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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:25 am 
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Seredain wrote:
EDIT: This is a mistake (see Stormie's post below). The errata refers only to "Reforming from Victory" as described on page 55 of the rulebook- i.e. only to reforms which take place when the unit is still engaged in combat. Where you wipe out an enemy unit, you may make a reform but this is done as a normal reform as described on page 14- ie around the centre of the unit. Lesson learned!


Good to know, if this wasn't the case one could argue that since there is no need for the center to stay the same, the only restriction would be that the models don't move more than twice their movement score :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:28 am 
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Malcontent wrote:
Seredain wrote:
EDIT: This is a mistake (see Stormie's post below). The errata refers only to "Reforming from Victory" as described on page 55 of the rulebook- i.e. only to reforms which take place when the unit is still engaged in combat. Where you wipe out an enemy unit, you may make a reform but this is done as a normal reform as described on page 14- ie around the centre of the unit. Lesson learned!


Good to know, if this wasn't the case one could argue that since there is no need for the center to stay the same, the only restriction would be that the models don't move more than twice their movement score :shock:

Haha, even while buried within the depths of my ignorance, I don't think I would've tried that!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:59 am 
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Every hard comp I've seen caps Flamers at 6, for a reason. Maybe your opponent would have been better off with two big units of Plaguebearers and Bloodletters though (both with Heralds), instead of the three he took, as Eldria suggested. I guess the problem is even the Nurgle BSB can be taken down by a strong combat character like the Prince.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:54 am 
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Last pic, Seredain, loses his shield while celebrating his victory =P

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Daemons Turn 2
The big deal, however, came when my opponent declared a charge with his first bloodletter horde against my white lions. The lions and swordmasters were stood in a perfect line so that, in the event of being charged by a horde, both units would be hit and so could support each other.
I don't think that is correct. A unit can only charge two targets if there is absolutely no way to avoid it. (pg 18). They seem perfectly capable of going off the other side of your White Lions, towards the archers. Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Tiralya wrote:
Last pic, Seredain, loses his shield while celebrating his victory =P

That's the least of it- he broke in half! He's glued together with blue tac in that picture. I'll have to pin him, now- the model's central torso is half built with green stuff (to allow him to face further forward- the original model looked 90% to the left), so more superglue will just be a temporary fix, I think. I've found a drill but I can't find a paper clip anywhere for the pin itself...

SpellArcher wrote:
Maybe your opponent would have been better off with two big units of Plaguebearers and Bloodletters though (both with Heralds), instead of the three he took, as Eldria suggested. I guess the problem is even the Nurgle BSB can be taken down by a strong combat character like the Prince.

Yeah, even if he was sat in a big unit, I'd still have killed the BSB. It's an interesting question. Certainly the bloodletters suffered from not having a herald. I guess my opponent really wanted the extra spell caster over the combat buff? As to the unit construction issue: on the one hand, the plaguebearers were small enough for me to chop through to win the last standard I needed- bad. On the other hand, two large units would've been much easier for me to surround from the off. Since daemons don't break, even a relatively small unit like the PB's were capable of holding my knights for at least a turn and having two of them moving separately allowed my opponent to position his units in such a way that I couldn't charge one with the helms (on Turn 4) without getting the other one in my flank on the following turn. If it had been one big unit I could've taken the charge and not had to worry about that.

This is all slightly academic, mind, since I know this daemon player always takes a unit of 20 infantry (in this case 19) in order to occupy the objective in case he runs into the Watchtower scenario.

dabber wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Daemons Turn 2
The big deal, however, came when my opponent declared a charge with his first bloodletter horde against my white lions. The lions and swordmasters were stood in a perfect line so that, in the event of being charged by a horde, both units would be hit and so could support each other.
I don't think that is correct. A unit can only charge two targets if there is absolutely no way to avoid it. (pg 18). They seem perfectly capable of going off the other side of your White Lions, towards the archers. Thoughts?


There's a bit of a rules clash, here. The one you reference required the daemons to only declare against one target, but the rules governing 'aligning to the enemy' (p. 20) required the bloodletters to maximise contact with the white lions. This meant the last BL model to my right going corner-to-corner with the rightmost white lion model and, because of its wide base, this brought the BL model (and therefore the unit) into contact with the swordmasters- hence forcing the dual-declaration.

Having read over p. 18 again, though, you may be right, since it only allows the dual declaration "if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another". I think the words "at all" give this rule precedence over the other, here? Certainly there was enough room on the far side, so perhaps the bloodletters should have completed their charge against the lions (assuming a successful charge roll) and simply been prevented from maximising contact if that caused them to clip the swordmasters and force the dual-declaration. Sound right?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:28 pm 
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My first post in this forum (after introduction post).

First of all, i find this whole thread to be of enormous help, either for beginners or for experienced generals. the topics, battle reports and reflections are unvaluable. Special thanks to Seredain, and congratulations on your last win! Really a tactics master class.

About your list, Seredain, i've always found myself more confortable playing and designing HE lists with multiple small units, so your list really fits my way of playing. However, i really really miss the Banner of Sorcery for the great impact it has in boosting the much needed aid spells for your troops.

In the last games i see you have tried different approaches to try to overcome this issue, (RBT +2WL out, mage in) with different degrees of success. Metal mage performed really well against that empire opponent, but you really missed the fire of RBT and the 2 WL against DoC.

Before giving my suggestion i would also like to comment the fact that, as i understand it, the jewel of the dusk dice can only be used by its wearer. I guess in that case there is no problem in giving JotD to archmage and dispell scroll to mage lvl 1, but still, it's nice to have it in mind if what i say is correct.

