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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Well played Sir
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Ye gads, Knights and guns, that sounds dangerous.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:00 pm 
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eeeeuw...2 canons, 3 mortars, 60 handgunners = not fun.

and looking at his list i think you will have regretted droping the rbt?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:02 pm 
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I'd normally refrain to comment unless I have something very constructive to say but...

This is some CHEESE!! 5 Artillery, 60 handguns, 5 characters and the rest Knights? Can it get any cheesier? You are a brave warrior for facing these sort of tailored rubbish (e.g. castling Vamp with Manfred) with the same list.

I hope you seriously smashed that Empire list into a slimy pulp. Can't wait to read the report!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:00 pm 
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flanker wrote:
Can it get any cheesier?...

...I hope you seriously smashed that Empire list into a slimy pulp. Can't wait to read the report!

Keep your fingers crossed, then... At least there's no Steam Tank.

Tiralya wrote:
Ye gads, Knights and guns, that sounds dangerous.

BorkBork wrote:
eeeeuw...2 canons, 3 mortars, 60 handgunners = not fun.

and looking at his list i think you will have regretted droping the rbt?

Not fun at all!

I hoped the metal mage would make up for the loss of the repeaters, along with the eagle for cannon-eating and the Robe to allow Lecalion to regen the spears on top of his usual casts. Since I aimed to close in ASAP all along the line, I figured I wouldn't get that much shooting in against the important targets. Instead of shooting I'd be looking to a slightly beefed magic phase to turn the tide. Apart from taking the first opportunity to 6-dice Searing Doom, my policy would simply be:

Keep healing!.. Medic!... MEDIC!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Actually, thats not tthat great an empire list. No engineers or solid combat blocks? Without halberd hordes you should be able to break his handgunner lines (t3 no armour saves). Sure the knights are nasty, but they're asl and dont have priests for the hatred re-rolls, so kurt aside, you'll outclass him in cc.

Not an easy game for helves but winnable!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Csjarrat wrote:
Actually, thats not tthat great an empire list. No engineers or solid combat blocks? Without halberd hordes you should be able to break his handgunner lines (t3 no armour saves). Sure the knights are nasty, but they're asl and dont have priests for the hatred re-rolls, so kurt aside, you'll outclass him in cc.

That's exactly what I figured. I just had to get through the guns...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Battle Report - 2506 High Elves vs 2750 Empire

Spells

For his shadow Wizard Lord, my opponent rolled Miasma, Pendulum, Pit of Shades, Mindrazor. On the Lvl 2 he got Spirit Leech and Doom and Darkness.

Edit: The Wizard Lord actually had a Destroy Scroll (or whatever the equivalent is), not the Rod of Power.

I didn't even roll for metal magic- just chose Searing Doom on my level 1, Acheron. Lecalion did very nicely: he rolled Throne, Stone, Regrowth and Dwellers, but swapped Dwellers out for Earth Blood (there were no massive infantry units and I wanted the healing on the spears).

The Board

In placing terrain, I'd again been a little more ruthless than usual by deploying both woods almost directly infront of the only hill we'd managed to roll. If my opponent wanted the hill, he'd have to make do with a drastically reduced arc of fire. He won the roll to choose sides and took the other side, which had a burning barricade, an earthblood mere (the rocky patch of terrain) and a building.

The scenario we rolled was Dawn Attack: my opponent got to set up first and, in the end, I wasn't able to roll the required 6 to steal the first turn.

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Deployment

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My opponent wanted his handgunners deployed in the centre, but he came aground of the scenario and two of the three units had to be deployed on his left flank. All the knights got to deploy centrally, however, so my opponent ended up with an okayish setup where he had a solid fighting core flanked by guns. To get the best of the flanking gunners, however, he'd have to move them up sharpish to get into a good firing position, and hope that I wanted to play Charge of the Light Brigade.

Since my list didn't much rely on rigid deployment, I felt more comfortable with the scenario. In the end, a couple of units were a little out of it- the white lions and the green archers out on my right flank, but the rest of my army managed to build a pretty good formation and, with it, a pretty good plan. Ahead of Seredain's knights lay the Wizard Lord's handgunners, a mortar and a unit of 5 knights (disguised as Kislev horse- every empire cavalry trooper wields a great weapon regardless of appearances). Riding alongside were the dragon princes and the chariot, with both eagles to the left ready to leap upon the Empire guns. I would use this strike force to hammer this soft part of the empire army and annihilate the greater part of its magic phase by killing the Wizard Lord. To the right of my strike force, my infantry- spears, swordmasters and white lions- would occupy the big knight blocks to prevent them flanking my fast attack until it was ready to deal with them. Magical assistance would be needed here; either defensive or destructive. With his troops fast assembling in the morning light and the plan hastily passed to his commanders, the High Elf prince gestured and sounded the advance.

