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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Hey, just wanted to say, after my first two games I really see the value in adding a Bolt Thrower or two and have 25-30 archers.

Seems like it gives so much more tactical flexibility than not having it. You also don't need to rely on a mage to cast magic missiles, even though they always hit.

This was a part of the army I really underrated.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:03 am 
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I have been reading this thread for a while now and Seredain's Cav prince list has inspired me to give it ago.
I have made a few changes and come up with my own variation of the original list. So far I have had 3 wins and no losses so have been very impressed. My opponents and onlookers often look at me sideways as I plonk down the silverhelms and have seriously under estimated the power of the unit.
I call it the budget cutbacks list. Its basicly a budget version of Seredain's Cav prince list.

Noble, B Steed, Dragon Armour, Helm of fortune, Shield, Great Weapon , Talisman of Loec, Opal Amulet

Archmage L3 (Life), Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand

Noble, Dragon Armour, Reaver Bow, Charmed Shield, Eagle, Lance, Potion of Foolhardness

Noble, BSB, B steed, Heavy Armour, Dawnstone, Great Weapon, DragonHelm, Shield, Ironcurse Icon

Spearmen x 35 std, mus, Gleaming Pendent
Archers x 12, Mus
Archers x 12, Mus

Phoenix Guard x 18, Full command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Eternal Flame
Silver Helms x 10 (shields), Full Command
Dragon Princes x 5, Mus
Tiranoc Chariot
Eagle
Bolt thrower

2396

The idea is target saturation. There is so much for the enemy to take down that the actually ingore the biggest threat that is the Silverhelm unit. The Reaver noble acts as a second bolt thrower and also as combat support to clean up smaller units or add that combat res to a stagnet combat. Phoenix are there as a anvil unit as well as points denial I also really like the fluff and models :D


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:31 am 
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There is utterly no way to justify taking a L3 when you can take L4.

Edit: grammar

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Last edited by Furion on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:49 pm 
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when you dispel at +4, and can get the extra spell for 10pts, you can justificate (thats justify btw) it very easily. its cheaper.
as casting values arent really that important (you'll need to roll higher than your opponent rather than the casting value most of the time), you can get away with a lvl3 in a HE list and spend points elsewhere.
he did also say, its a budget-cutbacks list, not a premier-spend-all-points-on-magic list

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Jkeg wrote:
My opponents and onlookers often look at me sideways as I plonk down the silverhelms and have seriously under estimated the power of the unit.

I never get bored of this. :)

I like the theme you have going on here: your Helm Hammer is still very hard hitting indeed, but you have the added oomph and flexibility provided by the eagle noble, who I think really suits this kind of army. He's great and, in part, makes up for your loss of an elite infantry unit (in terms of combat strength), while adding all that fast-moving goodness. Phoenix guard could work nicely- 18 is a good size- though it's worth you considering another lore of magic. Since Life lore protects vulnerable troops but adds nothing in terms of killing power (shield of thorns excluded), it's well suited to killy-but-squidgy units like swordmasters. Phoenix guard are already tough but not particularly killy, so you might want to get a bit experimental with your lore choice to find something else which suits them. I'm not saying that Life isn't the right choice but, in terms of synergy, there are others lores to look at for phoenix guard. Shadow is popular.

As for the Level 3/ Level 4 debate I'd note that, with the Silver Wand and Guardian Phoenix, you've already spent the 35 points necessary to upgrade the archmage. I'd go for a Level 4 caster over a 5+ ward every time. You'll have to play carefully with him, but when is that not the case?

YoungKing wrote:
Hey, just wanted to say, after my first two games I really see the value in adding a Bolt Thrower or two and have 25-30 archers.

Seems like it gives so much more tactical flexibility than not having it. You also don't need to rely on a mage to cast magic missiles, even though they always hit.

This was a part of the army I really underrated.

I'm glad you've restated this here, YK, since it's something I feel strongly but haven't commented much upon during the 'magic-update' discussion we've been having recently.

It's not that High Elf shooting is particularly powerful or, in itself, even amazingly good value (unless you take loads of it and get your Arrow Curse and Withering on). It's just that it has both excellent range & good manoeuvreability (move + shoot, Ld8/9/10 swift reforms)- making it tactically flexible. You can respond well to enemy movements and reach any part of the board that you need to, in force, in a way that 24" move-or-fire Empire handgunners can't manage. It's also effective against the kind of light units that can, despite their sometimes-cheap cost, give our fragile troops such headaches. For a list like mine, which relies on freedom of movement, a decent amount of non-dispellable shooting is just so useful. A lesson I've re-learned from my latest battle, in fact, as we shall see...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Quote:
There is utterly no way to justify taking a L3 when you can take L4.


Quote:
when you dispel at +4, and can get the extra spell for 10pts, you can justificate (thats justify btw) it very easily. its cheaper.
as casting values arent really that important (you'll need to roll higher than your opponent rather than the casting value most of the time), you can get away with a lvl3 in a HE list and spend points elsewhere.
he did also say, its a budget-cutbacks list, not a premier-spend-all-points-on-magic list


Thank you, just what I was going to say. :D


Quote:
I like the theme you have going on here: your Helm Hammer is still very hard hitting indeed, but you have the added oomph and flexibility provided by the eagle noble, who I think really suits this kind of army. He's great and, in part, makes up for your loss of an elite infantry unit (in terms of combat strength), while adding all that fast-moving goodness. Phoenix guard could work nicely- 18 is a good size- though it's worth you considering another lore of magic. Since Life lore protects vulnerable troops but adds nothing in terms of killing power (shield of thorns excluded), it's well suited to killy-but-squidgy units like swordmasters. Phoenix guard are already tough but not particularly killy, so you might want to get a bit experimental with your lore choice to find something else which suits them. I'm not saying that Life isn't the right choice but, in terms of synergy, there are others lores to look at for phoenix guard. Shadow is popular


Thank you, yeah shadow would be my second choice. Life does have dewelers for those big horde units I use it to soften them up before the kill assuming I roll it that is.