So here is my suggestion, an alternative which i still haven't seen in this thread:
- Drop 1 RBT (100pts)
- Add Ring of Fury (enchanted item, 40points). So archmage wears Dispell scroll + Ring
- Add Banner of Sorcery to SW (12+50)
So that makes you need 2pts from somewhere. Points are really tight but i hope there's somewhere to take them from.

Reasoning:
- The main objective of this change is to field BoS to boost magic. I can't see anywhere else where to take points from except from the RBT.
- BoS > JotD in terms of raw magic boost. JotD cheaper but needs mage, which costs more but offers other things, at the cost of 2 elites.
- The loss of the RBT is compensated with Ring of Fury. In terms of effectiveness, RoF is generally superior (7S4 magic hits on average, when successfully cast). Also, the spell fury of Khaine can be usefull against most armies (if not all).
- Of course, RBT can't be dispelled and it's threat might distract enemy troops going against it.
- On the other hand, you can use the extra dice from BoS to either cast more (or stronger) life spells or to cast RoF. In either case, your enemy has to choose what to use his dispel dice on, and you have more casting dice and a new spell that you didn't have before.
- You gain 1 Standard in SW. Good in some scenarios and the +1 CR might be usefull sometimes. Bad thing, SW will get even more attention, and if you lose them, you lose BoS; so now you REALLY have to protect them with magic (however, your magic is now stronger).

Let's see your opinions and what you think about it ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Maybe your opponent would have been better off with two big units of Plaguebearers and Bloodletters though (both with Heralds), instead of the three he took, as Eldria suggested. I guess the problem is even the Nurgle BSB can be taken down by a strong combat character like the Prince.

Yeah, even if he was sat in a big unit, I'd still have killed the BSB. It's an interesting question. Certainly the bloodletters suffered from not having a herald. I guess my opponent really wanted the extra spell caster over the combat buff? As to the unit construction issue: on the one hand, the plaguebearers were small enough for me to chop through to win the last standard I needed- bad. On the other hand, two large units would've been much easier for me to surround from the off. Since daemons don't break, even a relatively small unit like the PB's were capable of holding my knights for at least a turn and having two of them moving separately allowed my opponent to position his units in such a way that I couldn't charge one with the helms (on Turn 4) without getting the other one in my flank on the following turn. If it had been one big unit I could've taken the charge and not had to worry about that.

This is all slightly academic, mind, since I know this daemon player always takes a unit of 20 infantry (in this case 19) in order to occupy the objective in case he runs into the Watchtower scenario.


Too True but this is where I think 90% of demon lists get it wrong. Having played vs demons a lot (and trained a player to play them who placed 2nd in his first tourny) i'd be running a very different list to him starting at:

2 units of 5 furies
2 single fiends
2 bloodcrusher champions
as many flamers as permitted (2 units of 3 or 1 of 6 mostly where i play)

after this is doesn't matter much but:

2 big units with herald, probably bloodletters and plague bearers but with a shadow mage demonettes are hard to pass up.
lone tzen loremaster herald who can fly probably on shadow
Great Unclean one (Lev 3 breath weapon) or Lord Of Change (plus one dice, scroll, lev 3)

you'll note the army has 6 chaff drops 7/8 if you count the flamers who can affect huge areas of the board being able to march and shoot before anything important goes down allowing control of the game in normal deployment scens. Both greater demons are primarily spell casters who will only join combat late in flanks/rear

---

Anyway well done again seredain nice to see your list still working. I took my cut down version (2400 point) to a 14 man tourny on sunday and placed 4th due to losing to a demon player in the last game fighting for first. I blame 2 mistakes for my loss, one was forgetting he was allowed the +1d6" charge banner and the other was misdeploying the white lions behind a pond which was actually an impassable spawning pool so they did nothing all game.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Daemons are a powerful army but that leaves it's own selection dilemmas. Here your opponent went for numbers but lacked combat characters and his magic wasn't awesome. To get a Lvl4 means sacrificing upgrades, unless you take a Lord of Change. I see the point about Watchtower, a lot of people dislike this scenario as there are certain units it's very difficult to shift from a building.

Ok just read Eldria's post, here's a man who's honed things!

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:55 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Daemons are a powerful army but that leaves it's own selection dilemmas. Here your opponent went for numbers but lacked combat characters and his magic wasn't awesome. To get a Lvl4 means sacrificing upgrades, unless you take a Lord of Change. I see the point about Watchtower, a lot of people dislike this scenario as there are certain units it's very difficult to shift from a building.

Ok just read Eldria's post, here's a man who's honed things!

:)


My quote of the year:

"I read the warhammer rule book and thought 'not sure about that' then i read the demon book and thought 'cool so i won't play all the rules I didn't like"

The scary thing is thats very true!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:29 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Daemons are a powerful army but that leaves it's own selection dilemmas. Here your opponent went for numbers but lacked combat characters and his magic wasn't awesome.

It was tricky to deal with simply because he always had something useful to cast but, typically, I was able to tell which were the spells I really needed to get rid of in any given turn. The difference between this phase and the Mannfred phase, though, was that this phase didn't have the loads of power dice to back up the loads of spells, so I could normally handle it. My opponent rolled really well for power a couple of times, though. That, in conjunction with the flamers, made me seriously worried. We saw T7 bloodletters and T8 plaguebearers this game. And then there was the damn amber spear...

Eldria wrote:
I took my cut down version (2400 point) to a 14 man tourny on sunday and placed 4th due to losing to a demon player in the last game fighting for first. I blame 2 mistakes for my loss, one was forgetting he was allowed the +1d6" charge banner and the other was misdeploying the white lions behind a pond which was actually an impassable spawning pool so they did nothing all game.

