HERO's Guide to High Elf Glory [8th Edition]

[HERO]

Infantry-centric builds:
Lv.4 Mage, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, 4+ Ward
Lv.2 Loremaster, Armor of Caledor, Scroll
Sea Helm BSB, 2+ AS

I'm almost certain this is what I'll be rolling with.
I can't get into the chicken chariots at all, so I'll probably roll with...
2x Archer units
big unit of Sea Guard, Eternal Flame
White Lions, maybe BotWD here..?
Phoenix Guard, Banner of World Dragon?
1x Ice Phoenix
4x RBT
2x Eagles

Going for very shooty.. not sure how this is going to work out but it'll be fun to try.

[Malcontent]

He can select, choose, pick, 1 spell from each lore to use as his spells. He's basically a non-restricted Loremaster (Lv.2 dude).

What does this mean? We get to tailor to the max to our environment. To give you an idea, here's what I plan on taking on him.
Flaming Sword of Rhuin - Lore of Fire - 8+ to cast - Single target buff
Wyssan's Wildform - Lore of Beasts - 10+ to cast - Single target buff
Enchanted Blades of Aiban - Lore of Metal - 9+ to cast - Single target buff
Pha's Illumination - Lore of Light - 6+/12+ - Single/multi buff
Dweller's Below - Lore of Life - 18+ - Nuke
Iceshard Blizzard - Lore of Heavens - 7+ - Single target debuff
Enfeebling Foe - Lore of Shadow - 10+ - Single target debuff
Soulblight - Lore of Death - 9+/18+ - Single/multi target debuff

So what does this give me really.. well, us Elves like to kill things with our infantry so the +1 to wound Sword, +1S/T Wildform, and Enchanted Blades is there for +1 to hit and armor piercing. Pha's Illumination gives us protection, so does Iceshard Blizzard, Enfeebling Foe and Soulblight. Enfeeble and Soulblight combos with Dwellers to not only protect us from MCs and impact hits, or generally keep our expensive units alive, but also allows Dwellers to eat units all the easier. Enchanted Blades and Sword of Rhuin also gives us magical attacks (including ranged) and on-demand flaming so we're safe vs. Ethereal.

My main question about Teclis is about when does he choose which spells he has. Do you choose to take High Magic or the 8 Lores when you make the armylist? and if you choose to take the 8 lores, do you choose the spells you get at the beginning of the game in advance? Once I know this I will know exactly how powerful Teclis is.

Another question is whether to take Silver Helms or Ellyrian Reavers. The Reavers are more for taking out warmachines, but suffer against heaver ones, like Hellcannons and against non-warmachine targets, I'm wondering if would Silver Helms be better in this role.

[Tethlis]

Infantry-centric builds:
Lv.4 Mage, High Magic, Book of Hoeth, 4+ Ward
Lv.2 Loremaster, Armor of Caledor, Scroll
Sea Helm BSB, 2+ AS

I'm almost certain this is what I'll be rolling with.
I can't get into the chicken chariots at all, so I'll probably roll with...
2x Archer units
big unit of Sea Guard, Eternal Flame
White Lions, maybe BotWD here..?
Phoenix Guard, Banner of World Dragon?
1x Ice Phoenix
4x RBT
2x Eagles

We're on a pretty similar page as far as starting lists go. I wrote this up earlier today, being conservative with character estimates and using rumors for the rest. I made another version in my batrep discussion (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=180) that's pretty similar to what I have below, basically dropping the Dragon Princes and a bolt thrower for second Phoenix. Target saturation versus cannons with multiple Phoenixi and bolt throwers, stacking -1 Strength Debuff... Love it. I don't think it will be as spectacular as a Dragon list, but I do think the Dragon list can find some hard counters or run into trouble against really lucky dice. I like the insurance of a formidable White Lion unit, because infantry are still highly resilient, hard to shift, and don't eat up an entire Lord allowance like the Dragon does.

Lord
Loremaster with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Talisman of Preservation

Archmage (Level 4) with dispel scroll OR Book of Hoeth

Hero
Lothern Sea Helm, Armor of Silvered Steel, luckstone, battle standard

Core
Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows

Ellyrian Reavers (5) with musician, bows

Lothern Seaguard (35) with full command, Banner of the Eternal Flame

Special
White Lions (28) with full command, Banner of the World Dragon

Dragon Princes (5) with musician

Rare
Eagle

Eagle

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Frost Phoenix

[THRILLHELM]

Your AM has 2 arcanes Tethlis. Other than that I like it though.

