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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:13 am 
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Green Istari

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Seredain wrote:
wight kings

Eat Dwellers, S4 Wight Kings!

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:08 pm 
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hmm i see the reason for the skellies is that mannfred has the summons skelletons gift, and not the summon ghouls gift. but normally ghouls are always better, and i still think i wouldnt have taken the skellies but some support units instead (double vargulf/wraiths/coach/bloodknights)

still this list will be very hard to tear apart. i play against a very similar vampire list a lot and its like a puzzle. where can i get enough units in combat to destroy a unit in 1 turn (or almost) without being eaten the turn after. very interesting games those:P

cant wait for the report! :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:57 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
wight kings

Eat Dwellers, S4 Wight Kings!

:)

We'll see... :)

de kaasboer wrote:
cant wait for the report! :D

Voila!


Battle Report - High Elves v Vampire Counts
(Army lists presented on previous page)

Terrain

It didn't have much impact, really, so I won't go into too much detail. Basically, everything was how it looks in the photos. I will say here that the absence of any hills was a big disappointment, since I'd have no way to shoot the Helm of Commandment vampire if she started running about by herself.

Spells

I rolled Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth and Dwellers Below (excellent...)

Mannfred got all the spells from both the Death and Vampire lores (arrrgh!!)
The other two vamps got Vanhels, Raise Dead and Raise Undead Horde (I think the Helm vamp was only a Level 1).

Deployment

I'd only deployed my archers, repeaters and eagle before my opponent had put down his entire army, so I had plenty of time to set up my plan for taking the undead down. They were a tough nut to crack, mind you. In the centre of their line stood the grave guard with Mannfred and the two wight kings. There was no way I could go toe-to-toe with this unit and win without either hammering it with magic and shooting or getting around its flanks. Since the strength and toughness of the grave guard (not to mention my opponent's ability to resurrect his troops), would make it difficult for me to hammer it at range, I had to get at the flanks.

My opponent obviously didn't want me to get at the flank of this unit. To my right stood the two units of ghouls and, to my left, the skeleton unit. I didn't know Mannfred's rules at the start of this game, but the fact that the skellies were deployed in horde formation on a mostly-empty movement tray made it clear that my opponent intended to grow these guys into an unbreakable anvil. My plan, since the T3 skellies were the most vulnerable target, was to keep them under strength with arrows, bolts and Dwellers before smashing them with my silver helms, dragon princes and chariot. The elite infantry would follow up in their wake, ready to hit the GG in the front while my knights charged the flank and/or rear. Seredain would chop Mannfred's head off (Caradath accepting any unwanted challenges); game over. While all this was going on, the spearelves and (probably sacrificial) archers would hold up the ghouls. Without hills for my repeaters, I'd have to think of someway to deal with the ubiquitous Helm vamp running around the back-lines, but I figured that, since I had so many more units than my opponent, getting around the back of his army would be pretty easy.

In the end, deployment looked like this:

Vampires:
Image

High Elves:
Image

Vamps won the role to go first (probably fair), so they went ahead...

Vampires Turn 1

...and did nothing. The entire vampire army just stood still in the corner. My savvy opponent had taken one look at my army and seen what surprisingly few horde-players see: that, if he marched out into the field, I was going to surround and destroy him. Of course he may have been able to do this had he taken any support units (dogs, varghulf, coach), but he'd chosen to eschew these things in favour of using the board edges to guard his flanks for him. Irritating but effective.

The only phase happening, then, was the magic phase. My opponent got 9 power dice to my 6 dispel dice, including Mannfred's two extra free dice (a very nasty surprise!). First off he cast Wind of Undeath. I was saving all my dice for Skelly raising so I would have let it though anyway, but this was a horrible spell for me, since I had so many units. As it turned out, my opponent miscast on 3 dice (aha) and it went through. After some brilliant rolling, 8 wounds were leeched from my 10 units and 2 bases of spirit hosts popped up on the skeletons' right flank. This was fine: since I had the giant blade and the amulet of light, they couldn't stop me! The miscast put a wound on Mannfred, blew up a couple of guard and lost the undead 2 power dice. Next he tried to raise the horde, but I through all my dice down and Lecalion dispelled it easily.

High Elves Turn 1

Since it was clear that the undead army was pretty much never going to move, I was left with a difficult decision. I could stand back and force the draw (I could do more damage at range than he could- he had nothing other than Wind of Undeath that could hurt me at this distance), or I could try and win it. Since I'd have much less room for manoeuvre, this would be risky, but I figured I could put the hurt on the skeletons and still get at the GG's flank and, if I got to overrun off the board, their rear. In principle, if the skellies were overrun quickly, the grave guard were still in trouble. Since we all know that Who Dares Wins, my army sounded its clarions and marched forth.

My dragon princes galloped forward at full pace, with the silver helms following up behind, keeping pace with the chariot. My elites came up their right flank in support while my archers came forward to get in range of the skeletons. The spears, in no rush to close the ghouls down, stayed put to anchor my refused right flank. The eagle flew forward apace to put some threat on the helm vamp and tempt the odd magic missile.

High Elves Turn 1 - Movement
Image
The High Elves advance all their attacking strength against the vampires' right flank

Magic - Since Lecalion was still out of Dwellers range, I opted to simply get Throne up and put some helpful toughness on the eagle in case my opponent tried to Gaze him to death. Throne was dispelled, however, and my 3-dice Flesh to Stone caused a miscast which blew up more than half of my green archers and saw Lecalion wounded and nearly sucked into the Realm of Chaos. Yeesh.

