High Magic on Archmage

[Frezzwar]

Okay, I have not used High Magic very much in 8th. If i do, it will only be on a level 2 for Drain Magic and a ward save.
But... I have been thinking a little, and after a look at High Magic, I see that it is still very powerful.

First of, we have Shield of Saphery. Cast on 5+, meaning that a level 2 need to roll 3 to cast it, same as a level 4. 5+ ward save on a single unit can save a lot! Spearmen getting charged by something evil, but is steadfast in first round? Give them a ward save, and you will lose a third less models.
Who can NOT think of a good situation to give your units a ward save?

Second, we have Curse of Arrow Attraction. Re-roll all shooting on a single unit. Cast this spell on your opponents horde, and see it die. Cast it on a dragon, and that dragon will not trouble you again. Cast on a 6+ means a level 2 need to roll 4, and a level 4 need to roll 3. Yet again, it is easy to cast, and it makes your shooting much more deadly.

Third, we have Courage of Aenarion. Okay, this spell can be good. I'm no fan, but making all units inside a bauble of 12'' stubborn, it rely good. Playing a little defensive, this can make your archers stubborn, meaning they wont break, and you can make a counter charge. This is mostly good against hordes of elite units, because you will often be steadfast against smaller units. It can also be used on a Great Eagle trying to hold your flank.
It is cast on 8+, meaning a level 2 need to roll 6, and a level 4 need to roll 4.

At number four we have Fury of Khaine. Magic missile cast on 8+. 24'' range 2d6 s4. That is an average of 7 hits, and is very good at taking out support units and making the final wound on a monster. This spell is simple, and is often one of the spells I cast most often.

Fifth, Flame of the Phoenix. Cast on 11+, meaning a level 2 need to roll 9 and a level 4 need to roll 7. 24'' range, Remains in play. This spell can ruin any horde unit. As the spell is cast, it gives a s3 hit to all models in the targeted unit. Next of your own magic phase, every model in the same unit takes a s4 hit. Next magic phase it takes a s5. That will just keep on growing. After a few turns, this spell destroys any unit.
If your opponent wants to dispel it, he need to use at least 3 PD/DD, if he wants to be sure.

Sixth, next to last, we have Vaul's Unmaking. Cast on 12+, meaning a level 2 need to roll 10 and a level 4 need to roll 8. This spell is just awesome. This spell can be cast on a unit, and your opponent need to reveal ALL magic items inside that units. Magic banners. Magic items on champ, and magic items on chars. You then choose one, and destroys that item. Facing that big evil orc with a 100 points weapon? Now it is just an axe. This spell can make any char become a weakling. This can everything for just 3 PD.

Last, Drain Magic. Do i need to say anything? This potentially ruins your opponents magic phase. Cast on a 7+, meaning that your level 4 only need to roll a 3! This can be done with a single dice 2/3 part of the game. I fancy that!
If your opponent is under pressure and gets a little distracted, he may easily forget this spell, meaning that he will fail the first spell.


I have not seem many players using High Magic in 8th. I have never done it on a level 4. But i sure will the next few times!
So what do you think? Is it worth it? Am i missing anything? I definitely still think that this lore is awesome!

[Pash]

I think the general consensus is while High Lore is still good and made better in 8th by being easier to cast, it's still not as competitive as Shadow or Life. It has no Lore attribute and while most spells are nice they're not as nice as say, removing an army general/bsb or making your Spearmen S9. It's a good Lore for a secondary caster but I'd keep my Archmage on the BRB Lores for now.

[Jedra]

I have tried it out a few times, and won't go back to it.

Basically the problem is this: yes, individually, all of the spells are "good", and flames of the phoenix is excellent against most armies (and not that expensive either... I believe its the cheapest attack against an entire unit, but I could be wrong).

The problem with it is how varied the spells are. None of the spells even remotely overlap. Whilst this might seem like a strength not a weakness, I consider it to be a problem because it essentially means that the choice as to which spells will be successfully cast is largely in the hands of your opponent.

