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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:30 am 
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In January our local gaming club will host a league (as per my initiative) where the purpose is to match strong lists within a comped environment and basically just play to win.

The comp is inspired by existing systems (ETC, Giant Fanatic for example) but seek to address what these systems have not, e.g. at the ETC event in Switzerland the top 3 were still top 3 (Dark Elves, Skaven, Daemons).

The goal of the comp is to bring the top tier armies in line with the rest by nerfing them. The comp is as follows:

:: General::

Armies are 2500 points and must be chosen before the league starts and cannot be changed during a round. Note: if you take VC this means you're stuck with the old VC regardless of when the book comes out for the first round. Lists will be published before the first game so everyone can see what everyone else is bringing. War Machines (of all types) are 0-2 per type and 0-5 total per army. All armies except Daemons can take Special Characters; High Elves cannot take Teclis.

:: Magic ::

One can never use more than 12 PD / DD per magic phase. One cannot generate an extra +2PD/DD per magic phase (other than channeling) regardless of source. A spell can never be cast with more than 6 dice. A dispel scroll counts as +1DD. Against the following spells characters receive a 4+ LoS if they are the only character in the unit: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway, Purple Sun, Bad Moon. Note: normal rules for LoS apply.

:: Etcetera ::

Folding Fortress not allowed. No units may reform so that they have less than 3 models per rank if they have the opportunity to have 3+ per rank. Razor Standard counts as Armour Piercing for missile weapons. For Line of Sight see the ETC size-based system.

:: Army Specific Rules::

Beastmen: n/a

Bretonnia: n/a

Dark Elves: Pendant not allowed. Max. unit size 30 for special units, 40 for core units. Hydra 0-1, Shades 0-2. Max. Xbows = 30. Black Guard 0-1. Cauldron of Blood can not be taken with neither Shadow Magic nor a Hydra.

Dwarfs: Spellbreaker + Spelleater are 0-2. May generate up to +4DD rather than +2, as long as you do not take an Anvil. Slayer characters are 0-3. Spellbreaker, Spelleater counts as +1DD. 2 Bolt Throwers counts as 1 War Machine towards the 0-5 restriction.

Daemons: All gifts are 0-1. BSB cannot take both icons and gifts. Max. unit size 30, for Horrors it's 50. Flamers 0-1. Bloodletters and Heralds of Khorne are 0-3. For each character you take you need a core unit of the same allegiance.

Empire: Steam Tank 0-1. Wizards with Lore of Light 0-3. Steam Tank counts as 2 War Machines.

High Elves: Book of Hoeth cannot be combined with other Arcane Items nor Banner of Sorcery. Max. unit size 30 for special units, 40 for core units. Wizards with Lore of Light are 0-3. Sigil of Asuryan and Vortex Shard counts as +1DD.

Lizardmen: Becalming Cogitations and Cupped Hands may not be combined with a dispel scroll nor eachother. Scouts are 0-2, infantry skirmishers are 0-4 units. Salamanders are 0-2 models per army, terradons 0-6 models.

Ogre Kingdoms: Hellheart cannot be combined with dispel scroll. Ogres (all types) have a max. unit size of 10.

Orcs and Goblins: Fanatics are 0-7. 2 Bolt Throwers counts as 1 War Machine towards 0-5

Skaven: Slaves are 0-2 and max. size 40 models. Gutter Runners are 0-2. All rare are 0-1. Grey Seer is 0-1, Warlock Engineers 0-3. Doomrocket not allowed. Furnace cannot be combined with Screaming Bell.

Tomb Kings: n/a

Vampire Counts: Wraiths, Varghulf, Black Coach and Terrorgheist are all 0-1. Max. unit size 40, Blood Knights max. unit size 6.

Wood Elves: n/a

Warriors of Chaos: Infernal Puppet cannot be combined with dispel scroll. Chosen max. unit size 15. Hellcannon 0-1. No model nor unit can have a ward save better than 4+

So the rules are set in stone - for now. The idea of the league is to run rounds of 5 games over 10 weeks so that participants have 2 weeks to play a game. Between rounds, evaluations are posted and comp is adjusted. This initial comp was the result of discussion between members of the forum.

