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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:52 pm 
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The Cavalry Prince
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Cheers man!

I love the helm bus, chiefly because it covers my characters nicely (and cheaply) and there are enough elves there to make it more difficult to earn points off, plus it can get all its attacks off in two ranks.

Armour re-rolls vs Ward Saves

Yeah, it's a good question about the armour setups- I see a lot of people running Armour of Caledor/Guardian Phoenix in place of AoC/Dawnstone.

For me, the bottom line is which is going to be the more useful setup more often, taking account of what units you're likely to face most of the time. When it comes, for example, to fighting off enemy rank and file, the extra armour roll is certainly better: against strength 5 or under foes, AoC/Dawnstone wins with a re-rollable 4+ while Str6 attacks give you the same odds as the ward.

The Prince, with his 1+ save, will be better off with the re-roll rather than the 5+ Ward against anything except attacks of Str7 or higher (Str7 being equal odds)- obviously very uncommon.

The only things the prince really has to worry about are attacks which negate armour altogether- typically enemy magic weapons. I don't say spells because the 'no save' spells are usually either characteristic tests (which wards don't work against and against which we typically have good stats- eg vs Death and Shadow spells), or the 'no AS' attack spells, which are typically flaming (Lore of Metal) and therefore sorted by dragon armour. I also have my scroll and dispel dice to plug the gaps (it's no BotWD, but at least now I can buff my silver helms to help out). I don't say war machines, because the Prince will get a 2+ LOS save from his knights.

So, I'm only really worried about enemy magic weapons that don't allow armour saves. Defensively I don't have an easy solution to those, since I've gone for Giant Blade (so my prince can carve up stegadons and heavy knights reliably instead of by chance), rather than the Talisman of Saphery or the Vambraces . So, I've decided to rely on the Talisman of Loec to kill the enemy character before he can strike: ASF Str 7 attacks with everything re-rolled really should do the trick 9 times out of 10.

The bottom line, though, is that if you really don't want to fight an enemy character, a mounted prince can usually avoid him. What with unlimited marching in 8th, the only thing that'll reliably catch him are enemy flyers - and for them he still kicks arse as usual but also has the Plucker Pendant for the bonus 5+ ward (that's three 5+ saves against Str 7 attacks). What you can't avoid are massed attacks from other enemy units and against them, as discussed, the armour re-roll is almost always better.

Lore Choices - Life vs the Rest

I know Life Lore isn't the most original of choices, but it's a really good one for my list.

1: Elven weaknesses are their habit of taking wounds and dying easily - Life helps with these.
2: I have quite small elite units, so regrowth can make a big difference to them.
3: It's a relatively cheap lore and I don't carry the Banner of Sorcery (regretfully).
4: Throne of Vines. An awesome spell, firstly, for the miscast protection. Secondly, because it allows you to cast boosted spells without wasting further dice on them per cast and risking repeated miscasts. Thirdly (and crucially), because it effectively acts as a living dispel scroll. So far, no opponent I've faced has wanted to leave my Throne of Vines up, so they always throw a spell's worth of dice to get rid of it - making my job of dispelling much easier. This can buy me valuable time against magic-heavy armies.

Metal is a brilliant lore, but I don't have the reliable power dice to hammer it home or, since you mention it, large enough missile units to reliably benefit from Enchanted Blades (one RBT isn't the best target really - you'd usually be better off Arrow-cursing an enemy unit and throwing everything you have at it). PLus I have lots of things which eat armour- namely the repeaters, white lions and characters.

I'm tempted by Light more than any other lore for its cheapness and lovely mix of magic missiles, combat buffs and missile protection. Life tips it, though, because of Throne of Vines and because of Dwellers Below- for horde-melting and war machine dropping. Toughness and regrowth also help against missile heavy armies as well as in close combat with fighty armies. It's just a useful lore against all comers.

Thanks for the questions - hope this helps.

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Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:54 am 
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Quality post! Thanks for such thorough answers. I totally see your points on the reroll vs. ward save. <begins reviewing lists> :lol:

In your use of Life, if I may impose into your brain a bit more, do you have a method/sequence to your initial casts? For example, do you always try and get Throne in play first every turn you need to or do you try and draw out some dispel dice first? To me, it seems like so much revolves around throne that it makes me hesitate to use it. I know this may sound simplistic, but should throne not be in play do you still find life filling your army needs adequately?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:34 pm 
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First of all, fantastic list! Not only is it unique, but it also appears very effective. I have a few questions regarding the composition, starting with the Tiranoc chariot. Do you feel that this unit makes a significant impact on the game as opposed to say, bolstering the ranks of the WL/SM units or taking another eagle and something else? Ive never had any luck with chariots, as they always seem to get destroyed before they can do anything useful. Also, without Banner of Sorcery or any other power dice augmentation, do you find yourself getting enough dice to recast throne as well as sling some useful buffs each turn? With all the bonus dispel items other mages can take it seems like this is a dicey proposition. Finally, your units of WL/SM are very small, is there a tactical reason for this or was it simply a lack of points to fill them out? Small units like this usually just get peppered by missile/warmachine fire until theres not much left. I know WLs have their cloak to help with missiles, but with only 14 seems like they'd lose a lot of combat effectiveness before they reach the battle.