Take shadow, for instance. Lets say I have a unit of spears in a combat I really need them to win this turn. I try to cast occam's, he dispels. Ok, I think, lets go for one of the hexes... and if he dispels whichever I choose I still have 2 (miasma being the second) spells left that could help them in combat.

Take High magic, same case. I try to cast Shield of Saphery, he dispels it. Now what? Um, I guess I'll cast courage so they don't run away at least? Not really the same thing.

Similar things happen with the other lores. Each one is especially good at a particular thing, so you can take your archmage to plug a particular gap in your army. High magic does lots of things decently, which is good in that you will always have something to do, but this means it cannot focus on something to make sure it gets through when you need to.

[SpellArcher]

What Pash said.

[Awsten]

High magic is great for a level 2 with silver wand... especially if you get flames of pheonix and vauls unmaking...

then trade your 3rd for shield of saphery and youve got quite a nice arsenal of spells to compliment your primary archmage...

[dabber]

the choice as to which spells will be successfully cast is largely in the hands of your opponent.

I had not thought about it like this before, but I think Jedra says it exactly. With the more consistent ratio of power dice to dispel dice in 8th, you cannot force spells through. Flames is great, but it is not nearly as powerful as main lore top spells, so the enemy does not *have* to stop it. They choose what they stop, and with High Magic that lets them control the impact of your magic phase.

[Awsten]

the choice as to which spells will be successfully cast is largely in the hands of your opponent.

I had not thought about it like this before, but I think Jedra says it exactly. With the more consistent ratio of power dice to dispel dice in 8th, you cannot force spells through. Flames is great, but it is not nearly as powerful as main lore top spells, so the enemy does not *have* to stop it. They choose what they stop, and with High Magic that lets them control the impact of your magic phase.

If I were running deathstars I would very much deem flames of pheonix as a must stop. The fact that it wil normally inflict wounds on the first round on either 4+ or 5+ is bad enough (statistically causing a panic test) let alone you then have to spend power dice to try and stop it from going off again. Its a double wammy...

The benefit of remains in play spells like Flames of pheonix is if you are running magic heavy, if the opponent doesn't shut it down it increases your overall magic output round after round...

[KJSparkz]

I've played a magic heavy High magic list and have had some reasonable success with it.Using Teclis and a L4 Archmage and L2 Mage in 3k games putting seerstaff on my L2 and giving silver wand to my L4.

My experience is that Shield of Saphery normally gets left through with opponents fearing Drain Magic,Flames of Phoenix or Vaul's unmaking.I still believe a 5+ ward saves are preferrable to having T7 and no saves. For seerstaff I usually take Flames of Phoenix a Shield with The L4 having 5 spells of the 6 and Drain magic.
Here the stubborn from Courage of Aenarion can make a difference keeping spearmen or whatever you need in the fight til the next turn when you want to get that flank or rear charge. you also can potentially get3 castings of Flames of the Phoenix off in a turn so its either one unit has every model take 3 S3 hits or 3 units all take a S3 hit per model.And this will make sure that enemy magic phase consists of dispelling these three RIPs and maybe casting one other spell on an average Winds of magic roll.
If he ignores the Flames every model takes a S4 hit your next turn and then you can cast it again 3 times and inflict even more casualties. Doing this in the first 2 turns will greatly reduce his key CC units before they reach you and then allows you bolster your defences when the enemy get within charge range.

If you have a shooting army then Curse of Arrow attraction practically guarantees you getting the important units wiped before they reach you.

Vauls unmaking is great for killing enemy magic items and banners such as VC's Helm of Command or the Razor standard etc.

I know its somewhat frowned upon by some going heavy magic but is as legitimate as hordes or gunlines even with Teclis included.

Look forward to hearing your own experiences against opponents using High Magic.

