong and throwing in a champion or standard with the Helms.

I figure the Sigil is more threatening than the Dispel Scroll and offers the chance to take a particularly nasty spell out of play (I worry about Tzeentch magic...). An extra eagle purchased via bonus points won't strain the bonus budget too much. Or perhaps I should spring for an Annulian Crystal (which is annoying but much less certain than a Scroll/Sigil, but still punishes an opponent even if they do get to IF). What do you think?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:11 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Oberon wrote:
I for one am not disappointed by your use of dwellers. It's why there are tactical nukes and your army list gives you enough tools that you have choices and redundancy. He could have deployed his Mage out of the block, knowing you had the spell. There are always risks, but a keen general mitigates those risks as best he can. In the army we have a system of composite risk management when planning operations, the same applies to this game. Well played victory.

I didn't know about this concept before. I mean "composite risk management". It sounds intriguing, I will see what I can find about it. Thanks for mentioning it! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management - I'm helpful! :3


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:30 pm 
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@Milliardo

The wiki article defines a process that is quite similar to the one we use in the Army. Instead of dealing with risk to lives, the article lays out risks to investments, but the principles remain the same.

@Swordmaster

Composite Risk Management is something you probably already practice, albeit unknowingly, when you face each new opponent in the Warhammer world. Each turn you face a multitude of choices, each with their risks and benefits. When the Army approaches mission planning, it examines enemy capabilities, response times and saturation in a given area to determine if the risk outweighs the benefits. This is a great part of force protection (fancy way of saying: keep the troops alive), but even more so, its a huge deal when it comes to the Army's strategy in any given conflict. A soldier's job is to fight and perhaps die for his nation, so this isn't the paramount concern in mission planning (that risk will always be there). The question is will this mission or operation leave the military with enough force to push on to the objective, or will the risks decimate the army to the point where it cannot achieve its aim. This is why a military writer like Sun Tzu or Clausewitz spoke emphatically on striking the enemies weakest points with maximum force. This minimizes the risks while maximizing the gain.

Remember this: MOSSMOUSE (principles of war) It all applies to Warhammer.

M: Maneuver (most important aspect of the game, deploy and move setting up the most advantageous situations possible)
O: Objective (always remember what your objective is and work towards it: rout the entire army? secure the watchtower? destroy the enemy's most casualty producing weapon?)
S: Surprise (maneuver and surprise are tied at the hip, example: Seredain's redeployment of his mounted forces or dropping dwellers on a meety unit the enemy was depending on the turn before)
S: Security (protecting flanks, destroying enemy skirmishers and raider units (fast cav, etc) but its imperative not to go for 100% security, otherwise you will fail to accomplish anything and you will surrender maneuver to the enemy, essentially the game)
M: Mass (strike with overwhelming force against a weak point, this operates in conjunction with Economy of Force. If you are essentially throwing needless bodies into an attack your are going to win anyway, this is a waste of effort that could be applied elsewhere)
O: Offensive (take the initiative, through maneuver, and attack, attack, attack, keeping the enemy reacting to your play)
U: Uniformity of Command (doesn't apply to a 1 on 1 game as much, but ensure your individual units are mutually supporting and all working in some way toward achieving the objective)
S: Simple (don't over complicate your plan. Seredain uses Alexander as an archetype and he is a great example of this principle)
E: Economy of Force (don't waste combat power on a single attack, if you can preserve units, do so; this is also great if you can maintain a reserve element to play at the battles tipping point; many U.S. Civil War battles hinged on the army who still had fresh troops to throw into the fight)