Thanks in advance, and again, I'm very impressed with this list. Finally something to do with the silver helms on my shelf lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:43 pm 
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jdswade wrote:
Ive never had any luck with chariots, as they always seem to get destroyed before they can do anything useful.

jdswade wrote:
Small units like this usually just get peppered by missile/warmachine fire until theres not much left.

I'd guess the theory is that the other guy can't shoot everything and with the Helmstar and the DP's racing towards him, these may be the priority targets.

Of course Seredain may have other ideas...

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Hey, great talk and I really like reading a person's posts who can back up their claims with battle reports.

Why haven't you gone for shadow instead of life? I normally play lizardmen but my high elf army is almost done (no games yet) but I just got rocked by a Dark Elf player with lore of shadow. I can see how life offsets your inevitable losses to shooting, but it's very defensive. I feel like shadow is it's foil and I wonder if you've tried it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:46 am 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
Quality post! Thanks for such thorough answers. I totally see your points on the reroll vs. ward save. <begins reviewing lists> :lol:

In your use of Life, if I may impose into your brain a bit more, do you have a method/sequence to your initial casts? For example, do you always try and get Throne in play first every turn you need to or do you try and draw out some dispel dice first? To me, it seems like so much revolves around throne that it makes me hesitate to use it. I know this may sound simplistic, but should throne not be in play do you still find life filling your army needs adequately?

Thanks! So, let's get to it.

Life and Throne of Vines

The way you deploy your dice really depends on what you're trying to do. Some of the time, Life spells get along just fine without Throne: against Str3 massed shooting/combat attacks, +2 toughness will be as good as +4. Against weak scouts, fast cav etc or units in woods, Awakening doesn't need to be Str6 to do damage. Dwellers itself (miscasts aside) obviously doesn't need Throne at all. For these spells in particular you can use Throne to draw dispel dice before getting them through, if they strike you as important enough in the moment.

If I've got the first turn and I'm seriously keen to get the hop on the other guy's magic phase in the early turns (and have nothing to regenerate yet etc), sometimes I've just chucked 6 dice at Throne and hoped for an IF. Otherwise, you might just want to take a more typical approach: pick a good target for your first spell as per the above, hope your opponent throws dispel dice at it and follow up with Throne.

In respect of its boosting abilities, Throne will typically be more important in the later turns when you'll need more toughness and regen for the big close combats and when tougher targets start coming in range of Awakening. At this point your opponent may well be keener to dispel it. To get the best use out of it in these instances, you really have to cast it first so all spells get the bonus. Remember Dwellers, however. You and your opponent know that, if he throws dispel dice at Throne, he'll have fewer dice to tackle Dwellers... If this fear prevents him from dispelling Throne, you can go ahead and enjoy your improved buffs. If he dispels Throne after all, he has fewer dispel dice and you can punish him by chucking a load of dice at Dwellers.

All the above obviously depends on how many power dice you get and when.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Why haven't you gone for shadow instead of life?
Basically because Life has miscast protection and I only have one caster. It also, as discussed above, compliments my particular list really well.

SpellArcher wrote:
jdswade wrote:
Ive never had any luck with chariots, as they always seem to get destroyed before they can do anything useful.

jdswade wrote:
Small units like this usually just get peppered by missile/warmachine fire until theres not much left.

I'd guess the theory is that the other guy can't shoot everything and with the Helmstar and the DP's racing towards him, these may be the priority targets.

Of course Seredain may have other ideas...

:)

I do! But yes, target priority is a big deal. Against really shooty armies where I have to be aggressive, the chariot provides extra target saturation. I imagine most empire cannons (like the last one) would find it hard to resist. Still, if they're shooting the chariot they're not shooting my other units (and vice versa).

The other points all revolve around flexibility and unit combination.

The Chariot

Depending on what army you're facing, the chariot can do a bunch of different things. It can cast an exclusion zone around your shooters or flanks; it can prevent scout deployment; it can combo charge with other units and tip the balance; it can make a second or third turn flank/rear charge to pile in the combat res on a unit already weakened; it can clear fast cavalry; it can take a cannon ball to the face for your knights (and can survive with 4 wounds); it can be a roadblock for a deathstar... It's just so versatile I can't bear to lose it.

Small Elite Units and Unit Combinations

Apart from the fact that I can regen them, these follow all the above principles. If your army has a big block of white lions, it's a priority target. 12 White Lions or 14 swordmasters are often ignored in the face of the helm bus (which I love - each knight is harder to kill but individually less important) and surprisingly often, the 35 spearelf block- a template magnate. By contrast a small thin unit like 12 White Lions is less threatening and much harder to hit with templates. Shooting from crossbows etc hasn't been a problem so far, since they're target number one for my archers and repeaters.

