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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:38 pm 
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Awesome win! Congratulations.

I think he should have uses his BT more offensivly, but good game. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:45 pm 
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Most impressive - well played! The situation with the WS was really enervating though ..


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Seradain,

This I think was the best example of why the Giant blade is such an important part of your prince. His grinding potential, and the ability of the Silverhelms to stay around with those +2 armor saves makes the Silverhelm bus the perfect unit to get stuck into grinding combats. This is the unit that alot of armies have, that elves lack, and when you introduce that you really have alot of opportunities to set up surrounds (loved the DP's in this one.)

As to the battle, I think your bolt throwers would have had a better effect against the slannesh units, and I think the BT moved you away of your typical mantra of shooting the support, but it still worked out. The 14 swordmasters holding up a BT was amazing, and goes against many gamers feelings that small units are going to get runnover.

I saw a HE army yesterday for Aard boyz that was 4 blocks. 2 groups of 40ish spears 7x5 1 group of 40 SM and 1 group of 40PG with 2 level 2 mages (High and Metal) and an archmage of life with a prince of foot and bsb.

I was amazed that people are terrified of this army, it just seems so unwieldly and easy to avoid. 40 SM would be scary, but only after the intial burst, after that it seems like you could chew through them easily.

Anyways,
Great Battle Report, looking forward to the rest of the Mighty Empire campaign.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Well done! Thanks again for such a great report. Leadership 10 came in real handy here as well as the crucial BSB reroll on the break test.

Follow your gut on those rules questions. The ending may not have been so long in coming had your knights not overrun.

Meridian wrote:
The 14 swordmasters holding up a BT was amazing, and goes against many gamers feelings that small units are going to get runnover.

Not to mention a great example of strategic challenging to help keep those SM steadfast.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Congrats awesome game :)

By far the worst thing demon players have is their incredible ability to pass 5+ wards as if they were 2+ ones!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Looks like your opponent has been reading the new GW book!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:30 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Then I rolled a 5.

Nice!

Really well played! Excellent maneouvering and as mentioned your units had the staying power to cope when outmatched Daemons refused to budge (as they do so often).

Onwards and upwards for the list!

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:31 pm 
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It's incredible that you won the game despite his loaded dice ;)

Congratulations on the win, well played game! Keeping the Bloodthirster away from anything important for so long was definitely a key to your success. I believe your opponent played him too defensively. His movement also failed pretty hard when you reacted way slower than I suppose he would've expected. When you didn't advance - unlike most people - he was left with a really awkward battleline. That, combined with a bloodthirster failing to make a difference gave you a great opportunity - which you promptly took and made short work even in the face of his insane rolls to save.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:26 am 
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Wow! Talk about luck on your opponents part! I can't believe he made so many ward saves! Good job overcoming so much luck on your opponent's part and still pulling out the massacre! Great battle! I really enjoyed reading it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:28 am 
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Damn dodgy dice!!

Congrats Seredain.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Amazing battle report as usual Seredain. Were those all 5+ wards he was making? If so, I think he stole all the pips off my space marine dice who consistently manage to fail 3+ armor saves at the same rate that he was making those wards.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:01 pm 
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With the Siren Song and Obsidian Armour on the Daemon side, I really thought the fight would go the other way. He needs to use the Siren Song to put your important unit in position where he can charge with the bloodletters and the bloodthirster, and I think he could have done that had he waited a turn.

Well done with the Eagle. Might show him how much he needs Furies and/or Flamers against a good opponent.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:05 pm 
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High Elves vs Daemons - Debrief

Cheers everybody!

Bet you thought I was in trouble for a sec, eh? ;)

Ghogra wrote:
Amazing battle report as usual Seredain. Were those all 5+ wards he was making? If so, I think he stole all the pips off my space marine dice who consistently manage to fail 3+ armor saves at the same rate that he was making those wards.

Yes, he was actually rolling that many 5+ saves. I've never seen anything like it. He was using big dice and I was using the tiny little GW ones. I have resolved to ritually burn these little dice and get myself some big ones.

The Repeaters

Meridian wrote:
As to the battle, I think your bolt throwers would have had a better effect against the slannesh units, and I think the BT moved you away of your typical mantra of shooting the support, but it still worked out.

As things turned out, this was absolutely true. The Thirster did, in the end, give me a little tunnel vision. I really wanted to get some wounds on him early and decided that I was happy to lose the repeaters for the chance, but they never even hit him! In any case, the game wasn't to be decided on whether they lived or died. However, if I'd targeted the support with the bolters, I would have preserved them to the end of the game, perhaps allowing me to get more shots on the Thirster in the final turns.

dabber wrote:
With the Siren Song and Obsidian Armour on the Daemon side, I really thought the fight would go the other way. He needs to use the Siren Song to put your important unit in position where he can charge with the bloodletters and the bloodthirster, and I think he could have done that had he waited a turn.

