Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:28 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: New HE player, part II
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
First, THANK YOU for all your advice and help to date. This is a great board and I can tell from the kindess I've been shown that you folks are good people. :)

Ok. So, I am now the owner of the IoB HE, a box of Dragon Princes and I'm at a loss for what to do next. I think I've searched and read so much, it's all blurring together now. Haha.

So, I do like the units in the IoB box. And I'm not in love with the sculpts in the battalion boxed set, to be honest. I think the IoB stuff looks much cooler. I like the look of the Phoenix Guard and I like the fluff.

Just not sure how to go now. I could just pick up the battalion box anyway, and have a bunch of core units, but I can't help but feel that those models might be redone soon. I could be wrong, though. Anyway, I guess I'm used to seeing large units in my dwarven army (infantry-based), so I'm weirded out by the smaller numbers thing with HE. :)

So, say I wanted to beef up the Sea Guard--and use them as an all-around Core base for a 2,000pt army---would this be wise? Am I looking at a horde, or smaller units? How many should I shoot for?

I know I want to up my Dragon Princes count. Maybe another box of 5? Not sure. Never done Cav before.

Guess I just need help. My enemies will be Skaven, WoC-Nurgle, DE, VC. Friendly games, maybe a few at a local store.

Thanks again!!
Mark


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 848
well sea guard have their uses, but are expensive!
the battalion box is the best value and allows you to sort your core out for battles upto about 1500 i think.
to be honest though, i wouldnt advocate buying stuff you dont want. go with what you think is coolest, looks the best etc. so long as you've got 25% core, you'll be able to make it work. seaguard kind of need to be about 20 strong minimum though, otherwise you get no benefit from the spears and archers work out more efficient in combat.
whether its an all-archer build, seaguard block, all spears or a mix of spear blocks and small archer units, they're all viable depending on play style.

DP's rock, if you're looking at going cavalry heavy, then have a read through the cavalry prince blog on the army lists forum, (the very famous!!) seredain has a tactica on there for larger cavalry units.

_________________
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:11 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12787
Location: Otherworld
I agree, go with the LSG as you like them best.

15 could be Ok for a Mage Bunker but 20 or preferably 25 for a combat unit. Horde could be Ok but it's committal.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:44 am
Posts: 11
For the most part, the conventional wisdom seems to be that LSG are less effective than archers at shooting (that 6" range does make a difference) and not efficient at combat compared to spearelves. However, I tend to resist this as I like the flexibility of the LSG and the ability to sort of "hold them back" and take a few shots until they can contribute to a combat with more effective special units. I've tried a horde before, but found that it greatly reduced their flexibility. As a result, depending on the size of the game, I'd work up to 28 strong (don't go heavily over your min requirement though), after that, you don't get as much value in my opinion. In many cases I find that running a 24-28 group of LSG and use small groups of archers to fill out core to be the best bet. In larger games, once you can get to 2 groups of 24, that works pretty well too.

As for what you should pick up, that's tough. The battalion box will allow you to get larger groups of LSG and gives you some archers. Unfortunately, the LSG/spearelves are really ugly. What I did was just place them in the rear behind the IOB ones. I've also had some luck picking up LSG from people who bought IOB, but it is difficult to get a good sized unit of them on their own. I believe that you can order LSG models alone for like $13 from GW for five.

As for dragon princes, five is usually enough until you hit around 2500 point games. Those five are a great strike force, but won't be great for extended combat. After that, larger units are less efficient, but fairly durable. Most "cavalry hammer" approaches (something I'm pretty new to honestly) seem to prefer Silver Helms. On their own though, DPs are just better overall.

As for phoenix guard, there doesn't seem to be much love for them. However, I've not really tried them yet either--swordmasters are pretty awesome IF you get them to combat without being chewed to ribbons; White Lions are more durable overall than SM due to stubborn and the white lion cloak (lots of people seem to like them for this).

I hope some of this is helpful.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Posts: 633
Location: Washington, DC
DPs are great, but I recommend only using them in groups of 5 (so if you do get a 2nd box, I'd set it up for a second unit of 5). DPs are great; first rank you are paying 30 points for 2 attacks WS 5, S5. Second rank, you are paying 30 points for only one more attack. Not a huge difference, but it decreases your kills/points ratio. I know some people use two ranks of DPs and it works for them though. I just feel, generally, 2 units of cav is always better than one, as two units of cav working together makes it harder for your opponent to block them with his own cavalry. SHs are used by Seredain as a prince/bsb delivery "bus", where the prince and BSB dish out the kills, and SH absorb casualties from shooting and combat.

As for LSG, they can be good. I agree in nothing less than 20, as that increases their fighting ability. I use both them and an archer/spear mix, depending on the battle. LSG are great against heavy offensive armies, but against an all-comers list, archers are better, as that 6' increase in range allows you to basically eliminate handgun shooting for a turn if you play it right. LSG can work against an all-comers, but in some games you may lose their shooting effectiveness as you are sort of forced to get close ASAP if you don't have a range advantage over your opponent.

