HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#121 Post by HERO »

jakshadow wrote:A couple of dumb questions - so apologies in advance....

Why the musicians on the Reavers? As fast cav cant they reform as often as they want anyways?

Is it totally outlandish to have the BoEF on the BSB? If he is in an archer bunker he is in the rear lines and it could make a big difference to a heavy shooting focused list. If things look sticky you can rush him into the unit with the AM for ward saves along with the BoTW so although asked he is less naked than previously.
No apologies needed. You won't need musicians on Reavers, did I have somewhere written to take musicians? Please help me locate if I wrote that somehow..

BoEF on BSB.. I wouldn't recommend it personally. You need your BSB to stay alive and if he doesn't because of the lack of protection, that's a serious loss to your army.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#122 Post by HERO »

Mirrored from:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/05/i-pl ... today.html

The first game was against this really nice guy who took a like-wise monster-mash list, and the second game was a against a friendly Ogres player. To my surprise when I walked in the store today, my order arrived Friday night and I was able to get the Phoenixes together. I went with double Frostheart Phoenix although I'm thinking about getting a third Flamespyre now.

As always, my BRs will consist of notes and confirmations rather than a play by play report. I decided to go this route with these so you guys can take more tactical/strategic knowledge from these.

So my first game was..
2500 points, Pitched

I had..
Prince on Star Dragon
2x Frostheart Phoenix
30x LSG FC, 2x 11x Archers w/ Mus
A big unit of Dragon Princes w/ BotWD
BSB Noble with Dragon Princes
and a Lv.2 Mage running High Magic

My opponent had..
Engine of the Gods
Ancient Steggy
2x units of big Saurus Warriors
A Old Blood on Carnasaur
2x units of Salamanders
A unit of Skinks and some lizardy flyers

Notes from Game #1
-The Attuned to Magic special rule really helps our Phoenixes' a great deal. I kept rolling +1 attack on my Frozen Turkeys and their damage output went up considerably. Never did I roll a 1 or 2, and only once did I roll the +1 Initiative. On the turn that I did get 4+ Ward, I didn't need it because I was already ahead in points and unit advantage.
-The Banner of World Dragon did not see much play in this game due to very little magic being thrown out. Sure, the Old Blood on Carnasaur had a magic weapon, but the Dragon Princes never saw him in battle. They were too busy killing a ton of Saurus Warriors on a direct charge from the front.
-The Frostheart Phoenix is worth every point, to a point where I think they might be too good. I know if there were cannons running around on the battlefield we would be having another type of discussion, but their abilities are so damn good! I combo-charged my Prince on Star Dragon into the EotG and went to town with it. It's a shame I managed to fluff all my attacks on the first go, but the fact that my Star Dragon can swing before his Steggy was impressive. In fact, he's the only one that did any damage despite my Prince having a Star Lance with ASF re-rolls.
-Blizzard Aura is absolutely amazing. You will see that in this first game and in the next game, the Frostheart Phoenix does serious work. Once he's in combat with a unit, their fighting effectiveness goes to shit. Saurus Warriors that need 4s and 4s to wound your Elves, Stegadons need 5s to wound your Phoenix, and forget about the Star Dragon. Pseudo-T8 makes him nearly untouchable with his high WS and T factored in. One of my Frosthearts even took a flank charge from the Old Blood on Carny, did 3 wounds to the dino and only saw 1 back. With S7, he needed 4s to wound, I passed 2 5+ Ward saves and he only did 1 wound which got healed back by Apothesis next round. Overall, I think the Frostheart Phoenix met my expectations and then some. The Attuned to Magic helped me in most cases and the Blizzard Aura was amazing.
-I will probably be taking 2x Great Eagles in every list still. I mean, why not? They're great re-directors and give me extra cheap drops that I can use to better position my heavy hitters. I'm not entirely sure on the LSG, but I'm pretty happy with my Dragon Princes doing work on his Saurus. I will need to see more tries with such a beefy bus before I make any more judgement.
-I talked to a couple of guys who are running tournies and leagues in my area and it's confirmed: Banner of the World Dragon will be banned. In a sense, I agree because it allows for some really stupid imbalances (Daemons), but I don't think the banner itself is overpowered. It's mainly the fact that Daemons can't touch it that's causing it to be banned, nothing else.
-My Prince on Star Dragon build was: Prince, Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Great Weapon, Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, and 4+ Ward. It comes out to 622, but I'm not sure if it's completely needed to take a Star Dragon. I guess at the end of the day, it really depends on your meta. If a lot of WS3 troops running around, and S5, then I would probably look at the Star Dragon. Otherwise, the cheaper Moon Dragon might be a solid option.

Game #2 was..
2000 points, Pitched

I had..
Lv.4 Archmage, Book of Hoeth, Crown, High Magic
Lv.2 Mage, Scroll, High Magic
BSB, Armor of Caledor, GW
24x White Lions, FC, BotWD
30x Spearmen FC, SoDisc, 2x units of 10x Archers w/ Mus
2x Frostheart Phoenixes

He had..
Tyrant, Fencer's Blades, Greedy Fist
Lv.2 Butcher in a unit of 5x Leadbelchers
A big unit of Ironguts
A decent unit of Bulls
2x Mournfang
Ironblaster

