HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

[The Silly Dragon]

I don't see Flaming Sword as a decent spell especially since the FAQ made it so you cannot auto-wound with it.

Alot of advice for 2400+pts...shame i didn't play anything bigger than 2000pts sometimes i was lucky to get even a 1500pts game once a month.

[Curu Olannon]

I don't see Flaming Sword as a decent spell especially since the FAQ made it so you cannot auto-wound with it.

Alot of advice for 2400+pts...shame i didn't play anything bigger than 2000pts sometimes i was lucky to get even a 1500pts game once a month.

That`s your opinion. With +4 to cast it can be reliably chucked off with only 2PD, increasing a unit of Archers` potential greatly, making that RBT or Skycutter that little bit better, helping your units get magical, flaming attacks and even for S6+ beasts it can be valuable against opponents like Daemon Princes, Plague Beasts, Greater Daemons, Dragons, Monsters... List goes on. It`s not an amazing spell by any means but it`s a very decent spell given its low cast value because of its utility.

Also, combined with the Gem of Sunfire, a Dragon`s breath weapon can hurt T4 models on 2+ with this buff. Hello Gutstar!

[The Silly Dragon]

Archers at +1 to wound wont help against the armour and the lightly armoured will fall easily enough with base 4+ to wound. Take the Sisters. What makes these good? S4 is nice but also AP is good too. Problem is armour not toughness. I took down many an Ogre or Giant with my Archers without Flaming Sword but once they shot at some Bloodcrushers they just did nothing. Flaming sword would not help against BC and not really needed against the toughness as enough firepower will do the trick just as well (and hell we at the moment may as well spend the points in mass Archer fire as its all thgere is in core really)

It helps theres no denying that but its not as great a help as people make out.

[HERO]

At 450, I'm not sure on the viability of Teclis in the new book. He keeps his scroll, so a supporting Mage can bring 2 scrolls to the army still. However, he loses the +D3 PD and DD, alongside losing the Banner of Sorcery. Not sure if worth compared to a normal Lv.4 with Book of Hoeth; which at the most expensive is still ~100 points less than him.

[Tethlis]

It helps theres no denying that but its not as great a help as people make out.

I'd call that your opinion versus the opinions of others

I've Seerstaffed Fulminating Flame Cage and Flame Sword of Rhuin in the past in a Lore of Life list, and it was an outstanding spell for adding some more killing power to my units. The versatility and application is stunning.

Also, I don't know how your dice act, but I have a lousy tendency to roll slightly below average at all times. So being able to take Strength 3 arrows to an effective Strength 4 does a lot of good for me .

I don't think I would take fire on a Level or anything just to access it, but I'd gladly have it on any variety of support caster.

[HERO]

Mirrored:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/04/high ... .html#more

With High Elves rapidly approaching, I wanted to make a blog post every day until the book comes out this weekend. These posts will hopefully capture your interest in the army and expand your mind along side mine.

Like I said before, I'm looking at 2 key playstyles with High Elves in their new book. Those playstyles are the Dragon Lord and the Mage Lord. To give an idea of the direction I want to go in, I'm going to post up some rough hypothetical army lists.

Dragon Lord
Prince on Star Dragon ~625
Lv.2 Mage, High Magic, Scroll ~160
Noble BSB, Dragon Prince ~175
11x Dragon Princes, Banner of World Dragon ~410
Core of Archers and Ellyrion Reavers ~625
2x Ice Phoenix ~480
2x Great Eagle ~100

Mage Lord
Lv.4 Archmage, High Magic, Book of Hoeth ~315
Lv.2 Loremaster, 2+ AS, Scroll ~250
Sea Helm BSB, 2+ AS, Luckstone ~150
30x Sea Guard, Eternal Flame ~625
+rest of core with Archers and/or Reavers
30x White Lions, BotWD ~470
5x Dragon Princes, Musician - 160
Ice Phoenix ~240
4x RBT ~280
2x Great Eagle ~100

Both of these lists are above the 2500 points window, but that's because I want to give you the best case scenario. The prices I've listed are pretty ballpark, some we know like the 12pt LSG, the White Lions are rumored to be 13pts a piece, and I'm using a lot of the old values for our heroes/lords. The Loremaster is complete guesswork, but to give you an idea, the current Prince is 150 points with full SoA benefits.