Nice! That banner is a complete bastard: I won't forget about it again in a hurry. As for the white lions... Doh!

I like your daemons setup. For sure I see precious few armies that employ chaff on that scale and daemons have some of the best light/skirmishing units in the game. High elves are pretty good are taking out units like these, however. Archers, repeaters, chariots and knights have good range and can move quickly to clear the board before the infantry gets to it. The unknown quantity, for me, would be the GUO/LoC. I'm not yet familiar with the kind of setups these beasts run.

Syleth wrote:
My first post in this forum (after introduction post).

An excellent first post!

Syleth wrote:
First of all, i find this whole thread to be of enormous help, either for beginners or for experienced generals. the topics, battle reports and reflections are unvaluable. Special thanks to Seredain, and congratulations on your last win!

Thanks for saying so. I continue to be really pleased with the possibilities that the High Elf army has to offer in 8th edition and I'm glad that the guys on this site have been so proactive in following, supporting and inventing new and unique list builds in the way they have. When 8th Edition started, the hype was all about archmages and elite infantry blocks but now, in addition, we've got cavalry back in play, shooty/magic lists, avoidance lists, eagle princes, dual cavalry hammers- a wonderful amount of variety that lots of other armies can't (or won't) really match. It seems that the community now is generating battle reports, interesting tactics discussions & treatises and army blogs at a rate that I haven't seen historically. It's great to see and great to be a part of.

Syleth wrote:
Before giving my suggestion i would also like to comment the fact that, as i understand it, the jewel of the dusk dice can only be used by its wearer. I guess in that case there is no problem in giving JotD to archmage and dispell scroll to mage lvl 1, but still, it's nice to have it in mind if what i say is correct.

This used to be true back in 6th but isn't in our current army book. The jewel is just an excellent item for the price. The only flaws it has are a) that it takes up a valuable arcane slot and, more particularly, b) that it requires an expensive mage to carry it. Individually it's better value than the Banner, but the cost of the mage changes things on points-cost alone.


Losing the 2nd Repeater - Problems and Solutions

Syleth wrote:
However, i really really miss the Banner of Sorcery for the great impact it has in boosting the much needed aid spells for your troops.

This is absolutely right. Not having the Banner is a straight-up weakness of the list. I'll reiterate that having the extra deployment location, board coverage and enemy unit distraction (it takes two turns to charge a repeater, kill it and then get into position to charge something else- that's a significant chunk of game time), is something more power dice can't replicate, though. I've been reluctant to take the Banner, then, without being able to replace (in full or in part) the harassment/anti-harassment/deployment options granted by the 2nd repeater. The loss of missile fire is a serious consideration (in terms of the effect it has psychologically and in terms of wounds caused), but not the only one.

Syleth wrote:
In the last games i see you have tried different approaches to try to overcome this issue, (RBT +2WL out, mage in) with different degrees of success. Metal mage performed really well against that empire opponent, but you really missed the fire of RBT and the 2 WL against DoC.

Spot on. The 2nd repeater could have been the defence my backline needed against those fiends where I felt the need to dedicate the chariot to combat. The absence of secondary support unit behind my lines combined with the reduced number of white lions made my life more difficult than I'm used to. Certainly the extra mage could not cover this defecit- he's just something else that can get killed by units like fiends, is forced to hide and, thus, is not the solution. I'll say again that, with the exception of magic missiles (which I'll come to in a moment), magic (certainly Life lore) cannot achieve the annihilation of units in and of itself: rather it can only operate in conjunction with pre-existing units. I straight-up lost a unit for that last game and that made me uncomfortable. Searing Doom was excellent against the Empire, of course, and would be just as excellent against certain other enemies. The truth is, though, that I have lots of ways of coping with knights all over my list: the characters, the elite infantry, the eagle (not ready to fight 'em? Hold 'em!) and, latterly, the Life spells (esp. Stone for fighting and Regrowth for steadfast).

Indeed, having looked at the ETC lineup recently, I was struck by the number of powerful enemy armies that were full of dangerous light units which could punish my fragile and manoeuvre-reliant list but which, frankly, Searing Doom or (the Metal buffs) would be useless against. I'm talking about Dark Elves (any of them!), Skaven weapon-teams, chameleon skinks, fiends, eagles and so on. Being on the receiving end of such units in that last game exposed a gap in the capability of the new list edit which I think will prove far more damaging in the long run than my inability to smite a steam tank in one turn.

Syleth wrote:
So here is my suggestion, an alternative which i still haven't seen in this thread:
- Drop 1 RBT (100pts)
- Add Ring of Fury (enchanted item, 40points). So archmage wears Dispell scroll + Ring
- Add Banner of Sorcery to SW (12+50)
So that makes you need 2pts from somewhere. Points are really tight but i hope there's somewhere to take them from.

Reasoning:
- The main objective of this change is to field BoS to boost magic. I can't see anywhere else where to take points from except from the RBT.
- BoS > JotD in terms of raw magic boost. JotD cheaper but needs mage, which costs more but offers other things, at the cost of 2 elites.
- The loss of the RBT is compensated with Ring of Fury. In terms of effectiveness, RoF is generally superior (7S4 magic hits on average, when successfully cast). Also, the spell fury of Khaine can be usefull against most armies (if not all).
- Of course, RBT can't be dispelled and it's threat might distract enemy troops going against it.
- On the other hand, you can use the extra dice from BoS to either cast more (or stronger) life spells or to cast RoF. In either case, your enemy has to choose what to use his dispel dice on, and you have more casting dice and a new spell that you didn't have before.
- You gain 1 Standard in SW. Good in some scenarios and the +1 CR might be usefull sometimes. Bad thing, SW will get even more attention, and if you lose them, you lose BoS; so now you REALLY have to protect them with magic (however, your magic is now stronger).