More importantly, points I haven't spent on more elites can be spent on units which not only provide other targets but which complement the elites very well. I'll give you an example of a fight which happened to me recently to demonstrate the usefulness of unit combinations over single big blocks.

My 12 White Lions are facing 3 Kroxigor surrounded by a large cohort of skinks. Now, 25 White Lions would happily grind through that in a turn or two, but I haven't got 25 and I want to crack them in one. So, my repeaters and one archer unit fire a volly and bring down a load of skinks. The cohort now has only 3 ranks. The following turn my White Lions charge in together with my chariot: one half of the combo providing high-strength attacks to bring down the tough beasts, the other dumping a load of lower-strength attacks to make up for the fact that the lions only have 1 attack each. Every lion fights in 2 ranks and earns his points. The chariot, impact hits distributed like shooting, clears 6 or so skinks, who lose steadfast. The lions focus on the kroxigor, killing all 3, and the cohort is crushed and flees. The Lions don't want to pursue - there's a saurus block close by and they don't want to be flank charged. Here a single big lion block would have to make an either/or choice. Operating together, the 12 lions and chariot do not.

The lions stand and reform to an angle so that, if the saurus charge, they'll be flank-charged by the helms. The chariot goes on to run down the remaining skinks. The repeaters, meanwhile, have other fish to fry and reach out to weaken the enemy in another impending combat (swordmasters vs more saurus), as chosen by me. I effectively teleport a load of points from one combat (WLs) to another (SMs) in the blink of an eye.

Unit Combination - mini Conclusion

The point is that, just because you haven't spent more points on more white lions, it doesn't mean you can't use points spent on other units for securing victories for your white lion unit. Once a combat is won you can either rinse and repeat (softening fire, chariot/lion charge, regen on lions), or allow your points to go off and form other combinations with other combat units depending on the circumstances (this is also why I like cavalry characters- they're re-deployable). Against different enemy armies I can change my unit combinations in deployment to suit my needs and pick on their weaknesses, because I have several units with different strengths and lots of different kinds of attack. All this brought together can bring a High Elf list a level of flexibility which a few big infantry blocks simply wouldn't allow.

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Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:56 am 
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I'm thinking about splitting up my elite units because of just that. However, I really want to wipe something out the turn I charge in. I also want to have ranks.

I dunno, I'll have to play test. Lizardmen like units of 30 and I'm sure high elves are the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:26 am 
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Very good analysis, and a clear, concise answer Seredain. Your explanation provided me with great insight into army building, and an appreciation for the importance of tactics over brute force when high elves are concerned. I have one other question for you about your cavalry prince. Have you ever thought about taking the radient gem of hoeth? The level 1 casting might not seem like much, but with the base spell miasma, the prince could soften units up, as well as set large enemy blocks up for a massive dwellers from the AM by lowering their strength. Its a lot of fun to drop a unit of chaos warrior's strength to 1 and then watch them incinerated by your Archmage. Regardless of what spell you get from the roll it seems like it would be useful.

Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:06 am 
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You, Sir, are one to be reckoned with. Really appreciate your time in making these great responses!
Seredain wrote:
The lions focus on the kroxigor, killing all 3, and the cohort is crushed and flees.

Was this in an 8th edition game? If the front rank of the mixed unit was skinks, I don't think the lions can target the Krox anymore. My reasoning comes from the removal of the Great Reach rule from the FAQ to the Lizardmen army book. That rule is what allowed them to make attacks (and be attacked) from the second rank under 7th. In 8th, that rule is ignored per the FAQ since this edition now allows supporting attacks (including up to 3 from supporting monstrous infantry). After a quick glance in the BRB, I couldn't find anything that says you can choose to attack monstrous support in a mixed unit. This change is what has made that unit more viable this edition, in my opinion.

I would love to hear examples, if you have any, about your deployment options of the mounted characters. Do you mean just between your cav units or do you ever deploy them with infantry? Thanks again!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Thanks for the kind comments everyone.

Bolt Thrower wrote:
If the front rank of the mixed unit was skinks, I don't think the lions can target the Krox anymore. My reasoning comes from the removal of the Great Reach rule from the FAQ to the Lizardmen army book. That rule is what allowed them to make attacks (and be attacked) from the second rank under 7th. In 8th, that rule is ignored per the FAQ since this edition now allows supporting attacks (including up to 3 from supporting monstrous infantry). After a quick glance in the BRB, I couldn't find anything that says you can choose to attack monstrous support in a mixed unit. This change is what has made that unit more viable this edition, in my opinion.