Quote:
As for the Level 3/ Level 4 debate I'd note that, with the Silver Wand and Guardian Phoenix, you've already spent the 35 points necessary to upgrade the archmage. I'd go for a Level 4 caster over a 5+ ward every time. You'll have to play carefully with him, but when is that not the case?


I think this is personal preferance more than anything. He is my most expensive character and has no protection otherwise. I just feel better knowing if it all goes pear shaped I still have a chance to save a wound or to.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:10 am 
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Battle Report - 2500 High Elves vs 2570 Daemons of Chaos
Blood and Glory

The latest game of the campaign saw me face another Daemons army. I turned up feeling pretty confident since I'd spent about 200 gold upgrading my list with all the lovely gold from my lovely mines. But, when I got to the games bunker, I'd found that I'd suffered the Fool's Gold event again! Arrgh! That was the 4th time in a row! Not being one to grumble, though (much), I quickly redrew my list, taking out all the lovely things I'd bought (Banner of Sorcery, another eagle, etc etc) and redistributed a few points from items I wouldn't need to things I would. My list was as follows:

Seredain
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec

Lecalion
Level 4 Archmage - Life Magic, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Protection

Caradath
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard

Acheron
Level 1 Mage - High Magic, Jewel of the Dusk

35 Spearelves - Full Command, Gleaming Pennant
14 Archers - Musician
11 Archers

14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Standard
10 White Lions - Full Command, Gem of Courage
8 Silver Helms - Musician, Shields
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100
1 Eagle - 50

Spells: Throne of Vines, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth, Dwellers Below


My opponent had:

Tzeentch Herald- Level 2, Knows all Lore of Life, Spellbreaker (general)
Tzeentch Herald- Level 2, Knows all Lore of Beasts, Spellbreaker
Nurgle Herald- BSB- 4+ regen (to him and his unit), -2 Leadership Icon, ASL nerf (any model in base contact has I1 and the ASL special rule)

36 Bloodletters - Full Command, Icon of 3d6 Charges
36 Bloodletters - Full Command
19 Plaguebearers - Full Command (BSB here)

6 Flamers
6 Flamers
2 Fiends
2 Fiends
3 Nurgling bases

The board was as follows:
Image
That's a charnal pit in the bottom corner of the picture and an 'initiative-test-or-die' swamp at the top. The forests were just ordinary, as were the buildings and walls.

Deployment was a tricky one for me. Although the Daemons had (as usual) all deployed by the time I placed my valuable units, the dense terrain of the board and, in particular, the central forest, had made things difficult. My opponent had made a nice move in putting his skirmisher flamers in the forest where my dragon princes couldn't touch them (the flamers were stubborn, meaning any attack which didn't wipe them would be quickly countered by daemon infantry). The plaguebearers,a valuable unit with their two standards, were covered well by these central flamers and by a horde of bloodletters to their right. In other words, the daemon centre, which included both casters (starting with a flamer unit each), was solid. I'd have to go round a flank. The best path was from my right flank, opposite which stood the fiends. My helms would cut through them and get round the back of the enemy in time to join up with the elites who, together with the chariot, would take on the nearest bloodletters. The archers and spears would hold my left flank for as long as possible while my right flank went to work. A slight problem here, mind, were the enemy's unit of nurglings. In order to prevent them deploying behind me or to my flank, I placed the repeater right by the charnal pit on the left flank. If I'd remembered about the scouts and moved the green archers a little further over, I needn't have done this but, as it was, the poor repeater was vulnerable. The centre of my army, though, was built around the semi-walled enclosure which covered my core troops nicely from the flamers and would, hopefully, allow them to stick it out. The dragon princes went to the left of the spears, to provide a disincentive for the flamers to advance within range and, hopefully, take advantage of any careless manoeuvres from the bloodletters deployed opposite my elites, by redeploying to the right-centre and taking them on in conjunction with the infantry and chariot. Once I'd overrun that flank, I figured I could overwhelm the daemon units one standard at a time. I breathed a word of thanks that I'd included a swordmaster standard in my list (a total fluke!) and prepared myself for a bloodbath. Game on!

Daemon centre and right flank
Image

Daemon left flank
Image

High Elf deployment
Image

Image
Notice the nurglings sat by the building on the far side.

The Field
Image

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:51 am 
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This campaign doesn't sound very well rounded and fair if a single person can be hit by Fool's gold so many times in a row. Seems like a Mario Kart-esk system where some players get screwed by playing better. Being able to change your list looks to be a big advantage for some armies more than others; what with being able to specialize builds to deal with the known cannons and mortar of Empire/Dwarves etc.