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Empire Left Flank

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Empire Centre(two cannons are deployed to the left of the picture on the Empire right flank)

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High Elf Right Flank

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High Elf Centre and Left


Empire Turn 1

Before the elf army could surge into the field the Empire guns opened up. The human army had held its position with every unit, pausing only to befuddle the spearelves with Miasma and scare the swordmasters with Doom and Darkness (which I failed to dispel), before the cannons let rip. The humans were clearly blinking in the morning sun, however, since their artillery did not perform well. One cannon overshot its target (the silver helms) and the other misfired (though not fatally). The mortars faired little better: one misfired (aha!) and had to have its fuse reset; one merely pinged the swordmasters with its shot, killing one (a second elf actually managed to roll a 6 to save), while the third, having managed to hit 2 silver helms with a scattering shot, saw the well-armoured cataphracts shrug off the fire and come on in good order. A good start for the elves.

High Elves Turn 1

The knights, eagles and chariot came on at a quick pace, with the DPs riding up to the wall ahead of them to take cover from the next round of cannon fire (they had to hop over the wall anyway- I may as well use it). The eagles, partly to make themselves more attractive targets, went further forward to provide sure-fire charges against the cannons next turn. The infantry, to the right, came on quickly too but naturally (since they were slower), hung back from the line of advance drawn by the cavalry. The white lions wheeled left and moved into the nearby (and ordinary) wood, to both provide assistance to the swordmasters and to take cover from all the handgunners. To their left marched Acheron, who came far into the wood to bring himself within range of Kurt Helborg's knights...

I drew 7 power dice from the winds of magic (6 + 1 for Acheron's jewel), against my opponent's 3 dispel dice, and immediately threw 6 of them at a 20+ Searing Doom aimed against the Empire general's knights. The spell went off irresistibly and absolutely blasted them apart: eight knights exploded in a matter of seconds. Ahahaha! Acheron lost a wizard level and gained a massive headache, but I figured it was worth it. With my single remaining dice, Lecalion casually dispelled Doom and Darkness.

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BOOM!

Arrows filled the air alongside all the cheers and fell hard among their targets. The blue archers took out 3 handgunners (fine), but it was the green archers on the right flank who really excelled themselves. In only one volley they killed the nearest mortar outright. Haha! Even better, the nearby handgunner unit totally bricked it and fled off the table, carrying their level 2 wizard with them. Leadership 7 blows, eh?

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See that handgunner unit next to the mortar-shaped gap? They're about to run away. Well done, boys.

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End of Turn 1

Empire Turn 2

The remaining empire knights largely advanced toward my infantry centre, with the remaining large unit coming to with 11" of my white lions and 12" of the swordmasters. Even this advance saw another small disaster when the white wolves tried to hop over the burning barricade and lost three of their number! The hand gunners all stood their ground and readied their firearms. On the Empire right flank, the unit of 5 knights tried to protect their wizard lord and his handgunner companions by advancing infront of them. A mistake from my opponent, here: he may have prevented my silver helms from charging straight into the WL handgunners, but he'd angled the knights in such a way that, if I managed to kill them all, I could simply overrun into the handgunners instead. I intended to do just that.

Magic. A decent chunk of dice saw my opponent try and throw Miasma on the silver helms (dispelled- I presumed he was looking to follow up with the pit or the pendulum) and then successfully throw Mindrazor up on the WL handgunners. At least now they could fight if they had to.

Shooting. One cannon did well and killed four swordmasters, the other sucked and hit, but failed to wound, the chariot. Arf. The two remaining mortars also managed wildly differing outcomes: the first simply exploded (nice), but the second blasted a hole in the spearelf column, killing nine of them. Lecalion, still practicing how to cast Earth Blood, looked shifty. Meanwhile, a panicked volley from the WL handgunners couldn't get past the silver helms' armour with the one or two successful hits they made.

High Elves Turn 2

The two eagles both charged a cannon each and the dragon princes, chariot and silver helms thundered into the nearby knights- the princes vaulting effortlessly over the stone wall before them. Except for one, who fell off his horse. Rather than risk a successful redirect into his handgunners, my opponent chose to hold with his cavalry and hope for the best. In the centre of the field, I figured I'd try and seize the initiative by charging both the white lions and the swordmasters out at the big knight block. Both made it in- huzzah! In other movement, Lecalion exited the spears rather than face Kurt's magical sword- hopefully a mortar would try and shoot him.

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Charge!

Magic. I didn't get many dice- 3 rolled +1 to my opponent's 2 dispel dice. First I went for Throne of Vines on 2 dice, only for my opponent to successfully wipe it from Lecalion's mind with his destroy scroll. No matter- Flesh to Stone went up on the white lions and made them a bit harder to kill.

Shooting. Not much doing: the green archers pinged two or three handgunners on my right flank while the blue archers, distracted by all the action taking place in front of them, didn't wound a thing.

