Lore of High Magic

[Enginseer]

Quick question. Does everyone generally agree that the lore of high magic is not worth taking because of the new nastier miscast table?

[Mentheus of Caledor]

No?
Sure the spells arent as good, but they are all MUCH easier to cast. By a lot. Flames can often be as good as dwellers, considering its lower casting value. Plus its RiP, which means if its not dispelled when you cast it, the opponent will need to waste PD to dispel it or get toasted again. Plus you get drain magic. which is always good. But on a level 4, you could easily cast all the spells in high magic on less than three dice. In the average magic phase you can cast between 2 and 4 relatively good spells. Vaul's can prove to be a game winner - unkillable dreadlord? Not anymore =)

So no, I disagree. Sure, if you happen to miscast, the spell you were trying to cast probably wasn't worth it, but by all rights you'll be using less dice to cast each spell, which means you'll have less chance of miscasting overall.

High magic isn't a game winner - like life or shadow can be, but i find it forces a player to rely less on that one powerful spell, and forces the player to have less reliance on magic. Which is always a good thing =)

[Bolt Thrower]

In another thread today I was reading about some good synergies that High Magic was having with other lores such as Shadow. I think that High is definitely an excellent supporting lore for a level two on the table. I find that Shield is almost guaranteed to be let through and though Drain is not as potent as it once was, it is still not liked by magic heavier armies.

[Jaith]

I think the glamour of the new lores from the 8th BRB has made us forget how spoiled we are to have the Lore of High Magic. Try it in a few games, it has a lot to offer.

[Mentheus of Caledor]

I think the glamour of the new lores from the 8th BRB has made us forget how spoiled we are to have the Lore of High Magic. Try it in a few games, it has a lot to offer.

+1 for this.
This is so true. Lately I've even been considering running high on my AM, just to see how we go...

[tethlis the slayer]

All lores suffer from the miscast table, not just High Magic! So it makes no more difference to High Magic than it does to other lores. In fact, High Magic has less problems with miscasts than the rulebook lores, as most of the spells are very easy to cast - and the less dice you throw at a spell, the less risk of a miscast.

High is a great lore in many ways - cheap and useful spells, a 'free' spell in Drain Magic, and two very good higher end spells (Flames of the Phoenix and Vaul's Unmaking). Its a bit of a 'jack of all trades' lore, so doesn't appeal to some people as much as the Rulebook lores, particularly seeing as it doesn't have a 'Nuke' spell like Dwellers, Pit or Purple Sun. In addition, it doesn't have the sort of highly effective buffs/hexes that synergise so well with our infantry (+T from life, -T/-S and Occams from Shadow etc). It works great on a supporting caster though, particularly considering a Lvl 2 gets three spells (four with the silver wand) meaning even during max rolls for the Winds of Magic you'll have plenty of useful spells to cast.

[SpellArcher]

I run High Magic on a level 3 and find it good.

He isn't that expensive, covers defence OK and casts plenty of helpful spells.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

A level 2 is best suited, especially with Silver Wand and maybe ring of fury.

[SpellArcher]

Most people seem to rate High Magic on a Mage and I can see this in support of a more offensive Lvl4.

I think it comes down to what you're looking to achieve with the magic phase. If you see it as a primary weapon and are willing to invest points, High is controversial for your AM. On the other hand, if it is just one of several tools that your army has, I think High is a good choice for him.

[AiEthimar]

I read that same thread that Bolt Thrower is talking about. The possiblities can get scary combining Shadow and High Magic. I currently run a Lvl 4 with the Silver Wand and Shadow and a Lvl 2 with the Seerstaff and High. Lowering an opponents toughness, casting Shield on my SMs, and finally casting Flames of the Phoenix on the lowered toughness unit, and they now have two remains in play spells to worry about, with one becoming more deadly as it goes on. This can go on for a turn or two, then when my spears or PGs get into combat, the pit and okkam's comes out. The opponent doesn't know what to save dice for, the Enfeebling (I think)+ Flames combo or pit and okkam's. Also, drain is helpful when facing lizardmen, Empire with a War Altar, and Chaos. I think High magic is awesome.

AE

[jwg20]

Against weaker armor save opponents, I'd actually argue that flames is better than dwellers. Lets say there is a unit of 50 Clanrats with spears and shields 24" away from your mage.

Dwellers casts on a 21+, and will kill 25 on average.

Flames casts on an 11+, and will kill 16.66 on average

BUT then flames remains in play, so if he/she doesn't dispel in their magic phase, (which they will need to blow 2 dice at least in order to dispel), then, flames deals an additional 18.5 at the start of your next magic phase.

So flames doesn't have the same bonus against characters in units or war machines, BUT it kills more lightly armored infantry in general unless your opponent wastes dice to dispel it in his phase, AND is significantly easier to cast.

That and shield can be cast with a LV 2 mage with one die pretty easily (same probability as casting it with an AM with one die, as a 1 or 2 auto fails the casting attempt anyway).

So nope. Not useless.

