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 Post subject: Teclis and the Queen?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:32 am 
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What are your thoughts on Teclis and the queen? It would seem on the surface to be a pretty powerful combo. If you took Teclis with high magic and the queen with life magic al i ng with the banner of Avelorn r hat would give. Teclis a +6 to cast high magic and the queen would get +8 for casting life. Now this really allows us to use the dive at a premium. You could get a lot of spells off in a phase it seems to me. Teclis could cast the majority of,the high spells with one or two dice and so could the queen. It would make it very hard for our opponants to counter. Through in Teclis ability to use his staff and we could have one enormous magic phase counter some of the really tough characters out there.

I'm considering this for my new incarnation of the M S U army.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:12 am 
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I think it can be a pretty strong combination. It would give you a big magical dominance at least. Even more so if you would also bring a lvl1 mage (with something like metal for the sig) with a scroll. 2 scrolls and a lvl5 mage give you about the strongest magical defense you can get.

Few things to keep in mind perhaps. When 1-dicing, Teclis will still lose concentration if you roll a natural 1 or 2, even if you meet the casting value. So perhaps not the best of ideas, except for the last 1 or 2 spells of your phase.

Also, keep in mind that the banner of averlorn only works on spells cast at the unit carrying the banner. While with life, it would work on most spells, it takes a bit of extra planning to get the queen and the banner in the same unit (if desired) or getting the banner in the unit that matters. And of course, no powered up dwellers on a roll of 13...

On the positive side, it works for any mage, not just the everqueen.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:19 am 
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I've used them together 3 times, once at 2k, at 2400 (we've been playing end times since august iirc) and once at 4k. Suffice to say it's pretty much the most powerful magic phase possible in warhammer imo. In a bunker of white lions with a sea helm. I chose 8 different lores on Teclis (just too good to pass up) and high magic on the everqueen. You will literally have a spell at +5 to cast for every occasion, your mages are well protected, you have a superscroll, I had a lvl 1 caddy too at 4k, it's pure filth.

Had the dream combination go off of withering plus fiery convocation on a 1500pt deathstar of 30 nurgle warriors plus lords etc., he failed to dispel both in his own phase (got 7 dice, threw 4 at fiery conv and failed, lost dispel bonus, other mage was dead, then failed to dispel withering on 3 dice), so took 2 more rounds. There were 7 warriors left and his sorcerer lord had taken 2 wounds (he promptly miscast and died), then big searing doomed them to finish them off.

While it is insanely powerful you'll find the number of points you have to invest in that unit you won't have much else unless playing a large game (3k+). And one dwellers will likely be game over (Teclis pretty much auto dead, everqueen 50/50). Also putting Teclis anywhere near combat is always a big, big risk, even with a ward save. I've started running the everqueen with the loremaster with book and glittering scales instead, sometimes with a lvl scroll caddy of light. This gives you the option of going light council and shems is a good spell for a lvl 1. It's not as powerful perhaps at Teclis but its safer to use in combat (one iceshard or miasma and theyre hitting your loremaster on 6s), and will piss off your opponent a lot less. Even though he's not what he was in 7th Teclis will get you a bad rep fast.

The advantage of having the book of hoeth too is in a pinch it lets you 1 dice spells, sure the epic teclis phase can do that, but only once a game. I would avoid the Banner of Averlorn unless you're running pure light council, even then it's questionable, most of your dice will be going at banishment anyway which won't benefit from it, and it makes your bsb just too vulnerable.

When using the loremaster everqueen combo, try to get the more unique utility spells of high magic (with the exception of fiery convocation, which is just every kind of awesome), e.g. walk between worlds and arcane unforging, the loremaster packs enough dmg spells to deal with most things by himself. Something to keep in mind is your spirit leech will go off on ld 10 (highest unmodified leadership mean highest in the unit)

You mentioned that this was for an msu army, tbh though everything about choosing these 2 (particularly the everqueen) begs for death stars and points denial lists. I've used Teclis quite a lot in the last year, in my experience the best way to use him is to choose lots of smaller buff spells that are useful from both range and in combat, e.g. flaming sword, enchanted blades, harmonic convergence, phas protection, wyssans etc. but keeping the old purple sun and withering in your pocket. Being able to cast lots of smaller spells will really make use of your +5 to cast, and these buff spells tend to affect 1 unit, so best it be a larger one!

