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 Post subject: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:53 pm 
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when browsing the tactics, army list and even painting forum i have hardly come across anybody using reavers.

with bow and spear they are hardly cheaper then a silver helm.
the range of archers is big enough to eliminate the dire need for a mobile shooting platform.
they are not really hitty in cc even with spear, asf and rerolls.
redirecting is much more difficult in 8th. and eagles are much cheaper for that.
shadow warriors get behind lines even faster.

so? are they really rubish? or am i missing something.

I got the IOB seti and it just feels like a waste not to use those excellent models in an army.

thx.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:59 pm 
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Hi BorkBork,

I think you may find this topic interesting: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=34877

I intend to use Ellyrian Reavers myself but had no opportunity so far hence I can only try to theoryhammer about them. I do hope, however, they can be used efficiently although it might be difficult. :)

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:44 am 
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I have used them, Vanguard and Feigned Flight were suprisingly useful.

Reavers can fight better than Shadow Warriors and Eagles and are faster and more maneouverable than Helms. All these troops have their place of course but in the right list Reavers can be good.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:19 am 
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thx for the link and answers.

am also strugling to make my wolf and spider riders work. But they are cheap enough to use as throw away units, speedbumps (park them at an angle 1 inch away in front of nasty enemy unit so he is forced to charge and hold, you die but he will have moved only one inch or would overrun in the wrong direction).
Especially wolf riders now make decent missile screens for savage boar boyz due to their 4+ save, which also makes sure they survive against most warmachine crews and flank of not too funky units.

anyway enough food for thought. :)

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:39 am 
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I don't like sacrificing troops in general. My friends used to joke it is ironic that an ancient and highly intelligent creature as Great Eagle is always sent to die for HE.

With ER, however, I hope to use that Fast Cavalry rule to draw some charges, flee, re-group and join action quickly again. With new rules for re-directing your charge it is more difficult to accomplish but I think there is a way to use it properly. The fact that frenzy troops can be more controlled does not mean they will behave properly always. There is no harm in presenting them with an opportunity to break the ranks then :)

I also intend on using my 5-6 ER in two ranks. Thanks to that I can focus 5-6 S4 attacks of the riders on a smaller frontage. It should count for something while attacking from the flank, or if you want to hunt that wizard hiding in a unit. I also wonder if in order to make them more efficient a second unit should not be added to the army list.

What is your army list (in general, no need for details about magic items)? I think every unit should be evaluated in the context of the army list. Then you can assign a proper role for them to play.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:32 am 
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I've seen one use of fast cavalry that should probably be mentioned: vanguard is really good for keeping your opponent's scouts away(though i prefer using my own scouts for this).

For example your opponent has a unit of gutter urnners with poisoned slings. You are worried about what these will do in turn one to your bolt throwers: you place your two bolt throwers close to each other with a unit of reavers between them. When your opponent deploys his gutter runners you respond, moving your ravers between the runners and the closest bolt thrower. the -2 to hit this gives means your opponent can no longer poison the warmachine.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:57 am 
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i dont have a high elf list yet.
Got the iob a while back and got a battalion box (with rbt & helms) very cheapo on marktplaats (dutch ebay).
(And i kit bashed a chariot, although i may need the steeds for their original S-helm riders.)

and am now just trying to make up my mind about where to go from there.
I do like the cavalry list, as the O&G give me enough infantry fun allready. Love to play with heavy cav for a while.
So i do intend to buy an eagle or two, dragon prices (5?), expand the swordmasters and probably get some w lions.

think i will include the lsg models from iob in the spearmen unit which means i have a 30 ish strong unit which can be filled out further to 35.

oh and sacrifising troops is just part of the orcy ways :lol:
Playing expensive troops like helves will be a challenge.

@geo. interesting tactic, but wont they just shoot up the reavers instead?