Side Note: I really want you to win this Campaign because your tactical play is of such a higher difficulty than all the other army lists I've seen you fight and back here in the southern colonies I'm suffering loss after loss against the same lists while they call me cheezy for having ASF. It is incredibly frustrating I tell you. :x So let me live vivaciously through you and crush all your opposition. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:02 am 
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Battle Report!!! YAY! My work day won't be boring tomorrow!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:15 am 
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Seredain wrote:
It's not that High Elf shooting is particularly powerful or, in itself, even amazingly good value (unless you take loads of it and get your Arrow Curse and Withering on). It's just that it has both excellent range & good manoeuvreability (move + shoot, Ld8/9/10 swift reforms)- making it tactically flexible. You can respond well to enemy movements and reach any part of the board that you need to, in force, in a way that 24" move-or-fire Empire handgunners can't manage. It's also effective against the kind of light units that can, despite their sometimes-cheap cost, give our fragile troops such headaches. For a list like mine, which relies on freedom of movement, a decent amount of non-dispellable shooting is just so useful. A lesson I've re-learned from my latest battle, in fact, as we shall see...


'...archers are the most necessary thing in the world for an army; but they should be counted in thousands, for in small numbers they are worthless.' - Philippe de Commynes

http://www.r3.org/bookcase/de_commynes/decom_2.html


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:20 pm 
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That's clearly a tough Daemon list with the double 'letters and flamers. The Life Herald is obvious, is Beasts an especially good Lore for Daemons? Also a bit confused by him not taking the Fiends singly to use as redirectors. I like Plaguebearers but again, a top pick in 8th? So a bit quirky I guess but still strong.

Those Flamers always seem to hide don't they? A sod for shooting to take down.

I agree with Natio, it's great to see this list you've developed yourself take on and beat what are more or less power builds. Do us proud!

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:30 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I like Plaguebearers but again, a top pick in 8th?


Yup probably better than bloodletters in fact against many many enemies...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Yup probably better than bloodletters in fact against many many enemies...

Care to explain?

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Eldria wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
I like Plaguebearers but again, a top pick in 8th?


Yup probably better than bloodletters in fact against many many enemies...


I doubt that, the only bonuses over bloodletters they have in 8th is that they are T4 and have poisoned weapons. The fact that they can no longer take a regenerate save as well as their ward is a significant nerf. Add that to I1, which makes them a tempting target for purple sun an pit of shades, and I can't imagine a time when I would want them over bloodletters.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:58 pm 
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In reference to the above discussion, my opponent had taken the plaguebearers to act as a solid bunker unit for his Nurgle BSB carrying the -2 leadership icon. The herald granted his unit 4+ regeneration- an excellent quality for a bunker unit and, I suspect, the reason plaguebearers were chosen over more bloodletters (I guess he wanted to keep the icon alive rather than put it at risk in one of his main fighting hordes). Even so, there were only 18 PB's in the daemon army, compared with 70 bloodletters.

Anyway, on with the report...

Battle Report continued - 2500 High Elves vs 2570 Daemons

Daemons won the roll-off for the first turn (fair and square) and chose to go first.

Daemons Turn 1

My opponent guessed I was going to try and encircle him with my knights so decided to bring his left-flank BL horde (my right) into play as quickly as possible against my infantry. They marched 10" forward to the stone building stood before my elites and chariot. Everything else came forward too, the central flamers getting as far forward as possible but finding themselves just out of range of the white lions. The other daemon units on my left began the long trudge toward my part of the field- the action was obviously going to take place on their left flank and, to have an impact, they'd need to get over there quickly. To buy that flank some more time, the two pairs of fiends slid to either side of the gap between the buildings to try and hold up my knights next turn should I try and run through the gap.

My opponent rolled a poor 6 power dice this turn and couldn't get much passed the magical defences thrown up by the archmage Lecalion. Amber spear managed to kill 3 swordmasters, though this was annoying rather than fatal.

Shooting was not eventful- no flamers were, as yet, in range of anything.

High Elves Turn 1

In placing his fiends my opponent had slightly underestimated the speed of elven knights. The nearest pair, on my far right flank, were only 16" or 17" away so I declared the charge straight away: I'd cut one pair to pieces, reform to face the second pair and dare them to charge my prince's bodyguard next turn. But, typically, I failed the charge and the silver helms oozed forwards four inches! Damn.

Image
The elven steeds, terrified by the daemons' stench, refuse to close with the enemy and waste a valuable High Elf turn.

On the other flank, my cavalry performed equally poorly. Having drawn the enemy to my left, I'd resolved to shift the dragon princes over quickly in order to threaten the flank of the nearest bloodletter horde should they get a charge off against my infantry (and also to encourage the central flamers to keep their distance). To achieve this without exposing the knights to a charge from the other daemon infantry (which would, disastrously, bring them into the game far too quickly), I kept the unit close to my lines as it moved so that one knight had to vault the wall surrounding my spearelves and blue archers. That one knight failed his dangerous terrain test and tumbled to the ground. Other movement was pretty much limited to the eagle hopping behind the oncoming bloodletters- the better to provide more harassment options in the following turn while simultaneously staying out of sight from any of the oncoming enemy infantry.

Image
Don't enter the Badminton Horse Trials, boys...

Magic went a little more to plan. Although I only rolled 7 power dice against 5 dispel dice, my opponent was unable to prevent me putting a Shield of Thorns around the silver helms. Throne of Vines, annoyingly, had been dispelled.

The shooting phase was sub-par, though. Together the repeater (who wasn't going to waste the few shots he'd be able to make trying to take out the nurglings), and the blue archers could only fell a single model from the central flamers. The green archers, always good performers even in the face of overwhelming odds, took out a nurgling base.

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Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:25 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Quote:
Yup probably better than bloodletters in fact against many many enemies...

Care to explain?