Thanks- that's an important change to recognise! The above was actually from my 2nd game in 8th a few months ago (while still using a Lvl4, Lvl2 & BsB setup). The Lizardman player had no idea about that FAQ! In future, then, I'll take on the cohort with the spears and chariot instead: the kroxigor don't have the damage-dealing ability to counter the pain that spears put on skinks and the chariot, on the edge so unreachable by the Krox, would tip the balance in the charge/counter charge as usual. I can use the missile fire and white lions to go off and gang up on something else, maybe in conjunction with the DPs.

The above still stands as a useful example, however- just imagine that I was fighting a typical infantry block. Or indeed talking about that impending swordmaster combat, where the RBTs softened up the Temple Guard before they were charged by the swords (with infantry BsB) from the front and an eagle from the rear. All the remaining TG's died (there were 18 to start with I think), the swords reformed and the eagle ran down the (slowly) fleeing Slann.

Bolt Thrower wrote:
I would love to hear examples, if you have any, about your deployment options of the mounted characters. Do you mean just between your cav units or do you ever deploy them with infantry? Thanks again!

Deploying Cavalry Characters

If in doubt, always deploy cavalry characters with cavalry on turn one unless you're happy to hide them out of sight, just to make sure they get a LOS save. You can move them to other units when the coast is clear. Against enemies without war machines, though, I'd happily deploy them with the infantry from Turn 1 and this presents you with options for really tricky deployment. Place your 8 helms on a far flank. Your opponent will assume the characters are going with them and will counter with a powerful unit of his own (or 2 or 3). Laugh, then, as you deploy your characters on the far side of the board with your infantry.

Against shooty opponents, though, they're better off with the silver helms - who are basically there for the characters' protection. Bomb them forward and run through a target or two. Then the cavalry characters can re-deploy out and run after targets of their own or get involved in some other combats with the infantry while the helms run clean-up duty or something. The bottom line: always remember that your characters are effectively individual, separate units. They can ride with company if they want (and should do initially), but nothing prevents them from acting independently when the time comes. Remember this and their speed (basically always marching 16" even with enemy close), becomes a real asset. Infantry characters have to stay with units or get stranded in the open: cavalry characters have the run of the board. They can therefore get involved in more important combats and earn more points.

jdswade wrote:
I have one other question for you about your cavalry prince. Have you ever thought about taking the radient gem of hoeth? The level 1 casting might not seem like much, but with the base spell miasma, the prince could soften units up, as well as set large enemy blocks up for a massive dwellers from the AM by lowering their strength. Its a lot of fun to drop a unit of chaos warrior's strength to 1 and then watch them incinerated by your Archmage. Regardless of what spell you get from the roll it seems like it would be useful.

Radiant Gem is an excellent item for the prince. Lots of people use Death for him and Shadow could work well too: combining with Dwellers is a good plan if you get the right spell. I wouldn't choose it for my army simply because I want a prince who's a dedicated combat badass - strength 7 is hard to come by in elf lists and it's really useful. I also don't want both of my expensive characters potentially vulnerable to miscasts. Further, if I took the Radiant Prince I'd really need to take Banner of Sorcery to get the most out of him and I just don't have the points in this list. My magic phase is cheap on the basis that it can provide decent defence, decent attack but if the AM blows up (and in any list he will every now and then), it won't matter that much.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
I'm thinking about splitting up my elite units because of just that. However, I really want to wipe something out the turn I charge in. I also want to have ranks.

High Elf Ranks and Hordes

You do have ranks! You have spearelves. There's nothing stopping you from combo-charging an enemy horde with a small elite unit and a large column of spears (and spears tend to be good against the kind of troops which usually form units of 40). Since a chariot only needs to get a corner in base contact, you can throw him in too. Or you can flank with a unit of knights. Remember that hordes have that very wide frontage, giving you ample opportunity to combo-charge them easily (to prevent them reforming and avoiding your combo of death, try parking an eagle right behind them). The elites bring the kills and the spears bring enough ranks to break steadfast as cheaply as a High Elf army can manage.

However, if you get enough killy units into the front of the 30-man hordes, you won't even need all those ranks: do a dice test and see what a combined charge from the helm bus (inc Prince and BsB), 12 lions and chariot does to a Black Orc horde of 29 with Lord character. On average the BO Lord (challenged by Prince) and between 16 and 18 of his henchmen will be dead in one turn. Those orcs only have one rank left, aren't going to make enough kills back and are definitely breaking.

The point is that you don't necessarily need hordes of your own to steamroll opponents- just a selection of units that can combine together when needed but have the freedom to go their separate ways when not. There's no denying that 30 White Lions is an incredibly powerful unit (one of the most powerful infantry units in the game, probably). You'll just have to accept that it can't be everywhere at once and will be very vulnerable to template weapons and anti-deathstar spells.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
The point is that you don't necessarily need hordes of your own to steamroll opponents- just a selection of units that can combine together when needed but have the freedom to go their separate ways when not.

This is why I love High Elves!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Exactly! Me too.