Image
Nice one.

Shooting - My archers and repeaters all let loose at the skeletons and killed a few. No biggie.

Vampires Turn 2

Once again the undead didn't move an inch, so we went straight to the magic phase. The dice were about the same as before. My opponent raised another two bases of spirit hosts from a good Wind of Undeath, I dispelled Raised Horde again but a Thrall did manage a raise dead to put 4 skellies (or so) back onto their unit.

High Elves Turn 2

The advance continued with my princes flanking around the wood and my silver helms and chariot keeping pace with one another. The swords came forward slightly to guard against any long range Vanhels charges (unlikely but worth bearing in mind as I closed in), while the white lions moved into their flank in support. The green archers (what was left of them), came forward to put Lecalion within Dwellers range of the skeletons but the eagle, with no hope of getting to the Helm vampire now that she was being guarded by newly-raised spirit hosts, withdrew close to Lecalion to recover some wounds (he was down to 1) from Lifebloom.

Magic - I rolled pretty poorly for dice, even with the Banner of Sorcery, getting only 6. I threw them all at Dwellers against the skeletons and got it through irresistibly, tearing a great hole in their unit but, alas, blowing up more of Lecalion's companions who, against their better judgment, passed their panic test. The vampire thrall, annoyingly but unsurprisingly, survived unscathed. Lifebloom added a wound back onto the eagle, who seemed pretty grateful that I was caring for his wellbeing, for once.

Shooting - more bolts and arrows flew into the skeletons and brought them down to only a single rank. More would rise, but their ability to hold the vampires' right flank was beginning to look very shaky as all of my elites began to close in...

Image


To be continued...

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:08 pm 
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The Vampire player could so, so easily make this game a lot harder for you if he actually did something outside of magic. While you swing around to his weakest unit, he should be doing the same to get yours while using the board edge to protect his flanks. At this rate, he will lose the Skeletons for no gains. Similarly he should be trying at least one Death snipe a turn- even if it does involve moving forwards a little. The Spirit Hosts should be zooming forwards to get to your weak targets like Archers and Eagles.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:11 am 
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I love it!

Not only has he eschewed the vast majority of picks from his army book, he's added Movement to his list of 'Phases I don't do'!

:)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Ahhhh, the suspense !!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:19 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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Haha, yes, sorry everybody for the continued delay. In my continuing post-Bristol pre-London travels I have wound up in a complete wifi blackspot. Trying to find an internet-friendly pub in Cornwall is turning out to be bloody difficult...

I'm working on it!

P.S. I'm on the phone at the moment as, incredibly, I managed to find some signal. You remember that bit in the 3rd Matrix movie when they break through the clouds for just a few of seconds and manage to see the sky? It's like that. I'll be back to communicating by semaphore by the end of this afternoon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Don't believe a word of it.

You're just trying not to let on that the Vamp won without moving a model aren't you!

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Trying to find an internet-friendly pub in Cornwall is turning out to be bloody difficult...


Don't worry about us, Seredain. Enjoy yourself! If you have to try every pub between Penzance and Bude, I'm sure you'll find the trip worthwhile! :D

I've gotta say I love the west country. It's absolutely beautiful.

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Seredain wrote:

Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
Eldria wrote:

Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:15 pm 
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krysith wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Trying to find an internet-friendly pub in Cornwall is turning out to be bloody difficult...


Don't worry about us, Seredain. Enjoy yourself! If you have to try every pub between Penzance and Bude, I'm sure you'll find the trip worthwhile! :D

I've gotta say I love the west country. It's absolutely beautiful.

I admit that there are perks...

SpellArcher wrote:
Don't believe a word of it.

You're just trying not to let on that the Vamp won without moving a model aren't you!

:)

No comment!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Ahoy amigos! I return, belatedly, from my latest trip to bring you the concluding part of...

Battle Report - High Elves v Vampire Counts
Part 2

Image

Vampires Turn 3

The current plan wasn't working too well for the vamps: I was bearing down on their right flank and the unit anchoring that flank was beginning to look very fragile indeed. Movement was required! The ghouls got their act together and advanced towards the centre of my army, the grave guard wheeling to keep in line with them. The skellies rotated to cover their right side from my princes and reformed to reduce their frontage.

Image

Magic this turn was more useful for the vampires. They got 10 power dice to my 4 or 5 dispel dice (including Mannfred's +2) and made it count by raising up enough skeletons to bring the unit to an even 20. Mannfred threw Spirit Leech at Lecalion, who was forced to spend his scroll to protect himself.

High Elves Turn 3

I was feeling pretty confident now. The skeletons were at a manageable size due to all my shooting and Dwellers, and I was closing in with my army intact. All I had to do was set up the charge. The spirit hosts had to be dealt with: I couldn't shoot them, so I'd move Caradath into the princes to buff them with his amulet of light while Seredain remained with the silver helms. In any case, if the ghosts charged either unit, or moved to block a charge of mine, I'd stampede them easily.

