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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:01 pm 
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what's the best way to smash ogres in a 1500 - 2000 point battle?
I was thinking of 2 Eagle-claws, an Archmage, Archers, Seaguards, swordmasters, Ellyrian Reavers and Dragon-princes... but could anyone please help with the more detailed aspect?

so far this guy as been beating me every single time I put up my high elves, because like true elves, I tend to be noble, and not exploit someones weakness, but at this moment I've had enough of that goody-twoshoes ideology and I just want to feel a hint of what I have felt all this time...

many thanks beforehand.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:38 pm 
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What does he like to take?

What tactics does he use?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:23 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
What does he like to take?

What tactics does he use?


These are important points.

The most common Ogre builds these days makes hefty use of the deathstar approach, otherwise known as cramming a big Ogre unit full of tough-to-kill characters and daring all opponents to try and defeat it.

A bit more information will be useful in helping us craft our replies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:30 pm 
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I see... the mists are clearing now... I see... Purple Sun in your future...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:47 pm 
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he primairily runs on the batallion (bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers) A tyrant, a Butcher and a scraplauncher....
and he runs at me and hits me in the face T^T... Bullcharges and impact hits really damage my elfs before they can deliver a blow... also does that against my Lizardmen, seen no variation in tactics so far, aside from not using a Slave-giant.
seriously, he charges every opportunity he gets, so I was thinking of using an archmage... and some charge-blockers... or Ellyrian reavers to call out a charge, pull his units out of order, and then charge him in his flank with Dragonprinces o.o... ( xD I can't believe I came up with that on my own)
But I'll need more than just 1 trick to win that battle...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:18 am 
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I have never played Ogres but I would think that you could feed it two eagles over the course of two turns. While he is doing nothing but standing there and killing your eagles you kill everything else on the board and position yourself to get some nice rear or flank charges in.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:55 am 
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Raithial wrote:
he runs at me and hits me in the face T^T... Bullcharges and impact hits really damage my elfs before they can deliver a blow...

Impact hits is only a few wounds a round. That should not hurt much if your units are big enough. Unless he has more characters than you mention, your elite infantry should tear up his ogres. That and your magic should give you a major advantage.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:53 am 
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Raithial wrote:
he runs at me and hits me in the face T^T... Bullcharges and impact hits really damage my elfs before they can deliver a blow...

For bullcharge don't they have to go over a certain number of inches for impact hits to work? 6 I think. In which case, just move inside that 6 inches when they get close to charging, and they won't get impact hits.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:59 am 
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spearmen with okkam's mindrazor can wipe the floor with anything he can throw at you.
pit of shades and penumbral pendulum can also make short work of ogres.
PG w/razor standard and both SM and WL can deal a lot of unsaveable wounds on ogres.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:35 am 
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Use eagles to re-direct his major deathstar out of line or slow them to a crawl. Here are some pictures. Briefly, this works like this:

Image

Place your eagle 1" away from his deathstar and angle him horizontally. Be sure that your eagle's frontal arc covers more than 50% of his front rank, that way, if his ogres charge, it is a frontal charge (since side that you charge is based upon the reference frame of the chargee, not the charger, so as long as your eagle sees 50% of his front rank in his frontal zone, his ogres must charge the front). Good placement leads to a formation like this:

Image

Now, when he kills the eagle, he either runs horizontally across the board, OR he can reform, in which case he has moved exactly 1" forward. The rest of his line is forced to either slow and wait, as you pummel him with arrows, or advance without them, in which case his remaining units become easy to overcome. Be sure you do this on his more dangerous deathstar (the one that has his tyrant, and his BSB if one like that exists), rather than trying to hold up both. Basically, the point of this is to force him to send his forces towards you one unit at a time, in which case you can easily destroy one. This only works, of course, if you actually kill the unit that hits your lines first quickly, so make sure you only do this with one of his deathstars. 2 eagles should do the trick, and should have his deathstar crawling across the board for 2 turns (and it usually takes 2 turns for an ogre army to reach your lines, so you would have 4 full combat phases to deal with his un-slowed ogre blocks before his most dangerous unit hits your infantry).

I would also take archers and maybe an RBT or 2 to eliminate his skirmishers/scraplaunchers and after target his bulls. Bulls are only T4 with no armor, so withering on them makes your archers deadly. Definitely take a LV 4 archmage with silver wand and take shadow. Pit is deadly on his ogres that have very low I, and his bulls are sitting ducks if you wither them (making them T3 or below, or in other words, you wound then on 4s, 3s, or 2s, with your spears or archers depending on how well you roll for withering, rather than the usual 5s).