To put it in terms of this thread: Theoretically, I am facing Seredain's force with his lvl 4 Archmage and Life. I know he is going to be coming to the battle with a great chance of rolling for dwellers. Therefore, it is likely I will face a situation where low strength characters will be vulnerable. Now, before the battle even commences, if I am list tailoring, I can diminish this risk by taking lvl 2 mages in place of my lvl 4. I can also manage the loss of such a powerful dispeller by taking several magic defense items. Then splitting my mages between two units I can further mitigate the risk posed by dwellers. If I go into battle with my all-comers list, then I too will have a lvl 4. In this circumstance I can: 1) assume the risk and simply place the lvl 4 in his standard unit of 10 archers (which, while it has the lvl 4 in it, its not the best target for dwellers, especially since I have a unit of 38 Seaguard, 14 SMs, Silverhelm bus or 15 Phoenix Guard. Yes, you could bag an Archmage, but that leaves my other units unmolested for another turn), 2) I mitigate the risk by deploying the mage behind my units so he becomes an even less tempting target for horde destroying spells like dwellers, 3) I further mitigate the risk of loss by utilizing a second mage or a Mage Knight (which I do, much like Milliardo was talking about). Any army that is dependent on a lvl 4 (this is for all you shadow users!) is going to be handicapped when facing a shrewd opponent who can wield several tactical choices for decapitating the snake, be it dwellers or Seredain's swift redeployment. While slaying the archmage in Seredain's force or my own would be a blow to our combat support and magic defense, I can attest from experience that it is not the end game. This is because our force benefits from magic but is not dependent upon it to secure victory.

I'm not quite the master of the written word as Seredain is, so I hope this is sufficient.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:23 pm 
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It was a good write up - pragmatic and to the point. *thumbs up*


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Yes, nice one, Oberon.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:37 am 
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Thanks for some good read lads! :)

Indeed, one can often use something based on instinct or knowledge from outher sources not knowing it already has a definition. I really like the compact description of the idea, especially put in the context of Warhammer game. Thanks for taking the time and explaining it all, Oberon!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:12 am 
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Out of curiosity, have any of your opponents used Fulminating Flame Cage or Net of Amyntok against your Helm Bus? It seems that those spells would create a significant problem for their ability to get where they are needed.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:09 am 
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Finally got a chance to use my own variation of a cavlary prince list. :)
Was great fun.
I used a Prince with Vambraces of Defence and Radiant Gem- Beasts with 9 Silver Helms
Didn't quite work for me mainly because I made a lot of mistakes and wasn't very experianced.
Game 1- They charged a big unit of horrors and couldn't break them and ended up getting flanked by a horde of bloodletters
Game 2- They got charged by Cold One Knights- all the silver helms died but the Prince with the aid of sea guard reinforcements survived and defeated the cold one knights
Game 3- Got charged by Grail Knights and a Bret lord on hippogriff. Silver Helms were all killed. The prince fled, rallied, held for a few turns before fleeing again.
Game 4- Charged a unit of Dragon Princes. Killed them and then charged some spears but couldn't break them as they became T7.
Game 5- Prince charged out of the unit and killed a salamander. The rest of them got smushed by saurus cav with old blood and 2 scar vets. Prince ended the game hiding behind a wood far away from any enemies.
Game 6- Killed off 2 units of dire wolves and some ghouls but was then combo charged by a terrorgheist and a wraith. The Prince got stuck in challenge with the wraith and the terrorgheist screamed and killed 6 silver helms then finished the rest off in combat. The wraith failed to kill the prince over 4 or 5 rounds of combat and he resolutely passed his break tests and survived.

So my thoughts are could you drop the Silver Helms and just have the Prince go alone or with a mounted BSB perhaps and rove around backing up your other troops whereever they need it. As he is awesome but the silver helms die pretty easy. Also I quite liked the radiant gem but I think an Ogre Blade might have been better.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:39 am 
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Bounce, it sounds like your Silver Helms were charging in unsupported a lot of the time, or else were caught out by manueouvres. If that's the case you should look to use positioning better (are you employing the refused flank approach?) and combining units.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:09 pm 
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I did try a refused flank approach but it only really worked in game 4. Problem was my opponents kept making charges where they needed a 10 whereas I failed my ones. Combining my units better is definitely something I need to work on a lot. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Malcontent wrote:
Out of curiosity, have any of your opponents used Fulminating Flame Cage or Net of Amyntok against your Helm Bus? It seems that those spells would create a significant problem for their ability to get where they are needed.