Alright, let me take you behind the scenes of these two lists and show you what I want to do. I'll start with the Dragon Lord. I'm sure as the week goes on and people all around the world gets their books, I'll be able to get a better picture on the points allotment and will adjust as we go.


The Dragon List

First thing's first, the Star Dragon scenario has changed a bit. We no longer get SoA so we're no longer tooting around a Great Weapon all the time. However, rumors point to the Star Lance (+3S, no AS) allowing you to use a Great Weapon after you've charged with the SL. That's pretty cool. With the current knowledge of the items available to us, I'm going to go with Star Lance, OTS, 4+ Ward. Extra points will buy a GW most likely, otherwise I'm fine with just that. The Star Dragon himself is now T7, so I'm really happy that they made that change. If you guys remember what I hypothesized before, you'll know that they brought all the dragons up to Storm of Magic status.

Along side the valiant Prince and his Star Dragon rides the Dragon Princes of Caledor with the Banner of World Dragon. I'm hoping for a points decrease on the DPs, but if that doesn't come, I'm fine with that too. The big thing here is the Banner of World Dragon for 50 points. That means a unit like the Dragon Princes can carry it, as well as all of our Elite infantry (if things remain unchanged). This gives them an edge over the Silver Helms and frankly, one of the only reasons to take the DPs over SHs. With Martial Prowess giving full advantage the SHs, the DPs have a more defined role: 2+ ward vs. fire because of Fireborn, 6+ ward comes built into Dragon Armor, and the ability to wield one of the strongest banners in the game. The current rumors gives the Banner of the World Dragon a 2+ Ward vs. all wounds caused by magic spells, weapons and attacks. This is huge because it essentially allows our DPs to challenge walk through most lords/heroes and spells and not worry. Unfortunately, the banner does not work vs. the likes of Dwellers or other unsavory characteristic tests. No worries though, the Banner also gives all Dragons within 12" of it Stubborn. There's just no chance a Ld.10 Prince is going anywhere with a BSB re-roll + Stubborn.

In front of the Dragon Princes are the key to this list; the beloved Ice Phoenix. You can quote me on this when I say that the Ice Phoenix will single-handily change the meta. It's to a point where 2x of them will see bans from multiple comps because of how good they are. For 15 points more than Fire Phoenix, you get a crapton of stat improvements, including T6 and an extra Wound. This is huge because it not only gives the Ice Phoenix durability, but when combined with its Blizzard Aura, it essentially makes the bird T7 in close combat. The reason why I say the Ice Phoenix will change the meta is because Blizzard Aura gives units in BtB with it ASL and -1S. The ASL part is huge because it negates the greatest strengths of some killy characters. VC Blenderlords will suffer from this the most because they take a double whammy in -S and losing Quickblood bonuses. ASL also gives our combo-charges more meaning; allowing our WS7 S7 I2 Dragon to strike first with its 6 attacks, and also allowing our Phoenix to bash in his attacks as well. This combined with the threat range of a flyer makes the Phoenix ideal at supporting any charge in the game. As if the ASL wasn't good enough, the -1S makes the Phoenix himself T7 in CC, the Star Dragon T8 and the Dragon Princes T4. It's a pseudo-buffer that negates the primary weakness of High Elves: Low Toughness. This combined with the fact that the Ice Phoenix still benefits from his natural 5+ AS and 5+ Ward, but depending on the role of the magic phase, he might become even better (or worse on 1-2).

The rest of the list is pretty explanatory. I would like to try 2 things in this area: Shooting heavy and mobility heavy. I currently own 2x 5x Ellyrion Reavers, but I have a crap ton of archers. Shooting, ideally, will compliment this list the most because it removes chaff that would otherwise hinder our combo-charges. Ellyrion Reavers with Bows and Archers should be able to take care of this issue. Otherwise, a unit of 30x LSG in 3x10 formation can put out an enormous amount of shots due to Martial Prowess to a point it can't be ignored. The same could be said about 15x Archers in 5x3. I can easily see most core elements composing of 3-4 Ellyrion Reavers and the rest being 10-15x Archers. The idea is to present multiple drops to your opponents allow you to line up your more powerful elements (Eagles, DP, Phoenixes, Star Dragon, in that order) to his.