So, movement. My cavalry and chariots moved to within easy charge reach of the skeletons and the grave guard, the eagle flying forward to hold up the grave guard and make sure they didn't spring a nasty counter-attack. The swordmasters and white lions moved to form a line covering the right flank of the cavalry, with the spears in close support and the blue archers beyond.

Magic. I'd taken a risk and kept the archmage within 24" of the grave guard. Mannfred's Death spells would therefore be a threat to him, but I figured it was worth the risk for the chance to get Dwellers off on that unit and protect the fast-approaching prince by offering another juicy target. I duly got enough power to get Throne of Vines up and then cast Dwellers irresistibly at the grave guard. Aha! A full rank of them were dragged back to the grave and one of the wight kings went with them- unfortunately the killy one rather than the regen BSB. Mannfred, as expected, was too strong for the mudmen and survived unscathed.

Shooting saw my repeaters thud another hail of missiles into the skeletons, who wilted again. The blue archers, since they couldn't see the skellies for all the advancing High Elves, aimed at the grave guard instead and may have brought down one or two.

Image

Looking good, eh? No. No it wasn't looking good. I'd forgotten to move Caradath into the princes...

Image
Shit. Nice picture though.

Vampires Turn 4

My opponent was no fool: he moved the spirit hosts right in front of the princes. He had the good grace not to cackle madly as he did so. He might have done, though. I'd wanted to get the characters and princes into the skeletons in my next turn, leaving the silver helms free to form a combo with the chariot and swordmasters against the grave guard once their flank had gone. Now, to pull that off, I was delayed by at least a turn (and we were already on Turn 4!). On the plus side, I still had the eagle holding the GG's up and Seredain was able to charge in and hold them up himself. If I got him into base contact with Mannfred, my opponent would have to challenge him out with his champion to prevent the Giant Blade going to work and that, in turn, would prevent my prince taking a killing blow to the face. In any case, I didn't want to charge the grave guard with my troops until I had their flank open.

Image
Balls.

Other movement was restricted to the undead line swinging round further to face mine. Magic, though, was far more eventful: Mannfred didn't get that many power dice, but he did get an irresistible Spirit Leech on Lecalion, killing him and taking a wound (his second from miscasts) in return. Bad!

Image
A mage once stood here, but now he is no more.

Image
The eagle makes a mental note of the number of times he has been in this position and resolves to speak to his workers' union as a matter of urgency.

High Elves Turn 4

I'd taken a risk exposing my mage for the sake of protecting the prince and taking out the regen wight BSB. Now this reasoning was beginning to look shaky: regen was still up and my prince was defenceless. I urgently needed to get him into combat, then, but I didn't want my units coming in piecemeal. So, I resolved to clear out the spirit hosts before declaring my big charge so the DPs could play their crucial part (as it was, I'd effectively lost myself the flanking element of my flank attack!). Caradath would shift left into the DPs and Seredain would shoulder the mantle of pinning the grave guard in place by threatening Mannfred and forcing the challenge from the GG champion- simultaneously buying me the time I needed to rectify my mistake with the DPs and protecting Seredain from the direct damage Death spells. He took a deep breath and charged out of the silver helms, calling Mannfred out by name... only to find that his horse tripped over a rabbit hole and brought him stumbling no distance at all, out into the open. The undead hoard howled derision.

Image
Shit!

I was dumbfounded by my charge roll... I'd only needed 6". This was not how things were meant to go! There was nothing I could do to help my prince now- only to hope that my opponent rolled very very poorly for power dice next turn.

Movement: and the rest of my army moved up in a neat line so that, if any were charged by the wide undead hordes, they would be supported by the next unit along. This was a limited response to the crisis slowly building, but seemed the best thing to do at the time: with both my lord-level characters likely to be dead by my next turn, I was down and out unless I could force a couple of big combats, present the Vamps with some hard choices when it came to spell-casting and the Helm of Commandment, and pull off a lucky victory. To buy my combat units a turn, the blue archers moved up at an angle to stop the outer ghouls from flanking the spearelves next turn.

Shooting saw my repeaters continue their good form, felling the best part of a rank of ghouls from the unit on my right.

Vampires Turn 5

My opponent continued his usual policy of moving as little as possible, though his flanking ghouls broke with tradition and surged forward into the archers. Of more concern to me, however, was the magic phase...

10 or 11 power dice, including Mannfred's extra dice, flooded the field and the vampire duly threw 8 of them at Death spells directed against the High Elf prince. The first was deflected and the second was not: Seredain tumbled from his horse and a cry of despair erupted from the elf army (and from their owner, who was now looking very upset). To make matters worse, Mannfred managed to cast Raise Undead horde, putting a load of models back onto the ghoul unit charging my archers and, worse, healing his own lost wounds. Oh dear.

During the charge against them, the archers let fly and, amazingly, brought down a whole handful of ghouls. I started to dream that they could hold for more than a turn, when combat happened. The didn't manage to kill a single ghoul themselves and, in reply, were totally wiped out. The ghouls turned, hungrily, to face the exposed flank of the spearelves.

High Elf Turn 5

My infantry were now in a very poor situation indeed. By the time they saw combat they were meant to be fighting with knights and characters in support or close to being so: now they were on their own and looking like they were going to be flanked by the ghoul horde on their right flank. In placing my blue archers close to the spears, I'd got them in range of the skeletons and been able to pile on the firepower during the early turns, but this also meant that they'd been unable to keep the ghouls away from the spearelves for more than a turn (if I'd deployed them further to the right, they'd be able to take the ghouls into a lonelier part of the field). Now that my fast attack had failed, my right flank, not refused as much as it could've been, was looking vulnerable.