[Tethlis]

Your AM has 2 arcanes Tethlis. Other than that I like it though.

I'll edit... That was supposed to be a "or", not both. We don't know if the AM and Loremaster can both be fully kitted, because we don't know the final point values. It's important that the Loremaster have decent protection, but he doesn't need much besides that. So if that means the AM can afford the Book, he'll get the book. Otherwise he can settle for a scroll, depending on what fits.

[Paricidas]

I dont find the spell doom&darkness on the first page. This spell Levels whole armies in my meta, is that so uncommon in other gaming Groups?

[HERO]

I dont find the spell doom&darkness on the first page. This spell Levels whole armies in my meta, is that so uncommon in other gaming Groups?

It's on the first page my friend!

Tethlis, so the two lists we want to try are near identical. I think we'll be learning a lot from each other on the next couple of weeks. What is your meta like? Mine has dual terror VC blenderbus, as beardy as you can get WoC, same kind of stuff from Lizards, and Skaven. I threw down the gauntlet at my local store as I'm trying to spam as many games as possible.

[Sihca]

Just wondering why everyone is naming frost over fire phoenix? Is the cool bird really that much cooler??

[Curu Olannon]

Just wondering why everyone is naming frost over fire phoenix? Is the cool bird really that much cooler??

Yes.

[Tethlis]

Tethlis, so the two lists we want to try are near identical. I think we'll be learning a lot from each other on the next couple of weeks. What is your meta like? Mine has dual terror VC blenderbus, as beardy as you can get WoC, same kind of stuff from Lizards, and Skaven. I threw down the gauntlet at my local store as I'm trying to spam as many games as possible.

Good call, and comparing notes is a great idea. I'll be updating my Batrep section with every game I play. I sidestepped a WM/H 50 pt Steamroller my club's hosting right around the release, and I've already managed to line up 3 opponents who opted to give me Fantasy games so I'll be busy. Once that event's over, I'll be capitalizing the Fantasy for the foreseeable future

I've got:


-Dark Elves of a few different varieties, usually revolving around Lore of Shadow/Witch Elf horde, Unkillable Lord/Dragon Lord
-Ogre, pretty standard lists. Gutstar with Runemaw Banner, Ironblasters, Leadbelchers, obligatory Mournfangs. Maybe a Stonehorn for a curveball.
-Multiple WoC players in all the filth of the rainbow. Daemon Princes, multiple Chimeras, chariots spam, Bloodcrushers always, Nurgle everywhere.
-Dwarves, great weapon hordes, the usual ~5 Warmachines, +5 Dispel Dice and multiple scrolls per round.
-Similar VC to yours, often only one Gheist, Blenderlord in Black Knight Bus
-Lizardmen, Skaven, Greenskins, Brettonia, Wood Elves, High Elves, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Empire all available with standard net lists, though not as prominently as the first choices I listed. I get a lot of exposure to the "current" meta through the regular games against Ogres, Empire, WoC, but the infantry game is still alive and well through Dark Elves and Lizardmen primarily.

[HERO]

Please don't tell me you're playing Cygnar, because that would make the third army in the third different game system that we play

-Dark Elves of a few different varieties, usually revolving around Lore of Shadow/Witch Elf horde, Unkillable Lord/Dragon Lord
-Ogre, pretty standard lists. Gutstar with Runemaw Banner, Ironblasters, Leadbelchers, obligatory Mournfangs. Maybe a Stonehorn for a curveball.
-Multiple WoC players in all the filth of the rainbow. Daemon Princes, multiple Chimeras, chariots spam, Bloodcrushers always, Nurgle everywhere.
-Dwarves, great weapon hordes, the usual ~5 Warmachines, +5 Dispel Dice and multiple scrolls per round.
-Similar VC to yours, often only one Gheist, Blenderlord in Black Knight Bus
-Lizardmen, Skaven, Greenskins, Brettonia, Wood Elves, High Elves, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Empire all available with standard net lists, though not as prominently as the first choices I listed. I get a lot of exposure to the "current" meta through the regular games against Ogres, Empire, WoC, but the infantry game is still alive and well through Dark Elves and Lizardmen primarily.