:)


Its the T4 and regenerate. Bloodletters are killy but extremely easy to kill back and very vulnerable to shooting.

Plague bearers are not easy to kill even with flaming attacks and they will hit back really rather hard. (not quite at the bloodletters level but often its enough)

Being I1 only matters against purple sun as pit will be lucky to hit enough to really matter and death is not that common on casters mobile enough to flank the pbs.

The best demon armies i've seen run 1 unit of each at ~30 mark with herald. Also the herald of nurgle being T5 and having some nasty magic plus arguably more useful powers than the bloodletters also makes a difference to the comparison.

I don't know if you play demons malcontent but if you do and have never tried the plaguebearers I would suggest you should before you comment further ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Given the Daemon lack of armour I can see the attraction of an anvil with T4 and a 4+ Save. 30 looks nice and solid while the 18 here is maybe not enough against Seredain's killing power.

I still think the Bloodletters offense is fearsome. All that S5 KB and especially the Hatred. PB's get the Poison of course and i like the re-roll to wound banner. Then there are the fringe benefits like the MR1 to factor in.

1 unit of each sounds very sensible.

Edit: OK I've just engaged my brain and taken in Seredain's point about it being a bunker. I'm still suspicious of that many points not seeing combat though.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:11 am 
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Daemons Turn 2

The fiends, who'd strongly considered charging the silver helms en masse (the characters would kill them eventually, but my opponent figured they could shred the knights before they did), were sufficiently put off by the thorny shield and decided to run as harassers. The pair on my right marched right passed the knights and parked themselves just infront of the elven chariot (ack, I always underestimate fiends' movement!). The other pair stayed more-or-less where they were, to try and encourage another failed charge from my lazy horses.

The big deal, however, came when my opponent declared a charge with his first bloodletter horde against my white lions. I was not keen on fighting this block without getting all my elites and the chariot involved as well, so receiving a charge was not ideal. The daemons joyfully declared that they carried the icon of 'add +d6 to your charge move' (catchy title, eh?) and surged forward... only a few inches. Even with the extra dice the charge was failed and the 'letters came on about 5". Next turn the charge would be mine! The rest of the daemon army continued its trek, with each flamer unit bringing itself within range of some useful targets and, in the case of the central unit, guarding the flank of the 'letters from a charge by my dragon princes.

Image
The daemons display an unstable grip on military manoeuvres, deploying both awesome speed and terrible slowness. Such is Chaos.

In the shooting phase, a combination of movement and long-range put paid to any accuracy the flamers might have had. The repeater bolt thrower managed to survive a hail of shots, taking only a single wound, while the few wounds successfully scored against the white lions were largely saved by the Chracian elves' mighty cloaks. Only one collapsed to the ground and his companions, unfazed, stood firm.

The magic phase had more impact. My opponent rolled a decent 8 power dice (channelling 1), against my 4 dispel dice, and went to work. Throne of Vines and Flesh to Stone- both targetted at the nearest bloodletters- were dispelled (the High Elven +5 bonus proving invaluable), but with his last 3 dice my opponent threw a huge amber spear at the flank of the dragon princes, slew two and cackled madly as they failed their panic test on Leadership 7 (because of the Nurgle herald's terrifying icon), and fled headlong through the column of spearelves. The noble spears, stood right at the back of the field, were themselves shaken and failed their first panic test! I said a word of thanks for the Gleaming Pennant, took the re-roll and grinned broadly as the spears stood their ground. A 5-point item had saved me a 350-point unit. Phew!

Image
Disaster is narrowly averted as the elven citizens hold their nerve and refuse to give in to rising panic. Eventually.

Image
End of Daemon Turn 2. Despite some nasty shocks, the High Elven line holds firm and prepares to launch its counter-attack.

Image
On the left flank, the archers stand firm against the overwhelming power of the daemonic hordes.

High Elves Turn 2

Image
Charge!

Elven infantry and chariotry surged into the massed ranks of daemons- no failed charges here, baby! The silver helms likewise got their act together and successfully closed with the 2nd fiend pair: a quick combat phase later and they'd be staring at the rear of the bloodletter horde.

I'd taken a calculated risk in throwing the chariot against the 'letters. On the plus side, its weight would be added to the great charge- my primary concern. The downside, though, was that the fiends were now free to roam as they chose- I had no light units that could either shoot them or block them off now that the chariot was engaged. As things stood they couldn't do much (they had no charge on against my elites next turn), but their presence (in conjunction with those close-in flamers) did mean that my mages couldn't move freely around the board without getting fried, speared or eaten. I'd have to hunker them down with the spearelves and make sure to dispel Dwellers when it inevitably came against the unit. The spears themselves pivoted to face the fiends (as did the princes, who'd rallied) to prevent them getting any closer without offering me a charge. The blue archers slid sideways to allow the manoeuvre.

Now that I'd launched my attack on the right flank, the eagle and green archers both prepared to sacrifice themselves to hold up the daemons on my left. The eagle parked itself infront of the plaguebearers and the archers marched into the face of the unengaged bloodletter horde.

Magic was not as influential as I'd have liked. I got 7 power dice +1 from the jewel, to my opponent's 6 dispel dice. I got up Throne of Vines, then but my attempts to cast Regrowth and Shield of Saphery (on the swordmasters) were both dispelled. I'd have to win combat the old-fashioned way.

Shooting was pretty rubbish to boot- the green archers were too busy marching and saying their prayers to shoot anything at all, while the blue archers and repeater couldn't hit, let alone wound, the central flamers. Curs'ed daemons.