Since fortune favours the bold, I decided to force the issue: an all-or-nothing strike across the undead line. Caradath and the princes charged the spirit hosts, hoping to overrun into the skeletons. The white lions and spearelves charged the inner ghouls while the silver helms, chariot and swordmasters declared a mighty charge against the grave guard. With two major combats going on at once, my opponent would have to split his buffs, hopefully allowing me to win one combat at least. Clarion calls filled the air and...

Image
Nooo!

Image
Oh, dear Lord...

Only the chariot made it into the grave guard. I facepalmed and let out something resembling a howl. The white lions and spears both made it into the ghouls, but a fully-focused undead magic phase would surely see them overwhelmed in short order.

In the shooting phase my repeaters, starting to sense that things were falling apart, lost their focus and failed to land much damage on the flanking ghouls.

During combat, Caradath and the princes easily rode over the spirit hosts but failed, annoyingly, to reach the skeletons beyond with their overrun. The chariot managed to run over a single grave guard before Mannfred smashed it, with contemptuous ease, into the ground. All eyes now turned to the white lions and spearelves... who did ok. More specifically, the white lions did fine and the spearelves failed to kill more than a single ghoul. The ghouls' attacks back, however, were surprisingly lethal: a rank of lions and two ranks of spears were pulled down (I missed Life magic, here). After crumbling, the ghouls were only down to 26 models-plenty enough.

Vampires Turn 6

The second ghoul unit charged the flank of the spearelves, baying for blood. Mannfred, meanwhile, continued to decide that discretion was the better part of valour, opting only to withdraw a little behind the front line of the skeleton unit, to prevent a dragon prince/silver helm/swordmaster triple-team charge.

Image

The magic phase was a disaster. The vamps got a huge surge of power dice for their final turn - the full 12- and put it to work against my white lions and spears. Having drawn my dispel dice out by threatening Caradath with Death spells, Mannfred (whose excellent spell selection- two full lores- had made prioritizing dispel attempts very difficult all game), got VanHels through on the large ghouls (this was the second attempt- I dispelled the first) and raised horde to replenish the ghouls back to 3 full ranks. The former caused another miscast and another wound on the vampire lord, but the latter healed him up again.

Combat was as devastating as expected: the white lions were all killed and the spearelves, finally losing their steadfast to the ASF ghouls, broke and were easily run down by their pursuit. Specifically, the spears fled 3" and the ghouls pursued 12", following the theme of earlier turns.

Image
Ouch.

High Elf Turn 6

It was game over for the elves. I thought long and hard about charging everything I could into the skellies and grave guard but, seeing that the undead magic phase was rampant and since time was getting on (it was about 10pm, so the club was set to close), I shook my opponents hand and called it GG.

The remaining elves quickly retrieved their fallen lords and evacuated the field under cavalry guard. The ghouls began quietly feeding on the mound of fallen elf infantry that remained. Mannfred wiped the dust from his hands.

Image
Defeat!

Naturally I have plenty to say about what went wrong! A combination of bad luck and a couple of silly mistakes put paid to the whole thing (as is usual for most defeats, I'd imagine). I'll let you guys have a read, though, and we'll get into it properly later. Briefly, here are some lessons I've (re)learned.

Lesson 1: if your opponent sits in a corner and refuses to move, but has no long range firepower of any kind, you must feel completely free to keep your distance, shoot away, and play for the draw or minor win. If this is cheesy, it is only as cheesy as castling in the first place.

Lesson 2: If you do go for the killer strike, you must make sure you don't get held up, via your own idiocy, by a 50 point unit of ghosts. This is what they call in the biz 'silly'.

Lesson 3: Do not throw away your archmage on the off-chance that you can cast a good Dwellers. If it works, then great. If it doesn't, however, an undead magic phase led by Mannfred von Carstein will own you, while your own troops will be without the buffs they need for drawn-out combats. Poor white lions.

Lesson 4: One I'm actually very familiar with (see my 2nd O&G report as a nice example) but simply forgot here, confident as I was of quickly steamrolling the undead right flank: If you aim to hold up a refused flank with a throw-away unit, approach the enemy from the outside of their flank and set up the road block a turn before you aim to engage with the unit your road black is covering. This way you should be able to keep the offending enemy unit in the wrong part of the field for longer, rather than allowing it to eat your road block and simply have an easy charge into your flank next turn.

I'll also say for now that, despite being one of the most frustrating games ever, my opponent was a gent and we actually had a really fun game. Now, having lived through this debacle again, I'm going to have a big drink. GG!



P.S. More reports are on the way, including my latest campaign game (2506pt High Elves vs 2750pt Empire), and a titanic battle between an alliance of the forces of Good (4K Brettonians, 4K Lizardmen, 4K High Elves) and Evil (4K Goblins, 4K Dark Elves, 4K Chaos Warriors). Coming soon...

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Last edited by Seredain on Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
P.S. More reports are on the way, including my latest campaign game (2506pt High Elves vs 2750pt Empire), and a titanic battle between an alliance of the forces of Good (4K Brettonians, 4K Lizardmen, 4K High Elves) and Evil (4K Goblins, 4K Dark Elves, 4K Chaos Warriors). Coming soon...