Combat! Unsurprisingly, Seredain, Caradath and their companions demolished their enemy and overran toward the waiting, now startled, handgunners. The princes and chariot made it in but the silver helms, annoyingly, were short by only 1". In the centre, the swordmasters and white lions truly showed their quality and absolutely went to town on the captain's knight block, cutting down seven of them. 3 swordmasters and 1 white lion were killed in reply- not enough- but the knights managed to hold on a 2nd break test roll of 3. Damn.

Empire Turn 3

Things were beginning to unravel pretty quickly for Kurt Helborg. The elves had surged forward, more or less unharmed, and were now cutting his army to pieces. Unfortunately, since both the swordmasters and silver helms were both out of his charge arc (tee hee), he had little choice but to charge the spearelves. They held and prepared to do their steadfast work. The two remaining white wolf knights, seeing their brothers in urgent need of assistance, charged the white lions.

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The badly damaged Empire units launch their counter-attack.

In the magic phase, my opponent got miasma up on the spearelves (for only 1 point of effect- fine), but couldn't get Mindrazor up on the handguns again because I scrolled it.

In the shooting phase, the flanking handgunners put a few kills on the green archers, who passed their panic check. The last mortar, meanwhile, took the bait and aimed a shot at Lecalion, who looked up to the sky and spread his arms wide, only for the shot to land some inches away. His robe remained incognito.

Combat saw the chariot and one dragon prince in base contact put a few kills on the handgunners, though none (annoyingly) on the Wizard Lord, who made all the ward saves he was required to take. Bastard. The handgunners held on their steadfast leadership and prepared to fight on, even with the elven lord and his bodyguard bearing down on them... To my right, the elites continued their fine work: killing all the remaining knights (blue and red variety), and leaving only the captain left. He fled and, while their brother lions reformed to face the flank of Helborg's knights, the fleet-footed swordmasters chased him down and cut off his head. While all this was going on, the spearelves were doing their bit and struggling to hold Kurt at bay. They lost several of their number to the Empire characters, but there was no question of their letting the humans escape and they firmly held their ground.

High Elves Turn 3

Time to close the noose. The white lions charged Kurt Helborg in the flank and the silver helms finally thundered into the handgunners. The swordmasters hurried to the nearby mortar to put it out of action before the smelly weapon blew itself up and did them some harm.

Magic and shooting were both duds- I got very little power and managed to do nothing with it, then I managed to shoot not very much with the green archers. No biggie.

Combat; and my cavalry wing brutally demolished the handgunners- killing them to a man. The princes and chariot ran over the Wizard Lord, while Seredain and his companions reformed to face the combat raging in the centre...
The spears skewered a knight but were again subjected to a serious level of pain, even as the white lions tried to unhorse the furious Empire general. One landed a good blow and took a wound, but Kurt made 2 successful saves to preserve his mortal life for the time being. The combat raged on. The swordmasters effortlessly dispatched the mortar crew and started wiping their blades clean- their work seemed done for one day.

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I admit, things are looking pretty good.

Empire Turn 4

The humans could find nothing to do other than struggle on. The last unit of handgunners shot a couple more archers. In combat, the spearelves brought down their last knight- to much rejoicing- and the white lions, finally getting their act together, cleaved the head off Kurt Helborg's horse then dragged him to the ground and, cleanly, severed his head and limbs.

High Elves Turn 4

Seredain and his knights rode up to last remaining Empire horseman- a captain desperately clinging on to his shattered army's banner. As they closed, Lecalion got to work casting regrowth on the depleted swordmaster unit.

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The elf lord issued his challenge, as was the brave man's due, then cut him down. The army reformed to face their last target- the unit of handgunners cowering in the far corner of the field.

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The elf commander makes a mental note to re-glue Seredain to his horse.

The remainder of the battle can be best described in photographs:

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A colossal volley from the Empire gunners is not enough to save them.

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The enemy army is tabled, for the loss of no elf units.
Victory to the High Elves!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:51 pm 
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=D> =D> =D>
I dont usually post (more of a long time lurker) but what a game adn what a result!

Well done my prince, well done


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Good grief! You weren't messing around were you?

:)

A philosophical aside...

No I don't recall much of Kant either. My 'Kant and the Ethics of Self-realisation' unit went by in an uncomprehending haze! Not much of an Ethics guy myself though I enjoyed Kierkegaarde.

So your opponent's shooting equalled Fail. He did seem to put his knights where you wanted them but I guess he had to try something to protect his guns. You had all the answers this game.