So - why am I posting here? Well even though we've decided this is it for the first round, I'd like to hear what you all think. Later on, we can compare results to what everyone's initial reaction was like.

Regards,
~Olannon

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:37 am 
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Quote:
A dispel scroll counts as +1DD.

huh? how will that in any way balance the game. Automatically dispelling one spell per game isn't broken. It balances the magic phase out. Still the advice I would give is just stay clear of this item. for 20pts, it just ain't worth it.

Quote:
Vortex Shard counts as +1DD.

What!!!!!????? 75 pts for plus 1 dispel dice? How is it fair to negate the magic phase, a phase in which High Elves are supposed to be powerful?

Quote:
Ogres (all types) have a max. unit size of 10.

Don't give Ogres any horde formations, but hordes of 40 ghouls and 40 grave guard are still fine? I think you have missed the VC boat. The fancy toys aren't all that make the list scary. A massive combo of two loremaster vampires, the crown, the random +1A rod thingy, van hells etc, or just a few of those things, are what make VC's tick.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:17 am 
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What I do not like:

Steam Tanks that are healed back to full by lore of life.

Vampires with bloodtrinker, red fury and a 2+ wardsave against fire in a drakenhof-unit.

Death slanns with the skull of xy who simply onehit any character model.

The crown of command in general

Sirene Song (?)

dwarfs with two str 5 heat-seeker grudgethrowers

Infinite amounts of warriors of Tzeench

Hellheart

Named character models

The abundance of any general restrictions concerning unit size

Infinite amount of loremasters


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:37 am 
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Elf_And_Safety wrote:
Quote:
A dispel scroll counts as +1DD.

huh? how will that in any way balance the game. Automatically dispelling one spell per game isn't broken. It balances the magic phase out. Still the advice I would give is just stay clear of this item. for 20pts, it just ain't worth it.

Quote:
Vortex Shard counts as +1DD.

What!!!!!????? 75 pts for plus 1 dispel dice? How is it fair to negate the magic phase, a phase in which High Elves are supposed to be powerful?


Are you familiar with how most comps work? An army is limited in the number of extra dispel dice they can produce. We aren't changing what the items do, we are just using 'dispel dice per turn' as currency to measure them. You can generate no more than 2 DD per turn, but if you take a dispel scroll it counts as though you had an extra DD a turn and so you can only generate 1 more. This won't affect armies like HE. It affects armies with old rules that can easily produce rediculous amounts of casting and dispel dice every turn, such as lizards, dwarves, empire, dark elves.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:39 am 
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Why are dark elves required to take shadow or hydra in order to get the cauldron?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:35 am 
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The main thing I took away from this comp is that it is very hard on Ogres.
Curu Olannon wrote:
No units may reform so that they have less than 3 models per rank if they have the opportunity to have 3+ per rank.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Ogre Kingdoms: Hellheart cannot be combined with dispel scroll. Ogres (all types) have a max. unit size of 10.

These 2 combined realy hurt ogres I think.

I understand the idea behind the first point and I think the idea itself is worth it. Prevent conga-lines. However, it hurts monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry. I can imagine a fair few instances where as an ogre player I would want to put a unit 2*2. For instance, a unit of 4 leadbelchers. Great as flank protectors and flank chargers, and they don't lose out with the reduced frontage.

I don't realy see the point behind limiting ogre units to just 10 models. Yes, you prevent ogre deathstars. However, this is the main competative build for ogres and by no means is it unbeatable.

Personally I also think that the hard 12 PD cap is a bit hard. Especially combined with the Lore of death attribute. There are very few armies that can ignore the normal 12 PD limit without using a powerstone. And these can be dealt with on a case by case scenario I think. The main ones I can think of are DE, Lizardmen and skaven. The dragon mage also falls into this category. But the only reason to take him is because he generates extra PD, and even then he's not realy worth it.

