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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:30 am 
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What was Bobo's exact list like Durantw? I am going to assume he used Book of Hoeth and Lore of Shadows and that his 45 shooters were Archers. That leaves a lot of room for characters, and spears! Are youu sure he didn't take anything else like Chariots or Silverhelms?


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:04 am 
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It was on TWF.

Archmage shadow BoH
BSB equipment unknown, I would assume reaver bow or radiant gem ( I would take death to kill aboms/hydras) Reaver Bow in unit with flaming banner would be ace if legal.

36 spears
25 spears
25 spears
12 archers
12 archers
12 archers
4 Bolters
4 eagles

2400 points I think.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Reaver Bow + Banner of Eternal Flame is legal. While I definitely think he took the Flame Banner, I am still not quite sure what he took on his BSB. Reaver Bow is still a very likely candidate but Loremasters Cloak for a "poor man's Banner of the World Dragon" is a possibility as well.

Can you give us the exact link? I am having a hard time fidning it on TWF.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:55 pm 
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http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&start=90

He didnt post items though.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Durnantw wrote:
It was on TWF.

Archmage shadow BoH
BSB equipment unknown, I would assume reaver bow or radiant gem ( I would take death to kill aboms/hydras) Reaver Bow in unit with flaming banner would be ace if legal.

36 spears
25 spears
25 spears
12 archers
12 archers
12 archers
4 Bolters
4 eagles

2400 points I think.


Interesting list, though I don't see why some of those Spears weren't PG. Impressive indeed to finish top10 with no-special HE!

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:29 pm 
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His list in full: (I know as i'm playing it at an ETC warm up event next month as part of his team ;))

1, Archmage, General, Level 4, (shadow), Book of Hoeth 360 points
1, Noble, Battle Standard, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone 168 points

37, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame 368 points
24, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician, 241 points
24, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician 241 points
13 Archers, Musician 148 points
12 Archers, Musician 137 points
12 Archers, Musician 137 points

4, Repeater Bolt Throwers 400 points
4, Great Eagles 200 points

Only thing he said he would change is adding the reaver bow to the bsb as he wasn't impressed by it in combat.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:32 pm 
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the flame banner doesnt make the shooting from the reaver bow flaming attacks


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:52 pm 
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I am ashamed of Bobo for taking such cookie-cutter Character builds! Playing all core is no excuse! [-X

But all in all, that list is really, really cool. I would field it myself if I had the models (I only have 2 RBT, 2 Eagles, and ~60-70 spears)


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Botjer wrote:
the flame banner doesnt make the shooting from the reaver bow flaming attacks


Forgive my ignorance, but why is this?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Simple problem with high elven characters they mostly are cookie cutter or a bit rubbish if you are running Archmage + BSB only.

Flaming attacks and magical weapons do not stack unless the magic weapon says it gives flaming attacks. Its under the flaming attack rules somewhere I believe.

If you place the banner on an archer unit and put the bsb in another you can drop regen with the first unti then reaver away but its better to have the spears flamed up as then they can walk over regening troops in combat. And wither plus shooting will down most monsters regardless of regen.

I've had the flaming spears walk over a fully life buffed temple guard unit already (he had shield, regen and flesh. I mindrazored and withering...) with only about 30 spears left I still demolished his unit easily (killed all 20)

With the spears/PG i think its down to effective unit size if you swap a spear unit to phoneix guard with FC you only get 14 which will not do what the army needs (delete enemy units in one round of combat with magic support) I must admit I've missed the BOS but it fit it and a decent PG unit in i'd have to lose 24 spears and an archer unit for a 20 man PG unit with banner. The spears/archer combo does what the army needs better. 12 mindrazored archers are almost as a good as the PG after all.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:18 pm 
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I have experimented with the "Shadow Levy" style before. My biggest concern was that it became all about the Archmage. In games where I lost him early it was pretty much game over. I started bringing Razor Swordmasters for this reason.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:32 pm 
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I've lost him and had him drop all his wizard levels early twice and drew both. I like the list at a competitive event but its not what I would play for fun or against mates.

Hmmm I'm not sure about razor SM's. If i took any elites it would be to shoe in the banner of sorc. Part of me is tempted to run it on the bsb just to get it in of course for ETC it couldn't generate any dice so would be completely wasted.

