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 Post subject: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:34 am 
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Right, my mate runs a mean Ogre list that hasn't been beaten yet. I don't remember all the specifics (haven't played him in 2 months), but it looks a little like this:
9 - 12 Bulls with Runemaw Banner
Tyrant, Butcher, Bruiser in unit
9 Bulls
Big group of Knobblars
Big group of Knobblar Hunters
One of those Gutless Ogre things that come off the table edge
Scrap Launcher

Now, charging the ogres is foolishness, as they tear up elves easily. Gut magic also makes them like toughness bajillion with regen. He's very fond of taking a feedback scroll to pop my mages on big casts and NOTHING gets past that Runemaw banner.
I really want to be the one to end his winning streak. Any advice?

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:42 am 
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Well played Sir
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Mindrazored PG?

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:01 am 
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Book of Hoeth with Purple Sun or pit of shades.

Bulls are only I2 and his tyrant is also only I4, really low for a character.

What does the Runemaw banner do? I have only ever faced Ogres once, and that was in 7th years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:21 am 
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Runemaw bounces a spell targeted on the unit onto a friendly unit within 6", on a 2+ IIRC.

I'd look at eagling that Deathstar and killing the support. What list are you running Phloop?

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:01 pm 
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That's an awesome banner! But purple sun/pit of shades would have no issue with it, since neither of them target a unit. :-)

I guess you just have to watch for that feed back scroll.

Also agree with spellArcher, slowing it down with eagles/reavers is a good call.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Pit of Shades is a direct damage spell, and thus does target a unit. Only the vortex (Purple Sun) avoids targetting a unit. Just read the spell casting instructions closely if you don't believe me - there is a step for "pick your target".

Remember that all Ogre buff spells are "remains in play", so you can dispel them in your magic phase. No useful ogre buff spell should ever get past that.

If you want to actually kill the unit, Phoenix Guard with Mindrazor should slaughter it. Take a big enough unit and if you don't get Mindrazor off once, you'll hold on Steadfast and get another chance to cast it.

Why is Feedback scroll such a problem? Take the 4+ ward that goes on most level 4s and the average damage from a feedback scroll is 1 wound.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:57 pm 
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I've never faced this army but I've heard lots about this build - the Orge deathstar (great name).

Its an all eggs in one basket build, so top priority is to isolate it. Kill the supports quickly, cavalry and magic should do. Eagle the scraplauncher. While your doing this, lead the deathstar on a merry dance around the table using eagles and cavalry, fleeing the charges and drawing him into terrain. Try to soften it up using BTs and archers for a few turns. Then when the time is right, jump on it from all sides with elite infantry and cavalry, use WLs and the Banner of Ellyrion to get through terrain to make this happen. Then buff all units to shit and trust to Elven combat prowess!

There's little shooting so most units should make it into combat reasonably ok.

Damage is the name of the game, so opt for Lore of Fire.

Or you could be boring and spam Purple Sun/Pit of Shades :D

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Purple sun. It was built to hose low I deathstars such as that. It doesnt target the unit so the banner will have no effect.
Add teclis or BoH for added reliability, thhough ogre rarely take more than a lvl2 currently due to auto-loremaster on all casters

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:10 pm 
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I find it quite sad that everyones suggestion on how to tackle something is "pop the lvl 6spell" pff archmages are for pancys!

Dragon princes if possible buff them with +1 str (wyssans for example) or wither the ogres so that you wound on 2+ and be sure to dispell all the buffs on the ogres alternativly have the flaming banner to deny regen. you get a decent killing unit of dragon princes with music for ONLY 160points its seriously nothing. and their 2+armour should hold them alive quite good consider ogres "only" have an average str of 4/5 (If I recall)

Silver helm buss not many people seem to actually use them but I do!! I currently use a unit of 10 with full command 270points its a BARGAIN :mrgreen: against ogres they got exacktly the same hiting power as dragon princes only that they are more resistant to damage do to more bodies avalible.

a bigger unit of ellyrion reavers with spears in the flank (like 10of them) should probably work you will get 10 rerollable ws4 str 4 attacks + horses he can MAXIMUM (assuming no character) kill 6of yours so you will probably win that combat and even if you loose it wont be by much making him stand there and either have your reavers in the flank or reform giving you a nice flank charge after with something heavy.

and as said before a great way to go is trying to get the flanks or rear (this isnt that hard to accomplish with cavalry).


other then that big unit of Swordmasters will probably work quite well especially if you can get them to S6 or reduce enemies T to 3 with magic (not needed tho but it helps)


Really there is quite alot of ways to deal with them the hard part is to remember to dispell the RIP spells :P (talking from experience I really suck at dispelling RIP)


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:38 pm 
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If regen is a big problem the I'd consider giving your archer unit the flaming banner and lead off shooting with them, then follow up with RBT (if you have them).