The big question:

Will you change the all-comers list?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:16 am 
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holy cr...

almost feeling sorry for the guy...not!!!. :twisted:

well played sir! especially since the terrain was not really in your favour either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:41 am 
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Well, for adding a extra Mage the Magic was pretty weak for the most part of the battle but boy was that 1st turn Searing Doom golden. Everything went right this battle, I guess the dice gods paid you back in full from last battle. Good to see the High Elves flex there muscles. Being at a disadvantage point wise and facing a rather large gun line, you really massacred them. Great Job !!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:35 am 
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Well played Sir
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That last stand and shoot was deadly, but not good enough. The was a great battle to read.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:03 am 
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good work! i guess next time you play him there'll be a walter, stank and 200 halberds on the board :-)

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an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Hi Seredain!

Thanks for another battle report! It was an interesting build for Empire Army. A pity it was a one-sided battle as after reading army lists I thought it would be quite a challenge for your force. Then it looked like a very easy win for you :)

I was surprised you decided to tailor the army list to help you against particular opponent. Although the whole idea is still there and changes are not that visible, I simply got used to your all-comers army. After reading the report I am not sure it really mattered that made these changes with an obvious exception of a Metal Mage. Any particular reason to do so? And do you think it helped you to win significantly or maybe the game went in a way that you would win with your previous list?

I don't know how you do it but somehow Empire gulines cannot hit you :) You can destroy their war machines with 10 archers and even panic nearby troops :) That was nice twist of luck. His shooting, however, was quite poor in terms of efficiency. I really wonder how did it happen as he had plenty of tools to kill many of your troops. I think he would do better if he deployed his cavalry on one flank and artillery on the other. This would help him to move cavalry forward and put some pressure on your units while his artillery could still shoot at your regiments. Instead he seemed to help you to get behind the lines sooner by positioning some of his units so you could charge them and overrun into other regiments behind them. I wonder why he held with a small cavalry unit against such a combo charge instead of fleeing. Any thought? Maybe you even asked him about his plan and why it didn't work from his point of view?

Congratulations on a spectacular win anyway and I am looking for more battle reports :)

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Any particular reason to do so?


I believe it was the address the possibility of a Steam Tank, based on a suggestion far earlier in the thread.

Btw, hello Seredain! Its my first post here after much lurking. As someone returning after a long hiatus since 5th edition, I really appreciate your ideas, batreps and discussion here. Hoping to test out your list where I play.

Salute!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Hi Seredain!
Instead he seemed to help you to get behind the lines sooner by positioning some of his units so you could charge them and overrun into other regiments behind them. I wonder why he held with a small cavalry unit against such a combo charge instead of fleeing. Any thought? Maybe you even asked him about his plan and why it didn't work from his point of view?
Cheers!


seems he was hoping to pummel the squishy elves under an artillery barrage and then mop up the remnants with knightly orders.
apparently he wasnt expecting much to reach his lines, if he did then he'd have brought some state troop blocks.
that said, the ommision of any engineers is a big error, if you go gunline then you need at least one!

artillery is about as reliable as magic, and it seems he's based his entire strategy around it, hence why he failed.
bad luck on his part didnt help him either though.

what was his reasoning behind taking kurt helborg? he's really expensive and would have been much better off with an arch lector for the hatred re-rolls and magic defence

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Hello everybody- thanks for all the comments! Like most of you, it really warmed my elven cockles to cut up this list as well as I did: it's impossible to play High Elves and not feel a warm glow of pleasure when you see guns missing and blowing up like that!

Battle Review - High Elves vs Empire

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I was surprised you decided to tailor the army list to help you against particular opponent. Although the whole idea is still there and changes are not that visible, I simply got used to your all-comers army. After reading the report I am not sure it really mattered that made these changes with an obvious exception of a Metal Mage. Any particular reason to do so? And do you think it helped you to win significantly or maybe the game went in a way that you would win with your previous list?

Draven wrote:
Well, for adding a extra Mage the Magic was pretty weak for the most part of the battle but boy was that 1st turn Searing Doom golden.

The Metal mage was golden (arf). My magic didn't do a lot for most of the game but that 1st cast was a beast. In truth, I don't think it won me the game (the Dawn Attack deployment made it more likely and the Empire's poor shooting made it official), but that cast did show the usefullness of the metal mage. I took him over the repeaters for a few reasons:

1) Since I figured I'd have to advance very quickly, I figured my repeaters wouldn't have many important targets on after Turn 1. A metal mage, on the other hand, can move around and pick his target.

2) I figured the Empire would be fielding knights and/or (as ether_drake suggested) a steam tank. Searing Doom eats these and, in so doing, makes up for the loss of long-range firepower provided by the repeaters (against the tank, almost infinitely so). During this battle, the repeaters probably would have done fine against the knights- I was mostly concerned with the Stank.

3) The metal mage was only 115 points: this left me with plenty of points to put towards picking up other stuff; namely the extra eagle for machine-hunting and the Robe on the archmage (allowing him to get more involved and give the spears, with their Banner of Discipline, Ld10).