=D>

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:02 am 
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Thank you Seredain for one of the most complete and comprehensive army list/post I have seen. You have an excellent understanding of what you want to achieve with your army and how to achieve it.
I would defiantly advise any High elf player to read this thread as the best way to understand the Best way to use High Elves, I don't necessarily agree with the army you picked but do agree with way you use it and the tactics that optimise the best use of High Elf Army.
Combination of force is key for the high elf army and you have demonstrated that really well with your tactical analyses =D> =D>

in short like your post and army :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:41 am 
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Thank you, that's very kind.

Hopefully I'll get some photos of my next battle up- need to get some reports rocking. It's almost like every battle I play takes me by surprise and I have no camera!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Having read through everything you've said i'm giving the list a run. (couple of friendly games this weekend.

Thanks for posting such an in depth and awesome list. I think i'll enjoy trying this (damn southcoast GT rules banning my beloved eltharion!!!!)

I'll let you know how i get on with it and if i have any tweaks i'd make


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Eldria, you're welcome - thanks for the sentiment. And also for the offer of tweaks: all comments welcome. I myself pretty much haven't stopped trying to change little things the whole time. I've found a little review after each game really helpful.

List Update - The Amulet of Light

My latest thinking is that, one day, I'll find that an all-comers list really needs magical attacks- and I won't have them. I can't necessarily rely on the archmage to do all the magical damage with Life lore and the prince can't be everywhere with his sword. So, I'm replacing the Ironcurse Icon with the Amulet of Light, losing the Silver Helm standard to find the points.

I'm having a little debate over where to put it, but I've plumped for the BsB on the basis that, as a character, he'll deploy after any ethereal units- allowing me to respond to them directly and provide an easy counter. And he can obviously provide any of my units with magical attacks- giving a little more flexibility to the list- and is much harder to kill than unit champs. I'm not 100% on this yet, though. I may put the amulet on the swordmasters and leave the icon on the BsB to protect the knights...

In any case, as things stand, ethereals and Folariath/ToS Archmages (very common if Ulthuan.net is anything to go by), no longer hold any fears for me. In fact think it's the prospect of assassinating archmages that has finally tipped the balance in favour of putting the amulet on the BsB... We'll see.

It's up to you what you want to spend the spare 6 points on - I've gone for a musician on the White Lions (I've often run them alongside the helms so, in these instances, they'll be passing their free reform tests reliably). But you could put the Ironcurse Icon somewhere else if you wanted.

Anyway, the list currently stands as follows:


Prince- Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec - 286
Lvl 4 Archmage - Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life - 280
BsB- Barded Steed, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light - 190

35 Spearelves- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant - 345
13 Archers, Musician - 148 (Archmage here)
12 Archers - 132

14 Swordmasters- Bladelord - 222
12 White Lions- Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame - 220
8 Silver Helms- Musician, Shields - 192 (Prince and BsB here)
5 Dragon Princes - 150
1 Tiranoc Chariot - 85

2 RBTs - 200
1 Eagle - 50

= 2500 points

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:16 am 
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Just a quick word of thanks for the inspiration to use the Silver helms.

Have used a couple of times with a RGOH noble, and they have done very well for me.

Snipped of a few enemy casters and tied up a few big blocks long enough for me to get rid of other threats then counter charge to support. If there are any left that is.

Only negative i find with them is i can not give a Magical banner. Not that i want to give them anything to big, but would like the option.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:31 am 
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Hi Seredain, would you keep the full bus setup intact for a 1500 point list?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:58 pm 
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This is quite a different approach to what I have taken with high elves so far in eighth. I quite like it actually. I have a list posted on here that is more or less two horde blocks of elite infantry with archmage support and a pair of eagles. I had good success with it at a mini 3 game tournament at the chicago battle bunker that used the adepticon rules. This list does look a bit more interesting though, and I could see my list having major problems with some of the support unit heavy lizard lists you trounced with your cav list. I also think you make a good point about multiple small units having more flexibility than horde blocks while retaining most of the punch via ability to combo charge.

One thing multiple small units doesn't have is the points denial aspect of the horde blocks though. In multiple games I have had my infantry killed left and right and yet given up no points whatsoever due to simply having too many models to kill off. My question would then be do the advantages of having more flexibility outweigh the points denial aspects of a horde focused list. I think they might due to my experience of not getting full points off of my opponents in several games due to only being able to attack a few target at once. In any case I think this is a pretty brilliant list that defies most of the eight edition conventions I've seen so far. I can definitely see this approach not only working but also being more rewarding than horde-hammer in terms of its breadth of tactical possibilities.

This said, I am also playing 2200 points currently in preparation for adepticon, so I would not be able to fit all of the small support units you have in your list. Do you think that 2200 points would be enough to run such a list? and if so what exactly would you drop? I'm pretty interested in trying this approach and so I will write up what I might include in a paired down version of this list. I will try the list with both msu and horde white lions and see how the two styles compare. I'll also try the list with shadow magic first as this is what I am more familiar with, but will also try life at some point in time. I'll let you know how it goes. If you or others could give me some feedback on the list before I take it into battle that would be awesome.