I always take throne of vines on Teclis too for the miscast protection, people tend to let it go off given that you dont have other lore of life spells, and it's so useful considering you'll be looking to cast a lot of spells and one miscast can really screw you, especially in that key phase (usually turn 3 or 4) where you want to use his staff.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, hope it was useful for you.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Terrifying combo. I've use them both a bit different in a match againt Nagash: Alarielle with 3 life and 1 high as defensive caster, and Teclis with full High as offensive caster.

My idea was unforge Nagash to death (redundancy expected :P) until blow up his armor, while the Everqueen just keep Teclis alive.

In a few words, the combo works pretty much well and find Nagash dead and the end of my second turn (I got the first turn).

Hope it helps :)

PS: yay! My first tactic post! :D excuse muy english please.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:19 pm 
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merlinux wrote:
while the Everqueen just keep Teclis alive

Is she worth it then? I don't see this as a good investment simply because you likely don't have the power dice to support both casters and the build requires investment in items like the Banner of Avelorn to be effective. In short, you a putting in a huge points investment that I'm not convinced is worth it over say Teclis and a couple of lvl2s or the more standard Alarielle builds.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:45 am 
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Hey thanks for the input. My group around here seem to LOVE the overpowered uber lists. So even though I don't, it appears that I won't have much choice going forward with the new rules sets. My current incarnation will get owned by the new rules. I stood a chance under the old rules and took 2nd in the last tourney I played with my MSU list. I had 2 draws, and major win. However, I didn't face the nastiness of the current Nagash rules etc. I have heard plenty of talk about it though and so am going to beef up my list. I have considered the Alarielle and Loremaster combo which sounds intriguing.
I may end up going to that, but I may try a few games with Teclis and Alarielle first. I think I will stick with the queen sporting High Magic to give the unit a 5+ boostable ward (which also benefits Teclis by the way) and in the unit with the World Dragon it makes them pretty tough to beat. Teclis then can concentrate on the spells that will damage and aid. I am thinking the following:

Beasts-Wysson's (boosts the combat value of the unit) S4 T4 Swordmasters?
Death- Spirit Leech (Helps against those other nasty characters)
Fire-Fireball (Meh, gotta take something from fire right?)
Heavens- (not really sure here) probably comet or maybe Iceshard or even Harmonic Convergence
Life-Throne of vines is tempting to ignore miscasts, but I'm not sure that I might not want flesh to stone (combined with Wyssons could make the swordmasters VERY hard to kill.)
Light-Net of Amentok or Banishment
Metal-Searing Doom (gets rid of those pesky 1+ save units and characters)
Shadow-Withering (Really helps my shooting do it's thing and could allow my Soul Quench or Convocation really put the hurt on a unit)

I will probably then do away with the Banner of Avelorn and stick with my standard BSB set up.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:52 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
Is she worth it then? I don't see this as a good investment simply because you likely don't have the power dice to support both casters and the build requires investment in items like the Banner of Avelorn to be effective. In short, you a putting in a huge points investment that I'm not convinced is worth it over say Teclis and a couple of lvl2s or the more standard Alarielle builds.


In fact, I think it is. Let me explain myself.

Even when you know that you probably wont have enough dices to make full use of them, the fact that the Everquen will be casting on +8, force your opponent to use extra precious dispel dices to prevent (for example) Throne of vines to be cast (at least in my local meta, they just put this spell as a MUST in the dispel priority), or that Ress spell that will be bringing back that few PG that were so hard to kill. After that, Teclis will be able to cast almost without resistance. Of course, I'm making a big gamble here... If I don't get average magic winds (6 or more dices), this wont probably work that well.

Any way, I just tried this combo once (with excellent results), and I think it needs more testing.

If you have any suggestion to improve the combo (or an alternative) I'll be glad to read it :D I was thinking that probably an Archmage with BoH will do well replacing Teclis... (but in my heart... no one could replace Teclis...)

PS: Feel free to correct my post if you find grammar errors. I'm just learning the language.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:31 am 
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John Rainbow wrote:
merlinux wrote:
while the Everqueen just keep Teclis alive

Is she worth it then? I don't see this as a good investment simply because you likely don't have the power dice to support both casters and the build requires investment in items like the Banner of Avelorn to be effective. In short, you a putting in a huge points investment that I'm not convinced is worth it over say Teclis and a couple of lvl2s or the more standard Alarielle builds.