Lastly, we have the Lv.2 supporting Mage using High Magic. Offensively with +3 to cast due to Blessing of Lileath, I plan on using him to dispel spells where needed, give back wounds via Apothesis, or buff up the WS of certain units into -1 hit range. Both the Phoenix and Star Dragon is WS6+, so a few points in the right direction can bring them to WS9, the sweet spot for WS4 and under whereas even a single successful cast can put them out of hitting range of WS3 base troops. Spells I would like to see are Apothesis and Hand of Glory for sure.

The Mage List

On the other side of the spectrum, we have a magic heavy and shooting heavy list in the form of the Mage Lord list. Ideally, we are able to take the Lv.4 with High Magic and Lv.2 Loremaster in the same list. The Loremaster can then double up with the Sea Helm to provide us with Noble-ish fighting prowess as well as having a good magic phase. I chose High Magic for my Lv.4 because it gives us flexibility and coverage, and that fact I want to take advantage of Lileath's Blessing (+1 to cast for High Magic). However, that's still up in the air because I can always look at more specific lores since the Loremaster himself gives us enough flexibility. Shadow is always a good option, but then again so is Light. If I want to take Light, I might look into a Lv.1 supporting Light Wizard just so he can carry the scroll while the rest of my guys do the serious work. The main benefit of that is having a S6 Banishment; which vs. most armies is considered a must-dispel spell.

Now, let's take a look at the spell flexibility of the Loremaster:

Fireball - Pumpable MM.
Wyssan's Wildform - +1S/+1T augment, super good sig, good in EVERY situation.
Spirit of the Forge - That's right. Enough said.
Burning Gaze - Kills Ethereal, just another Fireball, but better vs. Undead.
Earth Blood - 5+ Regen, good every time minus flaming attacks.
Iceshard Blizzard - Hex, -1 to hit and Ld, low casting cost, super good every time.
Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma - Shadow sig, good every time.
Spirit Leech - We even get a snipe.

All the MMs and Forge are conditional, but solid spells.
Every augment is great, every hex is great.
In short, there are just no bad spells. And to have them all? Unlimited flexibility and spell supremacy. Most of these spells you can throw 2 dice at, every time, that's 8 spells that's being cast off a Lv.2.
And the best thing? Effects stack. -1 to hit from Iceshard with Pha's? Nerf his WS via Miasma + buff ours with High Magic. +1S/T combined with Ice Phoenix's ASL and -1S? Amazing.

The rest of the list should be pretty explanatory. Fill in the rest with shooting elements and solid infantry blocks. Depending on the points of the Phoenix Guard, I might bring them a long too. A solid unit of LSG combined with RBT supporting fire will give the army a huge edge in the magic/shooting phase. I've always viewed magic as an addition to shooting, and if the points cost of the units are cheaper than usual, I'll be bringing along even more bodies on the battlefield.

Let me know what you guys think.

[The Silly Dragon]

Its the same old meta thinking again. My meta has seen Flaming Sword as ineffective for the points allocated to optain it (not even a sig for normal mages so to get it reliably i need a Dragonmage and they ain't cheap). Perhaps you have seen better with it but that to me is just your opinion still based on my own experiences with the spell. I never stated my theory is absolute fact i just dissagreed on it being as good as people make it out to be and stated why i thought so. Too many people are willing to jump down your throat these days for a comment.

[Tethlis]

Too many people are willing to jump down your throat these days for a comment.

Did I give the impression I was angry? That wasn't my intention . I definitely respect anybody's right to disagree, just as I reserve the right to disagree. There's nothing wrong with your choice not to take a certain spell, and I agree that it hasn't become part of my standard loadout. I've been Shadow/High and Coven of Light for most of 8th edition. Flaming Sword was a good asset to support a Life AM, and I was very pleased with it.

@HERO:
Looking good. I'm hoping the AM/Loremaster setup works, because I haven't run a dragon list in ages and I'd rather not overhaul my whole approach to a faction based on an armybook edition. That being said, I'll be trying both approaches for the sake of knowledge and completion.

[HERO]

Too many people are willing to jump down your throat these days for a comment.

Did I give the impression I was angry? That wasn't my intention . I definitely respect anybody's right to disagree, just as I reserve the right to disagree. There's nothing wrong with your choice not to take a certain spell, and I agree that it hasn't become part of my standard loadout. I've been Shadow/High and Coven of Light for most of 8th edition. Flaming Sword was a good asset to support a Life AM, and I was very pleased with it.