Let's see your opinions and what you think about it ;)

The Ring of Fury

I honestly hadn't even considered the Ring of Fury! I must say, though, that this is a properly properly good suggestion and the reasoning behind it is very well explained. The ring allows me both the Banner (more power), the better spell selection and, as you say, a maintained ranged ability. Specifically, it does something the rest of my Life spells can't do and, further, it hurts support units like fiends badly. Thumbs up!

There are a few little problems with the ring, however (other than the power it requires- you can't cast everything you'd like!). The archmage cannot be, or turn to face, everywhere at once. It is very unlikely that I will be able to Dwellers my enemy's horde and fry his scouts in the same turn. The archmage, since he's a soft target to enemy shooting and spells, will also have to sit in an infantry unit- typically archers but possibly spears. He will, therefore, be partly bound (or at least influenced) by the unit's location, target and all-round purpose. This is no problem for most spells, but it is for magic missiles. Lastly (and most importantly), it doesn't solve the problem of the missing deployment. It's not just that the archmage takes on another role and can't be everywhere to do it, it's that my other good harassment and anti-harassment units have to fill the gap which, in terms of deployment, the archmage can't himself satisfy at all. I think I've found the solution, however...

List Edit

Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286
Archmage - Level 4, Life Magic, Dispel Scroll - 280
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 300
14 Archers - Musician, Standard - 169
14 Archers - Musician - 159

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
11 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 205
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points

Liberating the Archers

Yes! It's another eagle! And the Banner of Sorcery is in! And I've got 2 extra standards for Blood and Glory! Hooray! So, the extra magical power is in and my harassment has just got a lot better (it's not that I can throw 1 eagle away and have a spare- I can now block 2 units in 1 turn with eagles, or 1 deathstar for 2 turns- this is a good thing); but my anti-harassment abilities got a lot better too, and this has nothing to do with the eagle directly attacking harassment units.

Here's what I mean: take a look at the deployment I used against the daemons in that last game.

Image

You'll see that the green archers are deployed far to my left flank. This is a usual habit of mine to throw my opponent off during deployment. During the course of this battle, they will spend perhaps a turn or two shooting and then find a second important use- they will nobly sacrifice themselves to block the bloodletters for a turn- giving me time I need to clear the daemon right flank. Both of these roles, now, can be performed by the second eagle.

In this way the eagle doesn't just improve the list by what it can itself do, it does so by liberating the archers to perform other roles themselves. Specifically, my deployment of my shooting units will now be less constrained by my need to out-deploy and harass my opponent's big blocks. The fact that both archer units are now 14 strong with musicians isn't the critical detail (though 3 extra shots might make the difference here and there). The critical details are as follows:

(1) Both archer units will be much better able to concentrate their fire, if required, since they can now deploy together without worrying about doing an eagle's job. In this way the new eagle keeps my shooting phase potent- even where it's lost a repeater and gained only 3 archers.

(2) I now have that spare unit which I can use, where required, to cover my back line. You can do this from a relatively central position so as to not greatly impact point (1). 14 archers with musician are an excellent foil for enemy harassers looking to worry my attacking units in the way the fiends did during the last game. They will, typically outshoot and outfight units like scouts, skinks, flyers and light cavalry looking to close in and cause trouble. The archers will, infact, outperform the 2nd repeater in this capacity since they can move, shoot and fight.

As for the spears, I think I can survive with 30. Against anything except gunlines they typically don't take much of a beating before they get into combat: my opponent usually decides he has bigger fish to fry. Mortars like to land on them but, if it comes to it, I have more power dice to throw at the Lore of Life, now, so an esssential regrowth or toughness buff will be easier to get off. I also, of course, have the opportunity to apply more direct support to the spearelves with the 'liberated' archer unit (for flank charges and such). I've lost a white lion, but nothing's perfect. I might continue tinkering until I can get him in but, in principle, I'm happy.

In conclusion, I think I've simultaneously improved my magic phase, harassment and anti-harassment abilities, with a manageable impact on my shooting phase and without spending any more points. It sounds like squaring the circle, but I'm looking forward to giving the new setup some more games. In fact, my next report is on the way, in which I deploy this army against the following Lizardmen list.

Image

My opponent spent another 185 gold on top of the list you see, so he fielded this:

2685 point Lizardmen

Slann Mage Priest- Loremaster (Life), Focus of Rumination
Skink Priest- Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Heavens Lore, Ancient Stegadon, Engine of the Gods
Skink Priest- Level 2, Cloak of Feathers, Diadem of Power (may store power dice to use as dispel dice)
Scar-Veteran BSB- Sword of Strife, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour

25 Saurus Warriors- Spears & Shields
24 Saurus Warriors- Hand Weapons & Shields (BSB here)
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

20 Temple Guard, Full Command
4 Kroxigor
1 Stegadon

1 Salamander- 4 handlers

Battle Report coming soon...

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Another point is that Mannfred is a level 4 and here you were facing lvl2's. I think you yourself picked up on how helpful the +5 to dispel was. Daemons can easily pick up a great repertoire of spells (Master of Sorcery) but a Lvl 4 comes at a cost. Eldria's Lvl3 sounds like a good compromise to me. The only GUO I've faced lately was a Lvl2 with Balesword (auto-wound, D6 wounds), Pestilent Mucus (toughness tests when you wound it) at 2400pts. One amusing combat round where it failed to hit my blocking eagle but then squashed it and went on to kill my BSB.

I love that Lizardmen army!

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:46 pm 
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I really like the updated list with the second eagle. I think adding that additional benefit to your harassment will be a very welcome boon to your style of play.