Well done with the Eagle. Might show him how much he needs Furies and/or Flamers against a good opponent.

Bloodthirsters and Siren Songs

I wasn't sure, in the end, whether the Bloodthirster had the Obsidian Armour or not. I know he had a 3+ AS but because I never hit him with a magic weapon I never found out if there was more to it. My knowledge of the Daemon book is poor - is there a 3+ AS the Bloodthirster can get without taking the Obsidian Armour?

In any case, my prince wasn't the best target for this particular Thirster. He was only Str 6 and obviously couldn't thunderstomp knights, so my prince, getting a 4+ re-rollable armour save and 5+ ward, would have tanked him pretty well- especially with Lore of Life available. This would not only have blunted the BT's damage-dealing potential, but also have freed up my swordmasters to do some killing of their own - a big slice of added pressure on the left flank. And then, as for the bloodletters, I managed to hold them up to the point where they couldn't take advantage of Siren Song. Of course, if his Thirster charged my knights and the dice went as badly as they did, well then I'd be in trouble. :)

Having thought about it, I don't think Siren Song is as good as it must have been in 7th, since the maximum number of inches it'll make you move, in the event of a failed charge, is 6- typically lower. It's therefore harder to pull my knights as far out of position as the old failed charge of 8" (base movement) would have done (having thought about it - since siren song can only work where the charge is possible, presumably in 7th it would always lead to a successful charge? If so, there's a big difference between 16" and an average 4"!). All in all, since I had harassment units to block the 'letters counter-attack, a knight unit able to resist charges and a decent fighting prince (with the Life archmage always ready to throw some toughness down), I felt pretty secure given the nasty things I was facing.

The Eagle

The eagle was something my opponent really failed to manage. Furies are worth thinking about but, actually, he had the tools to deal with it in the fiends. Since he was so afraid of my repeaters, however, he devoted both fiends to hunting them down. Likewise his fear of the repeaters drove him to a cautious deployment and movement of the Bloodthirster- he was convinced a big bolt was going to hit him every single turn and so spent to whole time trying to stay at long range. This meant he was never really close enough to my helms to really have an impact on them. In the end, the repeaters never managed to hit him (more bad luck there), but their effect on the game, in drawing all the support units out of the daemon army and in keeping the BT at long range, was probably tremendous.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Then I rolled a 5.

Nice!

Onwards and upwards for the list!

Huzzah!

Dude I was totally bricking it when I rolled that break test. Phew it was close!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
is there a 3+ AS the Bloodthirster can get without taking the Obsidian Armour?

Armour of Khorne.

Seredain wrote:
Dude I was totally bricking it when I rolled that break test. Phew it was close!

I remember taking a BSB when it wasn't fashionable and seeing the look of sheer disappointment on an opponent's face when the re-roll kicked in.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:51 am 
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Marinero wrote:
I am facing a DE game with a really scary build (under ETC rules):
* Dreadlord, pendant, crown of command, dark steed
* Dreadlord, 1+ AS, 4++ WS, pegasus
* Noble, BSB, regeneration, pegasus

* sorceress, lvl 2, item that allows a unit to reroll missed shooting attacks, dispel scroll (shadow)
* sorceress, lvl 2, seal of grond (shadow)

* 35 crossbows in 2 units
* 3x5 DRs with spears
* 2x COC
* 6-7 shades
* 2xRBTs
* Hydra
There are also some additional items, units and weapons I am not certain about...

Seredain, how would you deal with this army?

Thoughts on Harassment-Heavy Dark Elves

Marinero,

I've had a little think about this and figure we should start by looking at this army's strengths and weaknesses.

Strength: Awesome manouvreability and excellent mobile shooting power. It's like an MSU list but it has really heavy hitters and units which can move and fire effectively. Against shooting-light opponents, presumably it plays avoidance, shoots things to hell and uses its powerful characters, chariots and hydra to finish off what's left. In order to beat it then, you want to deny him one of those 'arms' of ability for as long as you can.