[Celundir]

you also can potentially get3 castings of Flames of the Phoenix off in a turn so its either one unit has every model take 3 S3 hits or 3 units all take a S3 hit per model

How are you getting 3 castings per turn? According to the laws of magic, each spell can only be known once in the same army. There are exceptions, but normally if you roll a spell twice (whether for the same wizard or a different wizard in the same army) you must replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice.

[Bolt Thrower]

you also can potentially get3 castings of Flames of the Phoenix off in a turn so its either one unit has every model take 3 S3 hits or 3 units all take a S3 hit per model

How are you getting 3 castings per turn? According to the laws of magic, each spell can only be known once in the same army. There are exceptions, but normally if you roll a spell twice (whether for the same wizard or a different wizard in the same army) you must replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice.

My guess is taking High on Teclis (who knows all the spells), a lvl 2 with seerstaff (chooses Flames as part of army creation, and the archmage with silver wand who would be the only one of the casters to actually have to roll it up (but the silver wand would basically guarantee getting Flames on the roll or thru choosing it with doubles).

3 castings of flames would be nasty.

[Jedra]

i would also be somewhere in the order of 1000 pts. I'm not sure it would be *that* nasty (especially if compared to the same 1000 pts with a different selection of lores that could complement each other).

[SpellArcher]

I had not thought about it like this before, but I think Jedra says it exactly. With the more consistent ratio of power dice to dispel dice in 8th, you cannot force spells through. Flames is great, but it is not nearly as powerful as main lore top spells, so the enemy does not *have* to stop it. They choose what they stop, and with High Magic that lets them control the impact of your magic phase.

I'm looking at High Magic on a lvl2 as a primarily defensive phase that can still do something if the opponent lacks defence. So with Seerstaff, you get Drain, Flames and one other. You cast these two, perhaps on four dice each. If either gets off you've hampered the other guy's magic phase. You also cast the third spell, preferably one which really annoys him, so he uses up DD.

I don't think it will stand against the strongest phases but under comp it might work.

[KJSparkz]

When I say 3 castings of Flames I do mean Teclis L2 seerstaff and silver wand L4.

Really the reason for selecting High magic and multiple Flames and Shield with the benefit of the other spells is to dominate both magic phases while giving your opponents nasty killy units a good softening up for the first two turns allowing your weaker T3 elites to maximise the damage they do while at the same time minimising any return attacks.
Take for example a horde unit of 50 Chaos Warriors with shields.
Turn 1
First Casting-On average you will wound 16-17 With their 3+ Armour save then 6+ ward they will lose 4 warriors
Second Casting 15 wounds after Armour and Ward saves lose 4 warriors
Third casting 14 wounds after saves 3 wounds.
Taking average power dice in enemy magic phase they dispel 2 castings of Flames.
Turn 2
39 remaining models take a S4 hit thats say 19 wounds now armour save is at -1 so 9 wounds 2 of these saved by 6+ ward takes away 7 more casualties.32 models remain
First Cast at S3 10 wounds 5 saves 1 ward lose 4 warriors
second cast 9 wounds 5 saves 1 ward lose another 3 warriors
third casting 8 wounds 4 saves 1 ward -3 warriors.
22 models left when they reach combat. If Flames not dispelled at all then you are probably talking of about 12 models reaching combat.

You are now free to use your entire army to face less than 3/4 of his army at 3000 points. Now you are free to put Ward saves on your critical units while making your holding units stubborn allowing other units get flank and rear charges on remaining threats.

[Pash]

I'm still baffled about how you can have multiples of the same spell. I though the rule was unless it's the base spell then you can have multiples of it? Meaning, if you have Teclis on High Lore, the rest of your mages can only cast Shield and Drain..