Notes from Game #2
-A smaller game for sure, and the first thing I noticed was how much I can fit in such a small game! I took all the things I wanted to pretty much because I was so impressed by the Frosthearts from the previous game. The thing to take away from this is how much we can fit with in a 2K game and still play moderately competitive. I'm sure the Frosthearts take all the glory though.
Much like the first game, I did not see one poor roll with my Attuned to Magic. Multiple times I was seeing +1 Attack, +1S and 4+ Ward. Two times I got the 4+ Ward and my opponent just said nevermind and attacked something else. That works for me!
-This is the first game I got to try out High Magic in all its glory. Sure, I didn't have the Loremaster, but after this game, I'm not sure if I really need one. Here's why: My Archmage was extremely greedy with the spells he wanted to cast. I rolled into Fiery Convocation but I decided to swap it out for Drain Magic, along with Soul Apotheosis, Hand of Glory, Tempest and Arcane Unforging.
-First thing's first, I'm not sure how much I like Arcane Unforging being a direct damage spell. I charged into combat with my White Lions early and I barely casted this thing. Being direct damage severely limits this spells use IMO. The 24" is solid and I can see this being used on enemy BSBs a lot, but not being able to use it in combat makes it a lot weaker than I originally anticipated.
-Hand of Glory is freaking amazing vs. WS3 units when you're WS5+ on your Elites and good stuff. I got this spell off a good amount of times because I squeezed out so many casts and rolled a 3 on the D3. WS7+ gives you a damage buffer against all enemies trying to hit you and that's fantastic. To make things even more exciting, the fact I got to throw out so many spells stacked up a good amount of Ward saves on my White Lion's unit. With the +5 to cast from my AM and Book of Hoeth, I managed to throw out a good amount of spells every turn. In 3 of my turns, I had 2 5+ wards and a 4+ ward on my unit of White Lions. That's a ton of reduced damage in combination with WS8 vs. WS3 troops.
-Again, the Blizzard Aura does serious work. The Phoenixes are huge because of their threat range and their ability to support any combat the way only a flyer can. My White Lions managed to pull out a 9" charge on his Tyrant's Irongut unit and my opponent just took it. Once the Phoenixes came in as support he knew he was a goner. Yes, both Phoenixes, Hand of Glory on the White Lions, -1S ASL on his unit, and +1 attack on both birds. Man, it was so good.
-With the Lv.4, almost all of the spells from the High Magic lore is playable with 2 dice, especially if you have the Book of Hoeth. I even managed to stop a high-roll on one of hi spells by turning one of my dispel dice of 1 into a 6. Bam, IF dispelled, sorry. I'm a little unsure about Soul Quench, Tempest, Arcane Unforging AND Fiery Convocation being all direct damage-ish spells, but I definitely need more games to confirm my findings. I just think I'll severely limit my magic phase if I can't cast these spells into close combat. Less casts equates to less wards being stacked up too.

Additional Notes:
-Now that I've seen the Lv.4 AM in action with the Book, I'm not so sure on the Loremaster. Spell flexibility is one thing, but like a lot of people have said before; I didn't have the dice to throw them. Realistically, you're only throwing spells with your AM. High Magic is great because of the low costs, the +5 to cast and stackable wards, but I'm unsure about a full half of the spells being DD.
-I will be adjusting some of my lists to not incorporate the Loremaster in the same list as my AM. I will hopefully fill that void with either an Anointed, or a Prince to go with my Dragon Princes. After the AM's performance, I'm not sure if I even need the Lv.2. I might take a Lv.1 with High Magic just for another a another Drain Magic. From what I've seen of the spell, I think it's amazing.
-Everything about the Frostheart Phoenix is true. The guy is an utter beast and is arguably the best support unit in the High Elf army. I absolutely cannot see me playing without this guy and I know I'll be taking 1-2 from now on in every game. However, I'm going to try out the Flamespyre Phoenix in my next game vs. Vampire Counts (maybe, want to build it first). Don't worry, the competitive crowd isn't in yet and we're just trying out new stuff. I am super excited though!
-Surprise surprise, it looks like BotWD will be banned in major tournaments in my area.
Last edited by HERO on Mon May 06, 2013 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#123 Post by RogueSun »

Any chance you could post your exact list builds?

A 'Big' unit of DPs could be 20 for all we know. Plus knowing how you kitted your Lords and Heroes will be beneficial as kitting out our characters is significantly more challenging with the new book.

Interesting combo with the Frostheart and Dragon though. Expensive, but that Blizzard Aura essentially gives you a T8 Dragon with a 2+ save.

Definitely going to have to consider that.

EDIT: One more question - the first game you only had one lvl 2 High Magic mage. Did you feel this was sufficient in terms of magic defense? Were you able to cast enough spells to be worthwhile or were you jonesing for another level 2?
Last edited by RogueSun on Sun May 05, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#124 Post by RE.Lee »

HERO wrote: Alarielle - 4.5/5
I'm going to flat out say it: She's really damn good. She gives the entire unit 5+ ward vs. non-magic attacks. Her entire unit is Immune to Fear and Terror and deal magical attacks. And she can mix and match her spells from Life, Light or High Magic. She still needs to roll for those spells. Let's face it, she has a bunch of other special rules that changes the army dynamics immensely. She unlocks a magical banner that gives spell cast from Lore of Light and Life +4 to cast. An item that gives +1 to hit on all shooting and CC for the remainder of the turn. Can once a game pop her staff to allow her to cast a spell she already cast that turn. And she heals a friendly character every one of her movement phases. Just loaded with rules, some for fluff, some for use, but all of which are all quite good. Shit, she even has HKB vs. Forces of Destruction with her beastly 1 attack. For a little more than an AM with Book of Hoeth, she's definitely the best SC in the book.
Unfortunately the banner is not very good - it only gives +4 to cast on spells directed at the unit carrying the banner (so a couple of pretty good augments from those lores). It can only be given to a BSB so that limits its use a lot...
cheers, Lee

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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#125 Post by jakshadow »

HERO wrote:You won't need musicians on Reavers, did I have somewhere written to take musicians? Please help me locate if I wrote that somehow..
No - it wasn't you. But it was in Tethlis's list...
Tethlis wrote:As mentioned in that other thread, I'm tackling (among other things) the current WoC powerbuild this weekend. I suspect it will look something like:

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95
It was also mentioned on the Dwellers podcast review of the new book. So having never used them (as many of us may not have), I wondered if I was missing something.