My meta looks pretty similar.
My Dwarf player moved so I'm fresh out of Dwarfs, but I have..
Lizard, lore of light and life player, likes at least 2 stegs with one EotG, huge Saurus blocks and Salamanders/Chaff.
VC loves dual gheist, I expect to see it every game, plus there's also a chance to see scream machines every now and then (are you familiar with this one?)
The WoC players are the same as yours, plus the occassional 2x Hellcannons which makes me rage above anything else. Hopefully Dragon Armor carries over to the mount? I doubt it though
Ogres are also present, looking at dual Ironblasters + the usual gutstar + Mourfangs. Not much creativity and I don't think anyone bought a Stonehorn because of the rules. I've been seeing something quite nasty as of late... running multiple Bruisers + GWs and forming a small herostar as a secondary deathstar. It's rough man, have you played this yet?
Lastly, Dark Elves. Cauldron, Wych horde, unkillable Dreadlord on peggy, 2x Hydras, RXB up the wazoo. I still haven't figured out why he has all those elements, but then I remember that that book is completely broke.

[John Rainbow]

Just wondering why everyone is naming frost over fire phoenix? Is the cool bird really that much cooler??

Yes.

I have to say, I'm not so sure. I can see the better CC application of the frost bird but you also lose the ward, the ability to regenerate, the flaming attacks (not sure if this is good/bad) and the flyover attacks. I think an argument can be made for either. Maybe we should wait and see if the rumoured special char. phoenix exists and what that does too.

[Curu Olannon]

The icebird has a ward as well as the winds of magic thingy. Furthermore it sports a 5+ armour save. Yes, it loses flaming + flyover + resurrect, but it gains a ton of stats and 2 special rules which are simply put amazing.

[The Silly Dragon]

You know that regenerate rule? i don't know the exact wording (sorry for not having the latest apple tech or whatever GW sorry i'm so poor ). But from what i read its a 1-2 is dead a 3-5 just stays as a counter and a 6 comes back? So if its still a counter at the end of the game is it counted as dead for victory points? If not then thats silly!

[Lecai]

Do you mean the "Phoenix Reborn" rule of the Flamespyre Phoenix when you're saying "Regenerating rule"? Because the fiery budgie sure doesn't have a Regen save...

Phoenix Reborn - When it dies, place a phoenix reborn counter where it died. At the end of each turn, roll a d6 for each phoenix reborn counter.
1 - 2 = Dead forever. Remove the counter.
3 - 5 = Put the large round template over the marker, all models (friend and foe) suffer a s4 flaming hit!
6+ = It rises from its ashes. Place the Phoenix anywhere within 6" of the counter, and at least 1" away with d3+2 wounds left.

[John Rainbow]

The icebird has a ward as well as the winds of magic thingy. Furthermore it sports a 5+ armour save. Yes, it loses flaming + flyover + resurrect, but it gains a ton of stats and 2 special rules which are simply put amazing.

My bad, it appears the ward is a sub-section of the attuned to magic rule which I thought was just the winds roll table thing.

Do you mean the "Phoenix Reborn" rule of the Flamespyre Phoenix when you're saying "Regenerating rule"? Because the fiery budgie sure doesn't have a Regen save...

Exactly. Poor word choice by me.

[HERO]

The icebird has a ward as well as the winds of magic thingy. Furthermore it sports a 5+ armour save. Yes, it loses flaming + flyover + resurrect, but it gains a ton of stats and 2 special rules which are simply put amazing.

The T6 alone is worth it. The ASL + -S aura is just INSANELY fantastic compared to the fire one!

Let me explain why ASL and -S aura is the one thing that really matters..
1. ASL negates a lot of issues in the current meta right now. MCs and blenderlords especially need their attacks and re-rolls to do anything. The aura takes this away from them single-handily. Unlike the Thundertusk, we outclass them in threat range and in protection (armor + ward). This is one of the reasons why VC players even look at Felbats. Negating ASF and getting in those few extra wounds to kill off some multi-wound MC gives you a definite edge.
2. The -S is also gigantic. Reduced strength further weakens those applied above AND stacks with the various spells out there. Soulblight, Enfeeble, -S is absolutely huge. Not only does it protect the bird and the rider, but also protects every other unit engaged in that particular combat. It essentially makes the Star Dragon T8, and the bird himself a natural T7 while in combat.