As for tailoring, the campaign format sort of lends itself to it. You typically get extra gold to spend and this means you end up tweaking the list for every battle. Normally I simply add points on to the fixed list but, since I was 250 points behind this battle, I didn't overly mind tailoring slightly. As you say, my list pretty much played as it usually does. Instead of repeaters firing at knights I had a metal mage going nuts. The extra eagle was nice, but probably the biggest difference was in the way the archmage played: it was nice to have to freedom to wander him around by himself without having to worry about dragging an archer unit about. Still, this made no difference: my blue archers didn't have a lot to shoot at and would've been fine going forward to keep Lecalion in range.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I think he would do better if he deployed his cavalry on one flank and artillery on the other. This would help him to move cavalry forward and put some pressure on your units while his artillery could still shoot at your regiments.

Now, the deployment wasn't really his fault- the scenario was Dawn Attack and in the end he had to place those 40 gunners on his left flank. I've noticed this about armies which rely on inflexible deployment (like gunlines or the Mannfred Bunker); they don't cope very well if their deployment ends up out of wack, or if a scenario forces them to come forward into the field. As for my list, it relies on combinations over and above the influence of a single unit, while my Helm Hammer, although the most powerful unit, is also fast enough to get into the game in the event that it has to start somewhere random. Infantry deathstars and large missile units can't react to circumstances as quickly.

To make the best of a bad situation, in the Empire's shoes I would've marched those 40 handgunners toward the centre during the first turn, to get some good close-range fire on the High Elven elites during Turn 2. One of them ran off the board (ouch), but the other should've been up against the barricade by the end of Turn 1.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Instead ...he seemed to help you to get behind the lines sooner by positioning some of his units so you could charge them and overrun into other regiments behind them. I wonder why he held with a small cavalry unit against such a combo charge instead of fleeing. Any thought?

This was a big mistake. He was thinking that, if the knights fled, I'd simply be redirect my big charge straight into the wizard lord's handgunners. He had a point here, but he still didn't choose the right response to this threat:

1) Firstly, there were no counter-charges on from his big knight blocks. During Turn 1, the Empire didn't move a single unit. Since it was obvious where my cavalry was going once I'd deployed them to fail to move to counter them in anyway with his big units was a mistake. With the guns missing and searing doom going off, things probably wouldn't have turned out any different, mind. Further, since I had my elites moving to cover the centre ground, the big knight on the far side couldn't have moved over without exposing its flank. Kurt could've been more proactive, though.

2)If you're going to block a charge of that size off with a small unit, that unit is obviously going to die so you must remember to angle it so as to force some inconvenient overruns or combat reforms. Those 5 knights were angled in such a way that I could overrun straight into the gunners. It may have been that, if they'd angled to draw the misdirect, they may have opened a gap for my helms to ride straight through but at least, in those circumstances, I might have failed the charge with the helms and he would've held up the DPs and chariot. As things turned out, the 5 knights died and managed to serve no useful purpose.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Maybe you even asked him about his plan and why it didn't work from his point of view?
Csjarrat wrote:
seems he was hoping to pummel the squishy elves under an artillery barrage and then mop up the remnants with knightly orders.
apparently he wasnt expecting much to reach his lines, if he did then he'd have brought some state troop blocks.
that said, the ommision of any engineers is a big error, if you go gunline then you need at least one!

artillery is about as reliable as magic, and it seems he's based his entire strategy around it, hence why he failed.
bad luck on his part didnt help him either though.

Csjarrat answers things perfectly: my opponent relied way to much on his shooting. Since his deployment was messed up and his guns failed, having only a one-dimensional strategy left him hanging a bit. Top be fair to him, he did suffer from some horrendous luck.

Csjarrat wrote:
what was his reasoning behind taking kurt helborg? he's really expensive and would have been much better off with an arch lector for the hatred re-rolls and magic defence

Agreed. Not sure what the points of Kurt was. Maybe he was there to kill my characters or maybe he was just meant to be a good knight-killer? Certainly there's always a temptation, when you have extra points to spend, to blow them on glamourous things without thinking much about how well they synergise with the rest of your list. My last vampire opponent spent his points well by including Mannfred- it made his list much better at something it was already designed to do.

SpellArcher wrote:
The big question:

Will you change the all-comers list?

I am sorely tempted (as I was some pages back), by the Level 1 Metal Mage. He fills a real gap in capability against things like the stank and is equally awesome against Stegadons, dual hydras and, as we've seen, heavy knights. He'd be able to burn heavy stuff better than my shooting phase currently can, while the remaining repeater would still be able to hurt light units (though, as previously discussed, I'd have to work it alongside an archer unit to get the best out of it). The trickier thing is, I'd have to get a few extra points from somewhere to find the extra arcane choice, which I'd inevitably want to take. Vaul's Unmaking is the best possible way to prep enemy lords for my prince, and it seriously hurts those builds which rely on the 'buzzword' items- like Regen Vamps or ASF/Pendant Dark Elves. So, I got my eye on the Ring of Corin... I'll have a good think about it. A possible option is currently:

Lose- 1 Repeater and 2 white lions (they tend to fight heavily armoured targets and targets vulnerable to flaming attacks, so the gained unit- the metal mage- directly makes up for their loss of capability).