Image

In combat, a slightly poor performance by the white lions (not many hits) and chariot (2 impact hits) was completely made up for by the excellence of the swordmasters, who went to town on the bloodletters and killed them in droves. The daemons couldn't manage that many kills in reply (one attack per model hitting on 4+ ain't that scary). 14 daemons were dust by the end of the phase- good enough. To worsen their mortal strife, the silver helms easily dispatched the two fiends and reformed to face the bloodletters' rear. Excellent.

Image
The High Elves cut into and envelope the daemons' left flank and, with light troops, prevent the other flank from doing anything about it.

Daemons Turn 3

There was little my opponent could do this movement phase. The plaguebearers and 2nd bloodletter horde had to charge their respective harassers to get anything done, so they did. The archers and eagle held their ground and prepared to die. The flamers, much more of an immediate worry, bombed forwards to get within close-range of my archers and spears- perhaps hoping to cause some panic tests with shooting. The fiends on my far right flank, fearful of the fortified position I'd built against them with spears and dragon princes, kept back and bided their time.

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Unholy blue flame-people, Batman!

Magic was a total dud for my opponent- he got very few dice and could do very little with them- nothing of consequence, in fact. Shooting was far more effective, however. Despite the shelter of their protective wall, the blue archers absolutely wilted to a huge hail of firebolts thrown at them by all the flamers. 8 died and the remainder, too close to the nurgle herald's Scary Icon, panicked and fled to the right, narrowly avoiding the already-nervous spearelves.

In combat, the green archers sold their lives dearly and absolutely wailed on the 2nd bloodletter horde, killing a pretty substantial handful. Then, of course, they were all torn to pieces. The daemons reformed to face my right flank and narrowed their frontage. Nearby, the nurglings ate the repeater bolt thrower while the plaguebearers likewise exploded the eagle and turned to face my right. The fight between the elites and bloodletters, however, went heavily my way once again- leaving only 11 'letters still standing. Next turn, their standard would be mine!

Image
The archers put up a terrific fight, but their fate is sealed.

High Elves Turn 3

The silver helms crashed into the rear of the now-decimated bloodletter horde to bring them their doom. The blue archers rallied and faced forward. Other movement was limited to the spearelves reforming the face outward against the flamers and oncoming bloodletters: if the khornite daemons wanted to get into the game, they'd have to cross through the spears' sphere of influence. The flamers prevented the bloodletters from charging the spears directly next turn but would, conversely, provide the spear column with a stepping stone into the centre of the field if they managed a good charge themselves. I only had to worry about suffering yet another round of flamer shooting...

Shooting was non-existent now, since the only archers on the field were busy rallying. Magic needed to be good, however- my small elite units needed serious repair if they were going to stand against the combined power of flamers and fiends next turn. The white lions needed a regrowth- they were down to 4 models and looking seriously vulnerable- and the swordmasters needed (badly!) a ward save to protect them from all those flamers. None of this was going to happen, however, since I rolled terribly for power dice and didn't get a single spell up successfully. Oh dear.

Combat went the way it was supposed to, though, and the bloodletters were easily totalled, I claimed my first standard and my units all used the wonderfully flexible post-combat reform [edit: error! error! Please see below on the differences between "reforming from victory" and reforming when "no more enemy"], to set up a new line facing the two remaining daemon blocks. To cover the inevitable fiend charge next turn, the chariot was positioned behind them to provide a counter-charge. If my elites could survive the flamers and fiends next round (and assuming my magic phases started to perform better), the plan was looking good. If...

Image

Image
End of Turn 3

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:52 am 
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After your turn 3 from you pics, the chariot has moved from being inline with the bloodletters to the left of the building to being behind the building out charge arch of the fiends. Even with your free reform you get from wining the combat there is no way of being able to move that far. Can you please explain? Also the swordmasters have moved aswell to be inline with the whitelions.

I really enjoy your battle reports and I understand its a summery and most is probably wrote from memory. I just cant see how that is possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:11 pm 
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I would assume the pic's actually from turn 4 then...

Looking forward to the rest of the report!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Jkeg I'm glad you raised this issue as, post battle, I was wondering the same thing about post-combat reforms. Under the rules (or rather the errata'd version of them), in a post-combat reform (or "reform from victory"), you're allowed to reform the unit without having to make this reform around the centre of the unit, as in normal reforms. This gives you an enormous amount of leeway, but I think I took it too far in this instance.

EDIT: This is a mistake (see Stormie's post below). The errata refers only to "Reforming from Victory" as described on page 55 of the rulebook- i.e. only to reforms which take place when the unit is still engaged in combat. Where you wipe out an enemy unit, you may make a reform but this is done as a normal reform as described on page 14- ie around the centre of the unit. Lesson learned!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Daemons Turn 4

As far as the main combats were looking, I felt things were going well for me. Unfortunately my opponent still had his amazingly flexible and powerful fiends and flamers to try and even the score before the next big combat took place. The next turn would matter.

The fiends began proceedings by charging my 4 remaining white lions in the rear. I figured I'd kill one and hold, so this wasn't such a big deal. Of far greater worry were the flamers, who moved with the speed and flexibility of skirmishers to bring every last model in range of the defenseless swordmasters (who had no protection of any kind after my duff magic phase and were now looking very worried indeed). Yeesh. The bloodletters, unable to charge the spearelves because of the interposing flamers, marched toward the silver helms to bring themselves into play and, especially, to protect the plaguebearers and their vulnerable standards from the elven knights, who'd have a charge on next turn. If I took that charge, the helms would end up with a bloodletter block in their flank- no good. The plaguebearers themselves kept their distance from the elves in order to allow this manoeuvre.