Such the Tease !!!

My condolences on the defeat. BUT you can learn more from a loss then a win, at least that's what they told me when I was a kid playing pee-wee baseball. Those damn horrible charge & flee rolls were worse then bad luck. I guess there is a fine line between getting into CC as soon as possible and delaying CC until your entire army is in position to ready the charges. If you could have remembered to get your character into the Princes, made at least half of your charges you would have been in CC at least a turn sooner, and been in a better situation. Really I think it all came down to those failed charges that killed any chance you had.

Looking forward to the up coming BR especially seeing your going to be at a point disadvantage. GL with that. Also cant wait for the mega battle. Don't keep us waiting too long. Thanks for the BR, I'm learning more and more about this game and the High Elves from this Blog.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Mr Seredain! Mr Seredain! Phloop here from the Ulthuan Tribune! Big fan!
What is your opinion about the use of Special Characters? Especially as Mannfred was definately a big factor in your last game and that many tournaments outright ban them, do you feel that they help or hurt WHFB? And is it true that you're having an affair with Jessica Alba?
Can't wait for the huge game's BR!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Draven wrote:
I guess there is a fine line between getting into CC as soon as possible and delaying CC until your entire army is in position to ready the charges. If you could have remembered to get your character into the Princes, made at least half of your charges you would have been in CC at least a turn sooner, and been in a better situation.

Appreciate the condolences, Draven! What you say is completely true. I did suffer from some horrendous luck but, in truth, I put myself in an awkward position in the first place by simply forgetting to move the BSB. An amazing oversight. The 1 turn delay caused by this error really put me under pressure and made all the bad luck that followed fatal as opposed to inconvenient. Silly Seredain.

Phloop wrote:
Mr Seredain! Mr Seredain! Phloop here from the Ulthuan Tribune! Big fan!
What is your opinion about the use of Special Characters? Especially as Mannfred was definately a big factor in your last game and that many tournaments outright ban them, do you feel that they help or hurt WHFB?

Hey Phloop,

I don't say this out of bitterness but, in truth, I don't like special characters and always feel a little sag of disappointment when I see an opponent fielding them. For me they're the last vestiges of the big 7th Ed imbalances but, more particularly, they're also not as much fun to play with or against. Inventing your own characters with their own back story is more what this hobby is about, IMHO. Apart from anything else, using a character which has been pre-designed for you is just lazy! You need to use your brain to create your own character: pulling one out of a book is like buying Ikea furniture- effective but never imaginative. My most regular opponents, like me, all eschew their use but, in the campaign I'm playing, there are no limits to using them. Even saying all the above, if it makes enemy armies harder, it makes you a better player, though I probably wouldn't enter a tournament which allowed them (I will never, ever, field Teclis).

In this instance, Mannfred really hurt me in a way beyond the capabilities of a normal Vampire lord. His spell selection makes your dispel priorities very difficult and his extra power dice make things worse. Mind you, he wasn't the sole reason I lost. I knew he had Death spells, so was perfectly able to keep my archmage at a distance. That I failed to do so was an episode of arrogance which I lived to regret. And then of course there was the balls-up with the dragon princes and my inability to nail a decent charge...

Phloop wrote:
And is it true that you're having an affair with Jessica Alba?

It's true that Jessica and I have dated, but it didn't work out. I'm pleased to say, however, that there are absolutely no hard feelings and I wish her all the best for the future. She's a great girl and I'm sure she'll be just fine.

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Can't wait for the huge game's BR!

That battle was a 9-hour marathon of pain... Give me a few days and I'll tell you all about it..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:15 am 
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Bad luck old son.

I guess you knew the dangers Death magic held for your characters, just a case of not having much margin for error. Kind of game you'd replay at once, confident of doing much better. I think your army's all about timing and this was off for once.

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35977

...was interesting re spell repertoire.

Looking forward to the Empire!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:15 am 
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at least he did move ;)

A delay of a full turn is a big thing especially with a list like yours.
Unfortunately we all fail the occasional stupidity test from time to time.

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SpellArcher wrote:
Bad luck old son.

I guess you knew the dangers Death magic held for your characters, just a case of not having much margin for error. Kind of game you'd replay at once, confident of doing much better. I think your army's all about timing and this was off for once.

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35977

...was interesting re spell repertoire.

Cheers chap. Yeah I wouldn't mind fighting against that kind of list all over again, though for sure I could do without being 200 points behind! That's an interesting thread. It's easy to forget how powerful a decent spell selection can be- it doesn't get you any extra casts, but it certainly makes it more likely that the spells you do manage to get off will be more effective. Flesh to Stone and Shield of Saphery, for example, make an excellent team since they effectively give you two chances to achieve the same aim (protect that unit). All 3 of the battles I've recently played were a nice reminder of this but, on that note, I won't give anything away before I do the reports...

BorkBork wrote:
at least he did move ;)

A delay of a full turn is a big thing especially with a list like yours.
Unfortunately we all fail the occasional stupidity test from time to time.

Wise words Bork! I failed that test big time! Since my list is largely about the movement phase, screwing that up tends to be very very bad...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:04 pm 
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Hi Seredain!