I love the cav builds but with everyone and their dog pooing out killing blows the prince and his heavy cav is a liability so often. I have about 16 battle reps i really should write up using him and in at least 6 he gets kb'ed by something


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:57 pm 
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It is really cool to see this tactic being used. If not for the Comp restrictions, would you be tempted take Sea Guards as well? Sea Guard are the enigma of the High Elves that I am trying to master. The bows at 4 points a pop are probably not worth it though, since thats half a spearelf!

I got the idea to go core heavy when I wanted to kick it old school and take it back to the Storm of Chaos days (weird that Sea Patrol is old school now... time flies!). So we are talking Sea Guards, RBT, eagles, and even the Sea Rangers (Shadow Warriors).

I quickly resorted to the Shadow Lore to win my games and after a while had to settle for the Book/Teclis. I also realized I needed two very amazing magic Banners: Banner of the World Dragon and Banner of Sorcery, so in the end I had to crack and take ONE elite unit, (for fluff/coolness factor, I picked Swordmasters to escort my wizard).

I think I could make it without the World Dragon though, maybe I will give a Banner of Sorcery BSB a try to make it a TRUE Sea Patrol (dropping the Swordmasters).


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Curu Olannon wrote:
Botjer wrote:
the flame banner doesnt make the shooting from the reaver bow flaming attacks


Forgive my ignorance, but why is this?

flaming attacks special rule states that it doesn't apply to magic weapons

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:08 pm 
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Eldria wrote:
I love the cav builds but with everyone and their dog pooing out killing blows the prince and his heavy cav is a liability so often. I have about 16 battle reps i really should write up using him and in at least 6 he gets kb'ed by something

See, I think Seredain would have an answer for this. Maybe not a complete answer but some kind of answer. But the thing about his list for me is that it was written by him for him. He understands what he's trying to do with it, while another player for instance might just be better at using PG and hence would be better off with a build that made use of that unit.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:21 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Eldria wrote:
I love the cav builds but with everyone and their dog pooing out killing blows the prince and his heavy cav is a liability so often. I have about 16 battle reps i really should write up using him and in at least 6 he gets kb'ed by something

See, I think Seredain would have an answer for this. Maybe not a complete answer but some kind of answer. But the thing about his list for me is that it was written by him for him. He understands what he's trying to do with it, while another player for instance might just be better at using PG and hence would be better off with a build that made use of that unit.


+1.

As to killing blow - you can mostly angle so that only a couple of models face your character, assuming you're not in a challenge. The short story is that there is no good answer to it. The 'solution' or whatever you want to call it is that with the mobility and hitting power of our cavalry prince builds, you rarely stay around for a second turn. If you do, it's likely due to a tough character - which is perfect for a challenge - leaving your Prince out of harm's way.

I'm guessing I'll face Trolls again tomorrow and to be honest they scare me more - especially Throgg. S5 auto-hits, no armour save. Bah! Again though, most of the time, you get to pick your fights. Don't forget that you usually outdeploy him as well, due to lots of non-committing drops. This, coupled with superior mobility, should ensure your Prince is somewhat safe - even when everyone and their mother sports Killing Blow.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:27 am 
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I'm guessing the main problem is the Cauldron, which can move it's Killing Blow around but again, you know it's there, you know what it can do.

The 4+4 Rares list looks like a good shout for RBT spam though.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Eldria wrote:
His list in full: (I know as i'm playing it at an ETC warm up event next month as part of his team ;))

1, Archmage, General, Level 4, (shadow), Book of Hoeth 360 points
1, Noble, Battle Standard, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone 168 points

37, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame 368 points
24, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician, 241 points
24, Spearelves Sentinel, Standard Bearer, Musician 241 points
13 Archers, Musician 148 points
12 Archers, Musician 137 points
12 Archers, Musician 137 points

4, Repeater Bolt Throwers 400 points
4, Great Eagles 200 points

Only thing he said he would change is adding the reaver bow to the bsb as he wasn't impressed by it in combat.


This is the coolest HE-List I have ever seen! =D>
No stupid elite units! Unfortunatly BOH is not allowed at our tournements, and i dont think this list can win without it.
But I will try it versus some friends


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Todesguck wrote:
This is the coolest HE-List I have ever seen!