Look forward to the Lizardmen report as that army is a frequent enemy of mine as well with a similar Slann setup, but with several more harassment units in place of the non-engine stegadon. Facing only one salamander would be a dream! I'm also interested to see how the Krox perform by themselves instead of in a mixed unit.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
List Edit

Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286
Archmage - Level 4, Life Magic, Dispel Scroll - 280
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 300
14 Archers - Musician, Standard - 169
14 Archers - Musician - 159

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
11 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 205
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points


Especially after you have added Banner of Sorcery to your army, I would carefuly consider re-arranging your special units. I'm talking about fielding:
Quote:
14 White Lions - FCG, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
11 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Banner of Eternal Flame - 205


Justification: with Banner of Sorcery being, let's call it not cheap the role of Swordmasters in your army changes. They cease to be a fast, expendable hit-and-run-if-needed unit. Also, bare in mind that although it might not affect your gameplay with the army, it most ceratinly will affect your enemies gameplay: with BoS Swordmasters gain priority. Furthermore, in current setup I consider lack of musician on Swordmaster a big blunder in the list. I would like to hear the reasoning behind that choice. In my opinion, baring in mind that Swordmasters will be Public Enemy no.1 it is most reasonable to assume that you will have to step back some times, or possibly even flee.

Also, big unit of White Lions is more effectice than big unit of Swordmasters, mainly becouse of supporting attacks, so switching those numbers around would grant you more damage output in general.

And last but not least, White Lions are significantly more resistant in terms of light shooting, which is of utmost importance when it comes to defending precious Banner of Sorcery.

Looking forward for your reply, cheers
Furion

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i think Furion has a good point.

I understand you like the flame banner on the lion, but i fear furion is right that the sm's are too fragile to become a prime target.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:31 am 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
Look forward to the Lizardmen report as that army is a frequent enemy of mine as well with a similar Slann setup, but with several more harassment units in place of the non-engine stegadon. Facing only one salamander would be a dream! I'm also interested to see how the Krox perform by themselves instead of in a mixed unit.

This Lizardmen player has typically fielded a lot more skinks and more salamanders too. The problem for him was that I kept running through all these light units with arrows, blots and fast knights. Skinks are no good against armour, so he's chosen a more direct solution by including another massive dinosaur. :)

I don't rate mixed Kroxigor/skink cohorts. The big problem with them is that, against anything decent, the unit will usually lose far more combat res from lost skinks than it'll gain in kills earned by the krox. Krox kick arse by themselves: if you want to break steadfast, I might use them as detachments and send a couple in alongside some saurus warriors.

Furion wrote:
Especially after you have added Banner of Sorcery to your army, I would carefuly consider re-arranging your special units. I'm talking about fielding:

14 White Lions - FCG, Standard, Banner of Sorcery - 284
11 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Banner of Eternal Flame - 205

Furion,

This idea has some merit when it comes to flag protection, but if we go through your points one by one you'll see why I've chosen to field my elites in the way I have. The bottom line is that the set-up (in terms of troop numbers) has several advantages which are not at all overwhelmed by the need to protect the Banner.

Furion wrote:
Justification: with Banner of Sorcery being, let's call it not cheap the role of Swordmasters in your army changes. They cease to be a fast, expendable hit-and-run-if-needed unit.

The 'Hit-and-Run' Unit

I think you mistake the uses that each of my elite units is designed for. The swordmasters, even when they've been pleasantly cheap, have never been a hit-and-run-if-needed unit. Certainly small elite units in general have this potential use, but these particular swordmasters have never been employed as such because the rest of my army is full of units which fulfill this role. The two units of knights, the cavalry characters (where they run independently), and the chariot are all faster: the chariot, dragon princes and archers are all more expendable. In other words, most of the units in my army are better designed for this role than the swordmasters. As a consequence, I can concentrate the swordmasters on the thing they're really good at: melee.

The Fighting Swordmasters

Furion wrote:
Also, big unit of White Lions is more effectice than big unit of Swordmasters, mainly becouse of supporting attacks, so switching those numbers around would grant you more damage output in general.

This is not borne out by my own experience nor, I think, the numbers. There was a good thread going a while back looking at the difference between swordmasters and white lions (fighting in 2 ranks) when it came to combat kills. The swordmasters were ahead of the white lions (by far against WS5 troops) until they faced opponents which combined both high toughness and good armour. Except against the stuff that's both tough and armoured (eg T4 AS1+ knights, T5 AS4+ monsters), 14 swordmasters are better at killing than 14 white lions.

Against most enemy infantry, then, the swordmasters are the best killing-tool we have access to. This has a couple of consequences. Firstly, because they tend to be fighting infantry blocks, swordmasters will benefit more from the wider frontage. Secondly, the few extra models will also be an advantage where they're required to stick it out for a round or two before the knights ride into the flank or rear of their enemy. In terms of kills, too, the extra attacks granted by the second rank keeps the SMs killing more than the white lions (they have 50% more attacks) where we don't see the Toughness+Armour factor kicking in (ie against most infantry). In spite of this, for every casualty suffered, they lose less effectiveness per wound lost than white lions do. The 2nd rank constitutes only 33% of SM attacks, while the WL's 2nd rank constitutes 50%. They are, in all, better at both killing and grinding against enemy infantry than white lions are. Running a unit of 14 rather than 11 amplifies these strengths.

Furion wrote:
Furthermore, in current setup I consider lack of musician on Swordmaster a big blunder in the list. I would like to hear the reasoning behind that choice. In my opinion, baring in mind that Swordmasters will be Public Enemy no.1 it is most reasonable to assume that you will have to step back some times, or possibly even flee.