Image
As the daemon infantry close ranks to protect their valuable standards, the flamers and fiends move in to even the odds.

Magic. I prayed for a low roll and got totally the opposite. My opponent rolled 10 and channelled 2 more power dice on top! Lecalion, concentrating hard, channelled a dispel dice himself but this only brought me to 6. My opponent could, effectively, do what he wanted. He started by throwing up Throne of Vines before granting his bloodletters, nervous of my prince and his retinue, Toughness 7. I didn't bother trying to dispel either of these because the next cast was obviously going to be Dwellers against the spear column containing both of my casters. The Tzeentch herald threw all the dice he had left at it and...

...failed to cast.
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Numpty.

I'd effectively thrown away my dispel dice but this was fine by me! Shooting, then. The flamers spurted great balls of flame at my swordmasters, who merely stood in disbelief as the vast majority of these fireballs flew over their heads or plummeted into the ground before their feet. I lost only 5 swordmasters and quickly breathed a word of thanks to Asuryan, master of balance (who clearly had a distaste for flamers in particular- can't think why). Toughness 7 bloodletters were a problem, but I'd rather have had the living swordmasters and was now very, very pleased. My opponent took it like a champ, but he had reason to be annoyed.

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Fail.
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Epic Fail.

Combat went much better for the daemons. The white lions couldn't hit the fiends and failed to manage a single wound. The fiends, for their part, tore the white lions apart and reformed to face the chariot. Since they'd managed exactly 4 wounds, I made a mental note that 10 really is a significantly smaller unit size than 12: in this instance the loss of 2 models had cost me a unit and, more importantly, a standard.

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End of Daemon Turn 4

High Elves Turn 4

I wasn't going to get that lucky again against daemonic shooting and resolved to wipe those flamers out once and for all. The spearblock finally broke from its position and charged the nearest flamers- to my left. They had a very good chance to total this unit and overrun into the bloodletters, so I prayed for good dice. The swordmasters, too close to receive death by stand-and-shoot, charged the other flamer unit in the front while the 6 remaining blue archers charged them in the rear. Further to the right, the chariot charged the flamers, demanding vengeance for the death of their Chracian brothers. The 2 remaining dragon princes, hovering by my backline, turned to face this combat so that, if the chariot failed, they'd have a flank charge on next turn. This just left the silver helms, then. I deliberated for a long time as to the virtues of charging straight into the plaguebearers and claiming their BSB as my prize (in this instance the swordmasters would interpose themselves between the 'letters and the flank of my knights). In the end, I figured that discretion was the better part of valour. My cavalry would back up and allow my infantry to clear the field so that, when the big charge was eventually declared, I'd have more support on hand.

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Very annoyed at being out-harassed, for once, the High Elves move to reclaim the open field.

Magic gave me all the dice I needed- 9. Shield of Thorns and (crucially), Throne of Vines were still up- leaving Dwellers and Regrowth. If I could kill the enemy general (the Tzeentch herald) with Dwellers, the daemons army would drop to 3 fortitude points and break from the field. To draw some dice off, I attempted to regrow the swordmasters. My opponent used his last spellbreaker to prevent it (EDIT: I haven't mentioned it, but my opponent had already used a spellbreaker earlier in the game: unfortunately I can't quite remember when!). The herald's defenses were good, however, since he still had 7 dispel dice left to my 6 power dice. But 6 was all I needed...

Lecalion played it pretty safe, avoiding the miscasts, and Dwellers went off on the lone Tzeentch herald with a total cast of 27. The daemon threw all his dispel dice to resist it and scored a total of... 28! Bastard!

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In a titanic clash of wills, Lecalion is unable to overcome his opponent's defenses. Just.

Combat. The spearelves tore into the flamers but, even with all those ranks pushing forwards, only managed to bring the daemons down to one model after instability- not wipe them out. Damn. Things did not exactly go to plan in the other combat, either. The swordmasters and archers did fine against their opponents but, before they failed their instability and popped, the flamers brought down 3 swordmasters, a significant number now that they were so few. The remaining elves reformed to face the flank of the bloodletters, hoping for a good dose of regrowth from their patron archmage. Meanwhile, to the right, the chariot thundered into the fiends and managed to trample one of them into the dust. The other passed its instability test, however, and stood its ground.

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Slowly but surely, the elves bring the daemons down.

Daemons Turn 5

To try and stall the spearelf column further, the nurglings (who'd been dancing their way across the board all this time), charged them in the flank (in hindsight, and with only 1 flamer left alive, I should have reformed to face them).

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Nurgle's pets want to play.

This didn't change the basic position, however. Now that his light units were rapidly melting, my opponent found that his bloodletters were in a desperate quandary. They'd moved into the centre of the board because, with the flamers running around, they'd had no charge on against the spears and, further, they'd wanted to protect the plaguebearers from my knights. Now, however, they were in a much worse position. The spearelves might well wipe out the little daemons this turn (after wounds, ranks and all the rest of it) and, if they did, they'd have a charge on against the bloodletters' rear on my next turn. If my opponent turned to face the spears, however, they'd leave their rear open to a thunderous charge from Seredain and his knights, still at full strength, still with Shield of Thorns up and running. Surely, that would spell instant death. To escape, the bloodletters continued on their journey toward the helms, evading the spearelves by having the high elf archers interposed between them both. There was a flaw in the plan, however. The plaguebearers didn't have the room to wheel now that the bloodletters had advanced so far, so they were forced to take a free reform and could move only 4" in the same direction. This left their army's line dangerously broken...