Something that perhaps should be specified in your comp-system is wether or not 7th ed. army book spells can be cast into combat or not.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:35 am 
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eriktheguy wrote:
Are you familiar with how most comps work? An army is limited in the number of extra dispel dice they can produce. We aren't changing what the items do, we are just using 'dispel dice per turn' as currency to measure them. You can generate no more than 2 DD per turn, but if you take a dispel scroll it counts as though you had an extra DD a turn and so you can only generate 1 more.


Ok that way seems more fair, what E&S thought (as I did at first) was that the item's effect was replaced with the effect "generate 1DD". If this rules is written as such in the reference document for you and your players I recommend replacing with "count as 1DD toward the 2DD generation limit per phase" to avoid any confusion.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:40 am 
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My only issue is comping Ogres.
As a new book i thik it's pretty balanced. Hellheart and Dispel scroll is all good and well, but will leave the caster rather naked!!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:59 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
One can never use more than 12 PD / DD per magic phase. One cannot generate an extra +2PD/DD per magic phase (other than channeling) regardless of source.
I think putting in both those limits is dumb. Just leave it to extra +2 and then the max is no big deal. Allow a double 6 roll to actually be better than 6+4.

Curu Olannon wrote:
Against the following spells characters receive a 4+ LoS if they are the only character in the unit: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway, Purple Sun, Bad Moon. Note: normal rules for LoS apply.
I like this one a lot, but I would make it 2+. That really incentivizes 1 character per unit.

Curu Olannon wrote:
No units may reform so that they have less than 3 models per rank if they have the opportunity to have 3+ per rank.
Awesome!!!


Why do some armies get max unit sizes and others don't? A general catch all of 50 models / 500 points (or 40/400, or something like that) seems completely appropriate. Then perhaps apply alternative limits to specific units. Or is that already in there and I missed it?

You allow the VC Terrorgheist, and limit it to 0-1, but you put no limit on the VC wraith heroes? From what I've seen, spamming those heroes is far more broken than the Terrogheist.

Why do WoC get a limit of 4+ ward save, but no one else does? Why are they dis-allowed the dragonhelm? (maybe you didn't mean it this way, but it reads this way).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Vindicated Strategist
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Thanks for the feedback! First of, some of you complain about Ogres. I do believe that in this comp, Ogres are one of the strongest lists. Their magic is hardly affected at all, most of their options are the same (10 is still enough for a good deathstar, mind you), they can still take 2 ironblasters etc. I firmly believe that their comp does not need to change. As of now though, it doesn't look like anyone'll take them.

As for Empire STank/Lore of Life - is this usually comped? We have no local empire players so this is rarely a problem. Vampires might prove to be a problem. Lz are fairly comped as is. If the death-slann trick is taken and proves to be too much, it'll be comped next time around. I don't believe this is a good build considering the comp though. Crown of Command I don't see a big problem with here - who can really abuse it? Siren Song is 0-1, removing it completely is overkill in my opinion, considering the existing comp for Daemons. Dwarfs are fairly comped as is, don't believe they need anything further. Warriors of Tzeentch - how is this a problem? Infinite loremasters - who can abuse it?

@erik - DE simply can't take Cauldron with EITHER shadow magic OR a hydra. In other words, taking a Cauldron forces you away from the other 2 powerful tricks they have.

@rod - I'd like to hear your reasoning for the comp being hard on Ogres. Your arguments didn't take into account the comp placed on existing power-armies nor available builds for them. As for 7th ed spells - we treat these as the new types (e.g. Vaul's unmaking is a hex) and as such follows the new rules 100%, disregarding army book entries.

@dabber - perhaps VC isn't comped enough. These kinds of builds are very rarely seen around here. What we usually see is magic heavy (+4 PD ...) and busses. As for the Look out, Sir - it's to disencourage using the spells to auto-snipe a character. Just reducing the chance by 50% is huge as far as tactics are concerned. The idea is not to make the characters immune but rather to make someone think twice about casting Dwellers on a unit of 10 Archers with a mage rather than 30 Swordmasters. I considered 3+ but we'll try 4+ first and see how this plays.