Lead the deathstar around w/ eagles and cavalry while you plinking away at it and deal with his other units. When you're ready, combo charge the deathstar; since you can't count on getting spells through on him, focus on buffing your own in the usual ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Flaming swordmasters with mindwayzor will tear them to pieces, get shield of saph on them too and the swordmasters should survive for the most part.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:12 am 
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It's easy to say "use magic".

However, just in case magic doesn't go your way...

Eagles to slow that big block. If you need to, sacrifice your archers or spearmen to further delay it. Don't let it reach any unit of yours that's valuable. Push strong up a flank to kill everything else, avoiding gnoblar blocks when possible.

The Ironguts are pretty much unassailable because the characters are too durable and hit hard enough to nullify any wounds you do. I think that focusing on the smaller targets is easier. Deathstars rely on opponents thinking they can crack them, and then cashing in on Victory Points when the opponent fails. I find it's rarely worth going after a Deathstar unless you can really, really stack the odds in your own favor. If you have any doubt at all, then focus on taking out the other units.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:21 am 
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Tethlis is correct.

A friend at our LGS plays the Ogre Deathstar list (doesn't mean much in a month or two) but the most reliable way to beat it is to delay it and avoid it.

In my list, I toss both eagles at it and sacrifice my 150pt DP unit to it. I gobble up everything else. I win every time.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:57 am 
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I agree with those who say to tie it up and lead it around. A Star Dragon Prince could wreak havoc on the rest of his army if you can put the Scraplauncher out of commission. In fact, a fast moving army with proper redirection and the Star Dragon for offensive power should be able to leave his Deathstar isolated.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:49 pm 
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I play ogres, and it all depends on how he runs his Deathstar, and what points he playing at. Either way here's a few ideas.

*Building a Nobles, Princes, and Dragon Princes deathstar of your own. Had an opponent hit me with 5 Characters w/ GW's, and Savage Beasts spell... completely destroyed my Ogrestar.
*White Lions would really hurt his Ogres (base Ogre T4, with HA at best).
*RBT's are viscious to Ogres (because of D3 wounds).
*Majority of the good Gut Magic spells cause wounds to the spell caster, so let him cast those spells, and dispell his Bloodgruel spell when he attempts to cast it (allows spell caster to get back a wound). Then on your Magic phase dispell his remainds in play spells.
*scraplaunchers have a "must make LD 5 or charge" rull so a fast unit could lead them around the field
*Gorgers (the thing that comes in off the table edge), can't charge the turn they come in. All they'll do the turn they arrive is stand next to your back field unit. So just shoot them (they have no armour, but do have T5 and W4).

Like everyone else has stated, either ignore the deathstar and kill everthing else, or just wait 2 weeks and play him when the new book comes out and changes everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Thanks for the advice, guys! I haven't played him again yet (hence my radio silence) but I've got a better idea on how to kick him around now.
I think it's a major psychological block playing against big blocks that have 3 wounds each.
But yeah, in 2 weeks everything might change again.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:35 pm 
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http://www.e-figures.com/store/septemberpreorders.php

Looks like everything is definetly going to change in 2 weeks. Preorders are up at retailers for Ogre Kingdoms release on Sep 3rd. With that in mind, from what the rumors are stating, Ogres are going to take a step to the fair and balanced side. Ogre Magic is going to be standardized (nerfed), Magic Items are going to be simplified (nerfed), its going to be harder for Ogre players to play they way that has been working for them.

Perfect time for you to get a game in during the new learning curve :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:14 pm 
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I don't know if I would characterize it all as a nerf. True, the magic items are changing, but Ogres relied heavily on the basic armybook magic items for their survivability anyway, so that's not major loss. Their Core units are getting cheaper too, so big Gutstars are still going to be functional. Don't forget that they're gaining some major advantages in other areas... With Gnoblars coming in a few different varieties, including the Dangerous Terrain-inflicting trappers and the truly excellent looking Sabertusk packs, I expect Ogres to have much stronger control of the movement phase. They also have multiple different ways of inflicting Always Strikes Last upon the enemy, so get ready to have a lot of games where we're striking slowly without the benefit of re-rolls. I don't know exactly how this is going to interact with Speed of Asuryan, but it's probably going to be uncomfortable for us.

