How to deal with chaos warrior hordes?

[caxton]

Recently I played a 1000 point game against a Chaos Warriors list that centered on a unit of about 30 chaos warriors with mark of nurgle. The warshrine got them a 4+ ward save on turn 2! No amount of shooting could stop it, my swordmasters merely watched as their swords bounced off, and even flames of the phoenix only killed 2 models after being around for 4 turns out of 6! I tried redirecting the warriors with eagles, but ultimately because of the blood and glory scenario I had no choice but to try to kill that unit somehow. Anyone have any tips on how to handle a unit that deadly?

[dabber]

Avoid it, kill the rest. Don't break and win Blood and Glory on victory points.

The only way to even slightly hurt a 4+ ward unit that costs 75% of the army total is nuke spells - Dwellers, Final Transmutation, etc. But you should not do enough damage with those to ever kill the unit.

[Keith]

Basically he got lucky with only one shrine. it isn't really a strategy until he has the terror banner, a second warshrine and favor of the gods on the unit.

[Sturen]

4+ ward is unusual unless it was a very cheesy (and stupidly expensive) chosenstar. Normally it should be slightly more manageable. It is still a rock hard unit, so I'd still suggest avoidance as dabber says. You might be able to engage it with enough magic to whittle it down and then several units of swordmasters or white lions.

[Curu Olannon]

Avoid it, kill the rest. Don't break and win Blood and Glory on victory points.

The only way to even slightly hurt a 4+ ward unit that costs 75% of the army total is nuke spells - Dwellers, Final Transmutation, etc. But you should not do enough damage with those to ever kill the unit.

+1

[caxton]

Ignoring the big bad unit makes sense. What I am not sure of is how to score VP while ignoring it. All he had otherwise was his warshrine and hounds. Those hounds spent most of the game right behind the horde. I guess the eagles need to charge hounds? Can eagles actually break them?

[dabber]

An Eagle should beat hounds in close combat. 2 attacks, 1.3 hits, 1 wound. Plus stomp is worth another .67 wounds, 1.67 wounds total. 3 hounds in contact only average 0.5 wounds on you. If you get in the flank, the one hound that can attack should do basically nothing.

The reality in 8th is that a true maxed out point-denial death star is really really unlikely to lose. But it is also unlikely to win, because it should be largely unable to get points.

[pk-ng]

Ignoring the big bad unit makes sense. What I am not sure of is how to score VP while ignoring it. All he had otherwise was his warshrine and hounds. Those hounds spent most of the game right behind the horde. I guess the eagles need to charge hounds? Can eagles actually break them?

Play for a draw. If you can't beat 'em at least dance around 'em .

And if you're playing TLOS so should be able to shoot the warhounds with archers.

[Prince of Spires]

Buy new dice.

your rolling looks very unlucky. Granted, a t4, 4+ as, 4+ wards unit is hard. But killing only 2 with 4 turns of flames of the phoenix is just bad rolling. If your opponent disspelled it every turn in his turn (so giving you only 4 rounds @ s3), you should have killed something like 9 wariors. 1 round of s4 would add about 4 to that total, killing almost half the unit. Incidently, in this instance it would probably be better to let it go to s5 instead of ending it and casting it again (5.4 kills vs 6.3). Unless you know that he would disspell it in his turn of course.

Other things do bounce of them. It takes 3 SM to do 1 wound on average. And even killer spells don't impact them as much as other units because of t4, I5, ld8.

Rod

[Paricidas]

Book of hoeth, banner of sorcery, shadow

You should get enough powerdice to get a miasma AND a pit of shades through. That is just gambling and in no way reliable, but if nothing else works...

[Curu Olannon]

With BoH Shadow you also have Withering and Mindrazor (granted, you're unlikely to get them all at once) which are good tools against these kinds of threats

[cptcosmic]

tricksters shard should atleast give 4 of your models per rank in base contact forced ward save rerolls too. you can place this item on a unit champ. then with lore of light increase the number of attacks with timewarp to turn on chainsaw mode and then reduce hits taken back with phas protection

[caxton]

Oh yes my luck is well documented to be completely abysmal. We've actually done mass rolls where my die roll would average a 2.5 after 300 rolls. Insane. My family motto is "Disce Pati" or "Learn to Suffer." Indeed, I have to be friggin Sun Tzu sometimes to win a match.

That said, I do like the idea of just ignoring the big unit. Somehow using a big spell to wipe them doesn't seem like a risk I should be taking.

[Talifan]

I will be facing some chaos armies next weekend I am sure. I will be playing some practice games to see what might work. I think Bolt Throwers will be good to reduce the Armour Save, but that ward save will be killer...however, the more Ward saves the better as not all of them will save.

[Enomiel]

tricksters shard should atleast give 4 of your models per rank in base contact forced ward save rerolls too. you can place this item on a unit champ. then with lore of light increase the number of attacks with timewarp to turn on chainsaw mode and then reduce hits taken back with phas protection

It has been argued than since loss are taken form the back, rank and files models don't suffer from the other trickster shard until there is only one rank left in the enemy units. This makes it useful only against charcters/champs either in duel or if base to base in the combat.

With banner of terror and the god's favour a tzeentch marked chosen units can quickly rises to 2+ AS 3+ ward and either +1A +1T or +1S, it certainly render it quite unmanageable: mindrazor can't get trough the ward, dwellers pits and sun are opposed by high S and I, only ultimate transmutation still has reasonable chance to do some direct damage to the units.