Just whilst we are on the subkect of Reavers, I wonder on people's thoughts on spears v bows v both. seen quite a lot of people keen on bows, but I am thinking spears might be better, in that if you really need to take out some chaff or a warmachine, you might be better with re-rollable ST4 attacks than St3 bowfire. Seems that for a redirector both makes it too costly, so I assume bow or spear is best choice, but not sure which. Though just having chopped the swords off 9 Melnibonean cavalry I hope spears was the right choice.....
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#126 Post by RogueSun »

jakshadow wrote:Just whilst we are on the subkect of Reavers, I wonder on people's thoughts on spears v bows v both. seen quite a lot of people keen on bows, but I am thinking spears might be better, in that if you really need to take out some chaff or a warmachine, you might be better with re-rollable ST4 attacks than St3 bowfire. Seems that for a redirector both makes it too costly, so I assume bow or spear is best choice, but not sure which. Though just having chopped the swords off 9 Melnibonean cavalry I hope spears was the right choice.....
I don't think you should ever be charging your Reavers into combat unless you're already engaged with something else and you're just charging into a flank or rear to give some more combat res.

Reavers job, as far as I'm concerned, is not to kill chaff. It's to BE chaff. Giving them bows helps them contribute to killing chaff, but by charging them at chaff you're 1) playing right into your opponents plans and 2) putting your own chaff/redirectors in a bad spot.

Giving them bows allows you to put them in a good spot to redirect while simultaneously allowing them to shoot at enemy chaff. If you need them to hunt Warmachines they will still provided WS4 ASF attacks which you can boost the WS of in order to help them achieve victory via combat res.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#127 Post by HERO »

RogueSun wrote:Any chance you could post your exact list builds?

A 'Big' unit of DPs could be 20 for all we know. Plus knowing how you kitted your Lords and Heroes will be beneficial as kitting out our characters is significantly more challenging with the new book.

Interesting combo with the Frostheart and Dragon though. Expensive, but that Blizzard Aura essentially gives you a T8 Dragon with a 2+ save.

Definitely going to have to consider that.

EDIT: One more question - the first game you only had one lvl 2 High Magic mage. Did you feel this was sufficient in terms of magic defense? Were you able to cast enough spells to be worthwhile or were you jonesing for another level 2?
The Lv.2 definitely didn't what I was looking for. Without the +1 to dispel, I'd rather just have a Lv.1 scroll caddy.

Here were the lists that I used. I honestly didn't even know I was under by so much since I literally just glued my Phoenixes together and got them on the table. I'm either getting old or math is hard?
List #1
2484
9 drops

LORDS:
Prince = 622
Star Dragon
Heavy Armor, GW, Star Lance, 4+ Ward, Enchanted Shield

HEROES:
BSB Noble, Dragon Prince = 161
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, PoFool

Lv.2 Mage, High Magic = 145
Scroll

CORE:
30x Lothern Sea Guard, FC = 390
11x Archers, Mus = 120
11x Archers, Mus = 120

SPECIAL:
9x Dragon Princes, FC, Charmed Shield, BotWD = 346

RARE:
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50
List #2
1951
7 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Archmage, High Magic = 285
Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown

HEROES:
BSB Noble = 149
GW, Armor of Caledor

Lv.1 Mage, High Magic = 110
Scroll

CORE:
30x Spearmen, FC, SoDiscipline = 315
10x Archers, Mus = 110
10x Archers, Mus = 110

SPECIAL:
24x White Lions, FC, BotWD = 392

RARE:
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Quick notes to self:
-Ironcurse on the supporting Lv.1 scroll caddy with High Magic. Get a spell off and gain 5+ ward vs. Warmachines. Sounds good man.
-Drop the Lothern Sea Guard, instead take 30x Spears, FC, SoDiscipline, 15x Achers, Mus, 14x Archers, Mus for a 2500 game. Comes out to 625 exactly.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#128 Post by HERO »

I had another game today, vs VC.

I will post the list, and BR ASAP. I'm eating, will write it later. In the meantime, thoughts on this list?
2500
10 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Archmage, High Magic = 285
Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown

HEROES:
BSB Noble = 149
GW, Armor of Caledor

Lv.1 Mage, High Magic = 110
Scroll

CORE:
30x Spearmen, FC, SoDiscipline = 315
15x Archers, Mus = 160
14x Archers, Mus = 150

SPECIAL:
24x White Lions, FC, BotWD = 392
25x Phoenix Guard, FC, BoEF = 405
6x Dragon Princes, Mus = 184

RARE:
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50
I don't like how I only have 1 Phoenix :'(
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#129 Post by HERO »

BR #3 is up:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/05/br-3 ... vs-vc.html

2500 vs. VC

Played a game vs. my buddy Lucas today and his VC. It was pretty bloody and pretty fun, and our lists were both middle of the line in terms of strength. Until proven otherwise, from what I've played so far, HE feels very middle of the road in army strength. Nothing too crazy has jumped out at me yet, well, aside from Banner of the World Dragon.