Lords: 546

Prince on Barded Elven Steed, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Loec, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Dragon Armour, Shield

Archmage, Magic Level 4, Shadow Magic

Heroes: 190

Noble on Barded Elven Steed, Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone, Amulet of Light, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Shield

Core: 555

10 Archers
10 Archers
35 Spearmen, Banner, Musician, Gleaming Pendant

Special: 658

8 Silver Helms, Banner, Musician
12 White Lions, Banner, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
12 White Lions, Banner Musician, Banner of Sorcery

Rare: 250

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Cheers guys.

akielzather wrote:
Just a quick word of thanks for the inspiration to use the Silver helms.

Have used a couple of times with a RGOH noble, and they have done very well for me.

Snipped of a few enemy casters and tied up a few big blocks long enough for me to get rid of other threats then counter charge to support. If there are any left that is.

Only negative i find with them is i can not give a Magical banner. Not that i want to give them anything to big, but would like the option.

No probs!

Yeah the lack of a magic banner is a big minus-point. Still, keeps 'em cheap I suppose. I really like your RGoH bus - a great use for them and one I'd be interested in trying out.

AlexCrute wrote:
Hi Seredain, would you keep the full bus setup intact for a 1500 point list?

You couldn't keep the bus exactly as it is at 1500 - it's just too expensive. For me the bus was originally conceived as a bodyguard for the Prince- whom you'd probably be ill-advised to take in such a small army. In any case, Silver Helms are there to ride in numbers with characters- probably a noble at 1500- and the ultimate decision would come down to whether you want a mounted noble in an army that size. I haven't thought about it in detail, to be honest.

Cythis wrote:
One thing multiple small units doesn't have is the points denial aspect of the horde blocks though. In multiple games I have had my infantry killed left and right and yet given up no points whatsoever due to simply having too many models to kill off.

This is, by and large, true. However the saving grace in this list, other than the deployment options, combo-charges etc, is firstly that the knights and fighting characters are themselves hard to kill and, secondly, that Lore of Life helps maintain the strength of the small elites- who need it to lose fewer models and be regen'd to full strength. If you go with Shadow your spears, harassment and shooting would be better, but your hardcore fighters will be more vulnerable to protracted combats- an unavoidable problem for small elven units.

Cythis wrote:
This said, I am also playing 2200 points currently in preparation for adepticon, so I would not be able to fit all of the small support units you have in your list. Do you think that 2200 points would be enough to run such a list? and if so what exactly would you drop? I'm pretty interested in trying this approach and so I will write up what I might include in a paired down version of this list. I will try the list with both msu and horde white lions and see how the two styles compare. I'll also try the list with shadow magic first as this is what I am more familiar with, but will also try life at some point in time. I'll let you know how it goes. If you or others could give me some feedback on the list before I take it into battle that would be awesome.

I'll think on it a little more- I'm not sure what I'd drop at this stage- but I reckon Lore of Life is your Lore of choice here. You might struggle against horde armies unless you're able to replace your small number of knights and white lions when they're damaged, and Dwellers will help enormously. You're relying heavily on the Helm Bus to work for you here- make sure you crush what it charges. If it's going to take a couple of turns, cover flanks with the white lions.

I think you'd also do well taking the Skeinsliver in this particular list. You have a few, small, expensive units since you've spent a lot in characters for a 2200 list and you've taken war machines. Getting the first turn will give your repeaters the chance to critically damage enemy support units before applying themselves to helping out against the first target chosen by the Bus. It'll also help if you need to rush gunlines with the cavalry.

Honestly, as things stand I probably wouldn't take all the characters at 2200, but I'll have a think on it... I can spend a dangerous amount of time struggling with getting a list exactly how I like it- changing points values all the time would give me a hernia!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am 
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Sensational write up Seredain, this really deserves to be stickied I think for all to see.

Just a question for you on tackling a steam tank with your list, have you had the chance to face one as yet?

Secondly in your eyes what are the biggest weaknesses of your list besides the vulnerable Archmage?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:25 pm 
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This really is an awsome post. I was actually working on a SH bus list for 2000 pts including your Giant Blade wielding prince when I saw your post. Here I thought I had an original or different type of army. Well, I guess there is nothing new under the sun. You stole my thunder. =D> Any way my list at 2000 is a bit different obviously because of the points allowed. I am curious as to your thoughts and others thoughts on the list.

Prince- barded steed, DA, shield, Giant Blade and Helm of Fortune 271
BSB- barded steed, DA, shield, RGoH and luckstone (whatever the re-roll one armour save is) 184
I plan on using either Death magic to snipe, but also am considering Beasts for the +1s and +1T for the unit.
Mage- 2nd silver wand and Amulet of Light with lore of life. 160
He will go with my archer unit. With their banner they can take out regen creatures and also ethreals.