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:33 pm 
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They aren't likely to do 5 wounds though, mening you lose 0vps (and if they leave even a single reaver alive it can hide somewhere) if they leave 2 or three you can charge them as with the rerolls and horses you have ok odds (though i wouldn't bother).
Also, reavers can carry banners and thus give you some hard to get banners in blood and glory.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:13 am 
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Wolf Riders are great value but aren't as flexible as Eagles or as reliable as Reavers. With Reavers you'll probably pass a panic or rally test, so they can use Feigned Flight better.

That said, I charged a unit of Gutter Runners thinking it couldn't shoot and he switched to throwing stars, shot two figures off and panicked the unit off the field! Slightly bad luck I guess...

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:57 am 
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Dark Riders are equally priced, way better and core. I would easily swap a unit of Archers for Reavers still, however being special and rather expensive, I can't justify their cost. I have yet to see them fielded in a successful competitive list.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:03 am 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
way better

How so?

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:13 am 
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Greetings!

I was just wondering if anyone has some nice examples of a good use of their ER. I tried them at the very beginning of 8th edition in games of 3k. I had two units of 5 ER, one with musician one with standard. I played against Dwarves, Empire, WoC and VC then. In these four battles I had following experience and observations:

1. Gyrocopters are their bane. Steam cannon can easily cover all 5 ER and flying machine can always find a way to land on their flank. ER, despite their speed had trouble to get to warmachines as dwarven castle formation does not leave enough room for light cavalry to sneak behind their lines.

2. Drawing charges is nice but then it is a pity when fast cavalry fails to rally. I guess that musician is mendatory to increase the chances, especially when ER operate outside the 12" radius of the BSB.

3. ER speed is their asset but I have found out that they too have problems with redeployment. If you place them on one flank and then want to move them to another might not always be a good idea. What is more, the enemy does not react to their deployment in the same way as to 5 strong unit of DP. It seems they are not considered such a threat. In my opinion, in order to use their speed to maximum, they should be deplyed later on, so you can spot the best route for them to go behind enemy lines.

4. ER are obviously very fragile and I have quickly found it out against Empire. I had 2 ER units and 2 eagles and all these units failed to reach warmachines as they were all shot down. I think that in order for target saturation to work you should still approach from the flank so that any shooters/warmachines deployed at the centre of castle formation at least have to shift their position to be able to shoot at our light troops.

5. A rear charge, especially with a standard, can switch combat to your favour as I learned by charging wounded black coach, which already was engaged from the front by small unit of Swordmasters. As the coach could not do a lot of damage it crumbled (ER added +4 to combat resolution) despite the fact it was already ethereal.

6. ER are probably too weak to charge Hellcannons or Warshrines but simply by staying close to the enemy they can be very annoying and can force that failed LD test to be able to march-move. And 1-2 dead marauders per turn due to bow fire makes them even more annoying.

Apart from examples you might have I am interested in the following:

1. Do you try to support ER with magic and if yes with what lore? I think that Light magic can make them quite dangerous (more attacks or super-speed).

2. How exactly do you use Vanguard and Fast Cavalry rules to benefit from them in the battle? Do you always use vanguard? How do you force your enemy to declare charges on ER? They probably are well aware of their abilities and then it is easy to spot that there are same units behinf ER which are ready to declare their charges as soon as your enemy enters their charge zone.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:15 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
way better

How so?

I think it is due to Repeater Crossbows. They are very dangerous with this weapon, which is far superiour to bows. More shots and armour piercing is dangerous even to heavy cavalry.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:24 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I guess that musician is mendatory to increase the chances, especially when ER operate outside the 12" radius of the BSB.

I'd say so.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
In my opinion, in order to use their speed to maximum, they should be deplyed later on,

In my second game at the SCGT I did this and overlapped the Khemrian line, then Vanguarded and outflanked his bowline with them.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I think it is due to Repeater Crossbows. They are very dangerous with this weapon, which is far superiour to bows. More shots and armour piercing is dangerous even to heavy cavalry.