That was a very interesting battle and an unusual one too. A pity about bad luck. It always feels better when dice do not betray you and even if you lose it is due to your opponent being better. Saying that I must admit I found your play too cautious. It is probably due to different characters but I saw myself charging two times already while you kept waiting :) I am not saying my way is better (quite contrary when you judge by the number of my defeats :)). However, I would go for that glorious charge in the last round of combat. The way I see units are aligned you would have 3 units against his 2. There was a chance to kill his BSB in Grave Guard (if I am not mistaken he was still there) and then get rid of that regeneration banner. What is more Dragon Princes would fight against Skeletons and would even further increase the combat resolution into your favour. I do not know if it would be enough to kill both undead units in one go but I would try it anyway.

Looking forward some more battle reports. You do need to make up for that long break especially in the middle of a very interesting battle :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Hey Swordmaster!

The last turn charge was an interesting one... Honestly, you're totally right. It's not like I had anything to lose by taking it. Basically the only reason I didn't take the charge was from despair. Deep, dark despair.

Having said that, an important problem was that the skeletons and grave guard weren't exactly aligned: my opponent (to his credit) had deployed teh grave guard back slightly so that I wouldn't be able to claim CR on the grave guard by killing skellies. That meant it'd be up to Caradath, the silver helms and the swordmasters to hammer the grave guard by themselves. They might have been able to do it but I was pretty sure they weren't going to wipe a whole unit in one turn (especially considering the Helm of Commandment was still alive), so I wouldn't get any points for the combat even if I mauled those guard. That was my fault though- I should've charged with everything on the turn my prince went in. Of course, with the dice I was rolling, I would've failed those charges. :)

Caution is something that I usually turn into a strength- I tend to avoid combats that I'm not going to win massively- but sometimes you've just gotta accept that you can't always manoeuvre yourself into a position where winning is a dead-cert!

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Looking forward some more battle reports. You do need to make up for that long break especially in the middle of a very interesting battle :)

Hahaha, yeah, my bad! If it makes you feel better, my holidaying days are over for the moment since I've now totally run out of money. More reports on the way!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
The last turn charge was an interesting one... Honestly, you're totally right. It's not like I had anything to lose by taking it. Basically the only reason I didn't take the charge was from despair. Deep, dark despair.

Ah, I see. I guess you need to develop this bloodthirsty habit of Khorne and his followers, the more they hit you the more you want to hit them back :)

Seredain wrote:
Having said that, an important problem was that the skeletons and grave guard weren't exactly aligned: my opponent (to his credit) had deployed teh grave guard back slightly so that I wouldn't be able to claim CR on the grave guard by killing skellies. That meant it'd be up to Caradath, the silver helms and the swordmasters to hammer the grave guard by themselves. They might have been able to do it but I was pretty sure they weren't going to wipe a whole unit in one turn (especially considering the Helm of Commandment was still alive), so I wouldn't get any points for the combat even if I mauled those guard. That was my fault though- I should've charged with everything on the turn my prince went in. Of course, with the dice I was rolling, I would've failed those charges. :)

Indeed, with the Helm in action that would make it all more problematic. I would actually roll some dice just to see what might have happened. How hard Manfred is to kill? Was there a chance to kill him with your BSB? Or other troops?

Seredain wrote:
Caution is something that I usually turn into a strength- I tend to avoid combats that I'm not going to win massively- but sometimes you've just gotta accept that you can't always manoeuvre yourself into a position where winning is a dead-cert!

I am sure you can! But maybe sometimes you are too careful in the same way as I would use your patience often when I simply spurred the horse and charged :)

Seredain wrote:
Hahaha, yeah, my bad! If it makes you feel better, my holidaying days are over for the moment since I've now totally run out of money. More reports on the way!

Excellent! (I mean about reports not money!) The sooner the better! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:09 pm 
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I have to agree with Swordmaster. It's not often an opponent has all of the threat wrapped up in one unit, but Manfred was the driving force behind the army. The grave guard, while a threat, was acting more as a deterrent to killing Manfred, and it was the resulting caution which cost you the game. To that extent, I would have used the eagle not to block the grave guard (they weren't moving anyway), but rather send the silver helms and chariot into the Grave Guard as soon as possible, and use the eagle to prevent a combo charge.

The focused combination of Seredain and Caradeth along with silver helm charge should be more than enough to overwhelm his defense. The extra attacks could be directed at the BSB, and while the attacks back might be devastating, you've effectively neutered a magic phase by reducing it to Level 2's, a lack of extra magic dice, and reduced the spell selection from 16 to a mere 4. This would completely open your back game, and reduce the effective fighting of the entire Tomb King army.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Cheers chap. Yeah I wouldn't mind fighting against that kind of list all over again, though for sure I could do without being 200 points behind! That's an interesting thread. It's easy to forget how powerful a decent spell selection can be- it doesn't get you any extra casts, but it certainly makes it more likely that the spells you do manage to get off will be more effective. Flesh to Stone and Shield of Saphery, for example, make an excellent team since they effectively give you two chances to achieve the same aim (protect that unit). All 3 of the battles I've recently played were a nice reminder of this but, on that note, I won't give anything away before I do the reports...

In general I'm not sold on multiple wizards, I'm a minimalist. I think many HE lists work best for their creator but this is especially true of Furion's, it's got unusual dynamics. I know that Tethlis has had joy with the Life/Shield combo.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:48 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
In general I'm not sold on multiple wizards, I'm a minimalist. I think many HE lists work best for their creator but this is especially true of Furion's, it's got unusual dynamics. I know that Tethlis has had joy with the Life/Shield combo.