And people have mentioned, ogres don't get impacts if they charge less than 6", so after his first turn of advancing with his main lines, move up 7 or more inches, as that would put you under 6" for his charge, so he gets no impacts.

Also take at least one unit of 30 spears to be steadfast, and either swordsmasters or WLs to chop up his blocks. DPs as a flanking force also work well. Basically, have his weaker units charge your spears or elite infantry (preferably lions for your elite infantry, so they are stubborn in case he rolls well), you stand (after killing quite a few), then you charge their flank with DPs, and either wither them or cast Okkams on your spears (try Okkams first, and if he uses all his dice towards dispelling it, you have a few dice left to try withering). If you do that, you would have 10+ WS 5 S5 attacks from your DPs, and 20 S8 attacks with your spears. All of your attacks re-roll failed rolls to hit (meaning, if you don't wither them but get off Okkams, you are wounding on 3s with your DPs, and 2s with your spears).

Those are some basic tactics anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:48 am 
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Great tips for new players jwg20!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:16 am 
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Raithial wrote:
what's the best way to smash ogres in a 1500 - 2000 point battle?

Best way by far is a lvl4 Book of Hoeth archmage picking either death (for purple sun) or shadow (for pendulum, pit of shades and mindrazor). Back him up by a lvl 2 to make sure he gets the spells he needs and you've basically won the game right there. (Teclis would work even better of course, but he doesn't fit in 2000pts)

Average initiative in an Ogre army is 3. Common ogres have 2 and a Tyrant only has 4. So all I test you force on him will loose him between half and 2/3 of his unit or army (in the case of purple sun). Back up by a big unit of spearmen or phoenix guard to keep the mage alive and possibly mindrazor (if you like shadow), a couple of eagles to keep him busy and you have all the army you need.

This is by far the best way elves have of killing ogres. It might not let you keep your friends but it's effective. (on the other hand if he is useing rock hard deathstar lists, why shouldn't you do the same)

Other things to keep in mind are that like other people have mentioned ogres only get impact hits when further than 6'' away. Also remember that you don't have to take the charge. You can flee and leave him stranded for a counter charge.

Don't fight one of his units with only one of yours. A combo charge with 2 units is minimum. This lets you target the relatively weak normal orgres that are protected by the characters.

Kill his support units (if he brings any) first. This lets you dominate movement and if you keep his deathstar busy with eagles all game, you don't even have to kill it to get a victory if you kill all his support.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:01 am 
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so, basically the idea is blow shit up with magic, preferably Lore of Death/shadow, hit it with arrows and pull his units out of place by tempting to charge with Ellyrian Reavers(since I don't have eagles), and then hit his flank with dragon-princes/swordmasters?
Does that sound like a proper strategy to defeat ogres? ...

I'm a little unsure of my abilities with my Elves, since I untill a while ago was playing Lizardmen primairily, and there the tactics with very sturdy Saurus tended to result in this sort of hold-out match, where I'd build a fortress and use Skinks to relay magic Missiles and win that way. Using Lore of Life I could basically make S4 T8 Core troops.

I tend to get a bit intimidated by the Frailty of the Elves, but I also like them because of that.

But that strategy, does that sound like a way to defeat ogres?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Most magic won't accomplish much at all on ogre deathstar units since the big block will certainly have the Rune Maw banner. Purple Sun is the only spell in the BRB that can ignore it other than a lucky scatter from Pit.

I just played an army like this yesterday. In short, I used 2 eagles and a unit of 5 naked dragon princes to redirect it while my other units smashed apart his gnoblars and leadbelchers. In the end, I simply refused to offer battle to the deathstar. Its stupid to do so. I ended up losing only the 250 pts I sacrificed as redirectors and I gobbled up four gnoblar units, 2 leadbelcher units and 2 gorgers.

You are never going to crush an army like this. Its like the WoC Chosen list. You simply can't get points out of the big unit so you have to pick off the smaller ones and play for a slight victory

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Pretty much!

Your lack of Eagles handicaps you. But you can have a go with Reavers and possibly Shadow Warriors too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
Most magic won't accomplish much at all on ogre deathstar units since the big block will certainly have the Rune Maw banner. Purple Sun is the only spell in the BRB that can ignore it other than a lucky scatter from Pit.

There of course needs to be a friendly unit within 6'' to redirect to. Otherwise it has no effect. So if you can draw it out of position and eliminate the support, then you're free to go.