My list was this..
2498
10 drops

LORDS
Lv.4 Archmage, High Magic = 285
Book of Hoeth, Crown

HEROES
BSB Noble, Dragon Prince = 161
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, PoFool

Lv.1 Mage, High Magic = 110
Scroll

CORE
30x Spearmen (FC, SoDiscipline) = 315
15x Archers, Mus = 160
14x Archers, Mus = 150

SPECIAL
27x White Lions (FC, BotWD) = 431
9x Dragon Princes (FC, CShield, BoEFlame) = 306

RARE
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50

His list consisted of..
A big unit of Ghouls with a Ghoul King and Lv.4 Master Necro with Peripat
3x units of Dire Wolves chaff
A big unit of Grave Guard, Wight King BSB and Banner of Barrows
One Terrorgheist and Mortis Engine
A unit of Vargheists, I think 4-5 strong

My notes:
-OK first of all, I was overwhelmed by his magic. The Peripat is insanely good and the Mortis Engine's +2 to cast was bonkers most of the time. Most of the magic phases saw a good number of dice, but his ability to store 2 and use 2 in any of his casting and dispel phases was great. Definitely overpowered my Lv.4 even with the Book of Hoeth. VC guys take note: This combo is super strong.

-My Archers do a good job at killing chaff. He makes the mistake of Vanguarding and moving too far up and gets 2 of his 3 dog units eaten alive by my Archers. By letting Soul Quench go through, the dogs were dead rotten meat. His Terrorgheist flew up but was unable to allocate a decent target aside from my Archer unit. He screams at it and kills a few and that's OK with me. Because I have a more mobile army, I relocated most of my units on the far right and basically left my Spearmen to hold my left flank. With this one maneuver, I moved to kill with the full weight of my White Lions, Dragon Princes and both Phoenixes in a wide, sweeping arc of combo-charging death.

-Once again, the Frostheart Phoenixes prove to be awesome. Despite a minor mistake that left my Dragon Princes way out of position, I still managed to double charge his Grave Guard unit with my both my Frostheart Phoenixes. I guess the Princes of Caledor let their arrogance get to them and in doing so, were a turn late to save my White Lions from his Ghoul King. Together, they inflicted heavy, heavy casualties onto the unit. Throughout the magic phase, I did not roll a negative modifier for Attuned to Magic once, and most of the time I was rolling with 4+ Ward and +1A. Two of my Phoenixes chewed through 30 or so Grave Guard in 2 rounds of combat. S6 stomps are ridiculous and the -S modifier continues to impress me.

-Banner of the World Dragon stopped the crap out of Curse of Years. He was rolling ridiculously hot and I think I lost 2 White Lions total in 2 rounds (I failed to dispel it) of it being on. The Dragon Princes were a bit unlucky, on the turn that I failed to dispel it again, 3 of them went down. I have to keep remembering to take stacking High Magic ward saves and the Dragon Armor's natural 6+ ward save. Lucas was kind enough to remind me a couple of times.

-I miscasted a crap ton this game, I think 3 times. All of the wounds generated from these were saved by the Banner of the World Dragon due to the miscast being magical attacks. Sadly, the only thing worth noting is that I had Fiery Convocation dispelled on a crucial turn due to him having so many DD from Peripat. The rest of my magic was unimpressive except for Hand of Glory making my White Lions' unit WS7 vs. WS3 Ghouls. This negated a ton of damage.

-Well, his Ghoul King got into combat with my White Lion's unit and to my surprise, revealed absolutely zero magic weapons and continued to eat through 8 Lions per turn. It was horrifying, but thankfully Stubborn kept them in the fight. The unit eventually got whipped out, but not before my Dragon Princes and Phoenixes charge into the flanks and pop the unit due to combat res.

Things to try next time:
-I really want to try bringing only one Frostheart Phoenix just to see how it feels. Although 2x is the sweet spot, I think one will be decent since my meta doesn't have a ton of cannons so far. I'm just afraid that if the Frostheart dies, I'll be missing a vital support tool for my army.

-Putting an Ironcurse Icon onto my Lv.1 supporting Mage carrying High Magic has a chance to improve his unit's ward save to 5+ vs. Warmachines.

-I think I'll drop the Dragon Princes into MSU units for 5-6x with Mus and that's it. The bigger unit was definitely fun to play with, but I'm not so sure how excited I am to take them again. I will miss that BSB though, the protection of 1+ re-rollable combined with Dragon Armor is great. Potion of Foolhardiness is also a must-have I think in that circumstance. Perhaps a Star Lance, Enchanted Shield + PoFools for more damage. That remains to be seen.

-I want to give Phoenix Guard a try, but it's just so damn expensive that I have to drop the Phoenix or replace the White Lions. What kind of banner should I put on the PG? As of now, I'm thinking of just putting the Banner of Eternal Flame on them and call it a day. Put the Archmage in there and have him spam High Magic to bring the unit up to a 3+ ward. Sounds good, will try definitely.

Going back a little:
In the first game I had with my Star Dragon, I think I definitely want to keep the Star Dragon focused on killing bigger units. This might sound kinda low-tier, but I think I'll be sporting the Star Lance on him for a couple of games. Sword of Might is good when combined with OTS on the Star Dragon, but that's meant for more killing rank and file. Besides, the thought of 10 S7 attacks coming their way when they'll hopefully be at -S and ASL is just shit your pants worthy.