[Jedra]

You cannot have multiple of the same spell if they are randomly generated. Any method which avoids random generation can be multiplied. So:

Loremaster (teclis, has all the spells)
"Picking" items/abilities (Seerstaff)
"Buying" spells (Necromancers)
"Fixed" spells (Tomb Kings)
Swapping spells (e.g. shield of saphery). (actually i'm not sure about this one off the top of my head now that I think about it...)

All these allow duplicates, either with someone randomly generating or with another non-random method.

[Kethnae]

Swapping spells (e.g. shield of saphery). (actually i'm not sure about this one off the top of my head now that I think about it...)

All these allow duplicates, either with someone randomly generating or with another non-random method.

Swappable and/or Signature Spells are included in allowing duplication.
Although it gets a little murkier with the likes of a High Elf Mage with Fire and a Dragon Mage or Skaven Warlocks and a Grey Seer with Ruin spells. In both examples, both may swap for different spells within the same lore. I've yet to find a compelling argument one way or the other that you can/can't double-up one or both possible 'default' spells regardless of who rolls first.

[Arhain]

You cannot have multiple of the same spell if they are randomly generated. Any method which avoids random generation can be multiplied.

I can't find anywhere that this is mentioned.

And also, those default spells specifically say any mage can swap for them in their respective army books.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

In my experiences, Level 2, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand, High Magic lore is the way to go for our basic lore. Wait, I didnt mentioned a level 4 mage! Woah, I think it is a wast as a level 4 mage, but with thise level 2 set-up, it's effective.

[Jedra]

"Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as

* If a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, either because if it fixed by the model's rules, or because it(sic) has bought a specific spell as part of army selection.
*If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question."

p.490 BRB, bottom of first column and top of second. (and the 2nd suggests that even its simply being able to swap it with SOME model, not THAT model... so it seems that the Dragonmage can double up both fireball and flaming sword of rhuin. Though I don't know if this has been FAQed).

edit: Actually, a strict interpretation of that rule implies that if you have 2 fire mages (need not be dragonmages) you can double up flaming sword of rhuin with rolls.

Not that I really see that happening though...

[SpellArcher]

In my experiences, Level 2, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand, High Magic lore is the way to go for our basic lore. Wait, I didnt mentioned a level 4 mage! Woah, I think it is a wast as a level 4 mage, but with thise level 2 set-up, it's effective.

So is this guy your only caster?

[Arhain]

"Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as

* If a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, either because if it fixed by the model's rules, or because it(sic) has bought a specific spell as part of army selection.
*If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question."

Hah, well i'll be...silly to think I could have an army with two dwellers/occam's/purple sun's. They should have said those are the only exceptions instead of "such as". I'm surprised more have not picked up on this Jed, because everyone i've seen, people have overlooked that.

[Ptolemy]

I'm a total fan of Shadow lore myself, however....

I'm starting to come around to the idea that more spells, cast on cheaper values can be better than that one or two big spells that many of the BRB lores have.

I still agree that HEs are best served by using magic to combat buff. So, here is where I am taking my current list.

Level 4 - High Magic w/Silver wand
Level 2 - Fire Magic w/Seerstaff (Fireball and Flaming Sword)
Level 1 RGoH Prince - Beast Lore (Wyssan's)

I'm quickly realizing that HEs are so gifted in 8th ed close combat that we really don't need worldbeater spells like Mindrazor. Instead, I'm focusing on simple buffs that make HE infantry into something truly special.

Flaming Sword is an amazing buff. Its long range, +1 to wound and magical/flaming attacks give you an incredible difference in killing power for meagre power die investment.
Wyssan's is amazing at turning even mundane elf units (like Spears) into something devastating. Cast on our Special infantry, its game over.
High Magic offers Shield which is a perfect fit for our spears or stubborn WLs alike. It also solves our Swordmaster squishy issues.

I don't know how overall effective this will be, but I'm going to run it for a few weeks and get a taste for it.