Gain- 1 Metal Mage- Ring of Corin; Talisman of Protection on the Archmage.

Csjarrat wrote:
good work! i guess next time you play him there'll be a walter, stank and 200 halberds on the board :-)

They can bring it! :)

Thanks again for the feedback, chaps- some interesting points raised.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:41 pm 
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I'm looking forward to seeing the Ring of Corin in action. It has the capacity to unravel some entire army builds, and may be worth it for the psychological effect alone when a player loses that lynchpin item.

It'd be especially satisfying on Dark Elves who use that unkillable Dreadlord tactic. :twisted:

This would give your magic phase a nerfing quality where previously it had largely been a buff.

Question: Why Seed of Rebirth? Was it just because you had 10 pts to spare and figured, 'hey, why not opt for a 1 in 6 regen'?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:47 pm 
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ether_drake wrote:
Question: Why Seed of Rebirth? Was it just because you had 10 pts to spare and figured, 'hey, why not opt for a 1 in 6 regen'?


+1

Wouldn't 6+ Ward for same point cost be better?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:26 pm 
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If I recall correctly, I think the 6+ ward is 15 points while the Seed is 10. Edit: HE book taslisman is 10 points - see post below. At the finer end of things, 5 points is a big enough difference (to find the 5 extra points, I'd have to lose something else). As for the nature of regen itself, I should be able to avoid flaming shooting attacks (if I leave the archmage standing alone infront of a brettonian archer unit, I deserve to lose him), while flaming magical attacks are relatively rare (Lore of Metal obviously useless and the archmage can take cover from magic missiles as per ordinary missiles). Lore of Death spells, however, are worth remembering. In my game against Vamps, the archmage died to a direct damage spell which inflicted precisely 3 wounds: a 6+ regen save for 10 points would have been useful then and, with the ability to add wounds on with Earthblood, the ability to roll a 6+ save becomes correspondingly more useful (more useful than the 15 point one-off 4+ ward save and cheaper than the 15 point 6+ ward save item). As a piece of cheap insurance for an expensive mage, the Seed of Rebirth is, since I have the points spare, worth a look. And it fits a Life mage's theme rather nicely. :)

I'm also tempted by Gem of Courage on one of the elites (probably the lions), but I think the Seed tips it... I'll have a muse.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
If I recall correctly, I think the 6+ ward is 15 points while the Seed is 10.

Talisman of Protection is 10 points in the High Elf book, so they are the same cost. In light of that the ward is probably the better choice.

Great report by the way. Sounded like one of those games that just feels good all the way through. Getting those Sword Masters and White Lions both in on that initial charge must have felt great after the previous charging woes!

Looking forward to the large battle reports that you mentioned as well!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
Talisman of Protection is 10 points in the High Elf book, so they are the same cost. In light of that the ward is probably the better choice.

Hot dog! Thanks BT- and with apologies to Drake and Draven- that's a good shout. Edited.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:37 pm 
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When I took the Metal Mage to a tourney he was offensively useless in all 6 games. Maybe that was bad luck, I don't know. Obviously, if you're fighting anything with armour he's great, though he eats a lot of power dice. Ring of Corin is a good shout, should be useful against most enemy. Personally I'd keep the RBT but I'm not in your shoes.

This thread is over 500 posts, it's getting ridiculous!

:)

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Hi Seredain,

Great report as always! Always a good time reading your reports. I like the metal mage idea. I have been tempted in using a LV 2 metal mage in my eagle prince army and I am glad to see it actually works. While it is situational, it is situational in the EXACT SITUATIONS that HE struggle really (weakening good AS enemies at range). I have been running high simply because the synergy of that with shadow is pretty good (5+ ward sig is nothing to scoff at in general, and withering + flames of the phoenix is DEADLY against horde armies...). The 6th metal spell is particularly attractive, as it has the same chance of killing chosen and a lower casting value... Glad to see metal in use. I feel it is a lore that is too often overlooked.

I like the Ring of Corin idea too. Because 1 and 2 auto fail for dispelling, you could theoretically throw one dice at it for a 50% chance of casting and force your opponent to roll 2 to ensure it gets dispelled (or else he loses a big item). Good way to drain dispel dice for a big phase (or alternatively, you could throw a lot of dice at it to take out that key magic item the enemy has. We all know that all armies have at least one of those running around...). I look forward to seeing how it works for you. I take the crystal as a safety as it really helps (especially in conjunction with drain magic) against magic-spam armies. That said, ring of corin can do wonders and I would be lying if I say I haven't been tempted.

