Ban on magic

Discuss your tactics for the 8th Ed army book here.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Post Reply
Message
Author
Leraldor
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Ban on magic

#1 Post by Leraldor »

hey guys,

just to put you guys in the picture, I play witha group of 3 friends. I play High Elves, and my friends play Dwarves, O&G and Lizardmen. To be honest I would consider these friendly games as we do not keep a chart or league of who has won X amount of times etc.

Last week the lizardmen battered the dwarves and last night I completely decimated the O&G. However, a dispute has arisen in the ranks due to the nature of magic. In both games my friends Slann and my lvl 4 Archmage both picked the lore of Life, and as you've guessed, used a combo of spells culminating in deadly uses of the Dwellers Below to destory troops. The O&G and the Dwarf player want the Dwellers spell and the Pit of Shades banned due to the fact they can destory and entire unit at once.

Now I can understand why they are upset. In both games the dwellers spell was killing off an average of 7-12 troops per spell, and as we all know loosing alot of troops in one go is disheartening.

My counter argument to this is 2 fold:

1. In both games the Dwarven player and the O&G fielded uber powerful characters/Units. The Dwarven player put out the Anvil of Doom and the O&G player fielded Grimgor Ironhide, who IMO can chew through High Elves like I do a Pizza after getting drunk. I have Teclis but out of repect for my friends I havent put him on the field yet.

2. The point value that the spells destroy arent great. I killed maybe 80 points of a unit per Dwellers spell, while a single cannonball can destroy a dragon or stegadon worth over 400 points in one shot. The O&G player also put out an Arachnorock Spider which is stupidly powerful and it took 3 units charging it at once to kill it off last night.

So the real question of this thread are:
Do you feel if we were to ban these spells then they must sacrifice unit/characters that are overpowered?

what are your general feelings on this subject in general? Do people really complain that much if Dwellers and Pits are used or are do you think they finally realise we can beat them effectively and do not like it?

thanks for listening to my rant but this really got to me last night and tainted a impressive tactical battle for me.

all the best

Leraldor
Leraldor

"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"

Loves Warhammer fantasy gaming but takes his nerdyness to a new limit by being a Larper.
Csjarrat
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#2 Post by Csjarrat »

dont ban it, if they want to get all-comp on magic then use ETC rules. the spells are there for a reason- to keep massive units in check!
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
Leraldor
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#3 Post by Leraldor »

yeh see Thats was my arguement.

His main unit was a 45 Black Orc Horde with Grimgor in there. I felt my only option was to blast it with magic unit it met my 40 LSG horde. By the time it got there he only had 15 left.

My Dwarvf player friend usually deploys 40 Longbeard Horde each game. I feel if your going to to have "death stars" on the board then everything is fair game to destory it.
Leraldor

"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"

Loves Warhammer fantasy gaming but takes his nerdyness to a new limit by being a Larper.
Csjarrat
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#4 Post by Csjarrat »

Definitely. I play mainly empire, if it wasn't for my cheap artillery keeping gobbo hordes in check, I'd lose every game. Magic is there to balance it out. Tell them if they want to ban the killer spells, then you have to ban death star units
an interesting variation on my usual playstyle, which is 'charge forward, forward for the love of khaine, we can fight better than any of them and they can't shoot into melee why is our armor so thin ohgodcannons'
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Re: Ban on magic

#5 Post by Prince of Spires »

I agree here. Big magic is only realy worth it if you have big targets. And if you don't have big magic (or warmachines like both Dwarfs and O&G), then big units and deathstars rule the field.

I am however surprised that the magic worked so well against dwarfs. Of all the races they are best equiped to completely destroy your magic phase. Unless you took the Book of Hoeth, in which case they do have some argument. Does he bring many warmachines? In that case just explain to him that your magic does much the same for you as those warmachines do for him.

If I were you, I would sit down with them and talk it over. Not after a game they just lost because of it, but before it. On neutral ground so to speak. Just tell them you feel that the only way to win against their hordes is by magic (which is part of the game). You could sugest the ETC rules (if that is your kind of thing).

Or you could agree to go soft on each other and self regulate. So no big hordes, only one or two monsters, no special characters, a few warmachines and low magic. It is one or the other. Of course, if you continually beat you opponents big, you could take a softer list every once in a while to keep the game interesting for both of you.