From a theocratic standpoint yes I think she's worth it (only played 1-2 games with this setup).
List:
Alarielle (General)
Teclis (choose spells)
2 Lvl 1 Light wizards
BSB - Banner of Avelorn
Stuff
WL - FC, BotWD

So essentially it's the multiple threat that these two casters can produce. Depending on the army I have huge flexibility between them a) if Teclis can choose before deployment (or even not allowed to choose) b) Alarielle can configure her lore selection between Light, Life, High.
I have
a) Double Banishment
or
b) Double Dewellers
Yes I can't ultilise all their spells but he can't stop both banishment nor 2 dewellers. Essentially I'll be able to cast with a degree of impunity and he'll be hard press to dispel.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:41 pm 
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I tried this out at our weekly tournament on Saturday, and I have some concerns over it being viable against high level opponents. Certainly it's a fun list to play around with, but it has some huge short-comings.

For reference, the list:

Alarielle (3 light, 1 high)
Teclis (banishment, savage beasts, dwellers, spirit leech, fulminating flame cage, final transmutation, iceshard blizzard, pit of shades)
Prince w/ sword of anti-heroes, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone

Noble w/ great weapon, armour of caledor
Sea helm w/ bsb, banner of avelorn
Mage, lvl 1 w/ dispel scroll, khaine's ring of fury (light)
mage, lvl w/ forbidden rod (light)

9 silver helms, shields
5 silver helms, shields
5 silver helms, shields
5 reavers, bows & spears
5 reavers, bows & spears

16 White Lions, FC, BoWD

I went all in on the deathstar because, as I was building the list, it became clear there just aren't a lot of points to go elsewhere after you build the base deathstar. Best case scenario, you could squeeze out room for two frost phoenixes, but at that point you're putting lvl 1 mages in the front rank of your white lions. If you get bogged down in a combat, they are going to pop a lvl 1 mage, and then pop Alarielle or Teclis. Further to this end, most people in my area play answers to frost phoenixes, so if you do not have something with them to push the action they will both be dead before turn 3.

So, with so many characters I ended up taking Savage Beasts of Horos from beasts magic, and would bubble that to win combats. Front rank of Prince, Noble, Sea Helm, Teclis, and (Alarielle/WL Champ) cranks out a disgusting amount of attacks. Prince is on 7+anti-heroes at minimum S7, noble 6 attacks at s9, etc, Teclis 4 at 2+ wound no armor, Alarielle with Heroic killing blow if you're feeling fancy against chaos. Alareille also casts Timewarp on a 4+ to throw it over the top.

Early turns of magic are just double s7 banishments and free casting a spell or two at end of phase if they dispel both banishments. Double banishment from them takes about 5 dice. 2 dice from Teclis, 3 dice from Alarielle, typically. Looking for a 6+ from Alarielle on 2 dice makes me a bit nervous as it sets you way behind if you miss, and it's a 28% chance you fail... Not willing to give Alarielle up on 1 of 4 magic phases. This situation is powerful, and it does a lot of damage to a unit, but it will rarely pick up points on its own. When you start needing banishment to go off to kill a unit that has been maimed by a characteristic test spell, they will just go heavy to dispel banishment. This mean you have to bring the block into combat.

So, while all fun sounding, there comes some problems... You really don't have anything else in the list. I have the WL unit trimmed pretty low at 16 bodies. I think its an acceptable number, as when you're caught out in a combat that you're going to lose to grinding, the number of bodies doesn't make much of a difference in my experience (my standard tournament list is Alarielle WL deathstar, so there's a good bit of experience). Even with the unit trimmed low, playing 627 point core in a 2500 point list, you have 365 points to work with.

I'm not saying there isn't a way to make this work, but in my area and with my playgroup, it is very difficult to get this list to work. You can dominate the magic phase, but there just isn't enough going on in the list to protect the white lion unit or to collect the points that the magic phase sets you up for. Getting double charged continues to spell doom for the unit, and when you have something like 1600+ points wrapped up in it, it becomes just a bit too much to stomach. Maybe running a large unit of silver helms out of the core and trying to develop them into a combat effective unit and maybe a unit of dragon princes could work, but my area just plays too much chaff for that plan to have worked at my tournament.


Last edited by Alcibiates on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:54 pm 
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What unit do the characters go in? You only have cav. in the list.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:27 pm 
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Eh forgot to put the white lion unit in there. Popping in an edit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:40 pm 
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My comments would be that the WL are a very small unit. I don't imagine that they are combat effective at all really against anything that is actually a threat.