I don't know about you but I was absolutely drooling when I saw his list! No STanks (though that could have been in anticipation of a metal mage; the empire players I know never take STanks when its a catered list game), no infantry hordes, and a bunch of move-or-fire short range shots?? The only scary thing about it is his special character, and even he can only do so much when hit by a bunch of lions. The warmachines are good, but pale in comparison to what dwarves can do. Realize, even optimal placement of a cannon shot (7.5 inches I think) still has a good chance of missing singly-ranked cavalry (misses on any misfire first, any 10 first, or 2, 4, 6 + misfire, or 2, 2; 2, 4; or 4, 2 roll, and other combinations also only hit one even if doubly ranked). So it didn't surprise me that his shooting wasn't as effective as it could be. Without the dwarven runes of accuracy, empire cannons and mortars miss almost as often as BS shot warmachines do (the only difference is that cannons and mortars/stonethrowers hurt more when they do hit). Also, his list had no anvils to his cavalry hammers, so the only way he could have won was through straight up out-maneuvering you, which is difficult without any re-directors and with slower cavalry. You played to your advantages really well, I think, and really taught the cowardly humans a lesson! Moral of the story: hammer and powder does not work as well as hammer and anvil.

PS: Still an admirer of this thread, and I am glad you are back and had a good trip (although you are now broke. I know the feeling though :D). Hope to watch this list live on UB.com sometime! (Whats your username for that site?).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:33 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
When I took the Metal Mage to a tourney he was offensively useless in all 6 games. Maybe that was bad luck, I don't know. Obviously, if you're fighting anything with armour he's great, though he eats a lot of power dice. Ring of Corin is a good shout, should be useful against most enemy. Personally I'd keep the RBT but I'm not in your shoes.

This thread is over 500 posts, it's getting ridiculous!

:)

Huzzah! :)

jwg20 wrote:
I like the metal mage idea. I have been tempted in using a LV 2 metal mage in my eagle prince army and I am glad to see it actually works. While it is situational, it is situational in the EXACT SITUATIONS that HE struggle really (weakening good AS enemies at range).

You both nicely describe the pro's and cons of the metal mage. In truth, I'm equally tempted by the High mage. Shield of Saphery is useful against every opponent (and synergises so well with Life lore), there's Drain Magic to boost my defence against scary magic-heavy lists and, another important consideration, both spells are cheap enough for a low level mage to cast easily and without seriously damaging the casting prospects of an archmage who doesn't have the Banner of Sorcery to draw on.

And yet the Lore of Metal is so useful against enemies that my other troops can struggle with (excepting perhaps the prince himself). In this sense, it fills a tactical role like many other units (repeaters are good against some enemy units, not others, etc). If I don't need to cast it, I can dedicate the power dice to my archmage as I do now (though there's no denying the excellence of having Shield there to back up your Flesh to Stone cast) and, latterly, to the ring.

jwg20 wrote:
I like the Ring of Corin idea too. Because 1 and 2 auto fail for dispelling, you could theoretically throw one dice at it for a 50% chance of casting and force your opponent to roll 2 to ensure it gets dispelled (or else he loses a big item). Good way to drain dispel dice for a big phase (or alternatively, you could throw a lot of dice at it to take out that key magic item the enemy has.

It's a badass item precisely because so many killer builds hinge around an item or two. Take it out and you're set, especially if you're a prince looking to cut that Chaos lord's head off, or a massed line of elite infantry looking to chop into those regenerating grave guard. Would I prefer a seer-mage with Vaul's unmaking? Not in this list. The ring is one use only (bad), but it has benefits:

1) It's cheap to cast. Two power dice and an item's dead (I wouldn't chance using just one if I had the choice- if the item's important enough to kill, kill it!).

2) Unlike Vaul's Unmaking which, as a spell, is declared to your opponent at the start of the game, your opponent doesn't know that you're carrying the ring. You can conceal your item-killer until you need it and, unless your opponent is a regular one, he won't have planned for it. If he is a regular one, then he has a problem when he's got three dispel dice left and you've just shoved toughness up on your sweet combat unit...

jwg20 wrote:
Realize, even optimal placement of a cannon shot (7.5 inches I think) still has a good chance of missing singly-ranked cavalry (misses on any misfire first, any 10 first, or 2, 4, 6 + misfire, or 2, 2; 2, 4; or 4, 2 roll, and other combinations also only hit one even if doubly ranked). So it didn't surprise me that his shooting wasn't as effective as it could be. Without the dwarven runes of accuracy, empire cannons and mortars miss almost as often as BS shot warmachines do (the only difference is that cannons and mortars/stonethrowers hurt more when they do hit).