Honestly, I think GW dropped the ball here a little bit from the design department. Not only did they give the Ice Phoenix higher stats, but they completely ignored how powerful Blizzard Aura actually is. For what, 15 points more? LOL...

[Malossar]

I think the frost phoenix will be pretty ace if they go back to the old to wound chart in 9th edition. You know... where 6s don't always wound?

It sure would make most of the monsters pretty damn happy again.

[HERO]

I think the frost phoenix will be pretty ace if they go back to the old to wound chart in 9th edition. You know... where 6s don't always wound?

It sure would make most of the monsters pretty damn happy again.

I will say that the Phoenix is a lot more cannon friendly than a Dragon.
I will be putting a Phoenix in front of my Star Dragon every day. The chance to stop it with his chest means the world.
and, of course, not getting screamed to death by Terrorgheists/Banshees.

In fact, I think that's where our aircav runs into serious issues. The scream lists.

That's where the Banner of World Dragon is a must because all dem screams are magic attacks.

[John Rainbow]

I think the frost phoenix will be pretty ace if they go back to the old to wound chart in 9th edition. You know... where 6s don't always wound?

It sure would make most of the monsters pretty damn happy again.

That it would but I quite like the fact that you can always wound something no matter what. Changing that rule in 40k leads to some really broken combos (Swarm Lord with iron arm & T9, etc) that are almost impossible to deal with.

[Tethlis]

Ha I play Ret so no worries... Not a great pick from a competitive standpoint but it's the only way I could bring myself to pick up a PP game at all. I feel nothing for most factions.

I see aflme as being solid in the right matchups. The survivability versus flaming cannons is a plus, and some armies (lizards, elves, daemons) do hate Strength 4 hits. Not stellar but not awful in my eyes. I think they should have the elevated Strength and Toughness of the Frost though.

[HERO]

Ha I play Ret so no worries... Not a great pick from a competitive standpoint but it's the only way I could bring myself to pick up a PP game at all. I feel nothing for most factions.

I see aflme as being solid in the right matchups. The survivability versus flaming cannons is a plus, and some armies (lizards, elves, daemons) do hate Strength 4 hits. Not stellar but not awful in my eyes. I think they should have the elevated Strength and Toughness of the Frost though.

I'm willing to pit that Dragon Armor will not confer "Fireborn" to the mounts. If it did, I'm going to have a field day vs. Skull Cannons with my Star Dragon.

What is everyone's stance on shooting + Dragon elements? Meaning;
Dragon Lord
BSB with Dragon Princes
2x Phoenixes
Supporting Mage
The rest shoots - RBTs, Archers, Seaguard, Sky Chariots

Does anyone remember the old 7th Ed. Dragon Lord lists? All of them ran with lots of shooting and MSU Sword Masters (mainly to fend off those dipshit Flesh Hounds that was running amok then).

[Curu Olannon]

Ha I play Ret so no worries... Not a great pick from a competitive standpoint but it's the only way I could bring myself to pick up a PP game at all. I feel nothing for most factions.

I see aflme as being solid in the right matchups. The survivability versus flaming cannons is a plus, and some armies (lizards, elves, daemons) do hate Strength 4 hits. Not stellar but not awful in my eyes. I think they should have the elevated Strength and Toughness of the Frost though.

I'm willing to pit that Dragon Armor will not confer "Fireborn" to the mounts. If it did, I'm going to have a field day vs. Skull Cannons with my Star Dragon.

What is everyone's stance on shooting + Dragon elements? Meaning;
Dragon Lord
BSB with Dragon Princes
2x Phoenixes
Supporting Mage
The rest shoots - RBTs, Archers, Seaguard, Sky Chariots

Does anyone remember the old 7th Ed. Dragon Lord lists? All of them ran with lots of shooting and MSU Sword Masters (mainly to fend off those dipshit Flesh Hounds that was running amok then).

This is my preferred list, points permitting. Fast, mobile, hard hitting, strong ranged presence. So many facets and threats!