20 archers full command Burning Standard 255
The plan here is to use them on a flank and I can move them forward as needed and maybe later in the game become a support combat unit if needed.
25 Spearment-full command 250

8- Silver helms shields with full command 224
14-Swordmasters with Bladelord 222
10- White Lions 150
6- Shadow warriors 96
1- Tiranoc Chariot 85

2-Great Eagles 100

1997

My plan here is to use the shadow warriors and eagles to take out the war machines or mages as soon as possible. The chariot and the small elite units will act as support for the spearmen and the silver helms. With the archers piling in later if needed. So, what do you think?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Jimmy wrote:
in your eyes what are the biggest weaknesses of your list besides the vulnerable Archmage?

Jimmy that's a good question. A few things spring to mind which I'd describe as potential problems you need to watch out for:


Tactical Problems Facing the Cavalry Prince List

1: Multiple protracted combats with multiple enemy hordes

Simply put this list is not designed to march forward unit to unit: it's meant to take board dominance in the early turns by crushing a few exposed units with missile fire and the cavalry (support units, smaller blocks, weapons teams) before combo-steaming the core blocks of the enemy army. It certainly has a defensive element, but you can't match this list up unit-on-unit against a line of enemy hordes and expect to do well- rather you need to combine your various tools to crush one or two units at a time. If you deploy in the centre and just don't combine your forces well, expect to be overrun. This means you need to be making good tactical choices from the beginning - especially in deployment. The list probably requires, therefore, a degree more concentration than a big infantry-only list.

The List can probably handle a fair few protracted combats (one with the spears, one with an elite infantry unit as long as Life is helping out and one with the Prince, who'll stay there all day with the BsB nearby), but try to keep it to one at a time. That's what spears are for. The prince can take on a horde all by himself with the BsB nearby, but I've only done this so as to set up a charge with the helms+BsB on the following turn. Don't allow yourself to be flank-charged with this list because you probably won't be steadfast (although the white lion detachment and high leadership help here).

The bottom line is that, in small numbers, elven infantry do not make very good defensive units against enemy in numbers. This list has to compensate for that basic truth.

2: Combo-Charging- The Dangers

A decisive charge is not my only option against massive blocks since with the spears, elites+Life and tank characters I'm happy to hack away for a turn or two to get a flank charge as discussed above. Since the list isn't designed around protracted hacking, however, a decisive combo-charge is one of the best ways for me to smash an enemy 'money unit'- often a horde- which we're normally quite scared of facing (please see the Black Orc horde example I used above).

The problem is that charges are randomised and may go awry. If you're relying on a combo charge to smash an enemy horde in one or two turns, you need to make sure that every charge you declare hits home. If I point my Helm bus, chariot and swordmasters at 40 marauders with great weapons and only the knights and chariot hit home, then the charge simply won't work very well- I'm looking at a lot of dead knights and a dead chariot. If I get everything in, those marauders are toast and I lose very few models. A couple of tips here:

a: Try and outpace your proposed victim. When setting up a charge, you could use all three of your fast units against an infantry-speed opponent. This allows you to get close enough and make a successful charge next turn more-or-less a certainty, without putting your units in danger of a successful charge from him. You can't rely on your cavalry getting a charge on his cavalry- a 1" advantage is not a big one- so point them at slower targets unless you're confident that you can receive a charge from cavalry and win (the bus can with the characters, the dragon princes cannot).

b: If you feel you need to include one of your infantry units in a combo-charge against enemy infantry, ensure that your infantry are close enough to hit home. This will potentially leave you vulnerable to a charge by him - cover that. Use the eagle as a road-block and limit the enemy unit to an overrun move on his turn. If the eagle's gone, you could always tank it with the prince and get a round of killing in (they won't wound him and, with the BsB behind him, he won't run) and then follow up with the knights, chariot and swords the following turn. Alternatively, sit within maximum charge distance and encourage him to attempt a charge that'll probably fail, then countercharge.

The basic rule here is that you should plan for failed charges and encourage failed charges from him.

3: Magic Phase- The Banner of Sorcery

I don't have it and I wish I did. It makes the High Elf magic phase superb and I reeeally wish I had the points. Having said that, I'm unwilling to lose any troops for it so I suppose I'll get along.

4: The Vulnerable Archmage

Technically, this guy is vulnerable indeed. To be honest, though, I haven't found this to be a problem since the list is good at taking out those enemy units which could threaten him early. Life is also a helpful choice since it can toughen his unit up if it looks like it's facing tough times. I also tend to shelter the archmage and his unit behind my elites (where he's needed for support), who provide an excellent fighty shield for him.

5: Blood and Glory

I don't have many standards, so the army is fragile in this scenario. On the plus side, the general and BsB are both hard to kill and I have plenty of powerful units which I can throw into the fight without worrying about losing standards. It just means I have to shelter the ones I do have. In this scenario I'd have to commit whole-heartedly to any attack led by my Prince, though I tend to do that anyway. :)

6: My Army Book Knowledge!