The Missing Musician

Since all the above persuades me to dedicate my swords to fighting enemy infantry, they have (almost without exception) been deployed close to the centre of my attacking formation. They might be tasked with holding back or quickly moving forward but, when it comes to it, the unit will be asked to fight what is infront of it. A musician is less missed here (since I don't have the 6 points) than it is on units holding the flanks- where the ability to manoeuvre freely is far more important. As for enemy harassers getting behind me, a dedicated fighting unit like the swordmasters has no business chasing them around- I have other units for that job.

As for fleeing, I have never fled my swordmasters from combat. As my premiere melee troops, their job is to stand and fight. I have so many fast and manoeuvreable units, along with good harassment and magic that, if I allow my swordmasters to face a fight they cannot win, I am doing something wrong.

Furion wrote:
Also, bare in mind that although it might not affect your gameplay with the army, it most certainly will affect your enemies gameplay: with BoS Swordmasters gain priority.

Swordmasters as Targets

It is a truth universally acknowledged that your opponent will fear your swordmasters. The fact they carry an expensive banner will make their loss more dangerous, but it probably won't make their loss any more likely. I have never fought a battle where my opponent didn't try and whittle them down, but then I've also fought very few battles where the helm hammer didn't get most of the attention during the early turns. The silver helms are an excellent protection to swordmasters since they will be the first unit (and the strongest) to bear down on the enemy. A banner generating D3 power dice is not as dangerous (or expensive) as a Giant Blade prince. If my opponent focuses his attention on the slower-moving elites, then, he's not necessarily doing himself a favour.

Ultimately, if people start shooting my swordmasters, it'll just be business as usual. A nice point to remember, though, is that the swordmasters now carry a solution to their own weakness. I chose Lore of Life in the first place to help my small elite units survive: if I have to spend the extra power dice from the Banner protecting or regenerating the unit carrying it, those will be power dice well spent and entirely in the spirit of my lore choice.

Furion wrote:
And last but not least, White Lions are significantly more resistant in terms of light shooting, which is of utmost importance when it comes to defending precious Banner of Sorcery.

Further to the above, I would argue that the units, not the Banner, are of the utmost importance. The units are there to fight and the Banner is there to help- the elite elves are too good and too few to have their uses dictated by what is, ultimately, a supplementary item (albeit an excellent one).

As for the lion cloaks, they make up precisely for the natural weaknesses of a smaller unit of 11 and so compliment it very well. What the swordmasters lack in armour, however, they partly make up for with their greater numbers. They are greatly helped in surviving, of course, by the Lore of Life and, since the Banner helps Life by adding power to it, it helps protect the swordmaster unit carrying it and hence helps protect itself. Given my lore choice, the swordmasters are less vulnerable Banner bearers than they might otherwise be. If I took Shadow or another lore, it might be a different matter.


MSU White Lions

So what do the white lions do? Their excellence against high toughness/armour combined naturally disposes them, as we all know, to killing enemy knights and monsters (chaos warriors can be added to the list, but they also tend to be fielded in smaller units than other infantry, so a more limited unit size has fewer drawbacks against them than it normally would).

The Musician
A critical characteristic of monsters and cavalry is that they are faster and much easier to manoeuvre than infantry. The musician is, therefore, inherently more useful against them since I am far more likely to need the free reform to adjust position. This need is amplified by the fact that, on occasion, the MSU white lions will be required to be deployed on or near the flanks: they are rather a specific tool and this is often where their enemy will be. Likewise strange deployments might be required by the presence of forests or enemy missile troops. The white lions are the 'swiss army knife' unit and need to remain flexible. A musician is key to this flexibility and,. particularly, much more important to a unit wandering around the flanks of an army than to a unit marching up the centre into combat.

Size Matters
Why keep them small? A couple of reasons for this. Monster bases are smaller than the frontage of infantry units. A white lion unit 7 wide will have no more attacks against a hydra than a unit 6 wide. Knight units are also typically fielded in much smaller numbers than infantry. Correspondingly, fewer attacks are needed to cripple them than to severely damage the fighting effectiveness of an infantry block. A unit of 5 or 6 enemy knights will lose to 11 white lions as well as to 14.

Lastly, a small white lion unit is cheap. This is important because, where a unit is required to deploy against a specific (and fast) enemy in the way that MSU white lions are (if I see a hydra go down I may need to respond directly, same for chaos knights and such), the rest of the elf army may have to live without them for much of the battle. Such a unit is missed less where it is smaller and costs fewer points. The 14 swordmasters, by contrast, are a more relaible investment for the rest of my forces, since they are much more likely to be deployed centrally and not be required to go running off after specialised targets.

The Banner of Eternal Flame

One final point re. putting the Banner of Sorcery on the swordmasters (and a critical one): ultimately, there is no where else to put it in this list.

In particular, the Banner of Eternal Flame is far better suited to the white lions since it compliments their choice of targets better. The buzz-word monsters- hydras- have regeneration, as do trolls and so on- good white lion targets. Also there are plenty of fear-causing heavy cavalry out there, including Chaos Knights, Blood Knights and Cold One riders/knights. The flaming banner, since it causes fear in cavalry, grants the lions immunity to fear from these units which they are best-qualified to fight. It is a perfect fit.


I hope this answers your query. Be assured that I've thought a lot about this!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:07 am 
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This is some nice reasoning, I love that. I agree with you in every part but the musician one. Don't you ever Combat Reform your Swordmasters?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:12 am 
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Seredain wrote:
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190


Hi Seredain,
I apologize if this has been answered but a question about the shield on the BSB. Do you take the shield to get the 1+ AS for ranged/magic attacks? I think in combat the shield doesn't confer a +1 AS since you will be using the great weapon, but I could be wrong.