We fear Empire shooting like we fear the grave but, as you say, it ain't particularly reliable unless it has an engineer or two. Facing it is always unpleasant, mind, for what it can do. I live in constant fear of failing that 2+ LOS save on my prince. Again.

jwg20 wrote:
Hope to watch this list live on UB.com sometime! (Whats your username for that site?).

'Ello 'ello 'ello, what's all this then? Haven't been to UB.com... It's an online gaming site?

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Hmm I thought you knew about universalbattle.com? I was told you were joining by someone from this site (forget who now that I think about it). I don't put this here to solicit anyone to join, but yes it is an online gaming website. All my BRs in my thread are from UB, as my gaming group isn't quite up to 2500 pts yet, so you can get an idea what it looks like.

If you do join, and you see someone named "Gatti" on, that would be me. There are a bunch of other ulthuan.net members on that site too that you will likely run into. If you join, let me know who you are. I am sort of curious how the cavalry prince would fare against my daemons... :D.

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jwg20 wrote:
Hmm I thought you knew about universalbattle.com? I was told you were a member by someone (forget who now that I think about it). I don't put this here to solicit anyone to join. Yes it is an online gaming website. All my BRs in my thread are from UB, as my gaming group isn't quite up to 2500 pts yet, so you can get an idea what it looks like.

Nup, not on there yet- but after a little reflection I have actually heard of it before. I haven't signed on yet or anything, but maybe I'll get a game on at some point in the next month. I hope the username 'Seredain' isn't taken!

jwg20 wrote:
If you do join, and you see someone named "Gatti" on, that would be me. There are a bunch of other ulthuan.net members on that site too that you will likely run into. If you join, let me know who you are. I am sort of curious how the cavalry prince would fare against my daemons... :D.

Haha! But you know all my tricks! Anathir's sent me a link to it but, what with being away for ages, I haven't had the chance to check it out yet. Once I've got the latest battle report up, I'll take a look.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:10 am 
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There's a thread in the Tactics forum about the support caster. I think it boils down to whether you are content to cover defence and cause trouble now and then or whether you want to make magic a real strongpoint.

If you do you then have a choice between making your phase even better at what it does (High) or covering other areas (Metal). Either way I think Banner of Sorcery's a good idea. Most guys would take it with the solo Archmage though I can see the cost-efficiency angle.

Doing so is going to reduce either combat power or shooting. The Lvl1 is not too bad at 120pts, though there's something indecent about taking one when Radiant Gem's available!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:58 am 
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Hey SA,

The problem with the radiant gem (on the BSB) is that it doesn't allow you the arcane choice. It would also mean my putting a squishy fighting character into harm's way a little too often (well, every game), and also I'd be running a fighting character capable of blowing a hole in a valuable unit with a prince in it!

The Level 1 mage has the advantage of being much better designed to use the spells I aim to give him, simply because he isn't also required to do other things (ride into combat, sit alongside your general and his knights), which might compromise that role in terms of target selection, or accidentally fry important allies. And there's the crucial arcane choice, for which I need the mage.

The Banner of Sorcery is something I fretted about for a long time while thinking about this potential change. Certainly, to get the most powerful phase we have, the Banner of Sorcery is essential. And yet I can't get both the banner and the mage in without overly-compromising by combat abilities: I'd probably have to lose the chariot- and that's losing a whole load of tactical and combat possibilities, plus target saturation, none of which can be dispelled. Also, I can't bring myself to lose the last repeater: too many fast cavalry units that can screw with my advance, enemy wizards wandering around the battlefield, wolf chariots, monsters to keep afraid.

Ultimately, for this army (the focus of which is on layered, cavalry led attack, with magic acting as a support element but not the 'beef' itself), it seems I have to choose between either extra power (Sorcery) or extra spell selection (Searing Doom, 1x Vaul's). The former means I can do the usual magic better; the latter means I can do something excellent against a greater variety of opponents. Maybe the best way to look at the Metal Mage option is the way which you like to look at repeaters: against some opponents they won't do much but, against others, they'll perform brilliantly. With the metal mage, I've effectively spent 100 points on tailoring my list to my opponent each battle. If Searing Doom isn't relevant, I get to roll for another spell and I still have Corin ready, with its game-changing abilities for my Prince, while the archmage casts as normal. If it is, I have potentially two game-changing spells added to my Life tally and choosing dispels becomes very hard for my opponent. I think I like the increased options of the spell selection over the extra power. But I haven't tested it yet. And I'm facing Daemons next in the campaign and, for sure, High Magic's more useful there. And I'm still going to miss the 2nd repeater...

Arrgh... bloody list design. Takes me ages to sweat over the little details. Might get a coffee...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:14 am 
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Sereidan wrote:
High Elves Turn 2

The two eagles both charged a cannon each (...)


Not possible to loose if your opponent makes mistakes like that.

Nevertheless, nice battle report, well written and reasonably good pictures. Keep up the good work.

cheers
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