@HERO:
Looking good. I'm hoping the AM/Loremaster setup works, because I haven't run a dragon list in ages and I'd rather not overhaul my whole approach to a faction based on an armybook edition. That being said, I'll be trying both approaches for the sake of knowledge and completion.

@Tethlis

I'm thinking that infantry-based lists with cavalry here and there will be our "best" list.
The Dragon Lord list, while fun and looks awesome, suffers from the same weaknesses as other dragon-based lists in 8th. That is Steadfast, Cannons, but more commonly from Steadfast + getting flank charged.

[John Rainbow]

The Dragon Lord list, while fun and looks awesome, suffers from the same weaknesses as other dragon-based lists in 8th. That is Steadfast...

Dragon banner? Granting stubborn to the dragon is pretty awesome for negating getting challenged out and then cut down after fleeing due to rank bonus.

[HERO]

The Dragon Lord list, while fun and looks awesome, suffers from the same weaknesses as other dragon-based lists in 8th. That is Steadfast...

Dragon banner? Granting stubborn to the dragon is pretty awesome for negating getting challenged out and then cut down after fleeing due to rank bonus.

Indeed, but, the looming issue exists there still. I wonder if our Dragon Princes count towards that.. (the Stubborn part).

[HERO]

So.... how about that 390 point Star Dragon....?

Looks like this killed most of our hypothetical Prince builds..

I'm definitely seeing OTS, 4+ Ward and Dragon Helm to be the standard.. along side a GW (with no re-rolls ). I guess we can't have them all after all...

Prince
Star Dragon
OTS, 4+ Ward, Dragon Helm
Heavy Armor, Great Weapon
612

Or we might want to look at Moon Dragons... them being the much cheaper option..

Prince
Moon Dragon
OTS, 4+ Ward, Dragon Helm, Star Lance
Heavy Armor, Great Weapon
552

Thoughts?

[John Rainbow]

I'm definitely seeing OTS, 4+ Ward and Dragon Helm to be the standard.. along side a GW (with no re-rolls ). I guess we can't have them all after all...

IMHO a combat character without rerolls is next to worthless. You lose 1/3 of your attacks every round. I don't think the GW is an auto-choose anymore.

[HERO]

I'm definitely seeing OTS, 4+ Ward and Dragon Helm to be the standard.. along side a GW (with no re-rolls ). I guess we can't have them all after all...

IMHO a combat character without rerolls is next to worthless. You lose 1/3 of your attacks every round. I don't think the GW is an auto-choose anymore.

But the OTS is a must have... which is exactly the problem here. I'm really looking at the Moon Dragon in this case.

[Toledo Inquisition]

At 2400 points, I'm thinking:

Prince, Stardragon, dragon armour, Sword of Might, charmed/enchanted shield, Crown of A. (2+ WS on first wound), OTS. 600 even - I'd consider this an all comers list

or

Prince, Stardragon, dragon armour, Star Lance, charmed/enchanted shield, Crown of A., Ironcurse Icon - well, the dragon gets a 1/6 chance to survive cannonballs.

Agreed we can make better builds at 2500 or good builds at 3000 points. Unfortunately I play 2/3 at 2400 and 1/3 of the time at 3000 points, so I have to go with suboptimal 2400 builds and not with so-so builds that could be done at 2500.

I think a key with the Star Dragon list is to pair it with a Frosty Phoenix, for the -1S, ASL component.

Right now, I'm looking at a Star Dragon, 2 Frosties, BSB, L2 High, eagle, 600 core and either Swordmasters or Dragon Princes with BOTWD. I've had better luck with Swordmasters in the past, but now I'm not so sure. The stubborn 12" is key, and Dragon Princes have the speed edge.

PS - I play no comp, bring the mean if you want lists.

[HERO]

At 2400 points, I'm thinking:

Prince, Stardragon, dragon armour, Sword of Might, charmed/enchanted shield, Crown of A. (2+ WS on first wound), OTS. 600 even - I'd consider this an all comers list

or

Prince, Stardragon, dragon armour, Star Lance, charmed/enchanted shield, Crown of A., Ironcurse Icon - well, the dragon gets a 1/6 chance to survive cannonballs.

Agreed we can make better builds at 2500 or good builds at 3000 points. Unfortunately I play 2/3 at 2400 and 1/3 of the time at 3000 points, so I have to go with suboptimal 2400 builds and not with so-so builds that could be done at 2500.

I think a key with the Star Dragon list is to pair it with a Frosty Phoenix, for the -1S, ASL component.