The impression I get from DE players is that most do not rate RXB fire from these that highly. Being Fast Cav they need to keep moving so are hitting on 5's at best and there are not many of them. Contrast with a unit of 10 BS5 Shades which can sit in a wood and cause absolute carnage.

If you sit a unit of Reavers (or Dark Riders) about 6" in front of an infantry block, he has to charge it or be limited to moving 5" that turn. You may also get lucky and march-block.

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Last edited by SpellArcher on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 am 
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[Edited for moment of retardation ^_^']

Deployment is important for almost every unit, especially for something like Reavers.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:08 am 
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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Curu Olannon wrote:
way better

How so?

I think it is due to Repeater Crossbows. They are very dangerous with this weapon, which is far superiour to bows. More shots and armour piercing is dangerous even to heavy cavalry.


Swordmaster is spot on. Regardless of their intended role, having RXBs compared to bows is just plain better. ASF hardly matters on these units. Even hitting on 5's you'll do a lot of damage with RXBs compared to bows.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:56 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The impression I get from DE players is that most do not rate RXB fire from these that highly. Being Fast Cav they need to keep moving so are hitting on 5's at best and there are not many of them. Contrast with a unit of 10 BS5 Shades which can sit in a wood and cause absolute carnage.

Shades are definitely better at being dangerous in a shooting phase. Better BS and more models for the same cost. DR seem to be more versatile but I found out that units with shooting and combat abilities are not that popular anyway. Hard to use them efficiently as one thing prevents the other. If you have an army that has expensive troops in general, then you simply have to take what is good all the time. So DE are better at taking Shades and Harpies for example. However, I still think DR can be very dangerous regardless.

SpellArcher wrote:
If you sit a unit of Reavers (or Dark Riders) about 6" in front of an infantry block, he has to charge it or be limited to moving 5" that turn. You may also get lucky and march-block.

But how to make the enemy charge you? They know you are going to flee so it is safer for them to deal with that unit at range. I guess ER has to be positioned in a way that they can charge something fragilie next turn so they cannot be simply ignored. That is also the reason I think DR are better with crossbows. They can sit in front of the enemy and inflict enough damage to get attention.

Tiralya wrote:
[Edited for moment of retardation ^_^']

Deployment is important for almost every unit, especially for something like Reavers.

:) The order of deployment is important too and that determines if particular unit is going to be used properly or not :)

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Swordmaster: the method spellarcher is alluding to is a trick commonly seen in wood elf gunline style armies.

the enemy infantry line is moving towards your shooters, you place a unit of ellyrian reavers in a conga line infront of an enemy unit, this unit can't continue to move towards your lines, so has to charge your reavers or waste a turn. The reavers, being more than 5 away need to roll 1 inch less than the charging unit to get away, so will most likely do so (especially with swiftstride in their favour). The reavers then do the same next turn. This way you slow the enemy from engaging your line until you've had as long as possible to shoot them.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Swordmaster is spot on. Regardless of their intended role, having RXBs compared to bows is just plain better. ASF hardly matters on these units. Even hitting on 5's you'll do a lot of damage with RXBs compared to bows.

The way I see it, we strike first almost always, Dark Riders usually strike first. They re-roll but usually, so do we.

RXB are better than bows but the question is whether missile weapons are a good idea at all, or whether if taken they have as much impact on the game as the other things Fast Cavalry can do.

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
But how to make the enemy charge you? They know you are going to flee so it is safer for them to deal with that unit at range. I guess ER has to be positioned in a way that they can charge something fragilie next turn so they cannot be simply ignored. That is also the reason I think DR are better with crossbows. They can sit in front of the enemy and inflict enough damage to get attention.