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Cinanul wrote:
Hi Seredain,
I apologize if this has been answered but a question about the shield on the BSB. Do you take the shield to get the 1+ AS for ranged/magic attacks? I think in combat the shield doesn't confer a +1 AS since you will be using the great weapon, but I could be wrong.

Sounds like the only reasoning to do so. You are not wrong, in combat he can't use it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Furion wrote:
This is some nice reasoning, I love that. I agree with you in every part but the musician one. Don't you ever Combat Reform your Swordmasters?

Thanks Furion.

Combat reforms don't need a musician: do you mean a swift reform? Actually no I haven't, but that's because, for as long as I've been using this army, I've never found the points for the SM musician! If I had one, there's no doubt I'd make use of it eventually.

Living without the Swift Reform

In the end, because my swordies like to rip into infantry units, they don't need to do that much running around. You deploy them in the right place opposite a good target, wait unit the time is right (ie until you've got your knights round a flank) and commit them forward. A musician isn't really needed for this style of play.

Deploying properly is the key here: if you think you won't commit your infantry until (say) Turn 3 or 4, it doesn't do to deploy them forward and, thus, expose them to aggressive advances from your opponent which you're not ready for. It's much easier to move forward to gain position than to move backwards (in terms of distance, at least twice as easy) so, if in doubt, I deploy the swordmasters back and move them forward as necessary. This makes it less likely that I'll have any nasty surprises (like a unit in my rear), to which I need to respond by using a swift reform.

The best thing about swordmasters, though, is that they win combats. So I shove them into combat, win that combat, then take the free reform offered. Since they're almost always fighting alongside something quick (chariot or knights), I usually pursue only with that and this allows me to reform the swordmasters at the end of the combat phase, facing in a useful direction towards some new enemy and ready for Round 2. This is instead of my pursuing, ending up out of position and needing the swift-reform next movement phase to get them back in the game.

Ultimately, by bearing in mind the unit's limitations, I can legislate for them. This is harder to do for the white lions, whose specialist targets tend to be much quicker and, therefore, less predictable and harder to manoeuvre against than an infantry block. Here (and since I have to choose putting it on one unit or the other), a musician is more essential. It's not an ideal situation but, since I had to make the choice, I think I can live with it.

Cinanul wrote:
Hi Seredain,
I apologize if this has been answered but a question about the shield on the BSB. Do you take the shield to get the 1+ AS for ranged/magic attacks? I think in combat the shield doesn't confer a +1 AS since you will be using the great weapon, but I could be wrong.

Hi Cinanul,

As Furion says, I only put a shield on the BSB to give him the 1+ rr save against magic and missiles. This is easily important enough to spend the points on. I like having the option to run the BSB out of his unit: not often, but it can be very handy- like when you want to charge out of the silver helms to take out harassers, or if you want to go gun-killing or wizard hunting without taking the whole unit with you. Obviously, if you're running an expensive character around by himself, you don't want him getting killed by crossbows!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Forcing the Dual-Charge

Seredain wrote:
dabber wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Daemons Turn 2
The big deal, however, came when my opponent declared a charge with his first bloodletter horde against my white lions. The lions and swordmasters were stood in a perfect line so that, in the event of being charged by a horde, both units would be hit and so could support each other.
I don't think that is correct. A unit can only charge two targets if there is absolutely no way to avoid it. (pg 18). They seem perfectly capable of going off the other side of your White Lions, towards the archers. Thoughts?

There's a bit of a rules clash, here. The one you reference required the daemons to only declare against one target, but the rules governing 'aligning to the enemy' (p. 20) required the bloodletters to maximise contact with the white lions. This meant the last BL model to my right going corner-to-corner with the rightmost white lion model and, because of its wide base, this brought the BL model (and therefore the unit) into contact with the swordmasters- hence forcing the dual-declaration.

Having read over p. 18 again, though, you may be right, since it only allows the dual declaration "if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another". I think the words "at all" give this rule precedence over the other, here? Certainly there was enough room on the far side, so perhaps the bloodletters should have completed their charge against the lions (assuming a successful charge roll) and simply been prevented from maximising contact if that caused them to clip the swordmasters and force the dual-declaration. Sound right?

I've found the answer to this- and it's as supposed. If in doubt- have a look in the FAQ!
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920636a_FAQ_Warhammer_Rulebook__V1_5.pdf

Q: If I can only maximise the number of models fighting by
contacting another enemy unit, must I declare a charge against that
unit? (p20)
A: No.


So, if you want to protect a specific unit from getting overwhelmed for a turn (if your enemy has a charge on), you'll need to deploy units, in a perfect line, on both sides rather than just one. If, for example, I wanted to protect the small unit of white lions from having to fight by themselves for a turn, I might run a formation like this:

Image

So, if the bloodletters want to charge the lions, they have to declare a dual-charge, either against the spears + lions, or the lions + swordmasters. If I deploy the spears even a single inch back, though, the bloodletters are not forced to maximise contact so as to touch the swordmasters, and may charge the white lions alone as per the above ruling.

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Battle Report – 2500 High Elves vs 2685 Lizardmen

The Lists

We've looked at these already but for the sake of convenience I'll record them again here. In fact, there were a couple of tiny changes made to my list since, once again, I was far outnumbered in points!

High Elves

Seredain
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec - 281

Lecalion
Archmage - Level 4, Life Magic, Dispel Scroll - 280

Caradath
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone - 175

30 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 300
14 Archers - Musician, Standard - 169
14 Archers - Musician - 159

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard, Potion of Foolhardiness, Banner of Sorcery - 289
12 White Lions - Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields - 192
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100
2 Eagles - 100

= 2500 points

Spells: Awakening of the Wood, Throne of Vines, Shield of Thorns, Dwellers Below. No health spells! It's finally happened! Arrgh!