Weakness: His shooting has, by and large, only 24" range. His list relies on manoevreability at the cost of lacking much in the way of ranks. Rule number 1, then, is to deploy out of range. Rule number 2 is to deny your units' flank to the fast DE units, preventing him from using his manoeuvreability against you, by refusing to deploy centrally or advance up the middle. Finally, a great weakness of this DE list is that it has no ranked units. His powerful stuff (dreadlords, hydras, chariots) can be successfully tanked by a ranked up unit where it hasn't been shot to pieces: they'll get kills, but they won't break steadfast units unless they're all charging the same target. You should, therefore, be able to hold up his killer dreadlords- this will provide you with counter-attacking opportunities of your own against the hydra and pegasi or, alternatively, allow you to steamroll his base of crossbowmen before he can do the same to your infantry and archers.

The Plan

Marching out into the field is just going to get you shot, redirected and then counter-charged by chariots - it's not a good plan. I think I'd deploy a heavily refused flank, here. Since this guy relies on having lots of open space to move about in to get at flanks etc, deploying in this way will deny him that and leave his vulnerable dark riders and shades just sitting infront of your shooting (make sure you fill in your back field with deployments to prevent the scout, as we discussed in Deployment). Deploying back will give your shooting phase the edge in Turn 1, as will lore of Life, which'll be very effective against crossbows and multiple bolts. Put the archmage in a unit needing Regeneration and you are in a position (looking at my army) to make almost all of your units resistant to his shooting: Regen on spears (for example), Stone on swordmasters, lion cloaks on white lions, 2+ AS on knights, 1+ rr AS on characters, while you can pop back lost wounds onto your repeaters to maintain your missile fire (he can't do that). Your opponent has more shots, but your range and defence (also retaking panic tests) is better - you must take advantage of this. This should force him to move his crossbows forward, placing them closer to a cavalry charge. Also, you'll have access to Dwellers Below. Indeed, your magic phase will be better than his if you're fielding an archmage - you can punish him there.

For Turns 1 and 2, priority targets are the dark riders and reapers- they're both going to be shooting your soft elves up on Turn 1 and, with fast cav feigned flight, they're also both the biggest early threat (via shooting and redirection) to your knights. 25 archers will, on average, kill one reaper per turn. Have them do that and use your own repeaters to start clearing out dark riders (awakening of the wood is also good here and against shades). Units like the chariot, eagle, dragon princes and individually fielded cavalry characters can provide you with exclusion zones around your army, keeping the riders and shades away from your soft troops during this early part of the game. Getting these units out the way early will open up the rest of the board for your infantry and heavy armour, which, together, is more than capable of taking on his other elements: both my knights and my large spear block can take hits from crossbows, while the eagle and chariot provide decent saturation. I'd probably keep the elites further back with the archers (and ideally the prince), and have them worry about the hydra, chariots and pegasi.

'Unkillable' Dreadlords

EDIT: Having not spotted that the pendant dreadlord in this particular list was wearing the Crown of Command (with thanks to Elindar), the following will be useful when thinking about Unkillable dreadlords in general. In the example below, the dreadlord rides with dark riders, but the same would apply if he were with cold ones: kill the troopers and make him run on combat res. I've had another think about the Crown of Command dreadlord featured in the above DE list and have recorded my thoughts on him in a second post, below.

The unkillable dreadlord is a pain but there's an easy way to beat him if he deploys with a unit of dark riders (as would seem likely to start with). Don't shoot that unit, but deploy a knight unit opposite it. As long as he's with them, they've lost the Fast Cavalry special rule, so they can't march and shoot (one less missile threat for you to handle on turn 1 - excellent) and, more importantly, they can't feign flight. Charge them with some knights and a tanking character (noble, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix is a good one). Tank the dreadlord's hits with the noble and kill all of the cavalry around him - you should break him on combat res, giving you a chance to run him down without needing to score a wound. Getting another fast unit in there (like an eagle) will increase the chances of running him down. If he gets away (or just flees) and rallies, he still has to spend the turn doing nothing - which is good for you and bad for him.


If the dreadlord (any dreadlord!) runs around by himself and your repeaters are free, shoot him. Multiple shots should, at close range, score two wounds per turn (might be 1.5), so it's worth a go. If there are other necessary targets available, though, I'd be tempted to take them and not worry too much about him. Ultimately, he's only 4 attacks and, in many circumstances, it'll be better to concentrate on the dangerous stuff around him rather than waste all your efforts in trying to take him down at all costs. Units like this guy earn their points by the damage they prevent as well as the damage they cause. By taking other targets with your shooting and running damage-limitation tactics, as opposed to trying your hardest to kill him outright, you can limit this character's impact upon the game.

Overview

As discussed, remember that the dark elf characters can't break steadfast so, without another unit alonside them, you'll have time to counter them once they've engaged in close combat. Using your harassment, tank characters and manoeuvreing your units well can deny him the multi-character/monster/chariot combo charge that can make them dangerous.