[threewestwinds]

Ptolemy's point is valid - HE infantry is so good in combat, that against equally sized enemies, powerful buffs/hexes are often overkill. HE blocks wreck opposing blocks, our support units are more than a match for opposing support units. Thus we get what I've been saying for a while - if you're running a traditional HE army, with blocks and small support units, you don't need Shadow.

On the other hand, shadow magic can make our units entirely too powerful for their numbers. Mindrazor will let a unit of 20 spears match most deathstars, and -d3 strength can let a single rank of swordmasters grind through a horde. Those 5 shadow warriors in your deployment zone? Yeah, they just got killed your 1+ rerollable armored general.

That's where shadow's strength is - turning impossibly tiny units into credible threats. If your units are already sized as credible threats, look to another lore (life, light, high) to protect them instead.

[Ptolemy]

@threewestwinds

I'm of a mind to agree with much of what you said with some exceptions.

I'm not a fan of working on survival and protection with my HEs but that is a style choice. Running my White Lions (20 strong) into a helm of commandment ghoul horde made me wish I had shield of saphery though.

Shadow can be overkill. What it does best is making HE spears (because of Citizen Militia) worldbeaters. Anyone who has put Mindrazor on spears knows that they then become insta-win. I killed bloodthirsters, entire blocks of Chaos Warriors, 1+ army lords, etc. However, on most other units in the HE army, Withering is just as effective for a far safer/cheaper cast.

Still, I highly rate Jedra's point. The problem opponents have with dealing with Shadow is the same problem they have dealing with Death. Redundancy. Its true that both lores really only do one job, but hells bells, they do that job really well!

High Magic lacks redundancy. Versatility, under 8th, seems to be a lore weakness. However, I'm wondering if I can't overcome that problem with multiple magical threats that combined grant the redundancy I would otherwise lack. Having Flaming Sword, Wyssans and Shield of Saphery all in the same phase makes for some good close combat magic redundancy. At range, Fireball, Arrow Attraction/Flaming Sword, Fury of Khaine and Flames all make for good long range damage options (Even Wyssans is good here if I need protection from shooting). For utility, I have Courage, Vauls and Drain Magic all of which serve the role of using up remaining dice when you've done what you wanted.

[Jedra]

Given that, High magic is a particularly odd choice for your archmage, especially because the spell you want is the signature spells. If nothing else, I would put beasts on your archmage and high on your RGoH.

This you can cast wildform on 1 dice at a push, 2 dice super reliably and shield on 1 dice at a push, 2 dice super reliably.

Your way around, Shield is cast exactly the same (actually its VERY SLIGHTLY less reliable on 2 dice, 2/36 instead of 1/36 chance of failing) but beast becomes a 3 dice for fairly reliable and 4 dice for dead certain casting (ouch), doubling your cost for the same effect.

This would also get you more usable combat buffs. Curse of Anraheir is a nice spell though, too, as it is multifunctional. Cast it on someone in combat, and its a nice, solid (though somewhat minimal) hex. If you are being hit on 4s or 5s (not uncommon) it is as effective as the shield (both cut your wounds down by 1/3). But it really comes into its own if you have done a flank charge... say with a unit of SMs... as it effects all units the enemy is fighting. It also has a battlefield control role, working a like a poor man's fuliminating flame cage (they move and 1/3 of them die? nice). Also, with your characters, the character buffs can't suck. Ok you sacrifice the potential for flames of the phoenix for this (which IS a big sacrifice) so its not a perfect swap. But if your goal is combat buffs, high magic is just the worst one to pick for your archmage, as the only buff it has wastes that lovely +4 bonus of his (and can be taken by ANY mage of yours because its the sig spell).

[Ptolemy]

Fair points, Jedra. I'm seeing it from the other way around though.

My goal isn't to maximize combat buffs. If I wanted to do that, I'll stick with Shadow since it has the best ones. My goal is to create dispel overload problems that let me do what I want with the magic phase. High magic is really the only lore with the versatility (and redundancy when combined with signature spells from other lores) that allows me to cheaply cast multiple combat buffs (across all my wizards), multiple ranged attacks (across all my wizards) or multiple utility spells (ditto) with minimal dice investment. No single spell is cast at more than 3 dice unless I deem it necessary to do so.