I'm very excited to see what their release looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:54 am 
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Indeed... with the ability to take sabertusks in 1-10, and core groups of gnoblars in 10s, ogres have gained really excellent crap drops/redirecting ability, and scouting maneaters (or sabertusks) can do a rather decent job of sneaking into the backline.

The magic items I agree are in general not a big loss since the BRB items are of greater utility (except for the late and lamented mawseeker). Of interest will be to see if the revised army book items function better compared to those from the TK/OG books.

Ogres will be gaining alot more flexibility/variety with the new release and I think it'll be great fun in a few weeks both to try out a new ogre list, and to fight one.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Well thanks guys. I was trying to give Phloop a confidence boost. :D

Either way, new book means new learning curve, which is a good time to play against that ogre player. I know I'm usually not at my best when I'm trying out new units or new rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:09 am 
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I carefully read the speed of asuryan, and the rule for the always strike last things, that the new ogres have. They do cancel each other out! Not good!

We will strike in INITIATIVE ORDER! With no re-rolls. But, i still believeing chucking as many pts worth of swordmasters will crack anything they have. MAYBE with a bit of magical help. :)

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Last edited by commander on Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:13 pm 
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I think that getting rid of re-rolls is quite brutal. When you think about taking on a high-offense, low-defense army like High Elves, it's important to stack advantages in as many increments as you can.

So while losing out on-rerolls to hit is annoying, the High Elves will still do major damage. However, if you add in some other factors:

1) Any Gut Magic augment or hex. We obviously don't know 100% what forms those augments will take yet, but we assume it's along the same lines as the current lore. So that means that Regeneration, +1 Toughness, anything along those lines will reduce effective killing power even further.

2) Impact hits. We know these are going to be present in many forms, and obviously they're bad news for any High Elf players to confront.

3) Ogre characters: They're still durable and potentially hard to kill, even without magic augments, and they occupy a lot of frontage area that potentially denies some of our troops the ability to hit fragile rank-and-file troops.

4) Multiple combats: It's going to be easy for Ogres to pack a big, hard-hitting monster in corner-to-corner with our blocks alongside a standard Ogre infantry block. Obviously, an Ogre monster that does impact hits, regular attacks and Thunderstomp alongside a regular hit will be ugly.

So while no one of these factors is potentially crippling, the combination of all of them sounds like a pretty decisive charge by an Ogre Kingdom unit. We as High Elf players know the importance of stacking augments/hexes to help tip a combat, while simultaneously bringing overwhelming killing power to bear in our favor. Ogres will follow a similar approach to try and make the odds overwhelming.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:39 am 
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Quote:
I carefully read the speed of asuryan, and the rule for the always strike las things. Its not good.

We will strike in INITIATIVE ORDER! With no re-rolls.


What did I miss? Did the HE FAQ change overnight?


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Their talking about the Ogres ability to give units Always Stikes Last, and how it will effect us and our Speed of Asuryan.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Tethlis wrote:
I think that getting rid of re-rolls is quite brutal. When you think about taking on a high-offense, low-defense army like High Elves, it's important to stack advantages in as many increments as you can.

So while losing out on-rerolls to hit is annoying, the High Elves will still do major damage. However, if you add in some other factors:

1) Any Gut Magic augment or hex. We obviously don't know 100% what forms those augments will take yet, but we assume it's along the same lines as the current lore. So that means that Regeneration, +1 Toughness, anything along those lines will reduce effective killing power even further.

2) Impact hits. We know these are going to be present in many forms, and obviously they're bad news for any High Elf players to confront.

3) Ogre characters: They're still durable and potentially hard to kill, even without magic augments, and they occupy a lot of frontage area that potentially denies some of our troops the ability to hit fragile rank-and-file troops.

4) Multiple combats: It's going to be easy for Ogres to pack a big, hard-hitting monster in corner-to-corner with our blocks alongside a standard Ogre infantry block. Obviously, an Ogre monster that does impact hits, regular attacks and Thunderstomp alongside a regular hit will be ugly.