Right now, I'm looking at a Star Dragon, 2 Frosties, BSB, L2 High, eagle, 600 core and either Swordmasters or Dragon Princes with BOTWD. I've had better luck with Swordmasters in the past, but now I'm not so sure. The stubborn 12" is key, and Dragon Princes have the speed edge.

PS - I play no comp, bring the mean if you want lists.

Aye, that's what I'm looking at too
Now that we have points, here's what I'm thinking..

2486 Dragon Lord

Prince
Star Dragon
Lance, Heavy Armor, Dragon Helm, 4+ Ward, OTS
616

Noble
BSB, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed, Lance
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
156

Lv.2 Mage
High Magic, Scroll
145

CORE:
5x Ellyrion Reavers, Bows = 85
5x Ellyrion Reavers, Bows = 85
5x Ellyrion Reavers, Bows = 85
5x Ellyrion Reavers, Bows = 85
10x Archers = 100
10x Archers = 100
10x Archers = 100

Special:
11x Dragon Princes, FC, Banner of the World Dragon = 399

RARE:
Ice Phoenix = 240
Ice Phoenix = 240
Eagle = 50

[HERO]

@Tethlis

Bro, seeing our dreams a bit dashed due to these new costs, what you think about the Moon Dragon? And what do you think about our original magic/shooty list variant vs. the Dragon lord in terms of competitive play?

[HERO]

In this segment, we'll explore the Lords and Heroes, followed by Core choices in the next installment (tonight). Please refer to my earlier post on what we know so far as a reference. At this point, I'm 95% sure of those rumors as being in the book since they've been confirmed by several sources.

Onto the Lords and Heroes! SCs will come later.

Prince - 3.5/5
The first thing I have to say about the Prince is that I'm a little disappointed. While he got a slight points decrease, the 390 point Star Dragon is what's really off-putting. For 90 points less, we have access to the Moon Dragon which has a 6s statline. The big thing here is the points. When taking a Dragon Lord, you have to squeeze every little bit out of this guy and with the Star Dragon being so expensive, I'm not sure how I feel about having him in the list anymore. We'll talk about sample builds as we go along the week, but for now I'm looking at the Moon Dragon as a more cost-effective option. The main threat of cannons being able to bring down dragons also has me a bit worried. If dragons are not going to be effective, I'll sure as hell look into Cavalry Princes being the dominant option.

Anointed of Asuryan - 4/5
This guy is the guy to go to when fielding foot lists I'd say. He comes with 4+ Ward, MR2, ItP, gives his unit 6+ ward, and comes stock with Fear. His price is pretty good too, although he has worse leadership than a Prince and less attacks. The ability to mount a Phoenix is also pretty good, especially when you factor the built-in Ward save. MR2 gives him a 2++ vs. MM and the Phoenix gets a 3++. He's a definite contender for having 3x Ice Phoenixes in a list, or even competing with the Prince on Moon Dragon.

Loremaster - 5/5
Very solid, I really like him. His main function is to be a fighting Noble, being able to take a 2+ armor save while still retaining his ability to cast cheap signature spells. He's going to be a staple in every magic list just because he combines the best that is a Noble with a strong, versatile casting mage. He puts supporting mages to shame because of his ability to mount armor, put out decent damage and spellsling at the same time. The price tag is a little high, but I think he's worth it every game when combined with an Archmage.

Archmage - 5/5
Lv.4 every time. Especially with the new point cost, I see him with Book of Hoeth plus either 4+ Ward or Crown every single game. The same spell versatility makes him very appealing in magic-heavy lists, and with Book of Hoeth he can push out spells and dispels a lot easier. Personally, I'll be fielding him relatively cheap with Book, Crown and that's it. Push him back in the back row with a few characters and he'll be quite safe; especially if your unit will be fielding the Banner of the World Dragon. I plan on taking him with High Magic so I can utilize Blessing of Lileath as much as possible in combination with a unit of Phoenix Guard.

Noble - 4.5/5
Looking pretty fine here. Nothing has changed for him except the fact he lost a little bit of protection. BSBs will be mandatory in every army, so he goes perfectly with a Cavalry Prince when mounted, or traveling in an infantry army with 2+ AS. Having the opportunity to mount a Griffon is also pretty significant here. I'm not entirely convinced on the beast though mainly due to cannons, no save and a potential to be expensive depending on upgrades.