Lizardmen

Slann Mage Priest- Loremaster (Life), Focus of Rumination
Skink Priest- Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Heavens Lore, Ancient Stegadon, Engine of the Gods
Skink Priest- Level 2, Cloak of Feathers, Diadem of Power (may store power dice to use as dispel dice)
Scar-Veteran BSB- Sword of Strife, Enchanted Shield, Light Armour

25 Saurus Warriors- Spears & Shields
24 Saurus Warriors- Hand Weapons & Shields (BSB here)
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

20 Temple Guard, Full Command
4 Kroxigor
1 Stegadon

1 Salamander- 4 handlers

= 2685 points

Heavens spells: Chain Lightning (Engine priest); Iceshard Blizzard, Curse of the Midnight Wind


Deployment

My opponent had set up the table before we started and I was perfectly happy with it. I was looking at a wood ahead of my on the left, a marsh on the far side of the table (centre left in my opponent's deployment zone), and a tower centre right, beyond which lay two small farm paddocks on the right flank. A small hill stood helpfully in each of our deployment zones.

My opponent started deploying first and, before long, had his blocks all deployed fairly close to the centre of the field. I had many more drops than him, so he had to commit all his expensive units without knowing which flank my knights were going to go on (the marsh on my left was an influence, but not a game-changer). In the end, I was looking at a simple saurus line with a bloody great dinosaur in the middle of it and flanked by the salamander + kroxigor and the second stegadon. The temple guard took shelter behind the kroxigor, looking presumably to break formation after a turn or two and come out to fight (my opponent put them here because he was afraid of my swamping with cavalry if he'd put them out by themselves). Far out on each flank stood a unit of skinks, looking to run harassment.

My deployment was the 'aggressive' set piece: my silver helms, dragon princes and chariot were all deployed together to get as much hitting power into as small a space as quickly as possible, though I'd kept them back so that, if my opponent cut inside the tower, I could redirect some to the centre. My defensive flank was based around the hill on my left: a nice concentration of shooting force with both archer units and the repeater deployed close together, with the 30 spearelves interposed between them to stop the kroxigor opposite.

The white lions and swordmasters stood in the centre of my army, the white lions ready either to fight with the spearelves to hold the krox/temple guard combo, or to throw themselves at the ancient stegadon. Both eagles started in the centre too to hold up the lizards until my knights had broken through. The swordmasters stood ready to carve into some saurus infantry. Since I had my opponent overlapped on both flanks in some force (the krox wouldn't stand up to a concerted archer/spear combo), my centre was relatively weak. I would need to punch through quickly on my right or else a saurus/dinosaur combo would go all stompy stompy on my elites and archmage.

Seredain's Giant Blade was surely going to come in handy against these beasts. Game on!

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:35 am 
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About your deployment with the chariot. Why do you deploy the chariot with the front first? If you put him with his side to the enemy line first you can then use his free reform and gain some inches right before your first movement phase. Or is it that you dont need those small boost in inches?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:12 am 
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Lizzy's just look weird in the snow. :D

Quote:
If you put him with his side to the enemy line first you can then use his free reform and gain some inches

this is making me frown

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:41 am 
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Shinzou wrote:
About your deployment with the chariot. Why do you deploy the chariot with the front first? If you put him with his side to the enemy line first you can then use his free reform and gain some inches right before your first movement phase. Or is it that you dont need those small boost in inches?

In most gaming communities this is considered bad sportsmanship.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Well, I was told by a friend about this and used it on the tournament we attended, and nobody said to me that it was a shady move... But if it considered bad sportmanship then I wont us it anymore.


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A friend does it with his Abomination and the only thing I don't like is it looks rubbish! In a world where people will use reform tricks to do things like enter a central watchtower on turn 1 this is pretty minor.

And besides it might not be a trick you wanna give away to an opponent with multiple steggardons :D


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Furion wrote:
In most gaming communities this is considered bad sportsmanship.


+1


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Seredain,

How does your roster work against VC? The most typical VC roster in Poland / Germany look like that:
Quote:
1 Vampire Lord @ 420.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 3; Necromancy
The Master: Summon Ghouls [15.0]
The Arkayne: Dark Acolyte [30.0]
The Severed: Ghoulkin [25.0]
Fencer's Blades [35.0]
Helm of Commandment [30.0]
Charmed Shield [5.0]
Dispel Scroll [25.0]

1 Vampire @ 135.0 Pts
Magic Level 1; Lore of Shadow
The Arkayne: Forbidden Lore [35.0]

1 Wight King @ 235.0 Pts
Battle Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Heavy armour; Shield
The Drakenhof Banner [125.0]

18+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 160.0 Pts
29+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 248.0 Pts
29+1 Crypt Ghouls w/ Champion @ 248.0 Pts

28 Grave Guard @ 439.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; FCG
Banner of the Barrows [45.0]

4+1 Wraiths @ 275.0 Pts
1 Varghoulf @ 175.0 pts


Manangeable / Easy / Hard ?

cheers
Furion

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Furion wrote:
Manangeable / Easy / Hard ?

People don't play the Black Coach?

The list looks beatable to me. There's a lot of points in characters here, esp the Vamp Lord who I imagine will go with the GG. With a list like Seredain's I think the best bet would be to hold back off the big block of GG using eagles to redirect and run around killing the rest of the list. Units of 30 Ghouls are a lot less scary than units of 40 in a horde! deployment would be key to this game I think to give the best chance to avoid the deathstar GG. Also, dwellers would be good on any of these units. Definitely doable and a lot nicer than some Vamp lists I've played against.


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