Max sizes are introduced to deny the common super-builds that usually steamroll everything. If I've missed any I guess someone'll try to take it and we may have to comp it next round.

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Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:37 pm 
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I think these look fine, if implementing this sort of comp is your thing. Some of the adjustments seem too strong in my eyes (only generating +2 Power Dice per phase is tough on armies that need magic) while a lot of the limitations don't seem like they would come into play that often (I can't think of any Dwarf army that takes more than 5 warmachines anyway...)

I would be curious to see some sample lists from this sort of environment. I like seeing the Book of Hoeth allowed, even if there's a limitation on using it in conjunction with Banner of Sorcery.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Curu, I see that we both have a total different understanding of what "comped" means. I only know of ETC comps and our local (national) comps that a very very different (from yours and from each other).

I dont remember ETC, but most ACs I have played so far all had the sentence "life magic cannot be used to heal monsters and charriots" or "LM [...] models that have more than 3 wounds in their profil". Is it necessary? I do not know, Imho it is better to "undercomp" than to "overcomp". Have you ever tried to play HE with 10 powerdice and a max. of 4 dice per spell? Thats what we are running here at the moment (It grades HE down to their woody cousins...)

What I have heared of the ETC, the regenerating Vamp breaker with fireresistance and bloodtrinker was very hard to come by (as nobody really played metal magic) in an army that is already over the top.
One club college of mine witnessed a game of the ETC where two chaos armies (mirror) deployed faces to the table edge so they could not see each other (and so the sirene song would not force a charge). They got into charging distance by moving 2-3 inches backwards every turn, I do not think that makes for good games.

My club has been writing ACs for over a year now ad we have not come to any agreement (imho the strongest armies with our AC are ogres and Khemri, while woodies and beastmen still suck it up...).
I do not think that one single person can write or even really comment on a whole AC, so I would just suggest you simply try and see what made games good and what made them boring/undesirable or blantly completly IMBA. If I ever had to play with your AC I would happily do so, as it is refreshimngly near to theoriginal army books of GW.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@dabber - perhaps VC isn't comped enough. These kinds of builds are very rarely seen around here. What we usually see is magic heavy (+4 PD ...) and busses.
It just looks like a clear oversight. Spamming wraith heroes is at least as bad as the Terrorgheist. You allowed the Terrorgheist, but limited it to 0-1. If you allow the wraith heroes, they need to be limited too.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:09 pm 
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dabber wrote:
It just looks like a clear oversight. Spamming wraith heroes is at least as bad as the Terrorgheist. You allowed the Terrorgheist, but limited it to 0-1. If you allow the wraith heroes, they need to be limited too.


Agreed. That's a good example of how comp in some areas will encourage strength in others. You can limit the options seen in Rare, but that's going to encourage a bus of Skeletons/Ghouls with a front rank of Cairn Wraiths, since they're not impacted by the Rare restrictions and also don't need heavy spell-spamming support to win fights effectively.

It might not be fair to go through and cherry-pick specific circumstances where the comp still allows broken builds, but I do think it goes to show that no ruleset is going to eliminate potentially strong builds.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
@erik - DE simply can't take Cauldron with EITHER shadow magic OR a hydra. In other words, taking a Cauldron forces you away from the other 2 powerful tricks they have.

Okay, you should probably use 'either' instead of 'neither' in your comp rules as well then.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:46 am 
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Are you familiar with how most comps work? An army is limited in the number of extra dispel dice they can produce. We aren't changing what the items do, we are just using 'dispel dice per turn' as currency to measure them. You can generate no more than 2 DD per turn, but if you take a dispel scroll it counts as though you had an extra DD a turn and so you can only generate 1 more. This won't affect armies like HE. It affects armies with old rules that can easily produce rediculous amounts of casting and dispel dice every turn, such as lizards, dwarves, empire, dark elves.


sorry, I am an ignorant when it comes to tournaments

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