The real question:
Alarielle - Is she worth it compared to a Lv.4 AM with Book of Hoeth? Here's what I'm going to do with her: Put her in a unit of White Lions and take 1 spell from High Magic (defaults to Drain Magic), 3 from Light. BSB tots Banner of Avelorn for +4 to cast from Lore of Light. The White Lions have Banner of the World Dragon. She gives the White Lions 5+ ward vs. non-magical attacks and I always have Drain Magic so I have a chance to pump up that ward. Otherwise, I have a 2+ ward vs. all magical attacks, weapons and spells. The unit will also have a Lv.1 supporting Light mage in case I get Banishment.
Last edited by HERO on Mon May 06, 2013 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#130 Post by HERO »

jakshadow wrote:
HERO wrote:You won't need musicians on Reavers, did I have somewhere written to take musicians? Please help me locate if I wrote that somehow..
No - it wasn't you. But it was in Tethlis's list...
Tethlis wrote:As mentioned in that other thread, I'm tackling (among other things) the current WoC powerbuild this weekend. I suspect it will look something like:

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows
95
It was also mentioned on the Dwellers podcast review of the new book. So having never used them (as many of us may not have), I wondered if I was missing something.

Just whilst we are on the subkect of Reavers, I wonder on people's thoughts on spears v bows v both. seen quite a lot of people keen on bows, but I am thinking spears might be better, in that if you really need to take out some chaff or a warmachine, you might be better with re-rollable ST4 attacks than St3 bowfire. Seems that for a redirector both makes it too costly, so I assume bow or spear is best choice, but not sure which. Though just having chopped the swords off 9 Melnibonean cavalry I hope spears was the right choice.....
Ah yes,
That's because you want the +1 Ld. when rallying. Ellyrion Reavers will be fleeing a lot.
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NexS
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#131 Post by NexS »

I had my first new book battle the other day and took 5 reavers with no command (I faught against another guy who wanted to use high elves).
I admit that I didn't use the reavers 'properly' as I had to charge them into combat to support my Eagle BSB. It worked but wasn't ideal...
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#132 Post by Malcontent »

Maybe I've missed it, but is there a concensus on whether to take a halberd or great weapon on characters?
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#133 Post by NexS »

I suppose that depends on whether you want your ASF or not...
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#134 Post by HERO »

Latest musings with my Star Dragon list..
2496
10 drops

LORDS
Prince, Star Dragon = 624
HA, Shield, Dragon Helm, Star Lance, 4+ Ward

HEROES
BSB Noble, Dragon Prince = 161
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, PoFool

Lv.2 Mage, High Magic = 145
Scroll

CORE
15x Archers, Mus = 160
15x Archers, Mus = 160
15x Archers, Mus = 160
15x Archers, Mus = 160

SPECIAL
9x Dragon Princes (FC, CShield, BotWD) = 346

RARE
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50
Last edited by HERO on Tue May 07, 2013 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#135 Post by RogueSun »

HERO wrote: LORDS
Prince, Star Dragon = 621
HA, Dragon Helm, Star Lance, 4+ Ward
How important is that 2+ ward against fire for you? Seeing as you only have a 3+ armor save anyway you might be interested in this build:

Prince
Star Dragon
Shield
Armor of Destiny
Star Lance
Golden Crown
623

It evens your list out to 2500 on the dot. You'll lose out on the 2+ against flaming attacks but you'll gain some protection against a cannon.

Other than that it looks pretty friggin solid. Hopefully the Dragon Princes have been performing well enough to be relied on as the only other combat unit. Frosthearts aren't terrible, but as you've said, they're really more for support.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#136 Post by HERO »

RogueSun wrote:
HERO wrote: LORDS
Prince, Star Dragon = 621
HA, Dragon Helm, Star Lance, 4+ Ward
How important is that 2+ ward against fire for you? Seeing as you only have a 3+ armor save anyway you might be interested in this build:

Prince
Star Dragon
Shield
Armor of Destiny
Star Lance
Golden Crown
623

It evens your list out to 2500 on the dot. You'll lose out on the 2+ against flaming attacks but you'll gain some protection against a cannon.

Other than that it looks pretty friggin solid. Hopefully the Dragon Princes have been performing well enough to be relied on as the only other combat unit. Frosthearts aren't terrible, but as you've said, they're really more for support.
Oh, I forgot to write the Shield in there.
+Shield for 3 points @ 624 for the 2+ AS/4++.

List updated! Thanks for catching it :)

Yeah, the idea is to just use my threat range and positioning to place my models where I want them, clear charge lanes with Archers, and then get my units into a favorable combo-charge that just wrecks house. This list will take absolute giant shits on anything in horde formation as I'll be able to get in almost every unit; 5x wide Dragon Princes, 2x Phoenixes and a Star Dragon. The chariot-sized fronts of our heavy lifters really give us an advantage in combo-charging.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#137 Post by NexS »

Is there a reason that you only have one combat unit in this recent list?
I can see that the list is really mobile, with eagles, phoenixes and dragon, but you've only got arrows and one unit of knights.

I'd be worried about combat resolution
And they'll never run. Steadfast till death
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#138 Post by HERO »

NexS wrote:Is there a reason that you only have one combat unit in this recent list?
I can see that the list is really mobile, with eagles, phoenixes and dragon, but you've only got arrows and one unit of knights.

I'd be worried about combat resolution
And they'll never run. Steadfast till death
Oh, of course I'm worried. It's a brute force list that plays with lots of monsters, high T stuff and relies on stomps. I can definitely see some hard match-ups with this army. That's what you get for not taking a balanced list.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#139 Post by Alby »

I like the monster-heavy list, I've created something similar; and while it looks high-risk, the biggest problem is keeping the Prince alive, which is a problem with every dragon list anyway.