In general I agree with you: getting an extra wizard doesn't, usually, get you any extra power for your phase, so I normally find that every point spent on extra wizards gets you diminishing returns. Having said that, if you get a ton of power dice, having the extra spell selection really can make life Hell for your opponent. Life/shield is a lovely example- very effective and doesn't need a lot of power.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
Indeed, with the Helm in action that would make it all more problematic. I would actually roll some dice just to see what might have happened. How hard Manfred is to kill? Was there a chance to kill him with your BSB? Or other troops?

He had an item or ability which gave him 2 extra wounds, so he wasn't an easy proposition. My BSB and some troops could've taken him down but there was nothing to stop him issuing challenges if he needed to, so I'd probably end up having to make do with either/or. I don't think the BSB could've taken him by himself, to be honest: every time Mannfred cast Raise Undead Horde he was putting lost wounds back onto himself (I wasn't aware vamps could do this- it's a humdinger!).

Baeronvonbleat wrote:
The focused combination of Seredain and Caradeth along with silver helm charge should be more than enough to overwhelm his defense. The extra attacks could be directed at the BSB, and while the attacks back might be devastating, you've effectively neutered a magic phase by reducing it to Level 2's, a lack of extra magic dice, and reduced the spell selection from 16 to a mere 4. This would completely open your back game, and reduce the effective fighting of the entire Tomb King army.

I think that's probably right- trying to get in a turn earlier would have meant, at least, that my mistake with the DPs wouldn't have dominated my game in the way it did, though I haven't run any dice tests as to how that combat would've turned out. Once I'd ballsed up on the left flank I maybe should have been ready to alter my plan: ie keep the archmage alive for his buffs (should've done that anyway) and just go for it in the attack! Waiting around didn't get me anywhere. Of course, if Seredain had made it in by himself in the first place and I'd actually managed to hit those charges with the swords and silver helms in his wake, we maybe wouldn't be having this conversation! As it turned out, though, 1 turn mistake + 1 turn of bad luck = 2 wasted turns- way too many.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Very true, in the games that i have lost i have always managed to work out at a turn where it was my action, or lack of that cost me that game.

With my friends we are very anayliticial after a game and we tear strips(constuctivily) of our games and that of each other.

For example - caustious woc player against gun line with some heavy hitter. Was sitting back trying to work out which charges to make and avoid being flanked charge. Discussion we had after was , by the time he did commit, he had lost to much of his strikes to break through and break steadfast that the game was already over for him. He is now allot more agressive in his play style and it has increased his win ratio. We have found by doing this after a game in a very open way has improved us all as players.

It is prob why so many of us find these forums and battle reports useful as it teaches us to review and think out what we are doing and have done.

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Seredain, I've just spent the last four hours reading through the sixteen pages of reporting you've done here. I have an infantry based force drawn from the IoB set and have just purchased more Silver Helms off of Ebay days ago. Then I found your post. You hear it a lot, but terrific job with the setup and follow through of your topic. I don't have any stump the professor questions, but I would like to know: did you have prior experience in the military, if so, what function, or are you simply a scholar of military history with some training in developing a concise thesis with logical arguments? A lot of your wording and understanding of the Principles of War puts me in the mindset of Sun Tzu or Clausewitz (I serve as an infantry officer with the United States Army, to put this question in context). You have an excellent grasp of linear battlespace.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Oberon wrote:
Seredain, I've just spent the last four hours reading through the sixteen pages of reporting you've done here. I have an infantry based force drawn from the IoB set and have just purchased more Silver Helms off of Ebay days ago. Then I found your post. You hear it a lot, but terrific job with the setup and follow through of your topic. I don't have any stump the professor questions, but I would like to know: did you have prior experience in the military, if so, what function, or are you simply a scholar of military history with some training in developing a concise thesis with logical arguments? A lot of your wording and understanding of the Principles of War puts me in the mindset of Sun Tzu or Clausewitz (I serve as an infantry officer with the United States Army, to put this question in context). You have an excellent grasp of linear battlespace.

Cheers dude! Thanks for your very kind words. I'm glad you've found the above useful reading.

I don't have any military experience, no, though I am pretty good at paintball (I'm guessing that doesn't count...). I did study ancient history and philosophy for 4 years (before selling my soul and doing law) and, though the course itself wasn't particularly military-themed (excepting a good module covering Philip of Macedon's reforms), I did always maintained an interest in the military side of things. So, I read a lot around the subject (lots of ancient histories are written by men who were themselves generals- Thucydides, Xenophon, Caesar), especially on the evolution of Bronze Age, Greek, Hellenistic and Roman tactics & technology. I also always played Warhammer and found the one interest aided greatly me in the latter- your imagination of a battle is much more vivid if you've studied ancient armies in some detail and, more particularly, the inspiration for the way my army plays came directly from Alexander's deployment at Gaugamela (as we covered in some depth a few pages back). Magic ruins the analogy slightly but the other elements- refused flanks, combined arms to put pressure on a single point, a cavalry coup de grace- all hold good in Fantasy.