[Tethlis]

I really like Shield of Saphery, and use it regularly on my Level 1 support mage who carries the Sigil of Asuryan. It's a bit of extra protection that's very easy to cast, even for a Level 1, and stacks well with other forms of survivability from Lore of Life or augments/hexes from Lore of Shadow. Having Drain Magic isn't bad either, as others have mentioned.

My only hesitation for using High Magic on an Archmage is that Stubborn, re-rolling missile fire and 2D6 S4 hits generally aren't as effective as I would like. Granted, a 5+ Ward, Flames and Vaul's Unmaking are so useful that I'm still very tempted. Vaul's Unmaking is a spell that can turn entire games around... Shutting down Sacrificial Dagger on a Supreme Sorceress, Favor of the Gods on a Chosen unit, Drakenhoff Banner/Helm of Commandment against Vamp Counts, Cupped Hands on Lizardmen, lots of great possibilities.

[SpellArcher]

Stubborn, re-rolling missile fire and 2D6 S4 hits generally aren't as effective as I would like.

Curse gets better the more shooting you take I think. I've had games where I've not missed Fury but in some it's golden. Again, if you're likely to be Steadfast or not to lose combat then Courage is dubious but it can be good sometimes.

It's largely about the list I guess.

[Eirik]

At 2500 I run
Lvl 4 life with silver wand
Lvl 2 metal with sigil of asuryan
Lvl 2 high with annulian crystal

Admitidely I fielded the high mage because I like the flavor. The annulian goes on the high mage because of the high mage's very low miscast chance, since I want to keep the annulian crystal around all game. I love that I can toss 1 die into him at the end of the magic phase for a 2/3 chance of getting of shield (which I always take). Having flames, vauls or curse can be useful too. The great thing about flames is that your enemy wizard pretty much has to throw 3 dice at it. If they only use 2 they run a large risk (42%) of failing to dispel, thus losing their level 4 wizard's concentration. Combined with arcane banner and the annulian crystal, this puts an even steeper limit on your opponent's magic dice, which are at a premium relative to yours.

Since the metal mage's job is to IF a maxed searing doom on priority targets, he gets to carry the 1 use only item. I'm just mentioning this to push the idea that you should be placing more important magic items like annulian on your high mage, as his expected lifespan is longer.

[Question]

From a new player's perspective, i suspect high magic doesn't look that attractive due to what some of the spells do.

-Drain magic seems designed to be the last finisher spell a mage casts, to hinder the enemy magic in his turn. Of course that assumes your mage gets off all his spells without failing, i dont know how hard this is to do.

-Shield of saphery : It's only a 5+ ward, and only for one unit as it has to be recasted. If it was remains in play, this would be really popular, but if people want survivability, lore of life seems a better choice.

-Curse of arrow attraction : Buffing the (ironically) weak shooting of high elves isn't really useful. Even empire crossbowmen are better archers than high elf archers. I honestly dont know why longbows are s3 volley when the rules actively discourage shooting units larger than 2x10.

-Courage of aenarion : Theres the problem of it being 12 inches, white lions are already stubborn and ranks make stubborn quite easy to obtain, so this really doesnt come into play much.

-Fury of Khaine : Pretty much like all other magic missles

Flames and vauls are really good but that's pretty much it. Seems best on a level 2 mage with the seer staff(allowing him to pick and choose flames + vauls), with a level 4 and silver wand you end up with some spells that you probably wont spend power dice on.

[KJSparkz]

I would have to disagree about Courage of Aenarion, if used correctly it can be very beneficial.If you have small units of archers attacked by flyers or you want your spears to hold the line to allow flank charges against Hordes where you just wont gain steadfast its a great way to give the rest of your army time to get into position to help you out or to deal with bigger threats.
Also with clever positioning of the caster he can easily give the stubborn to 4 or 5 units at a time. Stubborn PG and SMs can really make an opponent worry.

[AiEthimar]

-Drain magic seems designed to be the last finisher spell a mage casts, to hinder the enemy magic in his turn. Of course that assumes your mage gets off all his spells without failing, i dont know how hard this is to do.

-Shield of saphery : It's only a 5+ ward, and only for one unit as it has to be recasted. If it was remains in play, this would be really popular, but if people want survivability, lore of life seems a better choice.

Drain magic is precisely that type of spell that you cast last IMO. After all, you don't want to raise all of your own casting values by 3; except in some very odd circumstance. And seeing as how most High Magic spells are some of the easiest to get off in the game, odds are with 3 dice you can get off all of them (Vaul's is only 12 to cast).

Shield, while being "only a 5+ ward" can be extremely useful, when used in certain situations. Sure you have to recast it, but except for Throne of Vines, all other Life spells have to be recast... kind of voiding that concern when coupled with the fact that 6's auto wound no matter what. Besides with only HA in CC most of the "scaries" that we put our WLs or SMs against have a high enough strength to negate that armor, thus the 5+ ward becomes a lifesaver! I have saved many a wound from 18 treekin attacks against my SMs with this spell. Shield also has the benefit that if cast first, most opponents let it go, because it's not worth the dispel dice when there is another lore to worry about.