It can be pretty poor when it comes to armies I haven't played much against! I have never, for example, faced a steamtank in 8th. I'd probably try and skewer it with the repeaters to immobilise it and then concentrate on destroying everything else. I also suppose that Dwellers Below will automatically sink it, since it doesn't have a Str characteristic. Skaven hold too many secrets for me, at this stage, though I've got the basics down and reckon I can handle them in principle.

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Last edited by Seredain on Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Delaqure wrote:
Army List...

Delaqure I've placed my comments in your army list thread. For readers here I'll say that, if you're looking to scale down from 2500 points and feel you have to lose the repeaters, I reckon shadow warriors could be a nice unit to pick up some of the support slack. Certainly they're better for war machine harassment and that's a very good thing- because a Silver Helm bus with Prince and BsB is going to be that much more of a target in smaller games.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:27 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Delaqure I've placed my comments in your army list thread. For readers here I'll say that, if you're looking to scale down from 2500 points and feel you have to lose the repeaters, I reckon shadow warriors could be a nice unit to pick up some of the support slack. Certainly they're better for war machine harassment and that's a very good thing- because a Silver Helm bus with Prince and BsB is going to be that much more of a target in smaller games.


I used my silver helms against an empire list with 3 cannons, granted i got lucky but my opponent took one look at the helms and laughed, ignored them and went for the bolt throwers to protect his knights.

If it was a choice between RBT and a unit of shadow warriors, it would be the RBt every time for me. I have eagles for enemy war machines and against any army with heavy hitting cavalry 1-2 RBT is a great equalizer. Especially if you can get him to show his side!!.

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8th 2013 Tournie 7th Ed book P17 W9 D2 L6
Totals P29 W17 D2 L10

Characters.
Calidiane - Captian of the Silver Helms of Saphery. Death Knight of Hoeth.
Maulinerine - Archmage of Life.
Kavineer - Battle-standard Bearer


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:01 pm 
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akielzather wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Delaqure I've placed my comments in your army list thread. For readers here I'll say that, if you're looking to scale down from 2500 points and feel you have to lose the repeaters, I reckon shadow warriors could be a nice unit to pick up some of the support slack. Certainly they're better for war machine harassment and that's a very good thing- because a Silver Helm bus with Prince and BsB is going to be that much more of a target in smaller games.


I used my silver helms against an empire list with 3 cannons, granted i got lucky but my opponent took one look at the helms and laughed, ignored them and went for the bolt throwers to protect his knights.

If it was a choice between RBT and a unit of shadow warriors, it would be the RBt every time for me. I have eagles for enemy war machines and against any army with heavy hitting cavalry 1-2 RBT is a great equalizer. Especially if you can get him to show his side!!.

Haha, I hope he learned his lesson!

Personally I'd find it very difficult to let go of my repeaters (for all the reasons I set out on page1). Even one would add punch to the archers, though honestly I've only ever used them in pairs or threes at 2000 points and above. Luckily I'm settled at 2500 and don't have to worry about taking points out of the list (reckon I like it as is), though I can see a unit of shadow warriors acting as a nice little wingman unit for a cavalry tank looking to close in on an army stuffed with war machines.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:03 am 
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I use chariots often and they are strong in list where the enemy has to decide between shooting at other fast threatens like dragons and knights. In a infantry heavy army the chariot is an obvious choice to shoot down in the first 2 turns.

I think silver helms with characters bare DPs and chariots go together very well...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Agreed. I really enjoy the combo for an offensive flank- especially vs shooty armies.

Quite often, however, I have the DP's deployed on other side of the board from my helms and chariot. Keeps your opponent guessing as to your deployment and allows the DPs to either run interference (often) or bomb it over to the prince's flank (less often), leaving the opposing enemy stranded. In particular, deploying your cavalry separately can make an opponent nervous as to where you're putting your characters. You never know when I might come over all crazy and dump both of them with the DPs- and there you were deploying your steadfast units opposite the helms...

The beautiful thing about the tiranoc (other than speed) is that, if you do have to throw it away, you won't lose any sleep over it. A lovely unit. One of the only ones we get cheap!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Quote:
3: Magic Phase- The Banner of Sorcery

I don't have it and I wish I did. It makes the High Elf magic phase superb and I reeeally wish I had the points. Having said that, I'm unwilling to lose any troops for it so I suppose I'll get along.



Seredain you wouldn't entertain the idea of dropping a rank off the spearelves to fit the banner in somehow? In saying that have you ever lost the spear elf unit in a game or how close have you come to losing them? I know a lot of people tend to ignore them as they're only strength 3 however it's the volume of attacks that help them take te enemy down.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
The beautiful thing about the tiranoc (other than speed) is that, if you do have to throw it away, you won't lose any sleep over it.

I've found this with chariot-mounted characters. Opponents fixate on killing the 85pt chariot, not the far more expensive passenger.

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