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Elven knights stand ready to pounce as the daemons scramble for position in the centre of the field.

Magic saw my opponent get up another good amount of dice, though not overwhelming. He drew all my dispel dice out with an attempted Flesh to Stone on the plaguebearers, then threw another amber spear, this time at my swordmasters, who he really wanted dead after all this time! The noble elves were blessed, however. One was pierced easily by the magical bolt but, when rolling to wound the second (and last) swordmaster, my opponent rolled a 1. Aha! Praise be!

In combat, the chariot and fiend decided to have a chat about the nature of existence and did absolutely nothing to each other. The spears likewise seemed distracted and barely did anything to the nurglings (though they managed to skewer the last flamer). The little daemons held their ground and the spears were forced (to get the job done quickly), to turn to face their enemy and expand their frontage- sitting around was doing me no good.

High Elves Turn 5

My silver helms now had the opportunity they wanted. They charged forward headlong, straight passed the bloodletters, and smashed into the front of the plaguebearers. One knight was knocked from his horse as he charged through the forest, but no matter. The khornite daemons, now badly out of position, could do nothing to help. The dragon princes, who'd done nothing so far other than manage to stay on the field, decided to make their mark and charged in against the fiend fighting the chariot.

Image
The swiftness of the elven knights takes Khorne's minions completely by surprise, to the detriment of the followers of Nurgle.

During the magic phase, Lecalion used an average number of dice (perhaps 7 in total), to cast Shield of Saphery on the silver helms (dispelled) and a throne-boosted Regrowth on the swordmasters, who saw their ranks swell back to 7 models. Aha! It's a wonderful Life.

In the shooting phase, the archers aimed to get me the easy win again by pinging the Tzeentch herald out of this world. They nearly managed it, too- scoring 1 successful wound and forcing a successful 4+ ward on another.

This phase was all about the combat, however. The dragon princes, in recompense for their earlier cowardice, easily trashed the last fiend: they and the chariot now reorganised and faced the flank of the bloodletters. The spearelves likewise destroyed the nurglings and now reformed to face the rear of both daemon blocks. The helms, then. Seredain, in base contact with the nurgle herald, found his skill sapped by nasty vapours and was forced to strike last. His companions, perhaps equally befuddled, managed only 3 kills against the plaguebearers, who brought down a knight in reply. The elf lord now swung his sword and invoked his own blessings, however. The Talisman of Loec burned with a bright light which shattered the miasma of Nurgle's herald. Seredain's great sword cut the daemon clean in two and, even as it collapsed to the ground, its great icon was shattered into a thousand pieces. In an instant, the fear that had wavered elven hearts was dissipated. Victory would surely be theirs!

Image

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The High Elves close in around their enemies.

Daemons Turn 6

The bloodletters were powerless to aid the plaguebearers and didn't have any charges on for themselves, either. Seething with frustration, they turned to face the swordmasters, calling out taunts and challenges. For their part, the plaguebearers looked doomed unless the Life Herald could help them. Sure enough, he got an absolute tonne of power dice again (argh!!), and went to town on Life spells. I let throne of vines up (I only had enough dispel dice to stop one decent cast- and that was for Flesh to Stone. Unfortunately, FtS was the next spell on the agenda and it went off irresistibly. Shit! My opponent's remaining dice, thrown at a Curse of Anraheir against the silver helms, was dispelled. Still, the damage had been done.

Image
Toughness 8 plaguebearers: the fight gets serious.

If anyone could overcome the uber-bearers, it was Seredain. Sure enough, he smote two to the ground (5+ to wound is better than 6+ to wound). With their lord leading by example, Caradath and the silver helms didn't do badly either, slaying another two or three of the foul daemons. Another knight died for the cause but, in spite of everything, the combat had gone my way. Infuriatingly, though, the daemons stayed stable and held on to their standard- the last one I needed to win the game. It was all down to my Turn 6 and, standing between me and scenario victory, were T8 troops.

High Elves Turn 6

The spearelves were ready to lend a hand, however, and surged across the field into the rear of the plaguebearers. What strength of arm couldn't achieve, strength in numbers surely would. Getting hold of a good dose of power, the High Elf mages raised a shield over the citizen soldiers and redrew a shield of thorns around them too (this time, since Throne of Vines was up, at strength 4). The shield did as much as could be expected, killing only 1 or 2 daemons (but every little helps).

Buoyed by the sight of their fellows rushing to their aid, Seredain's knights fought furiously and killed a good number, perhaps 4 or 5, plaguebearers. The spearelves, throwing down an enormous number of attacks (and str 3 was as good as Str6 here), scored another 3 kills. The remaining plaguebearers found themselves outmatched and unable to kill enough elves to cling on. Surrounded, and with a column of furious elven warriors pushing through the back of their formation, they withered and died- all of them. Their standard slumped into the dirt and slowly vanished. The elves held their own banners high into the sky and cried out: "Glory!"

Image
Victory to the High Elves!

(slightly marred by my daemonic opponent taking revenge and accidentally knocking my prince off his horse, breaking him in two. He'll need pinning!)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Yay! :3

Also, you reform a lot differently that I have been - I've always played it that you can only rotate the unit around its center.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Yep! Yay!

They errata'd it... [EDIT] Seredain goes on to try and explain something which shows only that he's got the rules for post-combat reforming totally wrong. Doh.