About your list with Alarielle, she's definitely the clear choice for a deathstar-type army, you definitely want to put her banner plus BotWD in a large group of WLs - +8 for her to cast is too good to ignore, and the defenses of the unit will be incredible. The only counter I see to this is Dwellers....

Random thought that just entered by head: as terrible as Teclis is now, he could be a candidate for a deathstar list. As the only weakness is Dwellers, he has a chance to make the enemy forget the spell for the rest of the game... probably not worth it, but an interesting thought.

I suppose another way to negate Dwellers include throwing in a unit of Eagles with ASF and mage-hunting...
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#140 Post by RogueSun »

HERO wrote: Oh, of course I'm worried. It's a brute force list that plays with lots of monsters, high T stuff and relies on stomps. I can definitely see some hard match-ups with this army. That's what you get for not taking a balanced list.
What are your thoughts on magic in a list like this? Initially my single dragon list had two level twos with a BSB but this meant only one (or none at all) Phoenix. I guess the question is do you feel the risk of having small actual combat units AND low magic potential is smaller than the reward of highly mobile (if few) hammers.

Part of me thinks this style of list, that being a Star Dragon Prince, might benefit from dropping the Phoenixes and using those points for more Dragon Princes and magic. And trust me, I can't believe I'm saying it either.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#141 Post by HERO »

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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#142 Post by HERO »

Mirrored:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/05/he-br-4-vs-vc.html

Played another game vs. Lucas' VC and this one was a killer game. Tons of action, a lot of laughs and some horrible dice.

Here's my list..
2500
10 drops

LORDS:
Lv.4 Archmage, High Magic = 285
Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown

HEROES:
BSB Noble = 149
GW, Armor of Caledor

Lv.1 Mage, High Magic = 110
Scroll

CORE:
30x Spearmen, FC, SoDiscipline = 315
15x Archers, Mus = 160
14x Archers, Mus = 150

SPECIAL:
27x White Lions, FC, BotWD = 431
25x Phoenix Guard, FC, BoEF = 405
5x Dragon Princes, Mus = 155

RARE:
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Great Eagle = 50
Great Eagle = 50

His list..
~2500
~14 drops?
Ghoul King, Red Fury, Quickblood, Peripat, Dragonbane Gem
Lv.4 Master Necro, Scroll
Wight King BSB, Nightshroud, GW, Heavy Armor
Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist
Huge unit of Ghouls that had his BSB and Wight King
Bug unit of Zombies that had his Necro
8x Crypt Horrors or something like that
5x Hexwraiths
4x Vargheists
4x units of chaff dogs
2x units of chaff bats

Image
My beautiful, unpainted models that I've had for 12 years.

My notes:

-Hey, what do you know! I have pictures this time.. kinda. Once the action started rolling, I stopped taking pictures and kept on the battle. I will say that this is probably the last time I'm going to take High Magic. That lore has been pissing me off like crazy. I'll tell you guys why: 3x Direct Damage spells and 1 condition spell in the form of Drain Magic. In a game where I roll all 3 DD and I had to swap my last spell for Drain Magic, I don't know what to tell you.

-First round of magic, I threw 5 dice at Fiery Convocation, IF, lose the spell and a wizard level, and light the Ghoul bunker on fire. Inside is his Wight King and Ghoul King, but I flat out burn down half of the unit. On his next turn, he doesn't dispel it and it further burns down half the unit. He's literally down to 10 Ghouls in that unit. I deploy the best I can to meet his chaff and I manage to shoot down a bit of the dogs but not all of them. I move very little on my turn, letting magic do all the work. He saves dice for his Peripat.

-Next round he makes bold moves and checks various locations with his chaff. However, he makes the gamble in moving his Terrorgheist far up and gambles 5 dice on Van Hels while I scroll his Wind of Death. However, I manage to dispel it and now his Terrorgheist is a little closer than he anticipated.

-I punish the mistake with a charge from my Spears and my Frozen Turkey. I cause 3 wounds from the Spears, 2 from the bird (thanks to S7 from Winds), and I lose 7 of my Spearmen. Combat res gets recorded and the thing pops into dust. I move my Eagles around for max annoyance as well as charging and winning combat vs. a Dire Wolf unit. Feelsgoodman.jpeg. My magic phase also saw a miscast (again) on from my AM vs. his Lv.4 Necro with the new Vaul's Unmaking. I find out he has a scroll wtf! and I destroy it. They tricksies us.

Image
The charge that killed the Terrorgheist.

-Next round his Vargheists charge my Spears. I hold like real men Sadly, I lose combat by one and break like a bunch of stinking cowards because my BSB is half an inch away. With Standard of Discipline, I break on a roll of 11. They're caught, run down and I lose 315 points of victorious Spears. Not feeling so good now. Magic sees nothing happen from his casting but more of his Ghouls burn down. I shit you not he's literally down to 4 ghouls now including his champ. He reforms his Crypt Horrors to receive my Phoenix Guard's eager and surely charge.

-I do exactly that and charge his Crypt Horrors with my Phoenix Guard. Look at my numbers, here's my Phoenix and watch me clear more chaff. I SR to meet his Vargheist with my Archer units and shoot at them for no effect. I feel good about my chances until I roll for magic. Double 1s; awesome. My Frozen Turkey is now thawing. Don't worry guys, I make 2 channels but now I can't cast jack shit because High Magic has 3 DD spells. Fine, I'll throw Hand of Glory, my only god damn spell with 4 dice. Guess what? I miscast again and 3 of my PG eat shit before combat even starts. Feedback hits my Lv.1 and Lv.4 taking a wound each. When combat does start, my Phoenix Guard roll a ton of hits but end up doing crap for damage. The Phoenix also rolls like crap and it's not looking good. His fat Horror things hit me back and auto-wounds my Phoenix with 5 attacks. I'm sweating beads and I roll some dice. I take 3 wounds on the bird. Caw! The rest of the attacks and stomps goes into my PG but 3+ ward and WS8 tells them no. I barely win combat and he pulls another fatty.

