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 Post subject: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Hey guys.

I have been working on a prince to destroy enemy's lord and I have a question about ASF and ASL.

I will take a Vampire Lord for example. If he has the ASF ability but he has a great weapon, he will then strike at his Initiative. But what happen to my Prince that do not have the ASL condition ?
Does he still have his re-roll or does the ASF ability from the vampire cancel it even if it is supposed to be cancelled by the ASL ability ?

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:58 pm 
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They specifically lose the ASF ability when they get the great weapon, so the re-rolls would still count as long as you have the same or higher initiative.

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:04 pm 
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The ASL rules states that if you have both, neither applies. Although it's ambiguous I think it's more likely that the developers intended you to have re-roll against such a foe. Although it simply says that ASF does not apply, and does not specifically state that the rule is removed.

The rules entry for ASF reads 'If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, an neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule'. This would suggest that the two go hand in hand (re-rolls lost and simultaneous attacks). Furthermore, it requires the enemy to have the same "ability", not the same "special rule". You could interpret this to mean the same level of ability, which a character burdened with ASL does not have.

It is an interesting point you bring up though. Technically a character with ASF and ASL still has ASF...

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Yeah this is exactly why I am asking you how I should play this.

Because it is also said that ASL cancel ASF...

" If the model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies ....

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Technically you should strike in init order as you both have asf. Personally I'd see it that the elf should strike first as he doesnt have the asl effect from great weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Caradryal, ASL cancel ASF and the Vamp will strike after the Prince. But it's more about the re-roll to hit that I am wondering :)

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Hmm sorry my jumbled reply didnt really make sense. I think the elf gets rerolls as the vamps asf has been cancelled by the asl so technically he no longer has asf.

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Any of you had this happen in tournament ? How did you solve the problem ?

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:16 am 
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Nothing on this in FAQs or ETC faq

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Well it happened yesterday again. We were 6 playing ( 3x 1vs1 ) and I had to be against the VC...

Of course the VC player think I do not have my reroll but I asked the other players and 2 were thinking I should have them.
We played like if I had them.

I did not win ( I was VERY unlucky with dice.. shit happen .. ) but it's a rule that should be clarified because it can change a game , especially against the VC.

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:41 pm 
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rulebook clearly states that ASL nullifies ASF and the model is not affect by any of those rules any more.

in short VC always strikes in I order and has no rerolls. your prince gets rerolls normally.


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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Cptcosmic, yes I agree.

So in short this should happen like this :

Vampire Lord got ASF and a Great Weapon. So ASL cancel ASF.
Then we look at the I to see who have more.
Obviously it's my Prince who still has ASF and more I ( 8 ).
So he get the re-roll.

But my opponent is saying that yes they are cancelled but he still have ASF as a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:25 am 
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Selvhan wrote:
But my opponent is saying that yes they are cancelled but he still have ASF as a rule.

the rulebook actually says that a model affected by both rules has none of them :) it also does not matter that he has that rule cause it has no effect.

no effect = no benefit, I dont see how you can even argue for it and the best solution would be to not play with such a moron.


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 Post subject: Re: ASF and ASL
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:41 am 
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Sometimes finding out about a rule that works against you suddenly makes a sensible player do moronic things.

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