Rod
For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
Painting progress, done/in progress/in box: 167/33/91

Check my writing blog for stories on the Prince of Spires and other pieces of fiction.
Leraldor
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#6 Post by Leraldor »

Cheer Rod thats really good feedback.

The Dwarf player is stubborn as hell, much like the race he plays. I love him like a brother but hate him like a brother at the same time lol. He will usually deploy an Organ Gun, a Cannon, a Grudgethrower and the Anvil of Doom. Now it was my Lizardmen friend who beat him last week and the Slann just ripped through his lines and his anti-magic rolls were unsuccessful. The week before that I used the Vengance Pendant against him and caused his Anvil to misfire and blow up, costing him alot of anti magic again. His warmachines still cause havok across my army but I was lucky enough to win by Victory points after 6 turns.

If im being honest ive been playing for 18 months and can count on my hands the number of victories I've had. Week in week out ive been shot to s**t by gunlines and cannons but I've just picked myself up and tried again.

Just to let you know I rolled both times with a lvl 4 Archmage, with Forlaiths Robe, a Silver wand and Guardian Phoenix. Im just lucky at the mo as Im getting really high numbers without IF.

I can understand their frustration in the matter but I've had my ass kicked for over a year but have never asked any of my opponents to change their setups. I've just learnt to use better tactics/deployment.

just as a side note. 2 WLC and a sneaky charger by shadow warriors destroy an Arachnorock spider without taking too much damage
Leraldor

"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"

Loves Warhammer fantasy gaming but takes his nerdyness to a new limit by being a Larper.
Paricidas
Posts: 701
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: Ban on magic

#7 Post by Paricidas »

If I were you, i would agree on not taking dwellers or pits of shade. The next game I would field Teclis with the most badass lore that is left.

I guess at least the dwarfen player will happily allow you to dweller his units as long as he does not have to play against Teclis again.
Ignatius
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#8 Post by Ignatius »

Well they have cannons, organ guns and stone throwers which can dump templates on our units and do considerable amounts of damage we have magic. If we didn't we would have a real hard time. Yes the big spells are powerful by they aren't a cert they will go off, but on balance their black powered and template weapons are just as powerful against us as magic is against them! They just need to get more Magic defence. Dwarves and O&G have it they will just have to chance their lists to adapt. Sounds like they are throwing their toys out of the pram a bit.

I
dabber
Tactician
Posts: 3037
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: USA

Re: Ban on magic

#9 Post by dabber »

The problem with Dwellers is usually its ability to kill characters, particularly the enemy level 4 (or the Anvil against Dwarfs). If your Life High Elves faced the Life Lizardmen, the game can be decided by who can Dweller the enemy level 4 first. I do not think Dwellers is a serious problem except for killing characters. I think making characters eligible for "look out sir" (and letting the Anvil actually test) is entirely appropriate against it. If they are complaining about losing troops to the spell, I think they are flat wrong.

Pit is a problem because the complaining armies are extremely vulnerable to it. Low initiative small base infantry like Dwarfs are slaughtered by it. Greenskins take less damage (lower cost, larger base), but it still guts an infantry block. Worse, both armies lose their war machines instantly to Pit. Yet scatter really hurts Pit, and the small template version is not that destructive. I don't think they have much room to complain about the small template version, except for autokilling the Anvil.

How often are you guys getting IF? How many dice are you rolling to cast? Limiting the dice rolled to level+1, or making double 1s autofail (and block IF) are very simple changes that limit the big spells.


PS If the Greenskin player took 45 Black Orcs led by Grimgor, he has no room to complain. That unit should get slaughtered by a variety of things, and magic is just one.
Leraldor
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#10 Post by Leraldor »

Hey dabber

I was very lucky with the dice rolls and only IF once, which only caused my mage to get one wound i was casting on 6 dice each time to get maximum casting, and never rolled a double one. avereage cast was over 20 lol so i was very lucky with the rolls last night.