PG are a unit that aren't "killy", but they are useful. I don't use them, but I've seen them used effectively. Basically, with PG expect them to not die and hold up an enemy unit for a while, allowing your DPs to charge in the flank and force a break test. PG will not win combat alone like SM will, but they are more survivable than SM or WL, so you can expect that they will be sticking around for a while in combat (great for tying up that one unit you need to overpower while you set up flank charges). PG can be made more killy by giving them the razor banner (armor piercing). This gives them the same armor modifier as SM, while they still don't have the sheer number of attacks. I generally go with WL, simply because they are the "middle path." They are more resilient than SM, and more killy than PG, but not the best elite choice at either. Stubborn makes of for their lack of survivability over PG and their lack of kills of SM tho, in my opinion, but if you like PG, you can make them work.

As for what you get next, I'd say the battalion box is the most logical choice, but if you don't like them, then don't get it! More than half the hobby is painting, so you may as well like the models you are painting anyway. Pick up whatever look cool and is useful in battle. If you like the LSG, then get more LSG models from the GW website to boost their number and then get whatever else looks cool (you do need more core, so core is probably a priority, but only get things you like how they look, or figure out how to convert them to something that you do like).

_________________
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:19 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
The best advice I can give you is to start small and find out what you like to play with. A lot of players like infantry, some like monsters, the newest bandwagon is Cavalry Hammers (which I jumped on myself as I've always been a fan of cavalry).

Use models for other units (proxy) to discover how they play before you spend all your money at something you don't know what is. If it's not for you, try again. After that, make sure you get some kind of a goal. Try to build your army slowly but surely towards it, one piece at a time.

As for Sea Guard, I would never use them. They're simply put too expensive. Our Elves die so quickly that I can't justify their cost when all they do is put out S3 hurt, something we already do fairly well from other units. If you like the models, I'd advice you remove the bows with a knife / appropriate modeling tools and use them as Spearelves. I have yet to see a player be successful with LSG in this edition. The few HE armies that have been successful all feature a standard core of Spears + Archers and usually Teclis + elite infantry

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
First, thank you all for your advice/feedback.

Ok, I went a little crazy on eBay and now I have this in my HE collection. I probably need some guidance on Specials and Rares. Also, am I crazy for wanting the Double Dragon??? Haha. I love the idea that I can have dragons. So cool.

CORE
10 x Lothern Sea Guard with command
10 x Lothern Sea Guard with command
10 x Lothern Sea Guard with command
10 x Lothern Sea Guard with command

SPECIAL
10 x Sword Masters with command
10 x Sword Masters with command
5 x Ellyrian Reavers with command
5 x Dragon Princes

LORDS/HEROES
1 x Mage
1 x Lord on Gryphon

Now, I know The Sea guard could be stacked several different ways. Sadly, I'm not sure if the command unit can blend into the block (I'm sure I can do something about that). So, Core should be covered for now. I may move into Archers at some point. I can tell the gang the Sea Guard are Spearelves if I need to. That won't be too hard, I don't think.

SO...Phoenix Guard, White Lions, etc. Any thoughts? Also, should I just do the one dragon at a time, or jump in like crazy??? Bottom line, I play for fun. I'm cool with picking minis I like and losing with them. I like the looks of both units, but I know if I did Lions, then I'd have to do the Lion Chariot, because that looks crazy awesome.

Thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:59 am
Posts: 654
Location: South of the Equator
Definitely combine some of those Seaguard. Perhaps two units of 20? Or even one big unit of 40 (!). Stick the Swordmasters in a unit of 18... If you like the White Lion models, get them. Lion Chariots are fairly good buys too, so yeah... Definitely toss in an eagle or two. They're our best unit! :) Gamezone makes some nice models for them.

_________________
What happened to you Ulthuan? You used to be so cool... :(


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:34 am 
Offline
Auctor Aeternitatum
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 7330
Location: The city of Spires
LSG in units of 10 are almost useless. They turn into expensive archers with shorter range and a 5+ save. Because you fight in 2 ranks normally anyway you get the same combat output as with archers.

I would combine them into 2 blocks of 20 minimum to start with.

Then, because you have 2 static blocks to act as an anvil I would probably go for the WL, not PG. PG are designed to hold up your opponent and stick around against pretty much anything. You already have LSG to fill this role. So I would go for the WL to deal out damage. The WLC is a good support unit. Great at flank charging and when combined with other HE units.

As for dragons, I would start with one and take it from there. Use it and see if you like it. It is one of the models that is easily found in games shops and on ebay, so you should have no trouble getting the second one quickly anyway.

Rod

_________________
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
Thanks so far! And hey, I should mention, I didn't plan on fielding them as 10 with FC, I just bought them that way from the IoB set. So, I'd imagine that I could stack them in the back or just withhold them as needed.

I was thinking 20-25 myself. So, you guys think WL are the next focal point? What size would you go for? (And help a noob! The chariot box has both types, right?)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:26 am 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12787
Location: Otherworld
Curu Olannon wrote:
I have yet to see a player be successful with LSG in this edition.