Flame Cage won't do significant damage against 2+ armour saves. Net will be passed 2/3 of the time by the character, so the Silver Helm unit is not a likely target. Best target of Net is a war machine or a unit containing a caster.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Interesting to see your list developing to a more magic-oriented style, featuring the more common 2 eagles 1 rbt approach. I haven't had the time to read through your newest games yet but I sure will :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:54 am 
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For those of you who claim dwellers i so game breaking, see my match against wood elves in which i got dwellered 4 times and still won.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:40 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
For those of you who claim dwellers i so game breaking, see my match against wood elves in which i got dwellered 4 times and still won.


The results of a single battle will not change my opinion regarding the character snipping of this spell and the broken nature of it. I can recall more than enough battles were the opposite of what you tell happened.

Anyway I'll give your report a look and perhaps offer a comment. :)


Cheers, Sieg.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
For those of you who claim dwellers i so game breaking, see my match against wood elves in which i got dwellered 4 times and still won.

I found two of your reports where the enemy Wood Elves got off Dwellers against you more than once. You never lost a character to it. Almost all the serious complaints about Dwellers are about losing characters to it. And the spell killing a character is why it came up here - the plan didn't matter because the enemy Archmage got eaten.
I think I've wandered off this awesome thread a bit. Seems like Dwellers should be discussed here.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Fair point about derailing Seredain's thread. I guess I'll save my thoughts for the other thread.

As for Seredain going for a more magic-heavy list, I'm not surprised. Although including the Archmage in the first place was a 'because-I-can-he's-so-cheap' approach, it's obvious that spending the few extra points to make the magic more potent gives you way more firepower. Not taking the Banner of Sorcery in a High Elf list requires, in my opinion, a very good reason. It's just such a powerful item.

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I know you were discussing this a couple pages ago, but I thought I'd point out (about the metal mage):

I believe that Searing Doom is SUPER EFFECTIVE against the Unkillable Dreadlord you mentioned. As are all of the Death snipes, I suppose (no armor save, no ward save). Searing Doom has a 5/9 chance to kill the thing outright, for example. I'm hearing mention of a level 1 (RGoH or otherwise) with either of these lores and thought I'd put in another plug for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:52 pm 
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"Unkillable" Dreadlords invariably have the Dragonhelm.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:12 am 
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Stormie wrote:
"Unkillable" Dreadlords invariably have the Dragonhelm.


Assholes. Well you'll also need a level 1 with Seerstaff (Vaul's Unmaking).

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:34 pm 
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If you have Vaul's unmaking you don't need much else to get rid of the unkillable dreadlord. He isn't very unkillable once you remove all his clothes and what not ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:16 am 
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Dear Seredain! Thanks for the fantastic list!

Can you give any tactical advice to deal with modern "uberpower" DE list like:

Pegasus lord - Heavy armour, cloac, dragon helm, pendant of Khaeleth, crown of command, soulrender (GW + armour piercing) - 2+AS and pendant ward, 2+ fireward, stubborn, S6 with ap - this fellow can block my SH bus for easy - and even kill my lord

Supreme Sorceress 4lv shadow - seal of grond (+1 dd), sacrificial dagger (generates pd) - in the main battle phase this girl produce IF Mindrasor, plus other nastys Shadow lore has

Cauldron BSB - +1A to the most important combat, 5 ward to prevent ~ blackguard from shooting, and killing blow! to any unit to negate my rerolled armour saves :?

soceress 2 lv metal - scroll, ironcurce icon - good against my silver helms

24 corsair - 2weapons, fcg, frenzy banner
36 spearmen - fcg, shields, armour piercing banner
18 spearmen (SS here), FCG, banner of discipline
17 crossbowmen FCG, shields (metal s here)
2x5 harpies
20 black guard - fcg, firebanner
hydra

Not played with this fellow before, but he is skilled and the list is scary )


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:28 am 
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underthepalm wrote:
Not played with this fellow before, but he is skilled and the list is scary )


sorry, but anybody bringing the unkillable d-elf lord automatically does not qualify as being skilled (well in my not so humble opinion anyway)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:05 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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On Dwellers (2)

Leaving aside whether or not it should exist, let us accept that it does and look again at the practicalities involved in defending yourself from this, and other, stat test uber-spells.