I am currently writting my battle report which will probably be posted tonight under that section. To be fair, the O&G player bought no anti-magic stuff at all which just made his attempts to stop me casting pointless.

looking back on the last two weeks worth of games it appears to be sour grapes on their part, they have dominated against me and my lizardmen friend for a long time and now we are winning they dont seem to like it.
Leraldor

"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"

Loves Warhammer fantasy gaming but takes his nerdyness to a new limit by being a Larper.
User avatar
hewhorocks
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:04 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#11 Post by hewhorocks »

I think its worth having the discussion with them.

"OK if we ban this from my list what are we going to ban from yours?" (Dont pick the giant spider unless its painted nothing like shelling out for an expensive model, spending the time to finish it and having your play group veto it.)

For demonstration purposes it may be worth playing some smaller point games and keep score for points turn by turn. A dwellers that gets 50 points a turn doesnt seem so over-powered when it represents a fragile 300 point investment in your list. Everyone hates to pick up their toys mid game but presenting it from the point versus point perspective often highlights what is really going on.

Items like BoH get banned because they represent a huge jump in effectiveness for a relatively small point value. What often times isnt considered is "What is the baseline effectiveness of the unit intended to be?" HE wizards are supposed to be top of the line. HE are designed to win in the magic phase just like WoC are designed to win in close combat.
My army http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35197

A GT in New Orleans? Sounds great where do I sign up? http://www.paulscoc.com/
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Ban on magic

#12 Post by Tethlis »

Familiar discussion. It's funny to see certain races get bent out of shape regarding magic, especially Dwarves. There was a long discussion on Bugman's Brewery not too long ago, where the big spells were universally criticized while Strength 5 Grudgethrowers were defended. Granted, the discussion focused mostly on the Book of Hoeth/Teclis specifically, but it was still funny to watch a lot of players condemn the toys that other races have while not acknowledging their own strengths.

If your opponent is having trouble keeping his Anvil alive (and yes, the Anvil is quite vulnerable to such spells) then he should... Stop taking it. I'm a tremendous advocate of finding things to overcome challenges I face, rather than trying to limit my opponent. Dwarves don't need an Anvil to compete, and in fact they're probably better off without it since a Runelord becomes much trickier to kill and thus his magic defense stays present for longer. Similarly, that Dwarf opponent can load up on multiple Spellbreaking runes (no limit to those) as well as a Spelleater rune if he really wants to try and get rid of Pit/Dwellers (functions like a dispel scroll, but permanently deletes the spell on a 4+.)

He might also try advancing forward into combat, instead of just sitting back and shooting. Units in combat would be safer than ones sitting back waiting to get hit with Spells...

If your opponent are really demanding a rule change, moderate it a bit by saying that characters receive a Look Out Sir role or that you can take Ward Save/Magic Resistance saves against them. Both Lizardmen and Dwarves can access area-of-effect abilities from the Engine of Gods and Rune of Grungni to give a 5+ Ward against ranged attacks. Allow them to take that save might stop their horrible whining.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Brian Mage
Posts: 537
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:28 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Ban on magic

#13 Post by Brian Mage »

Just my 2p's worth, but because those spells can end a game so quickly, I never cast them in friendly games. Ever.

I love to win in WHFB, i really do. But when those spells go off "Big Time" you end up winning due to no other factor (most of the time) than writing your list with a Lv4 Life/Death mage.

The same goes for BoH too BTW

I always want to win, but i want my opponent to have fun while i pummel their face into the battleground! :twisted:

p.s. if someone casts it on me, i don't sulk however. I just remember it the next time we play!
[color=#FF0000][url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32214]The Order of the Mage Knights[/url][/color]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31665]My Painting Blog - High Elf Storm Troopers & Tree Hugging Hippies[/url]

It's the Schrodinger's Cat of rules. Until the FAQ, the interpretation can be inferred as both true and false correctly
Lilburn1984
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:14 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#14 Post by Lilburn1984 »

Lol this makes me chuckle, I’m forever battling with a guy that runs an all night goblin horded army with full load out for fanatics and as many war machines he can take, as well as a crap load of trolls, he knows I like to play close combat more than shooty so those fanatics can be a pain and those stubborn night goblins can outlast me if I don’t play very smart tactics, he even thinks he is being smart by filling his general and bsb unit with low cost shamans and going 5 wide 10 deep meaning he can put his general and bsb on the second rank which results in me not being able to touch his general and bsb in close combat.