And of course, IF purple sun = win against ogres

Rod

Edit: just noticed this:
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Bullcharges and impact hits really damage my elfs before they can deliver a blow

Bullcharges = impact hits. (or to be more precise they're special impact hits). He doens't get both. And the Bull charge is only 1 hit per ogre in BTB contact, so it is at most 6 hits if you both are in horde. 3 is more likely. It's not that damaging.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I don't have that many troops yet T^T but my army is so quickly expanding I don't even have time to finish some of the units before moving on to my new expansion. A few weeks ago I only had a standard Batallion, the Island Of Blood Elves, and 1 extra balista. Since then I've added on 5 dragon-princes, a lord on dragon(magnetised, so I can more easily switch between mage/prince on dragon) I have a lord on foot, a lord on horse, I have Alith Anar and the metal Prince Althran model because it looked awesome. I am now also saving up for Eagles and for some shadow-warriors. I'm thinking 3 to 5 eagles total, and about 20 to 25 shadow-warriors in total. (not all deployed at once)

but yeah, I'll look to it that I defeat those ogres this evening, and I will report back my success/failure, I'll link it to the full report in the Battle Report section.

But thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to keep it in mind when I am in the heat of battle. Wish me luck, and when I need help again I'll be sure to come here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:05 pm 
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With the Reavers I would try leaving them a few inches in front of his best unit to restrict it's marching. If he charges he's unlikely to catch you and you've restricted his move again. Feigned Flight should let you do this more than once.

Of course if you're running an 85pt unit you could sacrifice it if you have to like jwg20 described with the eagle but obviously eagles (or even Shadow Warriors) are better for this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Raithial wrote:

I'm a little unsure of my abilities with my Elves, since I untill a while ago was playing Lizardmen primairily, and there the tactics with very sturdy Saurus tended to result in this sort of hold-out match, where I'd build a fortress and use Skinks to relay magic Missiles and win that way. Using Lore of Life I could basically make S4 T8 Core troops.

I tend to get a bit intimidated by the Frailty of the Elves, but I also like them because of that.

But that strategy, does that sound like a way to defeat ogres?


Welcome to the Elven playstyle. When it works, your opponent will cry tears of blood and complain that we're the most overpowered force in creation. When it fails, you'll watch your expensive and fragile troops fold in an instant and wonder why on earth you pay so many points for T3, 5+ armor save models.

That being said, playing Elves is very much about seizing the initiative, and I'm not talking about the Initiative value on the a stat line either :wink: . Even with our magic prowess, High Elves are very much a combat army; Speed of Asuryan makes us one of those fearsome and thoroughly reliable combat presences to be had anywhere. Combat is ultimately the Core of most High Elf lists, with the other faces supporting our combat units and allowing them to function at their best. We rely heavily on the natural synergy of movement, magic, shooting and combat to win, since (unlike many other armies) we tend to rely on all four to serve an important role in most games we play and make the other three phases more successful.

As an Elven player, you always want to stack the deck in your favor, and you always want to bring overwhelming odds to bear in your important combats while sacrificing less important units to buy yourself time. Remember, taking casualties isn't a bad thing as long as your opponent suffers more, and units like Eagles and Reavers are very important in giving your elite units the breathing room they need to operate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:07 pm 
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Speaking in favor of Ogre players, as much as everybody hates Deathstar lists. For Ogres at this point it is pretty much the only effective build they can muster. Is it Boring? Yes it is, but thats just how it is at this point. Those Ogre players are desperately waiting for their new book to give them more playing options.

That said, even with their Deathstars they have pretty much weaknesses which can be exploited. Here is the mainstream:

Low to no armor (most troops are only T4 and have terrible armor. Even archers can score many wounds on them)

Low LD (anything has to stay in within LD bubble of general)

They rely very heavily on their magic to buff their units (stacking buffs on units)(Increasind casting cost with High Lore will ruin their day)(Also, the magic ending crystal will also dispel all remains in play spells and their spells count as rip for the purpose of dispelling)

Low initiative

Low Weapon skill

The list goes on and on. High Elves have many ways to deal with Ogres. All our elite infantry will slay them by the scores, just keep him from stacking too many T increasing spells on his units and you should be fine!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:08 pm 
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The deathstar characters tend not to like being debuffed.

Of course as has been stated mindrazor will destroy them. flaming sword is worth something apart from any carrying flaming wards (not sure how common that is) the +1 to wound takes a lot out of their high T based def.


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