Geo put it well and it works for us too. If your opponent has an expensive infantry block, he will not want that block ambling along at 5" per turn while your cavalry take the flank of his army off.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Holding up an enemy unit for no loss is always a good thing. I'm toying with a shooty, woodelf style high elf list (i think it'll work reasonably in this edition) and since reading this thread i'm trying to fit a couple of units of reavers in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Delay tactics is something ER should excel at and I think it will be useful for any army, not only the one which focuses on shooting. If you can slow down any horde formation and prevent it from joining the battle in time then it is great indeed! It should make easier for other units in the army to deal with the rest of enemy force. I am really grateful for that piece of advice! Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:17 pm 
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I have 2 units of 5 in my 2.4k army and use them with my 2 great eagles which work well for dealing with small units and war machines, as long as you keep them 6" away from the eagles (not to cause panic if they do die). I don't give them bows as it just seems like a waste of points.


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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:30 pm 
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i'm desperately trying to find points for bows on them, The bow is useful for shooting things like weapons teams, meaning you can use your real shooting to shoot big targets.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:39 pm 
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I think they are better with bows. I have found out it is also a psychological weapon when you target enemy troops with shooting. You might not inflict a lot of damage but that makes ER a little more annoying. Hunting down weapon teams, fanatics etc. is also an option then too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:40 pm 
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geoguswrek wrote:
i'm desperately trying to find points for bows on them, The bow is useful for shooting things like weapons teams, meaning you can use your real shooting to shoot big targets.


Most High Elf lists don't have real shooting. Often times, a unit of Archers will struggle to kill a weapon team.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Curu: As aforementioned the list i'm toying with is pretty heavy in the shooting department (i'm trying to get back to the things that worked well for me in 7th and re-fitting them to work in 8th).

However if you are short on shooting then the bows are really handy, because some shooting is always useful: killing weapons teams and fanatics as well as popping the odd wound off a character and keeping wizards in units where you can kill them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Point taken. I still believe Reavers are too expensive for being special and for what they bring. sure, they can flee and free reform but often times you only need to block something for a single movement phase. For this, Great Eagles are way better.

I'd love for someone to prove me wrong and find a really good spot for Reavers in a competitive environment.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:29 pm 
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geoguswrek wrote:
I'm toying with a shooty, woodelf style high elf list

Have you seen this thread Geo?

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=34333

geoguswrek wrote:
Holding up an enemy unit for no loss

This is the advantage Reavers have over Eagles. Of course Eagles can pull the trick I described but as krysith pointed out to me, next turn they have enemy within a couple of inches and can't move at all, which is why Feigned Flight is good.

Despite my posts, Dark Riders are better than Reavers I think, mainly due to the shooting. It's not a huge difference though. Compare Shades and Shadow Warriors. They can do much the same kind of things (war machines, diverting) but Shades have real firepower and SW's dont. That's a bigger difference.

One virtue of the soft lists I am running is I get to try anything I like out and see how it works. So far I've been pleased with Reavers and unimpressed with Shadow Warriors. Even against the Daemons I fought the Reavers did well. So if my next army draft keeps the Reavers and drops the SW's the list becomes stronger. Eventually, the incremental changes will leave me with a hard list. Whether the Reavers will still be in at that point is an open question.

Feigned Flight is a useful tactic. But with Vanguard they get forward much faster than other cavalry and can be a real threat if you've spotted an opening.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:34 am 
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I like shadow warriors mainly for defensive duties: they are spectacular at keeping the enemy scouts away (because if they scout too close you can deploy your scouts normally, in their flank arc, and then declare a first turn charge and get rid of them). That said you pay an indecent premium for the ability to do this. Reavers however fill a few handy roles: they are hard to kill banners in blood and glory; with vanguard they are pretty scary for enemy warmachines; they are hard to eliminate light shooting; they can delay the enemy for a few turns (you only NEED to delay the enemy by one turn, you often WANT to delay them by many) and they do this for no vp loss.

Plus let us not forget that reavers often don't die if used properly, as people are going away from traditional shooting in this edition.

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 Post subject: Re: ellyrian reavers?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:53 am 
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Well played Sir
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Location: Queensland, Australia
SpellArcher wrote:
But with Vanguard they get forward much faster than other cavalry and can be a real threat if you've spotted an opening.


And an opening for Reavers is what a couple of inches? So easy to slip behind enemy lines ^_^

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