I think High Magic serves the metagame far better than beasts on a level 4. A spell like Vauls cast turn 1 can remove that Grey Seer's powerscroll and save over 400 points of your units. It can muck up enemy battle plans with amazing skill and is enough of a threat that an enemy will seek to retain dice for it. If he does so, you bomb hit at range with raw firepower. If in CC, you get your great combat buffs off.

Its about having the support wizards provide the redundancy High lacks and using the level 4 to dictate which spells go off and when.

How well will it work? No idea. I'm hoping to field test it soon.

[Nuthromil]

I hope that you'll post up some detail on your field tests? I know I've shamelessly copied your archmage/death-prince setup in my games at 2,500 points, and I'm always willing to copy someone else's ideas if they work!

I think with the setup you've listed, what I'd probably miss most is the death sniping spells the RGOH prince normally has. You've got the various direct damage spells that can hit warmachines, you've got buff spells that can hurt monsters, and you can disarm characters via spells like Vaul's, but I've found the RGOH prince's ability to reach out and Spirit Leech characters to death to be a real game changer. Given that he's often doing things like removing the enemy archmage from the game early on, he removes a lot of the randomly devastating events magic can inflict on me very early in the game, allowing the superior quality of my infantry to wear down the enemy.

The magic user build you've listed above doesn't bring any of that ability to snipe with it, which makes me nervous; on the other hand, I'd say that in at least 50% of my games, I find myself wishing that I had a magic missile spell or two handy beyond the basic fireball available from the Ruby Ring. There are always targets out there that feel like they just deserve to embrace the Fury of Khaine face-first, and it can be a great way to remove distracting targets that you don't want to waste a charge on, or are difficult to shoot with archers. I also find myself occasionally wishing I had a good stat-buff spell for use in situations where I need to boost one of my units rather than hexing an enemy unit, without trying to meet what feels like a high casting cost via the Mindrazor.

So, more concisely: your new magic user breakdown is very different to the previous one. Please post some results so I can decide whether to copy you or not

[Ptolemy]

I'm finding that my Death RGoH Prince was good, but lacked reliability.

Most enemy characters worth picking off (Level 4s, BSBs) typically have either a solid ward save or are relatively high LD. In addition, without other adequate ranged threats in my arsenal (my level 4 being Shadow) I found wise enemy players would stop the sniping spells (which would require a 3 dice cast at minimum to get off in the first place) knowing full well that my only other threat at range was Pit.

Pit is amazing...but is also unreliable. Alot of things have to go right for Pit to be devastating (get the spell off, roll a hit, have a juicy target, ensure your foe doesn't dispel it.

I tried Wyssan's instead recently and found that even though I can't snipe enemies, I can (for the same dice cost) turn one of my units into a very mean thing indeed. On Phoenix Guard, it was amazing. My RGoH prince became Str 7 (with Razor Standard had -5 to armor) while my PGs became 1 attack swordmasters with T4 and 4+ward saves. The unit tore up an enemy sword'n'board grave guard unit like no one's business.

Throwing it on basic spears makes them an elite worthy unit with 16-21 attacks at Str 4.

I've often been critical of Life because it doesn't help HEs kill things, it just makes us less difficult to kill in return. Wyssans, admittedly not to the same degree, does both.

Flaming Sword remains the single best buff in the game (for its casting cost) IMO for CC. +1 to the wound roll has many devious applications. Flaming and Magical at the same time is great.

I'll certainly let everyone know how it goes.

[Flame of the Asuryan]

@Spell Archer: In my cavalry and combat orientated list, he sometimes is.

[SpellArcher]

He certainly has enough spells. Do you find the defence enough? Are Drain and Flames any good at all for this?