Sea Helm - 2/5
Not bad, a pretty decent option when in a unit of Sea Guard. Nice, fluffy, and offers Naval Discipline. He's a bit more expensive than a Noble, so that alone puts him in on the bottom of my unit bucket. The only real reason you'll use him vs. a cheaper Noble as a BSB is for Naval Discipline.. which is only really useful in a unit of Sea Guard. However, I guess you can take him on a Sky Cutter as well for that free 4+ Ward. Not sure how much benefit that'll give you though, but you will have a flying BSB.

Handmaiden of the Everqueen - 2/5
Used with the Everqueen, can be given Everqueen specific items that'll make Sisters of Averlorn more appealing. Not my cup of tea, but with the Bow of the Seafearer and Quick to Fire that she confers onto the unit, she can find some use in those kind of lists.

Mage - 4/5
Small, diverse, cheaper, and can take a scroll. Acts best as a scroll caddy and supporting caster. Also good in a Coven of Light because of the price.

Dragon Mage - 1/5
Even with Dragon Armor and the ability to take magical armors, I'm not sure how much I'll be looking into this guy. He lacks the flexibility of the other lores, fights to compete in points for the AM/Loremaster combo, and suffers the same problem as other Large Targets that could attract enemy fire. Overall, I'm not feeling this guy at all.

[Tethlis]

@Tethlis

Bro, seeing our dreams a bit dashed due to these new costs, what you think about the Moon Dragon? And what do you think about our original magic/shooty list variant vs. the Dragon lord in terms of competitive play?

Good question. Been mulling that one over the past couple of days. I think the Moon Dragon can be viable, and isn't bad, but for me personally the incentive to go for a Dragon Prince is greatly reduced without Strength 7/Toughness/7 and (most importantly) 7 Wounds. The 7 Wounds is so key. My concern is that a Moon Dragon character and his mount can't weather the damage they'd incur sending them after the threats that we'd want to send a Dragon after, with no great way to regain those lost Wounds. Strength 6 on the dragons, and no way for the rider to get awesome Strength + Re-rolls + Protection for the Prince (it looks like you have to compromise in there somewhere) makes me nervous because that doesn't translate to a ton of damage. If we could get the Moon Dragon Prince and an Archmage, I think it becomes more viable because that magic support is invaluable. As it is right now though, I don't think I would take a Dragon Prince over an AM when I could have Phoenixi perform a similar role.

[HERO]

I honestly see a balanced Magic list as much stronger than Dragon atm.
From what it looks like right now, I'll tinker with lists a bit throughout this week but I'll probably end up doing magic first.

[HERO]

Let's talk about Core really quick. No bullshit, right down to the nitty gritty. If one thing's for certain, it's that there's tons of discussion regarding our Core right now. This is a very good sign as it shows tons of flexibility in regards to playstyle and function.

Spearmen - 3.5/5
Pretty solid option still. If anything, they are overlooked a lot because they're exactly the same as the last book. I've always liked Spears. They give a lot of bodies that absolutely shred other core-based infantry in the game and can be buffed to levels that upset a lot of people due to the amount of attacks they put out. Compared to similar Core, High Elf Spearmen are amazing. Not to mention they can take a magical banner while no one else in core can. Keep that in mind!

Archers - 4/5
Went down in points, cheap, and throws out a good amount of shots. With Martial Prowess now affecting Archers in 3-ranks, a unit of 5x3 lets loose 15 S3 shots from 30" away. This is a great way to clear enemy chaff and they're an absolute staple to the High Elf war machine. Always have some kind of archery in your army lists unless you're going for a pure melee approach.

Lothern Sea Guard - 3/5
These guys also went down a point and still retain the same function as before. Sadly, they can no longer take a magical banner and much like archers, cannot take the Banner of Eternal Flame to threaten regen units from far away. Honestly, LSG are a pretty decent unit. They double up on shooting and function like Spearmen once they reach close combat. You can feel comfortable with putting them in a unit of 6x5 and comfortably count 18+3+3 in terms of shots from 24" away while attacking back in 4 ranks in close combat. Due to their flexibility and points drop vs. the unchanged Spears, they're not a bad choice.

Ellyrion Reavers - 4/5
Take these guys in 5s and never look back. They are cheap, Fast, Vanguard cavalry which can shoot, block, obstruct charge lanes, and kill chaff. As solid as these guys are, I can't rank them above Archers. Archers gives you more shots, more bodies and can keep chaff without ever having to commit. Reavers, on the other hand, should be used like Eagles that travel on the ground. They're cheap enough that you can also employ double flee mechanics.