The great danger in telling yourself that something 'should never happen' in Warhammer is that you also tell yourself, in tandem, that there's nothing you can do about it and simply put, this is very rarely the case. To point out methods of avoiding this fate is not at all to 'miss the point'!

Remember that the most important part of any rule is not what it might do when all goes right (be it range, enemy defence, lucky dice for you, unlucky dice for him), but how it actually works within the game mechanic. Any spell has weaknesses, and you have no excuse for not taking advantage of them just because he might roll a double 6. Nighthawk45 made a lovely table, for another thread, on the chances of your mage being killed by a miscast. Below I've extracted his calculations in respect only of the chances of getting irresistible force.

# of Dice | Chance of Irresistible Force
2 . . . . . | 2.78%
3 . . . . . | 7.41%
4 . . . . . | 13.19%
5 . . . . . | 19.62%
6 . . . . . | 26.32%

So, your opponent is unlikely to get that double 6 when he needs it. If he doesn't get it, and you've allowed the spell to go off anyway, you bear a serious amount of responsibility for the 50/50 roll you're now taking to save your mage!

Dealing with the Inevitable

Assuming that your opponent has enough dice to cast it at all (not a given), there are 5 stages that have to be completed before you lose your magic phase to Dwellers Below:

1- your opponent has to want to actually cast it;
2- it has to be in range;
3- it has to be cast successfully;
4- you have to fail/be unable to dispel it;
5- you have to fail a strength test.
6- you have only one mage to save.

This is a long line of phases which have to go right for your opponent and, as a player, you are always able to influence, if not always control, one or more of them. In brief, let's look at a few ways.

1 – Target Saturation

This is further to the earlier “don't build a beautiful target” paragraph which sets out a sensible principle to follow: if you want to discourage your enemy from melting your army with Dwellers, don't build a massive unit and fill it with characters! Very few people are going to turn down a chance to kill 2 or 3 characters and half of a horde. When deploying your forces, bear this in mind.

It's not just about unit composition, though. When your opponent's magic phase comes around, what have you done to discourage him from casting Dwellers? Basically, you want to have put him under pressure to cast something else. If your opponent takes one look at your forces and decides that your own archmage is the only serious threat he's going to face next turn, then he's going straight for that Dwellers. If however, you have other deadly weapons looking to punish your enemy next turn- like a cavalry bus looking to charge- your opponent's mind may be forced to turn to defensive spells.

Image
With my knights looking to charge, who is the greater threat, here: the life archmage or the cavalry prince?

2- Stay out of range! (2)

Covered here already. It has been suggested that a mage with a 24” effective range would struggle to keep 24” away from his enemy. This isn't the case! You simply choose to cast spells against those targets which don't bring your character within accessible range of the Dwellers caster. In the last HE v HE game, my opponent's caster was carrying Folariath's Robe. This gave him far more options in the movement phase than my caster could manage, easily enough scope for keeping out of Dwellers range and having shots against my advancing units.

Image

In the above you'll see that the enemy archmage is able to stay out of range of my caster but still have suitable targets for his own spells. My mage, liike most casters, can't afford to get into combat or wander outside of a unit for fear of getting shot or magic missiled. As a result, in the above example he's bound to sit with the archers. This limits his movement options and my opponent can use this information to stay out of range. You can measure everything in 8th Edition: make sure you do!

3 – Outside of the Annullian Crystal, there's not much you can do about this, I'll admit. :)

4 – Even if your opponent throws 6 dice, he's unlikely to get irresistible force. Have a scroll ready. No scroll, no dispel dice, no excuse!

5- Even after all of the above, there's still only a 50/50 chance of your mage dying. I don't like these odds, but neither does your opponent, really. This is why having a big unit around a caster can be influential over whether or not your opponent goes for him or not. Str 4 characters are usually safe unless they're in a big unit. If you can, run your characters independently if they can't get out of range of the spell- they become far less attractive targets.