So while no one of these factors is potentially crippling, the combination of all of them sounds like a pretty decisive charge by an Ogre Kingdom unit. We as High Elf players know the importance of stacking augments/hexes to help tip a combat, while simultaneously bringing overwhelming killing power to bear in our favor. Ogres will follow a similar approach to try and make the odds overwhelming.


+1

I think the new way to apporach ogres is not to just go straight into combat as we usually do, i think magic will be a big tool for us, and we should take advantage of that. Also, i play agressively with my elves, i think we should continue this way, make sure you get the charge off, if at all possible, and use as much magic, and missles to force them to have to advance quickly, if played right, this should deny them the charge.

And magick the always strikes last thing to death if at all possible.

As i was reading throught the WD, its not good for most players either. Empire rely heavily on there cannons, and now, for some of their monsters, "and wound doing more the 1 wound, has the number of wounds halved" and im pretty sure it means down. So even if we use bolt throwers (mind you, this is against the big things, not normal ogres) we can only do a wound. If i remembered correctly its down...

Kulgan wrote:
Quote:
I carefully read the speed of asuryan, and the rule for the always strike las things. Its not good.

We will strike in INITIATIVE ORDER! With no re-rolls.


What did I miss? Did the HE FAQ change overnight?


This was in reference to their big beast thing which make us have ASL. Cancels out our ASF. :(

Note: If i get any of this wrong, feel free to correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Quote:
This was in reference to their big beast thing which make us have ASL. Cancels out our ASF.


Thank you for clearing that out, but it was nearly impossible to understand without having read this rule yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Kulgan wrote:
Quote:
This was in reference to their big beast thing which make us have ASL. Cancels out our ASF.


Thank you for clearing that out, but it was nearly impossible to understand without having read this rule yourself.


Next time i should be more clear- i've edited my post for clarity.
And it's true. I'm so used to being up with all the new stuff (espicially for fantasy as it's my first love, and still is).

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Quote:
I carefully read the speed of asuryan, and the rule for the always strike last things, that the new ogres have. They do cancel each other out! Not good!

We will strike in INITIATIVE ORDER! With no re-rolls.


But, High Elves with great weapons already have the ASL rule, as per the great weapon ruling in the BRB. This ruling is overrided by the HE FAQ. So unless the Ogre book specifically states their ASL rules overrules any ASF rule, nothing changes for High Elves.

The only thing that would make a High Elf strike last is when in contact with the WE Amber pedant for example, because the wording is quite clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Kulgan wrote:
Quote:
I carefully read the speed of asuryan, and the rule for the always strike last things, that the new ogres have. They do cancel each other out! Not good!

We will strike in INITIATIVE ORDER! With no re-rolls.

But, High Elves with great weapons already have the ASL rule, as per the great weapon ruling in the BRB. This ruling is overrided by the HE FAQ. So unless the Ogre book specifically states their ASL rules overrules any ASF rule, nothing changes for High Elves.

The only thing that would make a High Elf strike last is when in contact with the WE Amber pedant for example, because the wording is quite clear.

Tricky this one. The wording of SoA is very specific. HE get to ignore ASL penalties for weapons, but if ASL comes from a different source it affects HE.

So it depends on the actual wording of the item wether it affects HE or not. If it sais something like "your opponent gets the ASL rule" then it affects HE. If it sais something like "the opponent strikes last just as if he is wielding a GW" it probably doesn't affect HE.

As for the actual item, I'm not overly concerned. it's 1 item on 1 unit. Shoot it to bits, divert/stall with eagles/ magic it, send a big unit of SM into it... Lots of options. And it's not as if we never face ASF units (which also cancels our ASF...)

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: Ogres! Tactics!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:50 pm 
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I think Ogre tricks will certainly be changing some: simple things, like removing Luck Gnoblars, the +1 toughness ability increasing to 40 points, no Cathayan Longswords, etc. will make the character-driven deathstars a little bit easier to kill- I've lost count of the number of times I've played vs Ogres this edition, and sacrificed a good deal of my army and left the enemy deathstar with a Tyrant on 1 wound, a BSB on 1 wound, and the rest of the unit down to 1 model (Sometimes on 2 or even 3 wounds!). Runemaw changes a lot as well, as it needs to go on the BSB, who then will not have a ward save, and the banner is slightly worse now (plus very expensive).

Hoepfully this will make Ogres more fun to play against now, even with their creature that makes us ASL (Strike in initiative order... yes, that is how it works!).


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