Silver Helms - 4/5
I graded these guys assuming you don't take them as a Prince bus. As a bus, I would probably give these guys the max. With Martial Prowess extending to the third rank, you can now take a decent sized cavalry bus that can chip in more damage than they did before. With the points of these guys coming out of Core, you can now run a Cavalry Prince with a lot less points commitment from the rest of the army. Any bit of 2+ armor in core is good, but Ithilmar Barding, ASF and Lances.

[Malcontent]

Archers - 4/5
Went down in points, cheap, and throws out a good amount of shots. With Martial Prowess now affecting Archers in 3-ranks, a unit of 5x3 lets loose 15 S3 shots from 30" away. This is a great way to clear enemy chaff and they're an absolute staple to the High Elf war machine. Always have some kind of archery in your army lists unless you're going for a pure melee approach.

Wait, Martial Prowess now works with Ranged weapons? Are you sure about this? If so I may actually take Archers and Seaguard over Silver Helms.

[HERO]

Archers - 4/5
Went down in points, cheap, and throws out a good amount of shots. With Martial Prowess now affecting Archers in 3-ranks, a unit of 5x3 lets loose 15 S3 shots from 30" away. This is a great way to clear enemy chaff and they're an absolute staple to the High Elf war machine. Always have some kind of archery in your army lists unless you're going for a pure melee approach.

Wait, Martial Prowess now works with Ranged weapons? Are you sure about this? If so I may actually take Archers and Seaguard over Silver Helms.

Yup

[NexS]

Archers - 4/5
Went down in points, cheap, and throws out a good amount of shots. With Martial Prowess now affecting Archers in 3-ranks, a unit of 5x3 lets loose 15 S3 shots from 30" away. This is a great way to clear enemy chaff and they're an absolute staple to the High Elf war machine. Always have some kind of archery in your army lists unless you're going for a pure melee approach.

Wait, Martial Prowess now works with Ranged weapons? Are you sure about this? If so I may actually take Archers and Seaguard over Silver Helms.

Even if so, you'd only get half a rank more than usual due to volley fire being in place (assuming you didn't move).
I'd say that if Martial Prowess applies to ballistic weapons, then it would be most effective in your big anvil of Sea Guard. It'd be hard to turn down the opportunity to cop a charge with loosing 30 arrows, followed closely by 50 spears forward...

EDIT:
And I might add that I haven't had a chance to look through all the confirmed new rules, but assuming we remain ASF, that's almost effectively 130 attacks

[HERO]

Archers - 4/5
Went down in points, cheap, and throws out a good amount of shots. With Martial Prowess now affecting Archers in 3-ranks, a unit of 5x3 lets loose 15 S3 shots from 30" away. This is a great way to clear enemy chaff and they're an absolute staple to the High Elf war machine. Always have some kind of archery in your army lists unless you're going for a pure melee approach.

Wait, Martial Prowess now works with Ranged weapons? Are you sure about this? If so I may actually take Archers and Seaguard over Silver Helms.

Even if so, you'd only get half a rank more than usual due to volley fire being in place (assuming you didn't move).
I'd say that if Martial Prowess applies to ballistic weapons, then it would be most effective in your big anvil of Sea Guard. It'd be hard to turn down the opportunity to cop a charge with loosing 30 arrows, followed closely by 50 spears forward...

EDIT:
And I might add that I haven't had a chance to look through all the confirmed new rules, but assuming we remain ASF, that's almost effectively 130 attacks

But one target.

I would rather do this..
30x LSG, FC = 390
12x Archers = 120
12x Archers = 120

Gives you 630 in core and an asston of arrows that you can fire at 3 targets, and hold the line with one.

[NexS]

Without moving you'd get 40 from the seaguard, and I'd then be inclined to take units of 15(3x5) archers - nice and compact for a more concerntrated deployment

[Tethlis]

Without moving you'd get 40 from the seaguard, and I'd then be inclined to take units of 15(3x5) archers - nice and compact for a more concerntrated deployment

I just switched to this mechanic in my latest batch of lists. 2 x 15 Archers, 1 x 10 Archers, 2 x 5 Reavers, distribute musicians and command to taste. I don't like that it doesn't give another line-of-battle unit, something I'm accustomed to having, but I've been building my lists so ranged-heavy that I like that these guys can scatter like roaches if something makes it to the backfield.