-So, that kinda sucked big time, let's see what happens on his turn. He places some more chaff around because he has a million more deploys than I do and reforms his Vargheists a bit. They're march blocked, they fail and they only go 10". His magic phase turns into crap as he miscasts Winds of Undeath onto himself but they barely kill anything. He raises some Ghouls with his left over dice before the fires rage again. This time, only the Ghast remains. Really? Shooting from his Mortis Engine sees him scream into the bird and kills it. I rage, but what can I do? In combat, I barely win over the Crypt Horrors despite that not going as well as I hoped. With my bird gone, I'm not feeling too confident.

-Next round sees a bunch of charges by me just to kill some chaff. I clear it up with my Dragon Princes and I charge my Archers into the Vargheists' flank. This is where things got a little hairy because the way I overran my White Lions put them far ahead where my opponent and I argued about the Ghoul King's unit getting a flank charge or not. After arguing like huge nerds, I said fuck it, let him have it. This kindness turns out to be a mistake later on. Sometime during this, I combo-charge my Eagles into some Wolves and kill them, but yeah, my Eagles run around killing undead dogs. Magic saw nothing amazing happen and my opponent stores 2 more dice. Combat sees my Phoenix Guard utterly obliterate his Crypt Horrors due to some fantastic rolling and I reform to meet his zombie unit with Lv.4. In combat, my Archers kill his Vargheists and I reform towards the action.

-Since I let the Ghoul King's unit get the flank charge on my White Lions, shit goes sour really quick. A big magic phase saw him reach 12 die, dispelling the Convocation and getting off IoN twice on the Ghoul unit with nice rolls for bringing models back. The unit regains like half its number in a single turn from being down to just the Ghast. Hexwraiths charge the Dragon Princes and they flee because I'm out of position and I can't win vs. that just yet. The Ghoul King single-handily tears the White Lions a new asshole and I'm unable to combat reform at the end because I took such a beating. Stubborn stays.

Image
Sure why not, charge my flank I says.

-The Phoenix Guard charge into the Lv.4's unit of Zombies and murder a bunch of them. I miscast again, the forth fucking time in this game and it's really starting to get annoying. His Mortis Engine makes me pick the one that feedbacks my wizards and I lose my Lv.1. My Lv.4 has 2W left as he fails to wound him. I kill an ass ton of units there, but next round he just brings them all back. The Ghoul King eats more White Lions and that unit breaks and runs.

-The rest of the game is pretty strange. I end up losing my Lv.4 to his Ghoul King once combat starts over there, but I keep both Phoenix Guard and White Lions alive to tie the game. The Dragon Princes rallies and takes another charge from the Hexwraiths, but this time I hold and flank charge them with my Archers. Combat res does them in and pops a unit I'm otherwise unable to hurt. We count up points at the end and it's a draw.

Image
I shit you not, that's all that was left.

More notes:

-I am not feeling High Magic man. Too many DD and conditional spells when I'd rather have 2-3 hexes or Mindrazor. I'm really feeling that Shadow will be the lore to go to, even if I don't get the +1 to cast or the stacking ward. I hate not being able to cast into combat and my opponent is throwing out Van Hels, re-roll wounds, raising shit left and right, seriously, enough is enough.

-The Ghoul King, F that dude. He single-handily just tanks on my White Lions because he knows the unit has the Banner of the World Dragon and I honestly think he knows that by now. I personally don't think he should of gotten the flank charge, but since it's a friendly game my care factor is low. We're friends so it's all good. If you notice, at the end I'm running away with 1 White Lion and my BSB, saving all the points from that unit. Probably just as stupid if not more than his one surviving Ghast after 99% of the Ghoul unit burned down from Fiery Convocation.

-Miscasts suck, I don't know why. Oh, and on the one turn that I needed the Phoenix to kick ass along side those Phoenix Guard, I roll double 1s for winds and the Phoenix ends up dying half a turn later. Ugh, I don't know how I punished his Terrorgheist so hard just to fall victim to back luck. Karma? See! That's why you need two of those damn birds.
Last edited by HERO on Wed May 08, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Do_Trouble
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#143 Post by Do_Trouble »

The Ghoul King single-handily tears the White Lions a new asshole and I'm unable to combat reform at the end because I took such a beating. Stubborn stays.
I'm pretty sure that you take a leadership test on your normal leadership for a combat reform if you are stubborn. Unless I misunderstood the part of: "unable to combat reform at the end because I took such a beating".
Otherwise, a very interesting battle report, and only confirms my initial suspicions about high magic beeing too situational :)

edit: oh and Direct Damage spells can be cast out of combat, just not onto the unit you are engaged in combat with. ;)
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#144 Post by Prince of Spires »

HERO wrote: If you notice, at the end I'm running away with 1 White Lion and my BSB, saving all the points from that unit.
BSB auto dies if he runs from combat though. Of course, stubborn on 9 is unlikely to flee, so it is a bit of an outlier...

Other then that, great battle report. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Do you feel this more "traditional" army performs better or worse overall then the more monster mash list of your previous battle reports?