And as for Curse, granted it takes some good casting, but when you combine it with Shadow's Toughness hex, it can really even the playing field, especially when you throw the RBT shots into the equation. Sure it probably won't be hugely beneficial against Chaos Knights, but against horde units like slaves, goblins, marauders, Beastman Bestigors even become easy pickings with these two spells. And for me, at 2500, I have 22 archers and two RBTs= 34 fairly accurate shots, made more so rerolling misses, that will probably wound on 2's depending on how high you roll for the Toughness hex.

Now, granted this is all fairly situational, but overall I think most people would argue that High Magic has a great utility as a support lore, which is basically what the OP was asking anyway. You are correct that it's not as potent as the BRB lores, but it must be remembered that High Magic came out with 6th and 7th edition in mind- magic was harder to cast with fewer dice potentially available. Forgive my rambling, but I would say that most people enjoy the "Swiss Army Knife" approach of High Magic. That is all.

AE

[Bolt Thrower]

I also like Curse casting it on war machines. Sometimes getting that extra hit or two can result in the needed 6 to wound or even an extra one. I've successfully taken out a Skaven Warp Lightning Cannon in two turns with 10 archers this way. I imagine vs Empire cannons or O&G rock throwers it would also work well. Dwarves are a different story as they tote slightly better armour on their crews.

Courage is also better than given credit for as elves are excellent in MSU style and so steadfast can be actually more difficult to come by.

[John Rainbow]

From a new player's perspective, i suspect high magic doesn't look that attractive due to what some of the spells do.

I have to disagree. High Magic is a great lore. It is a jack of all trades lore, you get something for everything but no 'big'' spell.

Shield is an awesome spell. Unlike Regen from LoL, the ward can go on anyone (not just the casters unit) and isn't negated by fire. It is a great spell to ensure a few more of your SMs survive or to try and beef up an eagle or similar without a usual save. The bonus of not having your mage in the targeted unit is great.

I also think that the more you play, the more you will value an ability like stubborn. Again, another great spell. Have a unit of archers hold against WoC or something? Yes please.

Vauls unmaking = game changer.

Drain magic = free spell. Great news.

And the other spells, we all know about/everyone has already covered.

[Dj Noise]

I have used High Magic a few times in 8th ed and i do enjoy Flames of the Phoenix far more then most instant death spells, its lower casting value, remains in play, and its just a cool visual to picture.

Vauls has saved me a game before by accepting a duel with my Fori Robe mage and then blowing up his Giant Blade preventing a Ogre Tyrants 5 - 6 points of combet res.

Shield and Courage are also very helpful in almost every situation.

i have not made much use of Curse or Fury though, i tend to shy away from shooting and magic Missiles with the almost certain turn 2 charge now, but thats just me, i know they have there uses in the right lists.

[Ptolemy]

I like High Magic these days on my RGoH Prince combo'd with a shadow Archmage.

As others have pointed out, Shield of Saphery is almost always let through. It gives us a whole layer of protection against some of the nastier warmachines out there and can really make the difference for spearmen units in close combat.

I have to disagree with some people about Drain Magic being a spell to cast last.

Frankly, I will often cast it FIRST, particularly if I know I'm going for a spell that I will be throwing six dice at. For example, if I know my magic phase will be all about tossing 6 dice at Mindrazor, I don't hesitate to throw Drain magic on 2 dice with my Prince to start the phase.

The enemy is in a bit of a pickle there. They are awfully tempted to let it go, especially since they don't (absolutely) know what you are going to cast next. However, doing so means they eat the penalty for the entirety of their phase. Many enemies will dispel it, knowing that they would rather not miss a critical roll by a few measly points when their magic phase comes around. With those dispel dice gone, you might find yourself with a good deal of flexibility in casting.

As for Vauls...I think you are better off grabbing a secondary mage and giving him the Ring of Corin. Aside from a very small selection of items, there aren't that many that I think are critical enough to warrant passing on some of the game changing spells offered by the BRB lores.

[SpellArcher]

...I think you are better off grabbing a secondary mage and giving him the Ring of Corin.

This is certainly worth a try (and great for six-dicing) but those Arcane slots are precious. But this and Vaul's give us a genuinely game-changing ability. This isn't our top spell for nothing.

Drain is exactly what you want when the enemy's top spell is a 25+.

Flesh to Stone is a great spell but while the RIP has advantages, compare Shield which you know is staying up for your opponent's combat phase too.

Running an army with 50 shots in it, Curse is just very handy. I shudder to think what could be done combined with Withering as suggested, the two best shooting buffs in the game together!

Flames does of course give us a vital tool against really big units, as mentioned. Also, I've noticed that people are very keen to dispel it in their turn, so the defensive aspect is pretty concrete.

[Chracian]

I've noticed that my opponents don't dispel high magic spells; they tend to think along the lines of 'well, even if you hit more, you've only got S3 shooting', 'I'll be throwing 6 dice at my spells so +3 to cast doesn't matter', or '5+ ward? pah!' when in fact these are very handy with BS4 shooting, or squishy swordmasters and so on. Archers can kill war machines, but they do it quicker with curse.