Now I don’t complain and bitch about it to him because i know there are ways to counter this with making boring lists so thats what i do make my list more and more cheesy to counter it until he gets the message (not quite there yet but I am winning allot and he is starting to realise how powerful high elves can be if the owning player wants to be a git hehe )

From when I’ve read here your friends seem to be playing to win themselves so there just going to have to take the rough with the smooth BUT you may end up finding yourself without people to play so the best option would be to sit down with them and discuses it just as everyone else here has been sugesting.
elvenspears
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:44 am

Re: Ban on magic

#15 Post by elvenspears »

Of course, if you continually beat you opponents big, you could take a softer list every once in a while to keep the game interesting for both of you.
Rod makes a good resolution and your resilience to hone your Warhammer skills are to be commended. I am competitive and more importantly I always want to be someone who is fun to game with. Make concessions and keep competitive. They will need to adapt to you as well.

Lastly, I have heard too many players lament of the unworthiness of HE on the battlefield. The tactics are sublime and intricate. I love hearing this post of the overpowering army of HE's. Good job.

ES
Bolt Thrower
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Ban on magic

#16 Post by Bolt Thrower »

First, I think they sound like they have a touch of sore loser syndrome. That said, you can go a couple of ways.

1. Discuss it as others have pointed out. I especially liked the comparing point for point damage caused by magic vs. war machines. Track it through the course of the game and compare what did more damage. My guess would be that S5 war machines owned the day as they have slightly more dependability than the fickle winds of magic. They need to be challenged, in my opinion, but be firm but fair in considering the options. Come to the table with reasonable ideas to exchange on how to comp if you go that route.

2. Offer to switch armies for a week. Give them your most recent list with the life mage and craft a list from their army that has elements to combat it--not over the top, but balanced. If a player isn't taking at least a little anti-magic, he's taking the risk in that phase of the game. What's the old adage--taking a knife to a gunfight?

I always lose. I think I can count my wins on one hand. But you can't get down about it and I would never insist something should be banned. It's up to me to know what's out there in order to field something that can rise to the occasion. Players have to recognize the mistakes made and develop strategies to overcome those challenges that beat them. That's part of the fun of the game!
Battle Standard Bearer. Don't leave home without it.
Bolt Thrower's High Elves
User avatar
Tethlis
Posts: 1917
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Ban on magic

#17 Post by Tethlis »

Bolt Thrower wrote:But you can't get down about it and I would never insist something should be banned. It's up to me to know what's out there in order to field something that can rise to the occasion. Players have to recognize the mistakes made and develop strategies to overcome those challenges that beat them. That's part of the fun of the game!
If only more players had this productive, can-do attitude =D> . The inclination by many players seems to be about how X army is too powerful, Y phase of the game is broken, Z army is overpowered. If players focused as much effort on developing strategy as they did on whining, they'd probably have more fun and rewarding games versus all those challenging opponents.
Warden of Tor Galadh
Avilyn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:04 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#18 Post by Avilyn »

Most of the small group of people I play with value the experience over winning. As such, we've often discussed what makes the game fun for each individual. I highly recommend you do the same in your group of friends. Based on that conversation, everyone can adjust their lists accordingly.

For my group, we generally find it most fun when a combination of 3 things occur:
• Most victory points are claimed as a result of close combat
• No worry of super units or super combos (death stars, double hydras, etc)
• Always at least a couple units on each side of the board that are relatively easy to claim points from

Following those guidelines, each army generally consists of the following:
• Light to moderate magic
• A couple decent sized combat units (like chunks of 25-30 core infantry for example)
• A couple ranged units and war machines
• A handful of small support units (small units of cav, scouts, eagles, etc)
• A dangerous centerpiece unit (a medium to large sized cav unit, scary monster, etc)

Better generalship will almost always win a game with that setup on both sides of the table. Occasionally the dice might win (or lose) the game, but most people would rather lose to dice than to army list creation. The big benefit of this setup is that no matter what your opponents bring (with in those guidelines at least) you are guaranteed to have close, interesting games.

This setup is not for everyone of course. :)
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34690]Avilyn's High Elves[/url]
Lord Endorin
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:16 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#19 Post by Lord Endorin »

Your friends should be finding new ways to defeat you, not trying to stop you taking powerful magic. I play aganist Empire and Dwarves a lot and each game their warmachines pound the hell out of my army. Magic is the only way to even the playing field IMO.