As for the crossbows, our tank cavalry characters are basically immune to them (1+ re-rolled save). Once I'm done clearing away chaff, I could probably pin a unit in place with the BSB and then follow up with the spearelves to avoid the stand and shoot while running all my cavalry at the other (remember that his shorter range forces him to close with you, making him more vulnerable to an early cavalry charge). As for the prince, I think I'd rather keep him close to my archers and the elites (assuming I can get rid of the reapers), using him to cover the moves my opponent makes with his fast attack stuff. He'll eat chariots, hydras and pegasi with ease, especially with units like the lions and swordmasters alongside. Archmage stays nearby to help him and the smaller units tank damage. Pigeon plucker pendant, meanwhile, once again saves the day by making the prince extra pegasus proof, which is nice.

So, these are my initial thoughts. When I get home I'll draw up a quick map showing how I'd like to deploy - a lot would depend on where this guy places his hydra and chariots but, in principle, I'd heavily refuse a flank to best take advantage of my better range and limit his options in the movement phase. In summary; shoot the fast light stuff first, then use your characters, shooting and elites combined to take out his hard models and use your knights to run over crossbows. The spearelves will provide an excellent hard point to block his chariots or can run over crossbows, depending on how the field looks.

Hope this helps!

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Marinero wrote:
* Dreadlord, pendant, crown of command, dark steed

Seredain wrote:
Charge them with some knights and a tanking character (noble Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix is a good one), tank the dreadlord's hits and kill all of the dark riders around him - you should break him on combat res, giving you a chance to run him down without needing to score a wound.

Quite difficult when the guy is stubborn and Ld 10 :roll:

I agree for bolt throwers, multiple shots are effective against this dreadlord.
Thanks for all the other advices, very useful! :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Hahaha! Er, well spotted. :)

Let's use the above in respect of non-stubborn dreadlords then (unless you're willing to go for a seerstaff Death mage to get rid of his Ld10). A good rule of thumb is that, if you're facing a tanking character, kill the models around him and force the break- I've edited the above post accordingly.

The Crown of Command+Pendant Dreadlord

If you're not confident of killing this guy, then (in combat or with shooting), the best thing you can do is not field a single expensive unit close to him which he can pin in place. Shift your characters out of their units if you have to.

If he's deploying with the dark riders, at least you don't need to worry about that target when it comes to Turn 1 shooting, since they won't be an early threat, having lost their fast cav abilities (indeed, give thanks that you need to worry about fewer crossbows). If he stays with his unit, you may as well throw in a cheaper tanking character (a BSB with the Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix, for example), and hold him in place for far fewer points than he's spent on the same ability. A small elite unit can likewise hold him for fewer points, Life magic being an excellent help. Indeed, with Life spells going off, even archers could hold this character if they had to. In principle, then, if you can't shoot him:

1) Hold the Pendant dreadlord in place with something cheaper;
2) Kill everything else while he's stuck there.

There's only one Pendant- don't let it ruin your day. As for the pegasi characters in the above DE list, you can kill them in combat because they don't have Khaleth.

EDIT: Here is a link to Marinero's army list FYI. http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=34889&p=710723#p710723

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Last edited by Seredain on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:57 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
is there a 3+ AS the Bloodthirster can get without taking the Obsidian Armour?

Armour of Khorne.?

Ah, I bet that's what he had. He really didn't seem keen on meeting my prince. I'll edit the Obsidian Armour out of the report.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Hey Seredain, thank you very much for your feedback. I really appreciate it. If I manage to have this game on Sunday I will write a detailed report and further this topic, as it may be interesting for improving HE's game vs the dark kin

I also think that the unkillable stubborn dreadlord is best ignored and killing the rest of the army should be my priority. I hope that I would be able to implement it. And of course, that the dice gods will smile on me ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:42 pm 
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No problems man.

Marinero wrote:
I also think that the unkillable stubborn dreadlord is best ignored and killing the rest of the army should be my priority. I hope that I would be able to implement it. And of course, that the dice gods will smile on me ;)

I think this is right. Block him with something cheaper than he his and, for as long as that combat is dragging on, you've made a net gain in points.

Good luck - looking forward to the report!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:48 am 
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Seredain, I don't suppose you've thought about a 2k list anymore at all beyond page 5?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:45 am 
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Hey Jimmy,

Jimmy wrote:
Seredain, I don't suppose you've thought about a 2k list anymore at all beyond page 5?

I haven't actually! Fortunately the Mighty Empires campaign is a 2500pt affair.