I suspect It'll happen at some point. They were not popular under 7th then guys like Mr Spiers started winning tourneys with them. What build they would work with though and in what size I just don't know.

manitoujoe wrote:
So, you guys think WL are the next focal point?

As winning is not your primary motivation, I'd really just go for the figures you like best.

manitoujoe wrote:
What size would you go for?

I think it depends how you build your army. If you want elite infantry as your primary focus I'd go for around 20. If they are a support element around 15. Seredain gets away with 12 and I'm actually going to try 10 but this is chancing your arm!

manitoujoe wrote:
The chariot box has both types, right?)

Yes.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:32 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7803
Location: Queensland, Australia
the command group won't fit in as normal seaguard super well, but if you don't count the extra commands you have two units of 17 which is okay, or one of upto 31, at 25 they look great 5x5 it's like a box of awesome, if you want to expand them just grab a box of spear elves and paint them up to look like the seaguard and hide them in the middle, no one will even notice them. White lions are great I just hate the models, and yea the chariot comes with the bits to make either.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
UPDATE! My buddy just bought another IoB set. So, like add 10 more Sea Guard, etc. Hahaha


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:18 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7803
Location: Queensland, Australia
I hate you =P IoB is good value, I started my army with two of them.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
Hm. So no PG then? Dang. I love the models and I think the fluff is sweet. So, my LSG would be used to hold up units. I'll likely face DE a lot, as they guys I play with love them. Does this make a difference? Or does the WL make even more sense with the added missile fire?

So, what about chariots? How many would you take? Is 1 enough? I ask bec I always see multiple chariots in the TK armies. Or do I need them with the 5 DP and 10 ER I have already?

Thanks!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
UPDATE:

Ok, I bought 2 boxes of PG. I know they aren't as sexy as WL right now, but I think the idea of having a resilient, dependable unit in a T3 army is too good to pass up. Also, they look INSANELY AWESOME and they already know the future. So, that means I'll probably always win. ;)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 848
Pg are cool, just don't expect them to kill much. They are the best anvil we've got though, so team them up with heavy hitters like dp or sm

_________________
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
Do you think I need more than 5 DP?

I've got a BUNCH of SM now. So, I can use that as my Knife. And the Block will be my PG. That gives me a solid base. I think I've got 30 SM, give or take. (Command units from IOB get in the way, but can re-use the leader, but not the other 2).

Cav-wise, I've got 10 Reavers and 5 DP. I could pick up another box, if it's worth it. I'd like to eventually do a Double Dragon. So, that's my goal.

Thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:16 am 
Offline
Well played Sir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 7803
Location: Queensland, Australia
Five DP are pretty good and fantastic value.

_________________
Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.
Narrin’Tim wrote:
These may be the last days of the Asur, but if we are to leave this world let us do it as the heroes of old, sword raised against evil!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
So you think 10 DP might be overkill?

Also, picked up that Lord/Mounted thing for a BSB yesterday. Man, am I getting excited over this!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:43 pm 
Offline
Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12787
Location: Otherworld
manitoujoe wrote:
So you think 10 DP might be overkill?

Five are a common pick as the only cavalry unit to support an army focused on elite infantry blocks. If you take more you start to go more 'combined arms'. 10 is fine though, whether 2x5 or a single block, the latter maybe with a character.

_________________
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:57 pm 
Offline
Vindicated Strategist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:21 am
Posts: 4929
Location: Oslo, Norway
I've found that 10 DP are a real killer unit. That being said, they're very expensive and I doubt they can operate well on their own. Either make 2 units of 5 if you play a typical infantry force, or combine them with even more cavalry in a cavalry hammer(s) approach.

_________________
Retired from Warhammer. Playing Warmachine & Hordes (Cygnar).

Follow me on Courage of Caspia, my blog.

Warhammer blogs from 2011-2015:

:: Path to Glory - High Elves Army Blog ::
:: Curu Olannon's Vindicators - 2500 points Army Blog (Old book, outdated) ::


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:29 pm
Posts: 28
Other posters are correct, the sea guard need to be in bigger units.

Like you, I hate the spear elves models as the sea guard ones are great.

I've done some very basic conversions with some models though....

Sword masters. The musician, I've carfull got rid of the horn and added a sword. Its not a double handed weapon but he is barely noticable in the unit and whos to say that a sword master must have a great big sword. Maybe some are sword masters cause they can use two swords or something!

I've also taken the sea guard standard and cut it down and added an elf spear head form a lance. Again, its not noticeable in a unit of 25 or so.

Just a thought!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:21 am
Posts: 20
Sweet idea! Ok, looks like I've got 40+ SG, 20 PG, 23+ SM, 5 DP, 10 ER.

I figure until I can afford the Double Dragons, I can plant the Mage in the PG, have two SM flankers and 2 RE on side duty with DP with the assist. When I say "+", I mean I've got FC units that I am going to try and convert to help flesh out numbers. Maybe drop in a unit filler somewhere. :)

Can you guys think of anything I'm missing??

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group