Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:52 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 am
Posts: 7
I really enjoy playing all-comer lists and therefore I concentrate on building lists that can play against a large variety of units. So, I spent some time analyzing the strengths and roles of the High Elf units (excluding characters) and I came up with what I think is a nice diagram to show their roles. My intent is for this diagram to help me make sure that I have covered the possibilities of whatever might show up in the next battle. There are likely some values that may not be perfect, so, I hope this will invigorate discussion about the roles of the units.

Link to PDF v2.0 -> http://www.listhammer.com/images/HE-Units-Overview-Infographic_2.0.pdf

Image
Image

I did a similar thing for Wood Elves -> http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&p=347407#p347407

Overall High Elf units seem more units that are versatile and less specialized. How do you see perceive this versatility in your battles?

----------------------------------------------
Version Control

Link to PDF v1.0 -> http://www.listhammer.com/images/HE-Units-Overview-Infographic.pdf
Link to PG v1.0 -> http://www.listhammer.com/images/HE-Units-Overview-Infographic-web.jpg


Last edited by jgibz on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:11 am
Posts: 246
Nice work. I know it's a lot to ask, but I'd love to see the bar chart style breakdowns for each unit, like you did for the Wood Elves.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 am
Posts: 7
I have uploaded a new version to incorporate the individual statistics for each unit.

It seems like White Lion Chariots and Lothern Skycutters are the most versatile units for High Elves. How do you see them being used in your armies?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:50 am 
Offline
Southern Sentinel
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:01 am
Posts: 4474
Location: On the path of an outcast
Hi jgibz,

It is a very interesting representation. I wonder if you could give some details on how do you define each role and how did you assess each unit skills in that context? I think it would help a lot to understand the graphic and how to draw conclusions from it.

Thanks!

_________________
Image

Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations

Rabidnid wrote:
Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 am
Posts: 7
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I wonder if you could give some details on how do you define each role and how did you assess each unit skills in that context?


Those are some great questions. I hope to provide an adequate response and the receive feedback from the community to improve that response.

Roles

Hammer - A unit that can do a large amount of damage to a enemy block unit in a single round of combat.
Anvil - A unit that can take a large amount of damage and is resistant to fleeing.
Monster Killing - A unit that can kill large, multi-wound creates easily or easily beat them through static combat resolution. (How am I going to kill the enemy Treeman?)
Anti-Armor - A unit that can cause a heavily armored unit to lose models. (How am I going to kill the enemy Chaos Knights?)
Ranged – A unit that can do damage from a distance.
Close Combat Support - A unit that is able to easily position itself to get into the flanks or rear of engaged enemy units to help friendly units. This role is similar to a hammer, but may typically doesn't do as much damage. This role is typical in a Multiple Small Unit (MSU) play style and the core tenant of detachments.
Warmachines/Chaff - A unit that is good a removing enemy chaff (chaff being fast units and/or units designed to harass or slow down the opposing army) and warmachines. (How am I going to deal with the enemy Gyrocopter?)
Redirection/Modifying Movement - A unit that can either a) encourage enemy units to go where you want them to (typically away from your large blocks) or b) slow down enemy units that you need time to prepare for or soften up with shooting. (How am I going to deal with that 60+ unit of Skaven Slaves that is going to tie up my Dragon Princes?)

I evaluate these roles based on the individual army book, not across armies. Therefore, I ask myself, how well does this unit perform, in its best formation (i.e., size and upgrades), this role compared to the other possible units that I could take?

What other roles do you see in your lists? How would you change these definitions?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:20 pm
Posts: 28
Hi jgibz,

I'm intrigued by your graphics (both here and on Asrai.org), but I wonder if your evaluations are simply subjective or if they come from a pure combination of values (ie statline, formations allowed/reccomended, special rules that affect their funcioning, etc...)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 am
Posts: 7
That is an interesting thought. I have been creating these subjectively, but there is likely some sort of algorithm that I could create to calculate a unit's effectiveness at a certain role. It could be based on stats, price, weapons available, and such. Interesting idea. I am not sure how to quantify special rules, what are your thoughts on measuring things like that?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:41 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Ontario, Canada
This is awesome! I got into the habit of using an excel spreadsheet when creating my army lists for "questions" and "answers" (Q: How to deal with "x" - A: With "y") for all-comers lists based on the armies that I regularly play against - making sure I always have 2 "answers" for certain threats. I'll make sure to reference this next time I make a list as well.

It would be really interesting to define the stats numerically somehow as to compare between army books, especially with EoT armies. Figuring out an algorithm would be awesome.

Maybe the easiest way to do it would be to assign numerical values to stats and special abilities then divide that by points per model...loosely similarly to the idea of calculating Swedish Comp score. Of course this would still be subjective to your "value" of a special rule - but it would be consistent between all models so it would still be good comparison tool - which seems like the idea to me.

Such as - "Hammer Score" = ((A*3) + STR + (WS/2) + (I/2) + ((M+7[9 if swiftstride])/4) + (3(+1 if WS>4))[for ASF] + (-3) [for ASL] +3[ability to take magic standard] +1(+2 if base size<25mm) / Points Per Model).
p.s. pulling numbers out of thin air here...I'll leave the figur'in out to people much smarter than me.

Things like leadership would be weighted heavily in the Anvil score but won't even be included the Hammer calculation. Same with Movement - perhaps higher movement value is better for the hammer score due to charge range, but not as important for Anvil units - but still needs to be in the equation for positioning. Support score would be hugely affected my Movement characteristic though. Then rules such as FHP where they give -1 Strength and ASL to opponent, they would add +1 Toughness and ASF to themselves instead.

The only major problems that I see with this is with supporting abilities/models. While some rules like Fly, Vanguard, Swiftstride, the ability to take a musician/champion for double flee/conga line...etc can be given a value, unique rules such as the Blizzard Aura being used to alter a preexisting combat would be very subjective to personal opinion for the "Support" score. (Blizzard Aura adds +10 to Support score for being awesome! Huzzah!). Also while some special abilities are generally great - they are horrible against certain units - like Flaming Attacks. So no matter what - you'll never get a perfect value for each score and each occasion - but it doesn't have to be perfect - just a comparison tool.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:47 am
Posts: 3550
Location: PA, USA
A nice idea although I think it can become very subjective at points. Have you thought about synergy in the units? For example the value in the frost heart is more in its ability to debuff enemy units in most situations, not in the fact that it is a decent monster.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 am
Posts: 7
Thanks for the positive feedback. The way I categorized units is subjective. Therefore, I have made a tool to help everyone categorize units: http://listhammer.com/unit-comparison/

Enjoy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group