[NexS]

I just switched to this mechanic in my latest batch of lists. 2 x 15 Archers, 1 x 10 Archers, 2 x 5 Reavers, distribute musicians and command to taste. I don't like that it doesn't give another line-of-battle unit, something I'm accustomed to having, but I've been building my lists so ranged-heavy that I like that these guys can scatter like roaches if something makes it to the backfield.

I've recently moved back to the horde of spearies (originally moved away because EVERY TIME I used them, they failed me) but I'd fill my core entirely with archers and have a horde of PG with a couple of support units. I've steered away from that more so because i don't like having all my eggs in one basket... I have to play that way when I use my Lizardmen, so I like the change of scenery

[Sihca]

SO

I definately am going to put a dragon of some description in my list either a moon dragon mount for my lord choice or (sorry as i know you do not rate the dragon mage for various reasons) the aforementioned dragon mage. Why? Well I plan on running high magic on a level 4 AM if I take the dragon mage for instance and apotheosis 5+ cast ought to keep the dragons trucking, the boosted d3 wounds regained even more so. Of course this will maybe prove to be a terrible idea and only playtesting this idea will see if it is viable but on paper at least may entice people to put dragons (even moon or mage) on a table....remember nothing makes your opponents jaw fall open quite so much when a dragon is put down with a smile... Im even toying with a mounted griffon BSB character in a list too.

[Tethlis]

As mentioned in that other thread, I'm tackling (among other things) the current WoC powerbuild this weekend. I suspect it will look something like:

-Daemon Prince of Nurgle (Level 4) with the usual bells and whistles... 1+ Armor Save, 5+ Ward, Soul Feeder, breath weapon, probably Sword of Striking and either Charmed Shield or MR(3)
-Tzeentch Disc Exalted Hero BSB
-As many Core Chariots (either Khorne or Nurgle) crammed into Core, along with Vanguarding Hounds
-Gorebeast Chariots and Chimeras in Special
-Bloodcrushers in Rare

Despite my temptation to tailor for this build, I'm going to be using a functional take-all-comers list based on my 7th edition playstyle that revolved around White Lions and Phoenix Guard. I've come up with the following, which I'm pretty happy about. The major downsides here are the lack of fast combat units (just couldn't find room for Dragon Princes) and no room for Maiden Guard for those Flaming shots at range. I'm really worried about this second factor, because it makes it much tougher to kill Regenerating monsters at range, but my hope is that the default metal spell and default light spell on the Loremaster can at least help contribute some wounds. I'm tempted to give Lore of Shadow to the Archmage, for the option to double Miasma, Withering and Mindrazor. However, I'd like to know more about the utility of High Magic, and want to give it a try in a take-all-comers setting.

For the Daemon Prince, my plan is to get rid of Charmed Shield quickly and then keep the bolt throwers busy trying to knock some wounds off it. The nice thing is that with no Dwellers Below, I can safely bunker all the characters in the Phoenix Guard and walk around the table messily brutalizing anything they can actually reach. The big question though is if magic/shooting (and perhaps some action from the Phoenix) can contain the fliers while I gather easier Victory Points on the ground.

The alternate list I've built is almost identical to the following, except that it drops the Loremaster to beef up the White Lion unit, add Banner of the World Dragon, a second Eagle, and also add 10 Maiden Guard to rip Regeneration off of targets at range. The downside there is that the list only has one caster (the Archmage), therefore no support caster, no scroll, and relatively little spell variety. However, the presence of Flaming shooting makes it stronger at range.

HERO, I hope you don't feel I'm capitalizing too much on your thread, but like you mentioned it's nice to break down ways to handle the strong builds out there.


Lord
Loremaster with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Dispel Scroll.
305

Archmage (Level 4) with Book of Hoeth, Opal Amulet, High Magic
290

Hero
Noble with great weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, battle standard.
146

Core
Archers (15) with musician, standard
170

Archers (15) with musician
160

Archers (10) with musician
110

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Special
White Lions (18) with full command
264

Phoenix Guard (24) with full command, Razor Standard
435

Rare
Great Eagle
50

Repeater Bolt Thrower
70

Repeater Bolt Thrower
70

Frostheart Phoenix
240

Total: 2500