6 – Not a point that many of us dwell on, since archmages carry so much influence in the modern game. It is a truth universally acknowledged that one archmage is better than two mages. Except, of course, that losing one of two mages is no way near as bad as losing your only caster. Lots of players take a back-up caster and Dwellers Below et al is one more reason to do so.

Conclusion (2)

Ultimately, lots of things can happen in Warhammer that shouldn't. Cannonballs can always draw perfectly straight lines to their targets (something modern weapons can't always manage, let alone early-modern cannon!), and knock a character from his unit (as Tethlis pointed out on the 'Dwellers' thread, 3 cannon putting shot through a character have a 50% chance of forcing him to fail a Look Out Sir! roll). A single stone from a cheap stone thrower may, contrary to the laws of physics, explode and hit up to 21 guys at the same time. A single goblin may hold his ground against a mighty dragon, even having lost his entire unit, if he rolls a double 1. When these things happen, they're annoying! Remember, though, that Warhammer is a game of averages. Sometimes the dice will screw you and sometimes they'll love you. In any case, every weapon in the game has its limits which you, as a player, should exploit.

underthepalm wrote:
Dear Seredain! Thanks for the fantastic list!

Can you give any tactical advice to deal with modern "uberpower" DE list like:

Pegasus lord - Heavy armour, cloac, dragon helm, pendant of Khaeleth, crown of command, soulrender (GW + armour piercing) - 2+AS and pendant ward, 2+ fireward, stubborn, S6 with ap - this fellow can block my SH bus for easy - and even kill my lord

Supreme Sorceress 4lv shadow - seal of grond (+1 dd), sacrificial dagger (generates pd) - in the main battle phase this girl produce IF Mindrasor, plus other nastys Shadow lore has

Cauldron BSB - +1A to the most important combat, 5 ward to prevent ~ blackguard from shooting, and killing blow! to any unit to negate my rerolled armour saves :?

soceress 2 lv metal - scroll, ironcurce icon - good against my silver helms

24 corsair - 2weapons, fcg, frenzy banner
36 spearmen - fcg, shields, armour piercing banner
18 spearmen (SS here), FCG, banner of discipline
17 crossbowmen FCG, shields (metal s here)
2x5 harpies
20 black guard - fcg, firebanner
hydra

Not played with this fellow before, but he is skilled and the list is scary )

Hey Under,

The Crown of Command+Pendant Dreadlord (2)

I talked a bit about this dreadlord here:The Crown of Command+Pendant Dreadlord. It's really important not to allow him a charge against your helm hammer. Ultimately, this dreadlord is most dangerous as a tarpit unit: he's beautifully designed for hitting and holding expensive hammers and deathstars. He's a pain, then, but he's also very expensive- and this is a crucial point. The trick to beating an army like this is to not allow this dreadlord to tarpit anything more expensive than him. That means you need to separate your characters from the silver helms if it looks like they might get charged by the dreadlord. As long as he's fighting something cheaper than he is, you're net up on points and his crown of command isn't ruining your battle plan.

As for the rest of the dark elf army, it doesn't have much ranged power. With your archers, repeater and heavy knights (searing doom notwithstanding), you should be able to put some hurt on it before the big fights. I think I'd get in there early with the fast units against his softest targets - where the mages are likely to sit. If I can keep the threat of arrows and bolts trained on the black guard, the dark elves are more likely to protect them with the ward than combat-buff the core troops. In any case, I think it best to go for the soft underbelly before hitting the powerful combat blocks. Your advantage in the ranged battle should help here.

Lastly, the position of the flaming banners is crucial. Your flaming unit, the white lions, are small enough to be deployed against the hydra and get on with their work. Your opponent has made a mistake in giving his most powerful block this flag, however. Any model with an anti-fire ward can nullify this unit! If your opponent is so keen to put the ward save on the BG's, then, be happy and shoot something else. When it comes to it, you can always give him a taste of his own 'character tarpit' medicine by shoving your BSB into their face and holding them up forever (and for far fewer points than the dreadlord).

Oh one last thing. If you can, get your archmage in range of his level 4 and cast Dwellers until she goes away. ;)

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Last edited by Seredain on Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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