Why not drop the Prince and Sea Helm, and add some more redirectors or ranged threats to help you out and maximise your magic potential?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:30 pm 
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In the current hero-filled meta, the potential of triple Banishment in a round, triple arcane unforging, or mix of both, makes them good enough to be quite solid.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:18 pm 
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I play a Teclis based Coven of Light list a lot. Based on my experience I would say that a Teclis + Alarielle Coven of Light list would really be more of a evade (points denial) and range attack list than a classic Deathstar list.

The main reason for this is that Banishment is a Magic Missile spell. So I agree with John, drop the Prince and the Sea Helm.

Also, the White Lions should be about 19 models when you have 5 characters as this allows you to put Teclis and Alarielle in the second rank when 6 models wide.

With the freed up points I would look to max out on Eagle Claws, add one Great Eagle, and revise the Core to have appropriate Chaff units (i.e. 6 model cavalry units with a champion and musician/standard bearer). The Core can include Archers, but with full command and 15+ models. The list also needs to feature Shadow Warriors to control vanguard units and increase your chances of going first.

The BSB should also have the Reaver Bow, consider how Savage Beasts would stack here...

If all goes well, you will be casting 2xBanishment and Flame Cage each turn with the odd Savage Beasts casting attempt. The Chaff would be used to keep threats away from your White Lion unit.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:19 am 
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How do you manage to keep Teclis alive in a meta with waystalkers and sniper maneaters?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:41 am 
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Don't sniper maneaters need 6's to hit? And only get a single shot if they snipe? In which case they're not too scary. Getting hit by them is about the same failing a LOS roll against cannons. And there is of course more in the list then just Teclis which can help you deal with them.

Also, the advantage of magic missiles is that you're not rolling to hit, which means you can put stuff in between which hinders them but not you.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:10 am 
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Well you can give them a brace of pistols (2 shots) and poison. The pistols have quick to fire, so no -1 for moving. So usually these guys will be shooting at long range, snipe, and multiple shoots, which means they will be hitting and at the same time wounding on 6's. So if they can get 3 poison shots to hit on a 6, it is a dead Teclis.

I am considering running this guy for a upcoming tournament, but not being able to heal him or have any ward save on him, makes me really nervous.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:15 am 
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Until you either put Teclis in the second rank of the unit or put a unit in front of Teclis and get him cover. In which case you need 7 or 8 to actually hit him so, no poison and a lot of maneater shots needed. 3 hits on 7 is 22 double shots for a dead Teclis. For 8 it's 33 double shots. Not really that effective I would say.

Also, just give Teclis an easy to cast life spell and you can heal him up easily. Earth blood, flesh, throne or shield will all do just fine. You can probably get any of them cast (an easy 2 dice) if needed. And your opponent will probably let them pass if you also have a double s7 banishment waiting for him. You can even improve your odds if you feel it's needed by giving the everqueen a single life spell as well.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:45 am 
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I actually didn't know that putting a character in the second rank would provide him/her with hard cover from the front rank. I thought it had to be another unit. Then you are completely right then:).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:55 pm 
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This is debated. Depends on your local interpretation. Where I play, I've always had it ruled that it has to be another unit. As if Sniper wasn't strong enough as is...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:59 am 
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Yes, that is something to keep in mind. A lot of places use their own Line of Sight rules. However, in a lot of line of sight systems you can easily argue that you should either get cover or are simply not visible.

Going from BRB line of sight (BRB p41): you apply a to hit penalty for cover 'when firing against a single model, more then half the model' 'is obscured from the shooting model's view by other models or terrain'

If a model standing right in front of you doesn't cover more then half of your model then I wouldn't know what does. Remember, in the BRB version of true line of sight, it is down to what the individual model can actually see.

In other line of sight systems you could very well even be completely invisible. If a model blocks los for things of the same size behind it then you wouldn't be able to see the second rank. Of course, this would also prevent you from casting spells that require line of sight (magic missiles).

But it's always worth it to check what rules are applied locally for you.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:43 am 
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With TLOS you at least have a chance to obscure him, but given the mobility of Waystalkers this is by no means ensured, unfortunately. I think snipers fall into the category with things like random movement, unbreakable etc: Mechanics that just ruin the game. Not because of how they┬┤re intended to work, but because of the specifics and how incredibly powerful units that employ them typically are.

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