As for the logic; studying philosophy is basically all about arguing: you get good at seeing problems and working your mind around how to solve them. Warhammer has the advantage in this respect, however, since you can test out everything you argue by rolling some dice! ;) We've mentioned it quite a lot but, if everyone did a bit of mental arithmetic before every major combat (indeed before every deployment once you know what enemy army you're facing), they'd find themselves winning more games.

Cheers again- I should probably put a photo up to show how non-military I really look!

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
I did study ancient history and philosophy

Lol, I did philosophy!

:)

Work out what the hell Kant was going on about?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:32 am 
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I don't remember Kant very well to be honest. I think he was trying to assert, in the face of the Enlightenment sceptics (esp. Hume), that certain things could be said to exist without our having experienced them ourselves: for example, that knowing (a) and knowing (b) together makes it certain that (c) is true: even if you've never experienced (c) in any way.

The problem is that you can only 'know' an image of (c). You can never know (objectively) the qualities of 'the thing itself' because you'll only ever know your own perception of it. There are limits to what human reason is capable of and, therefore, we must accept that things must exist which lie outside of human experience and, crucially, man's ability to reason (because reasoning your way to a conclusion is just another form of experience).

I can't remember why specifically, but I do remember that Kant's arguments had problems for me. I'm happy to accept that things exist and are 'true' whether or not we are able to regard them to be so (Plato), but to argue about the existence of too many things based only on our absence of empirical knowledge is usually asking for trouble. Reason can perhaps take you to the founding principles of an issue ("God exists"), but you get lost quickly if you start trying to add detail ("God exists and has a beard"), especially if you deny the 'knowing' capabilities of reason in the first place, as Kant does. Therefore, although you could argue that things do exist which must always lie outside of our experience, you could never say (purely on this basis) what those things were. If I recall correctly, I think Kant tries to impose a load of metaphysics with spiritual overtones (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and, for me, it didn't work too well.

Finally, I actually have quite a lot of faith in Logical Reasoning's ability to argue things into existence (subject to the limits described above). If Kant wanted to have an argument with Hume, I feel he might have had a go at the conclusions Hume reached rather than 'pure reason' itself.

However; since, empirically speaking, I can't remember much at all, I better stop adding detail before I myself get lost!


P.S. Empire battle report is on the way...

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Last edited by Seredain on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:38 am 
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Spoilers? Was it a gunline?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Battle Report Preview - 2506 High Elves vs 2750 Empire
The Lists

2506 High Elves

Seredain
Prince - Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec

Lecalion
Level 4 Archmage - Life Magic, Dispel Scroll, Folariath's Robe

Caradath
Battle Standard Bearer - Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon

Acheron
Level 1 Mage - Metal Magic, Jewel of the Dusk - 115

35 Spearelves - Full Command, Banner of Discipline (archmage here)
14 Archers - Musician - 159
11 Archers - 121

12 White Lions - Full Command
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord
8 Silver Helms - High Helm, Musician, Shields
5 Dragon Princes
1 Tiranoc Chariot

2 Eagles


So, I'd made some changes. Having had my mines gimped for two turns in a row, and on the back of my first defeat, I finally resolved to tailor my list (if only slightly) against my opponent. Thus far all my opponents had changed their lists to fight me and, since I was now 250 points down, I decided to be ruthless. I had 6 gold to spend, at least, plus the points retrieved from raiding my list for things I felt I could (or would have to) live without.

First off, the repeaters. I find them useful against Empire under normal circumstances but, since I was outnumbered, I resolved to drop them. The Empire army I was likely to face would consist of a serious combat army plus a load of guns. I would have no choice but to go on the full attack and, in these circumstances, I had to spend points to make that push better. The repeaters had to go. Other stuff I lost included the small stuff I knew I wouldn't need (Amulet of Light, Plucker Pendant, Banner of Eternal Flame), to be replaced by small stuff I would need (Ironcurse Icon). The big things I added were:

The Metal Mage with Jewel of the Dusk: I'd be facing knights and/or a Steam Tank. I would Searing Doom them.

Folariath's Robe+ Banner of Discipline: Lecalion would take on the duty of leading the spears, giving them Ld 10, regen (Earthblood) and being immune to attacks in combat, he'd make them a serious anvil. He'd also tempt the Empire into shooting the spears rather than my knights: and I figured my opponent would keep shooting until he hit the mage and realised he was a ghost.

The extra eagle: for rushing guns.

The High Helm: in case there was a Van Horstmann's Speculum floating around- this guy would take him while my characters went slaying...

2750 Empire
His list turned out to be...


Kurt Helborg- Runefang, Laurels of Victory, Mounted Kit, Stuff
Wizard Lord- Level 4, Rod of Power, 4+ Ward, Shadow Magic
Wizard- Level 2, Dispel Scroll, Death Magic

Captain BSB- Mounted Kit, Stuff
Captain- Mounted Kit, Ogre Blade

10 Inner Circle Knights- Great Weapons, Full Command (Kurt & BSB here)
10 Inner Circle Knights- Great Weapons, Full Command (Captain here)

20 Handgunners- Full Command, Hochland Long Rifle (Wizard Lord here)
20 Handgunners- Full Command, Hochland Long Rifle (Wizard here)
20 Handgunners- Full Command, Hochland Long Rifle
5 Knights- Great Weapons
5 Knights- Great Weapons

Cannon
Cannon
Mortar
Mortar
Mortar

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