Here's the text:

Page 55 – Reforming From Victory
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to “A
combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save
for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not
have to stay in the same place.”

EDIT: Page 55 is the crucial detail and refers only to reforms made while the unit is still engaged in combat.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:21 pm 
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:O


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Great BR, I was nervous for you for about a second. So what do you gain, in terms of the campaign, from this victory? How is your standings now among the other armies in the campaign?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:24 pm 
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That's not right at all, Seredain. A combat reform is one that happens in combat. If you simply wipe out the enemy (or restrain pursuit), then you just do a normal reform. Not a combat reform. P53, for "No more foes". This tells you to look at P57. Then you look at P57, which tells you to look at P14. Combat reforms (P55) aren't included in this.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Noooo! Arrrrrgh! The dangers of reading erratas in isolation and focussing hungrily on the word 'victory'! If I recall I think OnceBitten's (excellent) youtube battle reports also contain manoeuvres that he calls 'combat reforms' and, during which, moves like this take place.

Thanks Stormie- I've gone through the steps and you're absolutely right- that clears everything up nicely. Ugh, I hate getting rules wrong. It's like that time I ran around with the Banner of the World Dragon thinking I'd be completely immune to the Engine of the Gods (oh, those were sweet, sweet times). Leaves a bad taste when you find out you've basically cheated. At least, in this instance, the bloodletters and plaguebearers got to do the same thing. That's some consolation.

Now, before any more innocent gamers become deceived I'd better get on deleting some of the crap I've just put up! Go go go!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Well played again sir!

It struck me that had those four White Lions been Swordmasters (with almost double the number of attacks) things might have been different there. Just food for thought now I'm looking at a 10-strong unit of elites. It's a tricky one because Lions are more likely to make it to combat in numbers but against some opponents SM's will kill more and hence reduce attacks back. Also the lack of a Herald on those Bloodletters seemed to cost your opponent.

I think Banner of Sorcery would have helped you here.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:19 am 
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Draven wrote:
Great BR, I was nervous for you for about a second. So what do you gain, in terms of the campaign, from this victory? How is your standings now among the other armies in the campaign?

Cheers Draven. I was nervous myself until I managed to get rid of the flamers. Horrible, horrible units. I won't deal with the campaign stats until I've done the report for my next game- which I've just played. As a result of the game, though, I took a walled city from my opponent. As things stood after the battle, every territory I owned had either a mine or a city on it. My elves like building. :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Well played again sir!

It struck me that had those four White Lions been Swordmasters (with almost double the number of attacks) things might have been different there. Just food for thought now I'm looking at a 10-strong unit of elites. It's a tricky one because Lions are more likely to make it to combat in numbers but against some opponents SM's will kill more and hence reduce attacks back. Also the lack of a Herald on those Bloodletters seemed to cost your opponent.

I think Banner of Sorcery would have helped you here.

Thanks SA! Although the end-result swung heavily my way (it was a massacre even without considering the scenario), it was a touch-and-go game for a while. I hated being so powerless to stop the flamers running around for so long (my dragon princes panicking so early really hobbled me there) and, worse, I hated having nothing to stop the fiends from causing trouble. I was sensible in dedicating the chariot to the main charge I think, but I did wish I'd had another repeater hovering around back there to take out a fiend before the pair of them had a chance to rip into anything valuable (they probably would've gone for the repeater, in that instance, and kept out of the game until I could regrow my lions).

Against daemons, swordmasters are pretty much always superior: the daemons have high weapon skill, low toughness and no armour and so do not make the best targets for lions. Lions have the save, though (that was very useful against the flamers), and the stubborn special rule is an excellent safety net. Str 6, meanwhile, makes a big difference against certain levels of armour (against enemies with a 4+ save, it feels good that they don't get a save at all). All-comers, they make a fine utility unit.

Banner of Sorcery would've helped immensely. At no point during the game did I feel that I had magical dominance and, when I was unable to regrow my swords on Turn 4, I really thought it was going to cost me (in the end the swords didn't win me the game- but they were still too useful to lose!). I missed having the archers defending my backline as well. With only one eagle, I had to use the green archers to roadblock the 2nd bloodletter horde. I could've used a 2nd eagle for that and that would've freed the archers up to defend me from the fiends. Less anti-harassment (lost repeater) plus 0 units to compensate (no extra eagle), made me, in this game, uncomfortably vulnerable where I felt compelled to dedicate the chariot to attack. My ethos of 'overlapping capabilities' broke down here, and I think an extra eagle would've filled the gap as much by liberating the archers from suicide missions as by harassing units directly.

I think you know where this is going... List Edit! I'll let the report settle for a bit before we get into that, but then we'll get on and see what the new all-comers list (2500 points) can do against a 2685 point Lizardmen army running a Slann and two Stegadons... Ick.

Natio wrote:
This campaign doesn't sound very well rounded and fair if a single person can be hit by Fool's gold so many times in a row. Seems like a Mario Kart-esk system where some players get screwed by playing better.

And yes, Natio, I get Fool's Gold again, for the 5th turn in a row...

A final word on the scenario. Another point I've listed in the section on my list's vulnerabilities (along with not having the Banner of Sorcery), is that my army doesn't have many standards. This put me under pressure this game- and even then I was pretty lucky in that I bought a standard bearer for the swordmasters with points which, in the all-comers list, are usually spent on trinkets. Any list edit would be well advised to add on a couple of flags, I think. If one of them happened to be the Banner of Sorcery, so much the better!

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