[HERO]

Ha I play Ret so no worries... Not a great pick from a competitive standpoint but it's the only way I could bring myself to pick up a PP game at all. I feel nothing for most factions.

I see aflme as being solid in the right matchups. The survivability versus flaming cannons is a plus, and some armies (lizards, elves, daemons) do hate Strength 4 hits. Not stellar but not awful in my eyes. I think they should have the elevated Strength and Toughness of the Frost though.

I'm willing to pit that Dragon Armor will not confer "Fireborn" to the mounts. If it did, I'm going to have a field day vs. Skull Cannons with my Star Dragon.

What is everyone's stance on shooting + Dragon elements? Meaning;
Dragon Lord
BSB with Dragon Princes
2x Phoenixes
Supporting Mage
The rest shoots - RBTs, Archers, Seaguard, Sky Chariots

Does anyone remember the old 7th Ed. Dragon Lord lists? All of them ran with lots of shooting and MSU Sword Masters (mainly to fend off those dipshit Flesh Hounds that was running amok then).

This is my preferred list, points permitting. Fast, mobile, hard hitting, strong ranged presence. So many facets and threats!

How do you feel about the Sky Bolters vs. RBTs? Would you dare cut 1 Phoenix for the potential to have 4x RBT?

[NexS]

How do you feel about the Sky Bolters vs. RBTs? Would you dare cut 1 Phoenix for the potential to have 4x RBT?

My RBTs fail me nearly every time, so i have dwindling faith in them and they rarely make their points back. I also think the sky chariots look a bit poxy. Not really a fan.
That being said, i'm not a fan of the phoenixes either.. Call me stuck in my ways...

[Malossar]

I like the Sky bolts over the RBTS because its not eating in my phoenix points! Plus they're quite mobile with M10 and being able to move in any direction as a chariot.


And if that Swooping Strike rule is on the sky chariot.... S6 Impacts plus a smattering of eagle and crew attacks...

[HERO]

I like the Sky bolts over the RBTS because its not eating in my phoenix points! Plus they're quite mobile with M10 and being able to move in any direction as a chariot.


And if that Swooping Strike rule is on the sky chariot.... S6 Impacts plus a smattering of eagle and crew attacks...

As of right now, aside from the look of the models (to each his own), but the 24" scares me.. especially if they have the move and shoot penalty. S5 is also kinda meh

[NexS]

But the question remains about move&shoot. I imagine it would be similar to the Stegadon where march and shoot is not allowed, but move and shoot would suffer the -1?

edit: looks like i've been ninja'ed...

[HERO]

@Curu
Well, the 2400 points is one thing, but I question why you chose the Dragon Mage?
I find him so subpar that it's not in my realm of understanding. If I was to make a competitive unit bucket, I would say the vast majority of our units are in.. except for him.

What remains to be seen if whether or not our Nobles can ride Dragons. If not, then we're looking at a Noble BSB here.
Let's assume he'll be ~170 points with 50 points of magic gear.
+410 points of DPs, 11x, FC (in 30ppm) with 50-point BotWD.
+625 for my Star Dragon, sorry Curu
And a Lv.2 @ let's say 150.
And of course, 625 core.
After the 2x Phoenixes, we're looking at 2460.

I think we can both agree that that's not a lot of playing space. I can see myself dropping the Dragon Princes down by 2 and adding 2x Eagles for extra deploys + assists, but otherwise it is what it is: A really powerful flying cav list, but it'll run into harder matchups where luck, deployment and skill will be your only ways out.

Now that I've seen your list and you've seen mine, let's talk about what you think our hardest matchups will be with this kind of army.

[Curu Olannon]

Going with lots of RBTs might be an option, actually. With 4 of them as well as 40-50 archers, a couple of skycutters and reaver bow makes your list go from solid shooting phase to massive shooting phase.

As for list discussion, feel free to create a topic in the army list section (or reply in mine). I`m not a big fan of derailing topics in the tactics forum with what essentially boils down to listhammer. Sure, brief analysis and examples are fine but for indepth discussion I think a standalone topic is better.

The Dragonmage I can easily see being worth it. There`s so much target saturation and he brings a lot of flexiblity with his +4 to cast and guaranteed to have 2 decent spells. However again it all boils down to points.