The 2k option basically comes down to which single Lord choice you want to go with. You do have to wonder if holding onto the prince is worth losing the powerful magic phase but, on the other hand, at 2k there'd be very few models out there capable of taking the prince down - he'd be very powerful at this points level - and there's nothing stopping you getting a decent magic defence with High Magic and High Elf arcane items. The Radiant Gem BSB and a level 1 with a scroll, both with High Magic for Shield of Saphery and Drain Magic, would be a good option and mitigate your magical weaknesses nicely.

If you go the archmage route (and there's every reason to), you'll keep the powerful magic phase and can compensate slightly for the loss of the prince by tanking up your BSB - Great Weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix would work (unless you want to get Loec in there to add killing power). 9 Silver Helms with High Helm and Musican would make an excellent cut-price tank. Buying yourself an extra tiranoc chariot (or a lion chariot) to run alongside it will add further punch in the absence of the prince.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:52 am 
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Any games coming up old chap?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:26 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Any games coming up old chap?

Me? No, not for a couple of weeks- I'm off on holiday to the US of A. Next game will be round 2 of the campaign, which'll probably take place more or less as soon as I get back.

No idea who I'll be facing yet. So far only two armies have scored maximum points (mine and some ghoul / grave guard Vampire Counts), so, according to the rules of the campaign, I don't get to choose my opponent until last. I might end up playing the vampires on this basis. On the other hand, most players don't know much about each others' armies at this stage, so someone might choose to play me thinking I'm one of the other High Elf armies!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
some ghoul / grave guard Vampire Counts

That'd be interesting.

Seredain wrote:
someone might choose to play me thinking I'm one of the other High Elf armies

Surely your fame precedes you? This thread is already being linked on other forums!

:)

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Cavalry Prince Reloaded
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Well I had a game tonight at 2k running the AM with life with a noble leading the Silverhelms, I didn't even take a BSB. Some very bad rolls really cost me badly but I managed to scrape a minor victory in the end. I'll post the list up for those interested in my own thread.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Jimmy wrote:
Well I had a game tonight at 2k running the AM with life with a noble leading the Silverhelms, I didn't even take a BSB. Some very bad rolls really cost me badly but I managed to scrape a minor victory in the end. I'll post the list up for those interested in my own thread.

Thanks, I'd be interested to see it. Feel free to post a link here so people know where to go.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
someone might choose to play me thinking I'm one of the other High Elf armies

Surely your fame precedes you? This thread is already being linked on other forums!

:)

Really? Hmm.. if everyone starts reading this thread my opponent is always going to know exactly what I'm up to! Then where will I be?

Anyway, so far so incognito at the games bunker! Next time I'll walk in wearing a big viking hat with 'SEREDAIN' written on it in massive letters. See if I get any funny looks.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Next time I'll walk in wearing a big viking hat with 'SEREDAIN' written on it in massive letters. See if I get any funny looks.


Pics, or it didn't happen. :lol:

My opponents are getting sick of my Helm bus. Every game it is target priority #1. I usually get into combat with 1 or 2 Helms left, but the Prince and BSB are more than enough for the enemy unit. We even played a smaller game (just so my mates could play a game without the prince, I think) so I dropped the Prince for a noble and a GW and it worked really well. One less attack at -1 strength compared to the Prince was hardly noticed. But I did have to pick my fights as there was some tough stuff on the table (Hydra) and I didn't want to get into a fight where I was tied up for more than two turns.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:00 pm 
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I have a quick question about your Prince/BSB leadership bubble. How often are they within range of the main body of your army to provide that leadership 10 with re-roll? I am struggling to make points work to take both and it seems like the way your army works out they probably don't help the majority of your force the majority of the time. I guess my question comes to how much disadvantage is it to have a LD 9 general and really how critical is the re-roll?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:30 am 
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Ghogra,

Honestly it depends how you play it. Where you're charging your knights ahead or running them around a flank, often only they will benefit from the leadership and re-roll. This is why gleaming pennant is such a useful item on the spears. You do have the option to keep them closer to your infantry, however, where you think you'll need the leadership. That's what I did against the Daemons and it worked out nicely. In this situation in particular, Leadership 10 is brilliant. In the normal course of events, and where you expect to win all your combats, you could maybe live without it.

Fflar,

Fflar Starbrow wrote:
Pics, or it didn't happen. :lol:

Hah, no promises! Good to see your opponents feeling the fear of the bus! It's just lovely watching silver helms be awesome. :)


Chaps I'm off to America now for a couple of weeks, so expect some radio silence. Campaign Round 2 should commence upon my return, so expect another report in about 3 weeks or so.

Ciao for now.

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