Rod
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#145 Post by HERO »

Do_Trouble wrote:
The Ghoul King single-handily tears the White Lions a new asshole and I'm unable to combat reform at the end because I took such a beating. Stubborn stays.
I'm pretty sure that you take a leadership test on your normal leadership for a combat reform if you are stubborn. Unless I misunderstood the part of: "unable to combat reform at the end because I took such a beating".
Otherwise, a very interesting battle report, and only confirms my initial suspicions about high magic beeing too situational :)

edit: oh and Direct Damage spells can be cast out of combat, just not onto the unit you are engaged in combat with. ;)
I understand that DD can be cast out of combat, but I just didn't have valid targets to cast it at. The only turn that I was engaged with the Phoenix Guard and the Ghoul King was not in combat was the turn I hit the Crypt Horrors and rolled double 1s on winds. In the other games I've had with High Magic, the results were the same, and me wanting a Hex or Augment over the DD spells.

I changed the wording a bit.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#146 Post by HERO »

rdghuizing wrote:
HERO wrote: If you notice, at the end I'm running away with 1 White Lion and my BSB, saving all the points from that unit.
BSB auto dies if he runs from combat though. Of course, stubborn on 9 is unlikely to flee, so it is a bit of an outlier...

Other then that, great battle report. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Do you feel this more "traditional" army performs better or worse overall then the more monster mash list of your previous battle reports?

Rod
Ah, that's true. Still a draw with points considered hmm..

I really wanted to try a single Phoenix in tonight's list as well as turning my opponent's list power up. We had a similar game a couple of days before where he didn't have the Crypt Horrors and instead have Grave Guard + Barrows. It's obvious that the Crypt Horrors are better due to their inability to get stomped, solid damage output, and ludicrous regen potential. The Mortis Engine + Peripat combo is actually insanely hard to deal with. There was no dispel phase I felt that I was in a good place and I knew for a fact at least 2 spells were going to go off due to the Engine/Lv.4's +6 to cast.

This traditional army as you call it, isn't a bad army at all. The Phoenix Guard are always good in the games I've taken them before our new book, and they only got improved with Martial Prowess this new book. Reading Tethlis' BRs, I can confirm that they're just allstars all the time. I can see myself dropping the White Lions entirely and just rolling with the PG with dual Phoenix, but I'm unsure how much actual "killing power" I would lose. This army, in theory, can stand ground vs. a lot of other armies I'll face out there. I would certainly run it again vs. another player and another army. I feel by now that Lucas stopped taking magic weapons on his Ghoul King so the banner's only purpose is to stop things like screams and Curse of Years from a VC list.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#147 Post by RE.Lee »

Great battle report - the game looked thoroughly enjoyable :)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with concluding that High Magic is poor due to lack of spells that can be cast into combat. We get neither game-changing, must dispel spells like mindrazor nor augment spam (the Loremaster excels here: "Wyssans. No? Earth Blood - dispelled too? How about Miasma?").

Its interesting to see so many gamers choosing PG over WL, and finding the former superior. I have to give them a try, too.
cheers, Lee

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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#148 Post by ReluctantDragon »

RE.Lee wrote:Great battle report - the game looked thoroughly enjoyable :)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with concluding that High Magic is poor due to lack of spells that can be cast into combat. We get neither game-changing, must dispel spells like mindrazor nor augment spam (the Loremaster excels here: "Wyssans. No? Earth Blood - dispelled too? How about Miasma?").

Its interesting to see so many gamers choosing PG over WL, and finding the former superior. I have to give them a try, too.
I agree with the summation of High Magic, as well as the Loremaster. When building lists, though I have this intrinsic desire to field an Archmage. It is like I just can't accept having a level 2 caster as my primary. Blech. I have to find a way around that bias.

I have to say, so far, Phoenix Guard are just amazing. They have done everything that White Lions haven't been able to do for me. Namely, survive. :P
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#149 Post by HERO »

ReluctantDragon wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:Great battle report - the game looked thoroughly enjoyable :)

I think you've hit the nail on the head with concluding that High Magic is poor due to lack of spells that can be cast into combat. We get neither game-changing, must dispel spells like mindrazor nor augment spam (the Loremaster excels here: "Wyssans. No? Earth Blood - dispelled too? How about Miasma?").

Its interesting to see so many gamers choosing PG over WL, and finding the former superior. I have to give them a try, too.
I agree with the summation of High Magic, as well as the Loremaster. When building lists, though I have this intrinsic desire to field an Archmage. It is like I just can't accept having a level 2 caster as my primary. Blech. I have to find a way around that bias.

I have to say, so far, Phoenix Guard are just amazing. They have done everything that White Lions haven't been able to do for me. Namely, survive. :P
Right.
White Lions without ASF, feels like I'm playing with paper airplanes. I don't expect them to win anything if a Frost Phoenix isn't in support. In the case the Frost Phoenix dies, I basically draw a giant blank to what I should engage them into. I so desperately desire combat res and killing models before they get to shred me apart.

Honestly, this is why we need Hexes and Augments and why High Magic has been weak. I think my opinion of them will change radically with a lore other than High Hagic.
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Re: HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

#150 Post by RogueSun »

HERO wrote:Honestly, this is why we need Hexes and Augments and why High Magic has been weak. I think my opinion of them will change radically with a lore other than High Hagic.
How exactly do you think it's going to change with other Lores? There is literally no way to give White Lions ASF or rerolls to hit. You will never be able to get them back to their former glory. Best you can do is boost their WS/lower the enemies or let them re-roll 1's to hit, wound and armor saves.

But you can already boost the WS of your own guys with High Magic. I guess I just don't see how the Lore is going to change their performance. It's more likely that they were just effectively nerfed.
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