So we are stuck with the avoidance tactic and on top of redirector eagles I would add a bit of hindering spell like Anaheir curse, putting the chaos player through the dilemma of staying put or loosing some models without any saves. Another possible way to go at it would be multiple debuff but you are unlikely to pass enough of those spell to manage it and it does nothing against the ward.

[Talifan]

Sounds like my work is cut out for me...Im sure that if you were to hit a unit with 3 units of Swords, you could inflict enough wounds, but you also have a chance to loose 3 full units at 150 - 180 points each...

[Natwest]

Can I suggest metal?

Reduce as, better weapons and the reduced as doesnt impact on the no saves of any kind 5+ to kill.

[cptcosmic]

It has been argued than since loss are taken form the back, rank and files models don't suffer from the other trickster shard until there is only one rank left in the enemy units. This makes it useful only against charcters/champs either in duel or if base to base in the combat.

you can argue as much as you like, as long as models attack other models in base contact (and base contact of the front rank actually being a prerequisite for being able to attack the model in front of it) they profit from the shard, it does not matter where you remove the model from for simplicity (even the BRB states that this is done for simplicity).

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi caxton,

Could you tell me what units were present in both armies? And in what combat situation you found your swordmasters against hiw warriors?

Cheers!

[caxton]

Certainly! My army had a set of 17 seaguard with a mage inside. There were 2 eagles. My special was chock full of SM, a unit of 14 with FC and 2 units of 7 with champs and music. His army was his horde of warriors with a herald, a set of chaos warhounds, and a warshrine.

The first set of 7 SM got charged in round 2 on a 12....they died but delayed the horde for what I thought might be a bit more time for spells and arrows to take effect. The big unit of swordsmen charged the flank, but their swords bounced off and they lost combat by a few. They of course broke and were forced to flee through hounds for terrible effects. The last set of 7 SM hit the flank later but were also routed. That of course was all immediately in preparation for my Seaguard to fail a fear check and have their WS reduced to 0 by mark of nurgle. SIGH. I don't want to sound like I'm bitching about my luck, my opponent played a good game. I just have to be really on top of things to overcome.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi caxton,

In this set-up I would try to destroy the hounds and warshrine first while avoiding the horde. Once accomplished the situation that would give you some hope was to charge from two or three directions at the same time but not engaging from the front. So, for example, hitting from both flanks at the same time would be beneficial, because he cannot reform and cannot bring supporting attacks. Flanks are also better as in horde formation there are less attacks he can direct you. If you are worried about his character making way you might charge eagle in to keep him busy for a turn but then it gives away 3 wounds while her level character form WoC has 4 A if I remember correctly.

In general you had advantage in movement phase and in deployment. His hounds were no threat and you could shoot them down too. His warshrine would be tough to destroy but Swordmasters could do that. Eagles would perform that diversion duty. Even with very long and unlikely charge you actually were in good position. You could avoid him further as he committed his horde already or position units for multiple charge. I don't know what was relative position of other regiments so could you tell me if the flank charge was the only charge possible that turn? Could you prepare a better position for attack if you didn't charge that turn?

I am not saying it is easy and that is a guarantee of success either. Simply what I would do in your place. It is understandable you feel frustrated but you still should try to look for solution. You can even try to see what could have happened if you pulled off that double charge from both flanks and simply roll dice without units fighting. You might be winning by only single CR point but maybe it is all you would need? There is always a way, so keep looking for it!

Cheers!

[Natwest]

Instead of sm, why not dp? Then you can run round him and hit everything else with ease, and break up your core into smaller units so that if he gets one it doesnt give him hundreds of vp.

[caxton]

DP is an interesting idea. With DP I might've been able to circle around and hit his warshrine.

[Talifan]

The only problem with DPs are that they are 2x the cost of a SM...yes they have a better armour save and the same attacks, but they dont have the same weapon skill, and weapon skill is more important when trying to hit Chaos Warriors. The more hits the better chance of causing more wounds.

[Natwest]

But, in this game, wher escaping the charge of the deathstar is the most important, the extra 6 inches on a marchgives you the ability to, as was said earlier on, avoid the deathstar and kill everything else. And then add banner of swiftness on one unit and ellyrion on the other and theyl be laughing on the other sides of their faces.

[caxton]

Yeah this is supposed to be all comers though.

[Natwest]

Flanks. Run round everybody!!!
If you want an all comers list try deploying some sm or whatever you want on the flank opp. The deathstar so they can escape and be useful in other all comers games.

[Tethlis]

I have a few problems with big Dragon Prince units:

1) Combats almost always go for more than 1 turn, and Strength 3 in later rounds is ineffective.

2) You need to charge for effectiveness. If you fail a charge, or get redirected, then you're 100% out of luck. One nice thing about our elites is that they don't care at all if they charge or receive a charge.

3) Dangerous terrain tests for EVERYTHING. You can circumvent this with banners, but then you lose out on one of the truly excellent banners we usually take on our Elites (Banner of Sorcery, for example.) Losing 30, 60, 90+ points of cavalry because you charged over a fence is a major burden.

[Natwest]

I would actually suggest small units of 5, so as not to present a flank to the deathstar.