It could be a bit frustrating to play against, RBT and Eagles are often comped lower for this reason. Plus IF Mindrazor is public enemy no1 at a lot of tournaments right now.

It is nice to see lots of Core working though and I for one think RBT's add flavour to a HE list.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:06 pm 
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My thoughts on seaguard are simply that seperate archers and spears are always better. I've tried seaguard and the lack of range and desire to move compared to archers and lack of bodies compared to spears kill them for me.

SpellArcher wrote:
Eldria wrote:
I love the cav builds but with everyone and their dog pooing out killing blows the prince and his heavy cav is a liability so often. I have about 16 battle reps i really should write up using him and in at least 6 he gets kb'ed by something

See, I think Seredain would have an answer for this. Maybe not a complete answer but some kind of answer. But the thing about his list for me is that it was written by him for him. He understands what he's trying to do with it, while another player for instance might just be better at using PG and hence would be better off with a build that made use of that unit.


While I agree with you in theory and have nothing but respect for Sere, he doesn't play against the kind of armies i've been running into. (his OnG guy didn't have chaff and many skulkers or a Doomdiver for example)

I'll show you my examples of where the cav prince doesn't work:

OnG: Playing 3 bolt throwers, 2 doom divers some manglers and all goblin blocks. The problem is simple: You have to either kill the DD's or engage rapidly with you cav. With eagles also needed for mangler duty and being shot up by bolt throwers its hard to risk leaving the cav back. So you advance. Hit a goblin unit and sproing nasty skulkers = dead prince (for some reason the people i play always always roll that damn 6)

Dark Elves: Cauldron pretty much casts an exclusion zone or you have to risk it. They are easier to outmaneuver because of the lack of WM threat but if they have a good turn of bolt thrower killing then they will win the ranged fight with shades really damned fast. Also mindrazor will demolish the prince as easily and with a 36" range good luck dodging it. Even if you one turn a combat you are all but certain to overrun into another one or face a charge.

Choas: With Hell cannons and MOT everywhere. Stay out of combat to flank them and you get cannon/gateway'd. get stuck in head first and you'll get stomped and i'm not even talking about chosen here. (I have tried both ways)

So while I love combat princes and will still use them it is frustrating how easy many many armies find killing them.

Oh and spot on spellarcher. Dwellers and purple sun are not the most broken spells in 8th. It is and always has been the razor ;)


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Eldria wrote:
While I agree with you in theory and have nothing but respect for Sere, he doesn't play against the kind of armies i've been running into.

We always told him he needed to broaden his range and to his credit he said he would try and front up at a tourney sometime. Maybe he'll have something to say when he resurfaces!

:)

Eldria wrote:
OnG: Playing 3 bolt throwers, 2 doom divers some manglers and all goblin blocks.

Don't. I'm still having nightmares about the last Goblin army I played. I'm wondering if Charmed Shield's worth a look but it nerfs the armour save.

Eldria wrote:
if they have a good turn of bolt thrower killing then they will win the ranged fight with shades really damned fast.

Well this is a good point against RBT spam isn't it! The firepower of these scouting units (Shades, Gutter Runners, Chameleons) is indecent.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:33 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Eldria wrote:
if they have a good turn of bolt thrower killing then they will win the ranged fight with shades really damned fast.

Well this is a good point against RBT spam isn't it! The firepower of these scouting units (Shades, Gutter Runners, Chameleons) is indecent.


Well the spam army can normally castle up and shoot them off the board, Shades really dislike being bolt throwered but your chances of losing 1-2 are pretty high. And of course castling and not providing a pit of shades target it hard but luckily most people drop it against us so its okay :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:49 pm 
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The last tournament I was in (last weekend, I went 3-0 by the way :mrgreen: ) I played the Watchtower scenario and 3 bolt throwers (plus Archers) with curse of arrow attraction made it so that the unit of Grave Guard inside weren't as much of a threat when I decided to charge.

It's funny, people will say that bolt throwers arent that good, but when you put 3 down on the table at the same time you can see the gears turning in the other fellows head. Since I also run 3 Eagles, I can almost always put the bolt throwers exactly where I want. I do run a little bit of an unorthodox list -- but it wins.


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