I'd talk to your friends and ask them what they'd stop taking. Personally I'd refuse taking something so important for my army, then again my friends know that I need something like magic to even it out and so they'd never ask me to stop taking PSoX or Pit of Shades even when they have just taking a beating. Plus they find it funny when my expensive Archmage with BoH gets sucked into the realm of chaos or explodes and takes out the regiment he is attached to. :)

We tend to play more for the game, not for the win.
User avatar
Original Dragon Prince
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: caledor (louisiana, u.s.)

Re: Ban on magic

#20 Post by Original Dragon Prince »

I agree that big magic is justified against armies with heavy warmachines. Magic is our army's answer to warmachines and deathstars. Also, it's not like magic is that safe to use barring Teclis anyway. I've hade games where an Archmage has killed maybe 5 infantry models because he either blew himself up or rolled horribly.
Warhammer, at it's core, is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. As long as all choices in an army book fall under these categories, with their inherent strengths and weaknesses, there is balance. Imbalance occurs when the designers make a Rock that is immune to Paper. Daemon Princes, Ironblasters, etc.
KJSparkz
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:45 pm
Location: Mullingar Ireland
Contact:

Re: Ban on magic

#21 Post by KJSparkz »

Plenty of good advice given here already. Heres my few cents worth.

Try bringing up a rough list of Win/loss/draw for each player for the last 12 months as a starting point,it lets everybody see that a few recent victories for the Lizzie and HE players is only natural by the law of averages.

Next maybe discuss each person's typical lists and list building also typical tactics used by each player in games too.
It sounds to me like the Dwarf player is very predictable in what he brings and how he uses it so that each of his opponents now know what he will have before armies are put on the table.Pointing out different tweaks to lists to counter the likes of magic/hordes/warmachines should help everybody to better survive against those tactics.If you dont adapt and overcome you eventually continually get beaten.

Just for fun but if all else fails and the Dwarf player lives up to their Army traits,assuming you play 3k points use Teclis and AM seerstaff with Lore of Metal against your Dwarf friend and devastate his high T high AS troops with Plague of rust and Enchanted Blades of Aiban and shoot him to bits from long range with Archers,seaguard and RBTs while Searing Dooming his war machines on the higher level just to make a point.

As for the O&G player use High magic multi caster Flames of the Phoenix on their hordes and watch them drop like flies. I'm sure there wont be any complaints about your use of Dwellers or Pit of Shades any more.
[i]The Dark is generous, and it is patient and it always wins; but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.................[/i]
jwg20
Posts: 633
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:50 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Ban on magic

#22 Post by jwg20 »

Sounds to me like your opponents are very competitive. If I am correct in this assessment, I would simply point out to them that playing against your magic-heavy death spells is only getting them accustomed to tournament play. Do they really think they can complain to tourney organizers about those spells? Or do they think they are not likely to face that sort of thing in a tourney? If you are in a competitive group of people, anything that is fair-game in tourneys should be fair game in your group play to get everyone accustomed to that type of competitive play and make everyone a better general. That's how my game group does it anyway.
Link to my YouTube Channel:
Image
User avatar
Marinero
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:02 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#23 Post by Marinero »

Banning any single part of the game or an army would be imbalancing. If your friends want to limit magic, then you have to limit warmachines, shooting, unit size, certain items/combos, etc.. And you will never get the end of it.

The best way would be to use a system that is designed to balance the game across the board - I would recommend that you try ETC rules or another similar system. I hear that in Australia they also have some comped events, which limit magic - you may look on the forums..
Leraldor
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Re: Ban on magic

#24 Post by Leraldor »

just to give everyone an update:

we have sat down and discussed the situation and thanks to the reasoned arguement I have presented to them, no rules are going to change.

It would appear as much as they want me to stop blowing them up with magic they arent going to risk losing warmachines/death stars from their sides lol

I just want to say a big thanks to everyone who contributed to this subject. You really helped me with my side of the arguement and I dont think I would have convinced them to allow me to continued the way I play without you.

Many thanks :D
Leraldor

"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"

Loves Warhammer fantasy gaming but takes his nerdyness to a new limit by being a Larper.
Post Reply